Will Cain Country - A Conversation with ESPN Legend Bob Ley

Episode Date: September 27, 2024

On the Friday sports episode on The Will Cain Show, Will sits down with the former Host of Outside The Lines and co-host of SportsCenter on ESPN, Bob Ley. Will and Bob reminisce on their times at ESPN together, as Bob shed light on what it was like to be at ESPN from the very beginning to some of its most controversial moments, and where the sports industry is heading. Plus, Bob recounts numerous stories of his friendships behind the scenes with names at ESPN that have crossed all cultural boundaries from Chris Berman to Keith Olbermann. Plus, Week 5 of "Will Versus The Experts." Will has crushed the experts so far. Can he compete with an ESPN legend? Tell Will what you thought by emailing [e-mail] Subscribe to The Will Cain Show on YouTube here: Watch The Will Cain Show! Follow Will on Twitter: @WillCain Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

For a limited time at McDonald's, enjoy the tasty breakfast trio. Your choice of chicken or sausage McMuffin or McGrittles with a hash brown and a small iced coffee for $5.00 plus tax. Available until 11 a.m. at participating McDonald's restaurants. Price excludes flavored iced coffee and delivery. Big conversation. Big day. with the general. ESPN legend, Bobby.

It's the Will Cain show at Fox News.com on the Fox News YouTube channel, the Fox News Facebook page, Terrestrial Radio, market to market, and always on demand by subscribing at Apple

or on Spotify or hanging out with us every Monday through Thursday live by subscribing to the Will Cain show on YouTube. This is a Friday edition, Kane on Sports,

and we break down what's going on in the world of sports. But today, it's a little deeper, it's a little more meta. It's about sports and media, sports, and culture. It's a lot like the former show at ESPN Outside the Lines

because I'm going to be joined by the general of Outside the Lines. Bob Lee. Bob Lee is an ESPN legend. He was there from day one. When I joined ESPN in 2015, Bob was one of the people that kind of, if not took me under his wing, welcomed me in. He brought me in to Outside the Lines.

He brought me in to doing stuff with the unit. at E-60. And he became a friend. I would talk to Bob behind the scenes, outside the cubicles, talk about sports, talk about the world, talk about politics. And he's somebody I just, I respect on all of those topics. And so I was excited when he said yes. And it went a lot longer than I thought it would.

We talked about ESPN. We talk about Keith Alberman. I make him play the role of expert in another edition of Will versus the experts as we make our picks for this weekend in college football and the NFL. Here is Bob Lee. Hey, I'm Trey Gowdy host of the Trey Gowdy podcast. I hope you will join me every Tuesday and Thursday as we navigate life together and hopefully find ourselves a little bit better on the other side.

Listen and follow now at Fox News Podcast.com. This is Jimmy Phala, inviting you to join me for Fox Across America where we'll discuss every single one of the Democrats' dumb ideas. Just kidding. It's only a three-hour show. Listen live at noon Eastern or get the podcast at Fox Across America.com. from the Fox News Podcasts Network. Hey there, it's me. Kennedy, make sure to check out my podcast. Kennedy saves the world.

It is five days a week, every week. Download and listen at Fox Newspodcast.com or wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. The General Bob Lee, my friend here on the Will Cain Show. I can't tell you how excited am I have. I am to have you here on the show, Bob. This is neat. It's been far too long, and we used to share the same. literal seat. And I remember those days when we needed some balance. Find me a man who can speak

cognitively and cogently about things. And Will Kane appeared and was a night in shining armor. How did that happen? Because my recollection is, you know, at ESPN, it used to be the case, at least. There was a building that had a little bit of a well where the entire floor was producers and talent, kind of all in there together. And I would see you kind of when I was at the fax machine, sending in my expense reports, and you and I would end up talking about world affairs. But I think that's sort of where I first got to know you.

It wasn't on set. And so I'd be curious to know, was that a discussion behind the scenes? We're going to be discussing serious issues here around sports. We need to have some balance. Let's bring in Will Kane. Or find me a guy like Will Kane, or find me somebody who can,

articulate something that's not the prevailing mainstream media left-to-center viewpoint. I mean, look, we can revisit these discussions going back to the mid and late teens of the last decade. Clearly, there was one dominant point of view that was reflected, and you know, we needed to bring some balance. And, you know, I'm trying to play honest broker on the air because I don't want to forfeit my claim to objectivity if, you know, some of the things you have to get into so you know i don't mind eliciting that from someone but i don't want to become a an advocate for that any particular point of view some of that changed my later in my tenure we did some nice opinion pieces no but uh i think and look you're or i'm not i'm not going to

sunshine here but you know your intellect your ability to communicate and and and speaking cogent phrases on television just shined and uh i think provoke people into saying hey maybe we should listen to this i mean that's all you're trying to do is get a respectful conversation and how sad it is is that we when two people differ politically or philosophically but aren't a hammer and tongue at each other's throats we see that as an advance in culture these days we set the bar rather low i totally agree um and you know i'll be i'll be the first to to say i don't think we do a good job at my network at my current employer fox of bringing people in of various disagreements and entertaining that kind of

conversation. And the problem is that everyone seems to think that that gives legitimacy to a point of view you do not endorse. And I just don't feel the same way. I think it gives legitimacy to the point of view that is superior. And you have to have a relative amount of confidence that whatever you're saying, you arrived there because you believe it to be true, therefore superior. And I just think it belies a huge insecurity on both sides of the media that you can't entertain contrary thoughts. And also on the part of thought leaders who pick and choose where they go and why. The idea that Vice President Harris would go on at MSNBC for an interview, but I don't think anyone could, no one can with a straight face tell me that was a hard-hitting interview.

