Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus - Julia Gets Wise with Gina McCarthy

Episode Date: May 16, 2023

In this edition of Wiser Than Me, Julia is joined by 69-year-old environmental advocate Gina McCarthy, the former EPA Administrator and first-ever White House national climate advisor. Gina and Julia share their experiences of being the only woman in the room at work, trying different tactics to get the outcome you want, and going gray surprisingly young. And Julia and her mom Judith contemplate ways to get people personally invested in the climate crisis and discuss Julia and Gina’s plans to go shopping together.   Follow Julia on Instagram and Twitter @officialjld. You can find out more about our show @lemonadamedia on all social platforms.   Joining Lemonada Premium is a great way to support our show and get bonus content. Subscribe today at bit.ly/lemonadapremium.    Wiser Than Me is brought to you by Hairstory. Use code WISER at checkout for 20% off your purchase, and Hairstory will donate 10% of proceeds from this code to water preservation efforts.     Wiser Than Me is brought to you by Evereve. Check out Evereve’s latest curated styles and get 20% off your first online order when you use code WISER.    Click this link for a list of all Wiser Than Me sponsors and discount codes: https://lemonadamedia.com/sponsors/.    For additional resources, information, and a transcript of the episode, visit lemonadamedia.com.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonada. On June 6, 1968, I saw my stepdad, who I call daddy Tom, cry uncontrollably for the first time. Actually, I think really for the only time. It was in the morning, and he was standing up in the bedroom, hugging my mother, and I remember just staring at them. It was pretty terrifying. They had just gotten the news that Robert Kennedy had been assassinated the night before. My parents were huge believers in Bobby Kennedy's ideology and they were completely devastated by his loss.

I was, guess, about seven, so I didn't understand all of the political stuff. Of course, you know, the war and civil rights and social justice. I just saw my dad crying. But I really clocked it. In my family, politics was gigantically emotional. My other father, my biological father, William, whom I call Daddy Will, he had this huge framed black and white photograph of Martin Luther King, Jr. above the fireplace. And just to put this in context, you understand, he was an avid art collector, okay? He had some significant paintings, but in that prime spot of the house, there was just this huge photo of Martin Luther King.

That was the art. That is how meaningful Martin Luther King Jr. was to him. Oh, and also my daddy will was on Nixon's enemies list. Can you believe that? Oh, and also my daddy will was on Nixon's enemies list. Can you believe that? He was so proud of that. For him being an enemy of the soon-to-be-discraced president was a ginormous accomplishment, you know? They printed the enemies list in the Wichita Eagle

and beacon newspaper, and my dad framed it, and he put it up in his office as a badge of honor, a triumph, you know? He's since passed, so now I am the very proud owner of that fabulous artifact. I didn't really think about it as a kid growing up, but of course, I was surrounded by politics in Washington, D.C. obviously.

I mean, I went to a super conservative all-girl school. Wasn't a Christian school or anything, but it felt kind of like that to me as a short, dark curly haired liberal named Griffiths. The place was so Republican. I mean, President Ford's daughter Susan went there. She was wailed in the me, but I remember her secret service agents,

they were in the halls, and she had her senior prom at the White House. God actually come to think of it. The main weed dealer at my high school was, how do I put this? So I don't get sued. She was the daughter of someone from the Justice Department. Yeah. Yeah. Politics was just everywhere for me. The first election that I voted in was Cardivarsus Reagan. So I was a righteous loser from the start. And I still can't shake this emotional political thing. I hear the National Anthem and I get a little choked up. But politics is how we change things in this hugely flawed, wonderful country, democracy,

the right to vote. You know, that is huge. And it's sacred. When my kids were really tiny, there were two tiny to have any idea what the fuck was going on. I would take them with me to the polling place and I'd march them into the booth so they could punch the buttons for me. I don't know, maybe that's illegal, but I did it.

I thought it was important. It was a good message for them. And they thought it was fun. When I started to get famous, it gave me a platform to help shine the spotlight on candidates and issues that I thought were legitimate. And so I started to do that. And I know there's a lot of blowback on celebrities for getting involved in politics,

but my philosophy on that is this. I'm a citizen of the United States. I love this country. I'm allowed to express my views, and I never claim to be an expert on any issue. But if people want to listen to me, I'm delighted to use that moment to bring attention to the people who deserve to be heard. And when it comes to the environment and the climate crisis, boy, does Gina McCarthy

deserve to be heard. So today, I'm talking to Gina McCarthy. I'm Julia Louis-Dryfus. This is Wiser than me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are Wiser than me. Holy hell, you guys today is gonna blow your goddamn minds. You know, I really do believe that the climate crisis is the elephant in every room. It's a social justice issue, it's a national security issue, it's a racial issue, it's an economic issue, it is the ticking time bomb that could in fact destroy mankind.

