Will Cain Country - Who Won The Debate With Pete Hegseth & Sean Duffy

Episode Date: August 25, 2023

As the candidates take to the airwaves to spin their debate performances, Will is joined by his FOX&Friends Co-Host, Pete Hegseth, and Co-Host of The Bottom Line and the From The Kitchen Table podcast, Sean Duffy, to breakdown the debate. Will, Sean, and Pete recap the highs and lows of the night, who they thought won and lost the debate, and how the night will affect the state of the race.     Tell Will what you thought about this podcast by emailing [e-mail]   Follow Will on Twitter: @WillCain Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

For a limited time at McDonald's, enjoy the tasty breakfast trio. Your choice of chicken or sausage McMuffin or McGrittles with a hash brown and a small iced coffee for $5.5 plus tax. Available until 11 a.m. at participating McDonald's restaurants. Price excludes flavored iced coffee and delivery. Who won? Who lost? presidential primary debate, a conversation, a hangout with Pete Hexeth and Sean Duffy. It's the Will Kane podcast on Fox News Podcast. What's up? And welcome to the weekend. Welcome to Friday. As always, I hope you will download, rate, and review this podcast wherever you get your

audio entertainment at Apple, Spotify, or at Fox News podcasts. The Fox News Republican presidential primary debate was Wednesday night, and the story has been all about Vivek Ramoswamy. I thought I'd invite my two friends, Pete Hegseth, of Fox and Friends, and Sean Duffy of the bottom line on Fox Business, to join me in breaking down who they thought won, who they thought lost, and what were the big moments of the debate. Here is Pete Hegseth and Sean Duffy. Welcome to the broadcast, Pete Hegseth, Sean Duffy, and Will Kane, breaking down the Republican presidential primary debate.

Pete Duffy, Pete Hedfe is surrounded by American flags, should have sparklers going off, and Sean's got his microphone doing a lounge singer act. Glad to have you both with me today. Thank you, Will. Good stuff. Good to be here well. All right, so let's talk about the debate last night. Let's start with who won. You know, we're going to leave out the obvious name of the man who's running 50 points ahead of everyone else.

And without a clear winner, it will always be that the winner of, Debates when it comes to Republicans is Donald Trump, but in a bit like it was the minors, you know, we're looking for who's next, or we're looking for who steps up in case of injury or indictment. So if that's the case, who stood out to you guys last night? Who do you think, one, to put themselves essentially in second place for the Republican primary for president? Sean, who do you think one? So I think it was clearly Vivek Rom Swami. he was clear in his messaging. He was distinguishing himself from other candidates on the stage

and did a really good job of actually getting in fights and arguments with others, baiting them in. And that allowed him to get the 30-second responses. And if you're trying to introduce yourself to the American people, the more time, the better. I didn't feel like Tim Scott showed up at all at the debate. Got very little time. So Vivek, I thought, took the day. Unique ideas. think it resonated with the Republican voter base, and he clearly won. Pete? Yeah, I know I agree with that. I think Vivek was the Donald Trump avatar. He was, he played the role of Trump. But what was interesting is, I keep coming back to DeSantis, because I think he hit a solid double. He wasn't great, but you saw flashes of it.

But then you also saw, especially toward the end, the movement back toward the more conventional canned portion. And I think the reason he was a little hitting a double and not a home run is that he didn't have his primary foil, which is Donald Trump. Until Donald Trump is on the stage, no one else feels the need to take on DeSantis because it's been Trump that's taking him down 20 pegs with all the nicknames and taking him on and no personality. I mean, Trump saw DeSantis as his main threat. He eroded his numbers for months. Now there's a stage and he's not really that same threat. No one felt the need to come at him. So he, I think he steadied the ship a little bit, but until Trump's on, until that moment, because when, when DeSantis says, well, I'm a blue collar

kid who worked minimum wage jobs and I deployed alongside the Navy Seals and I went to Yale and Harvard and I earned my way. And those are all good things. And then Trump cuts him off and says, yeah, but you were going to lose as governor. And then I picked you and you won and you owe me and you abandoned me. Like that's the moment we're going to find out who DeSantis is and how he stares down his main opponent. And until Trump's there, I don't think he can hit anything but doubles because everyone else is kind of moving. And then I think she wasn't my cup of tea. And I think females view it differently. But I think Nikki Haley had a good performance in the eyes of many. And I think we'll elevate her a little bit. But Vivek definitely was the centerpiece of this.

Let's talk about each. Pete for a second. Let me just disagree. So it was not a double. I think, Pete. I think this was he got walked. at best. Again, I think he had to come and he had to razzle dazzle a little bit. He had to show up and get some sparkle, get some shine. He's losing donors. He's down on the polls. Yeah, he gave

quality answers. You know, they're a little bit talky, pointy, in the responses. He needed much more than that. So he got on base, but he didn't hit any balls, I think, last night. The only one who did hit was Vibake. I would agree with you, though, on Nikki Haley. Quickly, a lot of

women I talk to you, loved that she was pushing back against Vivek. A lot of guys did not. I think maybe my wife is a little more in line with the men. She was like, I thought it was horrible. She wasn't very good. But a lot of women she resonated with, which I found interesting. So, Sean, I wish you'd stop saying somebody needs to sparkle. It reminds me of Chris Matthews and looking for a tingle up his leg or something like that. You got to check at the door, the sparkle requirement. But let's stay on to Santis for a minute. So I'm somewhere around what both of you are saying. I was tempted to say what you said, Pete, that he hit a double.

