Will Cain Country - Douglas Murray & Deepak Chopra: Debating The Role Of The West. Plus, Could A.I. Reveal The Secrets Of The Universe?

Episode Date: April 22, 2025

Story #1: It starts with Kilmar Abrego Garcia, but it ends with you! (No it doesn't).  Will revisits his viral debate with Congressman Maxwell Frost (D-FL) on the topic. Story #2: Could A.I. Lead us to spirituality? Could it help us understand the deeper meaning and patterns of the universe? An unlikely guest says so.  Will sits down with Author of 'Digital Dharma',' and Creator of 'DeepakChopra.ai' &  'Cyberhuman.ai' - Deepak Chopra.  Story #3: Friend of the Will Cain Show, Author Douglas Murray joins to discuss his new book, 'On Democracies and Death Cults' and his viral debate with Dave Smith on Joe Rogan.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

One, it starts, it starts with Kilmar-Abrego-Garcia. But it ends with you. You will be deported. Revisiting my debate with Democrat Congressman Maxwell Frost. Two, AI might be the path to spirituality. So says my guest. Deepak Chopra. Three, on democracies and death cults.

Friend of The Will Kane Show. Douglas Murray joins us on his book and maybe his debate on the Joe Rogan experience. It is the Will Kane Show streaming live at Fox News.com on the Fox News YouTube channel. on the Fox News Facebook page every Monday through Thursday at 12 o'clock Eastern time. Terrestrial radio, three dozen stations across this great United States of America, but on demand, on your schedule by subscribing at Apple or on Spotify. Remember to jump into the comment section on YouTube or Facebook. Join the conversation, become a member of the Alicia.

I've got a big guest list today, fellas, two a day's Dan, youngest thousand James. We've got Deepak Chopra, and we have Douglas Murray. This is a big booking day here on the Wilkins show. We want to save time for some deep conversations on spirituality, AI, democracies, and death cults. So probably best if we go ahead and get to it. Let's get to it with story number one. It starts with Kilmarabregor Garcia, and it ends with you. That's the story being peddled by democracy.

Democrats. It is truly the story. It's not about due process. It's not about the rule of law. It's not about the Constitution. It's not about the Supreme Court of the United States. It's a decade-old long story. The Donald Trump is an authoritarian. He's ushering in an age of the handmaid's tale. And what starts with an illegal immigrant alleged to be a member of MS-13 who has also alleged to beat his wife and suspected at times of human trafficking ends with you. Lily, living on the Upper West Side, likes to read the bulwark, might take occasional trips to Canada, but always likes to brunch in Brooklyn. You will be the next one shipped to Seacott in El Salvador. That is the story being peddled. I have no doubt. Yesterday on the Will Kane Show, 4 o'clock at Fox News Channel, I invited Democrat Congressman Maxwell Frost to join us for a conversation. He's the youngest member of Congress, 20-something years old, first Gen Z member of Congress. He's also part of a contingent of four Democrats who are following in the footsteps of Senator Chris Van Hollen. They are in El Salvador looking for Kilmart Obrigo Garcia.

I asked him several times, I hope you find him, because he's not in Seacot. He's not in this notorious prison in El Salvador. Current reports are he's actually in somewhat of a country club holding facility somewhere in El Salvador, but for all we know he could have been free. We don't know if he is detained. We don't really know the status. The point of that is all the hyperventilating about him. Being held as a prisoner of war

kind of flew in the face of what we saw when he met with Chris Van Hollen. Nice little Sunday plaid, Searsucker shirt, some salted rim glasses. And MS-13, suspected MS-13 tattoos on his left hand as he shook Chris Van Hollen. Holland's hand with his right. But this has inspired other Democrats. Also, we're going to go. We're going to go. We're going to go to El Salvador and they have. And so yesterday, Maxwell Frost

joined me. We had a good, I'd say, 10, 12 minute debate, conversation. I always think it's in good spirit, but it is spirited. It's the kind of thing you don't often see, quite honestly, in media. So it becomes great fodder for the repurposers, the click baiters, the betas to clip and move. There was a moment in our debate where Frost makes the argument. And he has tweeted, he has put out that we are running an illegal kidnapping program and it will soon include American citizens. He has basically been open about his fearmongering that it is going to come down to you. In fact, I showed him that clip. But he didn't shy away from it. He leaned in and in the interview he said Donald Trump has said he will deport American citizens. He has said he wants to go for homegrown. I didn't know

what he is referring to. And I am, by the way, very skeptical. I'm sorry, but I think it's earned skepticism. I think the left has spent a decade lying and losing, and the recipe for continuing that is to continue to lie and lose. Lose and lie, lie and lose. And specifically when it comes to repeating the words of Donald Trump, there's probably no greater instance in the last 20 years on par with Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction, then the very fine people hoaxed it undercut the credibility of anyone who hates Donald Trump and converted many people into all of a sudden listening to Donald Trump

because you were told something that was not true. All you had to do was extend the clip. It's all you had to do. Extend the clip. I'm not talking about Nazis. I'm not talking about white supremacists. That burned up so much credibility that whenever it left, someone from the left, Democrat or commentator,

repeats Donald Trump's words, it's to be taken with a great amount of skepticism. And it was when he said to me that yesterday in the show. So I asked him for a source. I asked him for the clip. This is how that moment went on the Will Kane show. It's about the fact that in the Oval Office, Donald Trump brought up that he wants to do the same thing to, quote, unquote, homegrowns, homegrown being U.S. citizens, a complete violation of our Constitution. I don't want to wait until it gets to that point.

Before we move forward, I have to stop down with what you just said. Donald Trump's made a statement about wanting to deport American citizens. Do you have that in front of you? I've not seen that statement. Can you please quote where that comes from that he would like to deport American citizens? He said it in the Oval Office. He said he wants to go for homegrown snacks. People born and raised in the United States.

Do you have anything besides your word on that? I have not seen. I have not seen that. Beyond your word, do you have the source of that? I would love to see that clip or that transcript of him saying he wants to deport American citizens. There is a clip online. I encourage people to just Google Donald Trump homegrown, deporting homegrown criminals. It is something he said in the Oval Office.

He expands it there the second time around homegrown criminals. But, you know, I really make no apologies for not knowing every single thing that comes from Donald Trump's mouth or every single thing that happens in one of the most active administrations in the history of the United States. But Maxwell Frost is right. Trump did say something to that effect. Is it to reflect the story that he is peddling us? That the next thing after Kilmar, Brago Garcia, is American citizens. Well, we did play it yesterday on the Will Kane show. It took a minute to grab it.

