Will Cain Country - Elite Warriors: Inside The Mind Of A Navy SEAL

Episode Date: July 24, 2023

On this episode, Will revisits a conversation with former Navy SEAL and FBI Agent, Errol Doebler to discuss America's most elite warriors, the U.S. Navy SEALs. Errol articulates the defining principles of Navy SEALs and the immense leadership and emotional intelligence developed while in this position. Will and Errol discuss the interpersonal relationships within SEAL teams and the impact on their daily duties. Later, Errol relishes the unbreakable brotherhood cultivated while in the Navy SEALs. Tell Will what you thought about this conversation by emailing: [e-mail] Follow Will on Twitter: @WillCain Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

For a limited time at McDonald's, enjoy the tasty breakfast trio. Your choice of chicken or sausage McMuffin or McGrittles with a hash brown and a small iced coffee for $5.5 plus tax. Available until 11 a.m. at participating McDonald's restaurants. Price excludes flavored iced coffee and delivery. America's most elite warriors. Hey, what's up? It's Will Kane. This is the Will Kane podcast. And today we have another entry on our series on America's biggest badasses. As a reminder, I have been fascinated. I have glamorized. We have all made celebrities of special operators, of Navy SEALs, of Green Berets, of Delta Force, of Marine Raiders. But I, for one, really in the end, didn't know that much about America's most elite. Warriors. What is their day-to-day job? What is the selection criteria? What is life like beyond the movie Navy Seals? Well, today I have a conversation with a guy who is absolutely

fascinating both within and outside of the special operator community. Errol Dobler has written a book entitled The Process Art and Science of Leadership. He has an online academy video series that you should check out. It's called Leader193.com, where you can follow along on his analysis and his instruction on what it takes to be a great leader. He focuses a lot on emotional intelligence. And in the course of this conversation, you will hear that play out as he talks about, not just what it took to make it through buds or to become a Navy SEAL, but for example,

how do you go through something like Hell Week with guys who are enlist? when you are an officer and understand it is what brings you together and yet you have to remain separate because of the chain of command. Absolutely fascinating conversation into what leads someone down the path of becoming a Navy seal, what the process is like, and what a fascinating life he's had after when he's joined the FBI, part of an FBI unit that was deployed to Afghanistan. And a proponent of the Wimhoff method taking cold showers, cold baths, which, of course, now I have to try.

You're going to enjoy this conversation with Errol Dobler, Navy SEAL. All right, Errol, in all of the conversations that I've had and in all of the popular culture that I've consumed about Navy SEALs, the one image or trait that stands out is this idea that you have to have a level of grit and a unwillingness to quit that supersedes clearly at the average human, but also the average warrior. So my question for you is this. Was there a moment, maybe when you were entering buds, you were standing there on the beach the first day, or at any point in your selection process where there was doubt, where you said, I do not know if I can do this,

if I'm going to make it, I may ring the bell. The short answer is no. and anybody who did have that feeling did ring the bell and I think anybody who's been through Buds successfully will tell you the same thing now my road to Buds was circuitous I was when I graduated the Naval Academy I didn't get a billet to Buds right it right away

I had to go to the surface fleet and then I was working hard to laterally transfer and that's a very very competitive and ominous process so I almost feel like I got lucky. But there was just never a moment, something that I wanted so bad that I didn't believe that I would get there and when I was there I didn't believe I would finish.

There was nothing. Things would make me nervous, like, oh boy, this sounds hard. But, you know, once quitting was never an option, then your mind is free to think about, okay, how am I going to get through this successfully? So the short answer is absolutely not, and I think everybody who made it through Buds will tell you the same thing. Okay, I want to spend a few minutes digging into that because this is actually one of the,

it may be the crux of the most interesting part of America's elite warriors to me. And that is the mindset and the personality characteristic. Now, I've talked to a lot of guys. I've talked to Marine Raiders. I've talked to Seals. And I've asked, is there any commonality? And what I've gathered is no, meaning there's no commonality among physical traits. There's big tall guys.

There's short, squatty guys. there's every type of physical guy in that service. And then I've asked, is there any commonality to the personality traits? Some guys are understated. Some guys are aggro in your face. And I've also gathered, no. But the one commonality is sort of what you just said. And I'm curious, was that desire or unwillingness to quit always part of your personality?

Like when you were a kid, when you were playing sports, was it always part of who you were? the most competitive will not quit dude yeah i think if i had to look back in hindsight if people had to describe me they would say i had an incredible will to succeed um which i did when i cared about something they would also say i thought erl had this incredible will to succeed he doesn't really seem to care about this thing that he's doing and lots of times that unfortunately was in the classroom but um so yeah i think i think i think i think think I did have that, but again, Buds transcends that to a degree, because everybody there was a stud, and that's just a fact, even if they quit, right? It doesn't make them less of a stud.

They were a stud. It was just that wasn't something that they wanted more than anything in the world and were willing to sacrifice. I mean, I'll tell you, I can tell you a million stories, but at the end of our class, right, we had a nice, unique class. Of course, everybody's Bud's class was the hardest class. You know that, right? And so, but we did. We started with 200 people, and by the end of Hell Week, and I think, I think they may have changed it a little bit, but Hell Week is early. It's like the end of week four or five. We finished with 10. We had 10.

