Will Cain Country - Happy New Year from The Will Cain Podcast!

Episode Date: January 1, 2024

Happy New Year from The Will Cain Podcast! On today's episode, Will revisits his insightful conversation with former South Carolina U.S. Congressman, Host of Sunday Night in America, and The Trey Gowdy Podcast, Trey Gowdy, for a conversation about his new book Start, Stay, or Leave: The Art Of Decision Making. Trey and Will discuss how the philosophy of the book has applied to their own lives, as well as a look at the current state of Congress and the conservative movement. Tell Will what you thought about this podcast by emailing [e-mail] Follow Will on Twitter: @WillCain Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

For a limited time at McDonald's, enjoy the tasty breakfast trio. Your choice of chicken or sausage McMuffin or McGrittles with a hash brown and a small iced coffee for five bucks plus tax. Available until 11 a.m. at participating McDonald's restaurants. Price excludes flavored iced coffee and delivery. Happy New Year from the Will Kane podcast. What's up? It is Wilcane of the Wilcane podcast. It is January 1st. It is 2024. A year which promises to be insane. Insane economically. Insane politically. Insane geopolitically. It is going to be a year to be remembered. We're going to need some guidance as we make our way through this year,

both as a citizenry, professionally and personally, and the best way to go about making decisions. Now, as we are speaking today on January 1st, I am on vacation. I am either nursing the wounds of Texas losing in the college football semi-final, or I am exuberantly waiting one more week for the national championship game, something that you can guarantee this week we will be discussing, that I will be going insane over the Texas Longhorns. But before we get to that later this week, as we prepare for the new year for 2024.

I thought it might be good for us to revisit a conversation we had last year with former congressman and Fox News contributor host on the Fox News Network, Trey Gowdy, who has a new bookout that's about the process of making decisions. It's one of the most fascinating conversations I had of the year, not just intellectually, not just analyzing the decision-making process, but talking together about our process. personal lives and how we went through the process of making decisions. And I did think it was not just something worth remembering, but something useful as we do go into a year of chaos. I think we

should make it our goal that while we're surrounded by chaos externally, internally, with our personal lives and our families, we exert control and we make wise decisions. And I thought Gowdy was an awesome conversation on how you go about making those decisions. Here is that conversation with Trey Gowdy. Yes, Trey Gowdy. I hate to break the news to you. This podcast is on video. Well, I would have fixed my hair had I known that.

Maybe. Actually, that's not true. I may not have. It's so cool to my house. I can't afford heat because I don't have the same contracts that you and other Fox people have. I essentially do it for free, so I can't afford heat. I got to work in the pocket.

Nothing makes you look more like a politician than pleading poverty. against the available evidence. And by the way, I don't think your hair is kind of your thing. I definitely have never seen you without your hair styled. And, I mean, I think in politics, you probably own the award for the most varied hairstyles over your public persona. I think you had a long hairdo. Did you have a mullet?

You definitely have sort of a trim on the sides, high on top going on right now. How many different hairstyles have you had while facing the puck? You know, I mean, somebody who was really bored counted and they got to a dozen and I think they got tired. Here's the thing. I think God has a sense of humor. He said, look, I could do everybody in favor and make you bald or I can make it where your hair is completely unmanageable.

That you either have to wear it super short, which my wife didn't crazy by, or wear it really long, which I would love to do, but that's not great for politics or for television, by the way. I'll let you in on a secret. Last year, half the year when I was doing television, my hair was in a ponytail. You couldn't see it. I mean, I've cut it since then because ponytails just don't look good on old men. So I would wear it or really long.

In the middle, it just, it looks like a, there's a word, is it maelstrom? There's a word for violent upheaval. That's what it looks like. Hey, we are going to get, which I do not think is entirely disconnected from this conversation we're going to get to your book start sit stay in just a moment but has in which by the way during the pages of this book you take us back through your life and the different decisions you've made for your career and your personal life as well and how you made those decisions but throughout your life has your hair been sort of a thing like in high school were you a guy who's like oh

who's tray he's the guy with the hair has hair been your thing no you know in high school do you I remember wings when you kind of parted it down the middle and had wings? Yeah. It took about an hour to do that with a blow dryer. And then in college, I just said, look, I don't have time for this. I cut it really, really short. I think it was, you know, once you get in the courtroom and they tell you, you have to have this certain kind of hairstyle if you're going to be a prosecutor, I just, I can't get mine to do that. It is, you got a double cowlick, which means you have to put, like, literally,

liquid glue to get it to stay down. That stuff we used to use in school, liquid glue, you got to use that. So my wife never really talks about it. My mom never talks about it. So the two most important women in my life never mentioned it. But lots and lots of other people do. All right. So a couple of comments.

Then we can move on from Hair Talk with Will and Trey. We're not that far apart in age. But the goal with wings was when you put a hat on for us. You want a hat on, and then you want the hair kicking out the side. So it's almost like you had airplane wings going back. Second, we used Murray's pomade back in the day because really all you had was hair spray and gel. And so you had to go to literally what it was called was the ethnic section, whatever it was back then, CVS or Walgreens. And you bought Murray's hair pomade because it was thick and that would keep your hair down.