In the meantime, the internet does it, saying, Wilcane's such an idiot. How do you have a cable news show without knowing it? First of all, to reiterate once again, okay, just to reiterate once again, I give not one ounce of interest or credibility in the ecosystem of clip world that only preserves your ability to receive applause from a like-minded audience, I think not only are you uninteresting,

I think most of you, most of you, were born without testes. And I mean that in the sense that I think you should have been, not that you're female, but that you're somewhere existing in the nether region between male and female. And your little game of ecosystem, slam dunking and reaction is not only uninteresting to me, it is incredibly, incredibly beta.

If I take a punch or I lose a point, so be it, such as the world of having interesting conversations, I'm not out here to live in a glass house or survive every conversation with 100 to 1, 100 to 0 knockout. you can do that because you live in your padded brunch rooms that's not for me frost was right trump said something like that but if like very fine people we extend the clip we see a little more context than you are next it starts with kilmar brago garcia and it goes to you American citizen. Here is the clip referenced by Maxwell Frost from the Oval Office.

They're great facilities, very strong facilities, and they don't play games. I'd like to go a step further. I mean, I say, I said it to Pam. I don't know what the laws are. We always have to obey the laws, but we also have homegrown criminals that push people into subways that hit elderly ladies on the back of the head with a baseball bat when they're not looking. that are absolute monsters.

I'd like to include them in the group of people to get them out of the country, but you'll have to be looking at the laws on that, Steve, okay? You'll have to be looking at the laws. We always want to obey the law. Three points to be made on this. The left consistently makes the mistake of taking Donald Trump literally but not seriously

when he should be taken seriously, but not literally. The literal interpretation of Donald Trump allows him to continue on in this decades-long story that we're sliding into the Handmaid's Tale. By the way, a show that I never saw but seemed to have great, great cultural impact on the left. Number two, extend the clip like Valierefine People, and you hear him say, we have to obey the law. It is my suspicion and my belief, just short of my certainty, that it would not be within the law to deport an American criminal. it would not and Donald Trump would not be able to ship even a criminal American citizen to a foreign prison and if he did so it would be something that I oppose number three you are not a criminal pushing the young old ladies into a subway you are not an alleged member of MS-13 and I walked Maxwell Frost in the greater debate which I'm pretty happy with the nature of that conversation because I think it exposes the true motivations here walked him through that one is Kim Rbrego-Garcia an American citizen

no is he alleged two is he an alleged gang member well he's you know obvious gay back and forth allegations are not proof two courts have adjudicated that there's enough evidence to determine that he is a gang member three has that gang that he's alleged to be a member of 13 been designated as a foreign terrorist organization. The answer to that is unequivocally yes. An executive order by Donald Trump laid out that it is now a foreign terrorist organization. Four, does he is standing removal order? He does. Kimmer-Obrego-Garcia has a standing removal order from a judge. He was then granted a withholding order on that removal because, the story goes, he was threatened by other gangs in El Salvador. But an executive order designating MS-13 as a

foreign terrorist organization overrides, according to the Trump administration and articulate explanations of such by the likes of Stephen Miller, that withholding order. If you walk through one, two, three, four, how many of you American citizens satisfy that checklist? How many of you? How many of you are not an American citizen? How many of you are alleged members, adjudicated members of a gang? How many of you as members of that gang have been designated part of a foreign terrorist organization. How many of you have been ordered removable by a judge? My suspicion is very few. Very few. So what you have in the end is a group of Democrats who suggest that they're here on simple principle, due process, the Constitution.

Regardless of the fact they never cared about that in the past, they never did. In fact, Maxwell Frost, up on his website right now, calls the Supreme Court of the United States an illegitimate institution. So all of a sudden his deference to the courts is his big longstanding principle. No, I think they don't stand on principle. I don't think they've been dedicated to the idea of due process. Kilmer O'Regro Garcia, in fact, received due process. Due process is not a cracker jack box standard issue thing applied to everybody at equal measure. Illegal immigrants have less due process because the Clinton administration made so in 1996. Then other Americans alleged criminals. Due process is tailored to your status in this country. I don't think they care

about due process. I don't think they actually care about Kilmer Obrigo Garcia because right now I don't see Maxwell Frost talking about the four different Tren Deiragua members who have been arrested in his district in Orlando, nor the Maryland as of today. Alleged murder from an illegal immigrant. Do I hear from Chris Van Hollen? I don't think they care about the person nor the principal. care about the story. And the story has been a decade old. Here's how the story goes. Donald Trump's an authoritarian. He's a dictator. He's going to imprison Americans. He's going to deport you. And what starts with Kimmer-Abrego-Garcia ends with Lily in Brooklyn. If they can continue to spin this story, they cast themselves as the hero in this melodrama. The problem is

this melodrama has been a least seller for a decade. It has lost elections. The American people not only support Donald Trump, they support the idea of deporting illegal immigrants. Every poll indicates as such, but they're addicted to this story, this story, this narrative, not this principle, not even this person. They are addicted to this melodrama. And if American citizens have to suffer by the continued presence of members of Trindyaragua or MS-13, so be it because they have a story. story, a villain, and cast themselves as the hero. Is AI the path to spirituality?

We have a fascinating conversation coming up with the famous Deepak Chopra. Next on the Will Kane Show. The new BMO, V.I. Porter MasterCard is your ticket to more. More perks. More points. More flights. More of all the things you want in a travel rewards card, and then some. Get your ticket to more with the new BMO ViPorter MasterCard,

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on democracies and death cults a conversation with douglas murray it is the will cane show streaming live at fox news.com on the fox news youtube channel the fox news facebook page hit subscribe at apple or spotify jump into the comments i know many of you already have on that conversation we had yesterday on the will cane show with Maxwell Frost, Congressman, Democrat, from Florida. We will continue to have conversations with people that disagree with us because I believe there's value, not in the Hegelian dialect of wins and losses. There will be that. We won't avoid that when there's confrontation,

but there's value in the conversation. Like this last moment of what I firmly believe in the end, as I laid out to Maxwell Frost. Watch. From this vantage point, respectfully, if you haven't always been dedicated to these principles, If you, in fact, have called the Supreme Court the United States illegitimate very recently. And if you can acknowledge that Abrago Garcia is not your average American citizen, and his circumstances are not anyone watching that is ready to be deported from the United States. From this vantage point, respectfully, it appears as though your trip to El Salvador is less about principle

and even less about Abrago Garcia and more about grandstanding and fearmongering American citizens in a continuing narrative that cast yourself as a hero in this melodrama and the, villain as Donald Trump. That was yesterday. Today, I believe, we'll be joined again by Democrats to talk about various issues and have these conversations on the Will Kane show. But joining us now is renowned thinker, spiritual guide, Deepak Chopra. He has a new book out called Digital Dharma, how AI can actually help us on our path to spirituality. Deepak, great to see you. Thanks for being on the Will Kane show. Thank you for having me.

