Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus - Julia Gets Wise with Glenn Close

Episode Date: December 10, 2025

On this episode of Wiser Than Me, Julia is joined by 78-year-old actress Glenn Close, who reflects on growing up in the Moral Re-Armament cult, her iconic work in Fatal Attraction and the new Knives Out, and the tenacity, talent, and forgiveness that have shaped her life. She also shares the impact of her grandmothers, how becoming one has changed her, and an incredible reveal from the set of The Natural. Meanwhile, Julia and her mother Judy dive into the fiery women in their own family tree.   Follow Wiser Than Me on Instagram and TikTok @wiserthanme and on Facebook at facebook.com/wiserthanmepodcast. Find us on Substack at wiserthanme.substack.com.  Keep up with Glenn Close @glennclose on Instagram.   Find out more about other shows on our network at @lemonadamedia on all social platforms.   Joining Lemonada Premium is a great way to support our show and get bonus content. Subscribe today by hitting 'Subscribe' on Apple Podcasts or lemonadapremium.com for any other app.   For exclusive discount codes and more information about our sponsors, visit https://lemonadamedia.com/sponsors/.    For additional resources, information, and a transcript of the episode, visit lemonadamedia.com.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey, it's me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. We are officially back with a brand new season of Wiser Than Me. To celebrate your out-of-this-world support for our show, we've been brewing up something special, a wiser than me, mere traveler. It's a versatile, sustainable travel mug to keep your coffee hot and your tea cozy all year round. It's perfect for wise women on the go. Head over to wiser than me shop.com to grab yours now. Okay, here's the show. Lemonada Every actor who's been around for a minute has an audition story, and here is mine. You may have heard part of this story before, but I want you to hear the whole thing. This was a really long time ago, like between S&L and Seinfeld, and I was living in New York, and I got an audition for the movie about last night. This was a movie with a lot of heat on it. It was being directed by Ed Zwick, and it was based on a play by David Mamet, the preeminent American playwright of the day.

And it had been adapted by my close Chicago pal Tim Kazerinsky. And the role that I was auditioning for was Joan, the cynical friend, which is, you know, come on, let's face it, that's like right in my wheelhouse. So, okay, I go to this hotel for the audition, and I'm in the hallway waiting for my turn to go in. And from inside the room, I hear this big laugh and out comes Demi Moore, who was like peak brat pack at that moment. And she did this adorable little twirl, and everybody was waving goodbye to her, and they were craning their necks to see her go. She was so beautiful. And that's when the casting assistant says, Julie Lou Gehryphus. And I'm like, oh, fuck, I have to follow that.

I mean, even though I wasn't reading for the same part as Demi Moore, I mean, her just her confidence and the fact that she had obviously killed in the room, it was just also very intimidating. I remember exactly nothing about the audition, and that gives you an idea of the trauma that I experienced for the next three minutes or so. It was terrible, and it should have been great. I mean, I was right for the part. I was prepared that it was such a disaster. was a total fluke. All I needed was another chance. But of course, you know, you don't get another chance unless you get called back. And I really wasn't getting called back for that. That was for sure. So guess what I did? I went home and I wrote the director Edswick a handwritten note. And I was completely honest. And I begged him for one more chance. I told him that I knew I could just nail the role of Joan. And I took the note. And I took the

back to the hotel and I gave it to the concierge who told me that he would absolutely deliver it personally to Mr. Zwick, which he did. And you know what? Ed Swick is not only a wonderful director, but he's also a wonderful man. And he said, absolutely, come back tomorrow. We would be so very happy to see you again. And I ran that Jones scene a thousand times in my apartment that night. And the next day, just brimming with confidence, and buoyed by my display of classic, you know, show biz, chutzpah, I walked back into that room where I could feel Ed Swick and the producers rooting for me because I'd taken a chance and it was paying off.