Same deal if President Trump were to go on Fox necessarily. It would be a different, it would be perceived that way, at least in dominantly. And one of the reasons I'm on the edge of my seat wondering if 60 minutes is going to score these two interviews. for an upcoming broadcast so we can see some some questioning of both candidates but and a part of the problem is you know the people that on the right get conflated with president trump who has a lot to be unhappy about the way he's got about his campaign and everything else but at the same time some of the policies and ideas that he espouses you know in the eyes of some people have great legitimacy but there's there is there you know there there's this even within you see

see reports if you read some of these blogs. Well, then, for example, the Bals of the New York Times, people upset at that paper because the way the paper is legitimizing Trump by reporting these things and ideas and not cleaning of quotes or not calling them out. I beg to differ. I mean, it's, you know, the words lie or misstatement or right in the first graph of so many things now. You know, this reminds me of a conversation you and I used to have about ESPN.

I'll come back to this idea you brought up about what happened in the. in the late teens, but Mark Cuban, tying into the world of sports, I guess just recently said that the mainstream media is center right. I find that objectively untrue. I also find it absurd from my personal experience. We can talk about current events and whether or not 60 minutes, for example, would give even-handed treatment to Kamala Harris and Donald Trump. We can talk about the ABC debate, but you have firsthand knowledge. And I think you, You've talked about this on air, Bob, of, you know, it's objectively untrue, and it was untrue at ESPN. And it's, you know, you try, you open a Pandora's box when you talk about this.

You're talking about, for example, what you want to talk about here is something that's seven or eight, nine years in the past. And it's not the product of any great design, conspiracy, you know, any, any left-wing cabal that is trying to poison. in the well of media thought. But it's a, you know, as I said in an open meeting a number of years ago, here's a network centered in New England, populated to a large extent by people who were very bright but went to northeastern colleges or elite colleges. Where do you think the needle falls?

And people in charge, I'm not going to name names. There's no reason to go back that far, but essentially in front of other folks in this meeting, you're right, to which I said, we just need to have some balance. We need to have the other points of view represented, that there's so many people at home just want to say boldly and hit hit hit hit hit the clicker and go and nothing's accomplished there we lose viewers and everybody else's is the chance to have a fruitful

conversation and learn from it so it's just look look at the way for example uh elise tephanick her her her finest hour a couple of months ago with the presidency do you ever think a trump friendly congressperson from upstate new york would have so much winded her back culturally and everyone's saying, go after those presidents of the Ivy League schools for what they have done and what they have done with the policies on campus regarding free speech and tolerance, anti-Semitism and whatnot. I mean, that was an astonishing twist and turn in the zeitgeist of the moment because people realize there has been a dominant philosophy in higher education for years.

And the first step on changing it or moderating it or turning it to something more equitable is to at least recognize it. talk openly about it, and not fly off the handle and deny it because clearly it's true. Well, and the objective truth to illustrate or evidence that it's true is ESPN, not unlike every other media organization. You can look at political donations by the people that work at the institution. And it's overwhelmingly. And you did that, Bob. Overwhelmingly to Democrats. I did that for how many, I think three electoral presidential electoral cycles, FEC documents because when you I've never made a political donation except at the local level

last year. My neighbor across the street ran for the city commission. God bless her she won. First time of my life I made a political donation. But when this was percolating as an issue, let's see what's in the air, what is what is in the water supply. When you make an FEC declaration, you have to put down your employer. And I searched for ESPN and ABC. And you can set the search parameters. And I forget the exact numbers, but I believe it was. And I went through and threw out away some PACs and things that weren't easy to define. So I kind of tried to strip it to that which I could. And I've got someplace in an office either here or my other home. I've got these documents. 82% over a 12-year span were to Democratic tax causes or candidates. And 18% were

to refundions, people working at or with ABC. Actually, ESPN. It was just ESPN. And And you can't argue with that. That's the objective fact. So one thing I agree with you about as well is that it's not some grand conspiracy, or at least it wasn't some grand conspiracy. And I'll tell you why a caveat that, Bob. It is exactly what you said. It is geographically influenced, ESPN's in Connecticut,

but all other media empires are in New York. It's also self-selective. The people that want to go into journalism tend to lead ideologically or lean ideologically in a certain direction. It's the same thing in the oil industry. You could look at the other way. Like, who chooses to go into the oil industry? A lot of people with some cultural and political conservative bins.

So it attracts a certain type of person that is going to lean to the left. I caveat it, Bob, because I do think it has a self-reinforcing mechanism that, not conspiratorial, but maybe a little more by design at some point. You start hiring people who think like you, who reflect your worldview. I really liked... John Skipper. I really did. And John Skipper hired me to ESPN. But I remember one thing, this was a public quote John gave. He said, something like, we're not progressive. We're just on the side of tolerance. Well, that word is the foundation. Like, you've packed a lot into that

word. And that word, however you define it, John, is undergirding all of your hiring, right? there was a reason I was, by the way, I wasn't hired to be conservative. People don't realize that I was hired to 15. I was hired him 15 to do first take. And then the climate and the culture moved in this direction. I happened to be there. First take. And then I kind of got in with you guys at OTO and E60 as well.

But like doing conservative POV wasn't part of my interview process at all. But I just, what I, John is an example. And I would say this too, John, of now you're part of. an ecosystem that is self-reinforcing it's going to be liberal without it down and look it's by the way it's amazing how folks run from the word liberal suddenly progressive as if it would not be progressive to have the opposite point of view from a liberal that one i you know as a fan of language and words i have a problem with that but but it gets back i was kidding about you being a DEI hire actually you were just like you're like a fire extinguisher under glass you know

break if needed, break the glass of media. Oh, we need a Wilcane. I bring them out that day. But it gets to what you just talked about. It gets to the essence of DEI and hiring people who look like you sound like you. And you have to make a conscious choice, which you're expected to do in the university culture, in the educational culture, in the industrial culture, like, well, wait a minute, we do need to count noses here. Well, we're not doing it philosophically and we're not doing it with political views.

