Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus - Julia Gets Wise with Cyndi Lauper

Episode Date: June 24, 2026

This week on Wiser Than Me, Julia sits down with 73-year-old style and music legend Cyndi Lauper. The pair talk premonitions, pop hits, and why she thinks she owes Steven Spielberg a decades-overdue apology note. From singing in the shower as a kid to writing the Broadway musical Kinky Boots, Cyndi talks about her creative chaos, and standing up to anyone who tells her to “just sing.” She opens up about marriage, activism, and why flowers apparently wave back when you’re famous. Plus, Julia and her 92-year-old mom Judy discuss Julia’s childhood psychic powers. Follow Wiser Than Me on Instagram and TikTok @wiserthanme and on Facebook at facebook.com/wiserthanmepodcast. Find us on Substack at wiserthanme.substack.com. Keep up with Cyndi @cyndilauper on Instagram. Pre-order the latest book from Julia’s mom Judy Bowles here: https://finishinglinepress.com/product/they-spoke-of-the-river-by-judith-bowles/   Find out more about other shows on our network at @lemonadamedia on all social platforms. Joining Lemonada Premium is a great way to support our show and get bonus content. Subscribe today by hitting 'Subscribe' on Apple Podcasts or lemonadapremium.com for any other app. For exclusive discount codes and more information about our sponsors, visit https://lemonadamedia.com/sponsors/.  For additional resources, information, and a transcript of the episode, visit lemonadamedia.com.

Lemonada. Yeah, I'm not sure how we got here, but all of a sudden, we live in a world where facts are disputed. They're drowned in noise, and then they're weaponized. It's like there's this attack on our ability to trust what we perceive. And then confusion and a kind of numbed stupefication are the result. But art does the opposite, I think. Art makes its argument through feeling and feeling stubbornly can't be controlled. History can be rewritten and heroes removed, but it's harder to erase how people react to a novel or a painting or a movie.

I mean, that's why they used to sneak rock and roll into the Soviet Union. People needed that forbidden feeling. When there's so much propaganda and chaos, the artists' job. it gets more essential and, frankly, more dangerous. I used to think that there was no way that people would really riot at those old Ibsen plays back in the day. But now, I mean, I can see how a good play set in, say, Gaza or on the first tea at Mar-a-Lago might cause a bit of a fuss. When our government sees artists as the enemy, when, like, portraitist Amy Sherald, is told what paintings she can. show at the Smithsonian, yikes. That's the start of something truly terrifying. It's a very small

step from here to punishing dissent itself, to burning books in the babble plots in Berlin, which isn't to say all art is magically virtuous or anything. I mean, it's not. The idea here is a basic right to freedom of expression. I mean, I've done a lot of comedy in my career, and people don't immediately think of comedy as part of the artist holding up the mirror to society thing. But, of course, that's exactly what comedy does. And that's why it's the comedians who go down first, the Stephen Colbert and Jimmy Kimmel's. And I've got nothing against more dramatic, serious stuff. I'm just putting a plug in for my team.

So let's make a toast to artists, the outrageous brave people who have a direct conduit from the physical world, to personal expression, to cultural impact. Not just political artists. I'm really talking about any artists who elicits a real human response, who shakes us up in this very difficult, deadened time. You know, Billy Holiday, Aretha Franklin, David Byrne, Bad Bunny, and Bonnie Raid and Rod's Chast and a whole bunch of other past guests on this show.

Artists who cannot help but create. Artists who make the world more luminous, who show us our true colors. And that's why I am so happy today to talk to the irrepressible Cindy Lopper. I'm Julia Louis Dreyfuss, and this is Wiser Than Me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. I lived in New York in the early 1980s. The city was broke, filthy, and genuinely dangerous.

Graffiti covered every subway car. Times Square was a theme park of Vice. I mean, and you couldn't walk through Central Park at night. It wasn't so great in the daytime either. It was a dark place. And then came the moment Cindy Lopper just lit the whole thing up. She was absolutely technicolor, and she ruled New York. She brought the city's vintage punk boutique,

screaming memies, and Queen Street style into the mainstream, insane mismatched layers, hair you could just land a helicopter on. Her don't mess with me attitude really felt like the city itself, you know, chaotic and magnetic. But she was different. She was fun, all caps. Cindy was hilarious. She owned the messy and the loud, a real creative force who spoke her mind with abandon. Pretty hard to imagine Lady Gaga or Chapel Rowan or Pink or a host of Super Bowl.

stars without the original Cindy Lauper. Beyond music, she has been a fierce advocate for social justice, creating real change in the world with her Girls Just Want to Have Fund, which raises money to advance women's civil rights, well-being, and health care around the globe, not to mention her decades-long commitment to fighting for LGBTQ equality. Real dedication has made her a trusted, beloved figure in communities. She is long-called family. And the accolades. Good God, Grammy winner, Emmy winner, the first solo woman composer to win a Tony Award for Best Original Score for Kinky Boots, the first artist to have four top five songs on one album. She's sold over 50 million records worldwide and is in both the Songwriters Hall of Fame and the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and she's very much still out there doing it all, including her first ever Vegas residency, which kicks. off this year. Please welcome a musician, an activist, a woman who is so much wiser than me, Cindy

Lopper. Hi, Cindy. Hey, dog. How are you? Look at you. Oh, that's a nice background. Although mine is a fucking mess. Oh, come on. Well, maybe messy, but it's all really cool looking stuff I'm seeing there. But anyway, let's jump in. Are you comfortable if I ask your real age? Sure. Why? I'm 72. If you look good up. When I first came out, I was very concerned because I was 30 and girls just want to have fun was coming out. And what they used to like to do is tell you, you know, oh, how old are you? And I used to say, what am I, a car? What do you want to do?