So we had lost 190 guys in the course of that period. And I remember they walked us around that final day, and I had shin splints so bad. I never thought shin splints could hurt that bad. And I just remember walking around the boat on our head. They would walk us by the bell and all the helmets and it was very emotional. I was like, I am sure my leg is going to snap in half. I had no doubt it was going to snap in half. And I was like, well, then it's going to snap in half because I'm certainly not going to quit.

And I trust that somebody's going to be able to help me. And that's not to say, look at me, aren't I so tough and hard? That's the mindset. It just didn't matter. You know, so, so again, that's a long answer to the question. Yeah, I generally had a good will and was tough, but Buds is a new level. You've got to want that specific thing really bad. And that's, you know, that's okay.

So I feel like I'm honing into a commonality, and I appreciate your answer and how it distinguishes, you know, I think, look, I have two sons. They're very into sports. I see their teammates. And I look at all of these kids, and I see varying levels of competitiveness. And you see varying levels of quit. in your kids or in your friends, and you wonder, do those translate to elite warriors? And what you're kind of distinguishing for me, which I really appreciate and find interesting, is the commonality is not so much what you're pointing at Will, because everybody was a stud.

It's actually passionate. It's actually, how bad do you want this? And because you wanted it so bad, you never had the doubt or the ability to quit. In other words, you said, for you, there are other things in your life where you would have been competitive, but you didn't want it so bad, so maybe you wouldn't have seen it through. Or guys who were stud athletes and stud competitors maybe didn't want it as bad as you. And so they had that little bit of quit in them, and it was ferreted out through Hell Week. Yeah, you know, and I think, you know, again, there needs to be a baseline of competition and aggression, emotionally. intelligence certainly that's one of the things we don't talk about very often and it's something

i focus on a lot with my clients because it is the most important thing um so it is that that emotional awareness of how you're feeling okay how you intuitively would act on that feeling recognizing that's not the action i want how do i want to behave what's my plan to get going forward and you do that intuitively and so i still think that it is to a degree situational think about Think about somebody who wants to write a book, right? There's stories galore about great authors who wrote X number of books before that one hit. Well, they wanted more than anything to write a great book. They were not going to stop writing until they wrote a great book.

So it's a different type of courage. It's a different type of great, but it still all comes down to if you're lucky enough to be able to find something that you want so bad, you'll get it. Right. It's just some people when they talk about what's my purpose in life and I don't know and I don't have a purpose. That's a real thing. Now, I can help people find the purpose. Okay, but when it comes to something as random as being a seal, I feel fortunate that that was presented to me at a point in my life where it was always kind of like, man, I just can't get that thing out of my head when I saw when I was 12 years old. What was it when you were 12 years old that you saw the major of my seal? Yeah, so my neighbors were, they went, they were a Naval Academy family. And they were, the boys were older than me, so I really looked up to them. And they bought over a pamphlet of the Naval Academy.

And it was super cool, right? You're that young, you're looking at something cool like the Naval Academy and people in uniform. And I'm just flipping through it, and I was kind of enamored by it. And then there was this one section, this is back in early 1980s, right? I'm a pretty old guy. So there wasn't everything you can find out about the SEALs you can today, right? It just wasn't out there. There was one picture of a bunch of guys in these little shorts, right?

You know those UDT shorts. And they were just standing there hanging out, right? Posed for a picture, and there was one small paragraph about this elite group of guys who operate primarily in the water, and they do missions that nobody really talks about. Now, I grew up swimming. I grew up by the water, so that was in me, right? So that resonated. And I was just like, man, that looks cool.

What is that? Who are these guys? I went to the library, right? What's that thing you get on the, not the card catalog, but, you know, the old newspapers are going through and you're scrolling through? I can't remember what it was called. Microfish. The microfish. Good job.

Very well done. And there was one article about what a seal was. And it was probably less than what I saw in that Naval Academy thing. And I read that article probably a thousand times. I can't even remember what it was about, but I just remember, this is so cool. So in the back of my mind, when I was in high school, I played lacrosse was my primary sport. I played football too. But lacrosse was where I was going to go to college.

I remember my coach saying, okay, look, it's time to start thinking about this. Where do you want? Where do you want to go? Who do you want me to start calling? You know, and there was Johns Hopkins. in Syracuse and all those schools and just somewhere I said the Naval Academy

I hadn't really thought about it and he was like okay and that was the only school that I really talked to and in hindsight it was because I knew I had this thing that I ended up wanting to do and at the time I just assumed you had to go to the Naval Academy to do it

which you don't so yeah that's where I was introduced to them very randomly and very subtly but it just stuck and I feel lucky for that We'll be right back with more of the Will Cain podcast. Following Fox's initial donation to the Kerr County Flood Relief Fund, our generous viewers have answered the call to action across all Fox platforms and have helped raise $7 million.

Visit go.com forward slash TX flood relief to support relief and rebuilding efforts. It is time to take the quiz. It's five questions in less than five minutes. We ask people on the streets of New York City to play along. Let's see how you do. Take the quiz every day at the quiz.com. Then come back here to see. how you did. Thank you for taking the quiz.

