Will Cain Country - Rekindling The Magic With Stephen A. Smith

Episode Date: September 4, 2023

In today’s episode, Will revisits his conversation with the Host of First Take on ESPN and author of the book, Straight Shooter, Stephen A. Smith. They discuss Smith’s past, what drove him to his love of sports, their relationship on First Take, and much more.   Tell Will what you thought about this podcast by emailing [e-mail]   Follow Will on Twitter: @WillCain Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

A reunion, a debate, a conversation with my old friend and the star of first tape on ESPN, Stephen A. Smith. It's the Will Kane podcast on Fox News podcast. What's up? And welcome to Monday. As always, I hope you will download rate and review this. podcast wherever you get your audio entertainment at Apple, Spotify, or at Fox News podcast. You can watch the Wilcame podcast on Rumble or on YouTube. I'm excited about our conversation today. It's been almost two and a half years since we've spoken on camera. Once again today, I have as my adversary, as my partner, as my conversationalist, as my friend Stephen A. Smith. He has a new book out, Straight Shooter, a memoir of second chance.

and first takes by Stephen A. Smith. It's a new book that you can pick up. It's out now. And it is already, as he was sure to tell me, already on the New York Times bestseller list. I've had many famous battles with Stephen A over, it was roughly two, two and a half years where I was a consistent present on ESPN's first take. I got to know Stephen A. We had vigorous debates. And we had a good personal relationship. People often ask me, what was he like? What were you guys like. Because what they saw on camera, well, was debate. No holds barred. Free, passionate, disagreement, debate. But behind the scenes, we always dapped it up. He would offer me advice. He would offer me mentorship from time to time. We still stay in touch. It was super fun for him to

show up like George Costanza in Seinfeld with my world's colliding. My debate partner on ESPN, walking into my morning show partners' confines at Fox. We sat down for a segment on Saturday morning on Fox and Friends, and afterwards we spent 45 minutes together right here, talking about what went down in Memphis, talking about Stephen A's life, his relationship with his father, our debates. I think you're going to enjoy this conversation. I think you'll enjoy the book, Straight Shooter.

Here is Stephen A. Smith. Superstar, sports superstar, television superstar, Radio Superstar, and now, as he was just informing me, bestseller, Stephen A. Smith on the Will Kane podcast. Man, what's going on, man? How are you, man? I can't believe what the hell is my career come to? I'm getting interviewed by Will Kane for crying out loud. You, of all people, are interviewing me?

What's going on, man? It's really, honestly, man. It is really good to see you. Same here. I don't know if you remember in Seinfeld when George Costanda said, this is like my world's colliding, but it feels weird having you here at Fox, but I'm really happy to see you again. Man, I'm happy to see you too

and I'm proud of you, man. You're doing a great, great job. I knew you would. I was sad to see you leave ESPN because I enjoyed working with you. I enjoyed button heads and having to school you about the world to sport.

This is your arena now. This is your arena now. So I know I'm in different territory but when we were doing sports, you know, I had to school you from time to time. I kind of miss beating up on your life. Yeah, you walked in. You said, oh, this is what you do for a podcast?

I said, no, this is what I do for big time podcast. I get the big studio. You get the big one. for your new book, Straight Shooter. This is what I get for big time. I got you. I got you. And you said you deserve it, that I owe you.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, you do owe me. I mean, the fact of the matter is you've never looked better on television. I mean, before you were an unpolished individual, you was always a smart, brilliant dude, but you really didn't know television until you got you hooked up with me. Oh, is that right? Is that right? That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Okay. Then you have something to answer for. So I just spent last night reading Straight Shooter, the memoir of Second Change, is in first-hance by Stephen A. Smith. I'm just going through it, man. I was like, okay, Sean Hannity, Mark Levin, oh, look, Dan Orlovsky, Sam, Acho, zero references to Will King.

I mean, it was a slip-up. It was a slip-up on my part, man. And, you know, because you've been gone so long, I haven't seen you in so long, haven't spoken to you in a while. I mean, maybe it's your fault because you've been neglected me because you went to Fox, you big time,

and you didn't have time. Maybe that's what it was. Sean calls me all the time. I don't get those calls from. Will Kane often. Sean calls you more than I do? Yes, actually. Oh, then I need to worry on you.

He actually does call me more than you do. Actually, he calls to complain. He calls the gripe, you know, get on my nerves. But he does call. One of the things, to be honest, people often ask me about you. Sure. And one of the things that I always appreciate, and I try to communicate to people about not just our relationship,

but you as an individual, Stephen A. Smith, is that I would say, look, I am a white guy from small town, Texas. He is a black man from Hollis, Queens. Right. But there is something, maybe in our upbringing, maybe just in our constitutional nature, that is the same. In reading Straight Shooter, I saw some of our similarities and personality, and actually, Stephen A, some of our personalities in our life experience. Okay. And I want to start, while the parallels are not exact.