Kick the tires, put the hood up and check the mileage. Actually, yes. I know. I know. It doesn't matter, does it? No. Hey, how old do you feel, by the way, inside? 72.

Oh, you do feel 72? Well, what is 72? Well, you tell me. Well, here's how I think. I think it's a bunch of bull that they give you these numbers, and they tell you what you're supposed to do at what age, and what age you're supposed to feel like this, and what age are you supposed to feel like that.

And I think it's a load of crap. Yeah. And they used to tell me when I was in my 50s, and I was working out, I was like, well, listen, Cindy, you know, When you get older, you can't really do the things you used to, and you won't be able to work out because your body won't build muscle. And that's a crook because I walked into, you know, I used to go to the gym. Now I have like a trainer.

And I go into the big boy gym, you know, because there's a regular gym, and then there's a big boy gym where they lift the heavy, heavy weights. Yeah. You know, I was always there with the eight pounds, looking at the guy lifting 20 going show off, you know, just showing off. But my form, look at my form. It's really better than yours, pal. No, you know.

What's your workout regime? I mean, like, has it changed from when you were younger? Has it gotten better? Is it more specific? If you don't mind my asking. Yeah. Let me tell you about the gym when I went to the big boy gym. And I look down and I see this 80-year-old woman and she's,

bench and, you know, I was afraid to talk to her because she had guns. And I thought she could squeeze my head like a pimple. That's how strong she looked. And, of course, my manager was going to the same gym at the time, and she talked to her. And she said, oh, you know, I never really worked out before. But when I was 70, I lost my husband, and I just started coming to the gym. Wow. And a man, I looked at her and I was like, so it's not true.

So they're full of shit. Yeah. Because look at her. She never worked out in her life until she was 70. Now she's got guns like the big boys. So have you been able to really develop muscle since you've gotten older? Yeah. You do develop if you use them.

Yeah. For me, I love stretching. But what I love more than stretching is yoga. Oh, really? Are you a big yoga person? Yay. I'm just learning how to do upward downward dog. correctly. You know, when you're young, you're like, okay, I think I got it, you know.

But it's a combo and weights, right, because you want to build the muscle. But what you really want, too, is flexibility. And same thing with your voice. There's the muscle building and the flexibility. Right. And the sustain. When I started, I thought, you know, when I was in the clubs and I was doing cover bands, which taught me a lot. Yeah. Oh, I thought I was great. I mean, really great. Yeah. But, you know, I could never keep my range because I couldn't fucking hear and I was overblowing

and it was making a mess. So what happens is your vocal cords start banging together and you're pushing, pushing, pushing. So you forget how your voice naturally works. So, of course, you're going to be sore, you know. Actually sore in your throat, in where your voice is? Yeah, of course you'll be sore in your throat. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Imagine if you were doing that with your exercise, if you're pulling, push, push, push instead of just, you know. Yeah. So, you know, I found a good teacher. I've been with her for 40 years. Oh, wow. You know, now, you know, I'll go back. I'm not under strain.

Oh, my God, they drove me crazy because one vocal cord collapsed from COVID. They said one vocal cord has shrunk. I was like, yeah. And then he told me, but don't worry, you can get filler. No, it's not true. You telling me, I get filler in my face sometimes, and I know what it feels like.

You don't feel anything. You can't sing like that. No. That'll wreck your freaking voice. Right. So I told them, I says, yeah, that'll be the fucking day that that ever happens. Wow. I didn't do it.

Yeah. I didn't do it. Good, good. I just went back to my exercises. Yeah, good. I always do. She listened. We worked on strength and building and building and building.

And my voice came back. Good. Good. So, Cindy, I'm looking behind you, and I'm going to describe for our listeners here, I'm seeing racks of clothes and hats and all sorts of things. I know. So tell us what's going on there, because I saw that piece in the New York Times who opened up your personal closet to the public. And you gave the proceeds to your girls just want to have Fund, which is just so wonderful. You sold pieces of your wardrobe.

Well, we sold a considerable part. We have to save something. Well, that was my question. How did you decide what to save, Cindy? Well, I said, okay, you know how you get something? It's too small, but you keep saying, I'm going to lose the weight. Yeah. I'm going to lose the weight.

I'm going to fit into it. And then by the time you can fit into it, it's not even what you'd want to wear anymore. Right. So I just said, nah, fuck it. Yeah. Do it. Let's raise money. And who cares?

You can't. What's the difference? You got to get rid of shit. You got to get rid of it. What do you hold on to? But I love the idea. that you did this in support of women's rights. And it's just, in fact, I thought that was really inspirational.

I thought, oh, shit, maybe that's what I should do with all of this stuff I've gotten storage. Julia, you can't wear everything. No. And after you're done clearing out your closet, I need you to come here and clear out. I have the same thing. I've got a bunch of shit in storage. What are you wearing it? No.