Look, DeSantis was solid. He didn't make mistakes. He didn't, and I don't think that's what you're arguing either, Sean, when you say he got to walk. Like, he didn't hurt himself last night. But in a way, that's a loss. And I like Ron DeSantis. But in a way that's a loss because he should win. In the absence of Donald Trump, I think he should stand out.

He should look bigger. He should stand taller. The weight of the stage should tilt towards Ron DeSantis. And it didn't. It just didn't last night. And he literally was between Mike Pence and Vivek Ramaswamy where all the action was. The action was on both sides of DeSantis. And I guess you could argue, well, okay, it's a victory to come out of the first debate unscathed.

But I don't think standing next to Donald Trump will help him, Pete. I think if he can't do it, if he can't rise in this environment, I'm nervous for him. If I'm a huge supporter of DeSantis, I would be, like I said, he got second or third place last night. And that's a bit of a loss because really in that environment last night, he needed to be in first. I think, and I think you made the key point on the Fox Nation pregame show last night about DeSantis. He thrives in that conflict. At least we've seen that in conflict with the media. He did it for a second when he talked about the corporate media and that question, what was that first question on abortion?

and he kind of said, I'm not raising my hand, I'm not playing your game, you're trying to put us in a box, and like, he's done that well in the past. But that's really the only conflict he had. You're right. It was Pence and Vivek and everybody else. So the moment will be when he's staring down the guy who is 40 points ahead of him and has been targeting him for months. And whether he has a moment where he takes him on or he shies away, I don't think he wins that battle. But I think last night, because he wasn't having to respond and attack and counterattack, he sort of floated back into the canned, you know, Ruby O'lane of here's how I inspire people based on my background. And that's going to get you a walk, a single or a double.

But it's not going to catapult you to where he would need to be. Sean, I thought it was smart. I do think there was two moments for DeSantis, and Pete brought up one of them. It was smart to, you know, I think the handraise thing puts a candidate in a bad position. I think it's too much of a binary and too cute. And I thought he was smart to reject it. I thought he was smart to reject the handraise. And secondarily, I thought he was... I love it for TV, though, Will. I love it for TV. Oh, it's good TV. But if I'm running... I sit there. It's great TV.

It's great TV, but if I'm a candidate, I think I would want to do what DeSantis did. Like, you're not boxing me in. And then secondarily, Sean, I thought he was smart also in rejecting the look back to January 6th. I think that was a hand raise about Donald Trump. Was that what that one was? It was like, raise your hand. If you'll... I can't. Would you, do you think Mike Pence did the right thing? I think that's what that handraise was about. But I thought he was smart to say, if we do this, if we look back to January 6th, we're playing right into the DNC. We're playing right into Joe Biden because that is what they want to talk about and they will try to make the general election about. I think

he was smart to look forward. So first off, I'm still stewing on the fact that you called me off for saying Sparkle. I feel like I checked my man card in for this podcast, which is troubling to me. me. I'm going to let that go, though, Will. But I disagree a little bit. You know, I do, I think you have to, you have to be bold. You can't be afraid to say, you know, yes or no to January 6th. And I think he got that question wrong. The reason Donald Trump is being prosecuted, it does go back to his presidency, it goes back to the lies of Russia collusion, but it goes back to January 6th. We're living with January 6th today. They're still trying to tarnish

every single Republican, every single candidate, and the FBI, the DOJ, they're targeting conservatives. And so you can't put that in the past. That is relevant right now. And it would have been an opportunity to go, you know what, we are going to write the wrongs of political prosecution with regard to Donald Trump. We're living January 6th right now. We do want to put it behind us. We don't want to relive it. But we're forced to relive it because Democrats keep throwing it in our face and prosecuting one Donald Trump, his team, his attorneys, And we're not going to stand for it. And I think Vivek was the only one who had the right answer, which was, you know what?

I think he's been the greatest president in the 21st century, which he's right. And then he set out, pardon him. No one else went that far. And if you want to win Donald Trump voters, which they all have to because Donald Trump is polling more than 50 percent, you've got to somehow endure yourself to those voters. And Vivek did that with that answer. Ron DeSantis, being kind of smarmy and trying to squirm around the question, he looked week. And just one

quick other point, when you make the analogy of the stage tilting towards candidates, I love that analogy, and it's beautiful. And the stage did not tilt toward Ronda Santis last night. And if you're going to take on Donald Trump, you should have been the gorilla on

the stage. You should have owned the stage last night. Yeah, I 100 percent agree with that. I agree. It's probably third place that past. Instead, real quick, I mean, I think the image, oh, go ahead, go ahead, Will. I was just say, I agree with that. I agree with that. I think on your other point, Sean, and Pete, you can jump in this. I just think there's a needle you have to thread because you're not wrong, Sean.

I don't disagree. We have to talk about the DOJ. We have to talk about the FBI. We have to talk about the politicization of the indictments. But we have to do it in a way. And that question was about Pence. Did Pence do the right thing on January 6th, right? That's what you can't go back to.

I don't think you can literally go back to that day, Pete. The first part of that question, though, was about pardoning Trump and, you know, him being, I think the question was, if he was actually convicted, would you, would you pardon him or would you support him for president? And Vivek was like this. And then remember the other side of the stage went up slowly after that. And the one guy looked around. And Ron looked around, saw the hands up and gave the half hand. He did. I mean, it was the half hand. And then in Ukraine, when Vivek said no, Ron gave the half hand. And then on abortion, he was like, I reject your premise, which I respect that. but he also gave a half non-answer there. So your tap, and that's part of the reason why you never get out the gates. He's trying to serve multiple masters, trying to be the Trump voter, sound like Trump, but is still very conventional.