So I take it you're from somewhere originally along the Atlantic seaboard, either Long Island or Maryland. I'm doing this because in the night Oh, there we go. See, 1980s lacrosse admit you were probably from one or two places, Long Island or Maryland or somewhere around the D.C. area. And so I'm curious, you brought up swimming. So you're from Long Island. Now I'm going to assume

maybe from the South Shore, you brought up being around the water. So I'm just curious, what was your sort of athletic background? Did you competitively swim? Did you surf? I hear lacrosse. And by the way, as you're answering that question, did you play lacrosse at Naval Academy? I did play lacrosse at Naval Academy. And so I grew up, I started playing hockey at four and started competitive swimming at four. So those are my two sports early on. and, you know, hockey is really what I, hockey and swimming is really what I focused on growing up. You know, randomly played soccer and Little League and all those other things, which I enjoyed.

And then when I was 15 or 16, I wanted to play football in high school. So I was able to play football in like eighth and ninth grade and not have it conflict too much, but then it would be a conflict. And I just wanted, I really enjoyed football. And my dad said to me, look, you have to make a choice. And so the choice was, well, what he said was, you might be able to go somewhere with this hockey thing. And if you are, we need to get you to Canada, right? At the time, right, hockey wasn't as big as it is now, right?

You didn't get, there was no NHL players from America hardly. So if you wanted to go for it, you had to go to Europe or you had to go to Canada. And that was the decision on the table. And I just said, you know, I just want to play football. And that was it. And, you know, in hindsight, I'm glad I did make that decision because I probably would have kept playing hockey and then I wouldn't have been on that path to be a Navy SEAL.

So, yeah, that was my, and then I played four years at the Naval Academy. And that was that. And they didn't unfortunately have the professional cross league because I know some guys now, when they graduate the Naval Academy, They can get a little wiggle room and maybe play a year or two if they wanted to in a professional sport. I probably would have pursued that, but it just wasn't around. I just spent a couple of weekends ago at the United States Military Academy at West Point, and I was talking to the head football coach, and he said that Donald Trump had loosened those rules,

that if you're a high-level recruiter, or you have the ability to play professionally, he was talking about football, but it may apply to all sports now, that the military is a little more lenient on letting you go, and pursue that path and defer your commitment coming out of the academies, which is great, which is great that you can go ahead and pursue that for some time. And as you point out, you weren't then. But back to the story of you and being a Navy SEAL. So I'm curious about this as well and your circuitous route that you mentioned a moment ago. You said, and by the way, I had a similar thought process when I was in high school.

I was a competitive swimmer, and, you know, I toyed with. nothing more than toyed with the idea of, man, I would love to be a Navy SEAL. But it did, in my mind, mean the Naval Academy. And it doesn't need to be the Naval Academy, the path to being a Navy SEAL. And in fact, I'm curious about the dynamics that created for you once you were in BUDs and even after you received your Trident because you're an officer and you're around guys who have been SEALs or are going through this process who are enlisted. And I'm just curious about the social dynamics of that.

And I know you served a little bit before, I don't know, I'm sorry if it's more than a little bit. I know you served before going to Buds. I'm just curious about that officer enlisted dynamic once you're in the special operator realm. Yeah, it's different than it is in every, and I can only speak for the SEAL teams because I was also, so later on I joined the FBI and I was attached to the 75th Ranger Regiment in Afghanistan for combat operations. I saw that dynamic. They're a high-tier special operations group, and that was certainly different. They were much more Army, traditional Army, you know, officer-enlisted relationship. The SEAL teams was different, and it was much closer, and they warned you against that.

Now, I think they're doing a much better job of helping young leaders lead with people that they're so close to it. and your same age. I think they've put a lot of things in place since I went. But they would constantly warn, don't get too close to your men. Don't get too close to your men. You know, go out and have a beer with them,

but don't be the last one out. You know, that type of stuff. You know, buy a couple rounds and then exit. And I, you know, like most young men, I wish I could go back and redo some of them because I didn't heed those warnings. And you learn the hard way what happens and what they mean

and what they mean is at some point you're going to have to ask people to do things they don't like you're going to have to give orders and say enough conversation these orders stand let's go whatever it is whether it's go clean the toilet or

your walking point into what we think is going to be a potential ambush area you know whatever it is you're going to have to give that hard order and they'll they'll say if you get too close they're going to say but I thought we were boys and now all of a sudden you're acting like an officer and it happens it happened to me and I had to make an immediate switch and I remember I just

I had to say you know what you're right and I was wrong but this is the way it is so I'll be more careful about how I do things but the order stands here's how we're doing business and then I became a much better officer after that because there does need to be that separation but it just gets hard because you spend, first of all, Buds, you go through the exact same thing together. Yeah. And it's six months. Yeah. We're with each other all the time.

And the operations, you're just so with each other and it's a small unit. So you really have to understand that that dynamic can go either way and you have to work to keep that separation. And I got much better at it

as I got older. But yeah, that's a dynamic. And it's just something that always a young officer is always going to have to struggle with. And now I don't know if they necessarily go through that in like green berets or Delta or anything like that. But I can speak obviously directly as SEAL teams and the Ranger Regiment, which it was different. So I'm glad earlier when we were talking about passion that you brought up if you want to be a great author. Because everyone knows that's the third phase of SEAL training. How do you get an agent and how do you go about publishing your first book?

