Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus - Julia Gets Wise with Amy Tan

Episode Date: May 23, 2023

On this episode of Wiser Than Me, Julia sits down with 71-year-old author Amy Tan. Amy tells Julia how she’s learned to deal with the expectations following her successful debut novel The Joy Luck Club, the power of an apology, and the practical ways she’s preparing for getting older. And Julia and her mom Judith recall the disastrous first time Judith met Julia’s future husband Brad.   Follow Julia on Instagram and Twitter @officialjld. Keep up with Amy Tan @AmyTan on Twitter and @amytanwriter on Instagram. You can find out more about our show @lemonadamedia on all social platforms.   Joining Lemonada Premium is a great way to support our show and get bonus content. Subscribe today at bit.ly/lemonadapremium.    Wiser Than Me is brought to you by Hairstory. Use code WISER at checkout for 20% off your purchase, and Hairstory will donate 10% of proceeds from this code to water preservation efforts.     Wiser Than Me is brought to you by Evereve. Check out Evereve’s latest curated styles and get 20% off your first online order when you use code WISER.    Apple Books has teamed up with Lemonada Media for an audiobook club. The May pick, Monsters: A Fan's Dilemma by Claire Dederer, is a highly topical and blisteringly smart examination of whether we can separate artists from their art, asking: what are the responsibilities that come with being a fan? For more details, visit http://apple.co/lemonadabookclub.    Sleep better at night with Boll and Branch sheets. Get 15% off your first order when you use promo code WISER at bollandbranch.com   Click this link for a list of all Wiser Than Me sponsors and discount codes: https://lemonadamedia.com/sponsors/.    For additional resources, information, and a transcript of the episode, visit lemonadamedia.com.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonada This episode contains themes of suicide. If you or someone you know is considering suicide, please call or text 988 to reach the suicide and crisis lifeline. My mom and dad separated when I was about a year old. Shortly after that, my mother's father died by suicide. So it was not an easy time for my mother who was such a new mother. She and I were living in New York and it was just the two of us.

Although I know it was difficult for my mom and even though I was just a little baby, I think our connection was a bit of a lifesaver for her at this difficult time. And of course, she was my whole world. We were a duo. Sometimes my grandma, Dede was a part of the scene. She helped my mother to take care of me.

Though in a way, Dede needed taking care of too, but that's a story for another time. My grandmother, whose real name was Grace, was one of five sisters, including Mourna, Francis, Dorothy, and Little Joe. I know it sounds like I'm confusing my family with little women or something, but those are their actual names. The mother of these five girls was my great-grandmother, Bessie. That is a big load of fabulous old-timey lady names, right? Bessie, Dorothy Murna, Frances, Grace, and Little Joe. I mean,

Jesus, it's fucking grapes of wrath over there. And from all accounts, Bessie wasn't the greatest mother. So Murna, the eldest daughter, kind of took over in that regard. And in my mind, it's always been this kind of village of women scraping it together in the 1920s, with Murna as a surrogate mother. So, I've been thinking about the mother daughter bond, in its many, many guises. Birth mother, adopted mother, foster mother, surrogate mother, because you have to be stepmother, I have a stepmother whom I completely adore, by the way. It is a unique and fascinating bond, even when it isn't working particularly well. And it's somehow different from the mother's son bond, the one that I have with my two beautiful sons.

It's not better at all, but it is distinctly different. Perhaps, perhaps, because built into the mother-daughter connection is that shared female experience. My mom somehow, against the odds by the time she became a mother already had certain instincts that proved to be correct, nurturing, and well, just nurturing and correct. And hey, if you've been listening to this podcast thing here, you know my mom a little. She has persevered and overcome a lot to become the person that she is. And I think I've talked about it on this show, but she's a poet. And later in life, she's become like a real poet with books published and everything.

And a lot of her poetry springs from her family experience. Everybody's family experience is unique, of course, but my mom's has been filled with all of these women. My mother had three daughters, including me, and all three of us are mothers ourselves now, and my sister Phoebe on my dad's side is a mom as well. So there's just like a shit ton of moms and daughters around here. Anyway, my mom really knows her stuff when it comes to being a mother and when it comes to poetry, and she sent all of us her daughters, that is this poem. It's by Maggie Smith, the poet, by the way, not the actress, is called First Fall.

And I think it speaks beautifully to the connection between a mother and a child. It goes like this. First fall. I'm your guide here in the evening dark morning streets, I point and name. Look, the Sycamores, they're modeled paint by number bark. Look, the leaves, resting and crisping at the edges. I walk through Schiller Park with you on my chest. Stars smolder well into daylight.

Look, the pond, the ducks, the dogs paddling after their prized sticks. Fall is when the only things you know because I've named them begin to end. Soon I'll have another season to offer you, frost, soft on the window, and a porthole side there, ice-sleeving the bear-gray branches. The first time you see something die, you won't know it might come back.

I'm desperate for you to love the world because I brought you here. I get goosebumps from that poem. Isn't that a good poem? I think it's spectacular. To put into words the beginning of the journey of being a parent and the connection between parent and child, Lordy, that is a subject that is just giant to me and just endlessly fascinating. How fabulous then that I get to connect today

with someone who explores these relationships so profoundly in her own writing. So yeah, today I'm talking to Amy Tan. I'm Julia Louis-Dreyfus, and this is Wiser than me, a podcast where I get schooled by women who are Wiser than me. One of the great discoveries for me doing these podcast conversations with seasoned, fascinating women is that there are patterns, life patterns, life experiences that many, if not all, of these women women share. One thing that they share is boundless energy, extraordinary amount of energy. Another thing they share is generosity. They're

all out there doing good all over the world and they've all shown extraordinary personal resilience, overcoming huge obstacles and challenges in their youth. So today I'm going gonna be talking to a woman who checks all of these boxes and then some. In addition to being the author of powerful stories depicting identity, family, and the immigrant experience, I mean, she wrote the Joy Luck CUB for Christ's sake.

