Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus - Julia Gets Wise with Diana Nyad

Episode Date: January 14, 2026

This week, Julia talks with 76-year-old legendary endurance swimmer Diana Nyad about obsession, the body, and attempting extraordinary feats later in life. Diana reflects on the evolution of her extreme swims, the chosen family that sustains her, and why loyalty and friendship are core to her survival. Plus, Julia and her 91-year-old mom Judy discuss their most surprising – but familiar – wrinkles.   Follow Wiser Than Me on Instagram and TikTok @wiserthanme and on Facebook at facebook.com/wiserthanmepodcast. Find us on Substack at wiserthanme.substack.com.    Keep up with Diana @diananyad on Instagram.   Find out more about other shows on our network at @lemonadamedia on all social platforms.   Joining Lemonada Premium is a great way to support our show and get bonus content. Subscribe today by hitting 'Subscribe' on Apple Podcasts or lemonadapremium.com for any other app.   For exclusive discount codes and more information about our sponsors, visit https://lemonadamedia.com/sponsors/.    For additional resources, information, and a transcript of the episode, visit lemonadamedia.com.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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This helps you get the fuel you need to power through your day. Ratio does the math, so you don't have to. Head to ratiofood.com to find a retailer near you. I was three or four when I learned how to swim in New York City. I remember my mom would sit on the edge of the pool with her legs dangling into the water from her knees down. And I would sit on my mom's feet and her legs were a little prickly because she shaved them. I remember that vividly and that I couldn't wait to grow up to shave my legs and have them be all prickly, which is a funny thing to think when you are three or four years old.

I mean, but that's how much I wanted to grow up. Anyway, she'd bounce me up and down in the water while I waited for my lesson to start. My mom can't remember, and I was really tiny, so I can't remember, but I think it might have been at the 92nd Street, young men's Hebrew Association pool. Not really sure. But I do remember that the whole building smelled like chlorine, you know that smell, and that I really did love to swim from the very start. When I was pregnant and I was absolutely enormous with my first son, Henry, I turned to swimming for relief. Oh, boy, and it was a relief. Wading into a pool was just magical because it made me cool and comfortable.

I was so uncomfortable and weightless. And I remember wondering if the strokes going back and forth, you know, doing laps, if the strokes were soothing to the baby inside of me. And I have a feeling that they were because now 30 years later, that baby, he's a surfer, and he's in the ocean almost every single day, which is so funny. So when the boys were little, I really wanted them to learn how to swim. And they learned how to swim at a very young age. They had a teacher who was very strict. She was really kind of mean sometimes. But she was a great swim teacher because she was so tough. And there was no negotiation, no nothing.

She didn't baby them. And I was all down for that because I lived in fear of the kids not knowing how to swim and being near a pool and, you know, at a friend's house or whatever. So that's why I endured her toughness. And what the kids loved about taking swimming lessons with her was the first thing she taught them in the pool was what to do if you got in trouble. And so you would turn over, lie on your back, put your, chin up, then you would call help, help, and then you would find your way to the edge of the pool

and try to hold on to the pool. So they would play this sort of SOS game all the time, and the boys loved it. And the other thing that they love was that she didn't want kids going into her house. So if they had to go pee-pee, they were allowed to pee in the drain that was right next to the pool. So that was a highlight of the lesson was pretending. you were lost at sea and then peeing in the drain. It was money well spent, I have to say. I wanted the kids to learn to swim early for safety, of course, but also because I believe that swimming is one of the great primal human pleasures.

Chat GPT is never going to take swimming away from us. Swimming is cool because it connects us to our evolutionary pass and has all kinds of therapeutic benefits for the body and for the mind. And it's just also the most fun. Cannonballs and splashing. What could be better? Our whole family actually recently, well, we all jumped into a very freezing cold river because we were hiking with some friends in the Scottish highlands.

And there they call it wild swimming. And if you hike with my husband, by the way, and there is water, no matter how cold, he is going to jump into it. But this time we really all happily jumped in and flogging. and floated in the gentle current, and we were all so excited and laughing and giggling together. You know, everybody's a kid in the water, you know, everybody's a wild swimmer, ultimately. I'm a lap swimmer now, though. I've gone back to swimming.

And I'm not fast. I'm not strong particularly, but it's good exercise. And looking down at that lane line, wearing my full body protective sunsuit, I'm slathered in zinc oxide in my swim cap. with my special dark goggles and my swimmers snorkel that goes up the middle of my face. Can I say, I look goagious? And I feel sublime. I feel like a swimmer. So how lucky I am then today to talk to one of the greatest swimmers who has ever lived, Diana Nyad. I'm Julie Dreyfus, and this is Wiser than me, the podcast where I get

schooled by women who are wiser than me. Did you know that women are incredible at endurance sports? Yeah. High-intensity stuff usually favors raw power and youth, but endurance challenges like swimming, running, cycling, ultra-distance feats. Those reward stamina and resilience. Turns out, women have a real edge in endurance as we get older. Research all over the place shows that mentally, women often

develop an extraordinary ability to pace themselves and push through discomfort. And that's exactly why athletes like Diana Nyad can pull off swims that feel almost or very much superhuman. In the 70s, when women in sports were still fighting for space, Diana was out in the open ocean pushing her body farther than most people could imagine. She became one of the greatest long-distance swimmers in the world, breaking records, becoming a regular. on Johnny Carson. She looked so comfortable on that stage. And then, at the very peak of her fame, she walked away, not another stroke for 30 years. And here's where it gets wild. She came back. In her 60s, at an age when the world tells women to quiet down, slow down, and shut the hell up,

she did something she couldn't do at 29. At 64, after four failed attempts, after box jellyfish stings, the Gulf Stream's brutal cross currents and the disorientation that hits around hour 40. Oh, God. She came back out of retirement and swam from Cuba to Florida. She did it. No shark cage, just a rebuilt body, an elite support team, and her brain. Her story was made into the 2023 feature film Nyad, which you have to watch if you haven't yet, I'm sure you have. The movie stars Annette Benning, Diana and Jody Foster as her coach and close friend Bonnie Stahl. Over the years, she's been recognized again and again from the ESPN Sports Science Newton Award to her induction into the National Gay and Lesbian Sports Hall of Fame and the U.S. National Women's Sports Hall of Fame.