You know, I've heard of that joke The first time was a year ago. And I guess it was pretty funny. But that being said, you know, I want to come back to what you have done since being a seal in a moment, and I feel you tying it into some of your answers right now. And I'm not putting you off

because I have genuine curiosity about the concept of emotional intelligence and its application to where you are now, but also in retrospect to what you went through at that time as a seal. And I got to assume, like, what a ridiculous amount of emotional intelligence it would require to go through buds together and maintain distance or then afterward create distance with guys you had been through that with. That is next level. That's really, honestly, that's just hard for any human being whatsoever to be drawn that close together and then force each other apart.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's, the funny thing is you don't even realize you're doing it. at the time because all you care about when you're a seal is being a great seal right when you're a seal officer all you care about is being a great seal officer um and and anybody worth their salt whether they succeeded or not is almost irrelevant that's what you needed to care about and that's all i cared about i wanted to be able to be a great operator but i wanted to be a great leader of men and then when I got questioned in the way I just described I immediately went to

that is not a great leader of men a great leader of men doesn't have their people questioning them like that I need to change something so yeah in hindsight as you reflect back what was happening that was an emotional awareness and there was some emotional intelligence in there and I recognized the emotion I had and what I was doing and then what I needed to do when I made the adjustment but it was really born from the design just to be a great leader and just recognizing I'm not a great leader if people are questioned me like that. I know that's a passion of yours and again, that's where we'll go

in just a moment. Would you help fill in some gaps in my knowledge, my ignorance, my understanding here of how the teams operate? From what I understand, and I know it's changed over time, just because you finished buds doesn't mean you got to try it. You had to go to a team, to be accepted by that team. You had to go through a board review, essentially, of that team before you got your trident, before you became a seal. I believe now it's been more standardized. I think guys get their tried-ins earlier. Can you tell me about the team dynamics, meaning so I think you were with one and three. You assigned operations one and four, excuse me. So the teams are assigned theaters, right? Operation regions. Is that how the

the teams work? Yeah. Yeah. So generally speaking, teams are defined theaters of operation around the world. And some of them are, you know, so one of my seal team one, I was part of an amphibious readiness group, which means we got on a ship and ultimately deployed with an entire battle group at SEAL Team 4. We went down to South America and deployed, you know, as necessary in that area of the world.

and I'm pretty sure it still works the same way there because I actually know it well I know that when I was in when I was in Afghanistan and we were getting ready for an operation and a guy walked in and he introduced himself and he goes hey man I heard you you used to be a team guy and I said yeah I was and he goes well I'm with the teams right now and I just got shot over here he was doing something random and he goes I'm with team four

and they're not deploying us over here and any way you can get me on this operation I thought that given the operational demand every team was being deployed to either Iraq or Afghanistan and it wasn't true then I felt bad for this guy so we got him on the operation he got a little action and I was happy for him

but yeah so everybody's assigned to a theater of operation you know anybody can be pulled anywhere at any given time but it's generally pretty standardized. And as far as the Trident goes, yeah, I think what they're doing now is better. It's more standardized. Everybody gets it the same way. They have to go through the same process. When I went, the funny thing about graduating from Buds is, and the instructors remind you,

you know, you guys, you all should be proud of yourselves. You did a good job, and you graduated, and here's all the people that didn't. and just remember when you get to your team everybody graduated from buds you no longer matter you are not special you are just like everybody else at a super high level

but you're just like everybody else so you better get that new guy mindset going where it's time to learn again and so yeah you know when I got mine it was almost ad hoc and I remember I was bugging the operations officer I was like

When is when can I get my try that? When can I get tested? When this? Tell me what I need to do. And he'd like, just back off. What's your problem? What, you know, he had just forgotten the desire that a new guy has to get the trident on. So finally, it's like, fine.

You got your, you got your test Friday. I hope you're ready. And I'm going to go, you know, so, you know, it was him, the XO, and the CEO. And they just ran through a range of questions, mostly high-level tactical stuff. and you know it was it was a couple hours but you still had to go to your advanced seal training so they knew you know so anyway that's the way it was back then I think it's better the way they do it now again because everybody knows exactly what everybody's learning but

you know that's how it was when I went and how does help me understand the team structure how many guys are on a team and how is it broken down within the teams when it comes to tactical units I mean I know that I had an Army Special Forces guy on with me a couple of days ago, and he said we generally operate in 12-man teams. So I'm curious, you know, how big is the overall team, SEAL Team 1, Seal Team 2, 3, 4, and then the unit structure underneath that?

Yeah. So a platoon, and again, I'm assuming it's all the same, which I don't know why they would change it, will be anywhere between 14 and 16 operators. you'll have two officers at least and then you'll split your war platoon into two separate squads and then so generally depending on the operation you'll either operate as a squad or you'll operate as a platoon and then you work that out mission dependent will tell you how you do it you generally have let me you know let's just say you generally have three or four platoons going through various stages of pre-deployment

workup, you know, so you've got a series of platoons who are formed up in their training and getting ready to deploy. Then you've got once you get back, there's always another platoon forming up, so you've got that, right? Then you've got guys who

are going to take a break. I'm not going to deploy right away, so they'll join the trading department, they'll do some admin work, they'll be in the dive shop, in the jump shop, whatever it is, just working a standard 9 to 5, so to speak, not deploying, taking rest. So, you know, what do those numbers look like?