And it's not like hacks. I mean, I watched hacks and I thought, oh, she has in there. plane hangar for her clothes and all of the clothes come down and it's electronic oh my god you know but you know they don't really need that no i don't need that what do you like when you're going you know out to go i mean we know your look your fabulous cindy lopper no that's when you go out but when you go out to a restaurant first it's kind of messed up but it's it's kind of messed up but It's what it is. What?

When you go out with people and you're famous, I always feel two different kind of responsibilities. Dress down, don't look like yourself. Wear something to cover your hair color because for me, you know, I can't wait until my hair turns white so I could stain it. All those different colors, you know. What color is it now? I would call this mint. No, no, but your real color. Your true color.

Oh, honey, I ain't seen that in a long time. There is nothing natural about me. And I have no problem with that. I've been dyeing my hair since I was nine. But I used the green food color because of St. Patrick's Day and I wanted to have like the green dress with the green hair, like all green. Unbelievable. You know. Yeah.

But it didn't really go green unless you were in the sun because, you know, you have to bleach your hair. Oh, right. And I'll tell you. I don't mind bleach in my hair because I don't think that my head will work right without those chemicals. It's time to take a break. My conversation with Cindy Lopper continues in just a moment. And by the way, we just launched a Wiser Than Me newsletter on Substack, where you can get behind the scenes details from my conversation with Cindy and more.

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I didn't describe myself as that. You didn't? That's what my sister said. Well, okay, so I wasn't mild. Okay, so I got thrown out of two parochial Catholic schools. What did you get thrown out for? Why? Well, Julia, I like to say it was political differences. Yeah, I like that a lot. Well, it was true.

I happened to like this one priest, right? This guy, Father Cunningham, probably get sued for it, but I don't even think he's alive anymore. So this guy was always marching back and forth. And for me, honestly, Julia, the fashion. Oh, yeah. He had pants with a pleaded

skirt like over the pants. Yeah. Plus these big beads going down. All right, granted they were rosary beads, but they were big, right? Then he had the shirt with the white collar, but it was black with white, right?

A little French, you know, kind of like the sailors. And I would follow him back and forth, and he would say, what's your name? And I would say Cynthia. And he kept saying, that's nice, Sylvia. So after I was just Sylvia, and that was okay. But then one day I was running late, and I had to go to confession.

And I saw that he didn't have a big line. So I figured, oh, I know that guy. Let me go. So I'd go. My mother was divorced and going through all this stuff. And he said, I didn't go to Mass. And he said, you didn't go to Mass? Do you want to go to hell like your mother?

Oh. And I said, I was eight, okay? And I said to him, I said, what are you talking about? You don't even know my mother. She's not going to hell. She's a good woman and she takes care of her kids and she loves her kids. She's not going to hell. And now, I think I did a very good job of not saying, but you, sir, you might go to hell for telling an eight-year-old that her mother's going to hell, okay?

Because there's something wrong here. Right. But I didn't. And I thought that was a plus, right? It is a plus. But it was a plus. That was a wise eight-year-old. And then, of course, this rat bastard, after all the times he couldn't remember my name.

He remembered my name because the Monst Sr. called up my mother and said, you know, I don't think that you can send your girls here anymore because your lifestyle and what we preach are two different things. Oh, my God. So what do you do? Get rid of them because they might be trouble. But, you know, I think it's extraordinary that you had the wherewithal at eight years old to say that. So in defense of your mom and yourself, it really speaks volumes to your some kind of confidence you had at a very young age and clarity of mind. That's extraordinary.

I mean, there's so many stuff that happened to me when I was a kid and that I saw growing up with my grandmother, with my mother, with my aunt, the stories of the women. I know. You know, after a while, what do you think I was going to do? Right. That's why when girls just want to have fun came out in the beginning, I was like, you want me to make it an anthem? Be careful. be careful what you wish for. Well, yeah.

So can we talk about that for a second? Because that song was written by a man for men saying, Girls Just Want to Have Fun. Ha, right? And you turned it on its head, and you made it a feminist anthem. Yeah. So talk about what you did to that song. How I just edited it.

Yeah, well, what was the editing? Tell me the editing you did. He had this one. wonderful song, Escalator of Life, and it was a little Bowie-esque, and so was girls, a tiny bit Bowie-esque. But if I tried to sing it like him, it didn't work out. It sounded like, yeah, ya, ya, yorn, who cares. And, I mean, we worked on that song over and over.

And then, you know, obviously I took out the part where he goes, that the girl climbed up to his bedroom and it was a lot of fun and blah la la and i was like okay and you got to understand too the history think about the history of music think about who they targeted think about frank sinatra and the girl's screaming uh Elvis and the girl screaming and then i was like okay so then you're in a band and you're a guy and then there's a whole thing with the groupies. And, you know, there were rock guards. They played their instruments and women swooned over them

and would do anything to be with them and la la la. And, you know, here you are a girl, a woman, a young woman, coming up in that bullshit where people expect you to swoon. And you're like, no, motherfucker, can you sing like me? Uh-uh. You can't, can you? So back off, bitch, because motherfucker's coming. And I'm coming big.