Today, she leads Ever Walk, a movement about connection, energy, and the everyday vitality that actually sustains a long life. She's a loyal friend, a devoted dog mama, and the kind of person who knows that to pace herself while she swims. In her head, she needs to sing Bob Dylan's It Ain't Me, Babe, 2,000 times, and it equals exactly four hours and 45 minutes in the water. A woman who is truly wiser than me, Diana Niyad, welcome Diana. Julia, what a pleasure it is, and I must say, you know, of all the things you've achieved in your life, I love the fact that we are in a position here where you are sort of touting me as the superior between us because it's called wiser than me. So evidently you think, I'm wiser than you are.

I'm not sure about it, but let's go down that road and see what we can discover. Yeah, let's call the wisdom. I, first of all, are you comfortable if I ask your real age? Yeah, I'm 76 now. And, you know, we could spend hours talking about age and aging. Yeah, right. But I will tell you that I'm real. I get real, you know, gravity has had its effect.

You know, I look in the mirror and I think, those breasts cannot be hanging that low. They just can't be, you know. But on the other hand, I'm really against, you know, organizing. limitations. So, you know, health care companies, for instance, want to put out, well, at 76, you're going to be feeling this. You're going to be achy. It's going to be hard to move in the morning. And I say, bullshit. You know, I wake up and I feel how I feel and I get real with it. And I'll tell you, right now at 76, I feel as strong, as fit, as agile, as energetic as I ever have in my life. So, you know, maybe if you and I talk in 10 years, 20 years, I'll say, well, things have slowed down.

But at 76, they have not slowed down. Really? You really feel as like you did when you were in your 30s and 40s. Physically, you feel like that? All the way. You are so lucky. I lift the same amount of weights. But you know what? It's not luck. It's because maybe there's some genetics. Maybe that's lucky. But when I was five years old until now 76, I've never. had a day off. You know, I've always sort of honored, what do they call it, the temple of the body. And so I've always been in motion and pushing hard and being fairly extreme. So it's not just

I arrived at 76 and, oh, you're so lucky to feel good. I worked at getting to feel this good. So does this mean, let's just get into the weeds of that for a second. Does that mean that you work out every day? Every day. You do? Every day. I mean, you know, I've had a couple of flus through the years. I've been on planes, you know, for 20 hours at a time. But even there, even in the airport lounge, you know, I'll go to a corner and, you know, knock off several push-ups and sit-ups and sit on the wall and, you know, all that. So never a day goes by that I'm not in some kind of motion, if not intense for hours, if I have that time, but just a little something every single day. What about the idea of rest? No, you know, when you're training hard,

if you're an athlete really training for something, rest is part of the equation. Of course it is because without that, it leads to injuries and a level of fatigue that is negative. But as a general rule, I say at least some movement, you know, is required for me every single day. Yeah. Every single day. And like, and just, just because I'm just personally curious, like, for yourself, on an average day, how, what's your, what is your exercise? routine, regime, and how long is it for on an average day? An average day. Well, I'll give you an example, but I must say that Tuesdays and Fridays are extreme. We're talking on a Tuesday, and it's about 12 o'clock for us when we're talking. So have you worked out? Oh, yeah. I work out at dawn. I always get up before dawn. I wish it could walk you into my garage because I have a little...

Yeah, I wish you could too. I'd like to see it. I have a little neon sign. I click it on at 4.45 every morning. And it says persist. You know, no matter what. You know, you get knocked down, you get up, and you persist. So this morning, on Tuesdays and Fridays, if I can, I'm a hotel room or here, I do, do you do, do you know what a burpee is, Julia? Do you do burpees? You bet your ass, yeah. See, there?

Yeah, you do burpees. Well, I do a thousand consecutive burpees every Tuesday and Friday. You're right. It's so intense. I'm shaking. I'm sweating all over the place. No, you do not. Two hours and 50 minutes.

And you know what? Nobody cares. It's not a world record. I'm here alone doing this, but it's intense for me. I get excited the night before I start hydrating and I get ready, you know, that morning, and I'm going to get those thousand pure. Never, never, 99. I'm going to do 1,000 burpees every Tuesday and Friday.

What surprised you the most, though, about your body as it's aged? I mean, just the fact that it has, even though you've obviously aged beautifully. But what has surprised you the most? I guess balance. I guess balance. I admit, I admit, if I approach a steep set of stairs now, if there's no guardrail, there's no, you know, banister. I, not going up, you know, going up, you have your balance and your strength under your legs, but going down, I get a little teetery, and I don't like to feel that way. I don't like to admit I feel that way, but I have. I've lost some bit of balance at this age, and I got to watch out. I'm starting to do all kinds of

exercises like wall sits, you know, to strengthen the quad so that your legs are under you going downhill. Yeah, I understand that. You know, I hike all the time and I know that kind of wobbly feeling when you're going down. It can feel a little bit unstable, so you definitely need strength. Oh, yeah. But I want to ask you about your broadcasting career because there's always It's been a pretty rigid idea of what women should be looking like in broadcasting, right? I'm guessing that you never let yourself feel that pressure. Am I right about that? I didn't feel pressure, but, you know, just to tell a couple of stories out of school.