Amy Tan is the founder of the Amy Tan Foundation, which provides resources for literacy and educational programs, environmental, conservation, and social justice initiatives in underserved communities. She is the recipient of the Presidential Medal of Humanities. Woohoo! And a winner of the Commonwealth Award. She's done everything from writing screenplays and opera, librettos to visual art. You should see the birds that she draws with colored pencils. And her latest adventure will be the much awaited, and I am so awaiting it, 2024 book, The Backyard Bird Chronicles. So yeah, everybody knows that Amy Tann is a rock star,

but did you know that she is an actual rock star? Yeah, she's the lead singer of a rock band that is performed with Bruce Springsteen and Stephen King and had groupies and a crazy mass cool tour bus. She says vibrant and fearless and dedicated to her craft as ever and she just won't slow down except maybe to have a chat with us. I'm so happy to welcome a woman who is so much wiser than me, Amy Tan. Hi, Amy. Hi. Wow. What an introduction.

Yeah, how about it, but it's all true. Okay, first of all, for the people who are listening, I have to explain that Amy and I met in Washington, D.C. because we were both blessed to have received the, Amy received the National Medal of Humanities and I received the National Medal of Arts and these are medals that are given out by the National Endowment for the Arts and President Biden. And we sat together the night before the actual event at the White House, they gave a dinner for the medal recipients and it was really lovely.

And Amy was my seat mate. And her wonderful husband, Lou too. And I have to be honest with you, it was also overwhelming. I don't know what your experience was with this. I can't remember any of the details of those 48 hours in DC. The dinner that night, I was so excited to be talking to you. I can barely remember what we talked about,

except birds, of course. We talked about birds and you're drawing, right? Yes, right. Yeah. It was the same. I think it was the same. It was just overwhelming trying to process why I was there for one thing.

Yeah, me too. And then who else was there and what good things they did? And maybe I didn't do things that really just, we're deserving of the metal. But that's the kind of thing that I always goes through my head. Do I deserve all these wonderful things that come to me? Well, I think you do.

I think it's long overdue. You should have a number of these metals. And then I looked on your Instagram, Amy, and I saw that there was a picture of you getting the metal from Biden. And you said, I thought I was being so cool and calm. And you're like your head is back. And your mouth is wide open.

My teeth are exposed. I look like I'm either drunk or having a dance moment about to dance with him. Yes. Totally. And I had to say, first of all, it's a charming photograph. I love it. But I had the same experience because I have to tell when I went up there to get it, I was so overwhelmed and he put the metal around my neck. And I thought I would do a joke that the metal was too heavy and I sort of did this thing like I was collapsing and of course all the people took pictures of that moment so it's so bizarre making a face and

hamming it up and I had and then I happened also quickly and then afterwards I forgot to stand there and take a picture with him because I was so overwhelmed. I was like, I gotta get back to my seat. It was all so crazy. Wasn't it? It was. I was glad I was not wearing high heels. That I think the combination of the excitement and getting up there would have been too much for me to remember where my feet were, where the heels were going up those steps. I was wearing high heels and I was very nervous. That was, it was truly an unforgettable experience. Anyway, I was delighted. Hey, listen, are you comfortable if I say your real age? Oh, absolutely. I've been giving my real age since before I was this real age.

I'm actually now 71. But I started saying I was 70 when I was 69. I just get used to it? No, no, I kind of forgot. It was like, what age am I 70? And then I, oh, no, no, no, I'm going to be 70 next year. So that's how much it doesn't really bother me what my age is. I like to say what my age is. Yeah. You know, what's bad though, if you say your age, and I have this Chinese Chinese gene, so you know, you tend to have that or cheeks and so you don't show the wrinkles

as much. And I'm waiting for the day I say,'m 71 and somebody does nobody says, oh, you don't look your age. And then then how will I feel about that? Or you certainly don't look your age. I'd love to say fat cheeks. You have this incredible bone structure and gorgeous skin. And I wouldn't I wouldn't say it's fat cheeks. How will you feel, like inside? How will you feel? You know, I think it really depends on the context. There are times that I feel like I'm five still,

or maybe I'm nine, or I'm 21, or I'm 24, or it goes back to different periods in my life that I think are significant. But I definitely feel my age in a mental way. Emotionally, I think it bounces around in different ways. Oh good, you know, not terrible ages. Got it. So, since you wrote the Joy lot club

and here you are, you're about to have your, I don't know which number book is coming out in 2024. I honestly cannot wait for this book and I have to ask you about it. The backyard bird chronicles. This may be an unfair and sort of ridiculous question, but can you talk about how your writing has evolved since those early days? Yeah. You know, this may sound ironic, but the more I write, the more difficult it is.

In the beginning, in the beginning, and the key difference is that when I started writing the Joy-La Club, I was unknown, completely unknown. I'd never been published, not even a short story or anything, or one short story in a very tiny circulation magazine. And after Joy Luck Club, suddenly it just felt like everybody was watching. And there were the reviews, the good and bad reviews and people saying all the time, it can't wait for the next one. And suddenly it wasn't a private undertaking.