You know, so it's, what is that, 16, 16 guys of the platoon, say, four operational platoons at a time, let's just say then you've got maybe 30, 30 to 40 guys who are not operating a platoon, but our seals who are just doing different things around the command. you know that's about what the number looks like and then you multiply that times and I think they've added teams right so there used to be six regular teams and then of course development group and I think they've added two or three more teams so you know do you have a couple thousand active duty seals operating you know there at any time which sounds like a big number I think people like oh I didn't realize there were so many seals it's really not that many it's still probably of the smallest, you know, special operations unit out there. But so it's something like that. So in just doing the math with you, it sounded like, let's put the over under 100 seals per team broken down into, I think you described it five or six different

platoons. You know, as you said, we could be up to eight or nine teams accepting Dev grew. So, yeah, you're around 1,000, and maybe a little bit more than that. I'm curious how fluid it is. obviously you moved from seal team one to seal team four within the platoons inside of a team very very fluid i'm asking and also within the teams is it fluid for guys to move from one to another yeah so so it varies a little bit so enlisted men and now someday women because they've been given the opportunity to go to buds but i'll just say men because it's all

men right now. Enlisted men can stay. They have a little more flexibility. They can stay at the same team. There was guys who stayed at the same team. When I started at Steel Team 4 first, there was enlisted guys who had been there for 20 years. They never moved to anywhere else. And that's their option.

And that's fine. And they, there's real value in that. Officers don't necessarily have that. Your operating life as an officer is shorter. So I got there late. so I was going to do my assistant platoon commander right

that's what I did at Seal Team 4 and then I immediately wanted to go to a platoon that was forming up right away so I called the detailer and I said I'll go anywhere I just got back from deployment what's the next group deploying that I can get to you know workup time she goes Seal Team 1 has a spot I can give it to you now

like when you hang up you have to get on the road and I was like done right so and then and then I wanted to try to squeeze out one more active platoon so when we deployed I was in I met with the folks from um seal delivery vehicle one so I then was already set as soon as we got back from deployment to go immediately to Hawaii now I got injured on that deployment and subsequently medically discharged but that's that's kind of what an officer has to go to. You have to really be aggressive to squeeze out as many operational patoons as you can in a short amount of time because they're going to cut you off,

say, okay, now it's time for you to take an operational administrative position, be an ex-o of a team, and things like that, you know, and that's just the way it goes, unless you go to development group, which your operational life can extend a little bit longer. You know, I'm curious, so there's, you know, there's talk. of the Brotherhood a lot, you know. Is that an abstract concept in that it is applicable to everyone that wears the Trident? Or is it more of a tangible concept in that it's with men who you have spent time with either in maybe buds or definitely on deployment or with a team? And the reason I ask you that is I'm curious in it may be different for officers and enlisted men. If you switch

teams are there kind of guys that are asking why are you leaving this brotherhood why are you leaving this team we're together why are you moving on yeah no no that not that i ever saw the brotherhood is is the trident um and it's it doesn't extend there's certainly pride in the team you're at but all guys want to do is operating and if they need to move to another team to get to a platoon or to get a different opportunity, then everybody is behind them for doing that. So that's, you know, so there's certainly pride in your platoon.

There's pride in your team. But anybody who makes a move so they can operate, people are actually, you know, they look up to that, not down to that. You know, and the brotherhood is real. You know, when I, so I got, like I said, I got injured and I left, very abruptly. And it wasn't the way I wanted to leave. And, you know, it just, it wasn't,

I wanted to spend my entire career in the SEAL teams. And you don't know what people think. And I remember that I had to reach out. I have, I have some friends from back home who were SEALs, who I was just friends with anyway. And I said, look, I need to get in touch with somebody from the SEAL Foundation. I just don't know enough people anymore. Can you hook me up? And he was like, of course. Got on the call. I was nervous about how this was going to go. I didn't know if he had heard that I got injured and just left. And he just, you know, you let your mind go to certain places.

And this guy was like, Errol Dobler, Errol Dobler, Hole. You're the guy who fell through the hole and then the ladder fell too. He goes, where the hell have you been? I wanted to cry, right? Because you just don't know what people think of you when you leave under those circumstances. And that, to me, cemented what the brotherhood was. This was a guy who heard my name, was able to bring it back, and was like, hey, shame on you. Where have you been?

You know, in a good, in a good positive way. So that's the brotherhood, right? That's the brotherhood. The guy I didn't even know, recognizing I had been gone, recognizing I left under less than optimal circumstances through some, through an injury. And then was like, you know, welcome back, dummy, wherever you've been. It was awesome. you know but you're hinting at something else that I'm curious about so there's the brotherhood there is when you come out of buds as you said everybody is the same but then there's also this thing inside your mind asking I don't know what everybody thinks and it stands to reason and I think I've read it said and I think I've heard guys talk about this not everybody is the same in other words even though you're a seal there are varying degrees of quality even within the seals and so guys are judging as there would be varying degrees of quality by the way in anything with over a thousand people.

So guys are watching and judging and have opinions on, you know, how good of operator you are within the brotherhood. Is that right? 100%. It would be nice to sit here and say that everybody held hands and really just thought the most of everybody else in their abilities. It wasn't that way. You have to keep in mind, right?

you have a history of sports and reporting and reporting on sports so you know if you're talking about hockey players some players are going to be critical of another player I don't like his effort I don't like his attitude he's not committed enough why isn't he work you know there's just going to be that in any super high level competitive organization where the standards are high and to get in is very difficult and to stay is difficult. So there's going to be that. And I just don't think there's anything wrong with that.