And in a stage like that where Vivek can be bold and talk clearly in ways that are more Trumpian, it doesn't punch through. All right, let's talk about Vivek. So I think Vivek is the most fascinating character in the debate last night because I think he was incredibly polarizing. Now, I think all three of us here know Vivek to some extent personally, and there's a lot that Vivek says that I really like, but I'm not going to let that cloud what I think about his performance, okay, and this is what I'm talking about, because the debate is about,

it's less about policy, honestly, and it's more about performance. And, Sean, you brought it up. He was aggressive, and it gave him extra 30 seconds, right? But I got to tell you, I've gotten a lot of feedback. Some of it, I saw three guys this morning for breakfast. One guy's like, love Vivek. Another guy said, couldn't stand Vivek. That he was cocky, that he was like a class cut up in a way,

that it kind of withered his gravitas. Now, I'll tell you, and I said this to you guys last night, I think it's all a win. Because what he needs right now is attention. Even bad attention serves his favor right now. But I do wonder if he needs to take lessons from last night and figure out a way to make it come across in a way. If he's trying to be Trump, that's a mistake.

Don't try to be Trump. Only Trump can be Trump. So it's got to be natural to him. But I wonder if he's got to kind of like tune the dials a little bit to not turn off as many people as it seemed to have turned off. So I thought he was having fun on stage and he's good at it. And I think there's a lot of smiling, a little bit of laughing. And that can sometimes come across as being juvenile. There has to be a little more seriousness.

coupled with the smiles and the laughter, but I don't know that he had the right balance on that front, but if you're going to air, you better air on the side of not scowling like Mike Pence looking constipated. It's better to actually smile and be engaging on the stage. But Vivek, on the debate, you know, he went after the gunslinger, Chris Christie, who called him out for, you know, basically saying, you're the Barack Obama, you're the guy who says,

I have a funny last name and I'm skinny, what am I doing on the stage? it was a great line. It was a killer line that would have destroyed Vivek Ramswamy from Chris Christi We all agree that was a great line

The chat GPT line was a great line Give me a hug But because he was able to respond Vivek quickly on Giving a hug to Barack Obama You know come here and give me a hug brother Was a great way to stave him off And push him back

Which means You know he's quick wit it Vivek is sharp And he showed that on the stage last night And also calling Chris Christie out for what was the line? He said, you know, you'd have more credibility when you talk about vitriol and animosity. If you weren't so vitriolic and had so much animosity towards Trump, I'm not using the right two words there. But really effective in going after the gunslinger of Chris Christie.

We'll be right back with more of the Will Kane podcast. Hey, I'm Trey Gowdy host of the Trey Gowdy podcast. I hope you will join me every Tuesday and Thursday as we navigate life together and hopefully find ourselves a little bit better. on the other side. Listen and follow now at Fox Newspodcast.com. Following Fox's initial donation to the Kerr County Flood Relief Fund, our generous viewers have answered the call to action across all Fox platforms and have helped raise $7 million.

Visit go.com forward slash TX flood relief to support relief and rebuilding efforts. Yeah, Will, I agree with your assessment. All attention for Vivek at this point is good, and those of us that had an opportunity to know him for a little bit of time have seen the potential. Like when I saw him announce, I said, this makes sense to me. This is a guy who he's wealthy. He's successful. He's articulate. He loves the country. And he's going to be running up against a lot of cardboard political cutouts from Washington, D.C., who will say the same thing and look like each other, and he will look and sound different, and he will stick out. And that is especially

so without Donald Trump on the stage. And he seized that moment. Like, when you think about it, I mean, 38 years old, no political experience to walk up on that stage and feel that comfortable. It is a reflection of sheer intelligence, emotional intelligence. He's done the work. He's been in the media. He's been answering the questions. And it showed. The question is, does he have multiple speeds? Because his speed is, you know, pegged at an 11 at all times, which some people love and other people are turned off by. And he's so smart that it can come off as arrogance. And he doesn't stop. Like even in our post show interview, it was like, Vivek, that was a great answer. And it could have ended a minute and a half ago. And, you know, one of these days, that's going to catch up.

You know what I mean? Like, it's going to catch up. You just kind of leave it be where it is and let people linger on the great stuff you said without having to add another sentence. And I think that could catch up with them. And it depends on what people view them as likable to your point. But I've had the same reaction. Some people said, awesome dude, crushed it. Other people like, man, shut up, because you were everywhere and all over the place and you looked arrogant, but I don't think he is. I think he is your first debate, the energy's pumping, you're ready to go, everybody's coming at you. He handled it really well, considering all the factors, and I do think it'll.

And he was the one guy who channeled Trump. And in the party of Trump, that's a good thing for him. So one of my producers sent me this note of feedback based on the debate. I thought it was really good. He said, it's as though everybody else on the stage. didn't learn from the shift in the Republican base through the Trump era. They sounded like they could have been running for president in 2012, where Vivek was echoing policies and points of view that reflect the modern-day Republican base.

And I do think that's true. You know, so let me transition that observation to this question, which I've asked you both, but I do find this fascinating. Why do you think they all attacked him? Christy and Pence is mainly Christy and Pence and Haley. Like all the attacks went to Vivek. They didn't go to Ron DeSantis, the frontrunner on that stage. Do you think it was a strategy?

Do you think it was just in the moment Pence just was irritated by Vivek and wanted to go get him? Like, why was he the place all the arrows was shot? Want me to take that? Go ahead. My assessment is that you had everyone looking for opportunities to engage. and getting a little scrap. Look at getting in a fight, right? And that's the only way you get more airtime.