Sure. I want to start with, I actually found the most fascinating part of your life, something I didn't know in all the years that we've known each other. I want to start with your relationship with your dad. Okay. Explain to me your relationship with your father. It wasn't great. He was somebody that he just wasn't the man that he was supposed to be in my estimation. I'm not somebody that regardless of his lack of belief in me, his neglect. I'm not someone that looks at him or has ever looked at him and felt like, oh, I resent him because of what he didn't do for me. My resentment towards him was what he did. He did. to my mother, the fact that he left so much of what I believe to be a man's responsibility. I know that's not the most popular thing to say in today's culture, I don't give a damn.

I am a man and I believe that a man's responsibility is to provide for and to protect his family. That is your number one obligation. And so for me, if you have a wife, if you have children, you ain't eating unless they eat first. You ain't comfortable unless they're comfortable. If they're hungry, it's because you're starving. That's the mentality. And my father never, ever exercised that kind of thinking. My mother had to work 16 hours a day, seven days a week for 20 plus years with one week's vacation to take care of six children because he didn't fulfill his obligation to do so.

And so my resentment towards him was really, really about that because I had. had to watch her struggle and her be deprived of a level of happiness that, to me, that should have never been the situation. And so that's where a lot of it came from. I know about your relationship with your mother. I was with you when your mother passed. I know how important she was to your life. Yes. Do you think, Stephen A, you know, you described really vividly and really well that your dad, look, he wasn't violent. He simply checked out. He was physically present, but he wasn't

a part of your life. He was on the couch, watching sports. watching Westerns. Yep. And in fact, in the end, he ended up having a second family, in essence. Do you think having a dad, I'm curious about this, and I'm probably trying to play a little bit of psychoanalyst? I understand. Do you think your dad being so checked out and into sports,

in any way formed who you are and being so passionate about sports? In any way, was it a way to get the attention of your father? I think so, you know, because when I was in fourth grade and I'd gotten left back and had to repeat the fourth grade and I'm on my back porch crying because I was being humiliated by kids in the neighborhood I was incredibly embarrassed and it was an open window or say it in a book

and my mother and father in the kitchen they don't know that I'm right there on the back porch and my mother's talking to my father about how I got left back and she's very downtrod and she's very depressed very worried about me and my father was just very a matter of fact and he said the boy ain't smart

he's not going to be anything just give it up that's just the way it's going to be and so to hear him give up on me like that was bad enough but to hear him encouraging her to give up on me as well I thought it was a bit cruel and it really hit me in a certain way but I knew he loved sports and so when you're younger you're trying to gain the affection and the adulation of your dad because he's still your dad

and a few years later when my seventh grade teacher told my mother he's not done at all he just drifts he doesn't listen he doesn't hear but when he's locked in you got a star on your hands and I really really got into sports at that particular moment in time and as I studied sports and became more knowledgeable

I saw my father's interest in me grow but it was because he needed me to tell him about what was going on he needed somebody to bounce stuff off of somebody to debate to go back and forth with etc etc and when he saw that my knowledge of sports had elevated he had gained some degree of respect

for me That inspired me to learn even more about sports, to read more about it, to watch film, to employ the habits that I still employed at this very day, to watch games, and to go back and watch them, and the study plays, and the study was transpiring, all of these different things, because it made me seem pretty brilliant in his eyes, and that was a complete shift for what he felt about me when I was younger, and so it was basically my way of gaining his respect. So when you ask that question, of course, he had a lot to do with my passion for sports indirectly, not intentionally the way that, you know, that he intended, but it nevertheless ended up being that way. I want to weave in and out of your life and your memoir and your opinions. Your opinion is just such a huge part of who you are. And probably there are very few people in this world who are more familiar with your opinions than am I, meaning you and I've had debates over the years.

I remember our debates and I've watched you as a fan. So I'm going to apply some of your opinions to your life as well. So there's something I'm curious about. I agree. I share your view of what it is to be a man, especially in the context of a family. Yes. You have said something on TV that I have disagreed with to some extent. You know, very few people know this. I think you might know this. I actually care a lot about the black community. I want to see the success of black Americans. I happen to believe that. I happen to believe.