Eleven months later, almost to the day, about last night opened. And guess what? When I nervously read the review in the New York Times, they didn't love the movie, but they said. Standing out in the role of Joan, a kindergarten teacher who says very funny and very rude things to men in a singles bar is the excellent Elizabeth Perkins. Oh my God. Not for the faint of heart, this show business. That's why one of my... Oh, God. My favorite things in the world is an actor over 70 who is still working, still risking everything on stage or in front of a camera and has great stories to tell. I think it's kind of heroic, really. How fitting then that today

we get to talk to Glenn Close. I'm Julia Louis Dreyfuss, and this is wiser than me. The podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. So, you're walking along a creek in Bozeman, Montana. Sakajua Peak rises nearly 10,000 feet above. no crunches underfoot as you move through the beautiful untamed wilderness, and then up ahead you see her, a woman with the most striking, gorgeous white hair moving confidently through the snow. And yeah, it's Glenn Close, who is now settled in Bozeman among bears and mountain bluebirds being, you know, fabulous Glenn Close.

I got to watch her in fatal attraction again last night, let me tell you something. That movie holds up. And you know why it holds up? Because Glenn Close has this weight, this power, this inner light, this complete commitment. When she takes a role, any role, Alex Fores, Patty Hughes, Albert Knobes, and hundreds more, man, she loves to work. I can't believe how much this woman works. For every role, she engineers a real person, even when it's Cruella DeVille. Glenn Close makes it the real Crueliella DeVille. The crew. Cruella, who would do all of those horrible, terrible, Crewella things, and she still gets all the laughs. And on stage, good Lord, I was lucky enough to see her on Broadway and Sunset Boulevard, and it was a full-on tour de force, for real. Glenn didn't grow up, like most actors. She grew up inside the MRA, a fundamentalist movement, she later called a cult. Somehow, she emerged from that with an enormous heart and a capacity for compassion and forgiveness that shows up in all of her performances on the screen and on stage. Beyond performing, she co-founded Bring Change to

Mind with her sister, Jessie, turning a family struggle into a mission to break the stigma around mental illness, reaching two billion people and supporting tens of thousands of students along the way. She's won Tonys and Golden Globes and Emmys and is an eight-time Oscar nominee, that is right, eight times. This year, she became a first-time grandmother, which feels like a great way for her to start her third act. Welcome mother, sister, aunt, actor, producer, writer, and now grandmother and a woman who is so much wiser than me. Glenn Close. Hi, Glenn. Hi. Hi. I do not think I'm wise at all. Well, we'll see. Somehow I think you are quite wise and I'm delighted to have you here. What an honor and a treat. Great to be with you. Okay, so you live in Montana,

I'm talking to you now. You're in Berlin, which is a far cry from Bozeman, Montana. What does a good day look like for you in Bozeman? Are you a hiker? Do you get out in the mountains? I love to hike. I love to hike. But I'm so, oh, God, I think probably the best, luckiest thing that ever happened in my life is that before the big onslaught of people moving to Bozeman that started during COVID, I was able to find. a piece of land that had actually been on the market for seven years, and I was able to buy it. Wow. And that is my legacy to my daughter and her husband and their child and to my family. We're right up against the Bridgers, and the property goes up into the national forest.

There will be nothing in between us and that, and we have mountain lions, elk, moose, deer, bears, what, you know, grouse. And it's the greatest gift of my life. Oh. It is. I love that you were able to create that for yourself. And you recreated your grandparents' cottage?

Is this correct? Oh, yeah. That was kind of weird. My grandparents didn't actually live in a cottage. They lived in a house that was bigger than a cottage. Yes. But they had this wonderful stone cottage on their farm, on their property, that I think originally had been a slaughterhouse. Oh, God.

But it was made into this really cozy cottage, and that was my first memory in that little cottage. Got it. Stone, it had ivy on the front, had literally a white picket fence around it in the middle of a hay field and woods. So I decided when I was building this house, because I'm living my life backwards, The behind the house, I was going to build a cottage, a stone cottage, because the happiest and most inspiring years of my life was in that place. And I have decided that I am going to end my days in that cottage. So there's two bedrooms for me and my caretaker eventually. And that's where I'm going to, that's where I'm going to die.

