Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus - Julia Gets Wise with Fran Lebowitz

Episode Date: April 18, 2023

In this edition of Wiser Than Me, Julia gets schooled by 72-year-old writer and legendary New York City resident Fran Lebowitz. This is an interview for the ages – literally. Fran gives Julia her best advice for plotting revenge, being a bad girlfriend, and avoiding modern technology at all costs. Plus, Fran shares what she learned about forgiveness from her late friend Toni Morrison. And Julia and her mom Judith reminisce about how Julia’s sense of humor got her in trouble in high school.   Follow Julia on Instagram and Twitter @officialjld. You can find out more about our show @lemonadamedia on all social platforms.   Joining Lemonada Premium is a great way to support our show and get bonus content. Subscribe today at bit.ly/lemonadapremium.    Wiser Than Me is brought to you by Hairstory. Use code WISER at checkout for 20% off your purchase, and Hairstory will donate 10% of proceeds from this code to water preservation efforts.    Wiser Than Me is brought to you by Evereve. Check out Evereve’s latest curated styles and get 20% off your first online order when you use code WISER.   Click this link for a list of all Wiser Than Me sponsors and discount codes: https://lemonadamedia.com/sponsors/.    For additional resources, information, and a transcript of the episode, visit lemonadamedia.com.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I was born in Manhattan in the middle of a snowstorm at New York Hospital on a Friday, Friday the 13th, January 13th, 1961, and the doctors kept saying to my mom, oh, don't worry, don't worry, she won't be born on Friday the 13th. And my mom said, oh, yes, she will, she's coming. And she was right. I was born on Friday the 13th, like a 10, 30 at night, which I have always really liked. It's a lucky 13.

My earliest memory as a child, I think, I was probably about three, was going to Bonwitt Teller, the now defunct Bonwitt Teller, the department store, to go shopping for a pillow. I remember this vividly choosing it. It had a pink ribbon design, and oh, God, I love that pillow for many years afterwards. The old deco, Bonwitt and Teller building got knocked down, they put up that shitty awful Trump tower on the site on Fifth Avenue.

Such a shame. It was a gorgeous architectural masterpiece, a real beauty of a building. I have very cozy memories of going on the cross-town bus with my mother in the rain and the snow and leaning up against her and sitting on her lap and watching buildings go by. We lived at 96 and parked during the big New York blackout of 1965. I'm pretty sure. And I remember so clearly that my step-dad, because I don't think they were married yet, maybe he was my mom's boyfriend then, I don't know.

But he had to walk up all the stairs of our apartment building because the elevator couldn't work. And I thought he was like a superhero, you know, coming to save us up the stairs, which he was. The stairs in the building where we lived on 96th and park had linoleum floors in the stairwells, you know, like on the stairs old school linoleum. It is a very specific smell to it. It's sort of musty, it's sort of plasticky. But to me, this smell is incredibly evocative, and it really catapults me back to that early time in my life, which was very happy.

I have a doctor in Los Angeles, an ear nose and throat doctor in Beverly Hills, and whenever I go to him, I don't take the elevator, I take the stairs in his building because it's an old building, and his stairs have the same floors, and the stairwell smells exactly the same as my home back in New York in 1965.

I left New York when I was young, I was seven or eight, and we traveled because my stepdad was a surgeon for Project Hope, a hospital ship that went all over the world. And when we finally came back to the US, we wound up in Washington, DC, which is a beautiful city. But my actual father was living in New York, and of course, I longed to see him. And so I spent the rest of my youth going back and forth from DC to Manhattan on the Eastern

airline shuttle. I will admit that ever since we left New York, when I was young, I've had a very, very deep yearning to get back to New York. And I've had that yearning kind of all my life, even though I lived there for periods of time, like back when I was doing satirant live and so on. I went to college in Chicago,

and I've happily raised my family in California, but I still have an unsettled sort of geographical self. The truth is I love Manhattan, warts and all. It's in my bones. So last year my friends Carol Halpen and Jerry Seinfeld both sent me a photo of this, and I get a little bit choked up when I think about it, to be honest. But there are these kiosks with screens and revolving signs at the bus stops in New York now. And the city put up on my birthday, I guess a couple of years in a row, they put up something like, on this day, January 13th, actress Julia Louis,

Drifus was born in Manhattan, a true Manhattan night. God, that makes me feel really good. I mean, this is my origin story, the city, this New York. And today, we are talking to the ultimate New Yorker, Fran Leibowitz. I'm Julia Louis-Dryvus and this is Wiser than me, a show where each week I get schooled by women who are wise of me. You know when I first got into this podcast game like a month or two ago at this point, there were a couple of unbelievably smart women that I was dying to get to talk to and

top of the list was and is Fran Lieblitz, you know, because she's Fran Liebowitz. That's her job. She's Liebowitz's thing. She's what they used to call a wit, somebody who is smart as hell, super quick, sardonic, and kind of above it all in a very cool way. But having a conversation with Fran Liebowitz, famously cranky, brilliant, witty, Fran Liebowitz, that could be a little intimidating, right? So I studied up on my Fran Liebowitz. I rewatched the Martin Scorsese documentaries about her both of them. And as I read more and more of her work in the Village Voice interview magazine, her two

fabulous satirical books, Metropolitan Life, and social studies, and listened to a ton of her interviews and appearances, I saw that her insight is even more deep, more detailed and more nuanced than I'd imagined and I just I'm so excited to talk to her. From the day she got expelled from high school to this very minute, she's always been much wiser than me. Welcome, Fran Leblitz. Thank you very much. Hey Fran, how old are you? If I may ask? You may ask, I'm 72. And how old do you feel? 82. Some days maybe 92. And why do you feel 82? I'm old at heart. Do you like getting old? No, it's horrible. Really? Is there anything good about it? Well, there's nothing good enough about it. Okay, the good thing about it is that, uh, well,

