Will Cain Country - Is Luigi Mangione the Next O.J. Simpson? (ft. Donna Rotunno)

Episode Date: December 9, 2025

Story 1: Christmas came early this year, with Congresswoman and professional code switcher Jasmine Crockett (D-TX) locking in her bid for a Texas Senate seat. Will explains why this is actually the best news of the year. Story 2: Is Luigi Mangione, alleged assassin of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson the next O.J. Simpson? Criminal Defense Attorney & FOX News Contributor Donna Rotunno breaks down the challenges in getting charges to stick in what might be the most publicized and controversial trial in recent history. Story 3: Will brings in The Crew to react to his conversation with Donna Rotunno, taking a closer look at just how many Americans believe the killing of Brian Thompson was justified. And in ‘Final Takes,’ Will and The Crew try to figure out why Gen Z is afraid of picking up the phone. Subscribe to ‘Will Cain Country’ on YouTube here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Watch Will Cain Country!⁠⁠ Follow ‘Will Cain Country’ on X (⁠⁠@willcainshow⁠⁠), Instagram (⁠⁠@willcainshow⁠⁠), TikTok (⁠⁠@willcainshow⁠⁠), and Facebook (⁠⁠@willcainnews⁠⁠) Follow Will on X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@WillCain Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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One, Merry Christmas. Open your Christmas presents early. We've got a beautiful one under the tree, Jasmine Crockett for Senate. Two, Luigi Mangione. Could this be the modern day OJ, a case decided not by the evidence, not by the law, but a case decided by the culture of America? Three, afraid to make a phone call, telephobia, afflicting Gen Z. And tinfoil pat goes to Manhattan. It is Wilcane Country, streaming live with the Wilcane Country YouTube channel on this Tuesday.

Happy holidays, Merry Christmas. We have a wonderful present, all of us, to open today under the Christmas tree. We also have a fascinating discussion about whether or not Luigi Mangione is O.J. Simpson. Let's get it into all of it with story number one. Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett has filed the paperwork. It's an early Christmas. She is running for Senator from the Lone Star State. Texas Senator, Jasmine Crockett.

It just rolls off the tongue. You see what we've been missing quite clearly. What we have been missing at a large national platform. What we've been missing in America, according to Jasmine Crockett yesterday in her press conference announcing her senatorial bid, It's what we have been missing is jazzy. Watch. Especially in this moment.

There are a lot of people that said, you've got to stay in the house. We need our voice. We need you there. And I understand. But what we need is for me to have a bigger voice. What we need is not only a voice, but we need to make sure that we are going to stop. All the hell. What we need, you see, is me.

We are totally living in the age of narcissism. It is perhaps even greater than attention, because attention is a downstream currency from the never-ending empty bucket that is narcissism. And I don't think it's just Jasmine Crockett that is screaming out into the void. What we need is more of me. I think it's happening all across the podcast sphere,

what we're seeing with influencers. And I'm not just talking about the left. I'm talking about on the right. We have a never-ending, unfillable bucket of narcissism. Tinfoil Pat, two a days, Dan, hanging out with us here as well today on Wilcane Country. This make no mistake, fellas, is a gift. This is a gift. And I, for one, raise my hand, I am rooting for Jasmine Crockett.

Get mad, yell at me, tell me I'm being sarcastic, I'm being honest. I am rooting for Jasmine Crockett to be, to be, to be, to be clear, to be the Democrat nominee for Senate. The choice right now in Texas is crazy jazzy or fraud liar James Tala Rico. What a choice. Of course, a state representative who's a favorite here of which. Wilcane Country that is a noted lying fraud pawned off on us as a sincere, moderate seminarian. And I, for one, will take crazy over fraud any and every day of the week. Now, make no mistake as well.

This is a gift to you. To you, Dan, to you, Pat, to me, and to you listening to Wilcane Country. because simply from a selfish standpoint, as content creators and even content consumers, we all know what a gift it is to have Jasmine Crockett. We know how great it is. The clips, the moments, the street slang, the dumbing down of American politics. It's quite honestly, if we're being totally truthful, a lot of fun. I mean, how much would you rather have clips of Jasmine Crockett or the faux sincerity of James Talarico?

Which one actually gets you excited that day to wake up and put on your Christmas PJs and run up under the tree? You and I both know it's jazzy. It's because you get other moments like this, like the way to do the unthinkable, to open the mystery door with. the skeleton key that everyone's been missing how do you turn texas blue well the answer is the skeleton key that you reach for it is watch and listen here j c turning texas blue is what i want to talk to y'all about today now there are those that say ain't no way we didn't try it at 50 kinds of ways let me be clear y'all ain't never tried it the j c way

We used to telling us what I can't do, but they have no idea what Crockett's crew will do. And so I just want to be clear, for all the haters in the back, listen up real loud. We're going to get this thing done. Tell me your spine doesn't tingle. Tell me your eyes don't sparkle. The wrapping paper is wadded up in the corner of the room. You are ready to play with your new Jasmine Crockett toy. This is exciting.

Ain't no way we done tried 50 times away, but you never tried the J.C. way to turn Texas blue. It's great. It's so good. It's wonderful. Versus the very calculated and manufactured plastic, cheap from China, play toy that is and breaks and loses an arm within its first 30 seconds, the toy that is James Hallorico. Yesterday, when I talked about this wonderful news of Jasmine Crockett, launching her bid for Senate, What happened but Team Tala Rico, the bots, the farms, the coordinated campaign for James Tala Rico, immediately reposted now his, what, four, five, six-month-old video on the Will Cain show, destroying a Fox News host. Why?

Because they're watching the Will Cain show. They're upset that I have branded him the fraud and the liar that he is. Hey, James, how's Honky Tunk Angel doing? Can we get an update? Are we still trying to book Honky Tong Angel? I don't know. Tonk Angel, the... Patrick slid into the DMs, I've...

Yeah, I never knew, thought I would slide into the DMs of a porn star, but I did. No response, so... Well, maybe you need to buy the only fans account. Fonky, Tongk Angel, the escort only fans. I'll put on the company card. Star. Perfectly accessible. Instagram, hottie, who may not be responding because she really...