And our guest, Gina McCarthy, is out there trying to diffuse that fucking time bomb every day. She's like the Maghiver of climate. She's fought inside the system serving in both Republican and Democratic administrations. I mean, give me a break. How hard is that? We need to find out about that. And I can't even list all the shit she's done for the environment, but here are some

greatest hits. She was head of the EPA in the Obama administration. She was the first ever national climate adviser in the Biden administration. She ran the Natural Resources Defense Council, the folks who sue the government's ass, and who sue climate criminals, and who win. She's had to testify in front of the worst climate deniers in Congress, can't wait to hear about that.

And somehow, she just keeps on fighting, in spite of impossible odds, and under the threat of global Extinction for fuck's sake. She's controversial. She's powerful. She's smart as a whip. She's a wife She's a mother and she's got the best Boston accent ever and she's definitely wiser than me Gina I am so happy to get to talk to you today Gina McCarthy Truly what an introduction. I'm really nervous now. How am I going to live up to all that? Yeah, we can just end the interview now if you'd like.

It would definitely be to my benefit, but we'll risk it anyways and go ahead. So before we start talking, first of all, are you comfortable if I say you're real age? Are you cool with that? Of course, yeah. All right, so you just turned 69, right? That's right.

And how old do you feel, Gina? On the inside, how do you feel, age wise? I would say somewhere around 32. I still think I probably am somewhere like that until I look in the mirror, of course, but I can fool myself for long periods of time. We can all say you're 32. If you want, I'll ask you again.

What's your real age? I'm 32. All right, so listen, here's my first question. Do you consider yourself a politician? No, not at all. Why? I think there's a big difference between a big key politician and somebody that is in politics, small and politics small p, you know,

I've worked in government my entire life. So I've been surrounded in working for people who are elected. And I like policy. I like the give and take of making decisions based on real facts and science and trying to move those things forward. I don't like, you know, the scrappiness of the whole thing when you're in the big politics and Lord knows, I would hate going around shaking hands and doing all that kind of stuff all the time, if you two to four years.

It just seems miserable to me that you're running more than you're serving, you know? I wouldn't like that at all. Speaking for myself as somebody who's been the only woman in the room more times than I care to admit, I mean whether it's in a writer's room or whether it's you know on TV and a cast, whatever, I know you've had similar experience yourself. So let's talk about that. What's that been like for you if that's been your experience? In a number of ways that that has been, it's certainly gotten better over time, but honestly

I talk to a lot of young women about that now, because I watch them how they behave in a meeting. And really, over time, I think you just learn that you sit forward and you speak up. You know? So if you speak up and people don't like it, I speak up again if I think something still needs to be said. But it's gotten better. I mean, I

don't think it's anywhere near where it used to be. I remember when I was younger, I got stuck sort of chairing this statewide board many years ago. I think I was probably 28 years old at the time, maybe 30. And I was at a public hearing, and it was a very contentious issue because it was a hazardous waste facility site safety council. So it was about an incinerator being cited in a community. And so every time you went to a public hearing, you had to have police escorts in and out. And so I was cheering this meeting and it was Rokas but this one guy came up and I called on him and he had he walked up sort of the front where we were sitting on a table

as the board. He was like a citizen. He was. And he said and he sort of leaned forward and started to say, hey sweetheart and I up, practically jumped over the table, and I said, don't call me sweetheart. Please tell me people applauded. Well, it was on the news that night. It was a reaction, not a well-thought-out answer, but it made its point. He backed up, and he politely asked questions, which was great. Actually,

that was a very contentious issue that ended up not citing the incinerator. The folks in that community were actually very appreciative of the way that we handled it. You just got to go with the flow, but also recognize that, you know, there's a ground you need to keep as a human being. There's a respect that you need to demand, especially in political situations. Yeah, and especially as a woman, right? You do. Right. Yeah. Which leads me into this next thing I wanted to talk about, which was in 2008, do you remember when Hillary got famously emotional? She was doing a town hall somewhere and she tiered up. And there was a lot of controversy about it because first of all, her approval numbers went up.

And some people thought that was a good thing and others criticized it because it was a woman tearing up on the campaign trail. And as a matter of fact, it was, you know, a woman tearing up on the campaign trail. And as a matter of fact, it was something that when we took and sort of ran with on VEEP when we were making VEEP the first season, we actually had an episode called Tears written by Jesse Armstrong, who now runs his show succession, by the way. And in this particular episode, my character of Selena Meyer gets emotional during an interview only because her staff has negotiated with the journalist to make the journalist ask

Selena Meyer questions to make her cry in an effort to get her approval ratings up. Can you imagine, Felicia, if I'm tired, imagine how tired the rubber makers are. Here in Ohio. She is magnificent. I want an Emmy for that. So that worked out good for me. But I want to know something. Are you an emotional person?