That said, at the end of the day, if we're all in a room full of people and I know you were a seal and I don't know anybody else, I'm mosing and over and going, hey man, I was a team guy. Can we just hang out for I get to lay in this land? And he's going to say, yeah,

no shit of course you can, right? Pardon my language on that. And So, yeah, that exists. I think it's good. I think it makes the teams what they are super competitive, super high level. Nobody gets a pass, right? If you're not getting it done, you're going to hear about it.

And if you continue not to get it done, then you get a reputation. And that's not what you want. What path does that take you down? Are there guys, maybe even out of buds who never get, I don't know if invited is the right word, but accept it onto a team? Are there guys that get washed out of teams? Are there guys to get the reputation and nobody wants to work with them? And basically, not that you lose your tried-in, but you're not a working operator anymore,

what happens if you're that guy? So it depends. So there are people who get pushed out of platoons for performance reasons. And, you know, generally speaking, that's a self-correcting proposition. you either get it together or you'll leave right nobody really needs to kick you out now i don't know i don't necessarily i can't recall anybody who's been dismissed from the seal teams for poor performance i it's probably happened but i can't think of one but i know that and i don't say this with a ton of pride but i know i fired um somebody from my platoon and it's not easy to do by the way

and you know they didn't get kicked out of the teams they just you know there was a discussion what it was and the commanding officer agreed with me like okay you've you've explained to me thoroughly why this why this man can't be in your platoon I think that they probably went to they may have just changed teams change the scenery you know who knows what was going on with him he just wasn't performing right his head wasn't there he wasn't getting it done and he was going to get somebody hurt so that happens not a lot but it happens and i think everybody gets to correct everybody gets a chance right god knows if i wasn't given chances on poor performance you know i wouldn't be here talking to you about the seal team so i think that's a

good thing um so yeah it's the standard is still the standard and if if you know i would like to think that as an officer i had high standards for the platoon and everybody met those standards and when you ran into somebody who didn't, you gave them the proper opportunity. You were clear about what you weren't happy with. You were clear about what was expected going forward. Those things should be clear up front. Don't get me wrong. And if it doesn't, you as the leader have to make sure your documentation is there, right?

You have to make sure you have to check with somebody else. Who's my assistant? Am I not seeing something that I should be seeing? So there's a lot of work that goes into telling somebody you can't be in this platoon right now. But everybody will get a second chance. More with our guests coming up. The new BMO ViPorter MasterCard is your ticket to more. More perks, more points, more flights, more of all the things you want in a travel rewards card, and then some.

Get your ticket to more with the new BMO ViPorter MasterCard and get up to $2,400 in value in your first 13 months. Terms and conditions apply. Visit bemo.com slash the iPorter to learn more. So I want to talk about your post-seal career because I don't know if it's fair for me to say it's as interesting. Perhaps it's more interesting. I guess that depends on the listener and the viewer. But before we get into the logistics and the actual specifics of what you've done after the seals, you did write a book.

It's called The Process, Art, and Science of Leadership in listening to you the first half hour. I think it's pretty obvious your passion about the concept of leadership. I actually think I can tie this question into what you were just talking about with the SEALs. I love that you talk about emotional intelligence. I think emotional intelligence is really one of those really hidden forces within life that we don't fully appreciate. But I've seen you, it's interesting, when I've seen you talk about emotional intelligence, Errol, you actually talk about it in the terms of self-awareness, understanding what's making you. you act. I also think it's interesting to understand what's making other people tick and why they're behaving in certain ways. And then there's a question of what do you do about that once you can

diagnose the reason somebody's emotionally acting in one way. But I'm curious, and maybe you can apply it to the SEAL team thing. Same thing with sports as you brought up. They're going to be guys of varying abilities. But there's also going to be guys of different personalities that some people don't want to work with or do want to work with or just don't like. And that takes a ton of EQ to diagnose and then also ask yourself what do I do about this? I mean, there's whatever the number is, 1,200 seals. There's going to

be some guys in there. You're just like, man, I don't even want to be in the mess hall with this guy, much less operate with this guy. Yeah. Yeah, 100%. It's just the way it goes, right? And again, any tight-knit unit for status beyond, there's just people who don't like each other. And there are people who are super abrasive.

And there's something about them. and but so from the emotional awareness standpoint you know when I focus my leadership practice on that I start that every time and and the good news is my background allows me to do that right I can I can come in with this squishy concept of leading everybody I speak with I help with leadership starting with emotional awareness and not one person is going to go oh god tree hugger give me, you know, propaganda. Because I'm going to be like, well, no, I'm going to tell you how this was applicable in combat. So if you're not, if you can't listen to that, then maybe we shouldn't work together. No, no, no, I want to hear all about it. So it's, you know, my hard background allows me to really address that very fluidly and get it in. And so, but it has to start, in my view, with the individual.

Because you're right, right? It's the leader needs to see it in other people. but if you don't have the capacity to see it in yourself, you're never going to see it in other people. Only when you can be constantly aware of how you're feeling and how you may intuitively act on that and is that the right action, will you be able to start seeing it in others, okay?

And so that's why it is, in my view, the bedrock to any human performance, to any leadership, it's got to be that awareness because the emotion will drive the action. Now, from a leadership perspective, and to your question, when we see it in somebody else, there's two parts of this question. First, somebody did something that is completely out of hand and completely like mind-borne, like stupid. What did you just do?