Deepak, I don't know if you know this, but we have a period of before together on a couple of occasions. Most notably, for what it's worth, in my mind, I'm going to take you back roughly 13 years ago. So 13 years ago, I'm a contributor at CNN. Pierce Morgan hosts a show. I'm friends with Pierce Morgan to this day, and I will forever hold it against him and have told him this. On gun control and guns in America, okay? On the stage are you, Deepak, and so. several others. Pierce seats me in the audience. I didn't get much information ahead of time what was

going to happen in this town hall. And everyone around me is had a family member who's died at the hands of gun violence. We had a debate that day. I don't remember if you and I interacted or had any particular conversation, but I did go back and look at the clip. And you made a very interesting point. And one I think still stands today and worth exploring. You talked about this problem. One, I think you and I would both agree has continued as recently as last week with the shooting at Florida State and you said your point one was about the ready access of weapons somewhere you and I have some disagreement but point two and three where we agree is we have a problem of mental health number two in America and number three a culture of violence

that distinguishes us from other countries that also have ready access to weapons whether not that be Canada or Switzerland and that culture of violence and mental health has continued I firmly believe Deepak when we look at these awful things that happen in society there's something spiritually, morality, human purpose that has been lost, specifically for young men. And I think that is where we have to deeply explore. I'm curious here. Now, 13 years later, I see you again. What do you think about that culture of violence, that mental health issue in America?

Yes. I often wondered why there is this culture of violence, and I'm not sure I have the answer. other than perhaps it has historical roots. This country was founded on violence right from the beginning. And that was the frontier spirit. And then it became part of our constitution, the right to carry guns, et cetera. So of course, now there's a lot of debate about this.

But I will agree with you that the mental health crisis and the culture of violence, have a context that could go deep into the history of trauma. So when you are traumatized, it doesn't matter how you're traumatized, especially in childhood, it could be verbal trauma or physical trauma or sexual trauma or perhaps, you know, war, and you're traumatized, then the memory of trauma is anger. The desire to get even is hostility, then feeling bad about it, his guilt and shame, and then the depletion of energy that happens with all of the above is what we call depression,

which is the number one pandemic right now globally, but particularly in America right now, suicide has now become the second most common cause of death, especially among teens, even amongst adults, older adults. And a lot of it has to do with the fear, not belonging, sense of isolation. But ultimately, as you trace it back, it's trauma. And, you know, even trauma to your parents or before that. And now we know there's an epigenetic basis of that. Your epigenetic means your genes get triggered.

History of trauma, even though you directly didn't. experience trauma, maybe it was your parents. So this has come up in an odd number of occasions very recently in conversations that I've been having, this concept of trauma. I want to start also with something I agree with that you said. The United States was born of rebellion, pushed forward on the frontiers through violence, and it is no doubt that it at some level is part of the American experience. But, and as you acknowledge something has happened. I don't know the time frame that we should put on this, perhaps over the last 30 years, where we have these things that didn't seem to exist prior.

And I don't want to exclusively put this, and I'm going to talk about AI with you in just one moment, but I want to exclusively put this on the mass shooting thing. But it's just, I think that's one manifestation of something you're talking about, which is much more prevalent. And I do see it mostly in young men because I even think even the suicide stat that you talk about, not exclusively, but seems to be affecting young men. And I keep hearing about this, Deepak. I keep hearing about trauma. And I have to be honest, that's a word that I kind of recoil from a little bit because it's become so generalized. What is trauma? It could be anything, right? But I've been having conversations about ADHD. I've been having conversations about autism with people recently. And it's really

interesting how often they bring up adverse childhood experiences, ACEs, trauma, and the way it affects people in a whole range of ways. And so what I'd ask you is, like, how do we walk that line of understanding that? But I do think the concept of trauma has been so, what is the word I'm looking for? Not generalized, but loosened. And you could argue to me that it should be. But all of these traumas, all of a sudden, like people didn't have trauma a hundred years ago. of course they had trauma then. So what is happening so traumatically to children today? I think it's, again, can't be very simple to, there's no simplistic answer to this

other than the fact that the United States is built also on what we call maximum cultural and ethnic diversity. And when people see people, other people who are not like them, it instills fear. There's also memory of, we mentioned trauma. But what is trauma? It's recycling as fear. It's recycling as psychological, emotional, physical threat, which raises cortisol levels, adrenaline levels, inflammation, the body. and then it recycles.

So the solution is, and of course, now we have modern capacities. You know, we have capacities that we didn't have in, say, medieval times, you know. It's not just guns. It's, you know, on a massive scale that expands to things like nuclear weapons and cyberbullying and all kinds of other means to inflict hurt on each other. So the first thing is actually to have empathy for people who are seemingly violent, but actually their deeper roots are in the fact that they're stressed about being hurt. So empathy means we have to begin to feel what they feel. If you're, you know, children automatically have empathy.

If you hurt a child, if a child watches, say, you hurt your dog. or your pet, it starts to cry because the child viscerally feels what others feel. And that visceral feeling of somebody else's suffering is called empathy. And empathy naturally leads to compassion, which naturally leads to kindness, which naturally leads to love, and which naturally leads to the desire to help. So I think the solution, long-term solution, is start with understanding the complete. complexity of the situation, and then see what empathy, compassion, and love in action can do. And you don't have to be very complicated about that.

I practice what I call the fours, attention, deep listening to the other person's feeling, affection, deep caring, appreciation, noticing the uniqueness of everyone. And ultimately something that's difficult, radical acceptance, because you can't change somebody else's behavior because you think you'll feel better if they change their behavior. It's hard enough for you to change your behavior even when you want to. So we start with acceptance and then accept the complexities and then start the healing process through what in Eastern wisdom traditions anyway is called divine emotions, empathy, compassion, peace, equanimity, love, kindness, and joy.

Fascinating and thorough answer for us to consider there. All right, Deepak, you have a book out, and you have actually an AI bot app software as well, and your book is called Digital Dharma, and it's addressing something that I think also, to some extent, raises cortisol levels. some fear, and that is the rise of AI. We like AI. We use AI. I use AI all of a sudden. But I think it's pretty counterintuitive, which makes it interesting, that you see it actually

as a path to aiding spirituality. Explain. With AI, you can access the knowledge and wisdom of the ages. My AI, for example, Deepak Chopra.a.ai is not a large language model. It's what is called a small language model. It doesn't hallucinate. But my AI, the way I created it is, it personally looks at what your quandaries are, what you're anxious about, what you're depressed about. It tries to understand you as a person and then gives you the best spiritual advice, not only from me, but through AI, my access to the greatest thinkers of all time, whether there's Jesus Christ or the Buddha, or if you're so inclined, Carl Jung, or, you know, some of the Western philosophers, Eastern philosophers, we don't all relate to the same advice

because, again, we've been conditioned differently. You know, we all have a conditioned mind, whether it's economically conditioned, religiously conditioned or conditioned through our ancestors, experiences. So you can't argue somebody out of their conditioning, but you can relate to them if you access what they're thinking, how they're thinking, and you give them some advice which seems relevant to them. You approach people where they are in life, and then slowly get them to a place of a deeper understanding, not of what you're saying, but how what you're saying relates to them. You see, that's the advantage of AI.

