Will Cain Country - Cain On Sports: Brady versus Mahomes? How about Montana versus Mahomes

Episode Date: February 16, 2024

On this edition of Will's Friday sports episode on The Will Cain Show, Will sits down with the Hosts of “Hot Mic w/ Hutton & Withrow,” Chad Withrow and Jonathan Hutton. With the debate raging about whether Patrick Mahomes can catch Tom Brady as the greatest quarterback of all time, Will explains why the real debate should really be about Patrick Mahomes and Joe Montana. Plus, the gang discusses what Radio Row is like before the big game and ponders if you were the owner of a football team, would you hire Mike Vrabel or Bill Belichick? Plus, how much money is really flowing through college sports now? Tell Will what you thought by emailing [e-mail] Follow Will on Twitter: @WillCain Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

For a limited time at McDonald's, enjoy the tasty breakfast trio. Your choice of chicken or sausage McMuffin or McGrittles with a hash-brown and a small iced coffee for $5.5 plus tax. Available until 11 a.m. at participating McDonald's restaurants. Price excludes flavored iced coffee and delivery. Brady versus Mahomes? No, no, no, no, no. How about Montana versus Mahomes? What's it like on Radio Role for the Super Bowl?

And would you rather have Mike Vrable or Bill Belichick? It's the Will Kane Show on Fox News podcast, Apple, Spotify, wherever you get your audio entertainment as well, on the Fox News YouTube channel and on demand at the Will Kane Show on YouTube. Hit subscribe. That's where you'll get the video version. of all of the Kane on Sports Friday edition of the Will Kane show. Today, we have a conversation about whether or not the real debate should be not Brady v. Mahomes,

but Montana versus Mahomes and what it will take for Mahomes to end up legitimately in the debate for greatest of all time. And how much money is flowing through college sports? Volleyball stadiums, volleyball-specific 6,000-foot state, 6,000-seat stadiums? If you're a college football coach, this is all going into your pocket as well. So is that what keeps you from going to the NFL? And if you were the owner of a franchise, let's say, that's on the cusp but can't get over the hump. And maybe you got one year left with your current head coach, just hypothetically.

And a quarterback that people agree is good, but also not capable of quite getting over the hump. Just hypothetically. Would you rather have current head coach free agents? Mike Vrable or Bill Belichick. Let's discuss it with the hosts of Hot Mike on Outkick, Chad Withrow and Jonathan Hutton. Well, that kind of flattery will get you everywhere. Jonathan, thanks for starting there, guys.

I appreciate having you guys on. You guys are building something pretty awesome there at Outkick. So I want to start with a specific question. I'll let you guys, your co-host, you can negotiate your own chemistry and order of answering any question. So I'll just let you guys work out who gets to go first. I'm going to ask, how many Super Bowls does Patrick Mahomes have to win to surpass Tom Brady as the goat?

Hudson, we've kind of batted this back and forth, right? If it's just a championship Super Bowl ring contest to be labeled the goat, the greatest of all time, he's got to at least match the seven for Tom Brady. I don't think he's going to get there. But I also am a firm believer that it's not just championships that's the merit for the quarterback to be the greatest of all time. We're judging quarterbacks throughout different areas. It can't just be a championship contest with those guys. So I think if he gets to five or six, then he's going to have an argument because of the way he started statistically in his career.

Yeah. And I think he's going to get there. Well, statistically, he's neck and neck with Brady, who is a quote unquote game manager through his first three, right? but that's a Super Bowl career in and of itself. The difference between the two, if Mahomes ends with six, is Brady has seven because he beat Mahomes. And that will put Brady over the top, will. However, it's not how, Chad's right.

It's not how many titles you have. It's how you win those titles. And the fact that he continues to trail by 10 points, continues to play against Kyle Shanahan, continues to throw the football against him. I mean, it's the way that they win these games. And Mahomes had Tyreek Hill. You know, he had the flash at offense and now back-to-back titles after Tyreek is traded away.

And the fact that they can go for a three-peat, which Brady never did, that can put him over the top way sooner than anywhere close to getting to seven. Well, and you know, a lot of talk about Taylor Swift and eras, right? Let's look at the eras of Tom Brady's career, three distinct different eras. Game manager in the beginning. relied on defense to win championships. Patrick Mahomes is what carries the chief's team to start in this initial era. So he's already ahead of Brady at this point. Now is he going to play until he's 45 years old and win that many championships?

Doubtful, I would say. But just from a statistical standpoint, I think he's actually got to leg up. As long as we don't have some catastrophic injury, that's always which you have to throw in there regardless. If that doesn't happen, though, the way he started his career will, I think he's got a great chance to be considered the greatest of all time. Well, he needs challengers because Brady is known for winning during the era of Peyton Manning, during the era of Aaron Rogers. He needs Joe Burrow, Lamar Jackson, and others to step up, at least closer to his level. Otherwise, it's just Mahomes and a big gap between everyone else. Brady had a gap, but there was still a

consistent challenger every step of the way. Well, the three of us are on the same page. It can't simply be arithmetic. It's not just counting championships, although that is sort of the barrier of entry into the debate. You know, when Brady accumulates seven, he's so far and above anyone else that is in the debate that he is, regardless of whatever his perceived talent is, he throws seven rings on the table and the debate is over. And before Brady, for me, it was Joe Montana, and Joe Montana had four. And, you know, here's the interesting debate. Has Mahomes already passed Montana? Because he's past Rogers, he's past Manning, he's past Breeze. And to the point of not counting championships, I think the ultimate game ender on that

