Will Cain Country - Out Of The Darkness: The Mystery Of Aaron Rodgers

Episode Date: August 16, 2024

Will sits down with Ian O'Connor, the author of four consecutive New York Times Bestsellers, Belichick, The Captain, Arnie & Jack, and Coach K, to discuss his latest news breaking, unauthorized biography, Out Of The Darkness: The Mystery Of Aaron Rodgers. Rodgers, one of the most talented quarterbacks in NFL history, also stands as one of the most polarizing players of his era. From his controversial Covid stance to his methods of spiritual awakening, to his estrangement from his family to his high-profile romances, O'Connor peals back the curtain and attempts to answer the mystery that is Aaron Rodgers.  O’Connor uses hundreds of original interviews to answer the most penetrating questions about the league’s most enigmatic player and reveal all sides of an all-time great. Tell Will what you thought about this podcast by emailing [e-mail] Subscribe to The Will Cain Show on YouTube here: Watch The Will Cain Show!   Follow Will on Twitter: @WillCain Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

For a limited time at McDonald's, enjoy the tasty breakfast trio. Your choice of chicken or sausage McMuffin or McGrittles with a hash brown and a small iced coffee for $5.5 plus tax. Available until 11 a.m. at participating McDonald's restaurants. Price excludes flavored iced coffee and delivery. He was a rumored vice presidential candidate for, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. He might be the biggest villain in the national football league. He's interesting.

He's unorthodox. He's been called a conspiracy theorist. He's also been called one of the greatest quarterbacks of all time. Who is Aaron Rogers? It's the Will Kane Show streaming live at Fox News.com and on the Fox News YouTube channel and the Fox News Facebook page. Always on demand by subscribing at Apple or on Spotify. Aaron Rogers has crossed over cultural relevance from simply sports to politics,

from politics to pop culture. Everyone has an opinion on Aaron Rogers, in part because of his position when it comes to COVID, in part because of his use of ayahuasca in sensory deprivation chambers, in part because he's got no relationship with most of his close family members. in part because he's now the quarterback of the New York Jets. Aaron Rogers is simply fascinating. And Ian O'Connor has a new book out entitled Out of the Darkness, The Mystery of Aaron Rogers.

We talk to Ian today on The Will Kane Show. Hey, I'm Trey Gowdy host of the Trey Gowdy podcast. I hope you will join me every Tuesday and Thursday as we navigate life together and hopefully find ourselves a little bit better on the other side. Listen and follow now at Fox News Podcast. I'm Janice Dean. Join me every Sunday as I focus on stories of hope and people who are truly rays of sunshine in their community and across the world. Listen and follow now at Fox Newspodcast.com Fox News Audio presents unsolved with James Patterson. Every crime tells the story, but some stories are left

unfinished. Somebody knows. Real cases, real people. Listen and follow now at Fox True Crime.com. Ian O'Connor, the New York Time best-selling author of Belichick, has a new book out. It's entitled Out of the Darkness, the Mystery of Aaron Rogers. And he joins us now here on The Will Kane Show. What's up, Ian? Well, great to see you again. You too. Last time we were together, as we were just mentioning, we were talking about Bill Belichick,

that incredible biography you wrote of Bill Belichick. And I think you've probably picked a subject here with even more wrinkles, more depth, more intrigue. with Aaron Rogers. I'm going to start with what remains to me the biggest mystery. And I'm not sure that you have completely answered the question Ian, despite the depth of your reporting and research. Maybe because the question can't be answered. What happened with Aaron Rogers and his family? I've read into this. I cannot find the answer. Why has he totally excised every single member of his family, his brothers, his aunts, his uncles, his cousins, and his mom and dad from his life.

It's because those family members don't know the answer. And Aaron doesn't provide a very clear one when asked. I think the reason is because, and I know everybody wants a singular defined reason, moment, development where he decided, okay, you're done. And a lot of blame has been put at the feet of Olivia Munn. And the fact of the matter is he hasn't dated her in seven years and the estrangement rages on. And so I don't really see it that way. I think she might have notarized some thoughts that he had going into that relationship back in 2014.