And that's what we did to tame the main. Now, I want to ask you a question that just kind of pops in my mind. I want to have this conversation just following each little bit of curiosity. as we talk. I have a good buddy who is a trial attorney. He's made, I think, a really unique career in that he truly is a trial attorney. And you and I both know that's a rarity in the civil world. He's not a criminal lawyer. What that means is he takes late stage referrals, literally starting at Vodier, starting with picking with the jury, other attorneys will call him up and say, look, we recognize now we don't do a lot of trial work, so you've

specialized. So I'm going to outsource this to you for the actual trial. And he's out of California. He was telling me, Trey, and it just popped into my head thinking about this and talking about you and your trial experience, he still has to wear a mask in California. I was just thinking about your hair and you making arguments in front of a jury. And what a handicap it is to cut out, not all of your nonverbal communication, because you have body language still, but facial expression. What a handicap in talking to a jury. Oh, I can't imagine. I cannot imagine trying to persuade, particularly if you have not been involved in a case for a long time. time. I mean, if you come in after jury selection, then to not be able, think about how hard it is to read someone when you can't see their face. I mean, this is on video. Most of my podcast are on audio only. I can't tell if the person's about to fall asleep, which is not uncommon when I'm doing the questioning on my podcast. I can't tell. Kudos to your friend. If he can pull off being an effective trial lawyer wearing a mask. Kudos. He must be really good. What made me think about that, Trey, is we're going to talk about your career. I mean, your career not dissimilar to mine in that it's been centered around the ability to communicate with other human beings. And I believe I heard this once and I've sort of taken this quote and just, you know, made it mind by forgetting who to give attribution.

I think it was somebody involved with Ronald Reagan, his communications advisor, said something like, when you are communicating, something like 80% how you look, 15% how you sound, and only 5% what you actually say. And look, it's not just for trial lawyers and not just for politicians. In today's day and age, when we're always communicating through a device, think about how we've cut out at least 80% of human communication. I had a senior trial attorney at the U.S. Attorney's Office that I kind of tried to model my in-court actions after. He would begin the moment the jury assembled in the big room before you've even picked the jury. And it would be things as simple as raising his hand and asking a security officer to come over because he wanted the jury to think, well, this man's respected enough that a law enforcement officer would walk over simply because he raised his hand. All of that is nonverbal. So, I mean, you give speeches, I give speeches.

Most people cannot tell you the content of what you said. They can tell you how you made them feel. Right. They can tell you with their general impression. But in terms of content, what I figured out, Will. is if you can convince people, you don't have to convince them, you're smart. Just convince them that you're authentic, that you're trustworthy. I used to tell the kids that were coming up in the DA's office.

The purpose of opening statement is for the jury to think you won't lie to them. So this whole, I'm going to lay out the table of contents, I'm going to lay out the trial. They're not going to remember any of that. They'll remember whether or not they trust you. And sometimes that's content, but more often it's the way you present yourself. Hey, Trey, your kids are a little older than mine. By the way, I know in reading the book, your son went to Clemson, chose it over Stanford.

My nephew, by the way, from West Texas football player, just chose Clemson. So I intend to be spending a little more time in South Carolina over the next four years. He'll be playing for Davo. And so now I have a hard time even saying it. Family is thick, you know. I'm a Longhorn fan. So I don't really know where to place Clemson right now. I mean, do I put blood above, you know, my...

own diploma. I don't know. I don't know what I'm supposed to do there. But your son went to Clemson. Go ahead. Let me help you there. I grew up pulling for two teams, South Carolina and whoever was playing Clemson. I would pull for the University of North Korea if they were pulling for Clemson. Until I met Gabba and the president in Clemson, a guy named Jim Clements. And they are two of the finest human beings. So look, I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to say I'll pull for Carolina and Clemson equally. It's hard to pull against Clemson with Davo there. And Jim Clements, they're president. It's a beautiful school. He's going to love it. It's going to be an incredible experience. It was a top 25 public university. Probably

still is. It's just an idyllic setting for a first school. You actually articulated, I mean, why a kid, and I don't want to share too much business. It isn't mine, but I don't think they'd mind me sharing this fact. I think I've said it on Fox and Friends. What you just articulated is why a kid from Odessa, Texas, West Texas, what I think is the beating, heart of high school football in the United States, bypassed the University of Texas, bypassed Texas A&M, and went to Clemson. And it truly is, from what I've gathered, a unique little petri dish inside the experiment that is college football, and that it's familial.

And that's created by dabbo. That atmosphere, it's just every other institution is truly an institution. They are factories that churn out big time college football players, but this one actually feels, and everybody says it, but I have it on firsthand account that this is uniquely familial. I would say it was unique until Shane Beamer showed up in Colombia. And Shane Beamer has built this. It is a family. Tim Scott and I were down there two weeks ago.

And I'm sitting here thinking we're in the middle of recruiting. National Signing Day has not come yet. Shane, why do you have two hours to hang out with Tim Scott and me? Should you not be like trying to get somebody to come play tight in for us? Texting some 16-year-old. Right. And as it turns out, He gets a five-star, the top-rated athlete in the recruiting class.

Shane and Dabo have a lot in common. They are, you would love to let, to trust your son with them for three or four years. They're just, yeah, I mean, Sabin scares me. I'm scared watching Nick Sabin's press conferences. I've never been terrified of them, man. Have you made? And Dabo? No, I'd love to, but I'd say I'd love to.

And he's intimidating in person as well. He's scary. Yeah. Dabo and Shane, you feel like you could play 18 holes of golf with, go eat dinner, and your friends for life. Shane Beamer last Saturday, and for those who don't know, he's a coach of the University of South Carolina, I get this voicemail.