debate is, is Bill Russell the greatest of all time when it comes to basketball? And nobody thinks so, even though he has 11 titles. Everybody thinks it's Jordan, who has, you know, a little more than half of that in six. So there's some, there's some, you know, ill-defined ingredients in this recipe that requires some element of championships. and I think it's probably five for Mahomes. I think it's probably five when the debate gets very real about whether or not he's better. Whether or not he's the greatest fall of time over Brady. The only thing to Jonathan, I would say to you is towards that rival point, if Mahomes

continues on the path that he is, we'll never know how good anyone else was. We'll never know how serious these rivals were because Jordan left in his wake a whole host of guys who could have had claims to, maybe not the best player in the NBA, but, you know, in the top five at any given moment in their peak, well, not that's Barclay or Malone, but they just couldn't overcome Jordan. Burrow and Allen and Jackson and whoever will be the man in the NFC, they will be side notes in history because of what we're watching with a guy who, and I think this may be the more interesting debate, a guy, has he already passed Montana? I don't think he has passed Montana just yet, but, but he, you know, he's right there knocking on

Montana's door. Perceptions reality, Will, I think he's past Montana because the goat debate doesn't mention him at all. It's Brady or Mahomes right now. I mean, I don't hear Montana's name at the bar. Well, I know, speak, but maybe it should be. Maybe that's recency bias. Maybe it should be. That's the debate now, Mahomes, Montana. Well, I love Will that you brought up Michael Jordan, because, you know, for our era, that's always the goat in basketball. And you're right. Michael Jordan left so many wannabe villains in his path. There was no one that was his equal.

I think Magic and Bird, their profile got raised because of the other, right? They're in the discussion of some of the greatest of all time. And I'm not trying to diminish either one of those guys. They're truly great NBA players historically. But because they had the foil, because they had the villain on the other side, I think we think of those guys in a bigger light than maybe we would have. Otherwise, if they were in an era where they were undeniably the best player of their era and there was no second place, they were ahead of their time, if they were pistol Pete, right,

or something like that. We'd think of them differently. While I think it's not going to stop Mahomes from being the goat, I do think it will help his legacy if there is an Apollo Creed to his Rocky or Rocky to his Apollo Creed, however you want to look at it. If there's a quarterback, maybe it's C.J. Stroud. Maybe it's someone that we're not even thinking about right now because they've just started out. But if he had that manning to Brady, as Hutton brought up, I think that's going to help him.

There's also an undeniability with Brady, despite the controversy of Deflate Gate and everything else. And he wrote the wave a lot like Jordan did. Jordan won the three titles. And then when he came, he was the villain because I love Michael Jordan. Then I hated him because I love Shaq and Penny. You know, there is a wave with Mahomes. I don't know if Mahomes is a villain. or if he will be. I don't, he's just not viewed that same way. And there's no controversy,

but Brady has the undeniable greatness about him that even if you hated the dude, there's a respect level there. You bend the knee to Tom Brady. And there also, you mentioned Montana, it's an era. It's like, do you remember Joe Montana playing at his peak, at his greatness? Because if you don't, you automatically, like Chad said, you're going to Jordan, not LeBron. I think it's just what you view and what you witness versus. is what you've heard about. And there is a difference there. And I think Mahomes is bridging both. Brady did too, but Mahomes is bridging both where he's played against Brady. And again, the head-to-head loss. He's also playing against everybody that's trying to take his spot and no one can.

So to clarify, we're all on the same page that Brady is the greatest of all time. We're anticipating when that debate gains legitimacy when Mahomes enters that conversation. It's out there in the future. But I hadn't considered this debate until the three of us ended up talking in Hutton. I hear you. You think Mahomes has surpassed Montana. And I'm sitting here trying to think through it. Mahomes is 3 and 1 in Super Bowls. Montana's 4 and 0 in Super Bowls.

Chad, where are you on that? Do you think Mahomes has already passed Montana? I don't. I give the nod to Montana right now. But I'm also clearly seeing that he's going to pass him, right? Eventually, by the end of his career, we can all see what's happening, what could happen in the future three years from now he's probably going to pass montana i i'm a historian so i always default to what i've seen and what i know and not what is unseen and unknown when it comes to

sport i've seen montana's entire career there's no debating what he was able to do there's no debating the cool calm collected nature of joe montana there's no debating the guy making a joke about john candy before marching down the field for a touchdown win a touchdown to win the super Bowl and a pass to John Taylor and cracking jokes in the huddle, we saw Tom Brady's career, right, and how cool he was in the biggest moments and how fiery he was with his team when they needed it. Also, we're seeing it with Patrick Mahomes, but we still haven't seen the whole story yet. So I give the nod to Joe Montana right now, but we're going to see it, right? If I'm projecting, I think we will see it and he will pass him. And we're seeing this from