I would say this up until COVID, which I had never thought about, you know everything, but which I mean, nothing has happened that has been as some way happened before. Right. So until COVID, every single thing that happened reminded me of something else that happened. But COVID I one thing I never thought about was what if there's a plague? Right. So that taught me that something could happen even to an old person that never happened before. Yeah. So I want to start by asking you about something. I believe your mom said to you Which is that boys don't like funny girls. Is that something she really said to you?

Actually, to hold me up. People very often ask me, did your parents want you to be a writer? Did they object to being a writer? They didn't want me to be a writer. They didn't object to being a writer. They didn't care at all. They never paid attention to it. Okay.

I've explored in 1950, all right. What girls wanted to do was have no interest to anyone. I mean, so that I would say I'm going to be a writer and no one even looked up. What did your parents want you to be? A wife. They wanted me to be a wife. They expected me to be a wife, you know, so that was their interest. When you started to be, I don't like 12 years old, whatever age it was, and my mother, and not just my mother, all mothers of all 12-year-old girls in 1962 told them the same thing. You know, here's what you should do. This is what boys like.

This is what boys don't like. And my mother would always say, don't be funny around boys. Boys don't like funny girls. Now first of all, my mother was wrong. And second of all, it turned out I don't care. So in my junior high school, the only school ever graduated from was from the ninth grade. They gave awards at the end of the year. And I received this award that was called the Class Whit Award. Now I have to, you know, emphasize that other people in my ninth grade class were not us go wild. So it wasn't really

a rough field, but I was afraid to bring this thing home because I thought my mother would be angry at me. Oh. Be as clearly I had been being funny around boys. You know, I will say though, I think that your mother was partially right because I do think in my experience

there is a kind of strength and a power to being funny. And certain people find that intimidating, particularly men. That's what I think. I'm sure that is true. Yeah. But there are enough boys who are not like that, that, you know, if I had cared whether boys like me or not, which I already didn't then. But, you know, I, you know, I might have modulated my behavior. but yeah, you're definitely right. There's definitely boys like that. And many of them are actually grown men, although they are actually boys, as you know, yes. And will never be men. Never. You went to an all girls private school. Is that correct? Briefly, yes. I mean, I went

to bubble school my whole life and then the public school told my my parents So percent of my is when you say a teacher or a principal told you parents you mean your mother Because our fathers never got near a school. No, my father when I was child didn't know what great I was it so not and he was it was a lovely man, but that was all man at the time so And he was a lovely man, but that was all men at the time. So if you expect her to go to college, she could not stay. And the squad was failing everything.

So at great financial sacrifice, my parents didn't have any money. They sent me to this. Yes, it was in all girls, a Piscopalian school, deservedly small and unknown. And I left it there like a little more than a year and then I got expelled. And people say, and what did you do as if I, you know, did something, you know, like, you know, set fires to the school. As far as I know, I did nothing. You know, the headmaster sent a letter to my parents saying she is a very bad influence on the other girls. And she is usurping my power.

And she has to be gone. So in retrospect, which of course is like 50 years later more, you know, I think that probably I was expelled for what my mother used to call that look on your face. Right. So I thought it was being polite. I always think, sometimes people say, why are you glaring? And I think I'm smiling. So it must be just emanates from me. Did you like being at an all-girl school for the one year you were there? You mean did I like the fact that it was all girls? Yeah.

I wouldn't mind if the whole world was all girls. Be a better world. So after school, you moved to New York and you cleaned houses. You wrote pornography, you drove a cab. You know, by the way, I have a friend who I used to work with on Seinfeld, writer, and he wrote pornography to make a living. And he had to excuse himself with some frequency to relieve himself. Really?

I had to excuse myself to laugh. Okay. That is a difference between men and women. Okay, I found it to be actually pretty difficult to do. In fact, I enlisted so many people to help me do it that I ended up making like $10. Yeah, but I did publish this book under the name of the headmaster

who threw me out of high school. That's just brilliant. You've stated many times, you're suffering from a famous case of writer's block. What's holding you back? It's your anxiety, it's your perfectionism. Is that the correct thing to say? What do you think?