But there really are a bunch of reasons. A lot of them seem minor and petty. But religion was a part of this at the beginning. And he was raised in a devoutly Christian home, particularly his mother was devoutly religious. And one little example of that is, for instance, and she was morally opposed to premarital sex. And even when he was in the NFL, she would ask him questions about,

are you sharing a hotel room with your girlfriend? Are you staying in separate rooms? And there were things like that that certainly bothered him. And it started, one relative who spoke with me said that when he went to Cal at Berkeley, it's really global institution where he was exposed to all sorts of different cultures and creeds and races and religions that changed for him,

that he started seeing things differently. He grew up in this small town, relatively small town, in Northern California, overwhelmingly white, and just got exposed to a lot of different things in college. And this relative said that's where he started questioning things, that everything didn't have to be black and white or binary, particularly in a religious context. So he's no longer religious. He's now spiritual. And so religion was a part of it early on.

It's no longer a big part of it. He also felt that his acts of generosity with family members were not being appreciated fully. He felt that the family unit was revolving too much around his fame and success. That bothered him. I have a key quote in the book from his best friend saying Jordan Russell. And he was kicked out of Aaron's life for three or four years too and then brought back. Most people don't make a comeback in Aaron's life, but he did. And he said when Aaron thinks a family member or a friend is trying to lay claim to his success,

He will go out of his way to make that person earn his or her own way. And I really do think that's a big part of this. And you would think that wouldn't lead to a 10-year estrangement. There were things his brothers did that he didn't like. There are things he did. His brothers didn't like. But at the end of the day, this thing should have been killed off five, six or seven years ago, Will. And I think it's a living organism now that he does not know how to kill off.

and instead of confronting it, he has allowed it. It's easier to just let it live and linger and fester, and that's the way it's played out. I'll probably weave in and out of this central mystery in this conversation on a couple of occasions, but you bring up an aspect of Aaron's personality that's really fascinating to me from the first page of the book. When you talk about he feels like

if there's any person in his circle who trades upon his own fame, he'll go out of his way to make sure that they have to earn it. Aaron had to earn it. That's very clear from the beginning. He wasn't this guy that was always tapped as a five-star quarterback, your pick of colleges. He was made fun of for the size of his feet compared to his height. He definitely earned his way into the conversation of one of the greatest quarterbacks of all time. But while that's all true, Ian, in reading your book, he also had this demeanor. I think I can read into your book in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, the description of his relationships. He had this demeanor that I think for a lot of us

comes off or came off at one point as arrogant, dismissive. But it's, I'm, I'm not sure that's what it is. In reading your book, it's this weird kind of confidence. Not necessarily chip on your shoulder. I'm mad and I'm going to talk trash to everybody on the field. But I, I don't know this, this calm confidence that borders on arrogance that is, I'm not sure I can think of somebody else who has that same kind of personality. I think Will what happened is an agent, his first agent, and he fired this person, another person he kicked out of his life. Mike Sullivan said that after he won the Super Bowl, he felt like Aaron had been mis-evaluated

by so many people going back to high school that he decided, I'm doing it my way. I've conquered the ultimate challenge in my profession. I am the Super Bowl MVP. Now we're doing it my way. And I think there's a lot of truth to that. But yeah, the one thing I'll give him a lot of credit for is he is a self-made man, as you mentioned. And I was sitting at his Malibu mansion. And the backyard was the Pacific Ocean.

And that's basically where we did the two-hour interview at the end of my process. Really, it was more of a fact-checking exercise. But it was the nicest backyard I've ever sat in for an interview. I'll say that. It was the Pacific Ocean that we were on. And I did look around and say, you know, this guy, he did this himself. He really had, no help along the way. No Division I recruiters ever went north of Sacramento.

He lived north of Sacramento. The whole recruiting process was the local Jucco coach who lived like five houses away, walking to his house, knocking on the door, and trying to convince his mother that a kid who got 1310 on his SATs now has to go to community college. And that was his recruiting process. He goes to Butte Community College is great for one season. Cal, Berkeley sees him, signs him to a scholarship, and then the rest is history. But he even plunges in the draft.