Mahomes. Let me put this, you guys may have seen this this week. This blue, my mind. So I was at the game. I know you guys were in Las Vegas for Super Bowl week. There was video going around from the game of the refs talking about that final, it was a third and four play for the San Francisco 49ers, and one of the refs was like, oh, this is the biggest play of the game because you can't give the ball back to Mahomes. We all understand like just that emotion. Don't give the ball back to Mahomes. But a guy named Neil Payne put this out. Since 2001, there have been 125 game-winning drive opportunities, down by seven or less and you have the ball, how much do you convert that into a win? And I believe in the league,

it was under 40% conversion, where a Super Bowl, where a quarterback turned that into a game-winning drive. Brady was 46%. He was something like 7 of 15. Breeze was 50%. He was 3 of 6. And so far in his career, Mahomes is 7 for 7 in those opportunities. So that thing that we feel and the thing that the ref knows is real. If he has the ball, the Chiefs win. With whoever else is around him. You know, like Tyreek Hill is in Miami. He has six fewer touchdowns than the rest of the Chiefs wide receivers combined over the last two years. That is crazy to consider and knowing what the Chiefs have accomplished. And Chad, just going back to that you want the ball in Mahom's hands, I mean, there is a, there's a, there's a, a, a

wagger to it, but there's also just the next level that no one else can get. Will, you just mentioned some of the great quarterbacks, period. You know, just going through all these, all these numbers. I mean, Mahomes is better because he's just better. Yeah, and I can't wait to see that that stats ridiculous, by the way, Will, that you just threw out there. And it shows his greatness in the biggest moments. But going back to Brady and the eras for Brady, you know, from Dion Branch to Randy to Randy Moss to Gronk and Edelman. He had a different cast of characters and past catchers. I can't wait to see

what's after Travis Kelsey, right? We're seeing what's after Tyree Kill very early in his career. Who's the next Travis Kelsey? Because we know, even if he's not as great as Kelsey, Mahomes is going to turn a tight end into his favorite target and he's going to be very good and elevated because of Mahomes. Is he going to have two big eras of success in Super Bowls? Is he going to have three like Brady? But seeing that next turnover, I think their first round pick is going to be a receiver. Does that receiver become Randy Moss and what Randy Moss was in that one great season that the Patriots had offensively where they go undefeated and eventually lose the Giants in the Super Bowl? What do

those eras look like for Mahomes? It's fascinating to me and what's next for him. We saw what's next after Hill. What's after that? And it's scary for the rest of the league because you could argue that offensively this is probably one of the worst teams that Mahomes will have. I mean, he has Kelsey, but wide receiver-wise, I think you're right. It's only going to get better through free agency or through the draft. He'll have better wide receivers, so good luck, NFL. Hey, I mentioned it, or Hutton, you mentioned you brought up the name C.J. Stroud. And I said, you guys were in Las Vegas for the week of the Super Bowl.

And you got C.J. Stroud. You guys got a lot of awesome guests. You had C.J. Stroud. You had Sean Merriman. You had Greg Olson. You were on Radio Row. I've done then the Will Kane show on ESPN from Radio Row

Tell me what was the experience like You know you're sitting there And your producers are just grabbing these dudes As they're walking by was that pre-booked? Like what's the A lot of people don't appreciate it's like a convention center Usually Radio Row It's actually like this big cavernous building

With shows scattered out everywhere And people meandering through the aisles And then producers hustling around Hey will you hop on a hop mic you know, how did it go? Radio Row at Super Bowl? A lot of it was just pre-booked. And this is for the first time and what, well, the last three times we've been, Chad.

We're not peons anymore, Will. I mean, we're not the local market sitting there watching the larger market or the larger shows. Finally, we're not peop everything. Because a lot of times the guests will come through and they already have their schedule. And you're more or less going up to the handler that you know over the years and just begging for five minutes or a walk-and-talk, right? That's what we were doing, and because of Fox and Outkick, we don't have to do that, thankfully. And the guest list this year was tremendous. So we loved it.

And you mentioned CJ. CJ was my favorite guest of the group because we got to know what he was and what he is behind the scenes. So my first Super Bowl experience was at the end of 2005 season in Detroit, right? That great Super Bowl host, Detroit, was my first Super Bowl experience. And I was a producer. I was the guy walking around trying to secure a guest on Radio Row. I think we started on Monday or Tuesday. The first guest I ever booked was Rob Schneider, the comedian, former S&L cast member.

All right. Rob Schneider, someone threw a football down. It was at the GM place, GM center, whatever it is, and there was like this oval walkway above the radio stations. Someone threw a football down for Rob Schneider to sign. He signs it and he attempts to punt the ball back up to the fan. And it goes right off the side of his foot and drills a radio host. the side of the face. It was one the funniest things I ever saw. No one else saw it. Just if you were there on Radio Row, you saw it. I say that to illustrate the fact now, cameras would have picked

that up everywhere. It was no longer Radio Row. It's streaming row. I bet 25% of the people there were actually attached to a radio show or radio station. Everyone's got cameras, even if you're on a radio show. So there are cameras everywhere. There are lights. There's huge backdrops. It's very different in the last almost 20 years now that I've been going to the Super Bowl. It evolved so much that Rob Schneider would now be seen by every streaming service and every podcast, webcast, everything in the United States, had that happen this year. Well, and because of that, I get a little bit cynical of anything that happens on quote-unquote Radio Row. So there's the hallways, the aisles, as we're talking about. I remember my last time at Radio Row was 2020. It was

in Miami. And I'm not going to remember the fighters, but I think they were, they were MMA fires. It may have been Israel at an ayahu or somebody, maybe rampage Jackson. I can't remember. I remember him being in Miami at one point, talking a lot of trash too, walking around. Well, it was two guys who were kind of, it was two guys who were rumored to, to at some point, you know, going to meet up in a fight. And then it's like all of a sudden, oh, no, one was Jorge Mosvidal. And I can't remember who the other was. And it was, um, All of a sudden, now they're about to fight in the middle of the aisle. It was the guy that he knocked out in like seven seconds, I think, that guy.

It might have been. And this year, by the way, I saw Chris Cyborg, the female MMA fighter, getting into it with another female fighter. And I, but it's all, look, if I'm being real, and I know Chris, and I like Chris, but it's manufactured. It's all hype. It's not real. Like, it's there.