I mean, I said for a while, and I told the Ombudsman of the ESPN, the most difficult diversity to achieve is diversity of thought, and to assume that someone is of a race or a creed or a color that they're going to think that way, boy, that's an assumption you really shouldn't be making. But the diversity thought that, and I would work with colleagues that would have different political points of you, and we get to a topic, who's going to reflect the other. Now, now you get to a topic such as,

the North Carolina bathroom bill a few years ago, which when you think about that kerfuffle, not to diminish the import, if you're caught on the horns of that problem, just build unisex bathrooms people, problem solved, see Europe. But like, we need to find somebody who can defend the bathroom bill. And you get your Rolodex out, you ask your bookers and your producers to dig because we need, especially with people looking at it, politically, issue on a sports network because it involved i think the NBA all-star game at the time we got to have both sides represented and you are you're crawling through the loony patch sometimes when you're finding people who are going to defend some of these points of you so it's difficult you have to make

decisions on and who brings authenticity and authority to the table and it doesn't have to be 50-50 but just the idea i was happy because i think i learned a lot from working with people with other points of view. And I think they learned a few things reflectively so that if only we would get to a situation, whatever the story would be, we would take a breath, do we have all sides covered? It's too easy to think this on this story. What about the other side of the point here? We need to think about that. Is there anybody authoritative we can find in three hours to do that? Well, you did something that very few do, which you have universal respect from both sides. I could talk to Kate Fagan, who believes very different.

than me, or I'm sure Meena Kimes. I love cake shig. And then me and everyone respects Bob Lee. So without delving, like we don't, I am curious, because you were there for so long, and this isn't an ESPN diagnosis, but I am curious, almost like you said, from a cultural zeit guy standpoint, do you think something changed at ESPN in about 15, 16, or was it always this way before I even got there? Like, was it, I don't remember when I was a kid, Bob, and I watched all the time.

time, right? I don't remember feeling that ESPN was political, but starting in 16, I'd say, it was unavoidably political. And I'm not here to say that all those were bad decisions. Like, I think a lot of the stuff we did on first take and outside the lines were very deep and interesting conversations. Um, but I'm curious about if you feel there was a change from the ESPN you knew, we'll say in the 90s or even the early 2000s, to the one where I was there from like 15, to 21 or 22 or 20. Well, I always, I mean, I kind of built the significant prongs of my career on this, looked at sports through that prism of cultural relevance and politics.

One of the greatest assignments in my life with 2010 World Cup, made three trips to South Africa, two, just to report, read 10 books getting ready for that World Cup. The story, yeah, we had football. We had soccer for six weeks, but we had 20 years removed from apartheid, for example. Getting my arms around stories like that was always important and relating in those terms. I think 2010, 2011, all right, so cord cutting starts, pressures come down on the network. Some people saw it before other people did.

Social media starts to become toxic. Donald Trump's candidacy adds an element to this as well because of just the, you take the, the curbs off the the road of civility you know the it's a very rank and open and at times you know objectionable terms and debates are there so there was that and then you get to um for example uh ESPN looking to do a venture with barstool sports um which was there was pushback internally of that because of their some of the misogynistic things they have said and promulgated about women that all came apart. But I remember a meeting about that, and that was occurring about the same time, the whole question of social statements, politically centered statements by all of you front-facing

folks, remember your Twitter account, it's a megaphone that you stand on ESPN shoulders. And I kind of tried to gently remind colleagues of all stripes. And whether they were front-facing or not, whatever you do, just remember, it reflects on this company, which is given all of us a great opportunity i mean i used to me i used to tell folks on our staff don't send an email plus you want to read it from the witness stand so yeah things changed and and i think the you know the trump the trump presidency added a a level of toxicity uh to the social debate and relevance and that's i think where the that was a principal spark of it think about jamel and things she was saying about jerry jones and and and president trump um

I mean, I can still exactly remember where I was standing on my granddaughter's birthday back in 2017 when I pull up the soundbite of Donald Trump saying, gets those sons off the field directed in NFL players. And I just remember saying to myself, boy, we thought we ended up to our hips or ended up to our necks right now. And within weeks of that, I think the president, not just his press secretary, was mentioning the network by name from the White House. When you're in it that deep, now you're a player, and you're judged on those terms. Do you know what I remember? I remember I was visiting a friend out on Long Island, and it was, I think I was on the beach, and I looked at my phone, and Colin Kaepernick knelt for the National Anthem. And I was like, oh, this is going to blow up.

This is the tomorrow, this is, and that really was the story that fractured everything. Because Donald Trump comes after that, right? And by the way, I feel like if there's one- For three weeks by the time it was discovered. But is noticed, right, right. Right. But I feel like that's the story. That's the fault line.