He was supposed to go number one to his hometown dream team, the Niners. He goes 24th. He becomes the first reality NFL draft show. His humiliation was really the first reality show with the NFL draft. and then he's treated like dirt by Brett Farr in his first couple of years in the league. So there were a lot of scars there. And everything he accomplished, in fact, including the purchase of that Malibu home, which was reported to be shared by Danica Patrick and Aaron,

he made it clear to me that he paid the entire bill on that for $28 million. So he wanted me to know that. So, yeah, I think that the arrogance that he has shown over time, reminds me of other great athletes and coaches that I've profiled in books and beyond. It's almost like, and you know this from covering sports in the past, the greats have a hard time saying I'm sorry or I'm wrong about anything. To admit weakness in any context, I think they're concerned about that following them into the competitive arena.

And the reason why these people are all-time greats is because they don't ever admit weakness and faults. and I really think that's a part of Aaron's persona. I want to follow up on Brett Favre. Give me some character. It's been written about. People have understood that, that he was not embraced by Brett Favv. He was treated by like dirt.

How? Oh, it's just, for instance, one of their teammates, Brady Pupinga, told me a story about, and this was sort of representative of the treatment. And it did get better by that third year. They were together, which was Brett's last year in Green Bay. Farr took a helmet or he had somebody grab Aaron's helmet and he passed it around and made sure that people sign their autograph to the helmet, Aaron's helmet, thinking it was a helmet to be given away to charity. And Aaron, I believe, even signed it. So that day, unbeknownst to him as Aaron walks out to the practice field, the equipment guy is approaching him with that helmet and everybody's signature and black marker scrawled all over the helmet. And he's now wearing that in practice. People are mocking him for it on the practice field for a couple hours. And you would think that's maybe a fairly harmless prank.

But just because Favre was neighborly to any backup who he felt wasn't a threat, but the opposite of that to a backup who he now realized was hired to replace him, in that context, Aaron really felt humiliated. And he goes into the locker room after that session. And he goes up to someone he knows. And he says, do you believe what that bleep just did to me? and it was a pretty severe profanity. And, yeah, so that was just one small example of how Brett would treat a backup quarterback

who was always going to be a backup quarterback one way as a dear friend, but Aaron Rogers was a threat to be eliminated, if possible. And I actually don't necessarily totally blame him for feeling that way. His job was to win football games with the Green Bay Packers. It wasn't to train his replacement. so he was going to make Aaron force him out and earn it, and Aaron did. So you brought up Aaron's SAT, 1310. Aaron, when we talk about, you know, he didn't have the height, he always had a little bit of

arm talent, that was clear. You write dating back to when he first got to play football, which I think his first time he got to play football was eighth grade maybe, roughly in that range. His parents wouldn't let him play football, but he played basketball, he played baseball, he was an athlete. But the one thing he had that you would have said, well, that makes him stand out. Seems to have been his brain.

Like, he read defenses, he drew plays. Since he was a little kid, like that's what he did for fun, was draw plays up. This is before the days of Madden, really. And then he got into that, I think, as well to video games. But he intellectually understood the game. And then you're right, he got a 13-10 on the SAT.

And I think you talk about the moment when he had the falling out with Mike McCarthy was because, in the end, NFC championship game against the Seahawks, he felt he had better diagnosed the Seahawks based upon what Tony Romo and the Cowboys had done at the Seahawks than McCarthy called, than the game that he called. And I do wonder, like, Aaron's really smart. And at some point, even Aaron's public persona now when he talks about things outside the world of football is his intelligence is a place where he doesn't, it doesn't, I don't know,

I'm tempted to say it doesn't, it doesn't accompany humility, but then I do think there's a certain fluidity or open-mindedness to Aaron when he talks about ideas that, you know, some people have called him conspiratorial, which requires a great amount of flexibility intellectually. But, you know, I don't know, his intellect is certainly a part of his personality. Well, in a major way, without question, I do think sometimes he has outsmarted himself. Let's take the Jimmy Kimmel thing for example, okay? So he had no intention of going on Pat McAfee's show that day to bring up Jimmy Kimmel and someone leds tied to the Epstein list.

But he's always been looking for an opportunity to get back at Kimball from mocking him on his show months earlier. Okay, so he's waiting for that opportunity. Now, they were talking about sort of joking around about this Super Bowl logo conspiracy where the colors of the logo signifies the teams that ultimately end up in the Super Bowl, and I think it was A.J. Hawk who blurted out, doesn't that have something to do with the Epstein list? And Aaron, instead of dismissing that comment,

tried to run with it. And he brings up Kimmel's name. And I truly believe he did not mean to intend that Kimmel would end up on that list. I agree. But nine out of ten viewers, if not 10 out of 10, had no idea about his feelings for Kimmel and the way he had mocked him on his show. So they came away believing that's what Aaron said. So now, whatever it was, days later, Aaron's trying to explain it. Once you try to explain it these days, you've lost. It's too late. Right.