And I'll think, that can't be from Shane Pember because of Saturday morning. He said, read your book and he went through my book. So clearly he read it. I mean, I'm not, I don't think my wife's read my book. And I'm sitting here thinking this Saturday morning. I'm not a recruit. I don't have any money. I can't donate to your football team. Why are you calling me? That's just who he is. I'm a big fan of Beamer from a distance. I truly am. That's not a gratuitous compliment. So here's what I wanted to ask you, again, before we get to the book, start, sit, stay. You know, talking about my nephew and talking about your son, you have kids

a little older than mine. And so in talking about nonverbal communication, I truly wonder, Trey, like, do we not have an entire generation now that's kind of, I don't know, not practiced, not trained, not experienced in communicating in any other way outside of one narrow, one narrow way of dealing with other humans. I mean, you know, I talk to some buddies sometimes. I talk about meeting kids and like flat affect, no emotion, nothing nonverbal. I'm sure that's not your son, by the way. That's not a personal question. Other than you've had experience with the generation, mine are one step lower. You've had experience with the generation.

I have to wonder if they're not learning nonverbal communication. Yeah, I mean, my kids are lucky in that their mom is the most effervescent person who's ever been born. And you're going to have to talk to her, whether you want to or not. I teach a college-level class and I teach a law school level class. So that's a better barometer for me. It's a classroom full of teen to 27-year-olds. And I just make them get on their feet. Well, I make them communicate.

I don't let them use the word like and I don't let them tell me what they feel because I'm not interested in what you feel. I want to know what you think and I make them get on their feet and communicate with eye contact and I'm teaching a class right now at a law school and right now we're just on how to use your hands

while you talk. Oh, really? So, yeah, I think they're going to be fine. I just look for us, Will, I mean, my parents thought I watched too much television. 30 minutes a week is what my dad let me watch. And he thought that was too much. So I'm sure every older generation thinks the younger generation's not going to make it because they're addicted to video games. I worry about social media for other

reasons. I don't think we should care what people who don't know us think about us. I don't think we should care. And I see the mental health epidemic with young people because some stranger is commenting on your body shape or the way you look or that's what I. That's what I worry about is letting all these voices in our heads. So not disconnected, Trey, from our conversation about, no, I'm not going to make any allusions to whether or not it's connected to our conversation about your hair. I have read, start, stay, leave. By the way, I always mess it up when I say it.

I can't get the three words in a row, but I've actually read all 250 pages of it. I promise you, Trey Gowdy. Start, stay, or leave. I want to ask you a question which you answer in the book, okay? You talk about your life. about your different career iterations. Do you have any regrets? Oh, a thousand. I cannot imagine, but I want to be careful how I say this, I can't imagine saying there's nothing in my life that I would not do over again. I can't, whether it's something I said that, I wish I had not said

in anger. I didn't do well in high school academically. I didn't care. I didn't try. I would love to have a chance to do that all over again. I'd major in something else. If I went through college, I don't know that I would run for Congress if I had to do it all over again. I mean, that one's tough, Will, because I met people that, I met the guy that will preach my funeral. I met the two women that will read Bible verses at my funeral, assuming they're not the ones that kill me. But sometimes we get a remembrance.

What we thought was a regret is really just a really beautiful remembrance. I mean, we learn a ton from our mistakes. So, yeah, I could write an incitial. Wikipedia on the things I would do different. You know, your book, and I almost texted you the other day, but your book, in one way, I want to say hit me at the right time, but in another way, I want to say, I think I'm always in this moment of deciding, and maybe we all are. I'm always in this moment of asking myself whether or not I should start, stay, or leave

something. And when you got to that part about regrets, you know, one thing I really strive to be, Tray, is self-aware. And a little bit like you, I want to be able to admit, hey, I made a mistake or I have regrets, tell me your response to this, I don't have a lot of regrets. I'm certainly introspective to the point of fault. Like, I think if you said something to me, I could be paralysis by analysis type of person at times.

But I think that anything I've done has led me to the point at where I am. And I learned something from that. And I think I'm inherently somewhat forward looking then about what's next. And so I don't know if I'm not spending time on it, but I don't feel myself, I certainly don't think everything I've done is perfect. I think that's different, right? But I don't know that I have regret. Yeah, I think you raised a great point, Will.

And there's a line I put in the book that I have regrets and beautiful remembrances and have a hard time telling the two apart. I mean, some of the things that I wish I had done differently, like do better in college. But at the expense of some of the guys that I'm friends with that I will be friends with until the day I die. So, you know, time management probably is my biggest regret. this belief that I could not have done both, could not have had really deep, meaningful relationships with my fraternity brothers and others, but also done a little better academically. I spend zero time relitigating the past. It is the one thing in the world we can do nothing about.

But I don't want anyone to think that I think that I made all the right decisions. I spend zero time going back wondering if I had written Halliberry and ask her to go to the prom, would she have gone? I spend zero time thinking about that because I think the answer is still no. However, I've learned a lot from the mistakes I've made. I really have. So you and I don't know each other well, but in a way I know you better than you know me because I've read 250 pages about your life. So I'll expect the favor to be returned one day.

But I do find some kinship in that, look, we're both attorneys. I do think we approach the way we think about things fairly similarly. And I don't know that I'm going to say this is a regret, but there's a motivating factor in my life going forward based upon the fact that hasn't been part of my life in the past that is similar to yours. And that is South Carolina is very important to you, and not just South Carolina, Spartanburg. And Texas is very important to me. And I spent 15 years in New York City. And I don't regret that time. It's very interesting, exciting place to live.