I don't even understand why you did that. If you have that emotional awareness for yourself and everybody else, first you recognize you're super angry about that and you just want to lash out, right? that's the easy way but instead I can go okay I'm super angry but let me get an understanding of this thing first and then let me start thinking what might that person be feeling what emotion might they be going through that would drive them to act like that because I can focus on the action but if I understand there's a reason for it so for example and this is not a military example but it's it's with a client we had he said he had somebody coming to work and they thought he might be drunk and they were so confused that that would happen right and they had they because

it was such a high level performer and all of a sudden now people were complaining and I walked this guy through it I said well that sounds bad and one way or the other it needs to be addressed but you might want to consider asking is everything okay with him is there something going on that's making him upset whatever it is right and he goes, why would I care about that? You know, it's none of my business. I said, well, it is your business. Because if something's happening to him that drives that action, but it's really something

terrible going on in his life, then you need to address that terrible thing in his life, maybe give him some time off or whatever, get him some help. But if you just address the action, you may see that action again. He goes, all right, I'm not sure I get it, but okay, I'll give it a try. Well, it turns out the guy that day just found out his dad was diagnosed with cancer. And so all of a sudden, he didn't really have to care so much about, and I don't even know if he came into work drinking or not, but he was acting funny. Now all of a sudden, the boss got to say, okay, first of all, you should have told me, because I would have told you to take the week off for how much time. So my point is, that's the importance of that emotional awareness.

So when you see that, if your mind is still there, you can, you can focus on root causes, right? Not necessarily the action, because the action may be insignificant once you figure out why. When it comes to personality, right, that's another thing. You as the leader have to just decide, guys and girls, here are the three or four behaviors that define our culture. Here's how we behave. Here's why. right and that generally should mitigate that abrasiveness of the individual doesn't mean they're not going to be naturally abrasive but when you get to say look here's here's how we do business here's

how we behave separate and independent of our widget and you're a super abrasive guy well that's not part of how we do business so whatever you need to do to get that under control you have to otherwise you're going to be asked to leave because that's not going to you know good order discipline, all that. So does that make sense or did I ramble on too much about it? No, it absolutely makes sense. I know you do. I know you do. And I truly think it's something that we all, we do pay attention to it, whether or not will you do that constructively, I think, is as a real question. Because if you look at most people around you, family members, team members, friends, and why they're behaving in certain ways, it's always going to be an emotional answer.

It's rarely going to be an intellectual answer. But back to your story. And you can keep applying these principles to your story, and I'm curious about this fluidity. We talked about the fluidity of the Seals. I haven't seen the story like yours where then you go join the FBI. You're in counterterrorism, I believe, in New York, but I didn't even know that the FBI did this. Then you're deployed to Afghanistan. You mentioned earlier with Army Rangers. Honestly, I didn't know the FBI was in foreign lands indirect action, kinetic activity. You know, I guess I could assume there's some secretive CIA. I know there's some secretive CIA operations, you know, obviously the military special operators and tier one guys. I just didn't know what's happening with the FBI.

Yeah, so it was a unique program that doesn't exist anymore. And here's the long and short of it, right? So the FBI has its hostage rescue team, HRT. They are as good as it gets, by the way. That is their job. They train combat operations, right? Hostage. rescue all day every day I put them from a skill level and everything else right next to any other tier one unit in the world

and what was happening in the war in terror was you know the seals and Delta and Green Beret and all those guys they were doing a great job of going to smashing targets right but what wasn't they weren't doing a great job at was getting intelligence

talking to people right really being able to exploit what was on that target not just going and smashing everybody and then leaving and so a decision had to be made well who knows how to talk to people who knows how to get information okay quickly with logical questions all right well FBI people are pretty good at interview people that's what we do right we want to get information so we can solve the crimes we can stop the attack okay but the problem was who then can we integrate

with these combat units who, you know, if they know how to handle themselves on the battlefield? Well, HRT knows how to do that. So HRT, their agent, special agents first, right? They learn how to be special agents and then they join HRT.

So their primarily role with being embedded with the SEAL teams or Delta was you get on target handed over to the FBI guy and let him start interviewing, let him start, directing how we collect evidence because FBI guys and

girls know how to do that well they got so valuable and what they were doing they were being over deployed so then they reached out to SWAT operators and people like me who were seals and who had experience

in these combat units and they put us through some special extensive training and then attached us to those units to give them a break and that's how that's how that went down. And it was a great, it was a great marriage. You know, if you did your job, you know, you stuck to what you knew,

but you handled yourself on the battlefield, but you did your job, giving them, directing the intelligence, interviewing, hey, we need to take these people with us. You got a lot of respect. You went on the ops. So that's how that worked out. Yeah. And you got embedded with Army Rangers, another set of elite soldiers,

elite warriors as well. Just one quick curiosity on that. Are H.R.T guys, you just, by the way, praised them to the level of more curiosity for me. Are they homegrown FBI, or they largely former military guys, even special operators? What is the picture of an H.R.T. guy? Yeah, generally, a former military guy who joined the FBI and who may have joined the FBI with their sights on getting to H.R.T. and that's fine right

that's allowed the FBI has a lot of different programs that you can specialize in and HRT is one of them so I would say to the best of my knowledge most of those guys

had prior military experience a few didn't and they just turned out to be great operators you know just that was they were made for it and they joined HRT and they thrived

but yeah I would say it was primarily guys with former military experience. All right, last thing about you that I want to ask about today, following my curiosity, is your passion about leadership. You seem to be, at least to some degree, passionate as well, about something I've had some curiosity.