I mean, you stand up and you say, don't call me sweetheart. But I don't know if that makes you an emotional person. I don't know. Maybe it makes me less than stable. I don't know if that makes you an emotional person. I know. Maybe it makes me less than stable. I don't know. In situations like that, you know, I really feel like I disarmed people by being very genuine. I don't get excited about the situation I'm in. You know, I feel like the situation I'm in, you know, I feel like I handle myself well. So I just talk normal and I behave normally. And certainly there are things that, you know,

get very upsetting, but not someone calling me sweet-hot. You know, that was just a reaction. It would have to be a whole lot more than that to get me to be emotional in other than a private setting. And frankly, I don't, you know, I don't a whole lot more than that to get me to be emotional in other than a private setting. And frankly, I don't, you know, I don't tend to be a very weepy person, but I don't find- I'm gonna make you cry.

Okay, good, give it a go. And you're not gonna like pinch me or anything. So here's a question. What's the best advice you received in your career? Did you ever get really good advice from someone that you sort of took with you, that you've taken with you along your way? Yeah, I did.

I did. I got this one thing that sticks out out in my mind. And it was just a little bit of a push as much of an advice as when I was in Massachusetts, one of the things that I did early on in my career, well, mid-career anyways, I was working on how to get rid of the five remaining coal-fired power plants in the state.

The governor had said he was gonna do it. Now it was on the third governor trying to get it done, right? I mean, to talk that long to get this done. And we had a lot of push, I had a lot of pushback at internal meetings. I left the meeting and I was walking with the then chief staff of Environmental Affairs Office. And I said to him, you know, I'm so sick and tired of this. We've gone to three or four of these meetings. I just want to call the question here. Let's just put it on the table and see if the governor will step up. And he said something very casual like, Gina, you never push the question if the answer is going to be no. And he looked at the politics and said, keep plugging because it will break.

But if you try too soon, if you push too hard, and because you're frustrated, not because you found a way to argue something different, then you're going to lose. So every time from then, when I've hit a wall, I've thought to myself, well, what's the other way to get at it? What do I keep? What do I do different? that when I've hit a wall, I've thought to myself, well, what's the other way to get at it? What do I keep? What do I do different? Right.

That's going to start a separate conversation that can get me where I need to go. That's the small P politician in you. Am I right? Yeah, because it's people. You know, I'm not really fighting for a political ideation or idea. That's not where I am. I don't care whether it was a good idea by a Republican or a Democrat.

If it's a good idea and I can save lives, I can make things better, clean up places. I'm going to go for it. Well, speaking of which, then, so you work for Democrats and Republicans, of course. I don't know how you manage to go between the two, particularly in the last, I'm going to say five years, I do not know how you managed to go between the two, particularly in the last, I'm going

to say five years, I do not know how you've done it because I can tell you right now, I'd want to blow my brains out over these fucking lunatics really. I mean, I want to know, and speaking for myself, particularly when I get angry, it's very hard for me to put a sentence together. I get so pissed off that I can't speak articulately. I sense that you are not like this. I know that you are not like this. How, how do you do it?

How do you stay calm? How do you keep from, forgive me, but murdering Joe Manchin? You know what I'm saying? That would have been highly unsuccessful strategy. Well, let's not forget that mansion was a Democrat or is a Democrat? Yes, it's hard to remember that. I guess we had to pinch ourselves and call that out every once in a while. You know, my mother had this saying that always rings through for me

and I say it to my kids and it drives them crazy. It's basically don't waste a good worry on things you can't control. Oh, that's such good advice. Which I think is that in government, if you don't take a deep breath on things that you can't change, you'll drive yourself friggin' nuts. Right. And I did for a while when I was younger, but I don't do that anymore. I have to find a different way to get to the outcome I want.

So when I did more hearings, me and Tom Perez, it was the Labor Secretary under Obama, and when I was the K-administrator, we were competing for who was hauled up in front of Congress more. But you just had to sit there and recognize that this is not your show. This is their show. The only thing you had to do was stay polite, tell the truth.

If they didn't like the truth, it'd say something else. You'd still answer the question. And you just keep moving on because a lot of, you know, what happens at the federal level and in politics is bluster. You know, and if you can't take that, don't go in. You know, because that you have to desensitize yourself to that. But still, you know, you still have to respect people. They won. So you do what you still have to respect people. They won.

So you do what you can to be as respectful as you can. But you don't ever have to agree, and you don't ever have to try to bounce back and be as nasty to someone as they are to you. It's the worst thing in the world, especially for a woman. That's not the atmosphere within which you can win. Doesn't that suck? Yeah.