Yeah, do it. Before the 1984 Olympics, I was with ABC and the Olympics were out in Los Angeles, and there was a big production meeting, I'd say minimum 250 people, directors, cameramen, your producers, everybody, and all of us. announcers. We were there and the name doesn't need to be brought up, but one of the producers put a giant blow-up screen of a Russian female

shot putter. And if you know the shot put, you start, you know, sort of facing backwards. So you're bent down and your butt is up in the air facing the field. Yeah. And then you do your few steps and you twist around and now you face the front. So she

was bent over. She's the world champion. And in front of all these people, he made a joke and went up behind her picture as if he were to unzip his pants. No. And, you know, approach her from the back. And you know what? I can't imagine, Julia, that I and several other women in the room didn't stand up at that

meeting and say, no, no, no. We are covering world-class women athletes. You cut that shit out. But I didn't. I sat there. And I watched that sexism. And that happened. That was dramatic.

That was visual. That was repulsive. But there were several incidents when I was young in the broadcast business, not directed toward me personally, but toward women in general, women athletes, women broadcasters. And I wished I had been more like, not on my watch, you know, but I wasn't. I sat there. Well, there was a new lens through which we're looking at all of this now, fortunately. And did you say it was at NBC? ABC. ABC. Yeah. I have a feeling I know who that might have been that you were talking about. And I was certainly witness to similar types of behavior. It's interesting how women just became inert to it, really, in fact.

Wrongly so. But that was the culture at the time. And I wish you'd stood up too. But I wish I'd stood up. There were plenty of moments in my own life where I wish I'd gone like sit down, time out, you're out of here, you know. And, you know, in my case, I'm sure you know my story, which is. you know, similar to so many women and women athletes particularly, but I was, you know, under the thumb of a coach when I was a teenager, and I was strong. I was as big and as strong physically and personality-wise

as I am today, but I was sexually abused by that coach all through my high school. Yeah. And, you know, do people go through worse? Yeah. But if I had to go through anything that was the most difficult thing of my life. It was that sexual abuse. And now it's taken me all these years to try to forgive myself for not throwing that coach up against a wall saying, I'm going to tell my mother, I'm going to tell the school principal, I'm going to get you fired, but I didn't. I was silenced. I was shamed. And I think it's true with women in careers also to feel like I don't deserve to speak up here. I'm going to lose my whole career. You know, so I think the silencing and the shaming is coming to an end. Yes, I hope you're Right. Shame is a very powerful feeling and can get its tentacles into you in a way that can be very paralyzing. But when you look back on that period of time now and that abuse, which, by the way, I want to applaud you for speaking so candidly about because I know it's helpful to the world. I was about to say to people victims of abuse, but it goes well beyond that. Shedding light on your experience is a very brave thing to do. And it's very,

very good for the universe. Having said that, how do you see its impact, if you don't mind talking about it, on your career and your life, that abuse? You know, I don't think it impacted my career at all, but personally, I can tell you at this, at age 76, even though I am so fortunate to live the life I have. I've had nothing but privileged throughout my life. I'm loved by people whom I love, but the shaming of it is still, Julia, it still ripples under the surface. I can find myself, if a stupid thing happens, I'm carrying groceries in, okay, to the house. And I drop a bag and all the apples roll all over the sidewalk. I start using the angry and abusive language that that coach used on me, 65 years ago.

So it's a cycle that doesn't, like people often say, well, you must be over that by now. There's no such thing as over that. You know, if you've been through real trauma. You deal with it. You find your strength, but it's not like you're over it. So that incident and those incidents of my teenage years, they ripple underneath in a subtle way, but they're still there. So to that end, then, what advice might you have for those people who are trying to sort of unshackle,

themselves from a history of abuse. Is there advice you have for navigating the unshackling? Yeah, this is going to be such a facile thing to say. But the truth is, when you get to the end of your life, you know, it's like Mary Oliver has called us this one wild and precious life that every one of us has, you get to your life and you say, why didn't I deal with that trauma? So I try to get to the end of every day, Julia, when my head hits the pillow, I say to myself, could I have done any more with that day? Could I have been more caring to my friend? Could I have taken my dog to the beach at sunrise instead of working out and giving him that thrill? I try to go to bed every night, which means I want to go to bed on that last day of my life and say, I couldn't do everything. I wish there was more time. I wish I had achieved more, helped more, experience more, but at least, I can say every day I gave it everything I could. So it's, you know, it's easy to say to someone who's been terribly abused and gone through desperate trauma. But if they can get to that point to say, that guy, he has nothing to do with my life. I'm living my life and it's precious and I've only

got one. So I better get living it the best I can. It's time for a break. Stick around to see what we have in store. Be right back. Everywhere you look, someone's telling you the right way to get protein. Tofu, chicken, salmon, powders, bars, shakes, even things like protein water. The options are endless and so is the noise. And honestly, most days, it's overwhelming. You just want something that's quick, reliable, and actually tastes good. That's where our sponsor, ratio protein, comes in. Racial protein yogurt has 25 grams of protein per cup. That's more protein than four eggs, making ratio the most protein per cup in the yogurt aisle all without any added sugar.

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to find a retailer near you. So let's talk about your swimming career because it's obviously an extraordinary one. And first of all, when you were a kid, How soon did you realize that swimming was something that you had an intensity for and a passion for? I mean, and what role did it play for you emotionally when you were a little kid? What was that evolution like? Yeah. You know, I think that whether you're playing the cello or swimming or playing chess or whatever you are as a kid, as a general rule, I think most kids pursue things that they're good at, you know.