I'm not coming little. You know, I have to say, it's interesting, too, because you took that song, which was a sexual song written by a man, talking about the so-called fun he wants to have with girls. Well, it was like he was, Dad, we are the fortunate ones because girls, they want to have fun. I know. And, of course. And you slipped it on its head. But if that's what happens to you, that's your experience.

But to come to a radical like me, but maybe they weren't thinking and say, make an anthem and not think I wasn't going to try and fit it in any which way I could, even in the wrestling. It was all about women belong pregnant and barefoot in the kitchen. Don't get me mad, Lou. Don't get me mad. Yeah. Right? Yeah. You were playing with all of that in the music video with the wrestler Captain Lou Albano.

It was fantastic. And it was a joke, but it's not. I want people to think about it. Yeah, of course. And how many, just how many women are there in the United States, why aren't we all standing up going, no? Just no. Yeah, that's a great question. Cindy, really, that's a great question.

So I have a question for you. I'll answer. Because I watch you, you know, I've watched you over the years and you're very funny. Thanks. And Veepe was really great. Oh, thanks, man. And so was Seinfeld. Thank you.

It was funny. I did mad about you. Oh. And I remember and I won and I thought we're all going to win, but I won. And I won next to, I was standing next to Gene Stapleton. Oh, Jean Stapleton. And she was nominated. I won? I was like, I was thinking to myself, how does that work? And how bizarre that was.

You're talking about the Emmys, right? The Emmys. Yeah. And for our listeners, you won an Emmy for Outstanding Guest Actress in a Comedy Series for Matt About You. Yeah. And I was dressed more like MTV, I guess, and they were so snarky. The press was really snarky to me. And I didn't have a support team to help me through, so I said the wrong thing. But the truth is, whenever you go to those shows, I was standing next to people that I watched on TV all my life. Yeah. All my life. Yeah.

In fact, I used to, like, sing the theme song of Watchy Bunker, you know, all in the family. Because they, you know. Guys like us, we had it made. Yeah, I know. I would just, you know. And I just, I just, like, could not believe. And then when I came down and I saw Seinfeld and you guys were winning everything. You know, we only won once.

You know that. The show only won one time. So it must have been that year. And I have no idea what year that was. How the fuck could that be? We kept getting beaten by friends. I mean, no, not friends. Sorry.

Frazier. Frazier. Right. Frazier. Fraser or what's that other one with the bar? Cheers. Cheers, right. Cheers.

And then France was on then, too, and maybe they beat us too. I don't really remember. But we did win once. So it was some time in the early 90s. It was 94 because my hair was day-go yellow. Okay. Would have been then. So can you talk about back in the early days, I mean, before you hit it big and then you hit it like big, big?

What was your life like back then? What was your style like? We sub-bleased, well, my boyfriend, manager, David Wolfe, which was good at first, but not good after. But I remember that year because I was going to rehearsal. I was going somewhere and I addressed, you know, how I wanted to live that radical way. And that's why my head was short on what I wanted it to be radical, so I never forgot who I was ever. And I was in on Sutton Place in a drugstore, and a woman came up to me and she said, What is that you're wearing?

And I looked at her and I said, this is what your daughter is going to be wearing next year. And I got in the limo and we drove away. Get out of here. I just said that because I was pissed off and I thought, fuck you. Yeah. Now I'm going to make E. Crow here a little bit. because you're scared of me a little because the way I look. You don't even know me, but you've made assumptions.

So I did that. And the next year, actually, people did start dressing like me. Yeah, of course they didn't. And it was weird. But listen, when you were, when you start to notice people dressing like you, was that, I mean, I understand it must have been a little bit strange because it's your personal signature. But then did you grow accustomed to it? Or did you fight or have a desire to it? I fought by making my clothes something they would never.

Like I started wearing long johns and suit jacket over it. I said, come on, motherfuggers, this is ugly. Come on, do ugly. Do you still feel that way now, Cindy? I don't care. I see it. I see what we do and then how it bleeds into fashion. Yeah, but like now, like when you're going to get dolled up to go out and you're going to, like for Vegas, for example, are you...

Oh, that's different. No, for Vegas, I'm probably going to do the show I was doing with a few little changes that are more geared to Vegas that would be fun. I'm coming to see this. I got to come see this. Yeah, come on. I don't know how I'm going to sing with a headdress and move. You can have a headdress? I don't know. I was thinking about it.

I got a headdress in here somewhere, and I was going to, you know, wear it. Like a big thing on your head type of thing? Well, it's not that big. How big is the disco ball thing? It's not that big. Where is it? Here, wait a minute. All right.

You know, I want to have a dinner party where everybody just comes. You have the headdresses out, and everybody just comes and puts on a hairdress, and that's how we have dinner. Wouldn't that be fun? Yeah, I'd love to come to that. Right? Yes, please invite me to come to that. I'm coming. Is this it? Okay, I think... Yeah, this is it.

Okay, here comes a headdress. It's in plastic. Let's see. Of course it is. I can't believe. We're getting a preview of the disco ball headdress. No, but I don't think I could wear it. I wore this for Gay Pride in Hollywood. Was it Hollywood Gay Pride?