I would say that a lot of it is just simple swath. You know, I mean, I'm incredibly lazy. Writing is very hard. I mean, I find it very hard. It's my belief that all writers, almost almost all writers who find writing very pleasurable and delightful are bad writers. When people say, I love to write, I always think you must be a horrible writer. So, you know, a lot of it's sad. And probably what it is is what my editor, who when I introduce him to people as my editor, always says easiest job in town, um, my editor, um, was described it to me as your excessive reference for the

written word. And I think that's also what you just described as perfectionism. Yeah. Yeah. I get it. What about therapy? Have you ever been been in therapy? When I was in high school, I was the school sent me to it. Oh, so, and then I was briefly when I was in my 20s, and that's it. And truthfully, I mean, lots of people say, you should go to my therapist. I've been going to him for 40 years. I was thinking, would you tell me you should go to my doctor? I have this on this. And he's been treating it for 40 years. I wish to tell you, go to someplace where they're going to my doctor. I have this onus and he's been treating it for 40 years. I'm I wish to tell you, go someplace where they're going to cure it.

So additionally, I know this doesn't sound even possible, but truthfully, I'm not that interested in myself. You know, I lost that kind of issues myself, probably in my 20s. I really believe, unless you're nuts, there comes a point where you can't keep thinking about the same person all the time. Yeah, right. Especially yourself. Especially myself. I'm sure there's all kinds of reasons why I do things that are perhaps not a good idea for me, and perhaps someone could fight out why, but I don't really care.

I mean, it's not like I'm committing crimes, it's not like I'm holding a bangans. So the things that I'm doing that are probably harmful. They're harmful to me. Yeah. What are the things you're doing that are harmful to you? Smoking, no doubt. Oh, smoking. Yeah. But smoking, people's ideas about smoking are kind of... People, general idea about smoking is that it is a terrible character flaw.

But really what it is, it's an addiction. That's what it is. I started smoking I was 12 and I mean by the time I was 12 I have I smoked a pack a day. So it's a very deep-seated addition. Oh my god. I actually do not feel equal to quitting. I could never do it. You've never tried to quit. You've never even tried. Never. Unbelievable. I never tried, you know, to get into the Olympics, either. There's certain things I know I could not do. I don't try them. But you don't drink, right? No, I stopped drinking when I was 19. When I was 19, I stopped drinking and taking drugs because I was by that point so sick I cannot tell you. And because I've come to believe

that at births, you know, we're kind of granted, you know, a lifetime ability to drink and take drugs and you can do it all between 21 and 80 or between 15 and 19. I did between 15 and 19 and that's a year to stop. And you just got sick from being? I felt horrible. I took a lot of speed, I took cocaine and it makes you feel horrible. So I mean, I really felt horrible and a doctor a lot of speed. I took cocaine and it makes you feel horrible. So, I mean, I really felt horrible and a doctor told me, you are never going to live to be 30. Now, at the time since I was 19, I thought, well, who wants to live to be that old? Right.

But, you know, I stopped and I'm, I'm never of them. And it wasn't very hard for me. So, I'm not, I'm not saying I did this, you know, incredible thing. It just wasn't very hard because I ran away. It felt better. What about getting older in New York? What's that experience like? I think it's better. I mean, I think New York's a better place to be.

Yeah, I agree with that. There's all kinds of things that you don't have to do in New York, that you have to do in the suburbs. I guess also in rural places where I don't know what you do there. Even if you're young, but I think it's a better place because first of all, there's tons and tons of services, you know, you gotta have everything delivered. There's tons and tons of people.

I can't believe people leave New York to get old and for months. It seems ridiculous, don't you know that? And for a month, you know, first of all, they're no dormant. You know, dormant are very good for all people. They're good for all people, I think. But, you know, they're no dormant. You know, dormant are very good for all people. They're good for all people, I think. But, you know, they're no dormant of them.

They're no dormant in these rural places. I think it's a better place to be old. I think it's a better place to be young. Yeah. I really think that's a big divide in the world. And I travel quite a bit. It's between people who like cities and people who like cities. You know, I was born in New York.

And I lived there until I was like eight, then we moved away, but I went back and forth and actually finally we bought a place again in New York about which I'm very happy. But I will say the experience of being in the city and the sound of, I think I'm the only person who likes the sound of cars honking in traffic because it reminds me of my youth in a really cozy way

You know and buses the sounds of buses. I love that sound the most relaxing thing I think you could do New York is to take a nap in your living room on your sofa at like six o'clock in the afternoon and sleep to the sounds of other people trapped in cabs. We hear the hockey and the yellow and it's so relaxing you think that's not me. I'm on this lovely sofa. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, it's fantastic. There's more with Fran Leibwitz after this short break. Did you know that the plastic from shampoo results in over 500 million empty plastic bottles every year?

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That's bab. EL use promo code wiser. That's b-a-b-b-e-l.com code wiser. You once said that you're two greatest needs are smoking cigarettes and plotting revenge. And if that's still the case, who are you currently plotting revenge against? You know, this is like, we don't have the time. All right. Oh, come on. Oh, no, We have all the time in the world. Okay. I'll buy the studio the rest of the day.