So you catch it on your camera and stream it, and it builds up marketing for the fight. And it did make me think about this other moment, which isn't Radio Row related, but did you see Dana White walk off of Howie Mandel's podcast? Mandel doesn't get past the intro, which is just, I mean, it's obsequious, it's flowering. It's just like over the top compliment. And then Dana White goes, I'm so sick of podcast, I'm done with podcast and walks off. And there's a part of me, and I know Dana a little bit, but there's a part of me, it's like, then why did you show up? Like, was that for effect as well? Like, was that all? hype and marketing was at a viral moment. I'm so cynical of everything. Yeah, it felt like a work that Dana White clip you're talking about. And look, we complimented you to start this podcast, not near to the extent that Howie Mandel did with Dana White. Yeah.

That was weird. I watch it. And I thought, is there a history with these two that he's made fun of Dana White in the past and now he's going over the top to be condescending to him and about his business? I don't think Dana would do the podcast, though, if he... That's the thing is like, okay. if, you know, some said, well, no one listens to the Howie Mandel podcast, so why is he, well, why would he agree to do it in the first place if no one watched or listened? It's a very odd moment. Yeah, it felt scripted.

It did, but, but Will, data doesn't have to do that anymore, right? Like that, right, he's, he, he needs to announce the main event for UFC 300 or whatever. Like, he doesn't have to do that to get the attention if he wants to get behind a microphone. I don't, that was very strange. I don't know what happened before that, but the, the, the glowing review where, how we say, man, I'm just jealous of you. And then he's like, yeah, I'm tired of doing podcasts. Crazy. And it did feel scripted.

It felt very WWE, which is now what partners with UFC. By the way, I'm glad, Will, you don't have a kitty cat in your background, the way Howie Mandel did. Yeah. That was my big takeaway was what's going on with this podcast. There's just a random redheaded dude that's standing there saying nothing. There's a woman next to him. There's a huge blown up photo of a cat behind him. He's going over the top, complimenting Dana White.

Then he's getting up and leaving. I was also picturing everything else around him and thinking, what the world is going on with us? Speaking of just saying in character and all that, I, I, and scripted, I think Caratop walking around Vegas is a method actor. I really, like, he looks so awful, it's brilliant. He was in the Vegas suite, too. He made it into the suite for all the Vegas celebrity. Well, have you seen it recently?

Carrotop. I saw him during the game. So what happens during the game, I don't know if you guys are there, but I know a lot of people listening or watching might not notice. The commercial breaks are ridiculous during the Super Bowl. And so in stadium, they have to find things to do. It's so long. So they have like an in stadium MC and they show shots and they have people come out.

So like Joe Montana came out and waved at the crowd and they had a little introduction or talk. But they had some booth that had, it was Jimmy Kimmel. I can't remember who else. It was like five celebrities all together. Wayne Newton and Carrott Top. And you're right. Like I mean, Carrot Top, I know he works out. Like he's super jacked and he might be on HGH.

I don't know that, Carrot. I'm just saying he's in incredible shape. But his face looks like he's had some work done as well. So, yeah, it's a little unsettling. Well, he looks like he just came off set where he's, you know, playing someone who hasn't slept and slept outside the last time he did. Like, he looks like he smells, but smells so bad it's good. That's how great of a method actor this man is right now.

Did anybody, there was you guys, an outkick, were recently written up in the New York Times. did anybody, and I know you said the show was pre-booked, so this is probably a better question for your producers, but you're probably aware. Yeah, and so, but I'm sure you guys are aware. Did anybody decline to do your show because you're, you know, without kick, affiliated with Fox? Did anybody say no? Because I was really impressed with the guys that you sat down with that were willing to talk.

Because we all know, you know and I know there are some people that just won't talk with something affiliated with Fox. Not that I'm aware of, Chad. Not this year. we've had people in the past that kind of like see outkick or whatever and like kind of laugh like yeah my client's not going to do that or or something along those lines but this year i don't look if someone said no it didn't get back to us no one there with production told us that they said no because it was outkick i mean gregg olson's a great example right and he's a fellow fox employee like we are and i think we were the first stop on his tour he was there with fireball and he was great and we talked about a lot of different industry type things. Everyone there is really cool. If you just look at Radio Row for the most part, this year, I think, was a better example than most. You realize that a lot of people in our industry are just very nice. Everyone was kind of in a good mood. Everyone was friendly with each other.

All that animosity that we see online at times in the division kind of goes away a little bit when you're around people in the industry. I know you see this a lot, I'm sure, in television also will with what you do with Fox News but it kind of goes away at time so we didn't have really any negative experiences with anyone this year. It's also like at radio, unless I'm forgetting something. No, I don't think so will. And I'd also like we're, Chad and I are in the

playground of life. Like we're talking sports, right? You can go to the stadium here in Nashville or anywhere and you don't care who you're sitting next to. And I think in large part that was Radio Row for us in person. However, I think everyone else was more paranoid, especially if you were a employee of the league or a player,

they're looking over their shoulder to see if there's some sports gambling ad behind them because they don't want to be photographed. They're so paranoid about getting suspended or kicked out or fired. Meanwhile, they have to walk by a slot machine to get into the Radio Row in Vegas. It's crazy. I think there was more paranoia about that than whoever was conducting any interview there. We'll be right back with more of the Will Kane podcast. From the Fox News Podcasts Network.

Hey there, it's me, Kennedy. Make sure to check out my podcast. Kennedy saves the world. It is five days a week, every week. Download and listen at Fox Newspodcast.com or wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. This is Jimmy Phala, inviting you to join me for Fox Across America, where we'll discuss every single one of the Democrats' dumb ideas. Just kidding. It's only a three-hour show.