Yeah. Were you, you were immediately good at it, Diana? I was good. I was good at moving through the water. I had a fire. I wanted to take a long vision dream, and I liked working with discipline for years and years at something. That's what really drove me to be a good swimmer more than the actual talent of swimming,

even though I would say I had that too. And at 17, you were really hoping to make the Olympic team, right? I tried as I was a teenager and coming toward the Olympic trials for 68, I did not make, I had one last 100-meter backstroke. And that night, I would have either gone on to the Olympic trials the next day or I would go on to the rest of my life. And oddly enough, the wisest thing anyone said to me was a 16-year-old girl named Suzanne. And that was the night I was going up to that 100 meters, knowing. that my chances now were slim to nil. And she came up and grabbed me and said, listen to me. When you finish this race, you touch that wall and you close your eyes and you close your fist. Don't look up. Don't look up at the scoreboard. Don't look around the pool and see what your time was and what you finished. And if you're going to the trials or not, I want you to close your fists and close your eyes and say, I couldn't have done it a fingernail faster.

If you leave this pool tonight like that and you don't go to the Olympic trials, you'll have no regrets. And I left that night, Julia, I put my heavy bag on the floor of the pool deck. And I looked up at the stars. And I mean, we're talking about 60 years ago now. And I said to myself, no matter what you do, no matter where you go, you live every day of your life. So you cannot live it a fingernail better. and you'll feel just as good as you do tonight. You didn't succeed, but you are proud and you have no regrets.

So that was the greatest, wisest advice I ever got. That is an amazing advice for a teenager to give another teenager. Are you in touch with this chick? All the time. And by the way, she was also abused by that same coach, which we didn't know then. We found out years later. No. Yeah.

Yeah, it's a heavy story. That's a heavy story. But now you're really joined with her. That's so incredible. So then you started making these extreme swims shortly after that, right? Yeah. Yeah. Just like in running, you know, sometimes you'll have a great miler who is a good miler. And then maybe he or she isn't a great miler, but definitely has endurance chops. So after years of trying to make Olympic teams and win NCAA titles, you know, they bump up to a longer distance where they may not be as fast as the great milers of the world, but they can keep up a pace that even the great milers can't keep up. So that was definitely my story, and it's true of many swimmers who maybe aren't quite Olympic level, but they can keep a very good pace for a long, long time that even the sprinters can't do. So that's our talent. Well, it's a hell of a talent.

For real, seriously. So in 1975, you were 26 and you became the seventh woman to swim around Manhattan. And then you were becoming famous. And you were sort of a fixture on the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson. By the way, you were great on Johnny Carson, I got to say. You had incredible. You had such swagger and confidence. And I just loved your whole vibe.

But what was that transition like for you from athlete to sort of public figure? Did you enjoy that transition? Yeah, I suppose. I mean, you know, I am, you know, kind of a, you know, what's the word when you're outward when you're, I'm looking. An extrovert. Yeah. I'm not getting introvert vibes from you. I got no introversions. As a matter of fact, I got to work on that. I really got to work on that. No, you don't have to work on it. No. But I felt, you know, all my life and believe me, compared to you, compared to Annette Benning, you know, Jody Foster, some people that I've had a chance to work with and be with. You know, I'm a very small, small public figure. But I've always enjoyed, I'm a people person.

And so if I get on the Johnny Carson show, it's not just him. And by the way, at least of that era, he was the very best. He literally looked you in the eye. And it was interviewing you rather than looking past you at the teleprompter to see how his tie looks. Well, you know, and to that end, I agree. Yes, I agree. And I have to tell you something that I noticed when you went out there, and it may have been your first actual appearance with him, and you made sort of a rye comment about, what was it? Something about it. I didn't know if I'd actually get a chance to meet you for some such thing. And he held for the laugh, which he did so brilliantly all the time. And then before he spoke, during the laugh, he looked. looked at you and he winked. And I loved that because he was letting you know that it was cool, you were cool, we're in this together. There was such camaraderie in that tiny second. I agree. Yeah, it was a beautiful thing to see. But back to your swimming, it's interesting to

consider that in 78 you attempted the cubit of Florida swim for the first time and you didn't make it. Then you did the swim from Bahamas to Florida, which really kind of cemented you in this universe of a super sports star. But then you retired. And I'm curious why you didn't reattempt Cuba then, particularly after you had successfully done Bahamas to Florida. Yeah. No, it's a fair question. I went back twice. after not making it in 78, I went back twice. And by the way, you know, we mentioned training before.

Each time you go back, you're training for another full year. I mean, this is just, it's your entire life. I went back twice, and one time it was weathered. The wind blew out of the east for 91 days. You want to do that swim in the summer because you're going to lose a lot of weight. And the water, you want it to be as warm as possible so that you can keep your metabolic rate going. How warm is it at its warmest? It's over 80 degrees, which is warm. If you were on vacation, you'd say, oh, it's a little too hot. Right, but if you're in it endlessly, it starts to get cold. Your body temperature starts to go toward the temperature of what you're immersed in.

So if you're immersed in 80 degrees, that feels very warm when you're strong and you've got lots of energy and you're fit. And then two days later, when you've lost a lot of tissue and you're on breathing, fumes and you actually, in 80 degree water, you can feel cold if you're in there long enough. So why didn't you reattempt? I'm so curious. Well, you know, other things happened when I was 30, so that's two years after trying it for the first time. And after training for two more years, I was starting to get offers from ABC Sports, from National Public Radio. And, you know, I had no career except for the swimming. And I just thought, you know, I got to take these, I got to take these these offers. I got to start making a professional life for myself. And so the next 30 years,

that's what I did. And you know what? I'm not going to complain about those years. I'm chasing after Olympic heroes who are pursuing their excellence and telling their stories. But at the end of that 30 years, I started to feel tremendous malaise. I started to feel like I'm not a doer anymore. All I do is follow other people around and tell their stories. I want to be back to my own story again. So I was 60 and I thought, well, I don't know, but I'm going to give it a try and see if I've still got it. But you did crush it pretty much as a broadcaster. And I know that you, and you had your own NBC or CNBC show, right, from 89 to 92. Yeah, I did. On CNBC, I did a poor man's version of a Barbara Walters special. So I would go out to try to get Julia Child or John McEnroe or anybody I could and we'd piece together a horrible. produced half hour and I would

be the interviewer but I loved it. I want to ask you, but I want to ask you about the Julia Child bit because I know she made you breakfast? She did. I went to a wine show in New York City. I'm not a wine drinker but I wanted to talk her into being on my little CNBC

show. But I got a hold of Julia and I said, is this kind of crazy but I do this little show? She said, sure. And she gave me her address in Boston and we hooked it up and I went with my cameraman and sound men And we stood down, you know, Boston has like New York those, what do you call brownstones. So she was at the top level.