And the people that I know will always be part of my life like you described. But I know going forward, I want to live in Texas. It's important to who I am. And I think when I look at your book and you go through the decision tree of, should I start something, should I stay at something, should I leave something? The hardest one for me personally is should I leave something? Because there is Protestant work ethic, really abstract concepts of what it means to be a man and not to quit and not to fail and to stick it through and to grind.

The hardest for me, Trey, is when to leave. You know, I would say this about leaving, Will, it's one of my many weaknesses. I have a fear that I will overstay my welcome. I've always wanted, you know, I tell people all the time, they can't miss us if we never leave. I want to jump out the window. I don't want to be pushed. Interesting. So I wanted to leave the U.S. attorney's office before judges wondered why I was sticking around.

I wanted to leave the DA's office before people said, you know, he's lost his passion for victims of violent crime. And I wanted to leave Congress not just because I didn't want to be there forever. I also didn't enjoy it. So what I would say to you is you and I got one shot at this, one shot at life. So if you feel like you have gotten stagnant where you are, or you're not learning as much as you want, or you are settling rather than striving, and maybe it is time to see if there's another, but there's a reason I got a section called stay. I mean, sometimes staking doesn't have lure of something new and exciting, but think of all the times, Will, we have stayed. We have

stuck with something, even though it can only be new for about a week. And then after a week, I mean, we're not starting something new anymore. We're staying. Right. So I have this fear of overstaying my welcome. I hope you don't have that fear. But that's kind of why I'm I leave. I don't want to overstay my welcome. You know, that's interesting. You've, I've heard the saying, you know, always leave them wanting more. And that's going to encourage one to leave. But you know, what's funny, Trey, is I say that I, like so many things in like, I go, Will,

are you all talk? I mean, my career is a little bit like yours in that it goes in like three to five-year cycles, let's say, I do something for three to five years. Then it's time for something new, you know? And so maybe I don't have a problem with leaving. Maybe I feel guilty at times. You know, I have a buddy who's a value investor. He's very into Warren Buffett, and he has a fund.

And he always talks to me about, you know, and we point to examples of other friends of ours who have done something and grind it away for 10 years. And then the windfall comes because you put the chips in this, you know, in the nest. And now it's time to reap the rewards. And I look at myself sometimes and I go, you left right after you did all the hard work. Like now was the time to cash in on the work. stay and get the next contractor, get the next, or see the windfall of the investment or whatever it may be. And so I guess I haven't, even though I abstractly am all talk about it, I haven't stayed, you know.

And that's the struggle always for me. I have no problem, Trey, starting. Starting is not a problem. I don't have a fear of failure. I'm not worried about those things. Start is easy for me. Stay is harder. I talked to a guy this morning that has been in the House, could have been in the Senate, was the CIA director,

and was the Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo. There's only one thing left for him to do. I mean, there really is only one job higher than what he's done already than the guy's in his 50s. So I think to myself, okay, I know Mike pretty well, but I don't know what he sees in that kind of last image, what he wants people to remember about him. So what I try to do is, okay, so Will Kane, what do you want him to say? To me, at this point in life, I want him to say he was a good, husband, a good father, a good friend. He was fair and sometimes funny. That's enough. Money has

never been my weakness. I mean, I want enough to pay my daughter, Sephora bill. That's not my weakness. If it were my weakness, probably failing being a judge to failure. It's not even a desire for success. I don't want people to say he was a failure. But, Trey, is there something deeper than that? And again, again, I've spent 250 pages with you. You say, I said it a moment ago. Okay, this is, I'm actually fascinated by this because to some extent, your book is psychoanalysis, not just of the reader, but of the writer, right? And we spend some time talking about me, and now it's about you as well. You said to me a little bit earlier in the conversation, you said, I don't think we should care what strangers think of us. But then you say your weakness as well is being a judge to failure. Now, you may be able to draw a line for me between those that know you and those that don't. Your reputation, Spartanburg versus your reputation on Twitter. But do you think your weakness then? And I'm not sure mine's money either. And I'm willing to explore my weakness. Do you think that what your weakness actually is is carrying what other people think?

Maybe it used to be, but I wouldn't even say it was, it's never been people I didn't know. You know, when you go back to the town you grew up in, sometimes they have a hard time letting you grow up. I mean, I go to the grocery store now and they remember a story from seventh grade. Yeah. And I'm like, dude, I don't even remember that story from seventh grade. Okay, so I got, you know, kicked out of a church event in the seventh grade. I mean, that was what? Almost 50 years ago.

I'm not on social media. I could not tell you what people on Facebook or Twitter say. It is being a judge to failure by the voices that you do hear. I'm doing better with that because I have redefined, well, my wife helped me a ton. My wife doesn't care. She could care less. She doesn't know what the chairman of a committee is. I think she knows who the president is, but I wouldn't bet a ton of money on it.

So that's just not the way she judges success. So she's helped me judge success differently. And when you judge success differently, then you also judge failure differently. And it's kind of liberating. So this book was really the inflection point, the Bethel moment for those who read the Old Testament, about kind of shedding the old way of judging yourself and embracing a new one and wishing I had done it sooner. One thing you wrote that really does resonate with me is you talk about the final scene, right? What do you want?

Describe your final scene and then backwards engineer how you intend to arrive at that final scene. I've always, or lately at least, I've said to myself, is this what I want them to say in my obituary or in my eulogy? That Will was, look, I'll be real with you in the audience and everybody. Will reach the heights of morning show television host them. He exceeded Matt Lauer. If I did that, you know, or even prime time, whatever it may be. And I'm not telling you I don't. I'm not saying the audience, I don't.