AI now has access to more information, an individual has more access to information than the entire human race. I mean, that's astonishing. So whenever a new technology comes, people are scared. you know a knife can be used to kill a person but in the hands of a surgeon it's it is a healing instrument if we hadn't discovered fire we wouldn't have the brain we have because we started to cook food absorb micronutrients we won't have created the steam engine between the years of 1887 and 1903 humanity came up with the light bulb with the automobile the airplane and the telephone 20 years or less

So now this is AI, it's been here since 2012, which is less than 20 years. But what we're seeing is a leapfrogging, which is going to be both cultural and social, but also biological. Because every time you learn something new, your brain changes, your neural landscape changes. So AI can give you insight, intuition, or can be a means to harness your own insight, intuition, creativity, higher vision, and your desire for healing. So that's what the book is about digital Dharma, but it's also what my AI is about, Deepakshoper.a.m. Okay, I want to follow up on what makes this unique.

First of all, you distinguish it from large language models. So one of the concerns I've had about AI is what it represents, at least at the moment, and we're not talking about your AI, but any of the other popular AI platforms is it is an accumulation of information derived from humanity, derived from the masses. And so what it ultimately is is consensus. And it can be prompted to go in different directions that you want it, but it becomes consensus.

And it does concern me, therefore, that while you get a greater quantity of information, consensus doesn't allow for independence. It doesn't allow for unique thoughts, which we need. That's what drives us forward, not just an understanding of everything that exists, but what could exist. And that's the independence and uniqueness of individual human thought. And as we outsource everything through AI to a large language model, all we're doing is creating consensus. And yours, you're suggesting, is something different. We'll get into yours in this moment, But that'd be my concern right now, not over human knowledge, Deepak, but over human wisdom. So any technology, particularly AI, is subject to what you call selection bias.

And that's what you just outlined, selection bias, the way you ask the question or how the AI was programmed. So you're absolutely right. It has selection bias. On the other hand, you know, when I played with large language models, sometimes they hallucinate, when they don't know the answer, they hallucinate, they give you actually false information. I found that very useful. The hallucination gave me creative ideas I hadn't thought of. You know, I said, oh, I haven't thought of that, you know, even though it's a hallucination or what can I get out of this hallucination? So there's always something that you can question.

And you're right, ultimate creativity independence comes from breaking the algorithm. And that's why I didn't use the large language model in my case, a small language model. I have selected the material. Actually, well, the question you asked me, you can try it now or after the program. Ask my AI the same question, see what you get. And, you know, the response you get will not be confrontational. It will allow you to come to a conclusion through self-reflection, through contemplation, through mindfulness, through meditation, etc. So that was the adventure I took upon myself, not using large language model, but saying, how can I answer questions by engaging people in reflection, contemplative inquiry, and go deeper into themselves to,

ultimately break the algorithm of the condition response because most of us are like bundles of conditioned reflexes. You know, we're constantly being triggered by people and circumstance into predictable outcomes. There's no creativity in anything we do. And that includes using AI. In AI, the whole secret is what I call the art of the prompt, which you hinted at. How do you ask the question? right right the art of the prompt might be the new place for human capital for jobs for

for all the worry we have about what it what it will take away that might be a need how do we how do we interact with AI so I want to now see if I could fully understand Deepak Chopra AI so small language model what I understand what you've done is essentially it's like an edited version of artificial intelligence instead of casting the ultimate wide net into the mob into the masses of information, you have self-selected the wisdom of people that you respect. You named several, you know, yourself, Jesus Christ, Buddha, I don't know if you know this, but we had a mutual friend. He's no longer with us, but Wayne Dyer, maybe I'll come across Wayne Dyer in your model as well. But does that also, and you hinted, you said the answer is

yes, but it's edited, and then it also has the ability to, tailor advice or information to me. So what I'm asking it about my life and the things I'm considering, I'll get something different and perhaps I'll be pointed to someone different than say you, Deepak, using it. It's not simply pushing us all towards the same edited outcome, I would presume. It's finding out, as you mentioned, who we are. Yeah. So, you know, I have written 95 books. So all of that is there. I've done. I've done. millions of interviews like this one it'll go on to my AI as part of the database. So the kind of questions you've asked and then I've selected you know all the people throughout history that

I've admired and that I think will engage you in reflection. So the answer you'll get from my AI will be more personalized and it will actually engage you in a kind of a you can have a conversation with it you can disagree with it etc etc and once you do that then what happens it it breaks the conditioning we have because I think the problem in the world today and in personal relationships is we all want to be right you know and that takes away our creativity and also to some extent takes away our peace you know so I often ask myself do I want to be right or do I want to be happy? And the answer is I want to be happy.

I want to have a deeper understanding of myself and of other people and why they react the way they react. So I would say my AI is a little more creative and more engaging and more reflective rather than dogmatic. And back to the counterintuitive nature of us as a society. and there's a mix of excitement and concern and fear when it comes to the rise of technology. You make a great point about the advance of the 20th century, but that what we leave behind as we become, I don't know, it feels Deepak like almost less human, you know, as we become more automated, more outsourced, even more knowledgeable is that we lose what makes us human. Your whole premise here today is that this technology can actually aid in that as well, connecting us to spirituality and humanity. Will I've thought a lot about what makes human different from other animals and other species.

And what makes us human amongst other things. You know, we cook food, we walk upright, we have a language for telling stories. And so on. But what makes us especially different from other species is that we're tool makers. Even before we learn to speak, we use tools in the Stone Age. We use tools in the Iron Age. And we use tools before we did anything. We discovered fire. And so technology is part of our evolution. And it cannot be stopped. If I tell you, go back on the telephone or go back on the automobile, you know, you can't. Once the technology is born, it's like a child that's born. It can't return to the womb.

So now what do you do? Either you adapt or you use it properly or you risk your own irrelevance. You know, once that's part of evolutionary. Either you adapt to what has happened. We cannot stop technology. We cannot. We can use it diabolically, you know, to destroy other people and their lives, which is being done through technology. And now everybody has technology.