Yeah, and I happen to believe one of the most successful things that could happen for black Americans is the rebuilding of the family unit. those are statistic that 75% of black families are missing a father. Yes. Now, I've heard you on first take say you don't think that's fair and you think it's wrong to talk about that statistic and it being a problem with black Americans. With your view or black American household, with your view on the role of the father and the necessity of what it is to be a man, how do you not see that as a problem? Well, I want to clarify what you're saying because I don't think that I quite stated it that way.

when I'm talking about a lot of times people say if you are a father out of wedlock if you're a father that's not in the home with your child they interpret that as being detached what I'm attacking is is that your relationship with the mother is one thing and obviously that's incredibly helpful if you're united if you're in unison with one another it makes it considerably easier to raise a child as a father out of well like I certainly know that and have to admit that and understand that some somebody like yourself who is married with children, you're in a better position to be the father that you want to be than I am to be the father that I want to be. But in the same breath, I am an active participant in my child's life, in my daughter's life. I am somebody that's there all the time. I'm not some deadbeat dad. And there's an abundance of men out here who genuinely love their children with all of their heart. And they are active participants in their child's life without being married or involved with their mother. And so when people bring that up, what I was saying was don't think for one second that because a man is not in the home

and he doesn't have primary custody of that child because he and the mom are not together does not necessarily mean that he is not an active participant and a loving father in their child's life. That is the only position that I was taking. And, you know, I never even heard your opinion through the prism of your personal life. You guard your personal life. To be honest, until this memoir, you know, you and I are in the same building together every day. You didn't talk much about your family. That's right?

You didn't talk about your personal life. You guard it. I think that's fair, right? Yeah, yeah, but you remember if you look in the book, that should tell you why. Number one, I had a mother who was incredibly private. Number two, my mother taught me that your family business is your business. Number three, the reason for that is because all your business isn't all your business. Sometimes inevitably, by talking about things, you're talking about other people's business,

and they don't want that business put out there. And because of that, like for me personally, I have nothing to hide. For me, but you're being respectful. But I'm being respectful of other people. And because you're respectful of other people, it could be my daughters. It could be their mom. It could be their aunt. It could be their grandma.

It could be a lot of people that doesn't want anything said. And that's why you say that. But me as an individual, I run from nothing. We'll be right back with more of the Will Cain podcast. Listen to the all-new Brett Bear podcast featuring Common Ground, in-depth talks with lawmakers from opposite sides of the aisle, along with all your Brett Bear favorites like his all-star panel and much more. Available now at Fox News Podcasts.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is Jason Chaffetz from the Jason in the House podcast. Join me every Monday to dive deeper into the latest political headlines and chat with remarkable guests. Listen and follow now at Fox News Podcast. or wherever you download podcasts but now i understand your opinion that you were espousing about fatherhood through through the prism of your own personal life that's right and i think you can hold both opinions i think you can say what you have said in this in essence in defense of your own fatherhood yes and others like you that's right and at the same time say but from a macro level it's better

without question without question without question i mean there is no doubt that i've done my daughters are disservice by not being married. No doubt about it. Because regardless of the father that I strive to be and believe that I am, regardless of the fact that I have a very close and loving relationship with my daughters, there is no question that it's better not to have a child out of wedlock. I am not advocating that by any stretch of the imagination. What I'm saying is, is if you find yourself in that situation, then you have to work overtime to be the man that you're supposed to be.

Like my mother said to me when I was 16 years old, don't be like your dad. And then when I became a dad, she sat up there and said, okay, I don't like this at all. There's the only time in your life I've ever been ashamed. She said, but you're going to make up for it by being the best father that you could possibly be.

And that's what I've been dedicated to ever since for the last 14 years and counting. And I will be for the rest of my life because that's the very least that I can do and should do. What's the most insecure you've been in your life? Outside of when I got left back, it's when I got fired by ESPN in 2009 because that was when I became a father. So I was unemployed at the time that I became a father,

on the verge of unemployment, rather, and I was scared to death because because of my upbringing and growing up poor and watching my mother's struggle and what have you, I literally was scared to death that I was on the very, verge indirectly or unintentionally of being my father, meaning that if I didn't have a job, if I couldn't get out there and build a career will and restore what I once had, well, now it wasn't just me. I was a dad. And so I have obligations. I have responsibilities. And to face that reality and being unemployed, you know, I was very fortunate that I was smart

enough to sort of sense it was coming. So I saved enough money where I didn't have to compromise my quality of life while I was unemployed for like the first six to eight months. But I was scared to death, man. Well, okay, you know, I'm talking you up, but I think anybody that knows me knows I don't give gratuitous compliments. So what I like about the memoir, okay, and what I think is interesting about you on a personal level, anybody spends some time with you, Stephen A, beneath the bravado, there is a hint of vulnerability, okay?