And so people believe that's what he said. That's what he meant. I truly think he did not mean to say that or suggest it. But he outsmarted himself there. And really, the COVID thing changed his whole life. And I told him when I sat with him in Malibu in February that, and I can't guarantee this, Aaron. But if I were a columnist and I was vaxed, if I were columnist in Green Bay or Milwaukee for one of those outlets sitting in that room that day that you said the words, yeah, I've been immunized, which changed your life, those four words, if you had told the truth, your truth, which was you were allergic to an ingredient in Pfizer and Moderna and concerned about Johnson and Johnson's side effects, I would have found that to be a reasonable position. I really don't think I would have ripped you that day in my column. So why didn't you just tell the truth?

Because I think you would have gotten less than half. Some people still would have criticized him, of course. But I think you would have gotten half the criticism or less than that that you got in November when the truth came out. And he conceded he made a mistake that if you had a mulligan a do-over, he would tell the truth. He said, I was trying to protect an ongoing appeal with the league, which the reasoning there is a little off. But, yeah, I was surprised he admitted that he made a mistake because I don't remember Aaron Rogers. really ever admitting that he made a mistake in anything, which goes back to what I was saying earlier, the greats don't like to admit fault. I profiled Coach K, Belichick, Derek Jeter in books.

They were all the same way. They rarely said they were wrong or sorry about anything. So I think that played into it. First of all, I'll take a minute just to compliment you, Ian, on one story there when it comes to the Epstein issue. I've openly talked about this. I think that what you've exhibited there is not just goodwill, but an interest in the facts, which comes as no surprise to someone who's ever read a book by Ian O'Connor. But Aaron Rogers was not trying to suggest that Jimmy Kimmel would be on the Epstein list. It did go back to, I think in the past Kimmel had dismissed Aaron Rogers or dismissed the idea of the Epstein list and lumped those things together. And had there

had been this adversarial relationship created somehow between Kimmel and Rogers. And then Rogers tried to use that moment to say, oh, Jimmy Kimmel will be very disappointed when the Epstein list is released, not because he'd be on it, but because he had dismissed it in the past. And I think that you might be right that nine out of ten people wouldn't know that, but it's our job, those of us with microphones and pins and columns to find the facts. And I was so disappointed in our brethren in this business who showed no interest in that, who only showed interest in going after Aaron and suggesting as a conspiracy theorist and when it comes to Epstein and put all these like magical words together like Epstein conspiracy and it was all

tied to by the way it was all tied to in my estimation Rogers approach to COVID and and you know you're right you you might not have gone after him that day Ian but I think a lot of people would you know a lot of people would have gone after him I don't but to your point they didn't go after Jackson that heavily. He wasn't vaccinated. They got, went after Lamar a little bit. But I guess Aaron's answer to you was I was trying to appeal to the NFL suggesting my holistic practice amounted to immunization. It was an ongoing appeal. So I will say here in this moment, yes, I've been immunized. In other words, if I make the argument in this venue, I got to make the argument in that venue. One point I want to make, Will, is that he's a,

fearless public speaker and that's a commendable trait because most people aren't including myself to be honest with you but he is not afraid to accept the consequences of an unpopular opinion that he expresses in the beliefs that he holds and that's a rare trait and again commendable and i think that there why why did he show fear of telling the truth and because we've seen now the last three four years he's really not been afraid of anything and the criticism that he gets in the media and it's relentless at times. And I do think there is almost a giddy element to doing it when it's Aaron Rogers. And yeah, I think a lot of it might be liberal-centric. And frankly, when I was reporting this book, I think I had to win over some of his friends and associates.