And, you know, she was a very tall, large woman. That's right. Over six feet tall. And when she came out on the brownstone, we looked up. I mean, she looked like a Norse goddess. She was gigantic. Yeah. She clearly was upset about something.

And she said to us, oh, you'll have to forgive me. I know you've come a long way from New York. but today is the first day that my husband doesn't recognize me. And we just went silent. And we said, you take good care of yourself. We're so sorry. We started to walk away. And she called us back.

She said, no, you know what would make me feel good? I'd like to make you guys breakfast. So the three of us went in. We sat around her stool. She made a loaf of sourdough bread. She made a fiends herb omelette. And she didn't do the interview that day. She didn't want to.

But she did later. And did you get that? Did you get her cooking for you on camera? No, she didn't want that. She didn't want us to open our bags. She just wanted to have a human moment. And I'll never forget it. Oh, that is unbelievably tender and touching. Yeah. And it wasn't necessary to film it, you know. That would have. So wait, what kind of omelette did you say? It started with a fiends air, but you know, like a fine herb. Oh, fine herb. Yes. Feins erb. Yeah. And you're and you're, and you're, and you're, and you're, and you're, You were out publicly as being gay when you started your broadcast career, right? Yeah. Oh, earlier than that. I think by I think by 1972 I was out. Yeah. By even before. Well, so can please, please unpack that a little bit because I would think that that was a rarity back in the early 70s and certainly in the early 80s. And what was that experience like for you to come out publicly at that time versus like now? You know, honestly, it was a nothing. I mean, I just always have been, we mentioned in the very beginning about physical limitations and age limitations. And so I've been gay, I'm sure if I really could dig it back since fifth grade. But, you know, in my own mind, knowing it and being able to speak it out, it was when I was about 21, which was the early 70s. And I've never had a problem. I was out at ABC Sports. Nobody had a problem with me because I refused to let there be a problem. I'm not going to walk into a room, you know, with some sort of inferiority feeling like,

oh, my God, I'm a woman, so I don't deserve to be in this room of sports guys, or I'm gay. So I, oh, I shouldn't let that be seen among all these straight married people. I just, you know, as I said in the beginning, I find that all bullshit. Life's too short to worry about what other people are thinking. It's definitely bullshit, but I'm just wondering if, and it's so fantastic that you had that attitude about your own self. But I'm guessing you came across people that didn't have that attitude.

I guess you discounted them. And also, I want to know what your mother's response was to this to your sexuality. Did she have a... Was she cool with it? Yes and no. When I first told her,

I was at college, I came home to Fort Lauderdale, Florida during Christmas break. And I said, Mom, I'm gay. And my girlfriend is visiting. she's in another part of town, but tomorrow night we're going to go out to dinner. Do you want to go?

And my mother was very, you know, she was raised in France, and she had a very open, you know, like, oh, come on, you know, all the great artists of life have been gay, and it's not a problem. The next night, my girlfriend came over to the front door,

and I was in brushing my teeth in the back bathroom, and I heard this screaming, I came, my girlfriend was running down the street. She left the car. She was running down the street. I said, Mom, what did you say? She said, it's not right, you know?

I want you to have children. I want you to have a good life. You know, you can't, this gay thing, this homosexual thing, it's wrong. Well, it didn't take her long. It took her a couple of months, but she had that immediate, oh, you know, it's nothing. I'm French, you know, everything's cool to you're not going to be gay. And it didn't take her long to flip on it. But wait a minute.

That was like within a 24 or 48-hour pyramid period, she did that. pivot? Yeah, she did. She knew she was wrong. That's crazy. That's crazy making. Yeah. What was your response? Were you horrified? Well, I mean, it's a lot better, isn't it, than a parent who might go for the rest of your life, not expecting you're gay. She got around to it pretty quickly. And so we were both kosher with it, you know. Incredible. Did you go running after your girlfriend? I did. I did. That was a bad night. Yeah. Yeah. I bet that was a bad night. It's time to take another break. My conversation. with Diana Nyad continues in just a moment. And by the way, we just launched a Wiser than Me

newsletter where you can get behind the scenes details from my conversation with Diana and more. You can subscribe now at wiser than me.substack.com. You'll get photos and videos, letters from me. Think exclusive bonus snippets, glimpses behind the scenes of the making of the podcast, you know, a real deep dive into every guest, plus a place to connect with other words. Wiser than Me listeners. I hope you subscribe at wiser than me.substack.com and stick around to see what we have in store. We'll be right back. At a certain age, you suddenly realize the importance of keeping your body strong. That's why it's easy to understand why so many people are talking about protein goals. It keeps your bones sturdy, helps you keep the muscle you've worked for, and is great for recovery

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breakfast bowl, a creamy dip for your next get-together, or throw it on top of your favorite dinner recipe to sneak a little more protein into every dish. Rationo does the math so you don't have to. Head to ratiofood.com to find a retailer near you. So fast forward to age 60 when you, when you decided, okay, I'm doing this swim from Cuba to Florida again. And you had gone through menopause by this point. So what was the experience of getting back in shape like, you know, in your 60s? Yeah. Well, you know, in sports, there's a real specificity of the parts of the body and the type of training you do. So for me, I've never been out of shape, but I wasn't a swimmer anymore. During those 30 years, From, you know, my turning 30 to my turning 60, I was a big bike rider, did a hundred-mile bike ride every Friday, did kick-ass gym workouts, would climb to Mount Kilimanjaro.