Yeah, it was no longer private. And I had all these expectations weighing on me. And it's taken a long time to undo those expectations. And I try to get back into that place where nobody is watching over my shoulder. So that makes it difficult. The other is that, you know, you want to grow just like anybody else. And there's this feeling that maybe I'm not growing as much as I should. And maybe my, my freshness that I had when I was first writing is no longer there because I, I have assumptions now. I've learned too much and I've used that as a fixed way of seeing things. And so I have to break out of that as well. Because fiction, writing what I do in

fiction requires me to discover things. For me to find out what this is about at the same moment in essence that you would reading it later. You're not going to know what's going to happen. I can't know what's going to happen next as I'm writing it in terms of feelings, in terms of the emotional resonance. So that's not to do with plot. It has more to do with how does this all accumulate into this one big emotional boom at the end? How have you been able to free yourself from those expectations that you're discussing?

And also, how do you free yourself from what you know? How do you do this? I mean I'm guessing it's quite hard. Yeah one is that I stop reading reviews. Both good and bad ones. Oh this is smart. No reviews. So smart. Yeah. I don't read interviews. I don't you know if there was a televised thing I don't look at it again. I don't review my life once this happened. It goes along with this whole thing of don't do reruns of your life and look for all the ways that it was terrible. It's good you're not an actor.

That's all I got to tell you. Yeah. We who do public things, you know, this is something that's out there that we have to think about that that can really affect us and how we perform a right or draw or whatever we do, taking us out of that headspace or that heart space. So I don't read the reviews. I also tell myself I do have something stupid and certainly I will have said many things I

wish I could take back on this podcast, but I'll say, you know what? Julie is not going to remember tomorrow and no one's going to remember tomorrow or if she does remember, she won't remember it 10 years from now. So it doesn't matter. Or I say, when I die, who's going to greet me at the gates of wherever I go? Is it going to be a bunch of people laughing at me or is it going to be my mother? So that sets things in perspective as well.

Yeah, I do a number of things to try to get it out. A lot of it is just head in the sand. When did you start to realize you had to do that in order to move forward creatively? Was that a while ago? Yes. I stopped reading reviews with my second book. And I found because every single bad thing ever said about my books stuck in my head in the middle of the night. It was like cap-y on my pillow.

You know, I couldn't stop thinking about it. I couldn't get rid of it. So I stopped that completely. And it's been great. I don't miss it at all. Some people think, well, isn't that hard not to know? And I just say, you know, you can just assume somebody has said something negative for their various reasons.

And part of it is to realize that nothing they can say has really anything to do that is important about what I was doing, why I was doing it. They can't, you know, if I pay attention to it, that means I have to assess why I was writing something. Was I writing to please somebody? And, you know, should I change my writing now because somebody didn't want to hear about docs or hear about, you know, they think my story should go back to being a certain way. Should I do that?

So there's no helpful advice I can get from reading reviews of something already done. So that hasn't changed. That hasn't changed since the kitchen God's wife, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. You know, I do make the mistake of reading reviews. I try not to read bad ones, but it is interesting because when I get a bad review, it has a gap P-like quality in that it is here to stay in my brain. It takes up some space in my brain and not welcome space, but it's invaded. And so therefore the opposite has to be true to, you can't give too much credit to the the good reviews the Reves the whatever exactly have to discard as well all of them right and I'm gonna guess you tell me if I'm right

But it seems to me in terms of your Trying to constantly sort of free yourself from a way of thinking or as you attack your because that was the second piece of this You are strike me as somebody who does new things a lot. I mean your drawing is extraordinary You sing with a rock band You like to you know, it seems as if I don't know if you were snorkeling or scuba diving but with the sharks and the The and so on and so forth. So, I mean, is that a part of the process for you? Is trying new things? Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. That's definitely very consciously something that I do.

I mean, I don't set down and say, gee, what are the five things I should do in the next 10 years? But I'm very conscious of the fact that I should try something new constantly. And it really has to do with things that I thought I would have wanted to do. As well as attempting things that always scared me. Sharks used to really terrify me, and I used to be scared of swimming. It's good with good reason I might point out. I mean, that is not an irrational fear, Amy Tann.

It actually, there are a lot of sharks that are very harmless and number shark attacks are very exceedingly rare. Yes. I wouldn't go out and deliberately swim with great white sharks, covering myself with, you know, steak juice or something. Right. But, you know, a whale shark is the most benign creature out there.

A curious benevolent creature who is very aware of me and swam next to me the whole time when I tired it would slow down and let me keep up. Where were you? Where were you when you were doing that? The whale shark. I did it too once. I was in Islam, Ujarris and the time to go is middle of July, I think. Uh-huh. Yeah, it was it was spectacular. It was life-changing. Aren't they the most gorgeous animals? Isn't the pattern on the skin the most exquisite? It's like it's designed by a designer. I guess it is designed by a designer. Definitely. But it's it's bad to touch it. I learned. Sure. And they told us, you know, not to touch the whale shark and and they told us not to touch the whale shark and don't get into its space. But the whale shark was coming really close to me and it was right against me

and I needed to be at least in arms like the way. So I put my hand, my fist against the side of the shark, just so I would be that distance. And I got out of the boat and I saw there was blood dripping and I thought, what's this blood? And it was my knuckles because the shark skin, remember how they say shark skin is very rough? That's what it is.