does is she's not the true love of James Tala Rico because he spreads his love around on social media. He's been liking multiple escorts and only fan stars or bringing back progressive Christianity. So maybe she's a little ego but hurt that she's not the only love of Representative Talariko. But we still need to slide into the DMs. You might need to pay for an OnlyFan subscription because we have to get in touch with Honky Tonk Angel. But the arm fell off that toy. It's not fun. It's not like Jasmine Crockett. If Jasmine C-Team, he's E-Team. He's cheap, obvious, hypocritical, fraudulent politics. We have to get billionaires out of politics. How much have you taken from billionaires, James, in Texas? We know the answer. It's on the FEC filings. We know

the answer is you take money from billionaires while saying that you want to get money and billionaires out of politics. No, no, no, no. You're nothing. You're nothing like C-Team Jazzy. And I want to open up this forum. This is an open forum. She is welcome here. I can't even promise that I will, I'm not going to be mean. I can't promise a cross-examination. I more want to examine Jasmine Crockett, like an anthropologist. I want to know what makes her tick. I want to, find out who is her constituency. I want to find the Jasmine Crockett supporters. And if we can't get Jazzy on the program, which you have an open invitation to an environment here that thinks you should be the Democrat nominee for Senate, because if nothing else, you have a level of

honesty. I can't go as far as to say authenticity, because I know that the accent is fake. I know the whole thing is a bit. But at least you have a level of honesty about your insanity. And that in and of itself makes you more appealing to me. So if not you a surrogate, if not a surrogate, a constituent. If not a constituent, a fan. James Tala Rico is on only fans. You have real fans, Jazzy. I would recognize that. I don't know if they number more than a baker's dozen, but you have real fans. He's a fan of only fans in Honky Talk Angel. So you have a forum here on Wilcane country. Now, I don't know about your ability to measure your fans, Baker's does in 20,

because I don't really have a lot of trust in your ability to measure or do math or numbers because I don't yet see how you win a general election. You know, how do you beat John Cornyn, how do you beat Ken Paxton, how do you beat Wesley Hunt? in a general election, how do you be a Republican for senator from Texas, because you right now seem to be in the process of subtraction, not addition, and you don't recognize the need in politics for addition. Here she is saying she doesn't need anybody who ever voted for Donald Trump. He has inserted himself at every turn when it comes to your commentary.

How will you convert those who are supportive of him to voters for you? Yeah, I don't know that we'll necessarily. We don't necessarily convert all of Trump supporters. That's not our goal. Do you need to? Our goal is to definitely talk to people. No, we don't. We don't need to.

Our goal is to make sure that we can engage people that historically have not been talked to. So she doesn't need anybody that voted for Donald Trump. So let's figure out the math, like how many people out there just simply don't vote who are interested in politics. And Jasmine Crockett, like perhaps Donald Trump in 2016, can turn those passive political watchers into passionate voters for Jasmine Crockett. It's going to be a wild ride. It's going to be a fun ride. And it is an incredible gift. It's an incredible gift to us all. Jasmine Crockett is running for Senator from Texas.

Merry Christmas. Could Luigi Mangione be the modern-day O.J. Simpson, a trial not predicated on the evidence, not decided by the law, but one, decided by a movement, by the culture. Could Luigi Mangione be O.J. Simpson? We discussed that with a criminal defense attorney, Donna Routuno, when we come back on Will King Country. Hey, you've heard me talk about Buffalo Jackson over the last couple of weeks because they make vintage outdoor leather jackets, flannels, wallets. It's a Western, rugged brand. actually feels like the real thing. And look, it's really cold all across the country this week.

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Listen and follow now at Fox News Podcasts.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. OJ made in America documentary by ESPN feature an interview with a juror, a black juror that said it didn't matter what the evidence said. This was our chance. This was our chance to get back. It was a verdict not on the evidence, but a verdict on the culture. It is Wilcane Country streaming live at the Wilcane Country YouTube channel, the Wilcane Facebook page, the Fox News Facebook page. But you can always follow us on Spotify or on Apple. While not racial, Luigi Mangione, the alleged murderer of health care CEO Brian Thompson, has certainly turned into a movement, a cultural movement with fans of Luigi Mangione, online and in real life, who have turned him into a sex symbol, turned him in to a modern-day Robin Hood, a justice seeker.

To that, by the way, Brian Thompson's colleague tells the New York Post, Luigi Mangione's ghoulish fans utterly disgust me, says colleague of victim, Brian Thompson. that right there shows you that what we are witnessing is something more than a legal trial and it makes you wonder if you'll get a verdict that is something on something more than the evidence and something more than the facts the question is how widespread is that that movement that culture and how much can it impact the trial of luigi mangione donna rotuno is a criminal defense attorney and she joins us now in wilking country and donna do i have this correctly and i think this as apropos of the conversation. You represented Harvey Weinstein. Correct. I did. So you would know something about this concept, this, this idea that I'm considering that

Luigi Manjone could turn into a modern-day OJ. And what I mean by that is the following. Well, I don't, I am not certainly well-versed enough on the facts and the evidence in Harvey Weinstein's trial. I don't think there's any denying that Harvey Weinstein was part of a larger cultural movement. It was the Me Too movement. And it engulfed a lot of people. people, a lot of people, comedians that got canceled, people that got prosecuted, you know you have seen firsthand the impact of something that goes far beyond evidence and far beyond the facts. Now, whether or not that actually played a role in Harvey Weinstein's case, the reason I mention all this up front for you is you've had a front row seat of being a part of one of

these movements and these cultural waves and the way that it can impact a trial. The one that I've invoked today is infamously of the 1990s, that's the OJ Simpson trial. And there's just No debating it. Everybody knows. O.J. wasn't about the evidence. O.J. wasn't about the facts. We've now seen a multitude of documentaries. The best, I think, is O.J. made in America. And they have interviews with the jurors. And the jurors care nothing about the facts. What they were saying was this was a chance for racial redemption, racial revenge. And I'm curious with that and with your experience amidst the Me Too movement. And we'll get into some of the facts with the motions to dismiss. evidence and so forth in a moment, but what do you think the likelihood is that this Luigi Mangione thing simply isn't a legal trial? It's just a cultural trial. I think there's an absolute likelihood of that happening. And I think you're right, very, very true in Weinstein, but really to the opposite facts, right? Like you had so many people, like you're watching in the same building, the building we're watching Luigi go to court in is the same one that I went

to court in every day with Harvey Weinstein at 100 Center Street. And when you walk into the building, you could hear the flash mobs outside against Harvey Weinstein, right? So it was this whole Me Too movement. So you are not only fighting against the evidence in a courtroom, but you are fighting against what's happening outside. And at the end of the day, of course, the only thing that matters is what those 12 jurors think. But the 12 jurors are absolutely influenced about what's going on.

And in the Weinstein trial, could you imagine being a juror and going home and saying to your wife, your mother, your aunt, your cousin, your niece, your daughter. I'm the person who found Harvey Weinstein not guilty. I mean, the movement was so strong that you were shunned if you talked against it. Trust me, I know, I'm the one that got the death threats. So, you know, that does happen.

So I'm absolutely concerned about that here, but I'm concerned about it for the prosecutors, not the defense. Because here, you get one rogue juror, right? You get one rogue juror that says, I don't care what. I know he did it. I don't care that he did it. I think he was justified in doing it, even though there's no legal justification for it.

But that's what we're going to see. And I mean, you see it outside the courtroom. When you hear those people in the streets cheering on Mangione, is one of them saying, I don't think he did it? I think they got the wrong guy. No, they're not saying that. They're talking about the fact that he was justified to do what he did, and they're going to just, they'll die on that hill,

and that it was okay that he acted that way. So I think you're absolutely right. And if I'm the prosecutor, my biggest concern about the case is exactly what you let off with. Okay, I want to dig into that for a moment, Donna. So I actually, this weekend, I watched the Sean Diddy Combs documentary, executively produced by 50 Cent. So that's, I do think that's interesting that 50 Cent produced it. I watched the entire four episodes of four hours with, I think, a healthy level of skepticism,

meaning I understood I was getting one side of the story. But one of the things you come away with that is it's very similar. Crowds outside the courtroom. In this case, in support of Diddy. Now, I think there's a separate conversation that I'm not interested in right now, which is did the prosecutors overcharged Diddy and did that lead to where we got to today? But the point is, I'm visually seeing what you saw, what we've all seen, these crowds outside the courtroom, what's happening on social media.