You know, I was physical and I was in shape, but I was no longer a swimmer. And swimmers have very specific muscles, the lats, the shoulders, the triceps that have nothing to do with your going out and running marathons, you know, and riding your bike somewhere. So I'll tell you, those first few months, once I made the commitment to see if I was capable of this, chasing this dream again, I was under water. I was riding low in the water. And I would sit in my car with giant ice bags on my shoulders when I was done with just a four-hour swim. And I'd fall asleep for hours. I'd be so knocked out. But I stuck with it.

And month by month, week by week, I started getting there and I became a swimmer again. but it wasn't overnight, that's for sure. How long did it actually take for you to get to a good place? I'd say by December, so that was four months. You know, I started at a couple hours, and I moved to four hours, and by December I was doing 12-hour swims in a pool, not yet in the open ocean, but in a pool, 12 hours, which is tough on the shoulders, you know,

you're definitely going to developing the swimmer's body in 12 hours a day. Can I tell you something? I have, in my life, I swim sometimes, I do lap, And I feel like such a nothing talking to you because, I mean, like, I feel really good if I swim a mile. Like, that is a really good day. You know what? That is good. Bravo.

I say great for you. Yay, that makes me feel so good. So you tried it four times in total before your fifth time when you swam from Cuba to Florida and you succeeded. You've talked a lot about your ability to disassociate from. pain, you know, during your long swims. Yeah. I'm really interested to know how your brain works at, you know, hour 20 versus hour 40 versus hour 50, you know, what's happening to your brain, if you can recall.

But also, are there times in your life now when sort of disassociating is useful for you? Yeah. I think disassociation, you know, I'm not sure what a, you know, clinical psychologist would say about this? I'm not sure either. Okay, so good. We're just too lame and talking. Right. I think the disassociation can take on a positive side of the coin, which is sharp focus. So disassociation means you're not paying attention to some of those other aspects at the moment. You're leaving them aside, and you're right in this moment. So just picture. I wonder if you could. Just, you know, as an actor, you could do this. Let's say you're going to sit in that chair right where you are at your microphone for

53 hours. And we're going to give you some water. We're going to allow you to go to the bathroom every now and then, maybe a little bit of food, but you're not going to be able to watch anything, no visual stimulation at all. You're not going to be able to talk to anybody. You're just going to be in your own thoughts, and you're not going to be able to sleep for 53 hours. Trust me, even though you're not spending huge amounts of calories, swimming in a big open sea, you are going to start disassociating. Can I call 911 during this process? You can't call emergency services. So you can imagine if I'm out there swimming for two and a half days nonstop, you are going to disassociate.

You're going to be in this interior little world of your mind. And you're going to start, you know, the wafting scenes of your childhood are going to come, you know, floating across your mind. It's like a dream. It's like a dream. You are dreaming. And actually sleep experts have told me that I was actually in a left brain awake. and a right brain dreaming situation at the same time as you're going along. You're like a dolphin. Dolphins do this.

They do that. Yes. I actually miss that. I miss that extremity. Yeah, that's cool as hell. Yeah, yeah. So you're starting to get down with who you are, what you believe in in this life. It's a sport where you're not allowed to use headphones, so you're not hearing any music or

podcasts or anything else. Nothing. And you're just with yourself, you know? Yeah, wow. I mean, that is just so enormous. It's so intense to consider. But then when you've completed that swim, is there a period of, I mean, it must be wild to come down off of that process. I mean, like you said, you're working with the team and, you know, you're all in it together and you triumphed.

and it's amazing, and now it's done. And so where does the energy of that endeavor go? Yeah. Well, honestly, it's the question right now for me and my life. That swim was 12 years ago. Yes. And so, yes, I do get on stage and tell it. It was like this, and the storms raged and the jellyfish were this.

So that's a past story, isn't it? There's nothing that can match. You know, the high-octane feeling it is to pursue something physical like an athlete and achieve it and be on top of the world. You can't get it again. So what am I going to do? I don't know what you're going to do, but I'm curious about it because like in my own life, when I, you know, finish shooting a film or finish shooting a TV series that can go on for years and years, there is a period of time when it ends when it's like proper great. grief. I mean, first of all, it is teamwork when you're working on a production for certain. You know, it's not just you and a camera lens. And you're working with tons of people. And it's like sports because you're all on a team working towards a goal. And when you ultimately walk away from it, there is a really strange feeling for me anyway of being untethered for a moment. Like, what will I do with myself now?

Yeah, yeah. You know, it's a strange, it's an adjustment. There's no doubt about it. You adjust. Yeah. You adjust, but there's an adjustment, right? Well, and if you don't mind my saying, because I mean this, you know, with all due respect, but, you know, clearly you're at the upper echelon, so there are so many actors, directors,

etc., who have one series and feel very lucky that they did. but they don't ever get another one. And they, you know, so they, that's a real depression and that's a real, you know, sort of washing around for years saying, but I had that one, that one eight year, you know, series that was so great but never, whereas in your case, if you don't mind my saying so, when you get done, even though you can mourn, you know, those, those moments of working on that project, that film or that series, you know, chances are you're going to have. have another series and another movie and, you know, and always look back at the ones that you

felt most fond about, whereas the athlete is almost always never going to have that again. Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah. Although I would say the sort of the parallel might be that, you know, when you do get it working, it's not really a comparison, but when you do get it working on a series or a movie and you know you've got something like lightning in a bottle. Yeah. That's lightning in a bottle. Yeah. You know, to capture that again, it doesn't mean you're not going to work again.

