Wiretap - Bad Thoughts

Episode Date: September 28, 2020

An ex-cult-member tells the story of how he escaped mind-control and regained his freedom of thought, plus Gregor explains four easy steps for coping with negative thoughts.

My group chat thinks I'm the smart one, but I have a cheat code. I take 10 minutes each morning and listen to World Report. Knowing what's happening in the world helps me feel connected and make better informed decisions. But endless doom scrolling is not my idea of fun. So I just listen to World Report on my commute, get informed, and get on with my day. World Report, the day's top stories in 10 minutes, wherever you get your podcasts. is a CBC podcast. I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and you're listening to Wiretap on CBC Radio 1, today's

episode, Bad Thoughts. And just a heads up, this first story makes reference, though never explicitly, to some body subject matter, all in good fun, of course, but still may not be appropriate for sensitive or younger listeners. So a couple weeks ago, I was talking to my friend Scott. when he began to tell me about a new obsession of his, a 10-foot-tall statue of Mormonism founder, Joseph Smith, or, more specifically, its groin area.

Because it's 10 feet tall when you walk up to it, your head is right about a crotch level. Uh-huh. And he's wearing very tight pants, and his crotch is like bulging. It's like a dolphin surfacing almost. Like a dolphin? Well, it's like a noticeable bulge. Okay.

And I just wonder why they did it. Like, why did they make the statue like that? Yeah. You walk right up and that's all you see. I mean, the temptation is, like, there's a temptation to reach out and, like, punch it. Because, you know, it's like, uh... Just like to have...

I don't know what it's like. It's troubling. It's troubling that I just keep thinking about it. The statue sits in the center of Salt Lake City, where Scott lives, and whenever he'd see it, he'd wonder, is there some mysterious iconography at play here, or is it all in my imagining? Simply put, Scott wondered if there was something abnormal about the statue or whether there was something abnormal about him.

A few days after we spoke, I received an email from Scott, saying he was still thinking about the statue. statue more than he felt was normal I thought he wrote that I was doing okay that things were looking up but then I remember the statue I understand how once you get a bad or even just a dumb thought in your head it could become corrosive the more guilt you feel for thinking it the more the thought spirals and then the next thing you know you're walking around feeling guilty all the time You become one of those slumped over guys who stare at the sidewalk all day, unable to meet the gaze of fellow citizens.

In Scott's case, his Mormon neighbors. Since I was going to be in Salt Lake City for a radio story, and since I'd also taken a few art history classes in college, I offered to go visit the statue with Scott to give my take and hopefully bring him some peace of mind. Just move. Move your car. What are you doing? And so there I was. Two weeks later, stuck in Salt Lake City downtown traffic with my friend and fellow reporter, Sean Cole. We are entering the maw of Mormonism. Is that offensive? Well, no. I mean, I have a maw. Everybody has a maw. Mormons have maws. And Mormonism has a maw. And you sleep with your maw.

Oh, my God! What, you're going to deny it? I'm raising that. I slept next to my mother, and we were in Africa. Indeed, it was Africa. It was actually a wholesome mother and son Safari with very cramped sleeping arrangements. But because it gets such a rise out of Sean,

I do my best to bring it up every chance I get. All right, we're on our way to Scotts. What are you eating? Prockers. Did you learn in radio journalism school not to talk with your mouth full into a microphone? You. The statue is in an atrium in the Joseph Smith Memorial Building. We met Scott on the street corner nearby.

Hey, man. Hi. I hadn't seen Scott in years. He still looked like a lean and tall cowboy, grizzled, handsome. We said our hellos, and then we went over our mission. Well, I want to, this statue that I've been telling you about, I'm glad you guys are here because I can show it to you, and then it won't be, you will believe me in what I say,

that it's a rather suggestive and alluring the way the statue is formed. So you feel like if we agree with you somehow, it'll validate your feelings or you won't feel so abnormal. Abnormal, yeah. But I don't know if they're going to let you record in here. So we entered the building and Scott led the way over to the statue. Beautiful. Oh, here's the statue. It was on a pedestal overlooking the atrium. And beside it, a man at a great...

ran piano played show tunes. So it's about how tall? Well, I'm comparing it to a basketball hoop. And that's probably about the top of his hair. It's probably about basketball hoop, I think. Maybe a little taller. She's wearing an 1800s tight waistcoat with long tails. And his pants are kind of tight, or especially

around the groin area. So he's got a book, and I guess he's... That book is the Book of Mormon. It'd be weird if it wasn't, if it was like the catcher in the eye or something. From this angle, you can't really see the bulge. The shadow doesn't look. I don't know, what do you think? I didn't know what to say.