West Hollywood Gay Pride. Oh, my God, this headdress. Okay. This looks like the statue. of Liberty came to gay pride and decided it was the 70s. Yeah. Let me see. Come on.

Oh, my God. You look stunning. Right? Everybody looks stunning with a headdress. You look taller. I wish I had that on. I fucking love that thing. Do you have one?

No. You need one. You should do your podcast with a headdress. Why not? I would. If I, oh my God, it looks so good. Right? I'm going to describe it.

It has like seven or eight disco balls and then off over the first. And then above it comes these rays of disco beams and mirrors. Yes, disco beams and mirrors. You're 100% wearing that in the show. Well, I don't know if I'm wearing this. I'll wear something. You could just come out wearing that and then take it off because I would imagine that might be really uncomfortable. Just come out like that.

doing she-bob. It would be fabulous. But I got to have like a heel. I got to figure out. I still am working on the costume. I have faith. I have faith. The costume is going to do research. Yeah, you do your research. And then you put your Cindy spin on it. It's going to be perfect. It's time for another break. More with Cindy after this. So Cindy, one thing that's always impressed me about you is how much creative control you've worked to maintain in your career. I mean, you really had to push, and I certainly know that that's not easy. And I'm wondering if you could tell us the story of the Goonies theme song and the creative disagreement that you had with Stephen Spielberg. Oh, God. I never spoke right to him. You know, he wanted to do

a green screen. And I went to Hollywood to work with Hollywood director. Yeah. And, you know, and instead of saying, I was hoping to be on a Hollywood set, I came all the way here to work with you on a Hollywood set. And at green screen, we do that with MTV. And I, but instead I said, I was hoping we could do something a little more creative. And, of course, you know, and they always had. these meetings when you're eating. So everybody spit up the food and looked at me and looked at him.

And he got up very indignant. He was very upset with me. But I didn't know how to say it right. Yeah. But what's your take? Can you articulate? Well, I think you kind of did. But it really sounds like you wished you had been, I guess, more specific talking to Stephen about why it was you didn't want to do the green screen, as opposed to just sort of judging it by saying it wasn't creative enough for you, that you had been able to. I didn't mean it as it wasn't creative. That's why I feel bad. I understand. Because that's not what I really meant. I just meant that it came all that way. And I never really said anything. And now that I'm getting older, I keep thinking, well, once you write a letter to so-and-so, just so they know,

you know, just like, just apologize, just so they know. That's not really what you meant. And now we got HR, so I, you know, I travel with an HR person. I always say, okay, here we are, kids. Now, remember, that's HR. Now I'm going to talk to you and talk to you straight. If it's too straight, that's HR. But, you know, that's not a bad idea to write them. note. That's not a bad idea. No, I will before, you know, I got a little busy. But when it came off the road, I was thinking of all these people and how maybe they misunderstood. And, you know, the other thing was that movie vibes.

Yeah, you did that movie in 88 with Jeff Goldblum and Peter Falk. I got to work with Peter Falk, okay? Colombo, okay? I know. I worked with him. I couldn't even believe it. I loved that. Like I don't think vibes was the worst thing.

I thought it was cute. It's supposed to be funny. And I thought to myself, you know, it's unfortunate. I didn't know how to take it. It was my turn to get knocked down. And I didn't know how to take that because everything fell apart. What do you mean? Because my boyfriend manager decided we were going to get married 888.

and when the movie came and everybody said bad vibes and that something was wrong with me and so he didn't want to get married unless we were marrying on a high note. And I was like, that shouldn't matter that stuff. So my relationship crumbled. I felt my career crumbled. They let go. They started firing the people. that made me famous that I worked so hard with, who taught me so much. And those are the people

never get credit. Like the people who work with you in the record company, you work 12 hours, they're 12 hours with you. And they never get credit. You're the one that gets credit. But without them, it's a heartbreak. And for me, I just didn't have the stomach for that, and it broke my heart. I couldn't see the people I loved go away. couldn't see the new guy who was a sexist asshole come in and run things. I just, it was, it was a tough, tough, tough time, really tough time for me. I couldn't do it. Oh, yeah, I bet. I mean, that can be just heartbreaking. But then a couple years later, you had a great experience filming off and running because you met your husband, David Thornton. And you were interested. You

were interested in him and I read that you sent him notes and one of the notes had shrimp tails stapled to the note. Well, this is what happened. He was the murderer, right? Yeah. The thing about David, he had a great sense of humor and we used to laugh and laugh. And the mermaids, because I was a mermaid. Oh yeah, you were a mermaid in that movie. Yeah. And they were mermaids with me. And they loved him. And they wouldn't leave him alone. So he kept coming to me and going, listen, just talk to me. Make believe we're talking about something until she goes away. She's scary. And so, you know, I would talk to her. And then finally, I looked at him, I'm thinking to myself, come on, you're Cindy Lauper. They're beautiful,

but you're Cindy Lauper. You like this guy, you know. So I put a nice dress on and we went out to dinner and from there things. But before that, he started writing these notes because, you know, we all joked around a lot. So he'd write just these crazy notes. And then we started writing, I don't know, I had this idea to write a ransom note and staple shrimp tails to it because I was a mermaid, you know, I thought it was funny. Got it, got it.