I mean, it's interesting that you say that especially for a woman. I can't, I mean, the idea of stooping to their level, the blustery level is just, that's off the table for you as a woman. Yeah. But that's what they were looking to do, right? That's what they wanted. Yeah, that's the trap. That's the trap. So I keep saying, you know, I just sat there going,

okay, Jeannie, you're going to leave here and you're not going to make one single story. They just wasted their time on you. Right. That's what I wanted. Because it was certainly not my goal to defend life and liberty in the pursuit of happiness in front of, you know, senators that throw snowballs and say, climate change isn't happening.

I mean, seriously. Well speaking of which, I will tell you this story on myself, because back over 20 years ago, I remember Lori David whom you know and I know of course. I do. She came to me and she was thinking she was going to do a documentary about global warming, which ultimately turned into an inconvenient truth and one an academy award. But she says this to me and I'm like, you know what, I don't think anybody's going to buy that. And I'm like, you know what? I don't think anybody's gonna buy that. So that was my, that's what a complete idiot I was.

I mean, I really did think it was just too big, too big an idea to present to the American movie going audience, you know, or shall I say a global movie going audience. So what did I know? But anyway, have you always been on this climate train? And how did you come around to it yourself? You know, I had a woman that I worked with when I was in the environmental agency in Massachusetts

who was an equality person. And she spotted it early, and really kept pushing me and pushing me to start getting more active on climate. We got to talk about it. And so I really got very active when we started looking at something called the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative,

which was the first cap and trade program in New England and the Mid-Atlantic States, it's now 11 states. That was a really big thing for me. And it was the first time I started to get a real sense of the dynamics of this issue. And all the various ways it could really start thinking about managing it and addressing it.

You know, I obviously don't have your expertise on the climate crisis, but I certainly understand the gravity of this issue and the scale of it. And I can't imagine what it's like to take on something so huge and to have the responsibility that you had. And my son was in in fourth grade. He had a teacher named Christie whom we adored and she used to say to Henry and to the kids when they were feeling overwhelmed by whatever, you know, a math test or a little essay or something they had to write whatever. She would say take it in manageable parts, break it down into manageable parts. And it down into manageable parts. And it reminds me of something that you said that I have here.

You said, I just don't think there's anything we can't do when we begin to take those small steps because when you do big steps follow. And it reminded me of Christie. It's the same idea, isn't it? Yeah, it is. I think, and this is a really important thing, I think, maybe feel listeners and others to think about, is when you have a big lift that you're trying to get, you take it in five pound weights, right?

You have to just start somewhere. I've seen it my whole life. It's been amazing. The Regional Greenhouse Gasoline Initiative was huge. No one could do it. Then you got a couple of states who can. I was like, I was an initiative, it was huge, no one could do it, blah, blah, blah, blah. Then you got a couple of states who can. Then all of a sudden, oh, this actually works.

More states, you know, it just happens. But you can't always, with big things, know how to get them done. You just know you have to start. I think people worry too much about plans to the finish. I see it all the time. Well, that'll only get you halfway there. I'm like, well, who gives a shit? Halfway is halfway further than I am now. Right, exactly. We'll get more wisdom from Gina McCarthy after this break. Stay tuned. You know that feeling when you try on a new article of clothing and it just checks all

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I know you took a lot of criticism about the Flint water crisis. And actually, one of our producers is a black woman and we are watching the hearings that you went through. And when she described what it was like watching the Senate hearings, she said that the woman part of her was cheering for you, but the black part of her was very let down.

Yeah. And so I'm wondering today, what would you say to those black people that community who felt disillusioned and disenfranchised by the whole thing, by that crisis? Well, I certainly won't challenge how she feels. If I were her, I probably would have felt the same way. So there's a couple of things. One is that entire city had been let down for decades. And we did nothing at EPA to help with that. Very, very little.

We didn't jump on it quickly. We didn't recognize what the community was saying. We were just listening to, and then they had this emergency supervisor, I forget what the term was, that was running Flint, because basically the state took it over. And they didn't tell us the truth. And we just didn't push fast enough. Now I know that at headquarters, when we figured this out, we jumped, we had people there the next day,

we had emergency services set up for years after that, but it was a horrendous situation. And so what that hearing was about, though, was a couple of things. It was about obviously getting information out. But the challenging part is is whenever a problem like that happens, everybody wants to land on someone to blame. It's human nature.

And so I had to take and make sure that everybody knew about the disappointment we had at EPA with our performance and not listening quickly. But it was a horrible situation. And I don't blame anybody for resenting that, or feeling like we let them down, because I don't think I feel any differently. Every time it's brought up, I have a pit in my stomach.