There are clips in that documentary of Diddy talking about that. He's like, you're not winning Instagram. You're not winning TikTok, talking to his attorneys. He's like, you need to hire the best in PR because we've got to win these things. Yeah, you saw that as well. So back to your experience, okay? So I'm going to take this in parts. The part I want to take first is the trial has started.

The jury has been impaneled. All of that is swirling around the jury, literally and physically outside and online. In that documentary that you watched as well about Combs, they talked about that the jury wasn't sequestered. So I'm curious, do you, so is your concern there, or the thing that can make Mangione OJ is that those 12 people sit there every day, they got to walk in and out of the courthouse. They're probably taking a bus underground. They're not going through those crowds. But they're going home. They're watching the news.

More importantly, they're probably scrolling TikTok and Instagram. is the how does the pressure once the and i'm again i'm asking about once the jury is impaneled how does the cultural movement affect them you you gave a great example turning to a family member going i'm the guy that didn't convict harvey winstein like put that into this mangione scenario for me sure and i think that we have to remember and you know winstein was 2019 20 20 20 trial started the beginning of 2020 the social media influence just gets great greater by the year. So that was probably one of the first trials where social media played an impact, but now move forward to 2025, 2026. The social media boom is so much bigger now even than it was then.

So I think it is a concern not only for what people are seeing. And you know, the judge is going to tell these jurors when they go home at night, they're not supposed to consume any media. They shouldn't read anything about the case. But how realistic is that, right? Unless you take away every tablet, every device someone has. I mean, how realistic is that? You're going home, you're with your kids, your family. They're talking to you about it, even though they're not supposed to. They are.

So I think when you look at it, you have to say, not only are they going to be looking at their feeds, but their feeds are tailored to what they already believe. So, you know, you follow what you follow, right? Like, I guarantee you and I follow a lot of the same things. But if we went over to MSNBC or CNN, they may be following some different things, and they may be getting some different news. But that's true for everybody, right? You're targeted.

You know, I like fashion. And so when I get on my Instagram, right, that's what I see. So if you're somebody who is part of a resistance, or if you don't, you know, like health care, or if you've been vocal about, that's what's going to be fed to you. So, so interesting, Donna. You're a juror. You're a juror in this case.

It isn't what's viral anymore. that's not what matters. It's not who quote unquote win social media. That's not the way you win social media anymore. There's not like my shit is better than somebody else's so it went viral and therefore everybody's going to see it. You're now talking about jurors and my phone is listening to me. It's listening to me, right? Presumably not in the courtroom and presumably not in the deliberation room. But it is listening to me in my car, on the way home, in my conversation with my family. I know I'm not supposed to be talking about the case. but let's get real. We're all human beings. So my phone is listening to me. Then I open up all these feeds, X, TikTok, and it's algorithmically consuming what I'm consuming and then regurgitating shit back to me

that it thinks I want to hear. So if I'm mulling over the idea that Mangione is a hero, I'm going to get an algorithm feeding me people out there saying Mangione's a hero further pulling a juror down a rabbit hole. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And so this is the fear and picking a jury in these cases, you know, we're all obviously

part of the media and we do these things and the media influence is huge. But at the end of the day, the only thing that matters is what those 12 people are going to do. And picking a jury in today's day and age is a completely different animal than it was even a decade ago, even six years ago. So you have to look at these things and, you know, I'm sure everyone involved in this case will jury consultants and they're going to have to look and anybody that has public social media they'll be able to see what they post about and what's on their ex and what's on their

Instagram and they're going to have to make decisions. I'll give you an example. During Weinstein, it's actually kind of funny. Gigi Hadid was one of the potential witnesses in Weinstein. And Gigi Hadid's supermodel, mom was supermodel, she comes in claiming that she can be fair to Harvey Weinstein. we took about three seconds worth of a look at her Instagram and you knew that that was absolutely ridiculous she had posted and posted and posted things about me too but in that courtroom she said I can be fair and impartial and you know so you have to look out for these jurors that may potentially be rogue people that come in and even though they have unbelievably strong feelings one way or another they will say that they don't why because they want to have an influence on

what happens. B, they know this is the trial of the century and they can write a book and they stand to make money. And so there's a lot of things that have to go into determining whether or not you can truly get a fair and impartial jury. Okay, I want to move to some of the, we just had we just had some motions, I believe, to dismiss evidence this week. I want to get into that and just smoke from Mangione. We don't have a trial date set yet, but we're getting ahead of ourselves in that the trial isn't here. We're not going through Vodair. I think you're from the Northeast, so to be fancy, I'll say it your way, voir dire. We haven't had that yet to figure out to figure out who the jury's going to be. I make a joke. I'm from Texas, Donna. I did go to law

school, so that's a little bit like, you know, sleeping at a holiday and express. It gives me a little bit of insight into this stuff. But we say, we say Vodier down here. So for the audience, voir dire, Vodier, that's when you're picking a jury. You're cross-examining essentially the jury and who you're the jury pool to pick and then you're canceling some jurors and you're accepting other jurors. You're exercising your strikes and so forth. Because the other part of this I want to ask you about was not the effect of the culture on the jury once it's impaneled, but picking the jury. Now, my instinct at first in asking you this question was, well, I wonder how popular Luigi Mangione actually is. Like, does he have a 30% approval rating in the culture?

I don't know right that. I don't know. But say I'm the prosecutor, I'm wondering that. I'm wondering, like, I've got a pool. What do you have? To get 12, what are you starting with? You're starting to a pool of 50? Like, how many's on your jury panel to start?

In a normal case that has no media presence and no, they're just a random, yes, we would get 50 to 60 jurors to try to pick 12. In Weinstein, we had, I think, 2,500. So, you know, they're going to have thousands of people. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, 2,500. under. Oh, my gosh. Okay, let's stick with 50 just because it's easier, man. Like, I would be sitting there and going, okay, in this 50, I've got to presume there's at least 10 to 15 that, like, literally think Mangione might be a hero. I don't know. I don't know where we

are, but I'm going to start there. I'm going to start there, and I'm going to read polling. I'm because I want to know what my odds are here of having somebody on this jury that absolutely should not be here. You know what I mean? and this isn't the macro perspective Donna like that's the macro perspective so like I think that's in impaneling the jury that's one of the first things you're going to have to do is like I have to deal with the fact there's a significant percentage of these people in my pool who wouldn't convict him even if he's legally guilty yeah for sure not only do you have to look at that but you have to look at the fact that you know if it's me honestly the way I'm

looking at it I think is not only am I considering the fact that there's a percentage of people who are just going to sympathize with him. But I'm looking at age because I think that the older, the juror, the better chance for the prosecutor. The younger, the juror, the better the chance for Luigi, right? Because you have all of these, this sort of young people's movement that is part of the resistance. They're the same one. They go from there like, you know, what is the cause of the week, right? And those are the people that you kind of want to stay away from.