I ended up talking to 250 people. But early on, I was getting a lot of resistance. And I did think, and one person said this to me, but I think a lot of people had this feeling that I was this media a guy from New York, probably a liberal who's going to destroy Aaron Rogers over his vac stance, and I had absolutely no agenda. That couldn't have been further from the truth. And I think his friends, it was like later in the process, I got a lot of positive reaction from his friends and then from Aaron who agreed to sit down with me because I think they realized I had no agenda. And I have friends who didn't get vaccinated. And listen, I made my choice. I was vaccinated. But, okay, you had your reasons. I was willing to listen to listen to that. And you

your explanation. And because he had been fearless ever since, I'm just wondering why you weren't fearless in that moment telling your truth. You didn't do it. So he admitted I made a mistake. I should have done that because that's the one thing I really think critics have on me was that day. It's okay, fair enough. But I give him credit for conceding that, admitting it because I know it wasn't easy for him to do that to me. That's a really interesting point about the mistake being the one time you weren't fearless. You know, I want to indulge myself in a little bit of self-awareness as well. I remember being on ESPN, and look, I've had my disagreements with Aaron Rogers. You know, I think that Aaron Rogers and I, not publicly, but I just remember

going on first take or whatever it may have been and disagreeing with Aaron Rogers over his stance, for example, when it came to Colin Kaepernick. But it was almost like Aaron Rogers was a little bit of a social justice quarterback for a moment. He was a darling. He was a darling of the sports writer on the left. And you point out those four words. Do you think that's truly what it was, those four words? Yes, I'm immunized or whatever it was. Or yes, I have been immunized.

That flipped the script, that one moment. And by the way, when I say self-awareness, I don't want to, oh, my God, all of a sudden, now I agree with Aaron Rogers on a few things. Like he's, you know, I forget the, no, he's a complicated guy. I would have a ton of agreement and a ton of disagreement with Aaron Roger. But those four words changed the way everybody feels about Aaron Rogers. Yeah, because he was considered one of the more socially aware athletes in American sports before that. They were, he backed Colin Kaepernick. He supported the athletes' right to protest inequities in American society.

There was a case during the National Anthem at one game, I believe it was right after the terrorist attack in Paris, where someone shouted out an anti-Muslim slur. he rebuked that fan and President Obama sent him a letter of thanks for doing it. He also was engaged in a, he was involved in a charity to support victims of the war in the Congo. How many athletes cared about that? It was just, he was one of the good guys. And some of the people who have killed him the last three years actually praised them back then. So that changed everything.

That he has not recovered from that PR hit. And that's why I said, if you told the truth, I don't, you would have gotten criticized. and I can't guarantee you I wouldn't have been one to do it, but I feel like in looking at it, I don't think I would have because that sounds reasonable to me. If you were really concerned about your health and you were allergic to an ingredient, okay, I can understand that. So it was an interesting turn to becoming a villain.

Now, the conspiracy theories on top of it have been wildly unpopular with much of the media. We all know that not all conspiracy theories are false. They were occasionally, so if he has, if he embraces six or seven conspiracy theories right now, we might find out in 10, 15 years that one of them, maybe two of them are true. Now, I would say most of them are not. Some of them are wacky, in my opinion.

But, yeah, I think that has added layers to his villainous state right now in the NFL. I'd love to interview him, Ian. I would love to interview him about whether or not I've changed, whether or not America's changed, or whether or not he's changed. And the answer is probably all of the above. but I would love to interview him about, you know, how he approaches all of this. Even for me, I have to be careful, Ian, not to be reactionary. So, in other words, that I don't just take the opposite position of the people that attack me.

And I do wonder if some of that, he's, again, he's very thoughtful and he's very smart. So I don't want to rob him of that thoughtfulness in arriving at any of the positions where he is. But how much, if any, if he's trying to be self-aware, is a reaction to, the way he's been relentlessly attacked. Yeah, I think that's a part of it. It's interesting because this is never a part of the public discussion of who Aaron Rogers is as a player in person, but I was talking to a long time NFL prominent figure in the NFL for many years,

who knows hundreds upon hundreds of NFL players. And this person said, listen, I can't stand Aaron Rogers. I'll be honest with you. I don't like any of his position, particularly the vaccine, stance that he has. But I have to admit, I've never met an NFL player who doesn't like them. And the players see a different person. They see a great teammate and leader almost to a man universally across a 20-year career.