But to capture a certain kind of magic is magic. Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure. So I want to just really talk about your wonderful friend, Bonnie. And tell me about Bonnie. And you guys have been friends for how long? 48 years. Oh, God, that's so nice.

Yeah. Long time. And how long time? And how long did it take you to talk her into doing the Cuba swim with you? Was that a hard sell? Bonnie, you know, we're quite opposites in just about every way. And it's one reason that I value her friendship so much is she plays her cards very close to the vest. So when I first told her, you know, first of all, she saw the goggle lines around my eyes.

And she said, what is there? Because I wasn't a swimmer, you know, when I met her. Yeah, just like in the movie. Right. Oh, yeah, I forgot that was in the movie. Yeah. She, you know, and I said, no, no, no, I'm just, I've just decided to add swimming back into my routine a little bit. You know, I didn't tell her about the extremity of it.

And then when I finally, she was the first one I told that I'm going to go back and chase that dream. And I asked her to be my trainer, even though she doesn't come, she comes from the world of sports. Right. You know, number three in the world on the racquetball tour, college tennis player, beautiful with any racket in her hand. But not a swimmer. And I had had many swimming coaches through the years who really come from that. sport. And I thought she would be the one. She'd be the right trainer coach for me. And, but she was typical. She said, um, I'd have to see you first. I'd have to go out in the ocean on a boat and see

what it's all about. So I'm not saying yes. And she did. She came down to Mexico with me. I was still in those early days of trying to get back to being a good swimmer. And she cried. And she's not a crier, Julia at all. I could count when her father died, when her mother died, when two of her dogs died. It's the only time I've ever seen her cry, but I came to the side of the boat and she was crying. And I thought something was wrong. And she said, I've just, when you see someone who's the best at what they do, do what they do best, it's very moving. Yes, I'm in. Oh, my God. That's how we got to that. And so what's your connection? How does it feel different now than when, I mean, it's now, however, it's been whatever, 13 years since that, you know, she's not your coach necessarily, but she's your

close friend. How does that connection work between you now? Oh, like it did the day we met 48 years ago. We're like two golden retrievers who pal around together every day. So we see each other through surgeries and through deaths and through births. We know each other's families inside and out. We've been lovers. We've been best friends. We've been shared the same home and not shared the same home. And none of that, none of those details matter. She is my number one commitment. in life. And I am hers. So, you know, people can call that whatever they want. We don't care what they call it. But we're, we're dedicated to each other. God, how lucky are you to have that relationship? That's so fabulous. What a blessing. I take my lucky stars every day for Bonnie.

Oh, that's nice. I need you to be my friend now. I need you to be my friend. We're getting there. We're getting there. I feel it. I think we need to play some tennis together. That's what I see materializing. No, no, I'm so bad. Me too. I'm bad. Maybe I'll do burpees with you. I'll do the first 100 burpees. Okay. And then I'll count the 900 for you. You think you could? Could you do 100 burpees? Yes. Wow. But I can't go beyond that. I'd like to be the judge of that. I'd like to see that because I doubt it. Oh, fuck. I feel like that we're going to do. You doubt that you. You doubt that. Okay. Okay. All right. First of all, may I say, fuck you to you, Diane and I. Oh, the ultimate compliment. The ultimate compliment is right. I've never said that to any guests on the show in my whole life. When Bonnie says later, how'd the interview go?

I said, it was so successful. In the last five minutes, Julia said, yeah, well, fuck you, Diane. And I thought, yes, we've arrived. Oh, my gosh. I have a couple of quick questions to ask you before we end our conversation, which I've enjoyed tremendously. Me too, Julia. Is there something that you will go back, Diana Niyadh, and tell yourself at the age of 21?

You know what? I'm just going to be frank with you. Yes. I rail against that question. Do it. Because life doesn't work that way. You know, you... Well, by the way, I didn't say these questions were how life worked.

Okay. Well, I can't entertain the concept of... talking to my 21-year-old self, that person had to gain her own knowledge at her own time. And so, you know, I wish I could travel in a time machine and go back and tell my 21-year-old self to shape up and to be more this or that and get over that sexual abuse bullshit and all that stuff. But I can't. I can only live my life as I go along just as if I stand up in front of a group of 21-year-olds as opposed to usually it's middle-aged people I'm speaking to. I'm not going to say to them, listen to you guys, you have no idea how fast this life is going to go by. I want to scare you into thinking, you know, you're going to snap your fingers and you're going to be my age. They don't believe that.

They're not going to buy into that. They're not ready for that kind of vision and that kind of maturity. So I can't talk to my 21-year-old self. I can't. And I hear that. I hear that. I understand you're railing. And I think actually your point is well made, although I will continue to.

to ask the question because I get interesting answers like the one you just gave. Okay. I mean, it's true. Okay. You can't, your 21 year old self wouldn't have been open to hearing the answer to that question right now. Having said that, is there something that you'd like to go back and say yes to? Please don't rail against that question, Diana. Wow, I never thought I'd talk about this. but I lost my marriage. I was with a, just a, you know, the light of my life for 10 years. And she said, I'm asking you not to go have this affair. I'm asking you to say yes to me, to look me in the eyes and say, yes, Nina, it's you and I will not go.

I'm going to do what you're asking me to do. and I was, you know, silly and young, and I said, no, I'm going. And I'm not saying that would have changed our lives. She, after that, had children. I'm the godmother of those children. So life has ensued just fine. But if I beat myself over anything, it's that I didn't say, yes, Nina, I'm going to stay here. I'm not going to do this thing.