In the memoir, you begin to see where that originates. Right. You begin to see the origins of the vulnerability. So when I ask you about insecurity, okay, I didn't know where you would answer. I didn't know if you'd answer when you got to let go by ESPN. Because another thing you talk about in the book, which I think a lot of fans are going to appreciate of you revealing your own vulnerability is, for example, your basketball career. You know, your former co-host, a guy that I only got to know a few times, Skip Baylis, has, you know, had what, 2.4 thrown in his face, which I think was his high school basketball average, whatever. It's been used as a tool to throw in the face of Skip Bayliss.

And you talk about your own basketball career, and you say, look, I was, there's a great line. You say something like I was a part-time starter in high school, sub, Juco. You kind of go through it, and then you were injured at Winston-Salem. Yeah. And I didn't know, like, when I asked you what your biggest insecurity, you know, what you might answer, where it might lie. Is it what you talked about, getting held back? Yeah. Is it getting fired?

Is it not living up to your basketball expectations? Well, the basketball expectations I never cared about because I knew that was injured. You know, I had chronic tendonitis because I was playing on the cements throughout New York City. I had a bad knee and whatever, and whenever I was healthy, I could ball. And people that got on the court with me knew I could ball. But, you know, I knew I wasn't healthy. So when my attendance finally gave out, didn't support the kneecap of my kneecap split in half. My first year in college, that was that.

So I totally understood that. And by the way, before I went there, I was like five. 130 pounds. So, you know, I remember one time somebody joked and they tried to lie about some stata. I had to throw out some two point or whatever. And I was like, actually, it was less than that because I didn't play because I cracked my kneecap and had. What are you talking about? But that's neither here nor there. Me getting left back and me getting let go by ESPN were the two biggest things that really resonated with me. And when people talk about, you bring up my provider and all that other stuff, you know, somebody like yourself and

others who know me a little bit better than the average show, you can speak to this. I'm on TV debating sports, that's when you see my provado. Nobody sees the provado of me walking in the streets. Oh, get out of here. That is absolutely true. You think you don't walk with swagger down the streets or into a studio? But what I'm saying to you, I'm talking about when you have a conversation with me about me. If you listen to me talk about me, you don't get that when we're talking about sports, sure.

When we're talking about life, I don't get into my personal business, but I don't walk around like, yo, you know what? I don't have a candle world. I'm not vulnerable to anything. Life is great, blah, blah, blah. I've overcome obstacles throughout my life, and it doesn't matter what obstacles you throw in front of me. I'm going to overcome it. My bravado might come from that,

but make no mistake about it. I've always had vulnerability. I don't have it in front of me. But you end the book with like, here I come. That's right. Here I come. Let me tell you this bravado doesn't end when the cameras turn off. It doesn't.

It doesn't. But it's because of what I've overcome. It's because of what I've overcome. No matter what, man, listen, if you haven't been through it, whatever it is, then you don't know. But when you've been through hell and you've scratched and clawed your way out of it, it's very few things that you think can hold you back. Because it's like, okay, y'all tried to get me. You know what I'm saying? Whoever they may be my father, it might be friends.

It might be a teacher in high school, the guidance, the guidance counsel that laughed in my face when I said, I want to go to college. It could be anybody. But the point is, when you go through what I've been through, if you come out on this side, yeah, there's a part of you that's like, I made it. Are you insecure now? About some things. Yeah. I think so. I'm always contemplating the future.

When they let me go in 2009, and no one would touch me. And I say no one would touch me for television. Nobody. That stays with you. I'm always believing I'm a check from being unemployed. When I give speeches and I go on the lecture circuit, I often use this statement. I'm brilliant because I know I'm not. I steal from those who are.

I learn along the way and I persevere. I tell people that all the time because I want people to understand. I never assume I've arrived. I always know you can cut me off at the knees at any given moment. That's why I'm always ready because I don't take anything for granted. That's where my success comes from. not in believing that I'm this guy. It's feeling that I'm not

and that constantly working to prove I can be that guy and never taking it for granted. That's how I am, which is why I work so hard. It's absurd that a guidance counselor or a... Laft. Well, and the teachers that held you...

Look, or your dad. Yep. Look, man, I've known you for a long time. One thing you can't be accused of is not being smart. I mean, that's absurd. You know what? I want to talk about you and me for a minute.

I want to talk about you and me as a proxy for a larger conversation in America. Okay. First of all, what's the maddest you've ever been at me? Honestly, Will, this is going to shock you. I've never been mad at you. Come on. Never.

One time I came in your office, one time. No. Do you remember? Remind me. Refresh my memory. Okay, so people always say, man, you guys really went out. I said, you know the thing about it soon it was over? This.