Yeah, there's that. That story is the one. All of this stuff happening in quick succession and piling up on top in an echo chamber, in an echo chamber of social media. Where so many people in the media, and I have been clearly of this too, I'm off Twitter, I'm off X. Somebody hacked my account and everybody that could help me at Twitter has been fired. So, you know, and life without X, it's possible. It is, you know. But everybody is so many. And I would talk to other people at other, like in a major newspaper

and say, just look at this reporter and that reporter, follow their Twitter timeline. They're making totally partisan statements under the rubric, oh, it's my personal account. It is, but it isn't. and all of that you know you're playing you want to be the funniest kid on the block on Twitter and in doing stuff you're saying stuff that is playing to the gallery of like-minded you know folks of the same philosophy in your profession it's a very insular world Twitter reflects reality no not at all but there's this narrow window through which people think it does it does not it never has I have one more memory from this time period that I want to

share. And I'm very sensitive about sharing conversations or meetings that are off air, off camera, off record. I don't feel odd about this. I don't know why. But I think you might have been in this meeting, Bob. Skipper called a meeting of, I'd say, 20 front facing talent, like you said, maybe 30. There was a bunch of us in this meeting. Stephen A. was in there, Scott Van Pelt. And the purpose to me is discuss what you're talking about, social media and its impact on the company and where we can draw a line. And I remember the only, I only contributed one thing to that meeting, but it was, you know, kind of like banding about how can we create a policy that everybody understands the rules of the game. And you can just hear it in the meeting. You can't. There's

just, it's an impossibility. Where's the line? Where's this? Where's that? And all I said to him is, um, or said aloud in that meeting was you're trying to essentially, um, legislate judgment. And you can't. Like what you're asking everyone here to do is have good judgment. And we We should. We should. But that's almost something you have to vet during the hiring process. I don't think you can go back and write laws to get your employees in line with what is and what is not good judgment. And I think we're in the same place today as a result of that. Every media company is facing, no one solved that. It's still an issue of judgment. It is. I was in that meeting. I remember it. And you're trying to, you're trying to legislate

smoke or get gather your arms around smoke it's impossible to do and it and it exists principally if not totally because of social media um and so you know it'll be really interesting when we look back 10 15 years of sociologists look back to historians and what is the net benefit or detriment of social media say from you know 2013 to 2024 in america was it a positive experience or not i mean i I always call it a digital democracy, as much as anything with YouTube and being able to put your work product. I mean, I work with a lot of students now. You can get your stuff out. You can establish your voice, your reputation, your name.

But when you have, again, this narrow appreciation or attention on this one data stream of self-reinforcing opinions where everyone's posturing. Hey, look, I'm the cute kid. I'm the smart ass today. Not a good thing. All right. What is your favorite time, Bob, at ESPN? You've got, you're there from inception. If I, if I, if I, 80s, 90s, 2000s, teens, what, what is your, the, what was the best time at ESPN?

Look, I won the lottery, Will. I was so lucky. Did something for just shy of 40 years that I loved doing. Every era was different. We are organizing a private reunion in this, the 45th year of ESPN's existence. I'll send you the details. I don't know. Have you said whether you've seen him or not,

but they're going to be, it's going to be in November. And we're doing it privately. It's not a company event and bringing in people. Bill Rasmussen told us the other day. He's going to fly in for that. He's 92. He's the founder of the network.

God bless them. All sorts of people coming in. There is that bond among those of us who were there in 79 and 80 that is unshakable. We're starting to lose some of those folks. We've been to a couple of funerals of people who are only 63 in the past few years. But the growth through the. 80s, when the network exploded as a phenomenon, I was at the center of a lot of that in terms of working on college basketball, Big Monday, Dick Vital, we'd be hosting the games

and doing games. It's no coincidence that the NCAA basketball tournament exploded as ESPN did in the 80s. Then you come to the 90s where we're, you know, growing exponentially in tens of millions of homes, adding them every year to the point by 2010, we're in 100, and 10 million homes, the 2010 World Cup, which reshaped how sports were televised, 2014 World Cup. And then the challenges of cord cutting. They each brought unique challenges and rewards, but there is nothing like, and I've seen a few of the people because of those funerals I've talked to you about this past year, gathering together with those of us who threw in when nothing was guaranteed, nothing was assured, everything was a shot in the dark, and we stuck it out. And not because we were smart, but because we were young and dumb and we had nowhere else to go. and eventually, you know, nobody was writing the rules, nobody was over-managing.

They were not re-organed memos every 18 months, as there have to be, right? But those, that's a hearty band of brothers and sisters. A lot of us are gathering, and people from all areas later this year. So, I mean, by a scotch, I would say those early days, only because so much of it is just understood here. You don't have to talk about it. Who are you closest with? Who are you closest with?

oh jeez i had uh lunch with the chris burman boomer a couple of months ago i'll see him at this reunion we we text all the time uh george brand who um uh was one of the first anchors way back we we stay in touch um good friends with t i mean i'm gonna forget but t j quinn uh investigative reporter formerly of the daily news yeah i've become very close friends um you know it's uh and and and I'll get you to one of your data points here. I have a great relationship, but I really do, and we enjoy each other's text exchanges, and despite our vast diversity political viewpoints,

Keith Oberman. And Keith at this point in his life, I think, has mellowed a little bit. I think I might have. You know, it's just, he does, you know, listen to Keith's podcast, which is performance art. Sometimes it's politically brilliant. and sometimes it's politically, but that's the beauty of it.

And Keith is just unhinged in a good sense. And he gets it. He has, I think, a pretty good self-image at this point in his life. And, you know, and he's one of those guys, when I sent the details to for this reunion we're having later this year, he jumped at it. Of course, he doesn't drive, needs a lift. I'm trying to pair him up with somebody who can drive him to the city.

But, you know, it is just, it's fun because at this point in your life, you lay down your sword and shield and just reflect on that which binds you. Okay, you mentioned it was one of my data points. I said this. I told Bob Headtime, hey, may I ask you about Keith? And you said, that's great. We'll talk about Keith. So I don't think Jeremy would mind.