I wanted to help, but I just didn't know if I was seeing it. I don't see much of a bulge. Really? But maybe it's just the lighting of the time of day or something. I walked around it, looking at it this way and that. I really did want to see what Scott saw to support my friend, but I just wasn't sure. It was while performing my inspection

and feeling kind of sacrilegious about it that I noticed someone making a beeline towards us with what I can only describe as determination. It was a volunteer, a Mormon woman in her mid-80, woman in her mid-80s. She was wearing a name tag that read, Sister Margaret Nelson. She started giving us the history of the statue.

Statue was made over in Italy out of one piece of very rare marble carterar. As she spoke, Scott and I kept stealing glances at the problem area of the statue. And you can touch it and feel it. When Sister Margaret was done, she asked if we had any questions. I was nervous about what Scott might ask her, so I jumped in with the first thing that popped into my head.

Are you going to go see the Book of Mormon when it comes here? Oh, you mean to play? Yeah. Well, no, for the simple reason, I can't afford to. But I understand it's a hoot. You don't think it's insulting to the church? No. No.

I'm laughing at Mormons during some of it. But you know, let me tell you, when that opened up on Broadway, there were more Book of Mormons handed out to people at that period of time than any other time in New York because it roused a curiosity about the Book of Mormon and that and the Mormon Church. And so they had nothing against it. You know, we can laugh at ourselves. I think everybody should be able to laugh at themselves.

then she asked if we had any more questions I can answer for you but I don't know if I can ask you it might be completely inappropriate well if you have any questions let me see if I can answer them but what if it's what if all right it's just okay I'm going to ask this question if you're offended please tell me all right or maybe if it's completely inappropriate okay is that all right all right so in his pants, in his crotch there, Joseph Smith, you know, it's rather large. Do you notice that, that they've displayed as... I've never noticed it.

Oh, you never noticed? No, I have not. I don't know that the trousers they wore back in those days were disgusting, some of them. I was watching a movie on TV the other day, and they were wearing tights almost like the women are wearing today. and some of them were very a little bit too much but that's what they dressed in the style then that was the style then and and so no believe it or not I guess I've never noticed so but now that you have noticed I'll still look up at that beautiful face you keep your eyes trained on the face eyes up here eyes up here eyes up there you bet all right it's like you just

someone walking down the street. Do you look at a girl's beautiful face or do you look at a girl's beautiful back end? Okay. That's a question. Well, that's very nice. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you for talking to us. Well, you're welcome. I just love to talk about the church because I love it. So I think that kind of like, that was justifying that even a, Even that Sister Nelson kind of thought that the pants that they wore back then were pretty provocative. Too tight. What did she call it?

What was the word she used? Disgusting. Disgusting, right, right, right. So it's not your fault to have disgusting thoughts with those disgusting pants. All right. I know. So now I feel better. So Scott was feeling better.

I mean, if an 80-something-year-old Mormon woman thinks something's up, you should feel pretty absolved. All right. So with that, Sean and I, with a sense of accomplishment, got back into the car and headed off to the airport. Hey, look what's on the side of the train. Zebras. And where did you see zebras? Africa. And where did you sleep with your mother?

Oh my God! It never gets old. You are the worst person. A nice memory of Africa. So we finally found a podcast that speaks to you, pure bliss. It's so good that when you finish the final episode, it leaves a hole in your heart and your schedule. What now? Personally, is here for you.

It's a collection of true stories that explore what it means to be, well, human. The best part, there are a sense. six incredible seasons to dive into, with more on the way. Personally, get lost in someone else's life. Available now, wherever you personally get your podcasts. Johnny, my friend. Hey, Gregor. I think thoughts can manifest themselves as realities.

Oh, yeah. And I think you've made your life. It's like meditating on failure. And I think you've dug a hole for yourself. And that hole is called your life. You know, that's... You think about things over and over ruminating like a cow ruminates, chewing things through five stomachs. Overcoming these repetitive scary thoughts takes patience.

It takes persistence. And I have both of those things. Where you walk is like footprints in the snow in your brain. You're making these neural grooves in your brain that are very familiar and you wear them into your brain. And pretty soon, it's very hard to get out of those grooves because you're like, I'm a donkey. I smell like garlic going over and over and over down the same path. So what are you saying? I should do some kind of positive visualization. Is that it? Yes. Positive visualization. Revisualization.