It's very rough. It didn't feel that way at the time. You're so excited. You're not aware that your skin is being taken off, sandpapered off, you know, but there there it was. Wow. But the adrenaline kept you probably from feeling it and oh, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I was just so excited. And you know, other sharks, I've, they're white tipped sharks or they're not that big. So they're definitely not going to try and eat something that's beyond what would normally be on their diet. I was in the water once. We were in the waters off the coast of the Bahamas, and this is a long time ago, and I don't want to scare you off, Shari's, but I was in the water. My husband Brad came to the boat, and I was far from the boat. I was just paddling around. We were doing a thing with dolphins and it was a scientific boat, believe it or not.

And I was just paddling around and he comes to the bow of the boat and he says, Jules, I don't want you to panic, but you need to come back to the boat. There's a shark in the water. Anyway, I did get back to the boat. I kept my eyes on the ladder. I didn't take my eyes off. And it turned out it was like a 12-foot bull shark that had been in the water. Oh, yeah, getting back to the boat was smart, for sure.

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The Apple Books app is a single destination for all the books and audiobooks you love, all subscription free. And now Apple Books is teamed up with Lemonade Media for an audiobook club. Every month, a thought-provoking audiobook and its author are featured. The June pick is Honey Baby Mine, a mother and daughter talk life, death, love, and banana pudding by actress and activist Laura Dern and her mother, legendary actress Diane Ladd. It's the kind of story you won't want to put down, and with Apple Books, you'll be able to enjoy it on the go wherever you are.

For more details, visit apple.co-forward-slash-lemonautobookclub. That's apple.co-forward-slash-lemonautobookclub. And listen to Honey, Baby, Mine, Today on Apple Books. Hey there, wiser than mirrors. Just a quick note before we get back to the wonderful Amy Tan. I want to tell you real quick about my new movie called You Hurt My Feelings. It's a little comedy about the little white lies we tell to the people we love the most. I play a writer who discovers that her long time adoring husband who said he loved her latest book actually hates her latest book.

Can you imagine that mind fuck? It was so superb to work again with Nicole Hall of Center who is the writer and director. The entire cast is truly unbelievable. I'm so proud of the damn thing. You hurt my feelings is out this weekend in theaters everywhere. I hope you go check it out. My experience of your writing is that it comes from the most compassionate place. It feels like you get into the skin of your people, your characters with tremendous empathy.

Yeah, I think most writers do that. You have to be sympathetic to your characters, but I also think that imagination or fiction especially is it's good practice for compassion. It's the way we exercise that because we're putting ourselves into the lives of these imaginary characters, and we take on their circumstances and their history, their personal history. But before you think that I am this great compassionate person who's, you know, got really got it together, I'm, I'm somebody has a problem with forgiveness. So oh really? Oh yeah. You know, when somebody has betrayed me, I have a hard time with that. And I, usually what I do is I just let go of that relationship.

And I don't really give it a second chance. It's not the one little thing. You know, it's not that one person said, I really think her book stakes. That would not be enough for me to, you know, give up that relationship. But it would be something a little bit bigger and much more hurtful. And I won't get into those things. But I do sometimes look back and think, well, maybe I've cut off so many relationships because I know so many people, or maybe it's because people see me as a target, and so they will, more people will do things like that.

I think it's not a huge problem, but I think it's an issue that I have to pay attention to. Well, talk about that. Talk about forgiveness and your family. I'm care if you don't mind, because I'm thinking about how your mother and her behavior towards you and you, you've certainly forgiven your mother. It seems oh yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. There's nothing there to forgive, you know, she's She did things for certain reasons that I understand now and everything has Has transformed all those wounds that were there have Are no longer there my mother actually did a wonderful thing and apologizing for all the things she'd done

that hurt me. Yeah, tell that story when she was a little, right? Yeah, she had Alzheimer's in about two years into it. She didn't really speak that much. She certainly couldn't call me. She didn't really speak that much. She certainly couldn't call me. She didn't know how to call. And I got this phone call from her and she was panicked and she was speaking clearly in English sentences. And I said, she said, I'm scared. I don't know where I am. Then I said, oh, you're fine. We often forget things.

No, no, this is different. She went on and on, and then finally, she said, I just want to tell you that I know I did things to hurt you when you were little. And I said, no, you didn't. It's, and she kept insisting. And then she said, I just hope you can forget just as I've forgotten. And that to me wiped away every single wound that I had since I was little, when I was

an adult, anything she had said, it just removed it completely. And I was so grateful she had said that I didn't even have to think about what all the different situations were with the same kind of pain, because she had, in that moment, come back, back into this consciousness, just to tell me that. I find that so moving, and that is such a blessing that you had that opportunity with her. Wow, yeah.

Out of blessing. In your family, a lot of things were kept secret, not talked openly about, right? And a lot of family secrets are obviously rooted in shame. And I have, in my family, you know, there was a lot of family secrets are obviously rooted in shame. And I have, in my family, there was a lot of actually suicide in my family. And there's a lot of shame connected with it. My grandfather died by suicide. And my grandmother really talked about it like as if he had a heart problem.