It's the same in sex cases. If I'm trying a sexual assault case, I don't want anybody on that jury under the age of, like, 45 if I can help myself. So I think that's the first thing they have to look at this age, because I think that'll help. I want to, can we do this? I want to walk through a series of questions. This is in voir dire, okay? And I'm going to ask a couple questions. And will you tell me if I can't ask this?

Because this is something I want to do, okay? Yes. So you just tell me, can I ask this? Give me the yay or nay. Okay, first question. How many people in here are on TikTok? Please raise your hand. Can I ask that?

Yes. Okay. How many people are in? Then I'm going to do the same thing with X and I'm going to do the same thing with Instagram. Okay. And I'm going to focus on those people now. The next thing I want to ask, can, can here's, this is not, this is not, I'm not

role playing now. I'm asking you, Donna. Can they take their phones into the, into Wadir? Can I request that they take their phones into Wadir and have them with them during questioning? So they normally, they have to have their phones off and they have them in a bag or whatever they have with them while they're part of questioning once you're selected your phone is not supposed to be with you it's supposed to be back in the jury room and off a judge will allow you

to like make a phone call to a family member but i want my jury pool to have their phone yeah i don't think the court's gonna it depends on what you want them to have it for i'll reserve my ruling until okay i'm gonna tell you okay okay i would like everyone here who raised their hand on ticot to please let's stick with x because know X by the TikTok. Everyone who's on X, please open up your X app. Okay? This is what I would ask. And then I would ask, I want you to scroll to the top post regarding Luigi Manjone.

And I want to know what it is. I want to reveal what their algorithm is that you and I were just talking about. So in other words, I want to know if somebody's already down the rabbit hole. The algorithm is a mirror. in some ways. It's not a completely true mirror because just because I'm getting content doesn't mean I agree with it or that I like it. It could be just giving you stuff that you gravitate towards. And you can gravitate and read things. Like, I'll bet you I get a lot of crazy crap. Let's just, I was just talking about Jasmine Crockett. I'll probably get anything regarding Jasmine Crockett. That doesn't mean I like Jasmine Crockett, right? But I'll get her content. But I want to know who is getting Luigi's a Hero content. Yeah. Well, you're not going to be able to do that. A court is not going to allow you to, for privacy reasons. However, you will have their name. And so if you have jury consultants or lawyers at your table or, you know, law clerks, you can start to look up their media accounts on your own. Now, if they're private, you will not have any access to. But Donna, that's only going to show me, but Donna, that's only going to show me what they post. I don't care what they follow. I do care. To your point, I do care what they post. I want to know. And but follow doesn't matter anymore, right? It doesn't matter that much.

So I want to know their algorithm. The algorithm is the window now into the human soul. Sure. And if a jury, you need to know the human soul. I want to know your algorithm. Yeah, courts. I don't see a court allowing that to happen for privacy reasons. Jurors are not on trial.

Jurors are there to make decisions. So I don't, at least as of today's laws, that's not going to happen. That may change. And so the problem is we got to figure that out, Donna. We do have to figure out. The court system is always behind when it comes to the advancements and technology, as are our laws, unfortunately. They just are.

Let's take a quick break, but we'll be right back on Will Cain Country. Canada's Wonderland is bringing the holiday magic this season with Winterfest on Select Nights, now through January 3rd. Step into a winter wonderland filled with millions of dazzling lights, festive shows, rides, and holiday treats. Plus, Coca-Cola is back. with Canada's kindness community, celebrating acts of kindness nationwide, with a chance at 100,000 donation for the winning community and a 2026 holiday caravan stop. Learn more at canadaswunderland.com.

Okay, let's get into some of the events of the week. So the defense is moving to get evidence excluded based upon it looks like violation of search and seizure stuff. So, and you can walk me through the specifics. So the cops approached Luigi Mangione and Altoona, Pennsylvania at a McDonald's. He has a backpack, among other things. Inside the backpack is a gun, a suppressor, a notebook slash manifesto, ammunition. The cops do not have a warrant in this moment to go through his stuff, but they do go through his stuff. They, the prosecution and the police say that they're doing so incident to arrest, I believe, right? I think that's the legal terms. terminology, something like that. And it's cataloging what he has on him. And I would presume the police can say this is also for our own personal protection. We need to know what's in the backpack in case he has something that could hurt us, a bomb or something like that. The defense is saying, you didn't have a warrant to go through all that. So everything. He had a to-do list that kind of served as a getaway plan. He had the manifesto. He had the gun. So the defense is saying all of that is for the poisonous tree. It's illegal. You didn't have a

warrant you can't use any of that in court so walk me through that do you think that has a real chance to get all that excluded so i don't think it has a real chance to get excluded i think the defense is doing their job this is something they should do these are not frivolous motions these are motions they should file and when i read them on paper prior to seeing some of the evidence that has come out in court i thought maybe they would have more of a leg to stand on now that i've been watching this last week, I do think that the police actions were appropriate. They approach him. They ask him his name. He gives them a fake name. They have an absolute right to ask you your name. They've gotten a call about a suspicious person. He matches the

description. He has the same bag and the jacket and he walks up, the eyebrows, the whole thing. They walk up, they ask him his name. He gives him a fake name. Right away, that's a crime. So that's right. That's number one. So now they continue to question. him. He answers some questions, not others. Nothing really incriminating. At one point, he says, I think I'm going to remain silent. And this is after they give him his rights. And he doesn't really say much. But then he starts asking questions. So number one, under the law, you have to unequivocally ask for a lawyer. So that's number one. He did not do that. Number two, even if you invoke Miranda, you can waive Miranda at any time. So if you then can,

continue to initiate the conversation. That's a reinitiation under the law, and that's fair game. In terms of the backpack, the backpack to me, the first time they go in it, they go in it, and as the officer's going through it, she is saying, I'm making sure there's not a bomb in here. Now remember, they're in a crowded McDonald's, and we're hearing this on the body camera as it's played in court. She's looking through the bag and saying, I want to make sure there's not a bomb. It's a crowded McDonald's. There's people there. There's employees there. And they are aware of what they believe this person has done on the streets of Manhattan. So they obviously have to take public safety into consideration. It is then that he's placed under arrest. And after he's placed under arrest, the bag is more fully searched and they find these items. And yes, I believe that is a search incident to arrest. I do not believe you need a warrant in that situation under the law. I think it's pretty clear. And in watching the way it's, went down procedurally and the way it went down chronologically, I think the sequence of it, I think the police are going to be okay. I think they answered questions credibly on the stand.

As a defense attorney, I'm always looking at that with a more mindful eye, but I really do think they follow procedure. Do you think even if, okay, even against probability in your estimation, it was granted. The motion dismissed all this evidence. So the gun's out, the manifesto's out, the to-do list is out, everything's out. Let's just presume for a moment the judge is sympathetic. He's like, that's all out. How fatal would that be to the case against Mangione? It would be awful. I mean, what you have then is you have a video of a guy in a bulky coat on a street shooting someone in the back. I mean, there's no doubt that a murder took place, the question is then going to become, can they prove it was him? Now, what they do

have is, and I will say, the New York Police Department did an amazing job piecing together all the video. I don't know if you've seen this, but they have from the time that arrest, or excuse me, that shooting took place. They have him on camera prior, seeing that he was kind of laying in wait. Then they have him getting on a city bike. They have him going through a park. They have him throwing something in the garbage. I mean, they have traced his movements all the way to the bus station. With images, right? With images of his face correlated to these movements.