It's this kind of way it's democratizing access to AI is democratizing access to a technology that's very powerful. It could destroy the world, but it could also heal the world. So this is an important point in our evolution to be self-aware. to understand that we cannot stop technology, how can we use it and adapt to it in a way that leads to a more peaceful, just, sustainable, healthier, and joyful world? And I believe we can do that now.

When the technology is expanded, you know, when I came to this country, 1970, probably before you were born, I hadn't seen a television set. The first time I saw a television set was in Plainfield, New Jersey, And I was totally captivated. I didn't understand how you could see people in a box.

Then there were fax machines. Then there was email. Then there was the Internet. Then there was social media. And now there is this AI. So how do you stop it? The answer is you cannot. Okay?

So if you cannot, what's the best way to use it? And that's part of our evolution. Last question for you, Deepak. I don't think you bill yourself as a futurist, but I think it's easy for us to envision a dystopian future, maybe because it makes for good movies, and therefore it's all been made visual for us. But it's easy to envision a future where technology has turned us almost obsolete, like the Matrix, you know, where the technology has overtaken us, overtaken humanity. You clearly see a different future. And I've listened to and watched and read a lot of

things. And I had a conversation. I think it was about two weeks ago on the Will Kane show about AI. And this gentleman's vision of the future was one where we have more time. Maybe there's less jobs, but maybe there's also more more easily attainable necessities in life. And we have the ability as a as a species to focus more on morality to focus more on what it means to be a good human what is the future you envision that you can see for us as this technology goes so fast forward like if it's not dystopia what is that future for humanity well the dystopia is there already to a great extent because unfortunately our emotional and spiritual development has not kept up with our technological intelligence. So we act with

medieval minds, but we have modern capacities. And that's a very dangerous situation. When your mind is still tribal and medieval and ethnocentric and racist and all the things that, you know, we needed to survive as a tribe. But that mind and modern capacity, but that mind and modern certainly can lead to dystopia. But then, you know, when I was a child and you'd listen to my parents, they would speak the same language. They'd say, now we have nuclear weapons, they would talk about the Holocaust,

and my grandparents would talk about the First World War, and they would talk about the Great Depression. So you see, actually, everything recycles, and then slowly it evolves. Slowly. It recycles, evolves. Recycles evolves. evolves so right now the technology is so powerful that the recycling has to diminish and the evolution

has to expand because i believe that there's no no problem in the world that our collective intelligence cannot solve creatively no problem whether it's poverty where there's conflict whether it's, you know, lack of self-esteem or, you know, it's health. You know, with the technology we have now, CRISPR gene editing, messenger RNA, the ability to create new vaccines, even for chronic diseases. And then the other part of the technology, the ability to activate our genes through various innovations, including AI. The future could be utopian instead of dystopian, but we have to expand conversations like this because otherwise we just recycle the old stuff.

All right. Digital Dharma is his book, Deepak Chopra.org.a.a.ai is his AI platform we've talked about here today, and it's a fascinating conversation. And I appreciate the time. It's good to talk to you, Deepak. Thank you. Thank you. Take care. And all the best to you. All the best. There goes, Deepak Chopra. You're on the Wilcane show. Don't go anywhere because we're not done. We've got another big interview on democracies and death cults

with the man of the moment. Douglas Murray coming up on the Will Cane show. On July 18th, get excited. This is big! For the summer's biggest adventure. I think I just smurf my pants. That's a little too excited. Sorry.

Smurfs. Only theaters July 18th. This is Jimmy Fan. Inviting you to join me for Fox Across America where we'll discuss every single one of the Democrats' dumb ideas. Just kidding. It's only a three-hour show. Listen live at noon Eastern or get the podcast at Fox Across America.com. here on the Will Cain Show streaming live at Fox News.com on the Fox News YouTube channel and the Fox News Facebook page. Hit subscribe at Apple or on Spotify. Douglas Murray on democracies and death cults joins us now.

What's up, Douglas? Very good to be back with you, Will and with your viewers. Have you found that your very viral debate with Joe Rogan and Dave Smith has spiked book sales for On Democracies and Death Colts? a pure curiosity, Douglas. Was that good promotion? I have no idea. I have no idea, Will. You know what it is with books.

You work very hard at them. You research and you think about them for years. And then something happens that sparks some viral moment. And I don't seek it. But I think in a way, the debate which Joe wanted me to have with comic Dave Smith, I think in some ways has distracted from the subject of the book and on the other hand, I hope, has driven more readers to it. As you know, it's a firsthand account of the aftermath of October 7th, a firsthand account of the war in Israel, Gaza and Lebanon,

and really a reflection on what's happened in our societies and the war. West, especially in America, where so many people have found that in a fight between a democracy like Israel and a death cult like Hamas, we seem to have so many people in our societies who side with the death cult, side with the people who love death rather than the people who love life. I'm sorry that Joe and Comic Dave Smith seem not to have contested. with any of the points I tried to make in the book, but I hope at some point they do. I wanted to start there with you, Douglas. You and I have known each other for a while. We've had a lot of different conversations, including other conversations on books published by you,

the We're on the West, the madness of crowds, the strange death of Europe, which predates before I got to know you, Douglas Murray. One of the things that I've known that you care a great amount about is the preservation of western civilization yes that's a that's a that's a that's a passion that i would say that we share you also perhaps to a much greater scent than i seem to care about things that happen on the surface very far from home whether or not that be israel or ukraine and i just want to ask you why it clearly animates you and you and i've had some conversations uh and you've done a lot of it on your own and in other platforms talking about not just Israel, but Ukraine as well. And you and I've had the conversation. I think Dave Smith, in parts of your three-hour debate, went

in this direction with you. But my animation, Douglas, is maybe somewhat tribal. You know, it's like America. This is where I'm from and acknowledging that you're from the UK, but we're both part of Western civilization. Why did these things like Ukraine or Israel animate you so much, Douglas? Well, it's my belief. that America is exceptionally lucky as a country we're very lucky in America there's been no

land invasion it's unlikely that there's going to be a land invasion arc for a moment the four years of massive illegal migration from the southern border but an organized land invasion of America is quite

hard for most Americans and for most Westerners to imagine but that makes us lucky and not all countries are lucky enough to have Canada to the north which for the time being at any rate remains a relatively friendly power not every country has that most countries in the world most histories are a history of invasion war fighting and fighting for your survival America has several times in its history, most obviously in the 1940s, actually fought a civilizational conflict. But there are other countries, principally in recent years, Ukraine invaded by Vladimir Putin's army,