And that is never discussed. I saw it last summer, Will, when he arrived with the Jets and I was at training camp and the way those players revered him. And to this day, and in Green Bay, outside of one or two guys occasionally saying something, Greg Jennings and Jermichael Finley, who have said a lot of positive things about Aaron as well. But that is never brought up. It's like the people he spends the most amount of time with love the guy, and that counts for nothing in the public discussion of Aaron Rogers. So I think with him becoming a villain, for lack of a better term, I do think he sometimes leans into that and has fun with it.

But he's also a human being, and some of the, I mean, some of the wounds have been self-inflicted. There have been unforced errors committed by him. But I do think the stinging criticism, relentless as it's been, has hurt him at times. And he admitted to me, hey, I'm human, some of this does hurt. So I do think that, listen, I'll say this, if he can find a way to win a Super Bowl with the New York Jets of all franchises and win a second ring before he retires, ending a biblical drought in the Big Apple, I think, and victory shouldn't be confused with virtue, and victory is often confused with virtue. We all know how it works.

If you win a championship in sports, a lot of off-field perceived sins and on-field perceived sins are wiped away. So if you can find a way to do that this year for the New York Jets, who have not been in the Super Bowl since January of 69, I think that would go a long way to sort of fixing some of these issues both on and off the field. Tell me about the ayahuasca and the sensory deprivation treatments. Tell me about Aaron Rogers and, I mean, all of this stuff that he's doing, which I do not dismiss, Ian. I'm interested. I haven't done ayahuasca and I haven't gone into the darkness.

But I am curious. You talk to the guy who ran that darkness retreat in Oregon. And it was fascinating because I said, could I do that? And I think Aaron, I asked Aaron about it. at his Jets press conference after the trade last year. And he was there. I'm trying to remember having it in the book. I think it was four nights.

And he said, you know, after two days, I was ready to. It was great serenity and peace and everything else. But after a couple days, I was ready to get out of there. But I think ayahuasca, the friend I mentioned earlier, Jordan Russell, who was kicked out of his life, brought back in. He went on and ayahuasca retreat in Peru, comes back, and he says, Aaron, you've got to try this. This is great. It's just going to make you a better person. And it's a spiritual cleansing of sorts. So Aaron is dating Danica Patrick at the time.

They go to Peru. This is 2020, early spring, I believe. And he sits for a number of ceremonies. And the way Jordan Russell described it to me, because I've never done ayahuasca, is it's like having a lucid dream with embedded messages about yourself and the people around you, your loved ones and friends. And Aaron is described it in similar terms. So he comes out of it thinking that I feel like a better person. I feel like this is helping me have better relationships with people. I love why that didn't transfer to his family members. I don't know. But he also said made him a better football player.

Just cleared his mind. And I was just talking to one of his best friends yesterday. And I won't mention his name because he didn't give me the OK to do that. But he said that Aaron, ayahuasca made Aaron a better person. He'd made him a better friend, a better man. And again, maybe that's part of what might lead him to reconciliation with his family. But I think he'll use it the rest of his career and beyond. I see no reason why he wouldn't do that. You interviewed over 250 people, as you mentioned, you're still interviewing people, even though the book has been published and it's out soon.

What was the most surprising thing you learned about, Aaron Rogers? I think it was, well, when I said earlier about players loving him to a man universally across his career. I didn't really know that. And it's interesting that a lot of his friends are so frustrated by the coverage of him. These are friends who were with him when he was a kid in Oregon growing up. He spent a few years in Oregon, much of his youth in Northern California. And some of those guys are still loyal friends today. And they told me some positive stories about Aaron behind the scenes, the kindness with their children. One little example is Randall Cobb. his good friend and teammate with the Packers and then with the Jets, made Aaron the godfather

of his young son, I believe his name is Cade. It's in the book. And Cade was having his, he was three years old having a birthday party. Aaron flew across the country for that three-year-old's birthday party. And Randall Cobb said, how many people, never mind superstars and really busy superstars, would fly across the country for a birthday party for a three-year-old? old. Not only that, when they're together at the Kentucky Derby, Randall Cobb was graduating late from Kentucky. And Aaron, he was okay. He was in town for the derby, but he went to the ceremony. We've all sat through commencement ceremonies. They could be long, very hot out. And, you know, Aaron could have met him after that for a drink or whatever. But he sat through

that entire ceremony. And Randall said, I'm the first person for my family to graduate from college. And Aaron was there for me. And Aaron didn't even know that, I don't think. So, and last summer, the Jets have a kid at training camp who's dying of a rare form of cancer of the brainstem. It's just a tragic story. And his father, the kid's name was Braylin Hodson. And his father told me that when he took him to Jets camp,

he assumed Aaron Rogers would effectively, he didn't use his word, but basically be a jerk. Or just not care, might say a quick hello and move on. He said the jet who spent the most time with him showed the most compassion and genuine care for another human being was Aaron Rogers. And he said I was surprised because in the media, I was basically told this was a bad guy.