Listen live at noon Eastern or get the podcast at Fox Across America.com. I'm Janice Dean. Join me every Sunday as I focus on stories of hope and people who are truly rays of sunshine in their community. and across the world. Listen and follow now at foxnewspodcast.com. Well, let me ask you guys this. I'll start with you on this one, Chad. Speaking of money in sports,

you guys are both big college football fans, as am I. I believe that either both of you or one of you root for the fake UT, that your orange is too bright, traffic cone bright, leave it out in the sun, let it get a little character, get some burnt orange.

However, I want to ask you about this. This does come from my school, the University of Texas. I saw an article this week. Texas just built the Moody Center, which is a new basketball stadium, and it's supposed to be awesome. And the previous one was bad, where they played basketball before was not good. But now they had this awesome new basketball stadium, which you would presume would also serve for multiple sports at UT. But now I just saw Chris Delcanti, the AD at Texas give his sort of annual address. and he said they're looking at building a 5 to 6,000 person volleyball exclusive stadium,

which is pretty fascinating to think about on this front. Well, volleyball is not a revenue-generating sport, but how much money is now flowing through colleges, yes, in part because of football, because of athletics, but also endowments and everything. It's, you know, I've, the argument for paying players, and I'm not even talking about the downstream effects, which I'm super conservative about, like, what does this mean, paying players and what does it do to our sport?

But the argument's never been stronger when they're looking for ways to spend it, like, hey, we need a stadium for volleyball. You know, like this is, in large part, driven hugely by the dudes playing football. You know, first off, my Tennessee orange versus your Texas orange, just keep in mind that Texas burn orange could have been in trouble in the Spanish-American War had it not been for some. volunteers from the state of Tennessee. So we are linked at the hip there, Will. We are brothers and arms at this point. Mexican American War. The Mexican American War.

And Orange. Tennessee and Texas. Yeah, brothers in arms, brothers and Orange. Well, I'll just say, it's good for you guys. You're never going to get shot in the woods. You're never going to get shot in the woods. You know, you've always got Hunter Orange on. Right.

Avoiding friendly fire. Definitely important when you're out hunting some deer. No, look, I think the money in college sports has always existed. it's now all about allocation. Place like Texas is a good example. You don't have to worry about allocation because there's so much money to go around that you can build this 5,000 seat volleyball facility and not really lose out facility-wise with men's basketball or football,

sports that generate profit for the university, right? I think certain programs, though, you do have to get selective now about where your money goes, where in the past you'd give it to the university, the athletic fund, a booster fund. he would go to the new weight room for the football team. Or maybe you're a baseball alum and it's going to go to a practice facility for baseball. However, you want to allocate that money.

But all the money was going upstream to the university to build great facilities and make sure it's an attractive spot as possible for potential athletes coming out of high school. Now some places have to pick and choose. Are we going to use our collective to pay players to make sure they don't transfer or to get some top-notch high school players here. And if we do that, our facility is going to become decrepit because we don't have the money then to give back to university in that way. Texas is going to be fine.

I think my alma mater, Tennessee is going to be fine with that. But there are programs that aren't in the top 25 or 30 of revenue-generating programs that are going to have to make a choice. And that's where they kind of fall even more to the wayside in certain circumstances. I also think, like, just from the collective standpoint, I mean, volleyball, women's basketball, what else? Gymnastics. Those are the moneymakers for collectives and NIL, really, right now. It's the moneymaker for those athletes, for sure. They're making a lot. Also, this, I don't know why I thought about this, but is this another

version of someone gave some money and said, this is going to volleyball? Like someone donated to the Michigan State football facility and said it's going to be the Tom Izzo Center? That might be. It may be some billionaire had a daughter who played volleyball at UT. It could be. Could be. But, hey, you probably also gave millions to the football program, too. Yeah. I lived in Tennessee for about four or five months through COVID. I lived in eastern Tennessee outside of Knoxville. And, you know, I just said UT.

I'm just curious, what do you guys call Texas? Do you just say Texas? Because, like, we're UT, and I know you think you're UT. So I think we just say Tennessee. What do you say? You just say Texas? I just say Texas. And honestly, I don't say UT about UT.

of Tennessee, I'm saying. I just say Tennessee. If someone asked where I went to school, I'd say Tennessee. Here's what drives me crazy. And this would never happen in Texas with, as you would call it, the UT. When people refer to Tennessee, the volunteers, as UTK or UT

Knoxville, that drives me crazy because to me there's one UT and then there's UT Chattanooga, there's UT Martin, there's other variations of it. But if you say UT, you don't need to add the K. If you're in this state, if you're in Tennessee, no need to add another initial to it that would never it would never be uTA or u t austin right in the state of

texas uta uta is uh uta is u t arlington uh but you're right nobody says u toston they don't they don't uh your utep your u tsa you get the extra letters there's there's the u tennessee i'm trying to get to that in the state of tennessee so that that's the right system you have there in texas um let's stay on this uh well it's college and pro. I'm fascinated by the number of head coaches who say they're done with college football. You know, Chip Kelly's a unique situation, I think, leaving UCLA as head coach to go be the offensive coordinator at Ohio State. But there's been several of these guys. It was Jeff Halfley, I think, that left Boston College to go be an assistant in the NFL.