Exactly. It was dapp it up. And it's not, that doesn't, is never fake. Never, right? Never. But what it means is we could set it aside and be men after the disagreement. Right. But one time I walked into your office and you said, you went over the line.

Which was what we were talking about? It was Hugh Jackson and you thought I got too angry. Yeah, but what I'm saying to you is that I wasn't angry at you. I was saying you got too angry. That's what I'm trying to tell you. See, for me... I think I said, are we cool? And you go, not really.

No, I didn't say, that's not true. Now, that's not true. I never said that to you. And I wouldn't say that to you because I've always appreciated. the fact that you stand on what you believe and you're fair-minded and I was the one that was encouraging you when everybody was talking about you look man

you at ESPN and you spew these views and wait a minute now and I said it's got to be spute it could be a spouse it could be elucidate all right whatever whatever use whatever word works for you either way I know the definition of all three but the point is is that for me I was the one who told you

be yourself yeah and as long as you are you and you're fair we're good and so a lot of times people will say, man, how do you take that guy? It's a damn debate show. What is he supposed to do? Agree with me? No. If he feels differently, let him feel that

way. You have every right. You're a white dude from the south. I'm from the streets in New York City. Chances are we ain't going to agree. But if we respect one another and we're fair-minded, and we definitely express our views as accurately as we possibly can, that's all we owe each other. And that's cool. One of the things

we had in common, that's back to our childhood. Like you said in the book, Iron Sharpen's iron. And you got into it with your dad on sports. Yeah. My dinner table was no kumbaya. That's right. But it wasn't angry either. It was, I mean, my dad would tell me I was full of it in no uncertain terms. Wow. But it wasn't. Oh, I mean, he expected me to come back.

Let's go. What do you have? That's right. And that's how to be with my friends. Yeah. Like, that's why I felt like it was never a problem. We hit off. Like, if I don't like you, I'm probably not going to talk to you. That's right. Not sit there and tell you you're full of it. Yeah.

Right. Well, let's keep this also in mind as well. I mean, even though I'm the executive the producer of the show now, I wasn't back then. But despite the fact that I wasn't back then, it wasn't like I didn't have some influence. If I didn't want you on the show, you wouldn't have been on the show. I always knew that. Yes. And you always knew that. And yet, you were on there. You were on there constantly because I wanted you on the show, because I thought you did a great job and I thought you were fair-minded and you knew what the hell you were talking about. You knew what you felt. And that's what mattered to me. And you trusted who I was as a human being, I think. And so

in other words, what you're talking about was. And other people said, why you have that guy on, I'm sure it often came with, because he's a racist or whatever, and you knew who I was. Exactly. And we just disagreed. No, absolutely. I would always defend you to the end with that. To this day, I would defend you about that. No, I told you back then, I'd tell you to your face, I'd tell you now, my criticism of you is too often that you ignore individual facts and circumstances and draw the larger racial narrative, right? I think we were on your radio show one time. I told you were, you were full of it. I said, no, you weren't. You weren't. You're still not right. But what else is do? I mean, the bottom line is that you're going to feel what you feel.

No, but it's just, for real, Steve. It's like, Tony Romo, I remember you said something about Tony Romo getting honored at the MAVs game, and you made it black, white, or whatever. And there's several examples, but what it was for me was, and you're incredibly fair-minded and incredibly smart. So I'm like, why are you, by the way, this was always the situation on first take. It didn't matter if it was, what, it was Kaepernick or whatever it might be. It was like, let's look at the individual facts of Bubba Wallace. We didn't do that one together, I don't think. But like, let me see if the facts add up to whether or not this is race.

Let's not leap to the prism of race. That's fine. But as a white guy, you can take that position. As a black guy, I think differently from time than time. Not always. Where I would attack and push back at you is when you used word always. Because there were plenty of times that I didn't do that. That's fair.

So what I'm saying is I'm like, yeah, Will, I feel this way about this. It could be cap and the kid. It could be the Tony Romo situation, his relationship with Jerry Jones. You just had one. I'm not there on a job. Celtics coach. You, EMA, UDoka. Yeah.

Yes. You said it wouldn't happen to a white coach. Exactly, because covering the NBA, I know a plethora of white dudes that are messing around in the office, and it wasn't publicized. You either fire them or you keep them, and it's an in-house HR matter. What you don't do is have press conferences revealing some dalliances have been going on and stuff like that. I'm like, really, that's what we're doing now? And if you notice, everybody got quiet because nobody wanted me or anybody covering the NBA to get into the plethora. of white individuals in professional sports

and executive positions that have been messing around over the years. We happen to know those stories and we wouldn't think to publicize them. So why is it that this man is having press conferences where they're talking about him? He wasn't the one who was married. He wasn't married. He made you know what was not married. Okay? He had some kind of relationship with whomever. He was not married. It's an HR matter.