Oh, my God. Happily. That is extraordinary. That's extraordinary. It's actually built now or you're building it? Yes, I think the stone part is built. And I think this week they're started with a porch, there's a little porch that goes down onto a terrace is between the cottage and the bigger house. Yeah.

It makes me so happy. It makes me so happy. to think that. I think that's such an incredible thing to really, if you call it living your life backwards, but you're really sort of in control of things in a way that most people don't get the opportunity to do. And I think that's extraordinary that you've been able to pull that off. And I'm just now thinking, I've got to build a cottage around here for myself.

I've got to build a two-bedroom cottage. I've got to figure that one out. I'm going to do that. Yeah, yeah. So tell me, are you comfortable if I ask your real age? 78. How old do you feel? Oh, God. I feel probably around in my 20s. Oh, really? Maybe early 30s. How is that? Why is that? What is it about feeling that younger age? I don't know. I just, I don't, when I think of how old I actually am, it just amazes me, so I don't think about it much. Yeah.

Because I don't think I fit into whatever people expect you to be like when you're 78 years old. Yeah. And I'm thinking about a lot because I had this experience when I was really, really little where I was sitting in this open field, plucking. I used to like to pluck the, you know, the juicy parts of clover blossoms. and bite down on them because they're sweet. But I all of a sudden started concentrating on my hand and then my fingers came down and plucked up the little piece of the clover, put it in my mouth.

And I realized that what was ever making that hand work was not really who I am. That who I am was whatever was looking out of my eyes. And I felt that my body is just the person. particular house I was put in on this planet. And I feel, thank God, is kind of, you know, is aging kind of needs a little bit of renovation, but it's holding up pretty well. But I really feel like who I am has always been whatever is looking out of my eyes. I'm absolutely fascinated that you tell that story because it sounds like you had an awareness of your soul at the

that young tender age, correct? It's what it is. If that's what it was, but I certainly had an awareness. Wow. That there was something that I was very aware of the mechanics of my arm and my hand and my fingers doing that particular act. And I felt that it was different, that the body that was holding it, holding it and doing that action. I felt I was the observer of that. Hmm. It's an incredible thing to consider and that you became an actor. That is a, in a strange way, it's almost like an acting awareness.

Huh. Isn't it? Kind of, you know? Yeah, because I think, I think of acting is, you know, looking into someone else's eyes and reflecting off of that. Right. And the most powerful thing in film is the close-up. doesn't exist on stage but the close-up when it's well used by a director will keep an audience

emotionally engaged because it's like you're looking into somebody else's eyes up close i don't think there's anything more powerful than two eyes looking into two eyes and i think that's one of the reasons why we all seem to be floating in this you know almost dystopian world because we're getting further and further away from that. It's not the same the way you and I are looking at each other through a screen. Yeah. It's just not the same. It's not the same.

What do you think is the best part about being your age, Glenn, do you think? The best part? Yeah, the best part. I wonder. The best part is, first of all, oh, God. I mean, there's a lot of, I mean, I'm living my life backwards. I feel like I'm just probably. discovering more now than I ever have. I feel I'm finally maybe getting at a place where I can settle

into who I am and not have to worry about pleasing people all the time. Oh, that's nice. Which was a really, you know, big thing to try to deal with. Yeah. And another great thing is that you've had experience. I mean, even in my profession, in my craft, you know, you feel like there are more possibilities because you know more, you've done more, you've learned more. Yeah, and also I really love the fact that I've known some people for a very long time. I like having a history with people, beginning with my family. Of course, yeah. It really means a lot to me. Yeah. Hey, I know you have a new grandbaby. What kind of grandma are you? Do you like being a grandmother? I love being a grandmother and we faced time in fact we faced on about an hour ago he's growing up so fast he was

born in february during a snowstorm oh were you there for that yeah and i was there kind of by a miracle because i was doing all's fair in l.a and um it was around the times of the fires the fires weren't a miracle the fires were horrendous but um we were on a hiatus for a week and it was during that time that he was born So I was there. Oh, wow. Okay. So you got to be there.