There was a lot of shame around that. How have you broken that, how have you liberated yourself from that feeling of shame? That trauma. Yeah, that trauma. Well, I think that the real danger of a secret like suicide in the family is that you don't understand why people are spending out of control and the way that they are or that this urge could somehow be planted in you without you're knowing it

because of the way that people react. My mother's mother killed herself and my mother saw her do this and was by her side as she was dying for over a couple of days. She overdosed on raw opium, deliberately took raw opium and swallowed it in a New Year's rice cake. The idea was that it would be sticky and wouldn't be able to be extracted. My mother told me when I was growing up she died accidentally. Later she died accidentally eating opium. You know, you'd think that I would question why was she eating opium? Later she said it was in, you know, she didn't mean to kill herself. She just want to scare the guy. Later it became clear to me by the circumstances

and the date she did it and everything that it was deliberate. There was my mother became suicidal. She attempted numerous times, was hospitalized numerous times. I found out my sister, one of my sisters was suicidal and made several attempts. And I could, you know, I was, I could feel that in me at times this sense that was overwhelming where you, you know, I just felt like I needed to escape. I needed to just obliterate everything. So I wouldn't have to feel this anymore. That was earlier in life.

I was lucky to recognize what that was. That the feeling is equivalent to something like it's like a Charlie horse or it's like you know, these feelings, these bodily sensations, you cannot get rid of. They're automatic. And yet I recognize that when I had that, I could sense that. And I know that's the feeling my mother had. That's, you know, why she had no place else to turn to. And I think by being aware of it, that this was a reaction, I could look at it and not

let it overcome me. Knowing also, I had these other ways of dealing with that, like writing. I could write what was bothering me. I could control my future. I could control what I wanted to do. I had choices. They didn't. So I was not faced with the same circumstances, but I think it was good for me to recognize

that this impulse was something ingrained in me. Right. And it was modeled for you in addition. I mean, it is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is that still a struggle for you?

Is that something that you still work on? No, no, no, no, that's not that that was something that was there in my 20s, for example, and there was a very pivotal moment experience that happened in my 20s. I was in a doctoral program then, but our roommate and and one of our closest friends was murdered and that murder really changed how I had to look at my life and I was the one who identified him and it was a terrible brutal murder and had to go through the trial. And, but I had dreams every night between his murder and the end of the trial

and they just changed, make it completely. You know, that to unpack basically all these insecurities, all these ways that I dealt with, of things, situations in life, depression, all of that. It just unpacked it in these streams, one by one, and better than paying a psychiatrist. I was, that was my next question. $500 an hour, whatever.

Just go to bed and have a dream and work it out. But wait a minute, did you? Yeah. Yeah. Really? Have you been in therapy? Have you ever tried thinking about it? I went to therapy once for four months

because I was working 90 billiable hours a week. And people kept telling me I had a problem. I had workaholism. And I said, no. I don't because I don't like what I'm doing. They said, that's why you're a workaholic. You can't stop working even though you don't like what you're doing. So I went to talk to this guy, this Jungian psychiatrist, and he did the best thing for me. He fell asleep three times.

And then I quit. And I decided what I had to do then was not do what I didn't like. I should do what is important to me. And I started writing fiction. So that was great. He offered to help me write fiction. I thought, really? Are you kidding me?

I think you should give me back the money I paid for. I think you need your money back. Yeah. First of all, I have to tell you, I can't believe you should give me back the money I paid. I think you need your money back. Yeah. First of all, I have to tell you, I can't believe you're telling me that because I've been to a couple of therapists in my life and two of the therapists that I went to both fell asleep during a session.

And I remember, don't you feel better? Don't you feel better now? I do. I feel better now that we have this shared absolutely bizarre experience. I remember in both circumstances being paralyzed, like, should I just stay quiet? So we can't continue. Should I not embarrass him that he fell asleep? Yes, should I say?

Well, I'm mortified, but I don't want to make him feel bad about himself. Isn't it a strange reaction, right? Well, and I also analyzed for him that it happened only when I was happy. When I was crying, when I was really upset, he was there. He was all ears. When I was talking about what a good week I had, that's when he fell asleep. So I thought he's going to reinforce me to be unhappy. And this is very unhealthy.

And I told him that. I said, you can really do people a lot of damage because the message there is that I don't count and also that I'm boring. And that if I'm not miserable, yeah, I'm not interesting. So this is bad therapy. I love your balls in that situation. I do. I really am admiring of that. Did he hear you when you said that? Well, I wrote it in a letter. But I did what you did as I went back and I realized, you

know, I had not said anything because it was embarrassing. And then I said, no, you have to say something. So I wrote it all in a letter, but he never responded. I asked for my money back too, but he didn't give me the money back either. This guy died a while back. But I think he's probably heard me repeat the story that I started writing after my psychiatrist fell asleep three times.

Well, I hope his family has the letter because that's a valuable letter to hang on to. Even if they should have that framed up in there, not for his legacy, certainly. No, but maybe for their family, like, it's kind of incredible, I think. Just going back to your mom, and maybe this is also an unfair question,

but like, what's the most important thing that your mother taught you? Do you think, Amy? When there are a couple of like nuggets, yeah. One that really stands out is that I could not let other people determine for me who I was and how important I was. And even though she was the one who did the most intrusive manipulation of who I was and what my worth was. She did not want me to go out in the world and if there was somebody who was condescending, that I would believe what this person

had to say. And I could see now that she had a real problem with that. Her own mother killed herself as a result of her station and life as a concubine and being told that basically she was worth nothing. She could not tolerate that idea that her life was determined by somebody else. So my mother would often say this, if somebody was in front of us and you could see that they were acting in a disingenuous, patronizing way. She would say something. This person don't trust them.

They are trying to say this to make them feel bigger than you are and that was a constant message in my life. She also said things like about whether I wanted to be a mother, because at one time I wasn't sure. And I think most mothers would try to make you feel that maybe this is something you really need to be seriously thinking about, having a baby, how wonderful it is.