Correct. He's in a taxi cab where it's the taxi video and you see his face and the mask is, I don't remember if that one, the mask is up or down, but his eyes, it's clear as day that that's him. I mean, it's like a HBO movie rather than a, you know, grainy surveillance. It's a color photo. So I think that they would still have a case, but they would definitely not have the strength of the case that they have with all that evidence. They also have a statement that he makes in Pennsylvania, in the lockup in Pennsylvania, he talks about the fact that he had a 3D printed gun and a silencer.

And he does tell the jail guards that in Pennsylvania. And that's another piece that they're trying to have thrown out. but I also think that statement is fair game. Are they having to try and have that thrown out under Miranda? There. Okay. Let's go full circle, Donna. Now, I want to, this is something that I've learned. I don't know. You're the expert, not me. Like I said, here's the truth, Donna. Like, I grew up around lawyers. My dad was a lawyer. I'm a lawyer. But I'm not you. I haven't tried a thousand cases. I haven't done high-profile cases.

I haven't done high-profile cases. A lot of my friends today are lawyers. And I find that the conversations my friends and I have about cases, despite all the perhaps aspirational views of the law, meaning, oh, this element, this element, this piece, this piece, it is not what you want it to believe that it is. It is not a mathematical equation. Reasonable doubt is not quantifiable. It's not what you think it should be.

What it is, quite honestly, is not so different than what I do for a living. In that, people are persuaded by emotion more than facts and logic. It's simple fact of humanity. And people, in order for their emotions to attach to an outcome, need affirmative stories more than questions, negative stories, and doubt. So you know what I mean? So like, in other words, again, you're the expert, so you can correct me if I'm wrong. You go into a case and you're like, you, the defense, Donna, and the defense.

defense for Luis Mangione. You go into a case and you think, well, all I have to do is create reasonable doubt. In order to create reasonable doubt, I just have to puncture holes in their affirmative story, their positive story. And if they don't prove it 100%, then I should win the case. But the should carries all the weight there. Because those 12 people don't like, I don't know. Human beings don't like, I don't know. We don't like the concept of reasonable doubt. We don't even know what it is, to be honest. What we need is we need another story. We need another affirmative story to attach ourselves to. Because we emotionally gravitate to stories. So it becomes the job of the defense to provide a story that the defense can tell themselves about this.

So they don't even think about reasonable doubt. They just start articulating a new narrative, a new story that doesn't jive with the prosecution story. What is going to be the story for the defense of Luigi Mangione? Yeah, I think that's a tough, that's a tough question. And I think you're right and I think some cases call for that but unfortunately some cases you just don't have it and the problem is you never want to try to sell to a jury that the world is flat because if you do they're not going to believe anything else that you tell them especially if you do have good facts so I always try to say I look at the case and I say okay what questions do I think this jury is going have and I have to be able to answer those questions and if I can't answer those questions whether

it's in a form of an argument whether it's through the the evidence that our witnesses put up if I can't do that we're going to lose and so sometimes you have cases that you know you never want to go into a case thinking you're going to lose but you also have to be realistic about what the evidence shows and you have to prepare a client in a situation where the evidence is extremely tough. And in the case like this, I think their only hope is finding the sympathetic jurors if all the evidence comes in. Because if all the evidence comes in, I just don't know how any reasonably minded person. And for the most part, unless you're talking about a rogue juror, I do believe that jurors try to do the right thing. I do. For the most part, I think they come in.

I think they want to get it right. And, you know, so I think in a case like this, there may not be a story. It would be a real tough case to develop a story on, to your point. Right, because it would be a BS story. That's the problem. Well, well, look, maybe I'm more cynical than you. So right now, they're trying to poke holes. They're playing the reasonable doubt thing.

So let me exclude evidence. That's what they should do pretrial. Let me exclude evidence. Let me just try to make this thing as not rock solid as I want it to be. but once we get to the trial now the evidence is in now their story is we know what the prosecution story is and it looks locked down it looks locked down so i'm sitting there's defense going okay i've done my best to get rogue jurors i've done my best to get you know people who shouldn't be on this jury on the jury now what do i do and i don't know it's like um if i'm right and maybe i'm not right don't know don't maybe i'm not right but i wonder how you start painting a sympathetic picture of luigi mangi mangione and what you start saying, and I wonder if you, I wonder if you go with an insanity defense in, and I don't know when you have to make that claim, but like he was driven to this by broader cultural influences or a corrupt system or the health care system.

He is actually the victim here. You understand? He's the victim of something bigger. Now you're talking about something that one of these jurors can attach themselves to, to excuse Mangione in some way. I would even, you know, this is insane, I know, but I mean, here's the most insane story. This is self-defense. Luigi Mangione is self-defense.

He is at threat, and you are at threat, under a system that is putting all of you as victims in this society, and he did what any reasonable person would do. Now, I know I just told stories that don't fit with what you're allowed to do in trial in some ways, but I do wonder if you're the defense what you do with one that's a loser on the evidence but has some sympathy and support out there with the jury. Well, and you're proving my point. I didn't get into the nitty gritty of the storytelling, but that's what jury nullification is because you're basically asking a jury to do something

that doesn't follow the law. You're basically putting all these other things out there saying right there. So that's what jury nullification is. So that's really, that's why I said, I think that's their only hope. So I 100% agree with you that they would have to come in and they would have to say, here's a kid who came from a good family. He had, you know, the best educations, Ivy League schools, he had a back injury.

The back injury changed him. He ended up having surgery. He was on medication. He was, you know, it's all these things that are not true, affirmative legal defenses like self-defense because they can't make a self-defense claim without being able to prove. prove it right under the affirmative defense responses they would have to give but could they get in front of a jury and tell that yes of course they could and that is why i said jury nullification because that's their only that's their only hope and if you get one or two but explain that to the

audience so you make one of these explain that to the audience you make one of these essentially legally inappropriate arguments right yes you win i guess in some way and then the verdict is nullified like So they're going for a jury notification in some way? Explain that to the audience. Yeah, they come out. Yeah, sure. So when you're trying a case, you're supposed to follow the rules of what that looks like, right? You're supposed to present defenses that are either affirmative or the state can't meet their burden.

If you are getting up and basically saying, yeah, he may have done this. Let me give the listeners an example. The dad who murders the guy who raped his daughter, right? There's no justification for the rape. unless it happens, and, you know, he comes in and finds her being raped and it's a, you know, heat of, heat of passion response. But if he goes and finds the guy three weeks later and murders him at his house, that dad's going to be charged with murder. Are there a lot of jurors that are going to convict the guy? Probably not.

And not because it's a true legal defense, but the jury's going, I'm letting this guy go because he did the right thing, whether the law says so or not. So that's really what we're looking, that's what Mangione's lawyers are going to be. looking to do they're going to be looking to say yeah whether you think he did it isn't really the issue he was justified and you know even though that's not a legal argument they can make it now the prosecutors will object they will say that it's improper but is that enough you know time's going to tell but what happens so then what happens so they make these improper arguments but it's affected the jury and if the jury finds them not guilty they find them not guilty You can't appeal and not guilty.