I just ask myself these questions. Is that what you want them to say in your eulogy? Will that be enough for a satisfied life? So it really speaks to me how you talk about that final scene. Yeah, and I'd be shocked, Will, if that is what you do care about. I mean, we all want to be a success professionally. But to be a success professionally and have our kids say, I never got to know them. Yeah.

Or have a spouse say, I'm glad you got to see him in the mornings. I never got to see him in the mornings. Look, we're all driven for success. And I admit in the book, maybe people will say, well, yes, it's easy for you to say this. You've already done things you wanted to do. You have the luxury of saying that should not have mattered as much as it did. Maybe there's some truth to that. But I don't think, like, I like to use Sam Walton as an example.

And when was the last time you thought about San Walton? No, a long time. I think maybe actually I was reading about the biggest landowners in America. and I saw Philip Anshitz listed, and I thought, wow, he married a Walton. And so I thought about the Waltons in that respect, because I was looking at Yellowstone and ranches. How about that? Does that answer your question directly? It does.

How about Roger Stolbeck? How about Tom Landry? I mean, those were house names forever, at least in my household. Yeah. And so the reality is we're probably not going to be remembered by a ton of people for very long, no matter what we've done, except the four. five or 10 that do think about us after that moment. Right. What are they going to think?

Because, I mean, members of Congress are a dime a dozen. They're 435. There have been a lot more than that over the course of time. We're all replaceable. I mean, if I got hit in the head by a stray golf ball this afternoon, which is there's a chance that's going to happen at the course I play, everything's going to move on. They're going to find another host for Sunday night. They're going to find somebody else to do this out of the other.

But there are certain rules that you play where you really are. irreplaceable and that's probably where we all have spent most of our time don't go anywhere more of the will cane podcast right after this following fox's initial donation to the kirk county flood relief fund our generous viewers have answered the call to action across all fox platforms and have helped raise seven million dollars visit go dot fox forward slash tx flood relief to support relief and rebuilding efforts it is time to take the quiz it's five questions in less than five minutes we ask people on the streets of new york city to play along let's see how Take the quiz every day at the quiz.

Then come back here to see how you did. Thank you for taking the quiz. I want to be respectful of your time. I know you have a tea time. But I want to see if I can hit just a few more things here with you really quickly. First of all, the one thing I wanted to hit with you on current events, Trey, was this. I was reading the book and you get to a point where you start talking about what you dislike about politics. And, you know, again, we don't know each other that well.

I don't know that this is a throwaway statement. We don't agree 100% on things, you and I. But who do you agree with 100%? So it's a throwaway statement. But there's a couple of fascinating things about your tenure in Congress. And you relay a conversation you had with Paul Ryan. And you said, I'm not good at this. I'm not good at politics.

And Paul Ryan said to you, BS, you are good at this. And then your response was, I don't want to be good at this. And then you talk about politics and the change you felt it went through from what we're talking about, 2010 to 2018, maybe, in that time frame. And you talk about the Freedom Caucus. and you have harsh words or harsh judgment, it appears, for much of the Freedom Caucus and its motivations. The other day I had Byron Donald's on the podcast here, and I used a section from your book to ask him about his response to your characterization, the Freedom Caucus, and you can correct me if I'm wrong. And I said it in that podcast. If I get it wrong, I want Trey to correct my characterization. But in essence, what you were saying is you feel like much of the motivation for the theatrics is a quest for fame from the individual members and not affecting actual change.

Byron didn't agree with you. He said, by the way, I think it's true that a lot of people are seeking fame, but that the Freedom Caucus, each and every individual member is attempting to represent his constituents, and there's a lot of difference in Republican beliefs these days and that thing. I just want to ask you about your view of the Freedom Caucus. Yeah, well, I mean, you think back on the founding members of the Freedom Caucus, some of them were my very best friends in Congress. So it's not, I mean, Jim Jordan, I not only. handpicked for everything that I had a chance to do. I went and lobbied the speaker to put him on a committee because of how hard he works and how much respect I have for his work ethic.

So I love Jimmy Jordan. Nick Mulvaney was a founding member of the Freedom Caucus. I got a ton of friends that were there. So it's not all of them. But there are some that figured out the path to fame or their perception of power was not in criticizing the other team, but in criticizing their own team. And there's a time at a place for that. I think it ought to be done privately at first, and then if it's not successful, you can do it publicly. What I really never understood, Will, is we're going home in August.

All right? We're going home in August. That's when the town halls are. That's when you get everyone together. Is really the highest and best use for us to relitigate a speaker race, or is the higher best use talking about something else. And I see these letters that are promulgated right before we go home in August by defunding this or defunding that. My favorite was Obamacare, that we, if only we tried hard enough, we could get Barack Obama to sign a bill undoing his signature legislation. I don't know in what universe that's ever going to happen.

Now, you can argue if we take the House, take the Senate, win the presidency, we will undo it. But that wasn't the argument. The argument was if only we yell louder, try harder, we can get Barack Obama to sign the repeal of his signature piece of legislation. And as it turned out, when they got the House to send it in the White House, they still couldn't undo Obamacare. If it came across that that was an indictment of the Freedom Caucus itself, then I wrote it poorly. A lot of those guys are very, very, to this day, good friends of mine. there are folks within that group that can never have influence or power in the larger group. So they want to start a smaller group where they have more perceived influence and power.