I was on a plane with Jeremy Schap by coincidence recently, and I like Jeremy a lot. And he's part of your family, the OTLE60 family that I got to be a part of for a short period of time. And Jeremy and I had an awesome conversation. We were talking about American history and mom. modern politics. And Oberman came up because I think he listens to the podcast like you do. And I said, come on. Are you serious? And so here's what I will submit. And I said this to Jeremy. I come at this with a level of humility because here's what I know about Oberman. I do know that he's a television genius. Like he's really, really good at the art of television. And no one doubts

that. He's also a sports. And I don't know, perhaps on the trivia front, political savant, meaning he can rattle off the starting lineup with the Pittsburgh Pirates in 1969 or 71. You know, he can do that at any given point. My personal experience, well, first of all, but set aside the fact, obviously, Keith and I have nothing in common politically, absolutely nothing in common. But I would be curious and open to finding if there's something is I ran into him in the green room, I ran him into the green room in South Street Seaport. I would say three or four times.

Wasn't much conversation. He's usually carrying a little dog with him, you know, and it was usually maybe a grumble of, hello, hello, something like that. No conversations, really. My only other exposure, Bob, is when he calls me one of the dumbest people to ever work at ESPN on Twitter.

And he has a very active feed on X, and he is, I would say, I'd give him on about every six-week rotation to two-month rotation, got something to say about me, and it's ad homonym, and it's incredibly negative. And I have never, I may have responded once ever.

I try not to respond. But so obviously my opinion isn't glowing, therefore, of Keith. But I'm always fascinated to find guys like I respect like Jeremy or you who have a very different experience with Oberman. Well, A, it's Twitter, Will. Who gives an F? But basically what I'm saying. You telling me, real quick, if I met Keith in person, if I showed up to that,

reunion. If you somewhat gave me the, which would go over like a lead balloon, you gave me an invitation. And I showed up. Oberman and I would have a pleasant exchange. I think, look, I just, I think everybody reacts differently, interpersonally versus the keyboard. And I think there might be some of that. But I think he would recognize the moment and get the sense of the, certainly, look, there are other people that have, you know, hesitance about attending a reunion because of the circumstances of this, that, the other thing. My point is, look, at this point in our lives, we may not see each other again. So, come on, let's, let's, so to answer your question, I think there's a pretty good chance.

And I think at the heart of that, I just, as you said, respect what he and Dan did on the quote-unquote big show, the writing that went into the fact that he wrote those highlights, word for word, unless they were late arriving. He's incredible work rate. And listen, that's one of the reasons I enjoy listening to his podcast when I'm out doing my walk, my exercise, because just get appreciation for, how's you going to close this sentence? There have been more phrases and clauses in the sentence. Oh, here it comes. And it works. It works for the mind at the same time. Things that you appreciate on the inside if you've written for the media and conceptualized.

And it's entertaining. And some days, it's unhinged bollocks. other days it's like, hmm, interesting. I especially enjoyed listening. Keith, if you're watching this, and I think the odds of it is watching your show will might be on the small side. But if you're watching this, Keith, I enjoy listening to him before Joe Biden dropped out of the race because there was another current of like, we're going to lose this thing,

and something's got to happen. And I was kind of like, this is an interesting thing for him to negotiate. I'm enjoying listening to him deal in almost real time with like the prospect of like, whoa, what's going on here? So you can't tell the story of the network without telling his story. And at the end of the day, we're all packaged deals, my friend. We are all packaged deals. That's my wife.

I would guess my answer would be the same as yours, by the way. It had to be in the beginning. It had to be that cowboy spirit, that entrepreneurial moment for ESPN. It's always the best of anything. I just think, at least that's the way I'm built. I'm built that way, that a startup is more interesting than keeping the trains running on time. Do you feel, was there a shift when you, when we won't, it's negative for me to say lost, I could say evolved beyond that into a more corporate version of ESPN.

Was there a, was there a time frame when that happened? I think it happened over time. And it had to happen. You had to have new systems, new oversights, policy. Disney comes aboard in 95. They take actually an effect in 96 and corporately begin to take charge of some of the functions. But the one thing, the one thing that always was there was what George Bodenheimer, the former president and the good friend of mine, likes to call the secret sauce, which was the ESPN culture, which was the sense of just putting your shoulder in and not caring for the most part who got the individual credit. something to do and we're going to do it, whether it was something small, something large,

whether it was that show under pressure, whether it was the decision that we reached, whether to do a show on September 11th, 2001, and remembering the debate about that in the newsroom, one of the seminal things I've ever been associated with. And to this day, there are some culture carriers remaining of the individuals who have been handed that torch down, you know, relay runner to relay runner. It's going to run out. And ESPN, people say it's a different company. Hell yes, it has to be a different company. It wouldn't have thrived and survived. And most, by the way, everyone who wants to, you know, get a shovel and start throwing dirt on it, there isn't an entity in the world that wouldn't give everything to have ESPN's problems.

These are problems from dominance and these are problems, you know, of just adapting your vision to the current marketplace so yeah it you could see it happening and you would but when the chips were down the day of the you talk about jeremy who i you know i don't know why his name was the first we stayed in very close touch the day of the olympic or the marathon bombing in boston we ended up on the air together all through that night um just immediately that sense of we got to do it there's no questions asked the day at the world series earthquake in 1989 we got people scattered across candlestick park i'm two four rows in the top of the stadium when that hits we're on the air within 18 minutes before anybody else was live because everybody associated they're like 15

18 people knew didn't have to be told shit this just changed it's not a sport story right it's 35 years it's 35 years ago in three weeks um moments like that when you realize that the culture and the values were passed along organic it couldn't be bottled and sold couldn't be taught had to be had to come in through your pores yeah well i mean when not we're talking about america or a corporation we don't give enough attention to what is culture and what is our culture whatever it may be and how do you preserve culture um i know bob told me ahead of time like look i'm not i'm not sports day to day so i want to ask you about two issues we'll see what you say about this that i think

are big enough to even hit the radar of someone walking around Florida. Okay, we'll leave it just at Florida. One is, okay, this is the story from this week, Bob. I think his name is Matt Sluca. Okay, he's the quarterback at UNLV. And he has left UNLV because he says they didn't fulfill their NIL promises to him. Promised to a certain amount of money. Sounds like a handshake deal.