And so the notes started to get nuttier. And then we were with Lewis Falco at the time. And one time, Lewis, he'd, read the letter and I was laughing and he goes to me, you know, sin, these are love letters. Oh. And I looked at him, I said, really? And he said, yeah. So that's when I put the dress on.

I said, well, fuck these mermaines. If they think that they could have this guy and he's a sweet guy, well, you know. And then you're off to the races. But I couldn't call him David for a long time. I had to go to a therapist because I, the. The last guy, his name was David. And ever since I was little, I always heard in my head, even when I'm going through rough times as a young singer in cover bands, wait till you meet David. It's going to be okay.

And then when I met David Wolfe, I had visions of things. You know, I'm Italian, of course. We live with the dead and everything. Right. So, you know, so I had all these visions and stuff. And then, you know, and something happened. You know, we became famous together. And then meeting this guy and his name was David, it was very confusing because I was like,

okay, now what, you're collecting David's? So I went to the therapist and I said, you know, and his name is David, but I keep calling him the murderer. And, you know, I brought him home to meet my mother and I introduced him as the murderer, not David. And, you know, and we thought it was funny. But, you know, my poor mother, could you imagine we bring home a guy and I say, Yeah, Ma, this is the murderer from the movie. But listen, wait a minute.

Hold on. You just went over something. So when you were little, you had this, what, this vision, this premonition that you were going to be with a man named David? When I was 20 and 21 and 22, I always kept here and wait to meet David. Don't be discouraged. Wait to meet David. No way. Hey. Wait, I need to just dig into this minute.

Have you had other sort of things like that in your life? Yeah. What else, if you don't mind my asking, what else did you know or sense was coming? Well, when I was little, I used to stand in front of the shower curtain and take boughs. I used to talk like I was doing interviews while I was in the, I would always think like that. I don't know why, but I loved it. And I just, you know, I had visions of things, but I never in my life, except one time I had a dream when I was a kid and we had my grandmother's garden, which is a project I'll probably want to do soon about being my grandmother's helper and being in the garden and, you know, chopping all the eggshells and everything. to make the bed for her tomatoes, getting rid of the beetles and the roses. And I had a dream

that I looked out this big, beautiful window at her garden, and all the white flowers, all the flowers in her garden were waving to me. And when I was on stage, after I had become famous, I was waving and all the flowers, it looked like the flowers, waved back. And I thought, oh my God, I'm here. I saw this already, you know. So I always had things like that. And I used to get worried sometimes when I would dream about things and then they'd happen. And I used to get very nervous that maybe I was making that happen and I should have realized, because, before, you know. Hmm.

Are you an intuitive person? Do you follow your intuition? Yeah. Uh-huh. Don't you? Yeah. But some people don't listen to it. That's why I ask.

Well, sometimes you don't, and then you're like, oh, you should have heard what, why didn't you listen? Totally. Yeah. Okay, but I want to jump around again. So in 2008, Harvey Firestein approached you to write the music for Kinky Boots. And you've never written a Broadway musical before. So what was? the steepest part of that learning curve for you? I didn't know. I didn't know. You didn't know what you didn't

know. I like Harvey. I wanted to work with Harvey. And I just finished a dance record. So I figured they just wanted pop songs. I know how to do that. You know, make a good hook. I don't know. But then he kept telling me what he wanted. And I would have done anything for him. So I did. I did whatever it took. Was it different than writing a pop song? Well, yeah, because I kept saying, what are the rules Harvey? Tell me the rules. So I don't

break the rules. He said, sin, there are no rules. So I just said no rules. So, you know, you get together with this one, you get together with that one, you put together sounds and music, and you try and

create different styles of music. for the different characters. Yeah, right. Because the different characters, everybody, even if you know each other, has a different jam that they sing. Right.

And it all has to be a piece of one story. Well, no, at one part it did when everybody say yeah, because Jerry said, I want a song where everybody says, yeah. And I was like, okay. So when I was saying, everybody say, yeah, yeah.

You know, and then I was thinking that that's where they come together in the church of shoes. And, you know, I think the best line to this date I think I ever wrote was you could tell about a fella from his shoes. Because that's a line you can chew and sing at the same time. It's also so true. Obviously. Did you, you know, you're such a fighter, fundamental fighter. But have you in your heart, in your life, have you fought feelings of like being an imposter? Like you don't do. Have you struggled with confidence?

Confidence, yes. Imposter? No. Because I am who I am and there's nothing I can do about it. It's kind of like Popeye. I am who I am like Popeye. But what about when you struggle with confidence? Like when When was a moment, if you can remember or summon? Oh, 2000, 2001, 2002. What was the issue? I wanted to produce my work. I wanted to sing what I wrote. They wanted me to shut up and sing.

And I kept thinking of myself, yeah, when I get that lobotomy, I'm going to get right back to you. But, you know, I couldn't. I'm not that kind of singer. I can't just stand there saying and anything could happen behind me and it doesn't matter. But it sounds like, but wait a minute, you're describing to me

what sounds like feeling very confident. You had the balls to say when I get, or to think. But I had to eat a lot of shit. Like I had to like do interviews where people would ask me, well, you're not on the top anymore, are you? You know, or things like that.