It seemed to me during the hearing when I was watching the footage. It seemed to me like the hearing, when I was watching the footage, it seemed to me like you were biting your tongue a lot during that hearing. Oh, it was. And actually, back to Vip again, we used to meet with politicians and people in government and lobbyists and all sorts of things. And when I say, we, I mean me and the writers and stuff.

And one of those people was Mitt Romney. He came to talk to our writers room. And he was incredibly generous to do so. And he hung out for a really long time. And we asked him about his 47% gap that he made when he was running for president. And it was an incredible gap. And it was sort of, I think, the beginning of the end of his run for president, to a certain extent. And we were asking him about that and how he managed that moment, what it was like.

And what he said to us was, you know, when you're explaining, you're losing, he said, which is an actual line, then we put into the show. What happened to you during that hearing, that kept you from saying what maybe you wanted to say and what did you want to say? Well, you know, the awkwardness of that hearing, it was not- Oh, and that shavots. I mean, give me a fuck.

I have, I know. The awkwardness was that. I was sitting next to the governor. Now, the governor had all the culpability in the world, right? The state, which we now know, because the state's the one that's been sued, right? And the other ones that have had to pay, because it was their responsibility to tell us the truth and they didn't. So I think he went first and then I went next.

And so you make your case, but I really kind of wanted to whack them one. Do you know what I mean? I'm like seriously. Yes, I tried my best to yes explain because in government, you're supposed to explain. You're supposed to explain what you did, what you didn't do, how you thought about it. Maybe that's losing, but to me, that's governance. That's leadership. I tell.

Right. And so we took culpability to the extent that I tried hard to make sure that people knew that we should not be without criticism. We are not without blame. But to have that guy start out by saying it was our fault, well, that was where I was biting my tongue. I see. Because that would have done nobody any good.

And frankly, I think the people were much more interested in getting justice than they were revenge. I want to shift gears now. Thank you for that. And thank you for speaking so in depth about that crisis in particular. So, but now I'm changing gears completely. I want to ask you something. You have three children, right?

Yes. You have three children in three years. I did. Had you not heard about something called birth control? Ha, ha, control? Yes. I think I just got overly excited. I'm sorry. Clearly.

Those were fun years, I'm telling you. Where are they? My first one I was 30. Oh my God, they were great. They were crazy. Yeah, crazy, exactly. How did you do it? Because you had a career.

You were working. Were you not? I was. I was. So I had my first one. I was the health agent in Kent. And that was a full time job. And I had a lovely friend who was in the same town who sat for my child after like he was three months old or so.

And so I went back to work and I kept that job up for a while, which was great. Then I just, I got pregnant again. And then I decided I probably should take a little bit of time with this baby, which I did. But then I got really bored. So you got pregnant again. So no, so I went back to work. And then I got pregnant again. So it was the way it worked was, you know, my husband's really terrific. He's just a great person and he was in the flower business. Yeah. And his, our schedules worked. Please. So he would go in this, there's a flower market in the city where he had to go in and buy flowers because he bought them for supermarkets. That's was his job then. And he'd go in at like three in the morning, two or three in the morning. That's when his day started. And he'd get home at two.

And I'd go to work then. And I'd go to work for like three hours or four hours in the job. And then I'd take home a box of plans that other people didn't have time to look at. And I'd work till 10 at night at home. So it was like tag team parent. It was. That's it. Yep. Wow. So it was really fun. And not seeing one another a lot was how I avoided the fourth maybe. I don't know. Four and four years would have been the death of me. That would have been that's a lot. But I had you know I also had a sister in law who had two kids that not too long after mine. So when my kids will like you know know, three and four and five, I had a lot of help. Family's great. The family was around. Because your mother also worked, right? I

mean, she, she worked while raising you in your church. She did. She was a waitress. And then she was a nurse's aide and she worked in a chemical company for a while. So she was great. I think I learned to live with less sleep than most human beings. And I think I got that from her. I love the attitude about it. I have to say, when I was having my kids

and I spaced them out, right? I spaced there five years apart. But even having them spaced apart, I was like dying. I wish actually looking back on it, I wish five years apart. But even having them spaced apart, I was like dying. I wish actually looking back on it, I wish I'd been, I could have taken a big fat chill pill during that time, because I was so anxious about being there for them. And then also, when I had to get to work, and it doesn't sound like you suffered that at all. Not as bad, but I told you, I don't waste a good worry. I mean, I just don't do that because it's so draining. So it all works out. You just got to make it happen.

And honestly, having someone like my husband was really made it all happen. It's always been challenging, but he always knew that I was never gonna be a person who didn't wanna work. It's just in my blood. You know, I love having a purpose, and it's great to have your purpose be motherhood, and many people are satisfied with that and happy. It just wasn't me.