Yeah. Yeah. And are you very a part of his life? And as a grandma, how does that work? How are you doing all of this? I try to be as much of a part as I can, but I know that it's important for my daughter, Annie, and her husband, Mark, and Rory is his name. They have their family unit, you know. You don't always want to have grandma hanging out.

Yeah. So sometimes I'll say, can I come over? But I think we have it pretty well worked out. I think they know, of course, how much time, how much it means to me to be with him. And just I love getting in his playpen and playing with him and just watching him figure things out. He has wonderful concentration. I love that. I mean, I could practically hear his brain cells popping, you know, his little fingers and make him, you know, first he can't grab stuff.

he grabs it and then he can look at it and then he it's just you know I was working when Annie was born she was only seven weeks old when I went over to do dangerous liaison oh so I was lucky enough to have a magnificent woman with me but I wasn't I didn't spend the kind of time that Annie has spent with Rory because I was working so it's almost like I'm reliving her babyhood through her son's babyhood and kind of filling in the gaps that I missed. Can you talk about that, about the experience of working the way you did with a child and how, I mean, I understand in the beginning you had dangerous liaisons, but then what happened after that? How did you sort of straddle it all?

all. What did you learn from that experience? Because that's, that's hard. It's massive demand, both at work. I mean, incredible. Well, you've, you've gone through it. Do you know what it is? I've gone through it. You're cut in half. I think certainly I can only speak as a woman. Yeah, of course, because that's what we are. But I think as soon as you have a child, you're basically cut in half. Half of you is with your child and half of you is with you. And it's, I think that's why women age faster than men, perhaps, because you don't sleep as well, because your ear is always tuned towards your child. Would you have done anything differently, do you think, looking back on that period of time? No, the only, I mean, I have to say, where I was so lucky was that I could

afford help. Yeah, me too, exactly. And if I couldn't have afforded help, I would have had to stop working and working was the way I made my living and could afford taking care of my child. Right. But, you know, I'd come to a point in my career where it was just around, I remember, I was really, really sick with, you know, I'd just gotten pregnant and I, and I was throwing up all the time. And it was the opening of fatal attraction. Oh, wow. And I was pregnant and I remember after the screening in New York, there was a big party at Tavern of the Green. And all I could eat was rice.

I was so throwing up all the time. Oh, you poor soul. It's time for a break. More with Glenn Close in just a moment. And by the way, we just launched a Wiser Than Me newsletter where you can get behind the scenes details from my conversation with Glenn and more.

You can subscribe now at wiser than me.substack.com. You'll get photos and videos, letters from me, think exclusive bonus snippets, glimpses behind the scenes of the making of the podcast, a deeper dive into every guest, plus a place to connect with other wiser than me listeners. I hope you subscribe at wiser than me. Dot substack.com and stick around to see what we have in store. Be right back. Hey, Prime members, did you know you can listen to Wiser Than Me ad-free on Amazon Music? Download the Amazon Music app today to start listening, Ad-Free. Okay, I'm not going to talk about food waste this time. Promise. I'm going to talk about food resources.

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No, this is crazy. This is crazy. So we shot the original movie. And I remember we ended in December. And it wasn't until the following summer that I was told they wanted to reshoot the ending. I was very lucky I didn't cut my hair. But I was pregnant during that whole reshoot when I was doing the stuff in the bathtub and getting slammed against the, you know, the medicine cabinet by Michael. And it was after that that I found out I was pregnant. Oh, so you didn't know when you were being thrown around the tile bathroom that you were pregnant? That I was pregnant, yeah, and the stuff in the bathtub and everything.

Wow. Yeah, it was crazy. It was crazy. The funny thing was, is that when we went to the Oscars, I got nominated for an Oscar for it, and Michael and I were asked to give an award early on, and they didn't allow me to go commercialize eight months pregnant, So they paid for us to go out in a private plane. Not a big one. We had to kind of hop across the country. But when I came on stage with Michael to give out the award, I was enormously pregnant.