So the court can admonish now the state could ask for a mistrial and the judge could say you've gone too far and grant a mistrial and then you're starting all over again. So that would really be the only remedy for the state if the defense goes off the rails and does a bunch of things that they're not supposed to do. So that's the remedy for the state. But if the jury goes out and finds them not guilty solely based on the fact that they thought he was justified in doing what he did, there's nothing the state can do.

Is there another, and there's also another path real quick list to this, they find him guilty, but then they give him a super light sentence. In New York, is that a judge sentence or jury sentence? No, it's a judge sentence. Yeah, it's a judge sentence. And honestly, it's going to be a light sentence regardless because the crimes that are left in the New York state court, the most serious is murder in the second degree, which is 15 I believe to life, which you can get paroled at 25 years.

So, you know, the sentence in New York does not guarantee that he spends his life in prison if he were to be convicted. Now, there's the federal case, which you're looking at it. So right, real quick, the charges right now are second degree. Give me, do you have the charges off top of your head? It's second degree and what else? They're second degree and there's a variety of weapons charges. Now, the second degree murder, they had originally charged him with,

first degree, but they charged it under the terrorism statutes in the state of New York, claiming that it was an act of terror. Now, the judge threw it out because the terrorism statute, if you read it fully, the terrorism statute talks about how it has to be a crime against a group of people and that this was a targeted hit against one person. Now, I was kind of surprised, because I thought maybe that was the right decision, but the more I looked into it, I was kind of surprised that the state did not appeal the judge's decision because I do think that there's an argument to be made that when you're going after the CEO of an industry and based on the writings, it was clearly against an industry as a whole. But I think the judge was reading it as he would have had to be going after a group of people at the time the murder was committed. So it'll be interesting to see, but the state of New York did not appeal that decision to dismiss that count.

and second degree carries you said 15 to life 15 to life but it is you're eligible for parole at 25 years wow yeah so that's why the federal charge i don't presume right so so he can be tried in federal court he will be tried so how does that work with the feds they watch it progress at the state level and then and then they can they can wait a little while and then they do what they're going to do at the federal level? They've already charged him. They've already charged him federally, but they're waiting until the state case is over with. They are seeking capital punishment in the federal case. I think it's going to be very similar to give the audience an example, very similar to Derek Chauvin and the George Floyd situation. Derek Chauvin was convicted

in a state court, and then the feds ended up trying him after the fact. So I think it'll be similar to that. Okay. By the way, last question. Do you see, tell me how federal works, is still going to pull from a local jury pool. Would all the machinations we talked about and the importance of the jury apply just like it did in the state court to the federal court? Absolutely correct. Okay. What a fascinating conversation to get us ready here. We're having motions to dismiss evidence as we speak. We don't yet have a trial date. I presume early 2026. Yeah, I would face it. Mid-spring, 2026? Yeah, yeah, agree. All right, for Luigi Manjone. Excellent. I hope we continue to talk. Donor Retino,

thank you so much for spending time on Will Kane Country. Anytime. Thanks, Will. Really, really fascinating. It really helped me out a lot. And something to mull over there with the jury nullification thing and making, quote-unquote, inappropriate arguments to give the audience or the jury a story that they can gravitate to and what that does to potential verdicts. Really, really something to think about. And I think it's the way it's going to play out. Because I think that's the real calculation here. It isn't reasonable doubt. The real calculation here is how do I get certain people on the jury and how can I play to them in doing what they want to do?

All right, you can jump into the comments section to Willis. When we come back, tinfoil pack goes to Manhattan. And young people are afraid to use the phone on Wilcane Country. Tinfoil Pat goes to Manhattan. It is Wilcane Country. Streaming live at the Wilcane Country YouTube channel, the Wilcane Facebook page. And you should jump into the comments. On any of those platforms, follow us on Spotify or Apple, join the Willisha.

There's a lot of you out there who contribute on a daily basis, and we appreciate you. Like Carmilla Canale, who says, my concern is the judge. When all is said and done, what will the judge do in the case against Louisville? Ouija Mangione. Let him go. We've been seeing way too much of going through the legal system and then very little accountability. I'll tell you, Carmelo, I don't consider that same level of concern right now in this case. My concern is over the jury. My concern is with my fellow American. My concern is with the people that sympathize with Luigi Mangione and get on that jury. I actually think that thing that I did with Donna Rotuno, which is really fascinating

conversation, which is let's assume you have a jury pool of 50 people, okay? Here, you guys can answer this in the comment section. Jump in here. Let's assume you have 50 people. All right. They're all sitting in a room. And you know, let's presume for a moment, you're the prosecutor. I can't get any of these people that love Luigi Manjone and think he's a hero on this jury. And if you're the defense, you're thinking, I need to get those people on this jury. How many of the 50 are you actually looking for? 15? 10? What is the number? I don't know. Two of A's and tinfoil.

I don't know if you could, I don't know if AI, because AI is bad at this. We've all experienced how AI is actually not good at anything recent or current. Is there some kind of poll out there? Like how much support he has? Broadly in America. I'd love to know. Look that up for a moment, two of days while I read you more from the Wilicia. Suzanne Niko, also a frequent commenter, which we appreciate, said Luigi made a website

where people can send him their picture and fan mail. The lawyers definitely need to check that database. Oh, interesting, yeah. He's almost like creating a website. There's a clearinghouse for any potentially corrupted jurors. Here's the thing. This is why I was asking Donna this. You know, there's levels to this.

There's, in the words of Stephen A. Smith, there are levels to this. There's the guy who will donate to Luigi. Then there's the guy that will go on to X and post in support of Luigi. What you're really trying to vet for is the person that does nothing on social media, doesn't talk about it, but just consumes it. With that algorithm conversation that we had, I found that, like, mind-blowingly fascinating. That's the people that I want to know, the ones that are quietly sympathetic to Mangione. One second, two a day's. Anne Brightrick, another frequent commenter, says, I served on a domestic abuse case. We were asked if we were on social media

and believed the Me Too movement. Great example. Requires testimony. Requires admission, requires honesty. The thing I was trying to do with Donna, where I'm like, read me your first post on X regarding the Mangione would actually be evidence on what you consume on social media. And she said you can't do that right now.

What do you have, two days? So the latest poll I have is from almost exactly. a year ago from the economist New Gov. Is that something that you would be interested in, or is that too old? Sure, it's 12 months old, and I'm sure it's fluid. Right. But I would still be curious. So, 43% had a somewhat or very negative view of Mangione, while 21% had a somewhat or very

positive view, and 37% were still unsure. Support was highest among 18 to 29-year-olds who identified as liberal. Wow. Those are big numbers, man. 21%'s a lot, dude. Like, you would presume, even the 37% that's like, eh, still want to feel this one out. Like, I mean, shot him in the back of the head. I don't get it.