Go, go. It's a very long list. And the truth is that people always say, it's not satisfying. It's very satisfying. I mean, the times I've had the opportunity to actually execute my plans, I've been incredibly satisfying to me. And I would point out to you that the few things that come to my mind right now, which I'm certainly not going to explain, the person didn't even know it. That it was me,

you know, but I always know, like, really, you did this. Okay. You know, there's, there's almost always a way to get back at the person. And people, of course, this is something incredibly discouraged in the culture now because forgiveness is one of the primary things people are supposed to practice now. And I think like this is, there's nothing more alien to me than this. You know, truthfully, you know, what is forgiveness is actually Christianity. You know, I mean, everyone was Jewish, then Christ came. Christ said, I mean, everyone was Jewish. Then Christ came. Christ said, I'll forgive you. 99% of people said, Oh, you're our guy. Think of the people who didn't. Those are my attitudes. Okay. They're the ones who said, Oh, no,

we don't want to be for them. And we're not going to forgive anyone. So, you know, the Jewish God is a judge. And the Christian God is a forgiving martyr. So, that is not me. And I don't forgive people. And I am like an incredible grudge holder I have to say. I know it's not a delightful trait, but it is truthfully my trait. I'm assuming that you don't allow these grudges to eat away at you, right? This is the problem, of course, with the grudge.

No, this is what people say. People say, you know, that that is a painful to you to do that, you know, that, you know, that, I actually don't find a painful at all. And so, you know, I find it, to me, it is the same thing as having standards. Uh huh. I feel that it's, you know, it's, it's, it's an act of morality.

Wait, you have got to give me an example of somebody who did something wrong. Please. That is never going to happen. Alright, fine. So I also hold wedges against people that I don't know at all. Alright, and then I'm not going to have any opportunity. So there are politicians who are dead that I'm still angry at. Alright, it's not that I had an opportunity to do something to the politicians and I'm not

talking about violent things at all. But if your name comes up, I'll think, yeah, I hated that guy. I still hate that guy. We'll see if I can come out of this way. Can you give me a tip on getting revenge? Do you have any tips for getting revenge? You know, well, sometimes someone does something. And what I think is, are you at your mind? Do you not realize that I know so and so, and I know you want this thing from this person, and you're not going to get it. Okay, so that would be a good example. And I, you know, I don't know you at all. I believe met you, but I am guessing that that would work for you too. Yeah, you know, what else you might want to guess that I've done the same thing. Yeah, you know what else you might want to guess that I've done the same thing. And I too will not share with you the circumstances of the, shall I say, the revenge work around, right?

Right. Sometimes I like this something that happened like 25 years ago. And I recently saw this guy from a distance and I thought I had a restri-my stuff. I'm saying, teach you ever wonder why you didn't get that fellowship. Yeah, that's very good. But what about having friends? You said that you've had a lot of friends who are older than you because you wanted to learn from them. But then the bad news is that when you're in your 40s, they died from old age. It's true. I mean, there's, I mean, one reason I had a lot of friends on the

me is because when I came to New York, most people in my age that I would know were in school still. All the people that are around were, you know, older than me. But I always, you know, I would say preferred the company of older people because they knew more than me. Why would I want to be around people who know less? Right. You know, so they knew where they made it. It is true that by the time I was even in my 30s, some of my friends were diagnosed with an old age. Wow. What did they know more than you at that point? Everything. Think about it. I mean, I don't know how old you are, but you know.

I'm 62. Okay. You know more than someone who's 20. So I don't care who's a 22 year old is. You may not know more about everything. The 22 year old may be some sort of side different genius, but in general, you know, yeah. And so it's just more interesting to be around people who know more than you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. God, I wish everybody felt that way. So you have a very well documented friendship with Tony Morrison. We're no more than everybody. I bet losing Tony Morrison. What's that grief like? Has it been gutting?

You know, there's no person like I know tons of people who died obviously. Yeah. And you know, you miss like all the people you cared for that died. I've never in my life missed anyone like I missed Tony. Ever. Why is this? Well, I mean, first of all, I would say that I talked to her at least, you know, if I didn't see her,

because we weren't always in the same place. You know, I cut her at least like five or six times a week for like an hour on the phone. So she was such a constant presence in my life. And this is for like, over more than 40 years. But also because, you know, I've known, you know, tons and tons of smart people. But I've only ever known one wise person in that was Tony. So, you know, isn't just a Tony was very smart.

Everyone was very smart. So when COVID happened, my editor, who was also a Tony's editor, called me and we were talking about COVID like everyone was talking about it. And I said, don't you miss Tony more than ever? And he said, yes. And I said, it's because Tony would know how to think about this. Because what I didn't know when COVID happened was how to think about it. I had no way to think about it. I knew how I felt about it. Oh, I had no way to think about it. I knew I felt about it. But unlike most of my fellow Americans,

I know the difference between thinking feel. People constantly say, I think this, I think that, and I'm thinking, you think nothing. These are feelings, not thoughts. So I thought, Tony, even though Tony, even Tony wasn't old enough to have lived through the flood epidemic of 1918, I would have even though Tony even Tony wasn't old enough to have lived through the you know flood pandemic of 1918 I would have said Tony. What do you think?

How to think about this and she would have known or she would have said I don't know I'm thinking about it But she would have had an answer, you know any person that you love when you when they die, you know, you miss them and That person in your emotions is irreplaceable. But Tony was not only irreplaceable. She's just irreplaceable in the world, not just in my emotions. And the world is worse off because she's not here. Not just Fran is worse off, her friends are worse off. When I see people listen to her, I mean, I don't mean they actually did what she said, but she was recognized as being someone you ought to listen to.