That was my position. Now we get him. Here we go. I'm like, fire him or keep him. But what you don't do is publicize it. See, that was my point. First take, Stephen A. That's what I'm talking about.

That would be me. That would be me. Don't go anywhere. More of the Will Cain podcast right after this. I'm Janice Dean. Join me every Sunday as I focus on stories of hope and people who are truly rays of sunshine in their community and across the world. Listen and follow now at Fox Newspodcast.com.

No, I want to correct the record because you're right. You're not always doing that. You're not always drawing the racial prison. You are unpredictable. And then sometimes you're just wrong. That's fine. But keep in mind, you have an abundance of black folks who don't feel that I'm right to my own community because I'm fair-minded. And when a white person is right, I'm able to say, hey, they're right.

And by the way, it's not about race. They're just right at this particular instance. How much does that bother you? When the black, I don't know, I don't know if you get Tom thrown in your facts. I don't know what you... Yes, I have. I have on many occasions. Sell out, whatever.

Oh, yes, absolutely. How much does that bother you? Oh, it'll tick me off from this perspective. I know what battles I fight on behalf of us every day of my life. And the thing that I think hurts my community is that I don't know of any other community who does what we do to each other. The second, you can agree with each other 99% of the time. The second you disagree, your authenticity as a black person is brought in. to question by folks in the black community.

I think it's one of the most egregious things that we do to each other, that no other race of group of people that I see do to each other. And I think it's disgusting. And it is what it is. But when you sit in my seat and when you've achieved what I've achieved, usually people are coming at you like that because it's almost like the message is being sent.

You could not possibly have achieved unless you're selling out. And I beg to differ with that. I think that a lot of us in the black community are successful are incredibly authentic to who we are and as it pertains to our love for our own community. We're just fair-minded. And when wrong is wrong, wrong is wrong. And you're just going to call it like you see it

and that's what comes with it. So I actually wanted to introduce the topic of race as well because I want, you know, I think in a different world you and I would have done this on Monday morning on first take. You know, we would have talked about maybe. I don't know if there's enough of a connection to sports, but Tyree Nichols. Yes, we would have talked about it.

You're going to talk about it on Monday? I don't know if we'll talk about it this one that we may, but we would have you and I, we have talked about it. We would have talked about. We would have talked about. Without question. So Tyree Nichols is beat by five officers to death in Memphis, Tennessee, five black officers. Universal condemnation. You and I agree. I mean, this is horrendous, these officers. I like what one of my colleagues, Dan Von Gino, said, I don't think this is a training issue. This is a personnel issue. Sometimes there's bad people in this world who do bad things, and they need to be held to account. Okay.

And justice. The question is, as we do in these instances, is there a larger conversation? about policing and race. Without question. Without question, there's a larger conversation because, see, this is what everybody needs to understand. You got five black police officers who did this to a young black man. That's not about black or white, it's about blue. And when you have rogue officers, because clearly they are rogue, and Dan Bongino was right and accurate in pointing that out, the point is that you're a part of the problem when you stand and do nothing. and you're in a position to do something.

If you are a police officer, you're in a position to do something. Those five police officers, none of y'all knew to do the right thing. What about the officers who came afterwards? Because there was about three or four additional police officers who showed up. None of y'all were in a position to do anything.

This is the kind of stuff that we're talking about here. You're talking about a 150-pound kid that was restrained by five police officers. two officers held him down while another officer came and kicked him in the face twice then after that they picked him up held him up while another officer

came and then punched him in the face twice then another officer came while he was still being held clearly clearly out of it and you hit him with batons or night sticks I mean you've got to be kidding me and then think about it it was caught by a surveillance campbell above across the street.

The body cams didn't reveal all of that because they literally had covered up the body cams and was yelling and screaming as if they were trying to restrain them when the overhead satellite cams showed they already had them restrained. And you still did what you did. And so when you see something like that

as heinous as it is as far as I'm concerned, they should never be let out of prison. They should get a life sentence as far as I'm sure. All five of them, that's number one. Number two, when we talk about things systemically, we've had situations in the past, you have Freddie Gray's situation, there were black officers as well. But there was also obviously been many cases where it involved white officers, where it involved people being shot in the back. We're so protective of making sure that all law enforcement officials are not castigated, that sometimes we don't pay enough attention to what's transpiring systemically and how that needs to be addressed and how we need those good officers help. order to pull it off. And so what I'm saying is that has to be a priority to call on the police

officers, to look them dead in the face and say, you know you're better. You know you're better than no sorry, no good officers that did what they did. You know you would never do something like that. So rather than just Dan Bongino, who used to be associated with Secret Service, obviously, and who does a great job for you guys because I like them, you know, rather than him calling out and being protective of law enforcement. Why don't you in law enforcement be protective of law enforcement by saying, that's them. That ain't us.