That's actually terrifying. It's murder. That's half. That's half. What you just added up was half. Yeah, right. I, uh, that would terrify me as a prosecutor. And I'd want, and by the way, my presumption is in the last 12 months, that hasn't gotten

worse for Mangione. You know what I mean? I don't think those numbers would have moved to. I don't think those numbers. Yeah. I think you're going to get more sympathy or whatever. I don't even know what the emotion is. Is it sympathy or is it lionization?

Like, what is it happening? Like, what is it with Mangione? Attractiveness? All right. Well, it plays a role. It definitely plays a role. Pretty privilege. even in the courtroom for murder um okay uh let's do this let's do final takes with um

the most exciting man in broadcasting who is going to bring us now the story of what it is to be afraid to talk on the phone final takes hand final takes with the most exciting man in broadcasting tinfoil pack fantastic i uh didn't realize we're doing final takes um So anyway, Gen Z, I don't have the article. Jin Z has decided that they are going to be afraid of the telephone. I'm cool to hang out. They are experiencing telephobia.

And they do not talk to people on the telephone. Tell me more. So it's a great question. And so according to. The Atlantic. I can literally hear you scrambling. I can literally hear you using your phone. I can hear you scrambling to be prepared to do the show that we do every day.

And you are the producer that comes up with topics for us. And you have recapped it. This is not mine. Okay. You didn't come up with this one. You didn't come up with this one. I can hear the panicked scrolling. Okay.

right here where is it oh shit that's not it where is it oh god here is the details of the story it's impacting their uh it's impacting their jobs that's that's the problem is uh they don't like small talk they don't want to talk in the phone they're afraid to talk in the phone they're afraid to get phone calls they're afraid to call people yeah they want a message and if they know the job market

and they don't want a voice at all you have to talk on the phone yeah what about employers calling potential employers They screen them They screen their boss And text back What's up? I screened my first potential boss ever Back of the day

Dan He called to offer me a job And I screened him My accident By accident though Well I didn't pick it up Because I didn't know the number Yeah that's different

Okay That's different Um Afraid to talk on the phone Yeah do you think that's a time thing like they just see it as time consuming like i'm not going to give the next five minutes to this conversation i don't think so that it's you don't think so because it's just it's in the moment you have to think about what you're doing with texts you could

edit it you can you know go back they're just awkward i think i think it's just awkwardness oh i don't think there's well i don't agree with that because i don't there's a lot of um contemplation and forethought going into the texts i don't i think that they're but I think that's really quick to fire on a text. It's just, yeah, it's a type of anxiety. You don't have,

you don't like talking to people is a different thing than like, like, because you have to look them in the eye, you know, or, well, I guess you don't look them in the eye on the phone, but it's,

it's a different way to communicate, and it's like, it's really hard, like I don't make eye contact. Like right now, I'm not even looking at you. I'm looking at a point on a screen. You know what I mean?

So when we meet you for the first time this weekend, will you look me in the eye? Like, any handshake. You have to be very hard for me. I don't even look at my wife in the eye. Are you going to hug, Will? You're like a Gen Z millennial.

You're like a Gen Z millennial. Like, so many of your characteristics are Gen Z, but yet you're a millennial. I'm an elder millennial. Yeah, we're the OGs. And has seven children. And neuroticism. Do you look your kids in the eye? So.

I try to. That's how you intimidate them. So, this is the exact opposite of how I feel about communication. Generally, I love human communication, and I love it with all its complexities. And if you'll find,

if you pay attention, like it is the source of a lot of content for me, like casually, conversationally, even professionally, meaning I like to analyze it. I think it tells a lot, a lot about people.

What I mean is, okay, the one of the things that I have not liked, first about the digital age is reducing everything into text because so much context is lost in text body language voice tone everything all of it's lost right and and i'm not particularly good at that i'll be honest with you like i've never thought i'm a great tweeter i'm a great i don't consider myself a great writer um i don't i certainly i wouldn't put a lot of faith that my texts always come across the way that i want them to i think you're angry because because because

on my text they're just very short do I it's like yeah they're very boomeresque in some ways also like my wife was just going through this she like gave somebody a heart for a for a response and it's like well that

is like that okay and then you know if you give the thumbs up that's passive aggressive so you can't just give the thumbs up the heart is essentially the thumbs up now so you have to like really think about the context of what you're no no yeah I don't I don't like or appreciate any of that.

And by way, I don't think I'm boomer-esque. Like, I actually think the young generation is really clipped in texting. Like, they're really short and brief. I mean, when I text with my boys, I'm lucky to get back, okay, okay, you know? Have you ever seen some of those memes of like, I'm a parent, we'll text a kid. I just want you know I'm really proud of you and watching you today do what you did. And it just made me proud. And you get back from your son, okay.

Or the thumbs up. You ever get just K? Just K? Us millennials are traumatized by just K. K. Yeah, very Yeah, very, yeah, very fast. Does we know we're dating someone like your girlfriend says K? It's like I'm in deep doo-doo.

Well, so I just love all of it, man. Like, I love the non-verbal. I love the tone and the analysis. and all of that because I guess I feel like that is a window into I do think people communicate like Ernest Hemingway was famous about this in his writing like whatever the dialogue was in for example the sun also rises it's it's not what was actually he understood that human communication is not it's subtextual so whatever you say isn't completely honest about what it is you're saying and you get more of a window into the honesty with their nonverbal communication. with their body language and with their tone. And so it's like it's all very complex, this thing that is the mess of humanity and communication. And I think we all do that now that we've moved into the video age.

Then you go to video and you're like, well, okay, now I get more. But I think for some people, like who do what I do, video for me over time has made me skeptical of them. Like they're playing to the camera. It's not another human being. So it's not like A to B. it's A to B, but the audience is really C. And so now it's a projection, right?

And one can say the same thing about television because it is for the mass of television. I'd like to think that's not what I do, but it is. It's like now you're not being honest because it's a performance. It's a thing for C. It's not actually a exchange between A and B. And, you know, so the point is like I don't love the way we communicate. The best is two people talking, man, or three people or four people.

It's backyard barbecue-style conversation. That's the best. And it's engaging. Your endorphins fire and like you're doing interesting things in the communication. And I'm on to, like I talk to my sons about this all the time. Like Patrick, like, you have to make eye contact. You have to. And like, I talk about this a lot because whether or not you want to believe it or not,

you are communicating to other people. It may not be what you intend. It may not be what you want. But you've got to step outside yourself. and look at them. And so, like, one of my sons, I'm like, hey, man, like, you didn't look at him and you didn't speak up when you responded. So how is he reading that? He's reading that, quite honestly, and I'm going to speak because we're on digital here, that you're a dick, that you're arrogant, that you're too good for him. And it could be driven out of your own

insecurity. It most probably is driven out of your own insecurity. But what does that matter? It doesn't matter what you're feeling. You've just created that dynamic based upon the selfishness of how you're feeling. You're feeling insecure. Cool. Now you've told the entire world that you're too good to hang. You're too good to talk. I didn't mean that. Doesn't matter now, does it? Because that's who you are to them, right? So you've got to do your best to communicate the authenticity of what you feel, unless you're a liar and you can get really good at that. And now you're playing chess with your communication style and all that. But the point is, I like all this. Yeah. I mean, this is what the CIA learns how to do. When are people

people line, you know, like, this is what Bill O'Reilly used to do when he had body, body language experts on the O'Reilly factor, right? It was all based upon all these complexities of human communication. And now we've got a generation that doesn't even want to reveal, forget eye contact, forget like, nonverbal communication. They want to excise tone. Well, you don't read body language over the phone, but now you're taking tone out, right? You're taking the conversational element out. Now it's just a text exchange. It's not, it's, it's, it's, look, part of me is like it's really bad. The other part is, well, will, society's moving the direction of the thing that you're not the best at.