And what's the wisest if you can say what's the wisest thing she told you? Well, for instance, Tony was a very forgiving person. Tony was an extremely forgiving person. To the extent that if you, when you read her, you see that even her villainous characters fee portrays empathetically. And no matter, you know, they'd be the world's worst people. And some of these people are in her books, see the characters, but even in actual real life, many of the world's worst people, you know, she would very often say, yes, but like, not me. Me is like that guy said the worst person. How do you guys meet? You know, she would very often say yes, but like not me. Me is like that guy's the worst person. How do you guys meet?

You know, people very often ask me how I meet people. I usually don't know like especially Marty. People ask us neither one of us know how we met. Right. Or where we met. I exactly remember when and where I met Tony. And that is because there either used to be or still is something called like the American Academy of Poets.

And they used to run, or maybe they still do a reading series at the library, McDonnell Library, which I know was not there any longer. They had this reading series and they sent me a letter, like I always say to people who are young, a letter, a piece of paper in the man, a factual letter. And the letter said, we have this reading series and we would like to invite you to read such a such a such a date And I remember that it was 1978. All right, that's this happened. It was my first book So the guy put his phone number I called him up on a phone landline and

I said yes, I'd like to do this and he said all right We always have two people two writers reading together. Do you know who Tony Morrison is? She had published books, but she was not very well known. She was still working at Random House as an editor because she wasn't making enough money from her books. Okay. So, uh, a shit to kids. So I said, yes, I don't. He said, do you like her writing? I said, oh, I love her writing.

He said, well, we thought you should read together. I said, that's ridiculous. He said, why do you say that? I said, we're two different. Yeah. It's a bizarre combination. He said, well, we think it's a good combination. Do you object to it? I said, no, not at all. It just seems like just, you know, in Congress. Yes. And by the way, trying to be a great combination, when it was over, Tony said, this is a great combination. Let's go on the road together, which we did not do, but we instantly became friends.

I mean, I've never had a friendship instant. Like, you know, that's like a romance you have to instantly, not a friendship. Yeah, yeah. And so I know exactly when it was in 1978. That's a great story. I love that. What qualifies someone to be your friend?

I'm asking this question because actually, I would really like to be your friend. I mean, you know, it's not that hard. Well, to me, you know, a very important thing. First of all, I have to say that to me, the most important relationships are friendships. I know everyone thinks it's, you know, your spouse, you know, I don't agree.

And that's why I don't have a spouse. It's certainly, you know, everyone thinks it's your family. And when people say this, I think like, I don't, I don't understand, you know, families to me are like generally speaking, uh, factories for the manufacturer of insanity. Friendships are the only relationships we choose. Yeah. They're the only relationships we really choose. We don't choose our family, obviously. People think you choose romantic partners. You don't.

That is, oh, that's the kind of chemical response to someone. By the time I was 22, why knew that? I would like to feel myself very attracted to someone. I would know that person was horrible, and I would think this is going to be a nightmare, and I don't care. So, that's how strong that desire is, you know, but it's not a choice, you know. So to me a choice is you're gonna menu. I love to look at many of these because it's the only time I know I can have whatever I want.

And that's true friends. So to me, friends, it's very important. There's a number of qualities. First of all, they have to have a sense of humor by which I mean, they don't have to be funny. Having a great sense of humor doesn't mean you're funny. It means you know, things are funny. That's right.

You know, even with babies, I could tell this, whenever people show me the new baby, like I would, people say, show a friend or a baby because Fred can tell if the baby's smart. You know, I look at the baby, I look at the baby's eyes, and you can see it's a baby smart because you see if the baby has sense of humor. So a sense of humor means that, a sense of humor, a sense that things are funny. Yes.

So that's very important. And loyalty is very important. It's really important. I have to say that I was a fantastic family member, although this was not returned. I am a horrible girlfriend in the world who worst, but I'm a fantastic friend. I'm incredibly loyal. Incredibly loyal. What does that loyalty look like?

It means that I always defend that person. I never don't defend them. I don't care who the person is in any way. Not just attacking them, but in any way expressing anything but adoration for my tract. No, it means you help them. They help you. You know, it means that even if you know they're wrong, you can tell them they're wrong, but you don't tell other people. Mm hmm. And when you tell them they're wrong, do you do it gingerly and gently? No, sometimes I'm yelling. Sometimes they say,

no, you're absolutely wrong. No, I'm not always gingerly and gently. I guess I knew the answer that before you gave it. No. And how are you? But what do you mean you're a terrible girlfriend? Let me put you this way. I have a car that I bought in 1978. It is the only monologue I'm sure is usable in my life. That is because I love for car. And because I'm never bored by the car. And every time I see the car, I think, what a beautiful car. And I have a picture of my car, my refrigerator, where other people would have a human. And so I absolutely, I always cheat.

I always, you know, it's out of the question that I won't. Right? I don't want to live with anyone. I live by myself since I was like 19 years old. And that isn't a credible sheet and for less being letting you assure you. I don't want to live with anyone. I don't want to hear any footsteps that I don't know are coming in. There's a key to my apartment.