And I would say, while I was choking back tears, I would say, If this is the path I have to take to go where I'm going, then this is the path. And if I have to chop down the path myself, my own path, then that's what this is. You are on such a creative path. You are all about the act of creating. This is my takeaway.

You tell me if I'm wrong. That's your path. You are looking for a creative expression, and that's period, full stop. Well, you know, listen, to me, when you're standing in the right place at the right time, singing the right thing, wearing the right thing, breathing the air at the right time, something happened. and it's otherworldly. And that is the door I keep banging on because it is heaven. You know, it really is heaven.

Your body's vibrating. The color, the sound, what you're saying is important, not just some shite, not just like, it's important. Even girls just want to have fun. And I always laughed to myself when all of the lugheads just not everybody was like that. But on the outside, there was a lot of lugheads who just went with it thinking it was frivolous and da-da-da-da-da. But it wasn't. They were taking the revolution into their homes, to their children, to their little girls.

who actually heard me. And I didn't even acknowledge that until the march, the pussy march. Yes. And there were young women with signs that said girls just want to have fundamental rights. And I started crying. I was like, really? You heard me? I got in so much trouble from everybody for saying the truth, right?

And then I went back to the same people I had started the True Color stuff with and said, listen, they heard me. Yeah. I have to hear them. Let's hear them. Let's help. Let's do something. And you had the True Colors Foundation, and now your focus is the girls just want to have Fundamental Rights Fund. Cindy, can you just tell the listeners what the focus of that work is?

Well, we fund organizations with their boots on the ground, the ones that are really doing the work. And that's what we do. And in March, we'll list everything, all the organizations this year that we donated to. And we added things like domestic violence organization, sanitary napkins for the poor women who don't have. Reproduction rights, of course, and health. Women's health. They need health. Immigration.

That sale of my clothes went to Minneapolis. Oh, really? How great is that? Yeah, you could do things like that. And what the hell? You're not wearing them clothes. So why not just lose it? And also, you feel lighter.

I used to think it was just hard work. But you have to put the hard work in. You have to. And you have to be strong. And, you know, when I married my husband and got to, like, you know, I always thought, he's funny. He makes me laugh. He's really funny. But he also taught me this thing.

Always find the person in the room that nobody's talking to and go over to them and talk to them. because that's what you can do to change the atmosphere, to make it better. Oh, that's a kind idea. Yeah, I like that. And it works and it's great, and it is kind because you could always be the odd man out. Totally. So you and David have been married a really long time, and I'm also in a very long-term marriage, and I'm wondering how you've been able to maintain this marriage all these years. I mean, how has that worked for you? Well, we hardly saw each other. I was always on tour.

And every time I come back, hey, there you are. No, I'm kidding. But, no, for him, like, we're now doing this animated short together. And I like to do indie things because they're more fun. I don't do good with the suits. I'm not a suit person. Yeah, you don't strike. I don't get suit vibes from you.

No, I wish I was. I'm going to have a little, a little bit of, you know, diplomacy. You know, say the right thing in the right way. You know, I even took, and sometimes I'll probably go back, it's kind of like leadership therapy courses, and you've got to, like, learn the right way to approach that personality. And that takes work. Yeah.

I mean, and that has never been my strong point. So I'm trying to learn. that and that will help to do what you because you know what you can't do anything big by yourself no you can't no it takes teamwork it takes team I mean unless you're Prince right yeah that guy was a freaking genius God bless him God bless him is right okay Cindy um I want to end this incredible conversation with a couple of quick questions um is there something that you are looking forward to well we're doing this leaf thing which is a story that David wrote.

He's so really, see, that's the other thing about. David, your husband. Yeah, he's wildly creative. I mean, wildly. He's always thinking this and that. And so it's about a leaf that wants to fly instead of fall. Oh. And it's a 25-minute short, and it's actually really sweet,

and I get to do the music, which I love. Oh, how divine. It's so sweet. It's music, you know. It's interesting to work with him because he directed me. I also do a voice and he directed me. And when you're directed by somebody who's an actor, it's different. Yeah, it is different.

It's like he's my best acting teacher ever, ever. Of course, yeah. I get that completely. I love the concept of a little. leaf that wanted to fly and not fall. I just think that's divine. I hope that comes together perfectly. It sounds yummy. Well, it's coming. Yeah, it's coming. But you know animation is... No, it takes forever. Believe me, I'm involved with a couple animation projects right now. It takes forever. It's a different skill set just to do voiceover work. It's really different. I mean, at least it has been, for me, because you can't

rely on your body. You just have to rely on your voice to get the whole story across. And it's interesting how much you can do, I'm saying to Cindy Lopper. But in fact, it is interesting what you can do. No, of course. Yeah, it's really interesting. Is there anything you want me to know about aging? Not that we're that far apart in age. I got news for you.

Let me tell you something. I was looking in the mirror. I'm going, okay, I go fix that. You know, I'm going to try for thromage first. I'm going to do that other painful thing. But guess what? My face and my body is part of my. business suit. And my presentation is art form. And I want to look good. I don't want to look

windblown. Trust me. I've had things done already. Right? And I keep saying, listen, I don't want to look windblown. You got me here. I don't want a permanent smile and looking very surprised in a forehead that looks like I'm going to like, you know. But I take care of myself because if I want to do good job. I got to look good. I want to look good. I want to look a certain way. And, you know, I want to look like me, just not so tired, probably, you know. And what's wrong with that? I'm going to tell you some of me, I'm looking at you right now. You're just wearing lipstick. I think you look exquisite. So do you. Oh, thanks. That's kind of you. Okay. Is there something you would go back and tell yourself at 21, I mean, if you could?