It's just turned into a bad job. And I don't mean that, of course, you make $5 to $10 million a year. But lifestyle-wise, if you ranked sports jobs, I bet we could. do this right now. If you ranked sports jobs, head coach, college basketball is going to be up there. But NBA, NHL, you know, Major League Baseball, obviously NFL head coach, I think college football has got to be the worst lifestyle there is in coaching. Between having to tech 17-year-old year-round, recruit your existing players, figure out the NIL, figure out with your president where you're going to be playing ball for the next three to five years. we restructure almost every year.

It's, I mean, even if they go on vacation, there's no way they really go on vacation and don't take their phones with them. Well, I think if you have, if you've worked your way up, so to me it's the key, the key would be, are you among the top 25 paid college football coaches? If you are, you're making 6 million plus. And I mean, as far as head coaches are concerned,

you get paid to fail in college football. I mean, if you get the buyout, I mean, 42 to 45% of athletic budgets in the Power 5 will right now are paying either former coaches, administrators, or staff that are no longer there. I mean, that's where the system is broken. Now, if you are an assistant coach or you are just an offensive analyst, that is where you're doing, that is the grind. But if you work your way up, we had a joke going on show, Mike Brable, former head coach of the Titans, during his first contract. college football coach A, is he making more than Mike Brable? It would stun you how many coaches that were winning five or six games a year

were making more than an NFL coach, one of 32. Yeah, let's go back to like the super conference. You know, we're talking about it. If we're talking about the top 40 or 50 revenue generating football programs in America, let's put all them into a pot and say that's one group. I will truly sound the alarm bells when one of those 50 head coaches leaves for a coordinator job or assistant job in the NFL. If that starts having,

I'm saying, okay, now there really is a problem because that head coach left this program, if Steve Sarkesian leaves Texas to go be the offensive coordinator of the Detroit Lions when Ben Johnson leaves, okay, that's a huge story, right? Jeff Hathley leaving Boston College for a coordinator job in the NFL does

not surprise me, because Boston College is not a very good job in college football. It's very difficult to win there. So I can understand why I'd want to do that. Yesterday, we get the news that Sean Elliott, who's the head coach at Georgia State is leaving to be a tight ends coach at South Carolina, right? That's a weird move, but I think that's just as much of him saying, very difficult to win here. I've got no resources. I don't want to do this anymore. I don't want to be the head coach. I want to go back

to be an assistant and make a ton of money doing that. So there's different levels to it, but if you had your choice from a lifestyle standpoint, yeah, go to the NFL. You have an offseason. Like you said, Will, you're not texting sick. Not just seven. 17 year old, you know, 14, 15, 16 year old kids, how far out you're going to have to recruit now. You're worried about your own roster in the transfer portal. You're re-recruiting guys. It is an up at dawn, endless thing that goes on with college football coaches. So if you can make similar money and go to the NFL, I think anyone would take that, but I'm still not going crazy over this until that big time head coach leaves for an assistant

job, the NFL. When that happens, then I'm going to be alarmed. Maybe also just as surprising to me is that the lack of coaches in college who get interviews for the NFL jobs. It doesn't happen anymore. Cliff Kingsbury, yes. But, I mean, if you look around, there's not, you've got Bill O'Brien who's done both. Of course, Harbaugh, who's done both. But it's not like the top coaches in college football are being interviewed for the Chargers or the Falcons job. Like the Kirby Smart meme that we're going around about the Falcons.

That will change. My suspicion, because in the meantime, what you're describing, I mean, those top 50 programs are going to involve. Like, I read now, you know, I'm a nut, a dork on this stuff. I read like three or four Longhorn blogs every day. It's part of my rotation to keep up with recruiting and everything else. And I'm surprised how much virtual ink they're spilling on guys I'd never heard of in terms of he's now, whatever their titles are, general manager. It's an effective general manager for the college program.

So I don't, they don't call him general manager, but they're calling him something else. and these top 40 to 50 programs are going to start to look more like pro programs where the coach defers to the GM on recruiting or talent development or portal management and that kind of thing. The only difference is it's still recruiting based for now, so you've got to have a relationship. Like, Sarkeesian can't offload all that responsibility to his GM. He's got to have a relationship with those kids that are already in his program and the ones he's trying to get into his program.

And when that happens, I think the NFL translation will get much tighter. and we might see guys make the move more to the NFL. We're just not seeing it, though. I think, I mean, if cities, like they build stadiums for owners, if they would buy out coaches' contracts, we may see it more often. But the salaries are really not, they're vastly different for head coaches,

getting their start in the NFL versus very average to below average head coaches in the Power 5. It blows my mind. Middle Tennessee State University was paying their coach nearly a million dollars, and then now they're paying him like $7 million to leave. I mean, that blows my mind, the money that's just being given out. I mean, it's just, you know, it's a charity. It's an Oprah Winfrey show.

And to your point, if I've got a big buyout and I'm a college head coach to what you were saying, Will, about these kind of de facto general manager positions in college, that's money well spent in my program. If I can defer a little bit of my money, if I'm making that much as a head coach and give good money to someone I know and trust to run a player personnel department and deal with NIL and deal with a lot of other things, transfer portal, a lot of the high school recruiting. And I go to them and I'm just communicating with them on what I need to do

and when I need to close and who I need to go visit and all those things. That's money well spent, especially when you know that even if you fail, you're getting the big check in the buyout. So look, one of the first ones, Barton Simmons, our buddy here in Nashville at Vanderbilt, he is the general manager. That is his title when Clark Lee got hired at Vanderbilt.