I don't know who's right or wrong on this story. to me the bigger story is one that you would have been all over it outside the lines which is talk about change what's happening with college football is an earthquake like forget conference sleep realignment although that's a big part of it

paying players you know when I was at ESPN towards the end Bob I remember having this debate and really one of the biggest debates points that I would make because everybody made it a little bit of a social justice cause like the players are taking advantage of and they should be paid okay okay I can hear that out but you should have a position of there

but for the grace of God go I meaning you do not know where this is headed now. You've opened Pandora's box. You have created something, and who knows? I have no idea. And we're not talking about 10 years down the road, three years down the road, college football. Well, and basketball, which is closer to my heart. You're a text, and I get it.

I'm from Jersey, college football. We kind of poke our nose over the fence that separates us from the rest of America and looks at it culturally. But by the way, Sletko is from Holy Cross College, too, which is the amazing thing. It's where he started. So he has got a North Eastern Roots. Look, if you talk to people in sports now, football, basketball, on background, they will tell you this is unsustainable. Be careful what you wish for.

We have it now. All it takes is one judge, this judge that's held up the finalization of the house settlement, as a word. We did a thing at the Center for Sports Media at Seaton Hall where I'm spending most of my time these days. I'm proud to help establish that. We had Tom McMillan in, former Olympian, and others talking about this just a few months ago. This is an unsustainable curve, except for the elite of the elite. And it's going to basically, college basketball coaches are spending their time

stabilizing their roster, keeping their roster, not losing the guys and the women that they have recruited. for this year, aside from the money. The money is, it's amazing, by the way, is that the IRS has chosen not to get involved, at least publicly. Is everybody getting 1099s on this money? I'd love to know that. That's a great point. I'm sure. And by the way, you promised me $100,000. Well, you'll probably walk away with $60 at the end of the day. You do realize that after pay all your taxes. And Nevada has state income tax, too. Florida does not a hasten to win. But this is an unsustainable curve.

And you're right to say three to five years because there are schools that don't have huge endowments, don't have alumni bases that can pony up money, you're going to be fighting for scraps and for schools that have a lot of their identity wrapped up in a specific sport, be it football or even basketball or another sport. You're getting to a fork in the road. And nobody knows where the edge of the cliff, but there's a cliff. approaching. Did the athletes seem to be treated better than the world without a doubt? But can you impose rules? Congress can't get out of its own way for the simple stuff. They're going to get involved in this.

Right. I don't know what that means. There's a cliff approaching. It seems like you're insinuating, by the way, that we're going to lose a lot of programs. If you're not the elite of the elite, what we're going to see is fewer college football programs, fewer college basketball programs. or a new division that cuts itself off and, you know, becomes the super elite. But programs that atrophy in front of your eyes because, looks, Seaton Hall basketball, we as if I was out there in my advanced years, dribbling,

drooling maybe, but not dribbling, won the NIT last. All but one of Shaheen Holloway's players left. and several, and we'd like to thank the St. John's coach, Rick Petino, for taking our best backboard player, just spirited him away. Thank you, Rick. But that is, you know, we're not alone. That school's not alone. And at what point is the churn and the turnover such that people aren't, I mean, I remember, you know, when I was in school back when everything was in black and white, you know, I remember I'm so old. I remember when they reinstituted the dunk my freshman year. And I was on the radio, and that was hunting the ball in the 72-73 season. Me and Barconi were on those games. But the marketability of teams that change like this, the job description for the coach has totally blown up on the last five years. And who wants those jobs?

Oh, they pay $3 million a year, yeah, but at the cost of what? Ask Adrian Orjanarski what it's like to throw your soul into a job. eventually you get to the point where it's like, whatever the pay is. You could do what he did. You could go figure it out at Seton Hall, be the G. You could go do what he did. You know, he goes to be the GM at St. Bonaventry. You could be the GM at Seton Hall.

I basically did walk out. Now walk out. I did depart in the middle of a contract, left a non-insignificant amount of things on the table and went to work with my alma mater. My work is a GM of the basketball team. It's with the Center for Sports Media. So it's very similar. I was sitting in.

appreciate this anecdote. Peter King is our professional in residence this academic year at Seton Hall at the Center for Sports Media. I was sitting in his very first master class two weeks ago, B.J. Schechter, the executive producer, 20 years an SI editor, was seated next to me. Peter's having a great time. The students are enjoying at my phone. Look at this. Reading while I'm there at Seton Hall working on this, you know, with the Center for Sports Media that Woj is leaving for the reasons like it's just, I can't. I can't just live the job like this. I'm leaving to work with my alma mater.

Very out-of-body moment for me to read that sitting on campus. Terrible. I mean, I get it from Wojus. I mean, Woz's job. It's just you're never, ever, ever off your phone. I totally get it. Let's stay on college basketball. Caitlin Clark.

What do you make both of her popularity, which I saw Colin Coward say this other day, so you can fact-check me, anyone listening. Cowherd said that, and I believe it was her most recent game, which was on a Sunday up against NFL football, that she did 1.8 million viewers, and other WNBA games do something like 400,000. So you're talking about four times more than what the average WNBA game is getting.