And so he knew when I said I was gonna take some time off after the second that I probably would. He knew that. I built a really actually I built a really terrific swing set. And I built a really terrific little little house in the back for the kids to play in. God, I really, I really wish I'd known you when I was a young mother. I could have used, I could have used your handiwork. I could have used a swing set back here. Hey, when did your hair start to go gray? Oh, when I was about 13.

Get the fuck outta here. I was significantly gray in high school. No. And I really loved it because it was like so different. Of course. I have grown up with literally no style, right? I mean, I just sweat jeans whenever I can get away with it. And if it's not jeans, it's just a really cheap pair of pants.

And maybe I can find some kind of jacket to go over it. I just can't, it's just not what I do. I suck at that stuff. But I loved my gray hair. It always gave me something probably to detract from my clothes. So it was great. But then when you grow into an age where it's not a surprise anymore, then it's like, oh

shit. You know, it gives me no distinguishing feature. Yeah, but it's a good color. It is. For real. It's totally white. It's ridiculous. I have to tell you that I started graying at a very young age too,

but I started, I've been dying at my whole life. At some point, I got to let this go. And like how old? Probably about in my early 20s. Yeah, my daughter's like that. My oldest daughter Maggie. Yeah, and she's not pleased with it. She dying her hair?

Yeah, yeah, she colors it. But because if she doesn't, it starts getting this gray thing. I had kind of a light brown here. So it was boring without the gray. And it mixed in well. It wasn't staddling at first, so it grew in. But Maggie's here is much darker than mine. And so it looked, and I would agree with

her. I totally would have done the same thing if I were her. But what do you do like if you have to go to an event or something, you get somebody to help you with your outfit choices or you just share the pants and the jacket. I don't have. Really. If I actually hired somebody to look through my choices, they'd only have to work for about five minutes or so. Because it's either the gray suit or the blue suit. You know what I mean? It's just I'm really bad. I'm trying to be better, but I don't think I ever will be. Yeah, I don't think you're changing in this area. No. So all of these high power jobs that you've had throughout your career, I want to know, how do you take care of yourself in the middle of all of that? Do you have any sort of a, you know, they call it self-care, but what do you do for yourself?

I do, I do think I take care of myself. You know, when I was a kid, we sort of grew up outside. Yeah. So, being outside and walking, biking, and in my younger years, running, it was absolutely essential. You know, I always swam a lot. I'm a pretty good swimmer. Oh, really? Do you still swim? Not of the past couple of years. I should, but I just haven't had time.

The White House is a horse of a different color. I'll tell you who. They're like all the time. Do they have a pool in the White House? You can pop into. And you know what I really do? Every night, and this has been a habit of mine, I think, for a really long time, is I read a book.

I have to. That's how I get my mind off of things. And I've always read mystery books. That's how I get my mind off of things, you know? And I've always read mystery books. Because I can read them and I can put them down. You know, a novel I read every once in a while, but they're intense, they're all personal. And I'm like, I don't need any more drama in my life.

I just want to know something. Exactly. And so what are you reading now? What are you reading? Oh, I am reading something by Karen Slotter, which is a more intense book than I thought. I'll tell you my favorite author. Tell me. Is Louise Penny. Louise Penny. She does the Gammash books. It's a mystery. It can be complex. And I think she's on her, maybe 12th book. And I've read every single one of them. And I thought I was the only freak

that was obsessed with this woman. I have her on my Kindle as I'll buy anything, this woman writes. She just did a book with Hillary Clinton. Oh, she's the one who did the book with Hillary Clinton. Oh my goodness. I don't know what it is, but I'm just

fascinated with the woman in the way she writes. Are you in a book club? No, I've never done that. I didn't. I didn't want to. It was too much pressure to finish the book and then have an opinion. I like to go at my own right. You know, I think I just gave you the most opinion of a book I've ever given anyone in my life. I think we just started a book club. That own right. You know, I think I just gave you the most opinion of a book I've ever given anyone in my life. I think we just started a book club. That's what I think. I think you and I are now in a Louise Penny book club.

So now this is the very last bit of our conversation which has gone on forever. I apologize for that, but what the hell. We had a lot to cover. That's okay. You know, I love talking to you. I love talking to you too. Here's a question. Something you'd go back and tell yourself when you were 21. Read more. Louise Penny. See, I start to sentence you complete it. That's a good one. What do you

love about being your age? Is there anything you love about being 69? There's a few things. Four things in particular, which are my grandchildren. They're the best. It's as if you got through kids in order to get grandkids. Really, it's better than best. I'll tell you, they're just such a joy. Four, three, almost two, and seven months. So do you see them all the time? I do it well, three of them. And I say, you know, that my, the oldest is in New Jersey. So I know it's not a long way, but it tends to be when you want to see them all the time. Of course, yeah. Is there anything you wish you'd spent less time on? Oh. Besides shopping for pants.