He was in scouting. He was working for those blinds. that you read about the Texas Longhorns covering high school recruiting and now he's the general manager for Vanderbilt football. I think that's a smart way to go and we're going to see more and more of them. Oh, and you're right. They make up titles. I mean, Georgia has an assistant athletic director for inclusion. I mean, that is the title of her job in the athletic department at the University of Georgia. I mean, there's just tons of money. And meanwhile, the NFL owners just rake it in. I think there's a big difference with why they're paying money and who is and who is

and who is it in the two levels. What a dream job, a friend of yours you just described. He went from writing on recruiting blogs to GM of Vanderbilt. That's an awesome story. Real quick, before I move on, Hutton, you brought it up. What did Vrable make when he was head coach of the Titans? A average of $4 million. A year.

He was $4 million a year? Yes. Shane Beamer, prior to the recent extension, was making more than Mike Rable. Yeah, Josh Heifle at Tennessee, I think I got hired for $4 million in year one. immediately got an extension in a raise after one season. I love that. Yeah. When Missouri is paying more for their head coach than the Tennessee Titans,

that is just an eyebrow raise to me. All right. We'll end here. Since you brought him up, it's a perfect transition. Mike Vrable doesn't have a job at the time that we are talking now. May have a job in the next couple of days as defensive coordinator of San Francisco 49ers. There's at least some talk of that. Niners.

Kyle Shanahan fired Steve Wilkes after one year. A lot of people like, why? I mean, Niners had a good defense. I don't get why either. You know, this NFL coaching search was fascinating. I couldn't believe, well, first of all, I couldn't believe that there wasn't a job for Bill Belichick. But I also couldn't believe that Rahim Morris, you know, was the choice of the land of Falcons. But then I read that a lot of teams actually wanted Rahim Morris and that he had, he has a great reputation in the league.

He was the Rams defensive coordinator, at one time head coach for the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. Didn't do well as head coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. But it's just like great reputation. I'll make a couple of points. I want to get your response. First of all, that in of itself tells me everything I need to know, for example, about the race debate with Eric B. enemy. Like I've always said, like, oh, Eric B. Enemy isn't a proxy on race.

Eric B. Enemy is a proxy on personality. That's what that's about. Like, and that's the thing about all of our race conversations, it robs you of all of your complexity as a human being. like who you actually are and your personality. And BNME, and their reports that came out of Washington this year, rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. And I've never met him, so I can't pass judgment on his personality,

but clearly there's something going on there with him as just a dude, right? And what it's doing with his ability to move up, where the opposite, Rahim Morris, Black, something about his personality. Everybody loves Rahim Morris. I mean, and to me, that tells me everything I need to know about the debate we always have in coaching over. race well i mean just last week and i i really like stephen a smith but he's making he's making

a point about bianne and and being replaced like cliff kingsbury and no one no one mentions that the commanders hired a black defensive coordinator that like they they they at the same level job same organization defense coordinator that was hired was brought in was black but it was kingsbury that was the headline instead of eric bianemy eric be enemy like You mentioned Rahim Morris. If the enemy was so sought after for his role, why is he rumored just to go back to Kansas City? You see what I'm saying?

He goes from the commander. He's not good. Back to Kansas City. I think that's the answer is he was a product of Andy Reed. And Andy Reed's offensive expertise, and that's what people are finding out. And Will, what you said also, his personality is not great. He has sandpaper. He rubs people the wrong way.

I think Rahim Morris and Cliff Kingsbury are two great examples here. Right, of this whole idea of racism existing to some great extent. I think it's a myth for this very reason. Rahim Morris sucked as a head coach with Tampa, right? Let's not sugarcoat it. He was bad. And his reputation within that organization was not great with him and his staff when he was a head coach there. But he learned from the air of his ways.

He was great to work with. He was very friendly with people after that. He did a good job as a coordinator. You've got Arthur Blank, who essentially admitted fault and admitted a mistake. by not just keeping him on when he was interim and instead hiring Arthur Smith. So he should have elevated him then, didn't, comes back to it, interviews 14 guys,

and decides, I'm not going to make that mistake again. I like this guy, gets along with people, let's hire him. I think Cliff Kingsbury is kind of the same thing. He wasn't great as a head coach. And I see him getting other opportunities, and I think it's a similar setup. He's a nice dude. I think people around the league like him.

I think owners like him when they meet with him. It's no different than Rahim, Morris. So you've got a black guy and a white guy here who I think are very similar and that they have both failed in the past, but are both very likable and owners like talking to them, because I do think Raheim Morris had other opportunities as well, not just one owner, multiple owners like talking to these guys. They've got a personality, they've got some charisma about them. I think it's really that simple, and it's something that Eric Baini doesn't have, and it has nothing to do with race. Right. So I brought him up, Vrabel. So I said I'm surprised Belich doesn't have a job.

I presume you guys are both fans of the Tennessee Titans? Yes. Yeah, I worked for the Titans Radio Network for 16 years. I want to see them do well for sure. There we go. Right. Okay. Are you surprised?

Okay, if I gave you a draft and you had an open job right now, nobody does have an open job, what would be your first call? Would it be Vrable? Would it be Belichick? There's a shocking number of guys sitting there right now that you're going, why don't these guys have jobs?