And joining the people to make sure you bring the hammer down on all those who transgress. So let me tell you the point of view from essentially the opposite side of the spectrum. I don't know that there is, I don't know that I can agree with you that there is an instinct to protect law enforcement. These days, I feel like there's an instinct to malign law enforcement. systemically. By the black community, sure. Okay, well, maybe that. Well, let me, I want to share with you two points of view, okay? And I want to get your reaction. Okay. I don't really know who she is, but I think she's an activist of some kind, Breesome Bass.

Okay. Okay. She tweets out, um, policing itself must be abolished. This is the problem of the institution, not a handful of blue-collar personnel hired to carry out a business structure. She says, in essence, black or white, you are blue. And if you are blue, you're participating in a system of white supremacy. Our former colleague, Mel Hill, says, we need to look at who controls the institution of policing? It's the white elite in the ruling class and who is most impacted by the violence of policing, poor people, the working class, and black people. Okay. So they're calling for essentially, if not the abolishment, then reimagining of police. Modifications, I think, are necessary, but I would never call for the embellishment of law

enforcement. We've got bad apples throughout our society in all shapes, colors, and sizes, and genders, I might add. It ain't just men commit crimes, women to commit crimes, too. We understand that. There has to be law and order. There is no doubt about that. And I know for a fact that the vast majority of folks in the black community and every other community, we're in trouble bruise. We're dollar 9-1-1. So I'm not going to lose my sense of self and talk about how we need to abolish policing. Hell no. I don't believe in that. at all. Yes, I do believe that there are some bad apples. They need to be weeded out and addressed. And the good members in law enforcement need to put forth their due diligence

and work just as diligently as we're employing others to do to weed those bad apples out. But I am not an advocate of abolishing policing by any stretch of the imagination. I will say more money needs to be poured in than the necessary training. We also need to put forth a strenuous exerted effort to make sure we weed out those bad apples and we get people on the right track because that's what our system is all about and I'm not deviating from that

by any stretch and match. I don't care what anybody says. We need police officers. We just need police officers not to be rogue and to do their job and to respect the right of American civilians and obviously that includes black Americans. We're a part of this country too.

We deserve to be treated fairly. Treat us like you would treat anybody else. And by the way, don't commit criminal acts like these five officers just did. Period. One thing I know about you, and you don't hide it, it's in the book, is you love politics. Yeah. You said you have two Super Bowls in the year. Yeah. You know, the Super Bowl. And presidential debates. And presidential debates. Yeah. I know you want to have a late night show. You don't hide that as well. You have much greater ambitions. What do you think about the current state of politics? What do you think about the current president of the United States, Joe Biden?

Well, first thing to answer that first question, I don't, I think that our politics are worse than they've ever been. I think this country is divided more so than it has been in my lifetime. I won't say ever because obviously I was born in 1967 and that was near the tail end of the civil rights movement. And those who came before me have a right to say that it was worse than than it is now. They were no better than me. I would tell you in my lifetime, I've never seen it this bad, never seen it this divisive. And I blame Capitol Hill for it primarily, not solely, but probably. primarily. The reason I say that is because we have to get back to understanding the importance

of decorum. We understand that when you have a constituency out there, everybody ain't going to tell the truth all the time. Everybody going to, you know, put this on people. You know what people are going to say right there. You tell me, Stephen A. Smith on first take is preaching to us about decorum. Yes, but I know how to act. Just because I raise my voice or whatever doesn't mean, I don't know how to act. I mean, I'm not lying to folks. I'm not being divisive purposefully just for the sake of building a constituency that will keep me in power. I'm not ignoring the needs and the desires of the American people. I pretend to represent. I'm not doing those things. They are. And so when you look at it from that perspective, and to me, here's where it's really alarming to me in terms of

our politics. Will Kane, I can't sit up there and call you a racist and the no good SOB and all of this other stuff. Now let's go to the negotiating table and work on policy for the American people. can't do that. These people do it to each other every day. They act like juveniles. They don't come together. Everybody's always right. There's no compromise. There's no real negotiation. I'm talking about

what they give off. I'm not following them so intimately where I can authenticate whether they talk to one another or not. But the impression that they give us is so divisive to the well-being of this country. They are directly responsible for