I don't know. They couldn't make it at the big high. Right. So they wanted to start a smaller height. Look, like I said, my characterization could be off. So I don't know that you indicted the Freedom Caucus at large or if, like you say, you know, a constituency within. I'll leave that to your testimony, which should be heard. and the reader.

And so I trust you. And the hard thing is always separating between legitimate criticism of your own party and that which is done because I think everyone watching can agree, everyone listening can understand that there is fame or popularity to be gained in winning the battle of I'm more conservative than you, right? Or I'm more dyed in the wool than you. And the hard thing in vetting that out will be who's offering legitimate criticism and who's doing it for the path to fame and popularity.

And your perspective that I don't have is understanding the mechanics within Congress of knowing when you can effectuate change and when you're doing it for theatrics. I'll give you one example, Rod Rosenstein. We all wanted to interview Rod Rosenstein under oath. I had 36 pages of questions for Rod Rosenstein. And you can imagine. And I wasn't through writing him out. Yeah.

Yeah. And he very much did not, very much did not want to come for a deposition, very much. And we had to fight the White House. And by the way, that was a Trump administration. And the chairman of judiciary said, we're going to subpoena him if he doesn't come. So we had it set up. He was going to come in a skiff. So you can't say, well, that's classified. I can't talk about it. We were going to do it in a skiff, deposition, no time limits. It wasn't the Democrats that stopped that. It was members of the Freedom Caucus, some of them, who said, if we're not going to be in the room and we're not going to be able to participate, we don't want it to happen. So what happens? We have a public hearing where instead of 36 pages of questions, members get

five minutes to make a speech. And it was a completely worthless exercise. So there's the dichotomy. Do you want a few members to depose someone for 12 hours, or do you want everyone to have their five minutes of infamy? And a lot of my colleagues picked their five minutes of infamy over the deposition of Rob Rosenstein, who, by the way, was never deposed. I want to save the last two questions for back to the book. So, Trey, just let me ask you one last thing on current politics. Do you like the current direction of the Republican Party at large? Look, I talk about this. There's something, something has changed.

And I think a lot of it's been positive, Trey. And I don't think it's all been theatrics. I think some of it's in, if not policy philosophy, more popular. focused on the middle class, focused on the forgotten man, as Amity Schles wrote about during the Great Depression. I do think that republicanism got a little bit too tied because of our belief in capitalism tied to the success of a few, I think, and not concerned enough about those who lose. How about this at corporatism? And I just, in some ways, I'm pretty excited about the skepticism. You don't want to be cynical, but the skepticism towards institutions within the Republican Party.

and the focus on populism. But as you look at a coming presidential election and you just left it and you were dismayed with what it was, are you concerned, excited? What is your attitude towards the direction of the Republican Party? Probably uncertainty. This battle between populism is the word that's used and more doctrinaericism. Conservatism I can probably explain. It's limited.

It's less. Right. It's more for the individual, more for the family, more for the state. I mean, my definition of conservatism is a limited federal government that excels at what it does do, but it's limited. And that's a tough argument to make. Very. You know, I think back, we've got these two Senate races coming up in Georgia. And President Trump was still a president at the time with, if my memory is correct.

Yes. So we began to advocate for even more per person COVID relief. Yes. Okay. That's popular. conservative would say, we're going to do an accounting. And if COVID and the pandemic has impacted you, that's a government taking. We're going to make you whole. Right. If COVID or the pandemic has not impacted you, you're not going to get a windfall. That to me is conservatism. What I began to see was electioneering. What can we do to win the election? And some people may say, well, that's the purpose. We have to win. That's where I kind of lost interest in politics. I think the way you do things matters. every bit as much as the result.

And I would rather lose with a set of deeply held conviction than try to become more amorphous. You know, and again, this is proof positive will. I'll never run for anything ever again, because this is a wildly unpopular comment. But the majority can be wrong. Yes. So there's a difference between majoritarianism and correctness. And the fact that something's popular doesn't make it's, I mean, it's right. I think conservatism tells people what they ought to hear, what they should hear, what they would benefit from hearing, and they persuade them, and populism is more finding out what they think or believe right now and giving it to them.

Oh, man, and I mean it. I want to be respectful of your time, and you can tell me how much, if I want to return to the book, I can't help but pursue my curiosities. You know, first of all, I don't think saying the majority is often wrong is going to, you know, somehow disavow a future. Republic office. I mean, it's the reason we have a constitutional republic. It's based upon that idea. We're not a democracy. We have a constitutional republic based upon the idea that majorities can be wrong. So I think that's self-evident. And I think the deeper fools philosophical issue for the right. I'm not going to say republicanism. I'm not going to say conservatism for the right right now is something you're alluding to. And I'm going to tell you,

Trey, it's something I struggle with. Because if you had asked me five years ago, Trey, and I'm a person who wants to own his own evolution or even when he doesn't know, right, I would have said exactly what you said. I would rather lose with deeply held convictions. The problem is, and you'll hear much of the right say this now, then you just lose and your convictions lose along with you. And if you don't win, and I get your side of the argument, but what if you win and become your enemy, then you didn't win, you know? So it's this really awkward place that we're in right now where, and you may agree or disagree with this, that much of the left doesn't play by the same rules that you are going to impose upon yourself. And so all you've done is, is convict yourself

of loss. You're going to lose. And if you're noble and lost, you're noble and lost great, but your nobility lost as well. The very first podcast, when Fox said, we couldn't get our first 10 choices, we need you to go do a podcast. And they said, you can pick whatever to do it. I did it on fairness will and what being treated unfairly does to you. It recalibrate your own definition of fairness. And you become that which you never wanted to become. It changes you. When the other side, or really, it never was the Democrats, which I wrote about in the book, I didn't have high expectations. I mean, they were going to oppose me. The media was the bigger shock for me when I got to Washington. Right. Headwind, this neutral arbiter really wasn't neutral.