My mother said, if you want a baby, even if you're poor, you can have a baby, you'll find a way to make this okay. And then she said, but if you don't want a baby, even if you're poor, you can have a baby. You'll find a way to make this okay. And then she said, but if you don't want a baby, no one, not your husband, not your mother-in-law, not your friends, no one should ever make you feel you have to have a baby. And she said, I know what it's like. I was raped every night. I had three abortions.

And so she was saying right there, you make that decision. She was a feminist before. I was going to say before there was feminism. Yeah, exactly. She was so modern in her thinking about this. She thought women were better than men. She said, she said something to me about that. You're not equal to a man. You are better than a man. She said that the reason why I should get a job, a really good job and study hard so I can get a good job is so I could be independent. And if my husband treated me poorly, I could lead without a second thought about how I would take care of myself. She didn't have that choice.

And so she was building in my mind the strengths that I would need to be independent, to not be afraid. Fortunately, I married a really good guy. And I do have a good job. But she empowered you. She empowered me. Yeah. Big time. Actually, tomorrow is our 53rd first date anniversary. Yeah. Really? Yeah. And how many years have you been married?

49 congratulations. Yeah. I know. I feel so lucky. That is so lovely. I'm so happy you've had such a healthy long marriage. That's such a another blessing, right? I've been married now 30... Oh, Lord, it's going to be 36. Yeah. So it's almost 36 years. Oh, Jesus Christ, that's so crazy. Anyway, and it's amazing to be married to one person for that long, you know? I mean, it's... That's a lot of life together, isn't it? Well, we essentially grew up together, it seems. I was 18, he was 19. We joke that the secret tool, long marriages, separate bathrooms and separate closets, which can be true if one person is really messy and the other one isn't. And our presence to each other after being together so long and knowing we don't need anything.

It's little pledges to do something like one pledge for years ago it started with he would cook me 10 new recipes you know know, and I get to pick the recipes. Or when it turned out I couldn't drive anymore because I have epilepsy, he would take me places without every complaining. What did you pledge to him? I didn't really pledge that much because, that much because you know, I'd, I would pledge, you know, we would also pledge things that had to do with certain parts of us, personal, he was like, he knows this in me that if I get upset about something, I can't let it go and I'll obsess about it. It's not that even that I have to be mad. It's just something that went wrong or bad service or whatever. And I'll just go on and on and on and on.

And he'll say, let it go, Amy, let it go, let it go. And so I do this pledge to just let it go, to just say you're right. I'll just say you're right, let it go, let it go. So that's the gift. Yeah, the song. That's a gift. You know, because these are things that can irritate your partner, you know, and drive them crazy. So we don't need to give each other actual physical gifts, you know, for every birthday or anniversary or Christmas. We just have this more on a daily basis. That's nice. Although with

you, if you've got your 50th anniversary coming up in another year, I think you need a monster pledge and or a good pair of earrings. That's my, that's my, I actually put a ban on jewelry about 20 years ago. No more, no more. My husband wishes I put a ban on. He wishes, he's hearing this, he's like, oh my God, I'd kill for a ban on jewelry. I know, well, he would go this one store and he'd come back with jewelry.

I said, no more, no more. And I, you know, it meant a lot that now what am I going to do? Yeah, well, I mean, you could wear it and enjoy it, for example. After the break, my conversation with Amy Tan continues. Don't go anywhere. The Apple Books app is a single destination for all the books and audiobooks you love, all subscription free. And now Apple Books has teamed up with Lemonade Media for an audiobook club. Every month, a thought-provoking audiobook and its author are featured. The June pick is Honey Baby Mine, a mother and daughter talk life,

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Lyme disease, right? I still have Lyme disease. It's, it was caught so late that a lot of things are just there. And, but it's managed. I managed it really well. So the only thing that is, that I can't do is drive. And I never liked to drive. So I don't feel any limitations there. I have the permanent damage, the epilepsy, the neuropathy. But I also now have this great fascination with the brain. I've always had this fascination. But what I've learned is that when something

goes wrong with your brain, that's when you learn what your brain actually does. It's miraculous what the brain can handle, what it can do for you, and how much you can still get out of your brain, even if you have this problem, you can circumvent this problem and try working it out this way. So, whether it's a ride from your husband or, you know, whether you can focus on doing something else that is not as limited. Did you ever see that reminds me of that? I think it was even a TED talk that Dr. Hous study who was a... Oh, yes. Yes, you know what I'm talking? Yes, she had a stroke. She had a stroke. And then she was describing and evaluating her stroke as it was happening. Yes, yes, yes. That's an extraordinary piece to watch. I don't have, I have had micro strokes, apparently. And I'm aware of when I've been aware of when that was happening, but also with the seizures,

it's actually the little microstrocks that led me to have permanent damage in my brain that causes the seizures. But your brain, describing what your brain is doing, you know, when it's going off kilter and things are getting brighter, you see colors you've never seen before, you didn't know existed. Real, my vision would become like any eagles or certain things with the sensations of being on a, you know, standing cell and everybody's on a marigold round around me.

Very odd things. And, you know, you're just saying, this is what the brain does. It doesn't allow that to happen. What it's functioning correctly, but it can do this when it's not. So I have this deep appreciation for everything that the brain does. And it's a miraculous organ in your body that you should be grateful for and protect as much as you can. But you seem like somebody who's fit. Do you exercise? I do.