and Israel invaded by the terrorist army of Hamas, 4,000 people coming, invading Israel on the day to rape and murder. these countries don't have the great good fortune of America and some people like to think that America can remain let's say absent from the world or at least retreat from the world and I believe that America has been an enormous force for good in the world I don't take the view that so many people on the radical left have taken in recent decades and that some people now, sadly, on the right, are also taking that America is a force for ill in the world, that wherever America intervenes, it's always bad, and that if America wasn't involved in the world,

the world would be a better place. I don't agree with that. I think America and the West has been an enormous force for good in the world. And there are some people today on the right and the left who believe that, if America just was divorced from the world in some way, the world would be a better place. But my observation, not least from my travels, from my reporting, is that there are other countries that would like to take America's place. And they are all infinitely worse by unimaginable degrees. That China, for instance, would love to be in. charge of the world's waterways. It would love the Chinese fleet to be in charge of the world's waterways. Thank God America and the Western navies still are able to keep open the

world's waterways against terrorists like the Houthis and Yemen. I'm deeply worried. I said this to Bill Maher the other night that I'm deeply worried that we in the West think that what we have is the natural order of things like fish in water that don't really understand what water is it's just what you swim in that we are at risk of taking for granted

an unimaginable piece of it's not good luck it's not just good luck it's good fortune handed to us by our predecessors by our ancestors who did brave and brilliant

and important things to make sure that we are able in America and in the West to live the lives that we enjoy. I think the second half of that answer is where I would want to go next. And that is, it's hard not to hear some of what you say and harken back to that debate with Smith, but Smith is not, he is not singular. So I am kind of uninterested in the debate of whether or not America is a force for good or force for evil in this moment.

I'm uninterested in that. For me, when I ask you about why these things animate you, Ukraine or Israel, it's not in pursuit of some moral comparison of the United States' weight on the world stage or compared to others. And it's certainly not, which I think is reductionist and easy to dismiss concerns as isolationist. That's an extreme on one end of a poll that I think is a distraction. But rather or not whether or not these causes can be explained to any tribe, any tribe. But in this situation, we're talking about the tribe of America as serving in its own interest.

So we'll stick with Ukraine on this one. It's always been hard for me. I'm being up front with you and the audience. You know, I don't want to hear about whether or not Vladimir Putin is bad or Zelensky is good or vice versa. That's not germane to me, to the. real conversation of you're asking for an investment of some type from America. Why does it serve America's interest? In the case of Ukraine, it's obviously much more an issue of European interests. Obviously, the NATO powers in Europe are deeply fearful of Vladimir Putin's desire

to basically reconstruct the Soviet Empire. And so, yes, it's far away for America, and that's understandable. And I've always urged for decades now that European partners should be paying not just their way, but more than their way, because this is Europe's neighbourhood. It's Europe that is a threat, Eastern Europe in particular. So obviously they should be the ones who are most concerned about this. But, you know, America, needs allies in the world. It deserves allies. It requires allies. And those allies are principally to be found, although, as I say, they've massively underpaid their way, are principally to be found in Europe and the rest of the Anglosphere. In the case of Israel, I think it's more,

there's a greater proximity to the case here at home in America. And let me just explain quickly why. you'll notice and your listeners will have noticed that in the last 18 months since hamaz's massacre of the seventh of october we've had a lot of disturbance in america and in other western countries we've had a lot of disturbances on campuses but also in the streets places like grand central station in new york shut down the other week by a pro hamas mob of americans I've got a rule which I think people can recognize, which is notice, notice what these groups, these anti-Israel groups call for, notice that they fly the flags of the PLO, of Hamas, of Hezbollah. They never fly an American flag. In fact, when they find an American flag, as they did last summer, when there was a massive protest against Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's appearance, joint session of Congress, when they find an American flag in D.C., the anti-Israel mob will pull it down

from its mast and burn it in the streets of Washington, D.C. It's not just that they hate Israel. They hate Israel first, but all of the groups that hate Israel and believe, they can destroy Israel, have chosen Israel because they think it's the easiest one to destroy of the Western alliance. I think they're right and wrong on that in that they're right because they're choosing a country of nine million people instead of a country of more than 300 million people. And they're also wrong in it because they are not contending with the fierce desire of the people of Israel to survive. But the striking thing to me is that every single group that is anti-Israel in America, in the West, is always hating Israel first and the rest of us next. The Columbia

student group that is so endlessly in the news because of all the free speech advocates who've decided that it's perfectly fine to chase Jewish students across campus and call for their murder in New York, for instance. The Columbia Students Group has become such a litmus test of free speech in this country calls in its statements for, quote, the complete destruction of Western civilization. I'll do it again. The complete destruction of Western civilization. They want to bring down America.

They are doing it first by trying to try. trying to bring down Israel by calling for support for the death cults, whose work I've seen up close, but they want to destroy our civilization. They want the whole thing to come down. It's a revolutionary movement, and I think it should be treated with the seriousness that has been very significantly lacking, actually, in the response to this. These people who support the death cults who glorify in the death cults. They're supporting, well, they're supporting a group that has abducted and tortured Americans for 18 months. There is still a 21-year-old from New Jersey, Eden Alexander, who after 18 months is still being held by Hamas in its

torture chambers underneath Gaza. I wish people realized. I wish it was easier to persuade people that when they say, when Hamas and others say that, and the Revolutionary Islamic government in Iran most of all, say that Israel is the little Satan and America is the great Satan, I wish people realize they're serious about it. They're serious about it. And so we should be serious about it as well. So the argument is that Israel serves as sort of a forward operating base of Western civilization, and what starts in Israel already has, much less will, manifest here at home or in Europe or other countries of Western civilization. Do you see an analogy at all? And I'm just thinking this out loud. I hadn't thought about it before. Do you see an analogy

to some of the arguments that might have been made in the 1950s or 60s for involvement in Vietnam? And there's a very different other side to this. A death cult, as you point out, is not the same thing as a communist on its surface, at least. But the argument for involvement in Vietnam was that communism would roll, Marxism would roll throughout the world, that you have to stop it here or it rolls into Australia or wherever else it may go, Central America. And you could have equally pointed then, in the 1960s, obviously, to radical communist movements here at home, was sympathized with the other side. So do you think that your argument about the importance of the defense of Israel,

on this front, that it is the first domino in an attack on Western civilization, is akin to that fight against communism that was made when it came to Vietnam? It's got some similarities, not a lot, because Vietnam was not, it was an important, it was an important area of conflict in the effort to stop communism rolling around the world. And by the way, I mean, one of the funny things about victories is that people brush them aside as inevitable. It wasn't inevitable in the late 20th century. If it hadn't been for the commitment of an amazing young American men and extraordinary American politicians, It was not inevitable that freedom would win out in the 20th century in the aftermath of World War II.