Okay. You don't think it's too late. I mean, obviously it's much too late for you, but it's never too late. Let me just give you these four tools, right? You got a pencil? Do I have a pencil? Why is that a ridiculous question? It's very straightforward. Who uses pencils anymore? What am I? Like a bookie? It's a straightforward question. It's a yes or no answer. It's what's called binary in computer world.

I have a pen, yes, okay. All right. Very hostile. We're going to work with you. You know, you set a certain tone. Step one. Yes. Three visualizations.

Okay. Give me one of your bad thoughts. You're drowning in a bowl of soup, okay? Well, who thinks about that? I think about that. You're drowning in a bowl of soup. You think about me drowning in a bowl of... Please don't get stuck on the one's thought.

It's just one among many, many thoughts. Okay. You're going to replace them. Can I at least suggest to you my bad thought rather than having you thrust a bad thought? on to me. Sure, okay. Give me one of your bad thoughts. It's probably playing on endless loop in your head. Like a Jimmy Buffett song in Florida. You know, sometimes I worry when I'm walking down the street that I'm going to trip and fall. Maybe I think about that more than most.

That's not a bad thought. That's a perfectly reasonable thought. How is that a reasonable thought, with every step to be thinking about falling? Come on, as your mother likes to say, you were never very coordinated. You're getting older. You're validating my negative thoughts. You probably have, like, positional hypertension coming on from all a salty food you eat, so you stand up and you get dizzy. You should walk slowly. I'll use a walker.

I'm in my 40s, but I should use a walker. We could make it cool. We could decorate it with stickers, irreverent stickers. I think I get the idea. Let's move on to number two. Okay. You need to use positive self-talk. This one I think is going to be hard for you because you're so unbelievably negative all the time,

like a lead blanket filled with lead shot dropped from a lead blimp on top of a pile of lead. What are you suggesting? What do I say? It's a little sad that you don't even know how to say something positive, but I'll show you how it's done, and then you do it, okay? Mm-hmm. Oh, look at me. the sun shines where I stand.

The sun shines where I stand. I light up the room. Okay, now you try. I don't know. I mean, I'm looking forward to having this sandwich that I like after work. Okay. Okay, what kind of sandwich you're picturing? Just curious.

I don't know. I was thinking about turkey. Do you understand that when you do positive self-talk, I'm not saying what's the watered-up piece of paper in your pocket that says you need to pick up some stuff on the way home, like some cat food. Okay. Self talk is like this. I'm going to be like Kanye West times a million.

That's positive self-talk. Okay. I am the greatest radio broadcaster of my generation. Okay. You're on the right track, but obviously we've gone way too far. What do you why? Jenny, the point of this exercise is not to just say lies. But you're the one who said.

Johnny, the greatest radio broadcaster, you're not fit to carry Garrison Killers rhubarb pie. B, B, Bop, a rhubop, rhubop, you know that song he does? Okay, let's move on to three. Okay, this one is a fun one. You shrink down your chatter box. You see what I'm saying? What does that mean?

It's a metaphorical box, not an actual box. Although Lord knows you probably have an actual box inside you, too. Like a box of raisins, you didn't realize you had to open and you just ate the whole box. Okay, please, can we move on? Inside your head, you've got this chattering little chatter box, right? Uh-huh. You're going to shrink that chatter box down. Okay.

You're going to fade your thoughts down. All right, that's kind of a nice one. All right. Now, okay, and what's the final one? Getting your impure thoughts out. Picture your head is like a balloon, where someone who had a lot of garlic blew it up. Now, inside that balloon, it's full of bees. Those bees are your impure thoughts. Okay.

Now, what your objective here is in this fourth and final exercise is to get the bees out of your balloon. Okay. So let's start. Give me one. Don't be ashamed. No judgment zone. Tell me one of your impure thoughts. To name it is to claim it. You're going to say it, and we're going to let it go. We're going to let it fly away. Sometimes when I'm waiting in line at the grocery store, you know, they have those racks of chocolate bars. Sometimes I just feel like reaching out and grabbing them and squishing them and no one's looking.

What are you out of your mind? Why would you squish chocolate bars? It doesn't even make any sense. I didn't say that I do. I said that I think about it. Okay. I'm just going to say a better impure thought would have been if you think of stealing them or maybe eating them and not paying or something like that. Wait, there's a hierarchy.

You're telling me what the better impure thoughts are. Your impure thoughts stink. You're going to squish chocolate boys. How is this a judgment-free zone, if you're judging me for my bad thoughts? Can't help it. I grew up in Flushing, Queens, New York, the youngest of three kids. middle-class conservative Jewish upbringing. I was a creative writing major in college, writing poetry, and short stories.