And you can try to shut down the moderator and talk over the moderator as you're in this back and forth and you can look really strong. So I don't think it mattered who the fight was with, but Mike Pence wanted to get in a fight. Nikki Haley wanted to have a fight on Ukraine. And Vivek was the easiest target to fight with because he was saying some things that they disagreed with, whether it was on Ukraine, whether it was on Donald Trump. And whether, yeah, there's a number of spots in there where that happened. So I think that was the rationale behind it.

But can I tell just one of the point, as voters look at this, and I hate to go back to 2015, 2016, but when Hillary Clinton would always make the point, who do you want to answer the phone at 3 o'clock in the morning? I think she did ads about that, and I can't stand that. But you get the concept. Do you want Vivek Rom Swami at 38 years old to answer the phone? How is his God? Will he make the right calls? Does he have the life experience? Does he have the gravitas to lead on the world stage? And I don't, as again, I was a big fan of his performance last night. I love the debate style, but he does not have gravitas. And I think in the end, his age is going to crush him with voters as they try to analyze, if not Trump, could it be him? Where Ron DeSantis did have, I think, more gravitas in the night, though he wasn't as sparkly will.

I think there's a ceiling for Vivek, like you said, Sean. I don't. I think there will be a point where voters say, hey, man, really smart, huge future in front of you, probably not right now. But he's smart. He's doing what none of the other candidates are doing. He's drafting off of Trumpism of America First policy, and the rest of them seem to, you're right, whether it's 2012 or 1988 in the case of Mike Pence, they're running the way everyone ran before as if we're going to forget what happened over the last eight years. And I, so in, in part, when you look at the candidates, so you got Hutchinson, you got

Burgum, you got Christy, you got Nikki Haley, all of Pence, all of them have, if you're running in 2024, you have a beef with Trump at some level. Otherwise, he's the prohibitive frontrunner who is a previous president who wants to run again and you probably bow out. And so I feel like Vivek is that, is that trial running? avatar of how do you come at that without having to look like I'm attacking Trump, but I'm attacking on the margins some of the things he had to say. I think for Haley, it was intentional to draw the foreign policy contract.

She had her lines. He really didn't get a chance to refute that. But I think you're right also, Will, that for Pence and for, for, Christy was going to swing in anybody, but for Pence, it was, he was, turns out this is the guy that wants to scrap and I'm Ronald Reagan and he is, you know, whoever, and I'm going to. going to, I'm going to tell this kid what's up. And again, I think that is reflective of an old thinking that doesn't actually connect to a lot of the base. I mean, I just don't see how Pence a little more. It's like, it's like beating up somebody that makes you feel good. But a little more

on Vivek. Okay. Because again, I think he's the most fascinating character. So if I were a candidate, and I was surprised, I told you this guy, both of you guys, this pregame, I, you know, Sean, you bring up answering that call in the middle of the night, right? And then you're spot on on gravitas, I think, which is just something that you sense or you project. But also, I want to know who Vivek is in that moment at 3 o'clock in the morning. And I think there's some, I really like a lot about Vivek, but there are stuff out there about his support for masks, his support for Vax mandates. I can't believe people didn't challenge him on it. Like, because the thing is, I need to know who you authentically are, Vivek. And that's who you're going to be at that 3 a.m. call.

And I think, I'm just shocked that no one has gone that direction with him yet, which may reveal that it wasn't a strategy last night. It was actually just, it was just instinctual to go, to go fight him. And something you said, Pete, is interesting to me. You said, everyone else on that stage, okay, there's two guys on that stage that are not taking the anti-Trump approach, right? So everyone up there is essentially saying, I'm different than Trump in some profound way. There's two guys who are not saying that, and that's DeSantis and Vivek. They are both trying to be the Trump alternative that is Trumpish. right? And I do wonder, it puts both of them in a very difficult position because

what, there's Trump. Like, you're not going to get the Trump voter as long as there's Trump. So for Vivek and, like Christy and Pence and Haley, they're hoping America goes, I'm done with Trump, but I'm still Republican. But DeSantis and Ramoswamy are trying to get the Trump voter. And I don't know how they do that. And it's the, that's the impossible task the consultants are getting paid millions of dollars to fail at because it's like fighting an immovable object and Vivek is going all in and DeSantis is going halfway in and by the way, isn't it telling that DeSantis and Vivek are two and three in the polls as they're the only to attend, like the rest of them are truly channeling.

And so I think a lot of it, to get back to your question, which I didn't really answer, I don't think it was a strategy. I think it was frustration. I think it's Pence is ticked. I think Haley's ticked. They're like, I was the vice president. I was a governor. I was a congressman. I was a UN ambassador. I was a governor. I've been in the trenches and you whippersnapper have written a couple books and been on Fox News and now you think you're going to be president of the United States. Oh, hell no. I'm slapping you down. We've all been there. That's the frustration you can have in the moment. And so they didn't have the policy-based disagreements there or the background information to go at him. Wait till around. round two and round three and round four. I mean, this is where Vivek's going to have the Apple research coming at them, explain this, explain that, explain this. That was just surface level stuff. So we're going to see another speed of those attacks in future debates. Yeah, and you made this point last night, I think, it's like these, these, when you're playing

for second place, you're playing in the minor leagues, right? You're hoping that, you know, your right fielders going to, you know, break their leg and you're going to get called up, right? If something happens to Trump, they're playing for second, and should that opportunity be presented, they're going to be the alternative. And I do think that's where they're at. I mean, I don't think maybe Ron DeSantis believes that he can beat Trump. The donors and the consultants have told him that, and maybe he still believes it. I don't believe that's actually true, though. But to Pete's point as well, listen, less than a month ago, Vivek Ramoswamy was polling at 5%.