So it's got kind of heavy, but now that I think of it, that's one. No, that's all right. I appreciate the honesty, and I think it's, and it's particularly interesting to consider that even though you have that regret, which is what it sounds like, you, things worked out. It's okay. No, they did. Yeah, they did. Absolutely in the end.

How old were you when this happened? I'm trying to think. It was 1980, so I was 40. I say. Yeah, it was 40. I see. Yeah, a big lesson, big lesson learned, you know, life lesson. Yeah. Well, that's a perfect way to end our conversation. I can't tell you how much I've enjoyed every goddamn second of this. Thank you so much. Thank you. And I promise myself I wasn't going to fawn over you today, but I can tell you, it's been a big deal for me to get interviewed by you on this show. Thank you. Oh, so please. Well, that gives me great joy. And I'm looking forward to doing birthdays with you. Anytime.

I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. Yeah, you better get training because 100 is quite a few. No, it is quite a few, but it says the woman who does a thousand two times a week, please, give me a goddamn break. All right. Well, I need to start training for my workout with Diana, but first I'm going to call my mom. And we'll make it quick because I've got to get training. But I do want to tell her all about this conversation. Let's get her on the Zoom right now. Hi, Mom. You look so spiffy today in your jacket.

Thank you. Thank you so much. It's cold here and this is warm jacket. Are you in snow? Yeah, we still have snow. Oh, that's nice. It's cozy, I think. Yes. Right? Yes, exactly. So, Mom, I talk to Diana Nyad. I've seen the movie about her.

We saw the movie. So she attempted to swim from Cuba to Florida when she was 29 years old and it didn't work out. And then she went back to it in her 60s. She did four attempts and on the fifth attempt at the age of 64, she made it. Do you not find that to be the most extraordinary thing? I just can hardly believe it. She must have had a motor inside of her that just wouldn't stop. The motor mother is still going, fully fueled. She is a force and she's still just as sort of driven. You know, she's talking about her routine of working out. She's constantly moving. She works out all the time. She has two days a week that are very, very rigorous workouts, mom. She does a thousand burpees on Tuesdays and Fridays. But you've always been like that. Don't you always try to move every day, mom, pretty much? Oh, yeah, but not not with that rigor.

No, I know, but I mean, one has to, but here you are 91 years old. That's, I'm sure, doing no small part to the fact that you have always moved your body. Oh, I think it's made a big difference. And actually, my generation, we, unlike our parents, have moved. And, you know, we don't work out the way you kids do, but we worked out. And when you think about the eight, my, my parents, when they were grandparents, and what they, they sort of just quit, quit doing, they just sat. Yeah.

And if you're set too long, you know, you get stiff and you get, and you get dizzy when you get up and all that kind of stuff. Right. And I have always had a pride of my body that my body would be strong. Mm-hmm. And it's, and it has not disappointed you. No, yeah. Hey, listen, I want to ask you a question. What has surprised you, Mom, about your own body as you've gotten older?

What has surprised me is that it's wrinkled. I always saw other people with wrinkles. And there was one time I was doing in yoga and I was doing sort of a shoulder stand or I can't quite do a shoulder stand anymore. But you know, you did legs up in the end. Yeah. And my calves were wrinkled. my calves. You hear what I'm saying?

Yeah, I hear you, Mom. I hear you. And when I looked at that, I mean, I was like, what is cool? Is this? I thought, I've got to get a kind of cream. I got to get rid of this. And then I realized, well, that's just happening. And so the wrinkles, why would that surprise me?

I mean, Timi, why that would surprise me, but it surprises me. Well, I'm going to tell you something that I notice about myself, which is the same thing. Like when I'm seeing wrinkles now in my arms and also in my legs, but particularly in my arms. And it definitely surprises me, but it's also familiar to me because I think it reminds me of the women in my family like you and my grandma. And I'm looking at my arms. I'm going to oh, God, look at that. It looks like an old lady, but I know it. You know what I mean? So we paid the road for you. You did.

It's true. And one time I took some school kids to an old people's home and we had a little meeting of some kind that used to have like, they were called old people's homes or awful names like that, home for the incurable. Oh, Lord. I took some kids just to a nursing home. And we're driving back to school and they said to me, oh, they all have wrinkles. And I said, yeah, they have wrinkles. And then the one kid said, does it hurt?

Oh. Isn't that dear? Deer. And here I was thinking I was younger than springtime. I'm driving the car. And they, yeah, they have wrinkles. Like your hands. Like my hands, I said, you're kidding me.

No way. There's no way. Perfect. Oh, my God. So they saw my hands. And there was one. that Gracie, I was sitting with a friend. Who's your granddaughter, Gracie?

Yes. And so we were having lunch. And we were talking about brains. And she had seen a picture of brains. And then she said, and they're all wrinkled. And then she looked over it at us. She said, like you two. Incredible.

It's so wonderful when you can just say things out. You know, and they're not. And you know that they're genuine. They're not meant to hurt you. They're meant to describe what you see. Yeah, completely. Yeah, they're pure. Yeah.

They're pure of heart is what they are. Yeah. Coming from little kids. Yes, absolutely. All right, Mama, I'm going to say goodbye to you. I love you. I love you, sweetheart. So keep in touch and call me often.

I will. I'll call you even later today. Okay. I love you. Bye. Bye. Bye. There's more wiser than me with Lemonada Premium.

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and we're on Facebook at Wiser than Me podcast. We're also on Substack at wiser than me. Substack.com. Wiser than me is a production of Lemonada Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louis-Dreyfus. The show is produced by Chrissy Pease and Oha Lopez. Brad Hall is a consulting producer. Rachel Neal is consulting senior editor and our SVP of weekly content and production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer, and me. The show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with engineering help from James Sparber, and our music was written by Henry Hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlegel and, of course, my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser than me wherever you get your podcasts. And if there's an old lady in your life, listen up.