And so the kid, unfortunately, he passes away on September 12th, the morning of, right after the night before Aaron got hurt in that opening game, four snaps in season over. And he died with Aaron Rogers jersey with him, holding on to it. So there were just a lot of stories like that that are never told, and his friends are frustrated by it,

So it actually made it a much better book that I was able to make that part of this portrait of a human being in full. It's just, and this takes me back to where I began the conversation with you, Ian. So before I take it back to his family, so I heard you reference this earlier, it got better with Brett Farve. So you tell a story early on in the book about him being made fun of in class. And I can't remember what the nature of the prank or the joke was. But everybody in the class, let's call it ninth grade, 10th grade, making. fun of Aaron Rogers, even though he was already the guy who would soon be the varsity quarterback. He wasn't necessarily Mr. Popular, and he was the butt of some jokes, but he took it

in stride, I read in your book. It wasn't somebody necessarily that held a grudge, but life goes on, and Aaron bears the brunt of a lot of intentional and unintentional jokes. That's Brett Fav, that's the draft rejection, that's having to go to community college, that's not being recruited, that's whatever it may be. But at least in some of these cases, it seems he moves on. Like, I don't know what his relationship is like today with Mike McCarthy. It sounds like his relationship is better with Brett Farv. But it seems like what I'm getting at is there are relationships.

Like you said, one of his friends said, once you're on his bad side, you stay on his bad side. But it does seem like he is capable of reconciliation. He is. And you wouldn't have seen that hug with his father. That was that first step towards reconciliation. with a single family member. And I do think when he finally reunites with his dad, who is his hero. And Aaron, when he was young, talked about Joe Montana and Steve Young as his football heroes.

But he said, my idol is my father. I want to be my father. So I do think that's going to happen. Hopefully, in some strange way, this book will make it happen. But yes, he is capable of reconciliation because Jordan Russell, his best friend, was kicked out of his life and put on what I call in one chapter. after the island. When you end up on the island, it's a cold and distant and lonely place.

And most people don't make it back, but Jordan Russell did, and Aaron took him back in. And there have been other cases of people, including one other friend recently, who was taken back into the fold. So maybe that's a result in part of ayahuasca use. But yeah, he is. And Mike McCarthy, Brett Farv, let's talk about those two people.

I think the relationship with Brett Farv is now better. And it got better that third year they were together, 2007. because Aaron went through in Green Bay, what Brett went through. Now he knew what it felt like to be Brett Farv at the end of his career in Green Bay, sort of being forced out. And the same thing happened to Aaron

where really at the end, the Packers wanted him to go to the Jets. It wasn't Aaron's decision in full. They were ready to turn over the team to Jordan Love, and the Packers effectively kicked Brett Farv out to turn the team over to Rogers. So I think they have a bond now

over that shared experience, strange as it might be. And Mike McCarthy, I think they really appreciate each other much more now than they did when they were together. Aaron Rodgers did not win a Super Bowl with Matt LaFleur. He won it with Mike McCarthy. People like to take that away from McCarthy, in part because when he was the offensive coordinator with the 49ers before the 2005 draft, he favored Alex Smith over Roger. So he was wrong.

And then he benefited from that error because he became the coach of the Packers. But Aaron Rogers at Cal was very robotic in his dropbacks. the ball up near his ear. And a lot of scouts and GMs didn't love that. Mike got him to loosen up the ball, get it down, and use his athletic ability and mobility, made him just a better, looser player and turned him into a franchise quarterback and really the best player in the league. And McCarthy gets no credit for that. Now, he made mistakes. He got too conservative at times that maybe cost the Packers a second ring, particularly in 2014. And there were times where they really butted heads.