No one has done any research on Asa Hutchinson, whatever his name is, right? They're not going to waste their money because the guy's going nowhere. And Vivek Ramsomi was the same. Nothing on Vivek. Well, then he spiked. He's up at, what, 12% now and after this debate, he'll go even further. And after his performance last night, I guarantee you all the campaigns are going to go back and do research on all the different positions that he had. One of his great lines last night I thought was that climate change is a home.

And he went through all the energy, he included coal, beautiful coal that he wants to burn, because it's cheap. I loved it. Well, I also, I think Chris Christie's team put this out just a couple months ago. He had a line where he was like, climate change is real, and it's probably manate. Vivek. Vivek. Yeah, you can't have it both ways. And you can't change your positions that dramatically because the voters disagree with your old position on climate change.

So now you have a new one. There's actually recordings of what you said Vivek, and it's going to come back to haunt you. And if he has a couple moments like that, I don't care how good you are in a debate stage. The dude's going to go down because he'll be inauthentic. He'll be saying one thing on stage, but has had different positions in the past, like you mentioned, masks and vaccines. He'll have problems. Oh, yeah, talk about Mike Pence. You guys have both brought him up.

I think that I don't want to say it's universal, whatever social media is. I did see some people saying, oh, he came across as presidential. I thought he came across as dour and defensive. It looked to me, I'm curious what both of you think. Pete, you were in the room. It looked to me like it was a strategy, like it was purposeful. Like, he went in saying, I am going to be authoritative, and I'm going to assert myself because it wasn't just at the other.

It clearly was in the vague. We saw that over and over, right? But it was actually with Martha McCallum and Brett Bayer, too. Like, he tried, it seemed to me watching the show that the guy who was usually interrupting the two debate moderators was Pence. Like I had to hear Brett say several times, oh, Mr. Vice President, you have to wait.

Mr. Wright, you know, he came in with an attitude that seemed purposeful, and I don't think it worked for him. I can confirm that. I talked to Brett after the debate, and he said every time I looked over at Pence, his hand was up, and it was pointing at me, almost like you have to call on me. And I do think there was a part of, hey,

I was the vice president. of the United States here. I should be the center podium. I'm going to be the bulldog here because Trump's not here. That was definitely a strategy to exert and exude like a presidential leadership approach. And I do think there's just a lot of frustration there. I mean, you heard in the clips that we're playing in the lead up to the debate, you know, I've been preparing for this my whole life. Like, he really has. And he really has been a conservative for a really long time. He was a very faithful vice president for three and a half years, and then it ended the way that it ended. And you saw his political fortunes just crash.

And so I think him and his team have said, this is who he is, this is our strategy. And if we're going to go down, we're going to go down swinging. And the problem is he's just not a swinging kind of guy. So when he tries to do that, he's not really who he normally is. And so he asserted and he asserted. And it came off as smug. And I just didn't do himself any favor. And I got to believe his team knows that.

But you can't, you're not going to teach this old dog new tricks. You just lead into what he's got. So I was not impressed. I would agree with Pete on the assessment that he was, he thinks he's the vice president. He commands respect on the stage. He has been a conservative forever. He's a good Christian man. I like Mike Pence as a person.

I'd call him a friend of mine. I'd have a cup of coffee with him. I really enjoy him. But on stage last night, if you're preparing for this your whole life, yeah, I know you loved Ronald Reagan, all of us loved Reagan. But the era of Reagan is gone. The issues are different. And the tone in which we communicate is different. He used to do radio, right?

And so there's a cadence on radio that's a lot slower and deliberate and boring on the stage last night. And you got to smile. You do have to be a happy warrior as you're engaging. in the fight, because we understand we're in a fight. We're at a war with, I think, liberals and Democrats in the deep state. But you've got to put a smile on your face as you go into battle. Mike Pence didn't do that at all. And by the way, I was really annoyed in the debate, too, with all of the interruptions. And he kept talking over everybody. Nikki Haley did it one time with Vivek on Ukraine, but Pence did it nonstop. And a couple times, I think it's okay,

but it was over and over again. It became very annoying. One thing real quick, to your point about 80, Ronald Reagan was the first guy who introduced the idea at the State of the Union of pointing out a story in the balcony, right? And I think I'm at the point as a voter and maybe a political observer. I'm not saying I'm over that, but it's so overdone and overplayed that once a candidate gets that slow down, let me tell you a little thoughtful story. It's all canned. And I almost tune it out and say, okay, you've been planning for this story. And everyone, And I don't know. I don't know if that's how voters see it when they watch it, too. Maybe it's still effective. But from my side, Pence does that a lot. DeSantis did it a little bit last night. I just don't feel like it works.