I think I follow them on Instagram, Wimhoff, and the Wimhoff method. So you're taking cold showers every morning? You're jumping in ice baths? What do I get if I start doing this, which I have not allowed my curiosity to push me yet in the cold shower? Okay, so look, everything I do, I bring it back to my leadership process, okay, in case you're wondering, just because, but that was the reason. So I found the Wimhoff method, and I'm a certified instructor, right? It's a unique form of breathing and cold exposure, essentially designed to reset your nervous system.

Clear your body of inflammation, and so that way the inflammation due to stress doesn't become chronic. and now we know chronic information is really the driver for almost every major disease we see today. And everything I just said, Wim Hof doesn't do anything without a team of scientists following them around. So this is all scientifically studied documented. This is what it does. All right. So I found this because I was doing a two or three day retreat, leadership retreat for a client. And the CEO called me and said, can you incorporate Wim Hof in the week?

And I was like, what the hell is Wimhoff? so I had no idea he goes just call this guy he's an instructor fit him into the schedule no problem and then I look at it and I'm like whoa so my background right

somebody getting into a bucket of ice and just remaining calm I immediately was like what is this I talked to the guy who was going to do the workforce and he spent an hour on the phone with me he was a great guy

as soon as we hung up the phone I started the process to become an instructor just because I was fascinated by it. You know, getting in the tub of ice, keeping your heart rate down, staying in there for, you know, whatever, however many minutes it is. And then, of course, this breathing technique. But then I realized the application it had to people who wanted to be great leaders or just be a higher level of human being. So there's two places to go with it. First of all, if you're doing the breathing in these cold ice baths or showers, what happens? Right. You're releasing the

inflammation from your body. You're resetting the nervous system. You are now calm. You're able to think clearly. You're able to start your day at ground zero every day. If you can do that, you're going to be a much better leader. Okay. The other thing, you want to talk about one of the aspects that we just finished talking about, emotional awareness, right? Well, how do you practice that? Will, right? How do I get better at emotional awareness? Well, if your intention before you go into an ice bath is to recognize your emotions as a drill to get used to doing that I can promise you one thing you won't have to search for an emotion you're standing there in a pair of shorts ready to get into you know 15 cubic feet full of ice you're going to have an emotion so dread that's my it's fine but then you recognize

it and then you say okay my dread usually gets me to run away I can't run away because I'm trying to get better at something else so now my behavior now you're exercising courage now you're exercising come clear it is you get to practice every all of it okay yeah um look hey i'm i get in on everything to some extent and i clearly despite the fact that was a swimmer i wouldn't have been a seal because i tried the challenge but i haven't seen them all through 75 hard tried it made it 42 days my newest one is i'm interested in this this this concept coming out called the 12 hour walk i'm interested in the ice shower the cold shower but i'm I don't know if that's going to be something I can maintain because, and you can appreciate

this, as a swimmer, probably among the things I hated the most in the world was cold water. I hated a swimming coach making me jump into a cold pool. 6 a.m., the rest of the world is still asleep, and I'm supposed to jump into a cold pool day after day from the age of 6 to 18. I didn't want to be doing that anymore the minute I got some choice. Yeah. No, I hear you look. You know, and it's, it is a unique way to do things.

but if you're looking for the 75 hard I'm not so sure I'd do the 75 hard I had a couple of people do it I'm like You know about it You've seen I heard about it Good for them who do it But I'm not doing it But look you want to give yourself a challenge

Do this do a week of cold showers Stay in for 30 seconds Try to maintain some calm You know try not to do that If you do that As little as that You will be exercising your nervous system your immune system will become stronger just a little bit so do that privately though this is the

will kane's own private challenge no i can't do it privately i have to share it with my audience so they can go through it as well by the way if i go cold for 30 if i go cold for 30 seconds am i allowed to then go hot afterwards and warm myself up or am i supposed to just get out from the cold no you can do what you want right you can do what you want there's benefits to get it doing cold last but if you're doing cold cold is good so get yourself warm afterwards if you want to do that you got to start somewhere right we're not trying to start something that's going to be completely awful so yeah get it on cold and then put it on warm and make yourself comfy all right i'm in i'm going to look into it and i will do this um hey this is not going to look into well you do it for seven days or you don't

you turn your night you turn your not to the left that's right i'll make it 30 i can do 30 every day for a week. And I'll report back at some point. All right, Errol, this has been a real pleasure. What a fascinating conversation. I really appreciate the time that you gave me. I've enjoyed getting to know you. Thank you. Likewise. Thanks for having me out. It was a pleasure. There you go. I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Errol Dobler. Again, check out leader193.com or the online academy video series where you can understand the process, art, and science of leadership. I'll see you next time. Listen ad-free with a Fox News podcast plus subscription on Apple Podcast, and Amazon Prime members, you can listen to this show, ad-free on the Amazon music app.

From the Fox News Podcasts Network. Hey there, it's me, Kennedy, make sure to check out my podcast. Kennedy saves the world. It is five days a week, every week. Download and listen at Fox Newspodcast.com or wherever you listen to your favorite podcast.