It's my key. Uh-huh. I'm not a sherry type. You might be shocked to hear. But I mean, like has there been a circumstance in which you say you cheat? So were there times in your life where you thought I'm not going to cheat this time? No. Or no, you always knew it.

Yeah, I always knew it. I also always say it. Uh huh. But of course, no one believes it. Yeah. They think well, not me. Like I had in my whole life, you know, there have been zillions because I'm old. One girlfriend that everyone loved, because she was perfect.

And someone said to me, why did you break up with her? And I said, because she was too good for me. And I said, she was too good for me. What does that mean? She was a good-hearted person. Is that what you mean? She was a good-hearted person, but she was just perfect, like, great-looking, great person, you know, for everything

perfect, but it was intolerable to her that I was not faithful. And I couldn't do it. And she was, she was too good for me. This is just the right way to say it, believe me. She's a better person. Is there a certain type that you like that you're attracted to, like younger women or no, no, no, everyone's younger than me now. Come on. So I mean, no, no, no, no, everyone's young of them. I mean, now come on. So I mean, yes, everyone is young, but they're fake. But not very young. No, and I never did. And I'd not say lucky thing. I said, you know, because otherwise, you know,

you have a lot of problems. Yeah, sexual attraction, you know, is something in you. I mean, who you're such a attraction to? It's not something you can, you know, build in yourself or it's not something you can change in you. I mean, who you're such a attractor do. It's not something you can, you know, build in yourself or it's not something you can change in yourself. And so, you know, if you have, you know, kind of erotic taste that are not criminal, you're lucky. Has your sexuality morph as you've gotten older? I mean, when I was young, I thought about sex all the time, like, 24 hours a day, you know, it's the reason I would let me prove this way. I did. Also, New York in the 70s was insane.

Insane. So, you know, and when I got to New York, I thought I was like, I can't believe this is like a dream. Yeah. I never left my apartment, like even to buy a pack of cigarettes, you know, without thinking, I'm going to see someone and you do, you know, especially if you're looking all the time. Right. No one in my age is like that if they are, they're nuts. Do you consider yourself a vain person? Yes. Uh-huh. It's fine to be a vain person. I mean, yeah, it's why I made like, I'm not hurting anyone by being vain. I mean, there's a limit to my vanity, you know, uh, for instance, did, after I had this eye surgery, which was medical, not cosmetic, I was

doing a television show, a Barcelona, and the makeup artist there said, now we're going to go to the makeup. I said, no, I said, no makeup. I didn't want to go near my eyes. So I said, no makeup. I said, I just had eye surgery and he looked at me where I could see on his face. You know, I've had the worst eye surgery I've ever seen

in my entire life. So I said, so I saw his face and I said, no, no, no, no. Not, not kind of eye surgery, actual medical eye surgery. And I could tell like, he didn didn't know what I was talking about He was like 25. He said, you know, you would look better with makeup. I said, I know that I Know makeup works. I am well aware. I would look better But I would rather be able to look than to look better because I did it was just I don't want to am we getting your my eyes at all So I'm not the end to the point of having had

cosmetic surgery, which I would never do. I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I don't think it's a moral issue, but I hate any medical procedures and no one is putting a knife on me unless my other choice is not seeing or dying. So I'm one of the few people I know around my age who has not had that. you know, I don't

object to it, but I'm not, I haven't had it, you know, I would rather like someone's kid said to me, the son of a friend of mine said, why do people have plastic surgery? So I said, because otherwise you look like me. I said, you know, you're not that this kid is very good looking. I said, you know, who you should look just like you? Your father. And he was like, I could see he was appalled. I said, well, where's my brother? He looked just like you. Ah!

I'm ready. You're going to look just like your father. I said, I should, and that is something that happens to everybody. You know that your eyes, this is the thing with the makeup artist reminds me of when, after I gave birth to one of my kids and I was walking, it was about like a month later and I'm walking down the street somewhere

and I run into a woman who I haven't seen in a while and she goes, oh my God, Julia, I'm so glad to see you. That was so nice to see you too. She goes, oh, when are you do? It was gutting. I have to say, that was a gutting experience. But do you, do you, you color your hair, correct? Yes, of course. I had my first white hair in high school. I did too. My mother sat at the family and people go gray and by the age of 13.

Right. So I started coloring my hair in my early 30s. And so, yeah, forever. And it isn't that I think people think that it's not colored. Obviously it is But you know first of all I'm very pale my skin, you know, it's very white You know, I just feel like it just like I look like a ghost with it

I don't want it and just to read you know, I'm not trying to trick you to thinking no one my age has no great hair Okay, no one right so you know if the upside of being a woman in my opinion, which are not many, as you know, is that women are supposed to look artificial. And this way I hate men calling their hair. I think it looks ridiculous. It does. It always looks orange. And also like in the place where I go to get my hair card, you there are men totally unemarrished, You know, and something I look over and I think, you have three hairs. What difference does it make? Is all the power and money in the world none of you?