at all. And so it does begin to change you and you think, okay, you're doing whatever it takes to win. We'd be foolish not to do whatever it takes to win because we tell ourselves, the fate of the country, the fate of the world depends upon us winning, and therefore the end sometimes justifies the means. And I do get that. I just get, when I told Paul, I don't want to be good at that. That's what I met. I'd rather be in a system, and there is a system that says get the right result and do it the right way. That is a system that I loved. So I'm not naive. I know they're going to run. Look, Will, they're funding the more extreme candidates and primaries because they're easier to beat in a general. I mean, that's a high level of maneuvering and electioneering and

Relativism. I get that it happens. I just don't want to be part of it, if that makes sense. Yes. And that's going to bring us home. Okay. And by the way, I'll say this on, I would love to talk to you more on or off air, okay, because I think this is a fascinating conversation. And I do think you're, I'm not trying to play Mr. Populism or Mr. More Conservative than somebody else. All I'm trying to do is be right and I'm evolving as time goes on. There was a time when I was perhaps more principled in, in quote, unquote, libertarian economic belief. you know, but, but today, you know, how big is Spartanburg? County is about 300,000. The city itself is probably 40,000. Okay.

Sherman, Texas is 30,000 on its way to 40,000 where I'm from. And I think about those people a lot, you know, and I think about, and by the way, it's on the rebound. It's on the rebound right now. Factory's moving in, but for much of its history, the middle class jobs and the factories outside of town were shutting down, you know, and I think about those people a lot. And sometimes I think, where did this libertarian principle take them? And so, but I don't always have the answer to what that is.

And so, anyway, the point of that is I would love to continue a conversation on or off air about this future, both personally and for conservatism. But we'll land the plane with this, that conversation with Paul. Can I share one thing with you that I want you to reflect on? Because I don't know the answer. And that is which came first. Is politics a reaction to the electorate saying, when it all costs? that we have to win. If we don't win, we can't govern. The other side is terrible. Did that bubble up?

Or is that what we were offered from a candidate standpoint? And therefore, the people, because, you know, Congress gets criticized a lot. And I'm not there anymore. I'm not defending them except to say every one of them was elected. So are you really upset with Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez or Jim Banks? Or are you upset with the people that sent them. It's easier to pick on someone we don't like. The reality is they were sent there by a group of your fellow Americans. So did it bubble up or is it all we were offered and therefore we had to choose between two bad choices? And the other thing, because you're a lawyer, will there ever be a moment when persuasion kind of re-enters politics where it's hard to move people from where they are.

Right. But it's what we as lawyers do. We persuade people. As opposed to affirmation. Or I'll watch. Yeah, ratification. Ratifying what someone already believes as opposed to moving them somewhere that they didn't think that they could go.

Right. Okay. We could go on for this for a long time and I would jeopardize your tea time. So I'll bring it back to the book. Okay. Start, stay, leave. And I'll go back to that conversation with Paul Ryan and you saying you don't want to be good at this.

So this will be the last. two questions for you on this. You know, I found it fascinating when you left. I believe it's when you left the federal prosecutor's office. You were a federal prosecutor. You were what we know of in Texas as a district attorney. Can't remember. Solicitor General in South Carolina, which was an elected office.

And you were talking about you're really good at it, which I believe. And I think anybody that watched the Benghazi hearings would understand. You're really good at it, you know, good at being a trial attorney. And it's interesting in life, I think we convince ourselves when you're good at something, then you should be doing it. It is a life fulfilled. The idea of leaving is so much easier in the face of failure. It's really hard in the face of success. And as I read your book, you know, and I kind of thought, you know what Trey is? Tray is a prosecutor. Like, that's kind of more than a politician. You wanted a define set of rules. I think you're even saying that in this

conversation. A fair game. And then let's go get it. Let's go make our arguments. You seem to have been built for the courtroom. Do you have regrets about walking away from that success? A little bit. I mean, Murdoch is going on right now. I'm sitting there, you know, wishing I were in the courtroom because I see something that should have been done or done differently. And, you know, my daughter is going to be a trial lawyer.

So I talked to her a lot. I left Will because it was wrecking my faith. I couldn't reconcile the crime scene photos with what I was, you know, hearing on Sunday morning. So I tried to get out before it was all gone. And I think I left too late. So if I were to go back, it's hard to go back. It's hard. I mean, the DA now was my number two guy. He's amazing. I hope he lives forever. There's also this nostalgia that sometimes when we're gone, we remember the really great parts and we don't remember judges telling us, hey, come down to my chambers. I'm not happy with one of your employees. I mean, I blocked all that out.

So I love that job more than any other job. But I still think leaving was the right decision, and it's hard to leave something that you love. It's hard. Don't go anywhere. More of the Will Kane podcast right after this. Hey, I'm Trey Gowdy host of the Trey Gatty podcast. I hope you will join me every Tuesday and Thursday as we navigate life together

and hopefully find ourselves a little bit better on the other side. Listen and follow now at Fox News Podcast.com. I'm Emily Campanio, and this is the Fox True Crime podcast, bringing you closer to the story than you ever thought possible. Subscribe at Fox Newspodcast.com or wherever you download podcasts. These are the stories that keep you up at night. But what you just described is such a great reminder, and this is what we'll pick up in the book as well, is being good at something is only the fulfillment of your personal ambition, and you had a different hierarchy than even success. and that was, as you just described to us in that respect. And it can come in many forms.