I just read, by the way, that Diana Rossini was speculating that Vrable's size could intimidate some managers. Did you guys see that? He's such a big dude that some GMs and owners are like, I don't want to be intimidated

by my head coach. But where would you go right now? Would it be Belichick? Would it be Vrable? Would it be somebody else? How close am I to winning? I mean, because both guys, Brable's perfect if you're putting him

into a one of two ways. A roster that needs just a culture switch and you're ready to go or you're locked and loaded like the chargers are and you're just go because he's got the defense to fix and he's got the quarterback that's more or less what happened whenever they made the switch from mariotto to tanyhill they caught fire because they built through derrick henry and they won i mean they went to an aFC championship game um the difference though will between those two and the rest to me the league is going more traditional structure they're getting away from the coach has

having the power. And I think that's why they didn't land jobs because the owners chose general manager over coach in the power hierarchy. And those dudes don't want that. And if they do, they're going to choose who that person is above them, which means they're the dude. I don't think I don't think Brable wanted that in Tennessee. And I certainly know that Bill Belichick isn't going to be. I mean, if you're an owner, if I want Bill Belichick, and I love the guy, if I won't Bill Belichick, and I love my general manager, how is my general manager going to sit in a room with Bill Belichick and tell him anything or bump him on any decision? He's not, if you hire Bill Belichick, regardless of the structure, that's your general manager. Well, and I'll answer your

question, Will, to me, it's Vrable than Belichick, power rankings. I'm going Vrable 1, Belichick too. Of the two or everybody. It's mainly because of age, so I'm going Vrable than Belichick. And to Hutton's point about situation, we had had this discussion. Let's say the bills decided they're going to go in different directions because they believe Sean McDermott can't get them over the hump. Brable's perfect for that. You put him there, there's a culture change in the locker room, maybe they get

to a Super Bowl because of him. I think the Carolina Panthers should have hired Bill Belichick because what would have been the perfect spot for him is a complete reset where he's in charge and he's more of a builder than anything. So you give the greatest coach of all time a chance to come in

and build for five or six years and then maybe hand it off to someone else at his age. That, to me, are the two different situations I'd be looking at. But just any job, what's the draft order for me? Brayble won Belichick, too. Yeah. And I mean, we should, can we mention Harbaugh? Harbaugh would be number one, just based on what he's done in the league. I mean, he just, the dude. That's who you would have picked? Yeah. I mean, his, his record is incredible. All right, let me give you one specific hypothetical. Let's say you have a team with a very

strong owner, very active, big personality. Let's say you have a team with a good quarterback who can't seem to get over the hump. At this point in the conversation, everybody knows what team I'm talking about. I have a team with a head coach who's won a Super Bowl, but also is doubted, perhaps unfairly, but beginning to earn that reputation in his second go-around. And that coach is on his last leg. Let's say your name's Mike McCarthy and Saddallis Cowboys, and you're done next year. If you're Jerry Jones in that situation, I disagree, by the way, chat with you a little bit.

I don't know that Belichick has a five-year runway. I don't think he has a five-year runway. He's too old, man. He needs, I think he needs almost a finished product. So the situation you described with Vrable is actually the one I think Belichick needs. By the time he's hired next year, it's going to be 73 years old, I think. Yeah, he's old. And that would put him already, like, the oldest active coach in NFL history.

I think that he's second as it is. So my gut is next year. it's Bill Belichick for the Dallas Cowboys but I'm trying to hear from you guys if it actually should be Mike Vrable Stephen Jones loves Mike Vrable loves him some Mike Vrable

and the only so you mentioned the Rucini report I would love to I would love to know what the interview process was like in Los Angeles with Harbaugh and Vrable and how you try to keep the alpha in the cage a little bit

what is the interview process like with Vrabel and Jerry? Two ultimate alphas. Now, you have to actually... Gary, by the way, would not be afraid of his size physically, the way Rucini reported that some owner would be. Jerry, he's winning this battle. Don't get me wrong. But Vrable will never tap out of this battle.

Stephen Jones, though, loves Mike Vrable. And that, it comes down to this for Vrable. Do you want to have a, structure where you have a great defense and a good offense because that is the mindset of a Vrable coach team. We need to be good on offense, great on defense. We're going to win. There is a success level there, but there's also a huge falloff there. Can that be Dallas? Yeah. Yes, it can work. And yes, it can be Vrable because I don't know if, I don't know if owners want the two-year fixed with Belichick. It is a,

Quick, like, I don't think it would be great for Carolina because Carolina needs the longevity. You know, they gave their young coach a six-year contract. I'm looking at a two-year span for Belichick. Is that, I mean, two years from now, what's Dak Prescott making? Is he even there based on the salary he has? I don't know. To me, Vrable's more longevity purpose-driven than Belichick, and that's why I think I would go that direction. Plus, I know the relationship between.

Jerry's son and Brable. Hmm. There it is. You heard that from Jonathan Hutton. It sounds like he's had some conversations where he's heard some things about that relationship and it might not just be pure analysis

and speculation. All right, Jonathan Hutton, Chad, they could have had them, though. They could have had them, though. That's the other thing. They would have fired McCarthy. They could have. They could have upgraded.

I think they will again have that opportunity next year for both of those guys. All right, the host of Hot Mike on Outkick. It's been awesome, guys. Thanks for doing this. I appreciate you being on the Will Cane show. It's our honor. Thanks for having us, Will. Well, let's come to, next time you're in Nashville, let's grab some moonshine here at 6th and Peabody. How about it? Swing by. Sounds good. Sounds good.

There you go. That's Chad Withrow and Jonathan Hutton, the host of Hot Mike on Outkick. Go check them out at Outkick.com. Watch their show. They're every afternoon. You don't want to miss Hot Mike. I appreciate the guys for being here today on the Will Cane Show, Canaan Sports-specific Friday Sports Edition. And that tees us up for next week, another big week of live, Will Cain Show at Fox News.com and the Fox News YouTube channel and Fox News on Facebook. I'll see you next time. Listen to ad free with a Fox News podcast plus subscription on Apple Podcast and Amazon Prime members. You can listen to this show, ad free on the Amazon music app. It is time to take the quiz.

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