I started exercising regularly about eight years ago, I think, my personal trainer and I were trying to think of how long it had actually been. It came at a time when I decided to stop dying my hair black and letting it go white. And then I would dye it colors, different colors, if I wanted to, which I have been doing myself. And I started taking personal training and I've discovered that I have to pay somebody to make me exercise. And I used to think somebody would have to pay me to exercise.

But no, I would have said, okay, I'll forget the money. I don't need the money. And then not exercise. So, pain somebody. I know I have to pay this person three times a week. And I've been doing that for the last eight years. And the pains I used to have in my knees and my hip and my back My shoulders. I don't have that anymore. Oh wow and my body is so much better than it was 10 years ago or even 20 years ago

So you won't be asking your money back from this from your trainer like you did your You know this is money well-faceted. And he has to listen to me talk too. You know, so it's like the psychiatrist, you know. Yeah. He knows more about my life than most people. Really. Yeah.

That's fantastic. That's incredible. I love it. So, let me ask you, is there something you'd go back and tell yourself at the age of 21? If you could. I'm trying to think at age 21 what I was most concerned about, and that was that I should have a plan for the rest of my life securely in place, and that if I was not getting everything aligned properly, this would be a disaster. And I would want to say that it's not going to happen the way you think at age 21,

that all these things that are lined up, they probably will fall away anyway and won't matter. And that what you'll end up doing is something that is more meaningful to you once you really learn who you are. Because that's what's happened. I started off thinking I'd get a doctorate in linguistics and teach at a university and I'd have to get this paper published and make this discovery. And then my friend was murdered and I realized this was a really selfish way to look at my life and I should do what he was going to do and work with people with disabilities. So I talked my way into job to do that. And then it went from there. I've had different jobs leading up to my becoming a fiction writer. None of that was planned in a particular way. Certainly not the murder of my friend, not the thing that led me to leave that field

five years later or never was planned that I would get published. So many things just came to me and I would tell myself that there would be, there will be things that come to you without you're even asking for it consciously, that actually are about what's important to you. They will come up and that will happen. On the other hand, I wouldn't say it to myself at age 21 because I think it was incredibly good practice to go through all those different stages, because all the, even the bad stuff, even the death of my father and my brother when I was young, or even the things that my mother and I went through, those were all what made me who I am. Those are the things that I write about, where I have to look deep inside of me, of, you know, what's the meaning of this, that in this narrative of my life,

there's nothing I would take out and say, gosh, if I could have I would have thrown this away. It's led to this moment. It's led to who I am and how I think. But that ultimately also means that I have to love who I am. If I didn't like who I am, then I'd say, gosh, if I didn't have this, if this hadn't like who I am, then I'd say, gosh, if I didn't have this,

if this hadn't happened, you know, then I could fix it. And I would be the person I would have wanted to be. But I am the person I want to be. So I don't, I don't have those feelings of going back and changing them because I don't have control over it anyway. Right. And that harkens back to Lou saying let it go. Let it go. Yeah. Let it go.

Exactly. Is there something, although you're not that much older than me, but is there something you would like me to know about knowing that I would get old is I built a house that is universal design. What does that mean? It's designed according to ADA spec. So if I was disabled today, if I couldn't walk, if I was in a wheelchair, if I couldn't use my arms that well,

I could do very well in the house that I'm living in because I have level access into the house. Even though there are three stories, it's kind of a narrow built house. All of the bathrooms have grab bars. What looks like a towel bar is a grab bar. We've had guests staying in a guest studio and they have pulled the towel bars off or ripped off the toilet paper holder trying to get up from

the toilet. This is something that happens to elderly people. They have a hard time getting up. So every single bar in our towel bar is a grab, as well as having official grab bars everywhere. But they look nice. They're cedar wood, wooden things. It look great. Lever for the water faucets that are, if I couldn't control my hands, all I have to do, it's preset to a temperature. All I have to do is bump it up or bump it down.

Turn it on, turn it off. So many different things related to that, I mean, the kind of self-cleaning toilet. I had to take care of my mother's toileting needs at the end of her life, which I love doing. I love that I could be the mom and diaper the child. But I thought if I didn't have Alzheimer's, I might not want somebody to do that for me. So I have a bedet toilet. I'm so admiring of how you've thought all of this through. I think that is, I mean, it's astounding.

I've never heard of anybody doing something like the way you have. And I'm in awe. I am in awe. I am in awe. I've had people say to me, don't be so paranoid, you'll be fine. I thought, it's not paranoid. It's been realistic. You know, it's hopeful. Actually, it's being practical. It's hopeful that I will live for a very, very long time and will actually find some of this stuff useful. So I think of it in those terms. My mother was also a big warrior.

And when I was growing up as a kid, I always had 10 worries on my fingers. I'd count them all. And I didn't want to have to worry. And once I did that, I don't worry. The worst can happen. I think this house would be good for a lot of whatever the worst could be. End of life, I think this house would be good for a lot of whatever the worst could be.

End of life, I could stay here. I even have the bed that goes up and down, that kind of thing. Which is very useful now. Yes, of course. It's good for watching TV or whatever reading. Well, Amy Tan, I have to say, I love your approach to life. I find it very inspirational, and I can't tell you how grateful I am that you took all this time to talk with me today. Oh, yeah. It's fun. It's a lot of fun.

I'm glad. I'm glad we had a chance to talk. We should talk more. We should talk more. I'll tell you the real dirt then. And I'll tell you the real dirt. I got tons of it. Yeah. You always need a

girlfriend. You can tell dirt too. Yeah. That's the best. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. All right. Well, listen, I'll let you get on with your day and have a happy date anniversary and give my very best to Lou as well. I will. I will. Thank you, Amy. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Oh, my God.