You also can have gray hair. Yeah, you're right, you're totally right. We have to take a really quick break. My conversation with Fran Liebowitz continues in just a bit. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. The conversations we have on this show, Wiser than May, are all about deepening our understanding of ourselves. Life is messy, uncertain, and exciting, and it pays off to have a lot of tools in your tool belt. Our sponsor BetterHelp offers one of those tools, accessible therapy.

They directly connect you with a licensed therapist who can take you on an ongoing journey of self-discovery. Therapy is helps me and millions of others find a better way to relate to ourselves and the world around us. BetterHelp offers both individual therapy and therapy for couples, and you can get matched to a therapist to support a wide range of issues, with the same professionalism you'd expect from an in-office therapist. If you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. It is entirely online and designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule.

Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists any time for no additional charge. Discover your potential with better help. Visit betterhelp.com-wiseer today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp-hpe.com slash wiser. I think sometimes women feel pressure to change themselves to fit in. Even the funny self-actualized women we've interviewed on this show. But each one harnessed her uniqueness, found her voice, and dared to stand out. And standing out isn't always easy for

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Which is actually an answering machine. The reason it's modern. It's the actual machine. Yes. The reason it's modern is because it's not the one with the tapes. Okay. The original answering machines have like actual tapes in it. You know, I have the cutting edge version, which is probably like 35 years old. And it has a

voice, you know, so that if you call me a voice, says, you know, it's, I mean, my voice, but you record on it, but there's no tapes in it. So it's some kind of computer thing. And, you know, it says, you know, this is the number, you know, Legion, they were never going to call you back. And then the machine itself says, when you play it back, you know, it gives you the date and the time of the call. When I first got this, my mother would refer to this as the man who answers your phone. My mother would refer to this as the man who answers your phone. So at first I was saying things like it's not a man, it's a computer thing. And she was so insistent. And by the way, so hopeful that I finally said, yes, he's a man,

mom, and he's not just a man, he's a doctor. And we're living together. Yes, he's the perfect man. And we're living together. Yes, he's the perfect man. So my message says, leave your name and number, and no one does because everyone thinks you can see the number. So especially no one young does. And then it can be days, weeks, months later. I'll see someone and they will exclusively say, you never called me back.

And I always say, you didn't leave your number. And I couldn't guess there's too many possibilities. Let me explain to you, tell the man in your machine to re-record the message to say, it doesn't say what number you're calling from. Please tell me the number. I don't feel I should instruct people to this extent. I do.

Leave your number. If you don't leave your number, I'm not calling you back. It's a relief. To not have to call everyone. All right, fine. Well, then you get away with it. That's fine. What do you think the benefits are of complaining?

It's honest. It's honest. That's right. Exactly. I love to complain. And that is why you get to tell the truth. Yeah. So it's honest.

It depends like there's different ways of complaining. Like to me, you know, there's a certain kind of complaining that is unbearable and I would call that whining. Uh-huh, okay. And so whining is not acceptable. Right. Complaining is fine. Especially if it's justified.

So I believe with myself is always justified. And people, when they complain publicly, it's one thing to complain to your friend. It's another thing to complain publicly. If you complain publicly about certain treatment that you're receiving, you better be sure that you're right. Because otherwise it causes people like me, the good people to become enraged. And then you'll exact revenge. Yes. Well, I don't think I'm going to be able to exact revenge. I'm not Gates, but maybe you can find a way because we're counting on you. It would be impossible because I'm certain that we know no people in common.

I am proud to say. Yeah. Well, maybe you'll have an opportunity at some point. I want to ask you a couple of like little quick questions sort of. Tell me something that you would go back and tell yourself at the age of 21, if you could. Don't buy that first department, you'll want. All of the advice I would give my young self is real estate advice because I have never ever made a correct real estate decision. Okay. And even as I get older and older,

and once I became aware of it, every time I had to make a real estate decision, I would say to myself, Fran, you're very bad at this, be careful. And then I would make a new kind of real estate mistake. So I finally, the only way that I pacified myself was by saying, well, you didn't come to New York when you were a kid to go into the real estate business and you haven't.

Is there anything you'd go back and say yes, too? You mean that I said no, too? Correct. There are apartments. I have friends. I knew it was gonna be. Yes, because I have a friend who, there were two friends, one of them died,

but they bought an apartment that I looked at in 1978. And I said, oh no, I don't want this. And it's like a London million square feet. It was like $130,000, but it was in a neighborhood, which at the time, there was nothing around it. You know, I was like, I said, I'm not gonna live here. If you'll walk like 22 blocks to buy coffee, you know? So I would say that's something I should have said yesterday.

What was the neighborhood? Like East 19th Street. Oh shit. What do you want me to know about aging, even though we're not really that far apart in age? Yeah, we're really far apart. Would you trade? Here's what I would like to tell you.