You know who doesn't do it, who does a pretty good job in this environment is Chris Christie. I mean, he does seem like he is being authentic the whole time. Now, I used to say this when I did radio. Like, you know, the first hurdle you have to clear to connecting with an audience is whether or not you're authentic. But that doesn't ensure you success because it could be that, don't like who you authentically are you know like it's good to be authentic but you might authentically suck so uh the the thing with christie right now is i just don't think many people like who he is i don't i'm not like i don't hate christie i think he's i kind of like the

pugilist in him i like that he kind of goes back and can think on his feet like that but i also look at christie and i say well you're like the you're like the overweight fighting version of Mike Pence. And Mike Pence, like, their lane is the same. They're not the same guy. They're very different guys, but they're lane. That's what I guess I'm getting at. You're in the same lane, and I don't know why there's room for two of you. Yeah. I mean, I think that he's really good. I also think you underestimate the ego and belief that people have that they should be the president. Listen, if only people only knew how good of a blue state governor I was and what I did with my budget and what I did with Sandy and how I process. If people only knew and I and I and then you see him

on stage, you're like, he's really, really good. And he's, he is, he does come off as authentic. But he's not where the voters are. He's, he's decided to reject the main premise effectively of where the Republican base is right now. And as a result, he, he got booed from start to finish. Like when you're booed at the intro of a Republican debate, which he was, uh, and then you're acknowledging those booze and they're getting louder. And then Brett Bear has to turn around to the crowd and tell him to be quiet, stop booing Chris Christie so much. I mean, that's not a ticket to winning. But I do think, I think it's ego. I think these guys really think, man, if only I was president, this would all be fixed. And they should have, he should have run in 2008. Maybe it would have worked.

You know, Chris Christie at least was running on his record will, where Mike Pence was trying to run on Donald Trump's record and bashed Trump all the while doing it. And by the way, Mike Pence was going to lose in Indiana if he wasn't picked for vice president. He's he's been failing at a number of different points through his career. But here's the problem. And I saw this in Congress. When you represent a moderate area, a more Democrat area and you're a Republican, you can't be a Texas conservative will. I mean, you got great members in Texas that could never get elected in Maine or in upstate New York, right? If you won in, in New Jersey, you're a guy who's pretty damn moderate. You didn't throw the heat down because you can't. You wouldn't get anything done

and you wouldn't be elected. And so Christy has made a political fortune in New Jersey working with Democrats, moderating his message, you know, to get bipartisan, you know, buy in. But that doesn't work on the stage. That record is not appealing. Yeah, it was appealing that you wanted. a Democrat state, but what you did is not appealing because it's pretty moderate by Republican standards. And so I don't think he can sell much of what he's done. And again, he's a bully on stage. I don't, I like it. I think he is authentic. Even the line, the chat GBT line against Vivek, it was planned, right? He thought that through, but he delivered it really well, right? I mean, it didn't seem like it was canned. It was a great attack. So he's going nowhere. Again,

I don't know that the, you mentioned all the booze that came from the crowd. I don't know that the crowd accurately represents where all of the Republican voters are at. Again, I would point out Ukraine. I think they loved more money to Ukraine. I don't think that's where the Republican voter is at right now, from my personal perspective. But I do think the crowd represented where the Republican voter is in regard to Chris Christie, booing him as I think every Republican at home doing the same. We're going to step aside here for a moment.

Stay tuned. This is Jimmy Phala, inviting you to join me for Fox Across America, where we'll discuss every single one of the Democrats' dumb ideas. Just kidding. It's only a three-hour show. Listen live at noon Eastern or get the podcast at Fox Across America.com. All right. Let's talk about two people then. I don't have as much to say about either of these people, but I think it's fair to say that Doug Bergam and Asa Hutchinson really kind of honestly didn't register.

And I don't, I mean, I think, I think Doug Bergam has some appeal in some ways, but I just don't think that either of them registered much. So the other two people that I would discuss is Nikki Haley and Tim Scott. I put out last night, and I said to you guys that I thought Tim Scott got second. That was probably overrating it. And I guess I thought, the reason I was thinking that with Tim Scott is the main thing he pulls off is extreme likeability. And as all this is going on, I just kind of thought, I'm thinking of the, I'm trying to sit in the seat and see through the eyes of the average viewer. or Republican voter, which I do not think the three of us are average.

I think that... I try to do the same thing, but it's hard. It is. It is hard. And I think that the average voter sometimes, honestly, you know, they don't know everybody's single policy position. They don't know what Chris Christie did in New Jersey. They don't know a lot of these things. So you look up there and you go, well, that Tim Scott guy, he's dignified, he's nice,

he's likable, and I think that currency is pretty strong. Now, I don't think he had enough moments to show that. last night. I think he kind of faded into the background. But I don't think he was second. I was wrong in that respect. But I actually think he has some life to see this thing out because he can live on that currency for quite some time, Pete. Yeah, I think, you know, Tim Scott's problem is that he's a really nice guy. You know, and he's on a stage where you're supposed to hook and jab and take people down a peg. And he wants to be positive about who he is and tell his story. and what he believes in and what he stands on.

It's something he's been able to do in Congress and make a lot of friends on the Republican side and even some Democrats. And so sticking out is a challenge. I could tell you, in the green room after the debate, he came and did Hannity and then he was out. And he didn't look pleased. Now, maybe who knows what that means or what that's about,

but he wasn't somebody running around spinning the performance. Because it did just feel like he was also there like good guy nice guy also there and it didn't help him but let's say he's a prospective vice presidential pick it didn't hurt him there either and I think he remains on the top tier of someone that Donald Trump would pick he didn't take any shots of Trump he really hasn't throughout the whole campaign so his his premises look at me I'm a good alternative and I thought he basically did that but in a very nondescript way So, yeah, I agree.

He didn't shine. I had to ask, was Tim Scott at the debate last night? Because he just, he didn't get a lot of moments to engage. Now, he's going to be around for a while, Will, because he raised a lot of money early on. But he also had like $20 million from his Senate campaign that he brought over to the presidential. And he's been very good on how he spends his money. So he's not a flash in the pan. He'll be around.