No, I've sort of lived my life the way I wanted to, I guess. Maybe I should buy a few shirts, too. What do you think? I think maybe you should spend more time on shopping. I don't think I would, I can't imagine that I would have ever said this in one of these conversations, but I think it's time for you to really focus on shopping. Yeah, that's probably true. I think I have to come to Boston and we're going somewhere.

Or you're going to need to meet in New York. Just bring you a checkbook, you know. I'm just a government worker. Yeah, done and done. Sorry, ex-government worker. Exactly. What are you looking forward to? Is there something you're looking forward to?

Yeah, there's lots, I think. I'm looking forward to spending more time with my kids. I think if there's any regret that I've had, it's that I think I could have spending more time with my kids. I think if there's any regret that I've had, it's that I think I could have spent more time with my kids rather than my work. So I've missed some of that. But I don't know whether they feel that way. I'm sure they'd tell me if they did.

They're just about as shy as I am. Got it. But I just want to relax a little bit. I'm really looking forward. And I think I've done pretty well to just finding a way to chill and finding a way to get a little more exercise again. Swimming, you got to go swimming. I've thought about that.

I found a couple of swimming pools in the area. So I got to get my button gear. I started swimming recently. I have to tell you, I find it very meditated after a certain point. It getting going is I mean it's difficult for me anyway. It's hard but then you get into a rhythm and I just it's really good for the brain. I loved it. Well I was a life god for years like through college and stuff and and I used to to swim all the time every day. And I loved when you hit that moment that you're talking about.

Yeah. You know, when you all you can hear is your breath. It's unbelievable. It's really cool. It's proper meditation. It's what it is. It really, it is great. Plus, it's great.

Swint, it's great exercise, especially when my age. I think when we go shopping, we're getting you all sorts of new pants and really lovely blouses, jackets, possibly a dress, and by the way, a new bathing suit. I feel that coming. I will draw the line at bathing caps. I really don't like that look. Oh, then you don't want to come swimming with me,

because I, that is, let's don't want to come swimming with me. Let's just say it's the opposite of sexy. I don't know what the what that word is, but that's what I am. Gina, I can't tell you how much fun this has been to hang out with you and talk. Julie, you know, I love you. Thank you for giving me the opportunity. It's great to spend time with you again. Likewise, likewise. I hope I see you sometime soon. We'll make that happen. All right. Mwah.

Big hug. Take care. OK, we have to take a quick break right now. And when we come back, it's time to zoom my mom. Learning a new language can seem really intimidating, I know. For a lot of us last time we tried was in high school, but digging into Spanish or Italian or French doesn't have to feel like it felt in high school, it can be a really exciting and mind-opening experience, especially with Babel. Babel is a language learning app that has sold more than 10 million subscriptions. It's a fun and easy

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Okay, I can't wait to talk to my mom about this conversation with Gina. I'm going to zoom it right now. Mommy, can you see me? Yeah, I can see you and I just dropped my mouse. Okay, do you want to get it? I can wait for you. And can you see me? I can see you, Mommy.

More on two seconds, let me just do this thing. There's my little zoom thing. Mommy, can you want to get it? I can wait for you. And can you see me? I can see you, Mommy. We're on two seconds, let me just do this thing. There's my little zoom thing. Mommy, can you see me? I can see you, I can see you're a little postage stamp. Only a postage stamp? Yeah, because I remember it was happening. Well, your mouth is on the floor for starters. No, I have it now, Mommy.

Oh, you got it, okay. All right, good. Hi, Mom. Hi, it's Sweetheart, how are you? I. Hi, that's sweet. How are you? I'm good. I just talked to Gina McCarthy. Oh, heaven's eggs. Wow, wow, wow.

Yeah. Are you smarter than ever? Ever. I am so smart. The big takeaway is that I'm going to take Gina shopping because she pays no attention to her clothes. She just buys pants that are cheap and jackets that are cheap and that's the end of it. I wonder if that's a bad way to go.

No, I think it's probably, I think, talk about word to the wise. I think we should all probably be paying a lot less attention to shopping, although I'm saying that, knowing that I don't believe a word that I just said. What you can talk about things that should be. Yeah. We can be aspirational. Tell me something, how do she get into the work? Is she a scientist?

No, she's not. Her career began in the 80s. She was the public health officer in Canton, Massachusetts, outside of Boston. When did Gord first do the inconvenient truth? 2006. Oh, yeah, that's what that's when it came out So, you know, and and remember you and I and daddy We went and heard Gord speak well before it was the movie and he was giving the talk about Global warming. He was he was just on fire about it. I mean giving the talk about global warming. He was just on fire about it, giving the talk.