The communist threat is now seen by a lot of Americans through the eyes of Hollywood blacklisting and McCarthyism and much more. But it was a real threat. Communism swept through much of the world. And it was only America's example and America's sacrifice that meant that by our generation, we were born into freedom without a serious existential threat to us. Thanks to Ronald Reagan in particular and the American administrations in the 1980s, but many decades before that, America managed to not just defeat Congress, communism on the battlefield of war, but it defeated it in the realm of ideas. Not completely. We still

have some congressmen and women who seem to think that, you know, socialism just hasn't worked yet. Let's give it another whirl. But broadly speaking, it was defeated, almost completely as Nazi fascism was. The argument that I make about Israel is different from that. I believe that our civilization is intricately tied up with our Judeo-Christian heritage, absolutely intricately tied up with it. It's obviously been the case in recent decades that many people in the West have tried to soar off the branch that we're sitting on on the tree of our culture. But the desire of the Iranian revolutionary government and its proxies of Hamas and Hezbollah, to annihilate the Jewish people.

This is the stated ambition of Hamas and Hasba. To annihilate the Jewish people is to me an attempt to strike not just at the branch of the tree that we're sitting on, but a desire to destroy the tree of our civilization at its root. And this is a desire which should be treated very seriously and should be resisted with all of our intellectual and military force. More of the Will Cain Show, right after this. For a limited time at McDonald's, enjoy the tasty breakfast trio.

Your choice of chicken or sausage McMuffin or McGrittles with a hash brown and a small iced coffee for five bucks plus tax. Available until 11 a.m. at participating McDonald's restaurants. Price excludes flavored iced coffee and delivery. I'm Janisteen. Join me every Sunday as I've focus on stories of hope and people who are truly rays of sunshine in their community and across the world. Listen and follow now at foxnewspodcast.com. Do you, you and I talked about this roughly a week ago on the Will Cane show.

I think it wasn't explored in full, but it was addressed to some extent in your conversation with Smith on Rogan. And you've definitely written about it here on on democracies and death cults. And that is the role of anti-Semitism in this writ large. The anti-Semitism, as you point out, of Hamas, of Iran is self-evident. But the existence, and I'm actually less interested in this part of the conversation, on just focusing on, you know, far afield, quote-unquote, enemies. But what may exist at home? And you point out, maybe it's on the left, maybe it's also.

on the right and it's pervasive throughout humanity right meaning it's over a grand scope of millennia yes you've called it the darker parts of the human heart and i know this is a big question and i don't even it maybe it's worth an hour on its own and we maybe even touched on it what is it why why do you believe anti-semitism is such a enduring form of prejudice well one of the things about it is that in my view the Jewish people are almost perfectly placed to answer every conspiracy theory in the world. Every Jewish people throughout history have been able to overperform in a lot of areas and they've been prominent in a lot of areas and they are small in number. When a group is disproportionately successful,

and this isn't by any means to say that all Jews are or anything like that, but disproportionately successful in the areas that they have particularly dominated, almost anybody who has a beef in their life, a problem in their life, can look at the Jews, less than 20 million people in the world can look at the Jews and say, why have they got something? Why have they done something?

Why have they achieved something? And why have I not? It's almost perfectly placed as a minority to act as the mirror and a scold to everybody else who has not succeeded in their life or as a country. There are different types of antisemitism. There has been historically

a type of Christian anti-Semitism. There is left-wing anti-semitism, right-wing anti-semitism. And there is Islamic anti-semitism, which is the one that almost nobody dares to talk about, but which I address in this book. Islamic anti-Semitism, among other things, comes from the fact that the Jewish people were among the first to say to Muhammad to his face that they didn't want Islam. They already had their book. They already had their prophets. And this made a very, very big problem of theory. theological problem from the origins of Islam with Jewish people. Today, much of that is still

resonant and it's a sore at the heart of many Muslims because they can't bear the fact that there's this one tiny Jewish state that's so successful in a region where state after the state run by Muslim governments is either incredibly corrupt, incredibly oligarchical, or a complete catastrophe. And my view is that, and I say this in the book, that one of the interesting things about anti-Semitism is it tells you nothing about the Jews, but it tells you everything about the person who suffers from it. Look at the things that people accuse the Jews of.

as I say in the book, I can tell you what you're guilty of. Look at the Iranian revolutionary government that accuses the Jewish state of being a colonialist. And the mullahs have spent all the decades since 1979 colonizing the Middle East. Look at the accusations of President Erdogan in Turkey who says that Israel, the Jewish state, is an occupying power.

This is President Erdogan, of course, oversees a government that is still occupying the north of Cyprus and has been for 50 years. But this works in every way. And the one that I think people need to be aware of in the United States of America is this. I quote Grossman, Vasily Grossman's rule in the middle of life and faith. Tell me what you accuse the Jews of and I'll tell you what you're guilty of. It's a mirror to people's failings and their prejudices and their disappoints. appointments. But there's a very important one that we here in America need to think about, which is what do the students and others accuse the Jewish state of? They accuse it of racism, of white supremacy, of colonialism, of genocide and much more. Why are these terms of abuse so reminiscent? It's because these are all the terms that have been used against the United States of America in the past generation. We, in a America have got young people who believe that America is guilty of genocide, that America is

white supremacist, that America is colonialist, and that America is all of these terrible things. All of the young people and others protesting, whether it's at Union Station, Times Square, Columbia or elsewhere, are accusing the Jews of things that they themselves have been told that they are guilty of. What we're seeing in the modern end, anti-Semitism is a form of psychological projection on a grand scale. Tell me what you accuse the Jews of. I'll tell you what you were taught that you're guilty of. All right, last thing I want to talk about with you, Douglas, and it's the meta debate. It's interesting. Like, I think in your three hours on Rogan, like this was the crux of your debate. It was less about the substance, as you point out,

on democracies and death cults. It was less about the issues at hand. And it was more about this concept of expertise, and that's, of course, what's gone viral since. And since then, I've seen you talk about this, and I think you make a very, very good analogy and point when you talk about, you know, Joe wouldn't have anybody on to discuss MMA. He would turn to people that he knows they know what they're talking about. Now, I think it's a great analogy. I do wonder this, though, Douglas, so that no one is lost on the subject, your point to Rogan and to Smith. is, I believe I'm characterizing your point accurately here, you are disproportionately platforming people who do not have expertise on the subject and or come from one point

of view on the subject. But, and I feel like you have a, and I listened to you, and you talked a lot about what people are fed, or not a lot, you talked to some about what people are fed and their algorithm and the information they're getting. And I, I guess, in the end, you're not asking anybody to shut up or be. censored to be clear. You constantly say you're allowed. Yeah, but the point is there was messiness in the conversation about allowed or you're allowed to talk. And you make clear everyone's allowed to talk. It's not about allowed. It's about valued who we listen to, who is platformed and that

kind of thing. But I do worry, Douglas, and I did wonder if you have too much distrust of an audience. In other words, and you can talk about proportionality, but But I guess I kind of trust the audience to hear everything, hear as much as possible, hear Daryl Cooper, hear Dave Smith, hear Douglas Murray's argument, hear everyone, and then trust, and maybe my trust is naive, but to trust that they will gravitate towards the information that is of value. I would love to share your optimism on that well but two things if I may firstly there is a reason why Fox has correspondence

that report from places there is a reason why you go to Trey Yinks when you're reporting something from Israel there's a reason why Fox reporters have bravely been in war zone after war zone because we need to hear from them.