He'll have a number of more opportunities to actually look at what he did wrong here and how he can engage more and get more FaceTime in future debates. But here's one of the problems that he has. One of the questions came, I don't know who asked it. Maybe it was Vivek, but what have you done to cut spending? And we're $32 trillion in debt. You guys are the problem. And I think Tim Scott's response was, well, I voted against these spending bills.

I'm sorry, that doesn't cut it with the voter right now. It's like you can't just vote against bills. What have you done proactively to go, hey, we're going to fix this. And this is how we're going to fix this. it. You never got that from Tim Scott just that he voted against it. Well, that's not the leadership that you need that's going to fix the big problems that we have in the country. He has to come up with different and better answers to address those as opposed to just I voted against it. It was a super DC answer. It felt like one. I remember that.

Hey, Pete, tell us what, that's pretty interesting perspective about the spin room afterwards. And I guess there's some, you know, who gets the attention in the spin room is some reflection of how you did in the debate. And I heard, by the way, I heard today, I haven't watched. but I heard that CNN and MSNBC, like, today, Vivek is their Trump. All they're talking about is Vivek and going after Vivek. In the room, Pete, in the – that's a great thing for Vivek, by the way. Yes, it is. In the room, who got the attention in the spin room?

Where did the cameras go? Where did the reporters flock to? Who had the scrum around them? Yeah, I mean, it was Vivek. It was. I mean, Desantis was in and out, and then he had a surrogate out. out there, but he did Hannity and he was out. Tim Scott did Hannity and was out. Nikki Haley did hand, blew past us, talked to Kilmead for a second and was out, but I don't think

it was a reflection of not feeling good about her performance. Bergam and Asa were just trying to get somebody to talk to him. Chris Christie didn't come into the spin room. So I think, you know, in that sense, Vivek had the clear, had the clear takeaway. I, to me, I think. the other person you've mentioned is Nikki Haley. And I, I, I, it'll be very interesting to see where her stock goes. Is there a big male, female difference? I mean, I was watching the same way you were, we were near the hall, but not in it. So I was watching the TV version. And, you know, when she made points, there was a, you could audibly tell there was a big female reaction.

And is that a big female reaction across the country? Or is that RNC people that know her better? because these are almost all R&C tickets, so that audience is not necessarily reflective of the base of the electorate. These are the hyper-involved people who maybe reflect more conventional thinking over time, even though much of the R&C has been remade in support of Trump. So I, and I just, I don't know, she just, she comes off as smug. I think she came off as smug. I think Pence came off as smug. But other people would say she came off as assertive and equipped with the knowledge and the information.

And maybe that's me as a guy talking. I'm just telling you how I saw it. And I don't know that she's going to, I don't know. I don't know how introduced she is to the Republican base. Maybe I'm a little not dialed in on that. Are people being introduced for the first time or do they already have to make an impression that she's not going to cut it? I don't know. We'll find out.

Before you jump in, Sean, I think the answer to that question is what you brought up earlier is Ukraine. And this is where I try to get into the eyes of the average voter and not so much into my own opinion. or the three of our opinions, which I know both of your opinions as well. I don't know, Sean, where the average Republican voter is right now on Ukraine. I actually, I really don't know. I know the people that will talk to me, you know, that I run into on the street or hit me up on social media or you guys that I talk to behind the scenes. But, again, the average person who says, hey, I'm tuning into this debate.

Politics are heating back up. I don't know where they are on Ukraine. and if they are hawkish and neoconish on Ukraine, she's going to be the person that they end up gravitating toward. Yeah, so I don't know that polling either. I imagine we'll probably get that at some point. I think the party is somewhat split. I would gravitate towards more our opposed to money in Ukraine than in favor,

but I don't know that for a fact. But I just, I, she was, she was talking over Vivek. and if you make a charge, if I go, you know, Pete, your hair's too long, I give him a second to actually respond to no, it's not too long. I don't just, he responds to me. He just doesn't, I don't talk over him, and she did that to be vacant. I thought it was incredibly disrespectful. And then she was pointing at him. I mean, I was reaching over and touching him if you watch the two shot of them.

So I didn't like it. And again, we're all men here, and I think there might be a different response from women. Can I make a black horse, dark horse prediction for you? Please. The two guys that had the least time was Hutchins and Bergam. Right. And I think we all agreed. We kind of like Bergam.

He's a small town guy, North Dakota governor, nice dude. He's, you know, we all kind of come from those places. And I found him to be really likable. And I didn't think that he had moments where he had great policy differences from anybody else, and he kind of had the wrote lines. He seemed like he was a bit nervous, that deer in a headlight moment, like I can't believe I made it to the stage. No one knows who I am.

But he could grow. He's a great businessman. He runs a conservative state, really likable. So if there's someone that I will watch moving forward, can he bounce out of this, figure his game out, and come back on the, I think it's 27th of September, and be more assertive, more aggressive with his ideas, a more independent thinker. So he's my dark, he's my dark horse. I'm going to watch from the stage last night.

Sean, I think, I think his support is going to increase by 100% from one to two percent. It's going to be huge. Yep. Well, said. He's going to double up his support. He was my pick, Sean. Ahead of the debates last night, Pete knows this. I had him on Fox and Friends last weekend.

And I said, I'm intrigued by this Bergam guy, you know? And I said last night there would be one surprise, and I thought it would be Bergam. But I also told Pete this past weekend, he's got to figure out, he's got to throw a haymaker, not just jabs. And I didn't see a haymaker last night. He's got to come out and really be like, I'm done Bergen. I'm here for America. Here's how. Hold on a second.