Right, exactly. Certainly the environment and climate change, and this is taking hold of more and more people, including the young people. And it struck me, I remember so well during World War II, the war effort. Yes. And how universal in this country, the war effort was

and how I did truly think if I bought those same stamps and then I got my bond and then I gathered up my scrap metal and I took it to the collection place. I did truly think that that was going to help when the war. I mean, there was no question in my mind and I was like, you know, eight years old. Yeah. There was a ferv in my mind and I was like, you know, eight years old. Yeah.

There was a fervor about it and it was universal. And I was thinking to myself, Jesus, I wish that the environment could take on that kind of mission where every single person thought every single thing that they did was crucial. Well, mom, maybe that's happening. Maybe that is we are on the road towards that, you know? Yeah, and it really speaks to a kind of a connectivity You felt to your community and to your country and to human beings was you know, I mean in other words it was you were not alone and it spoke to that and I think if the Environmental messaging is correct. It can tap into exactly that fervor you're talking. I think if the environmental messaging is correct, it can tap into exactly that

fervor you're talking about, I think. Well, you know, here in our condo, we have a woman that's very much into energy, and she has been, she moved here about four years ago, and boy, she has taken off, you know, we're composting now. Of course, we've been recycling for a long time, but now she's gone over all kinds of energy. She has a whole list of, if you leave a room of 15 minutes, you turn the lights off, and that's one of the things. And then she has all kinds of other suggestions that are on the bulletin board. Mom, are there resistance at all in the building to these suggestions?

Well, there's resistance in that certain people have made fun of her. You know, there she goes again. But now you can tell the meetings that she made fun of her. There she goes again. But now you can tell the meetings that she is front and center and she's in trepid and she doesn't give a crap about who loves her or doesn't love her. She is here to make this place more energy efficient. And my hat's off to her. You can tell that she gets listened to now and she talks a little bit less. You know, she stands up and she says certain things because she's got us on a certain track and she really gets listened to carefully. Oh, I'm so pleased to hear that.

Gina McCarthy started going gray at the age of 13. 13. Oh my gosh. I know, but she said she loved it. Yeah, right. Well, it's so stunning when you're when you're young. That's what she said. She said it distinguished her. She because she has blue eyes and she had this beautiful gray hair and she said it was like it made her feel really special. She says now she doesn't feel special, but she's it's still very pretty. Yeah, so interesting. Was that a hard decision for you to make that decision to go gray? Yeah, it was a huge decision. And I planned to do it when I was 70.

But then somehow the days went by, and I sort of got through my 70s. And then I think it was a long around that when I was in my late 70s that I said, I really was curious as to what was under there. Yeah. And I found a wonderful hairdresser who shepherded me along and helped me do it and I was very encouraging, which is very important, you know, because it's a big change. I was happy. I did it, but I still,

you know, when I see pictures of myself as a brunette, I think, hmm, well, but- Well, you can always die if back. I like your gray hair, Mommy. I think it looks fantastic. I really do. I thanks. Thanks sweetheart. I'm glad I did it. And I've never, you know, I've never really seriously considered going backwards. So once you've done it, you've done it. Once you've done it, you've done it. Well, I love you tons. And I will talk to you later. Thank you for doing such a good work for not only for your family and for the people that you love, but for the all the people that you love in the world. Okay. You're welcome world and mommy.

Okay. I mean that too. I really mean that. Yeah. Okay. Thanks, mom. Love you. Okay, love you. Bye, Mom. Mom. Mom. Okay, my mother didn't push leave. We're just looking at her desktop possibly. Mom, can you hear me? Yeah. Okay, hold on on I'm intercollar. Oh brother. Mom. Can you hear me? Yeah. Okay mom you've um can you hear me? Yep. Okay you've kept the zoom on on

your computer so if you can go back to your computer and person. Now I see you. Now I see you. I've not been able to get this like this before. Now I can leave things and all that stuff. So I'm leaving now. OK, leave now. Thank you.

Thank you. OK, bye. There's more Wiser than me with Lemonade Premium, subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content, subscribe now and Apple podcasts. Wiser than me is a production of Lemonade Media created and hosted by me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. The show is produced by Chrissy Pease, Alex McCohen, and O'Hall Opez. Brad Hall is a consulting producer. Our senior editor is Tracy Clayton.

Rachel Neal is our senior director of new content and our VP of Weekly Production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Stephanie Widdle's Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer, Paula Kaplan, and me. The show is mixed by Kat Yor and Johnny Vince Evans and music by Henry Hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Charlotte Kirstman Cohen and of course my mother Judith Boles. Follow Wiser than me wherever you get your podcasts and hey if there's an old lady in your life, listen up!

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