I don't know. I always felt like I had a guardian angel helping me all the time. And no matter what, even when I was, you know, walking the streets going, oh no, I might never sing again. But even with all of that, there was, well, I come from a long line of women. who survive, who they survive. And what I learned from them actually was you endure. I lived through every bad thing and every good thing. And I think that I was determined to take this path. I feel that God gave me, God, who knows?

Someone. Yeah. You can change the world. if you change your mind, and that's something that Harvey taught me. And I think for me, I was just enduring. And, you know, I had a fortune cookie the other day. Me and David were laughing, you know, because it was Chinese New Year's and we want to get Chinese food.

And of course, I ordered from the worst place. It was greasy. It was bad. It wasn't even tasting like Chinese food. Then we ordered from another place and it was good. and they had fortune cookies, so we opened it. And mine said, besides learn Chinese and here's your lucky numbers, it said, it'll be okay in the end.

If it isn't, it's not the end. So, you know, those fortune cookies, you never know. Some of them are pretty good. Yeah, that's a good one. I've never gotten one that good. That's pretty fantastic. I can't thank you enough for spending so much time with us today. You are...

I think I did. That was mostly the long of the story. Okay, well, that was an extraordinary experience. Okay, let's get my mom on the line. There's so much to talk about with her. Hello. Hello, Lolo. I'm glad to see you.

We just talked with Cindy Lopper for a very long time, and it was really rather astonishing. How old? She's in her 70s now? Uh-huh. Yeah. She's 72. She's about to be 73. And it's like she's got a pipeline to which side of your brain is the creative side? It's the right or the left. Well, the right side most people say, but who knows? Right side. Yeah. Okay. So it's like there's a funnel going from the right side of her brain out into the world. She's an incredibly creative person. That is just like how she operates. It's really quite extraordinary. And she had a couple of. of, what do we think, what are they called psychic things happened to her in her life, which were

kind of amazing. Have you ever had any, like, psychic anything, mom, happened to you or premonitions or anything? There are things I said when I was small that were, that I just remember, how did I know that? But it wasn't a premonition. I mean, I didn't, I was sure I was going to die before or 16. And so when I got to be 16, I thought, boy, I guess I'm going to live forever. And that may be true. But not a premonition. I never had any premonition. You did. You have. I did. I had that one, you're talking about that friend of mine from elementary school, right? Yeah. I had a dream in which we were seeing each other after. summer break and we were back at school and I felt so guilty because we hadn't had any play dates

or played together over the summer and I said oh how are you and she said well my mother died and I woke up with a start and I came into your room and woke you up to tell you to have this nightmare about my friend's mother and then a couple weeks later we found out that it had actually happened. And it was very out of the blue. Yeah. Yeah. So a sad, sad story.

It was, but I do believe that there are sort of lines between us, you know, that not always have language or have, but I agree. The connections, I think, are much more than just being in the same territory. I think that there's a connection. I think that mental energy is, is incredibly important. and strong, and I think especially when our need is great and or when something is happening that disturbs the universe, I think that we oftentimes have a sense of that. Yeah, I do too.

I believe in that stuff. You have to take it seriously. You have to listen to it. Yeah, yeah, right, exactly. Without driving yourself fucking bananas. Right. But, yeah. Yeah.

Anyway, oh, golly. Okay. Well, well, the spring is coming. Spring is coming. I've got some daffodils that are just about that tall, right under the freezing snow that we've had, and the snow melted, and they look like they are just, have had nothing but sun for six months. No way, really? Yeah.

Oh, how nice. So it's going to be a crowd of daffodils. It's going to be wonderful. Then my heart with pleasure fills and dances with the daffodils. William Wordsworth for our listeners. It's a goodie. Yeah. Thank you, honey.

Oh, thank you. That's so good. I love a re-ending with a poem. That's perfect. It's perfect. Yeah. Okay, my mommy, I love you. I love you too, so be brightly. Okay, you do the same.

Okay. Much love. Bye. Bye. Bye. There's more wiser than me with Lemonada Premium. You can now listen to every episode, ad-free, plus subscribers also get access to exclusive bonus interview excerpts from each guest.

Just tap that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts, Head to Lemonada Premium.com to subscribe on any other app or listen, add free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. That's Lemonada Premium.com. Make sure you're following Wiser Than Me on social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok at Wiser Than Me. And we're on Facebook at Wiser Than Me podcast. We're also on Substack at wiser than me.substack.com. Wiser than me is a production of Lemonada Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louis-Dreyfus,

The show is produced by Chrissy Pease and Oha Lopez. Brad Hall is a consulting producer. Rachel Neal is consulting senior editor and our SVP of weekly content and production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer, and me. The show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with engineering help from James Barber, and our music was written by Henry Hall,

who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. music. Special thanks to Will Schlegel and of course my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser than me wherever you get your podcasts. And if there's an old lady in your life, listen up.