And yet, you know, I don't think it's a mischaracterization. She's been treated very roughly. She has not had a warm reception by her contemporaries in the WNBA. But she's had a warm reception by the American marketplace, witness those numbers. I mean, look, this is a culture built on. What is this culture built on more than anything right now, Will? And the answer is celebrity. And some people are celebrities simply for being famous.

It's that self-like, why is he owned? And that's what TMZ is all about. Other people are celebrities because they accomplished great things. And she has. And by the way, it's because of the nature of women's college basketball. She was there for four years. You could quantify these remarkable numbers and records. She was suddenly taking Amon last year.

People could get into it. I was talking about the very first game of the – we all remember the 1999 Women's World Cup that ended with Brandy Chastain's penalty kick in the Rose Bowl. I did the first game in that World Cup on ABC, USA versus Denmark. I was speaking just this morning with Amy Rosenfeld, who's the number two person at NBC Olympics production. And she was producing in the truck. And I was upstairs.

I was doing the game. We were talking about the fact, when did I know that the paradigm had shifted? Things were different. And this event, this Women's World Cup, would be something when the teams came out of the tunnel, a giant stadium, a place I had done dozens of games at,

the Cosmos and whatnot over the years. And I heard the crowd. And, you know, Cosmos crowds would be down here, you know, U.S. national team. Girls come out, the women come out, And all you heard were young girls. The pitch was way up here. Everybody, we looked at each other in the booth like,

this is a new moment. This tells me there's a whole new audience marketplace. And basically, I mean, Caitlin, 25 years later is, you know, the granddaughter of that. Yeah, absolutely. It's a change. It's a perfect analogy. A similar moment in women's basketball. What are you doing now, Bob?

So you're at Seton Hall, you're doing the Center for Sports Media, you're taking walks, listening to Oberman. What else are you doing? Well, we spent much of the past year kicking lung cancer's ass and did well. So we got through that. I didn't know that, Bob. I did not know that. Well, we, you know, congratulations.

Thank you. No, great, great doctors and family and support and whatnot. great outcome. And so we're feeling pretty good about the way all that's cancer-free. And I will just say one thing. If you're ever offered a test for any reason, take it because my little episode started with a heart imaging test in which a tumor photo bombed by chance. Really? Totally. Really. Lucky as SOB in the world. Get test. I'm so happy to hear it. See your doctors. Yeah. So that's that kind of concentrated much of the last 15 months, but at the same time, we were building out the Center for Sports Media, and we're at a point with the professionals in residence, with an internship

program that was grown. And we're doing one of our great supporters is a Fox executive, Bartia Chorace, who works in the sports division and as an alum, Seaton Hall, I'm a very close friend of mine. So we have a great network of people working to help our students get the suite of skills, the selection of skills they need, because, as you well know, the industry changes. If you tried to today predict what 18 months out will be, you might come close to probability this. Nobody knows. Boy, I envy that younger generation now.

They won't have 40 years in a job with pensions necessarily, but they will have so many more options, the ability to write their own ticket. That's exactly right. People ask my advice all the time, and I'm like, I can't give you advice because I can't give you where the roadmap is on where it's going, you know, but I know that you are empowered. You're completely empowered to break through. I say this. Your goal shouldn't be to try to get to ESPN anymore.

Your goal should be to try to build whatever it is you want to do out there. And maybe that will lead you to someplace like ESPN, like Pat McAfee, who knows, you know, but, or maybe, maybe, go ahead. Now, everybody wants to have a voice, and I understand that, and I try to make the point. I try to impart the need for two critical things when I speak with students. The ability to write, one of the reasons I enjoy Keith's work so much is so well written. And not that you'll be writing in your job, folks, but you'll have to make a pitch. You'll have to sell yourself. You'll have to make an argument in writing someone.

Learn how to write a coaching paragraph well. You'd be surprised how rare that can be. And also learn how to critically think to tear apart an argument to analyze where you're getting your news from. What's his dog in his fight? Well, it's a Will and Bob were talking. You know, they're a bunch of right-wing nuts or whatever. Maybe I'll listen to someone. Listen to Keith and then balance it out.

Think for yourself. So those two skills. Yes. You want to have a voice, but the first thing you have to learn is how to do it fairly, straight, and accurately. Because that's an absolute necessity in our culture. And when people look at, you know, people are self-selecting their media outlets because they agree with what they perceive to be that media outlets philosophy. no that's that's now we're just pulling into cocoons and and zipping up the tent and you know game over

good stuff from bob lee all right you don't keep up but i do this every week bob i'm kicking everybody's ass i kick danny cannell's ass and i don't know who i've had like five guys this this this so you don't worry about it if i kill you bob you're just going to join everyone else five games will versus the experts here's the five games that bob lee and i are going to pick i can hear on his computer he's pulling up his pick so he did his research i send these to him ahead of time he's ready uh let's start i didn't send you the games no oh i forgot to send you the games you're right you're right are you prepared to pick oh well now it's easy to count cards because i blindfold the croupion i mean come on uh well let's give it a shot see you can you can see there's no

shame and you're not getting it right you're going to give a shot and i know people who have won NFL pools betting on which quarter and the friends of the female persuasion betting on dairy airs, uh, quarterback dairyaires. Okay. Well, if that works for you, but I'm employing that here. You can employ that. You can employ your favorite mascot, whatever you want. We'll start in college football.