That woman is impressive. My mother's going to lose her mind when I tell her about this conversation. I got a zoomer. Hi, mommy. Hello. Hi, sweetie. Mom, yes, I just spoke with Amy Tan for seven and a half Hi, Mommy. Hello. Hi, sweetie. Mom.

Yes. I just spoke with Amy Tan for seven and a half hours. So you were a young person when it started. You were young. And now I'm ancient enough to be a guest of my own program. So I could be some wisdom. The wisdom of the ages I went. So she's been married for 49 years and she's about to go out on her 53rd date anniversary, date anniversary with her husband

Lou. And I thought maybe you could tell the story about meeting my Brad for the first time. Do you remember, mommy? My, you came, we were in Chicago and you came to visit. Well, you were in a play. I was, was it Brad's practical theater? Yes. And you were, you all were in that. So I had come to see it.

And you had been going out with somebody before. Right. Ken. Yes. And then you came Brad, which I understood that this was Brad and this was no longer Ken. And so you spiked him. You all picked me up at the hotel and I came down

and you said, oh, mom, you look so nice. And I said, oh, thanks, honey, you do too. And so just Ken. So. So. So we were on to a great start. And then we go to restaurant. Well, wait a minute, I just want to interject here. I wanted to kill you when you did that.

I was like, can you imagine? No, I cannot. Mom. I was putting up a firewall. But I'm renounced myself. I was so pleased, you know, to be there and blah, blah, blah. But then so we put this restaurant, this fancy French restaurant downtown that was very few that was

just unbelievable. So the name of it just came to me, La Paracé. La Paracé, exactly. Yes. Yes, we're having everything. Yes, do the name of it just came to me. La Pera K. La Pera K, exactly. Yes. Yes, we're having everything. Yes, do the soufflés and bring all the wine and, you know, the skies of limit. There's no end to this. And the meal finishes and I pull up my visa card and they say, well, we don't take visa.

And so Brad's father had sent him because he was starting the practical theater, sent him a master card. No, no, American Express. American Express, okay, to be used for emergencies, you know, you've got a business now this to be used for emergency. So you looked at me with this like a firing your eyes is like, oh, get out of here. And so because Brad says, well, here, I'll be happy to pay for this outrageous expense dinner. I mean, it was I'll never spend more than that for dinner. Yeah, it was

a lot of money. And then you thought to me, you were in the check here, you go so fast. So Brad came through the firewall very well. I mean, well, maybe I'm not sure I've never asked him if you haven't forgave me. Would you you're talking to him? Would you ask him? Yeah. I have a feeling he has, Mommy.

I have a friend. Yes, but that was his introduction to you and our family. It wasn't our first our first our first date was actually a. We played tennis on our first day. Our first date was actually, we played tennis on our first day. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And that was that was really fun. And then we went and we got sandwiches. And I remember we were sitting on a curb eating sandwiches or something. And he was talking and talking. And I kept thinking, this guy never stops talking. talking and I kept thinking this guy never stops talking. I don't know if he was nervous or what, but I mean it was just like it was a non-stop.

Anyway, that's wonderful. By the way, at the event at the White House, which it was just otherworldly, it was so fantastic. Daddy was sitting down and he sat down next to a gentleman and they got to talking. And the gentleman said, why are you here? And so he said that he was your dad and joy at the driver's. And so then the guy nods and nods and so dad says, well, why are you here? He says, oh, well, I'm Amy Tans brother. Oh, they had a wonderful conversation. This being the, you know, that talking about you and you and Amy. Oh, wow. How interesting. Wow. Look at that full circle. That's so cool. Yeah. That's something else. Mom. So cool. Exactly. So cool.

So, Mommy, thank you so much for making time to talk to me for this ridiculous podcast. for making time to talk to me for this ridiculous podcast. And, and please apologize to Brad and tell him that, that, I'm bringing a check next on my CM. No, no, you get, well, feel free to bring us another check, but you did reimburse. You did. I remember you fat accident. It came like in a quick hot second. I think that your whole future is mounted on that payment. Yeah. It kind of did to be honest. Well, think about that. Your mother comes to town and scorches him and and I actually liked him from the time I saw him. But for a song, I really, I adored him. But well, I didn't quite adore him, but I liked him very much. You liked him. I came to adore him. Yeah.

All right. Love you, Mommy. Love you, honey. Now, I'm going to show you, like, the right way. Ha, ha, ha. Now you're. Ha, ha, ha, ha. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of Wiser than Me. Henry Hall, who wrote this groovy theme music for the show, has a new song out, is called

Suddenly a Kiss and People Really Seriously, It's So Freak and Good. So check out Suddenly a Kiss by Henry Hall on Spotify, or wherever you listen to your music, and you can find him at Henry Hall Music on all platforms. There's more Weiser than me with Lemonade Premium. Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content. Subscribe now and Apple Podcasts. Weiser than me is a production of Lemonade Media created and hosted by me, Julia Louis-Dreyfus.

The show is produced by Chrissy Pease, Alex McCone, and O'Hall O'Pes. Rad Hall is a consulting producer. Our senior editor is Tracey Clayton. Rachel Neal is our senior director of new content in our VP of Weekly Production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Stephanie Whittles-Wax, Jessica Cordova-Cramer, Paula Kaplan, and me. The show is mixed by Kat Yor and John Evans Evans and Music by Henry Hall.

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