Please. It gets worse. Oh. It gets worse. Oh, it gets worse. Okay, Tony Morrison was The of course most honest person about aging when she became really old She said to me. I forgot what was wrong with her design and I you know said something about it. She said Fran I'm decaying and you know that's the bad news. What's the good news? Is there no good news? I mean the good news is that there's a lot of people in worst condition, you know, that's the bad news. What's the good news? Is there no good news? I mean, the good news is that there's a lot of people in worst condition, you know, and

you know, that's the good news. There are certain ages that people fear, especially women that are great. For instance, I was not enrolled in press when I turned 50 and my 50s were fantastic. You know, 50s are great for women. I agree. They're not great maybe for actresses, you know. No, I like my 50s were fantastic. You know, 50s are great for women. I agree. They're not great maybe for actresses, you know? No, I like my 50s. You know, 50s are great because, you know,

everything you're over there, you know, you still look fine, you may think you don't, but you do. You're still completely fine, you know? And I thought, like my 50s were really great, you know? And this is one of the reasons, not all the reasons. Why I think the president, we only have one law about the age of the president, which is you have to be over 35. You know, if I was in charge, I would say the president has to be in their 50s.

Because they know enough, they know a lot, they're fine. You know, and they're not 12 to get in the rush. I like my 50s and I got breast cancer in my 50s and I still like my 50s. That's how great they are. Yeah, that's how great they are. Well, it sure has been nice talking with you. Pleasure. And you're very kind to take the time and I hope our paths cross again.

I'm certain they will. I'm certain they will. I'm certain they will too. Thank you very much. Thank you, Fran. Be well. You're dope. Enjoy your cigarette. Bye.

Thanks, bye. Oh my God, that was so much fun. I really wish my mom could have been listening in on this conversation. She would have been laughing her ass off. OK, I've so much to discuss. I'm calling my mom right now. I love.

Hi, how are you? I'm so good. I was so excited for today because I think you interviewed Fran Leibwitz. I did. My God, it was just so much fun to talk to her. At the very end, I asked her, do you have any advice for me about aging? And she goes, yes, it gets worse.

Which is of course true. I mean, it does, but she also said, her mother told her that boys don't like funny girls. And so, of course, for Fran, that wasn't a problem. Because she was like, well, first of all, she says, that's not true. And second of all, that's not a problem for me. Great. But, you know, I was saying to her, you her, I think actually it is true to a certain extent.

And she agreed with me about this. I think there's a certain kind of boy who doesn't like a funny girl. I mean, is that your experience as a person with a sense of humor? Well, I'll tell you what comes with my mind is that when dad was at GW and we had a function and I was going to say a few words, and I mentioned to one of dad's colleagues that I was gonna tell a joke, and he said, oh, don't do that.

And so guess what, I didn't do it. Oh, mom. I know, sad. Well, that is generational. That's generational, because if somebody had said that to me, I would have told multiple jokes. Yeah, yeah, out of vengeance. Yeah, if you always been, don't be free to be funny.

Yeah, I mean, relatively free. You know, sometimes it was inappropriate and I got in trouble for it. Remember when the headmaster of my school told you he was worried about me because I was really being disruptive with making a lot of jokes about the dresses that they had picked for us to wear for our graduation because I went to an all-girls school and we had a choice of one of three white dresses that we had to buy and I was making fun of all three choices and I'm sure that it wasn't my making fun was possibly not very sensitive to the people who had chosen it.

I don't know, but I got in trouble for it. You know, and that school, I think that was an issue right? Any great tradition, yeah. Right. Oh, and the other, I asked her about complaining and the benefits of complaining because of course she sort of, she's built a career on complaints and she said, well, complaining is just telling

the truth. And I thought, oh, that is so perfect because of course it is. And you remember when I had cancer, I started to write down a list of complaints, which were complaints that weren't necessarily, shall we say, what's the word, generous? They were just truthful. And I made a list of complaints, and another complaint I have about my complaint list

is that I can no longer find it in my computer. I have it somewhere in this computer, but I was looking for it in the hopes of finding it because it's a pretty good complaint list. It was very good. I remember the list and we laughed, but it was also a great relief. Yeah, it was a great relief to complain. So she has a love affair with complaining, and I share that with her. I like, I find a good complainer. I love to hang with them. share that with her. I like, I find a good complainer. I love to hang with them. Yes, yes. And I want to remember that that it's not complaining. It's telling the truth. Which is certain truth, you know, it's certain truth right to the bone. And that's worth

its weight. I tell her I'm going to buy that. Yeah, I think that's really good. Well, good on you. Congratulations on this. This is wonderful. That's really good. Yeah. Well, good on you. Congratulations on this. This is wonderful. Love you, Mummy, and talk to you soon, OK? Yeah.

Bye. Bye. Subscribe now in Apple Podcasts. Wiser than me is a production of Lemonade Media created and hosted by me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. The show is produced by Chrissy Peas, Alex McCohen and O'Hall Opez, Brad Hall as a consulting producer. Our senior editor is Tracy Clayton. Rachel Neill is our senior director of new content and our VP of Weekly Production is Steve Nelson.

Executive producers are Stephanie Whittles-Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer, Paula Kaplan, and me. The show is mixed by Kat Yor, and Johnny Vins Evans, and Music by Henry Hall. Special thanks to Charlotte Christmas Cohen, and of course, my mother, Judith Boles. Follow LizerTheMe wherever you get your podcasts, and hey hey if there's an old lady in your life listen up. Hey Wiser than me listeners we want to hear from you by just answering a few questions on our listener survey. You can share feedback about show content you'd like to see in the future and help us think about what brands would serve you best.

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