One of our colleagues was very, very badly wounded reporting from Ukraine. Why was he there? Because that is a vital job. It is vital that journalism includes first-hand accounts from the front line. And I am not willing to give. give up what is a journalistic standard and pretend that Trey Yinks or any of our other colleagues

in any other war zone is to be regarded as being as nothing compared to a comedian just shooting off in a... But what did you say? Wait, what did you say right there? Is it nothing that Trey Yenks is a nothing? Is that what you said? I'm saying, I'm not willing to say that that is nothing that we're not. what Trey and others, our colleagues, do is nothing, and that it's just an opinion, or it's just, you know, you could sit in Austin and come to the same conclusions.

No, no, there are journalistic standards. And I know that journalism has let itself down in a big way in recent decades. And I know that we have biased journalism and much more. But that does not mean that frontline reporting of the kind that our colleagues. colleagues, and I do, is simply to be regarded as akin to anyone else sitting reading Wikipedia at home. So, no, I do think there is such a thing as expertise, including firsthand expertise. Can I just quickly to interject, but I would say, I can't speak for others. I would say, that's not, what I'm suggesting is not a rejection of expertise. We can all acknowledge expertise in different levels of knowledge and obviously firsthand experience or witness increases one's level of expertise. But rather, I'm not afraid, Douglas, of hearing

the person that we would say is not an expert, right? I'm not afraid of hearing from others. I agree. But then the second thing I wanted to say is, just consider the way in which you and I and others of our friends and colleagues have recognized that in recent years, for instance, a student going to an American campus at an Ivy League or somewhere else will be brainwashed. They will be indoctrinated. They will be told that radical left views of the world and of American history and much more are the only views. They will not get contrary opinion. They will be force-fed of diet of anti-American pap. We know that that happens. We know it can happen. And one of my warnings is that can happen in other directions too. If you only invite on

to a podcast or a platform, people who believe that Adolf Hitler was not so bad and that Churchill was the great villain of the 20th century, you will indoctrinate people into that false history as much as the radical left as trying to indoctrinate a generation and more into an anti-American version of history. I do not want that to happen. I believe that sensible, intelligent people

can think their way out. I do believe that. But I also know that it is, perfectly possible to brainwash people into counterfactual counter history that in the end on the right as from the left in the past will be very very consistently anti-American and i am what i was trying to warn joe and his fellow guest about was we know the anti-americanism that has come from the left we now see in a form of anti-americanism that has come from the left we now see in a form of anti-Americanism from the right. I dislike that as well. I want it to be contested. I want it to be

countered. And I don't want it to be countered by some other know nothing. I want it to be countered by the people who know. We have great historians and great figures in America who could counter that at a drop of a hat. And I want to see those people platformed and not just some kooky comedian who's read a bit of Wikipedia and discovered that America's the root of all evil no no no well i i think you're not asking for my review or advice i think that's your strongest argument but it's buried in that word not just and it's about proportionality in other words you know you you say you you begin the whole thing with the argument on proportionality it's it's i know you don't believe these things you see we can believe in expertise but not

believe in credentialism we can believe in indoctrination but trust people to understand and to filter if they're given access to full information. I don't want to replace left expertiseism and credentialism with right expertise and right credentialism. They exist. But the real answer is a full spectrum of information. And then let everyone's credentials and information way out. It would have to be a full spectrum.

It would have to not be, for instance, completely ill. equipped fake historians who are trying to push a discredited version of the 20th century onto viewers. And if you did host such people, you ought to at least bring on one of the many distinguished figures like, I've cited him twice in the podcast, if you're going to talk about Churchill, why not interview Winston Churchill's most famous current living by biographer Andrew Roberts, why not interview Victor Davis Hansen? Why not interview one of the many, many people who can say that the counter history that is being fed is wrong? Don't just feed people the counter history.

Give them the facts as well. And if that happened, I would be content. I'm interested in revisionists. I'm interested in cooks and quacks and quacks. But I don't think that the public square should be principally occupied by the cooks and the quacks. I would like to see the adults also in the room. Well, here is part of that full spectrum, by the way, and expertise on democracies and death cults, Israel and the future of civilization, Douglas Murray. The book is out now.

And this is where you can see the substantive argument. I would argue over the three-hour podcast. This is where, obviously, you get into the actual argument being made by Douglass. And this is where I put in the groundwork. I put in the groundwork. Yes. Being in all these places. I've seen all these things.

This is firsthand. This is journalism. This is testimony. And I stand by everything I write, everything I've done, because I think it matters. And for me, none of it is a game. It's not about some debate. It's about some of the most important issues of our time. And I've thought about the long and hard.

And I'm very glad that the reading public and the book buying public has already been responding by sending the book to the top of the bestseller chance. There you go. There's an answer to the first question we have. at least in part. Yes, people are buying on democracies and death cults. All right, Douglas Murray, it's always great to talk to you. Thank you for so much time today. Thank you.

Okay, take care, Douglas Murray. All right, quickly to the comments here among the militia. Let's start with Deepak Chopra. Flying Unicorn says, I don't get AI, know nothing about it, but if we're going to need three times what the U.S. already uses an energy to run it, isn't that bad for the environment. George Riebevich says Deepak Chopra is an AI expert, who knew and chief walk on says looking for solace technology AI to further spirituality is a bit

ironic sounds like a false profit to me i think the irony is exactly what makes it interesting could this tool just another tool in the long arc of humanity be something that actually helps us spiritually steve may says why isn't douglas talking about christians being persecuted at this very moment we didn't get to that in this discussion today i'm sure he'd be very happy to address that topic as well but that's going to be it for the topic today here on the Will Cain Show. We're going to see you again, same time, same place next time. Listen to the all-new Brett Bear podcast featuring Common Ground, in-depth talks with lawmakers from opposite sides of the aisle, along with all your Brett Bear favorites, like his all-star

and much more. Available now at Fox News Podcasts.com or wherever you get your podcasts.