So, I don't love that. Well, when I was dating even a few years ago, I made it a huge factor to kind of like, you know, body language eye contact. And after a first date, I would call them instead of text them because I felt that was more authentic and getting, you know, human connection and been like, hey, what's up? Do you want to hang out again on a text? I would call them and it was very important and it worked I mean I think it worked

but they thought it was weird they're like why are you calling me not that was going out Gen Z I don't like this telephobia

well this is a perfect transition into tinfoil pat goes to Manhattan we are this week going to New York City a good chunk of the Wilcane show

and Wilcane Country I'm going to be from New York for a couple of days this week we're going to have a little get together for Christmas and as part of this

for the first time in what Patrick two years over two years it's been three years Patrick is going to be in very long years three years see like I think you're being sarcastic like I have a little

bit of evidence beyond the words but not a lot I have some the tone this is on you now well too the experience this is on you this is on you at this point too not never meeting him you should have gone down to florida at this point and met this guy you have a friend

here really i should have gone to made sure made sure he's real yeah what if patrick's just a i yeah what if he's not even i have no evidence that he's not right we've never met patrick in person but he is flying to new york to meet us all and by the way i was on the call this morning for the will cane show or planning call and they all said how much they're looking at looking forward to meeting Patrick. It was unanimous. They were all saying, I can't wait to meet Patrick. He's an enigma.

That'll help his eye contact. That pressure will really help his eye contact. An entire control room. He walks in, they look back in. When you walk in, Patrick, I just want you to know all eyes are going to be on you. When you walk in, everybody's going to be staring at you, thinking about you, analyzing you and judging you. Stop.

Well, he's not going to come. He's not going to come. Stop. That's fine. He's not going to get on the plane. My only concern is my, you know, morning. schedule is off a little bit. But other than that, I think it will be okay.

Well, how concerned are you the fact that you probably either have to go over the Queensboro Bridge, the Triborough Bridge, or the one of the Midtown Tunnel, Dan, on the east side, Lincoln's on the west, Midtown's on the, what? Yes. There is a, what is the tunnel on the east side? I'm not driving. You got to go through to get. So being a passenger is fine?

Yeah, I'll be okay. I don't know that you will. They're pretty intense bridges and they're very narrow at points. And there's a lot of them. And Patrick is flying into JFK. He's flying to JFK, not LaGuardia. And he said to us this morning,

well, I saw it was only a couple miles further out than LaGuardia. We're like, dude, those couple miles could add 45 minutes to your commute into New York. It's like 60 miles where you live. Like, I think from LaGuardia to Manhattan is four to five miles. It will take an hour, most likely, depending on what time we get in. Easy.

To get into the city. So, and you've never been to New York, right, Pat? Not the city, no. That's wild to me. What does that mean? You once took a trip to Staten Island? I went to Bikipsi. I went to...

That's not even close. I'm saying I've been to New York. I just haven't been to the city. I've been within, like... 10 miles of the city, driving through it, or driving through New York. The Kips is not 10 miles. No, no, no, no, no, no. You still have to drive.

How are you going to be with, you're staying in midtown? How are you going to be with all the high rises in midtown? That's going to be a problem. I don't know. Did you ask for a lower floor? I should have done that, but I don't think I did. I'm just going to be, I'm trying to, I did a lot of mind exercises in the shower over the last week, you know, trying to change my, my state.

of being really so what's your anxiety level 1 to 10 10 being nuclear um well I've been like try to pass it off and not think about it at all um it's probably right now like I'm feeling a 7 now that we're bringing it all up to the to the surface here reminds me of home alone too like he's going to be McCulley Coulcan walking around the city. Maybe meet Donald Trump go to F.A. Swartz. Whole pizza is for me. Run and go into Central Park

at night for some, God-for-Second reason. That's not going to happen. Are you going to walk around the city? Are you going to go to Central Park or Times Square? I don't think so. Probably just going to hang in the hotel room. Times Square is right down the street. Is it? Right down the street. You can walk into Times Square. Yeah.

Yeah. Are you going to go to the Statue of Liberty? Are you going to go to Ellis Island? You're going to go to Wall Street? You're going to do any sightseeing? None of that. What am I have time to do that? We got work. We got work to do.

It's a work trip. We'll give you time. We'll give you time. We'll just make sure nothing gets done. We'll make it work. We'll understand what I do. So clips don't get clipped. He has to work his 18 hours, Will.

He has to work his full double day. I'm already dreading it. Like being having to, get off like three i only have like an hour and a half left to work are are you going to um self medicate in any way are you going to i don't know too tired i what do you get bourbon guy bourbon and vodka yeah but i'm too tired i can't do it right now i got to stay clear-headed are you going to check out early will you leave the party and go back to your hotel room no no i'll be there. I'll be well-rested by then. We'll be good. We'll be good to go. Will you video,

will you video yourself? Will you do a vlog for us? Ten foil goes to Manhattan? Yeah, why not? Maybe you're one of those guys that, you know, when it's just you and your phone, who knows? You're like Dave Portnoy. Once it becomes just you and the phone, like, you got a lot to say. It's just not too much to say. I just, I don't know. we should send them to like dive bars like a dive bar well look out Pete Carroll Dan I think this is all enough

flying on an airplane getting in a cab or an Uber driving over bridges or through tunnels coming into Midtown fighting traffic walking amongst the high rises checking into a hotel walking to be social with people at work meeting strangers who all are looking at you

I don't think we need a trip to statuary I think all of this is enough and it's enough content I think maybe one of these shows should be all dedicated to this like in the next couple days of tinfoil goes to New York and we have to get it all in on this trip

because he will never come back after this one I promise you probably not I don't know we'll see I'm good luck or I'll just become king in New York okay you know don't forget I don't live in the city so if you need me

I'm too far away all right and I won't be in Midtown no you're not no I'll just be all alone I hope none of those murders that got released last week you're gonna be after me very worried about these murderers being released he is he's worried about the murders I think he's worried about the drugs yeah he's worried about MS-13 the gangs I'm not a CEO a lot

yeah Luigi Mangione you're it's a short walk from from your hotel to to Fox News it's a very very short walk so you should be all right You can't wait to see you go through security for the first time. You're by at a chick-flay there. So, you know, it's all good. We'll be okay. You're like Michael Scott in the office. Like, you're going to go to time we've got it all.

Sparrow's Chick-fil-A. You got it all right there. Corner of the world. All right. Can't wait. We'll all be in New York starting tonight, tomorrow. Don't miss it. Come hang out with us on Wilcane Country.

We'll see you next time. Listen to ad-free with a Fox News podcast plus subscription on Apple Podcasts, and Amazon Prime members. You can listen to this show, ad-free on the Amazon Music app.