Okay. Oklahoma State, Kansas State. Oklahoma State is getting three. It's at Kansas State. Kansas State got killed after a nice victory earlier in the season, big win over Arizona. Then they got killed. Oklahoma State's had tough. games against Arkansas, which they won, against Utah, which they lost. Which way would you go,

Oklahoma State, Kansas State? Putting to the side, the whole discussion, which you never really got to today, of what sports gambling and betting and gaming has done to the American sports culture, which is a whole other thing. Yeah. We used to have to, you know, we would talk in code, coded language. A short line like that, now I'll go with the underdog there. Me too. We're both going on Oklahoma State. The big game of the weekend, really, but of college football, is Georgia, Alabama. And Georgia's favored, I've got the latest from me is one and a half. It's at Alabama. I have a big opinion on this one. I don't think once, I know a little bit about that. Only when's the last time, if ever in the last, how many years that Bama was a dog at home? Right. Yeah. I think I have a lot of. of close friends are one of my closest friends in the industry as she poured her dad's ashes out

between the hedges and Athens. And when you love a team that much, you want your friends to be happy. I'm going with Georgia on the road. All right. I'm going opposite Bob Lee against the general. I'm going with Alabama. I don't believe in Georgia's offense or quarterback play. I actually think the better quarterback is at Alabama, and that's not something everybody believes. Better college quarterback all right over to pros all right bills plus two and a half against the ravens i had dr marty mccary on my show this week he was doing some ravens trash talks they just beat the cowboys uh they're one and two bills are pretty hot um what do you go bob that game is where in baltimore yeah um that will edge me towards the ravens but barely all right i'm going bills i

I think they're playing really, really good. I think Josh Allen's playing really, really good. Pro, by the way, Bob, is the bigger crapshoot. I don't like doing as many pro games, but they're the better slate this week. Vikings plus three at Green Bay. Vikings, you believe in the resurgence of Sam Darnold? Have you paid attention to that? That's a great sports debate.

All these quarterbacks that are having second lives under the right coach. Yeah, it is. Oh, good. We have so much. We could have done another whole hour on the NFL and not even on the field. Yeah, no, I'm going with the Vikings there. Me too. By the way, I want to ask you one thing about the NFL.

I think this is a conversation you and I had. It's something that I had it with somebody. I think it was you, Bob, and it was in the hallways there on the second floor of whatever it was, building two we were in. And I remember somebody telling me, again, I don't know if it was you. You know, this NFL owners club, it's not equal. It's not 32 equal members. it's a boys club with a hierarchy

and some have voices that matter and some are ignored some are on completely out in the cold which is a little bit of an interesting thing for me to learn at that stage in my career is that is that you that told me that or is that something that you know to be true like there's just some owners that run the NFL like a handful of four or five

well yeah I mean Kraft and Jerry Jones who become media celebrities larger than any of their players certainly but yeah now My understanding is that there are, you know, an absolute hierarchy. However, even the least regarded among them is a billionaire, even if they just won the lucky sperm lottery and inherited the team, Mark Davis. Right.

What is the hierarchy in your understanding? Do you know, is it set upon who's richest or who owns the most famous franchise? Or like, how do they divide themselves in that billionaire room? Turn 30 dogs loose in Central Park and we'll start sniffing each other, right? Right? And the dominant ones Estabels himself. I'm just, that's great. How does any group, look, they're all men and women of accomplishment.

But I don't think we have any female principal owners at this point. Well, wait a minute. No, in Detroit, right? Is that right? I don't know. It was always famously to Rams, but now Cronky has the Rams. All of these are people of accomplishment. And you can joke about how they got to that particular role.

But this is, it's the most exclusive club in the world. It's more exclusive than the U.S. Senate and the College of Cardinals. And if they ever get the bomb, look out. We should do a separate conversation on who you, okay, if that's the exclusive club, who's the majority leader in the Senate? Like, who would you elect? Who do you trust in that crowd? Because I'll tell you right now, it's not Jerry.

I do not want Jerry. Trust. All right. Last game, Saints plus two and a half at Atlanta against the Falcons. Do you see what Atlanta did? Arthur Blank put himself in the Ring of Honor in Atlanta. Which kind of did he? Rings your back. Oh, yeah, according to what I read this morning on front office sports or Yahoo Sports.

It's like, I couldn't believe that happened. It's like, really? You own the team. You're one of the principal voices I put him in the front. of owners, certainly, but like, can wait a year, unless you know that you're not doing well and you won't be around for a bit. Like, did you have to do that, really? So on that basis, long, I'm picking against the Falcons. Okay, I'm taking the Falcons. I thought they actually look pretty good against the Chiefs. And I like, I like, I don't know, I root for Kurt Cousins.

He seems like a good guy. And I think he's playing, he's only going to play better as the season goes along in Atlanta. All right. It's not just a lot of fun. It just, it means a lot to me to be able keep up with you. In fact, I'd like to talk to you off air and not let too much time go by before we have that conversation. But I always have appreciated and respected you. You put me in places that I wanted to be at ESPN, that I needed to be at ESPN. And I always respect and appreciate that from you, Bob. Your voice is missed. It truly is at ESPN. It was a necessary voice. And so I'm super honored to have you today on the Wilcane show. This was the funnest hour of the week. And it's it's great. And, you know, let's not be strangers. I always enjoyed, whether we agree or

disagreed or discreet slightly, whatever, I knew that I had to bring an A game. And I love that. I love that. And those were times of consequence when we work there. They really were. It's a good way to put it, times of consequence. Okay, the general, Bob Lee. Thank you. There you go. I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Bob Lee. As always, subscribe to our show on Apple or Spotify or on YouTube, and I will see you again next time. Add free with a Fox News podcast plus subscription on Apple Podcasts. And Amazon Prime members, you can listen to this show, ad free on the Amazon Music Act.

It is time to take the quiz. It's five questions in less than five minutes. We ask people on the streets of New York City to play along. Let's see how you do. Take the quiz every day at the quiz. Then come back here to see how you did. Thank you for taking the quiz.