Oh, it's true. First of all, Pete is putting words in my mouth. I didn't say he was going to surge in the polls after last night's performance. going from one percent you said dark horse sleeper you know he's going somewhere I'm looking over the horizon

Pete I'm like can someone grow in the campaign can someone actually come back again and I'm only basing this on he was really likable he was a nice guy and again maybe I feel I feel soft for a guy who looks like it during the headlights on stage

and it's really nice about it it didn't fight with anybody he's kind of you know tried really hard you know your town is very proud of you you did it. How many people in his hometown? No Achilles tended. 300 people in his hometown.

I respect that. You know, it's just, it's, yeah. And he busted his Achilles. And he had a full on, torn, fully torn Achilles standing on stage for two hours. Like that's... Can I ask you as that question? I'm sorry, but this is your podcast, Will.

But Rachel and I had a debate about Vivek and taking the shirt off playing tennis. Yeah. And Rachel didn't mind it at all. She was like, yeah, no, I thought that's completely fine. I was horrified that he took his shirt off. And again, you guys who took your shirt off on TV and went swimming, I mean, you're on TV. You're talking to the wrong two guys.

I know, but you're not running for president. I thought for, you know, presidentially, that made him look immature. It made him look not serious. What did you guys think? Did you mind the show of those tennis play? All I thought off that was, wow, he is hammering his forehand. I wonder if those are going in. because he was hammering it i mean he he couldn't have put any more into that swing they were probably

flying way out of bounds on the other side way way out um and and uh my second thing was it was just a little bit of a forced viral moment i thought it didn't feel i don't care about the shirt on or off um it just only to the extent that was he trying to have his own rfk moment and and and therefore it wasn't real it wasn't authentic yeah yeah absolutely no doubt press the advantage at the rest of the stage and say none of these guys can take their shirts off. So I'm going to do it. And I'm young and lean into that advantage. I kind of wondered in the moment, though, so Doug Bergam heard himself playing basketball? Like, was he playing shirtless basketball and just happened to pull his Achilles and so he didn't get his viral

moment? If he did that, he should have posted that moment. He blew his Achilles and his popularity would have soared. That's the kind of thing you have to own. I was trying to have my RFK moment tore my Achilles. But it also makes me think of Saturday Night Live. One of the greatest moments was when Chris Farley took his shirt off with Patrick Swayze and was dancing. Now, if Chris Christie took his shirt off,

that would be a viral moment playing tennis. Oh, it would be. I don't know. Yeah, it would be a viral moment. Would it be a net positive or not? You might go from 1% to 2% as well. There you go. Okay, so here's what I like about Sean's 1% to 2%. We'll pretend like they're stocks.

You make money on that, though. You double it up. You're making money on Doug Bergum right now. So who made money last night? I'm using that metaphorically, of course. Whose stock goes up and whose stock goes down? Like, whose poll numbers as we watch for the next couple of days from this debate will go up and who will go down in your estimation? I mean, by the way, earlier you said Vivek's numbers will go up.

You still feel pretty confident that will be the case? Either of you. I think Trump's numbers stay where they are. He was the big winner because no one shined. I think, if I'm guessing, I think DeSantis probably come down a little bit, but he stays number two. Vivek goes up, and I think Haley gets a bump. And I think right now you're probably looking at a tier of those four people at or near the top. And I think Nikki Haley will benefit a lot from females who appreciate a strong female voice out there.

So that's how I'd look at shaking out right now. I would agree with Pete. And just, I mean, some of these candidates are so far down in the polling, one, two, three percent. I mean, they're in the margin of air from nothing to three percent, right? I mean, the margin of air is, it's not really accurate. You can get a poll that takes Nikki Haley from three percent to five percent, and, you know, it could just be the margins. So, yeah, but Vivek, you know, I thought, again, won the night. And again, he was, he channeled Trump.

I think Pete made a really good point. The guys that are channeling Trump in the election and on the debate stage, Desantis and Vivek, they're the ones who were shining because that's where the party's at. And it's moved, a lot with Donald Trump. I mean, there was a, yeah, I just, I, Trump is authentic in how he speaks and the ideas that he has. He has a great gut. These guys were channeling that, but I would have liked to have seen their own, their own spin on the Trumpism, and that really didn't come through. And again, that's why Trump won the night. Can I ask you guys another question, too?

Did Donald Trump pick the day after the debate to turn himself in? Was that his choice? Because if he did, it's brilliant to flip the conversation of the debate that he wasn't at to him getting prosecuted again by Democrats. Well, you're the firm. I don't know the answer to that. He did choose it. He had until Friday to turn himself in. So he could have done it any time this week.

Oh, really? And the minute I saw him choose third. Yes, he was up and until end of day Friday. turn himself in. And the minute I heard him announced Thursday, I said, of course, he wants to dominate the day after the debate with coverage of his arrest. And that's how he rolls. Smart. Yeah. Yeah. Sean Duffy, Pete Hegseth. Awesome breakdown. Awesome hanging out with you guys. Thank you so much. Likewise. Thanks, well. Later, Pete. There you go. I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Pete and Sean. Again, check him out.

Check out Sean at the Kitchen Table podcast or the bottom line on Fox Business. Check out Pete on Fox and Friends on the weekend. I'll see you again next time. Listen to ad free with a Fox News podcast plus subscription on Apple Podcast. And Amazon Prime members, you can listen to this show, ad free on the Amazon Music app. It is time to take the quiz. It's five questions in less than five minutes.

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