the regression that we've seen take place. for our very eyes. And that is what bothers me more than anything else. You can't always get everything that you want. But we put them up there on Capitol Hill to work together, which is why I was so happy at what happened with the midterms. I too thought there was going to be a red wave. I thought that the Republicans were going to romp the Democrats. I was shocked, shocked that the Democrats maintain the Senate, that, you know, the House, I mean, obviously the House was one with Kevin McCarthy and all of these guys, but I expected it to be significantly steeper than

it ended up being. And the American people basically said, woke culture, we ain't down with that. Maga Republicans, we ain't down with that either. Those are the fringes. But 85 plus percent of this population leads more towards civility, not necessarily centrist,

but more towards civility, as opposed to just kidding what they want. And I think that that's what we've got to get back to, and I don't think that these politicians push for that. And I think that that's one part of the problem. Because when you got stuff like that going up on Capitol Hill, who are y'all that tell us about anything else that's going on with our society

when I elected officials are acting the way that they act? I know you say you're not a Republican, you're not a Democrat, you're an independent. I know you weren't a fan of Donald Trump. Are you a fan of Joe Biden? Not really. I mean, I got to tell you that I think he's spending entirely too much money. I'm one of those people as a black man that I believe when white folks catch a cold, black folks catch pneumonia.

No matter how bad it is for y'all is going to be worse for us. And when you're spending that much money, eventually it's going to be called in. I mean, we've got trillions of dollars in debt. We're spending money and we're throwing money at problems and thinking that there's not going to be any fallback. I just think that's foolhardy. And so for me, again, I'd like to see more compromise. I look at our borders. I am all for illegal immigration.

Illegal immigration, I don't like the way sometimes the problem is conveyed. It's just a level of cynicism that gets tinged in the mix. and it just makes me uncomfortable. But it is a problem. It's a problem Barack Obama acknowledged during his administration. It was a problem. Bill Clinton acknowledged during his administration. George W. Bush acknowledged it during his administration.

So let's not pretend that it's not a problem that needs to be addressed now. Okay, national security. Yeah, you know, I'm not this nationalist. You know, I believe in ingratiating ourselves with the international community. But I also applaud us when we ask the questions, well, why are we involved? in this? Why are we throwing all of this money here, here, or here? Let's ask those questions because it is our money. We got a lot

of problems in America that we need to resolve and for some reason we can't seem to do it but we're ready to help everybody else. I don't have a problem with American citizens that ask those questions because to me if you're a politician you should have the answer. It shouldn't be, oh, that side doesn't

care. Oh, that side is racist. Oh, this side just wants to take us back in time and I don't fall for that because that's engaging in demagoguery and what you're trying to do is scare us into voting for you as opposed to saying excuse me, our policies are better

than yours. That's what I want to see politicians debating and giving the American people a chance to make a choice about it. Well, we can end here, Stephen A, I actually think the American politics and I think the American family could actually benefit a lot from being more like first take. I think it

could benefit of being more like the relationship that you and I've had, where you go straight at it. You share your disagreements face to face, man to man. And then it's over. But what I'm saying is issues, not pettiness. No, I'm with you. Where you're trying to get people to look like, oh, so I don't agree with Will. Right.

So Will and I are arguing. But what I want to do is instead paint him as somebody he don't like people who look differently than him just because we disagree. No, let's stick to the issue. What are we debating about? Let's talk about that. That's what we need to get back to. Really debating and discussing issues instead of trying to engage in scare tech. just to make sure somebody votes on your side.

That's what I would like to see. Man, the entire time I've known you, it's been a constant rocket ship up. It's good to read the memoir and see the ups and downs of that roller coaster ride. It wasn't always a rocket ship up. But I know how hard you work. Everybody knows how big a star. There you go. He's now a bestseller.

Straight Shooter, a memoir of second chances and first takes. You've got to go get it. Take it from number five to number one. How about that? All right, Stephen A. Smith. It's great to see you again, buddy. Good to see you, buddy. Take care.

All the best. There you go. I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Stephen A. Smith. If you enjoyed this podcast, please give it a five-star review. It always helps because it's in the algorithm of Apple and Spotify that it has then shared with others. When I ask you to leave a comment, it's for the same reason. I don't think for my own personal edification because I do read the comments, but also because it helps others to discover the Will Kane podcast. So if you think it's so worthy, leave a comment and leave at five.

star review. Check out the No Mercy podcast, which is Stephen A's podcast. And of course, it's on sale now. Go buy Straight Shooter. I'll see you again next time. Listen to ad free with a Fox News podcast plus subscription on Apple Podcasts. And Amazon Prime members, you can listen to this show, ad free on the Amazon Music app. It is time to take the quiz. It's five questions in less than five minutes. We ask people on the streets of New York City to play along. Let's see how you Take the quiz every day at the quiz.box, then come back here to see how you did. Thank you for taking the quiz.