I had a sign on my bedroom door question authority, and I was basically dumped by my girlfriends when I was an upper junior at Queens College. And I was sitting in the cafeteria of the spring semester, and three women came flirting with me pretending to be students. It turned out that they were not students, but they were recruiters for the moon cults.

I was not looking for a new belief system or to change religions or to drop out of college or to cut off my family or friends. But I thought I might get lucky and have one of them out for a date.

And over a period of two weeks, I came to believe that Armageddon was happening, that the Messiah was on Earth, and that God had a plan for me. They succeeded in planting this question in my head. What if it's true? What if God has sent the Messiah to save the planet and I miss it? missed the opportunity say no

and regret it for eternity and at that point it became I need to do the right thing which is surrender to God to some young moon and his wife

to take over the world I mean I was sleeping three to four hours a night working seven days a week because I believed it 100% and I would do whatever I was told to do which included dying on command, killing on command, recruiting new people.

I was literally unable to think a negative thought about the leadership, the doctrine, or the group. And I was taught to do a thought-stopping, a behavior modification technique of chanting or praying or singing whenever I had a doubt, enter my conscious mind to suppress it. And as my parents, my friends said, Steve, what are you doing? This guy's not the Messiah. He's an anti-Semite. He's a fascist. They're in a cult. You're being brainwashed.

It was just confirmation that Satan was working through my family and friends. I fell asleep at the wheel of a fundraising van in Baltimore, Maryland, and woke up as I was driving 80 miles an hour into the back of a tractor-trailer truck and crashed. And I was in the hospital with a surgery on my ankle. And it was during that period where I was away from the group, sleeping, eating, and just recovering, that I reached out to my sister, Thea, and I arranged a visit. and I made her promise not to tell my parents and fortunately my sister broke her promise and did tell my parents and I was deprogrammed. It started involuntarily and I almost snapped my father's neck. It was very dramatic and in that moment where my father was trying to bring me to another location for the deprogramming. He just broke down in tears and I I had never seen my father break down in tears.

And he just said, what would you do if it was your only son who met a group of people and dropped out of college, quit his job, donated his bank account? How would you feel, Steve? And he's crying. And it just hit me so deep. It was so obvious that he loved me and he was sincerely worried about me. I said, what do you want me to do? He said, I just want you to voluntarily listen to what these ex-members have to say and think about it.

And if you want to go back, I'll drive you myself, but at least your mother and I could sleep at night knowing we did the responsible thing. And I couldn't say no. And over a period of five days, the ex-members were teaching me about eight hours. criteria that any environment may be judged as the brainwashing environment. And it was obvious that the family, the cult, did all of those. So then I was left with the fundamental contradiction of, hmm, so Satan does brainwashing, but the family does brainwashing too. And that did not compute.

Part of the teaching was that God didn't make Adam an evil obedience. He gave them free will. In fact, they disobeyed. So if God didn't brainwash Adam and Eve to be obedience, how could any group in God's name do it now? And it was like my critical thinking started operating, and it felt like this house of cards going, and I started crying.

And I cried for, I think, about three hours. The emotional feeling of having dedicated your life to believing in a group and a person and then finding out it was a lie is overwhelmingly just horrifying. and embarrassing. And it was amplified for me because I had been involved with recruiting hundreds of other people. In November 18th, 1978 was the Jonestown tragedy with 276 children being cyanized-laced Kool-Aid. And I'd never heard of that group, but just seeing those bodies lying face down, the jungle floor, I just thought that could have been me.

That could have been me doling out the Kool-Aid. That could have been me with a gun shooting people if they didn't want to drink the Kool-Aid. For the first few months when I exited, I missed that feeling of... the fantasy that we had the answer, that we were the elite, and this fantasy movie in my head of a world of harmony and love and peace, where everyone was fed and everyone was treating each other with love and kindness. And for the first few months as I was trying to recover and reclaim my brain, I missed it, and I missed the sense of camaraderie of feeling like every act mattered.

But never did I want to go back. The human spirit wants to be free. On Wiretap today, you heard Sean Cole, Gregor Ehrlich, and Scott Carrier, whose excellent new podcast, Home of the Brave, can be found in iTunes. At the end of the show, you heard Stephen Hassan, who, after leaving the Unification Church, spent the next 38 years dedicating himself to helping free people from mind control cults. His book, Combating Cult Mind Control, has just been released with an updated 25th anniversary edition. Wiretap is produced by Mirabirdwin-Tonic, Crystal Duhame, and me, Jonathan Goldstein.