And Aaron was frustrated that plays he wanted put in in the game plan, Mike would say he was putting them in, and then he would never call them on Sunday. Sometimes Mike would see a game on Thursday night football and try to install it late, or even see a game in or play in a college game on Saturday, and try to put it in. And Aaron was like, what are you doing?

So they were at odds at times, and it was bad at the end when McCarthy got fired. It was ugly. But today they're like, okay, we won a Super Bowl together. And I didn't win one with LaFleur, and we lit it up offensively for a lot of years. So things were pretty good, and I think they realized now they had it better than they acknowledged at the time when they were together. Two notes on football that I found fascinating, one Mike Nolan, then head coach of the San Francisco 49ers, does not forgive Mike McCarthy for essentially talking him into taking Alex Smith and then running off to Green Bay and benefiting from having Aaron Rogers to this day. Can I make one quick point there?

Yeah. Mike Nolan is known to be one of the great gentlemen in sports. Like, he doesn't criticize anybody. So I wonder how he was going to react to that quote in the book because he's such a nice guy, but he did say, he goes, listen, I had McCarthy for one year as offensive coordinator. We finished dead last in offense. And he got the Green Bay job, and we finished 32nd in offense. And then he tells me to draft Alex Smith, and now he gets Aaron Rogers and wins a Super Bowl, and I get fired.

So you can understand why he'd be a little. upset. The other football note that I liked was by the end of McCarthy and Rogers together, that McCarthy didn't even know what was happening on the field, meaning Aaron Rogers was audibling and calling out of the designed play so many times during the game that they had no idea, McCarthy in the silence literally had no idea what play was being run or what game plan, essentially, was unfolding in front of him, that Aaron Rogers was taking over control that much of the offense from the field. It's fairness. And part of that, McCarthy knew he was going to the line of scrimmage. He gave him a menu of options to pick from. And Aaron could read the defense and make an adjustment. And he had the freedom to do that quite a bit. But yeah, it got to a point where he was going to the line. And yeah, the coaches didn't know what plays were being run and the sequence that was unfolding before their very eyes. And so, yeah. And really, I think he had a lot of freedom with LaFleur.

or two, although when they first met, one of their first conversations, Matt LaFlor says to, listen, Aaron, I want you to turn your brain off. And Aaron's like, what? Because I keep my brain on at all times. I win the game with my brain Monday through Friday. And that can't be. I have to have it on. And I need my teammates to have their brains turned on at all times, too. So that didn't get the relationship off to the best start. But they had a lot of success. He won two MVP's with them. up it's the playoff failures that you look at and you just say how how again did this guy not win more rings than the one he has and i i think a lot of the blame goes to the coaching the defense special teams but some of it goes to iron uh rogers as well well i find him an incredibly

intriguing human being i find not not not a quarterback the quarterback stuff i i'm intrigued by that as well i find him interesting as a as a football player but beyond that way more. His ideas, his personality. And so because of that, I've really enjoyed out of the darkness, the mystery of Aaron Rogers. But I also just come away from it where I started. I hope he can reconcile his family because I just think that's the saddest part of this entire story, of the Aaron Rogers story. It's not the COVID stuff. It's not the vaccine stuff. It's not the ayahuasca. I just find that incredibly sad to see someone who has put everyone who's ever loved him. That may be an unfair statement, but a lot of people who have loved him in his life out of his circle, and I hope they can find a way

to reconcile, to bring that all back together. Listen, Will, as a human being before I'm a journalist, I really hope that this book didn't become another hurdle. I had talked to his dad about, is it possible that in some strange way this book would help bring them together? And since I did get Aaron to say publicly for the first time, he wants a relationship with his father. I think Ed Rogers looks at that as, okay, I think maybe that's going to help. He's now on record saying that why does it not now happen? So I agree with you. That's really my

enduring hope that this does help in some way. All right, out of the darkness, the mystery of Aaron Rogers, you've got to go pick it up. It is fascinating. It's by Ian O'Connor, and it's out. So go check it out. Ian, thank you. Pleasure will. Thank you. Listen ad-free with a Fox News podcast plus subscription on Apple Podcasts and Amazon Prime members. You can listen to this show, ad-free on the Amazon Music app. This is Jason Chaffetz from the Jason in the House podcast. Join me every Monday to dive deeper into the latest political headlines and chat with remarkable guests.

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