And maybe I'm sacrificing too much for my family, my time with my kids, to be good at something. And in that case, the highest of hierarchies, you know, is wrecking your faith. So I think it's understandable. And it's something maybe all of us will look at, like, success isn't number one. It's number three, you know, and one and two can't come at the compromise of three. And now I'll lead to my last question. And I don't even know how to ask it, but it occurred to me halfway through our conversation at that time. It seems to me, I think all men, I don't know about women, because I'm a man, and I think there is a commonality of thought among men.

I think all men, to some degree, Trey, are pretty focused on legacy. What do we leave behind in some way? I don't even know completely. Do we want statues built of us? Sure. Why not? Do we want our name in the history books? Do we want our children to inherit businesses, whatever it may be?

We want legacy. You were talking about the opinion of strangers. You were talking about Sam Walton being forgotten in a few generations. And then you were talking about the 10 people around you. You know, I could tee you up for the easy answer. That doesn't mean it's wrong, which is legacy is the family. It's the 10 people around me. But we all inside of us, and I'm not sure it's a vice.

It could be a virtue as well. We all inside of us want to leave something lasting. Do you think that's true for you? And how has that guided your decisions? I think it is true. And the duality will is we're probably not going to be remembered for very long by very many people. So we're spending all of this time worrying about something that's probably,

I can't go to the golf course without thinking about a buddy of mine who suddenly died that I played a ton of golf with, ton of golf with. But that's the exception. I associate golf with him, therefore I think of him. I've had other friends that passed away or people I knew and you go months and months or maybe years without them crossing your mind. So it's a small group that's going to feel your loss most intensely. What I would encourage people is when people do think about, if and when, what goes through their mind?

I mean, I don't think we can control the frequency with which they think about us. I mean, my goal will, is for my wife not to bring a date to my funeral. I mean, the reality that she's going to stay off the market is not, I mean, she is not going to, there will be 20 guys from my church. So you give her a week. If I'm asking for a week. Don't take a date to my funeral. That's what I'm asking. But when people do think of Will Kane, what do you want them to think?

I mean, you can't control the frequency. You can't control the volume. But when it happens, what do you want them to say? And if we get to a place where we're okay with that, I think that's a will live life. That is awesome. That's really good stuff. Hey, I think, first of all, you stayed a lot longer. They probably told you.

I don't know what they told you. But thank you. I really loved it. I think people get a lot out of the book. I think they'll enjoy it. Start, stay, leave. Trey Gowdy. It's out right now.

I really enjoyed it, man. Thank you so much. Thank you, Will. And I'm sorry I kept you from whatever it is you're going to do in Texas. And I'm sorry you could not get into Baylor, but you seem to have done really, really well, even going to lesser academic institutions. I'm glad you're proud of your Baylor degree. That's cute. No, I'm proud of the Texas that you're proud of Baylor.

best six years of my life will really as such a south carolina guy i thought you might be like your son and look back on it and go i wish i'd gone to it this is hard for me to say by the way i've never referred to south carolina as u sc except to listen to ainsley airhart say it uh but i thought you might regret not going to usc it wasn't an option my father would not let me go oh yeah he said you can go to the citadel which is a military school or you can go to work those were my two options And so I got my preacher to talk him into letting me go to a Baptist school in Waco, Texas, where I did not know a soul. I did the same thing.

I went to California. I went to Pepperdine for undergrad. UT's law school. What a beautiful setting. Pepperdine. Why did you leave? What a waste of money, Trey. I mean, let me tell you something.

I will never encourage, I mean, you're 18. By the way, you know, my best buddy, my whole life went to Baylor. And so I would go and visit him in Waco, Waco, right? which Waco's now hip. It wasn't hip. You know that, just like I know that. You know, and he was in a fraternity, Waco, or whatever. They had a ball.

And I was like, I'm in Malibu. You know, like, Net, having a good time in college, it doesn't really matter where you are. You could be in a field outside of Waco, or you could be on Zuma Beach. You're doing the same things, having the same kind of fun. You know, Baylor's, I'm even sure you know this. Baylor's on the rise.

I mean, TCU is the one that hit the, the real jet boosters because they got good at football and every Californian goes to, I know that's hyperbole, but I know so many Californians and TCU's enrollment's gone up, but now I've seen as Texas has gotten a little hip and all these Californians are moving here, now I'm noticing Baylor is becoming more. And to be real, Chip and Joanna have been huge for Waco. Baylor's cool. Well, we lost our coach.

Kim Mulkey went to LSU. We had a dominant women's basketball team and Scott Drew's doing a great job with the men, And, you know, losing Matt Rule, but getting Dave Aranda, I think, you know, sports is really what people probably see Baylor. Yeah. I loved it. To show up in Waco, literally not knowing a soul. All right, Trey, this has been really fun. Thank you, man.

Thank you, Will. Take care of yourself. All right, you too. There you go. I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Trey Gowdy. I will see you again next time. Listen to ad free with a Fox News podcast plus subscription. on Apple Podcast

and Amazon Prime members you can listen to this show ad free on the Amazon music app. Fox News Audio presents Unsolved with James Patterson. Every crime tells the story, but some stories are left unfinished. Somebody knows.

Real cases, real people. Listen and follow now at Fox Truecrime.com.