And everybody started laughing. Oh, because it was. And it was because in the movie, she says, I'm pregnant. And nobody believed her. That's hilarious. That would have been a very funny joke if you hadn't been pregnant. That would have been genius. Yeah.

That is so incredible. And it's funny how, I guess, the press got hold of that fact that you were pregnant. And it was a big part of the, I don't know, did you get shit for it? Or how did that, I mean. Oh, they wanted to know who the father was. Oh, yeah. I went through some shit. Uh-huh.

Yeah. It's very interesting to watch Fatal Attraction Now. And I have to tell you something. I read somewhere or heard you say in an interview and prepping for our conversation that you wanted to tell that story from her point of view. Yeah. And I get to tell you to tell that story from her point of view. That is such a good idea for a film. I mean, for real.

Yeah, because she really was a tragic figure. Tragic. Tragic. She was a totally tragic figure. But because she was basically out of control because she desperately needed help, she was now considered one of the great villains. of the 20th, you know, that era of movies. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I was playing her, and I did research with two different psychiatrists. Yeah. Took them the script. They read the script. And I said, my first question was, is the bunny possible, boiling them? And they said, oh, yeah, yeah. Second one was, why? Why would, what would create that?

And specifically, when she's spying on the family, and they're giving, the father's giving the little girl the bunny. Yeah. Why does she run into the bushes and throw up? Now, you could say that she was pregnant. Yes. And may be sick from it. But she also could have been abused by her father

and made to do things that would have made her gag and throw up. Mm-hmm. And that was the woman I was playing. Mm-hmm. Who had been abused by her father. well that was evident i mean it was evident to me your take on her was so um sympathetic and it was so artfully crafted and i mean it's incredible how the movie ends on the tight shot of the family photo and michael hugs didn't originally end i know i know it didn't uh originally

it ended with your character killing herself listening to madame butterfly and he goes going to jail. Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. But it was so, it was so disturbing for American audiences. It's so funny.

I played two characters that the audience wanted to get super punished. One of them was Alex Forrest. Not, not, you know, it's not enough that she kills herself. No, no, no. She has to be shot. Uh-huh. You know. In order to restore.

order to the family. It's a basic Greek tragedy. And that's why I'm saying, I think this would be, to your point, an amazing story to revisit now. Let's tell this story now, again, from her point of view. Anyway, I'm all for it. Let's do it together. I would do that with you in a heartbeat, for real. I think it would be fascinating. Fascinating. Yeah. Who is the second character that was so hated in your view? Madame de Mertory in Dangerous Liaisons. Oh, yes. Ooh! In the book, which is next to Dracula, the most terrifying book I've ever read, and it's just a series of letters. In the book, at the end, she has smallpox all over her face. And when that story was first published, which was

in the years before the French Revolution, it was banned. And he was able to publish it. Why was it banned? Do you know? I think it was against the aristocracy. Yeah, okay. They didn't kind of come off very well. Yeah. No, they don't.

But so he added this thing where she not only was reviled by society, but nature had also ruined her beauty and her power by giving her a small box. You don't see that in the film, but I knew that that was the character that was on the pages of the book. We actually shot a scene of her at the guillotine having her head cut off.

Oh, no way. Yes. I still have the wig, like this little kind of thing like all your hair had been cut off. And Stephen Fares was so scared of, I mean, it was pretty free. to put your head down in a guillotine. And even they say, oh, no, no, we have, you know, it's not going to go all the way down.

It was really freaky. So your grandmothers were a big influence in your life. And you talk about, you mimicked one of your, I guess your father's mother scolded a famous baseball commentator about not writing a thank you note. Oh, my God. Yes. What was that famous Yankee? Phil Rizzuto. So can you tell that story what she did?

What happened? Oh, my God. My grandma would sit in her French, her little French stuff chair and watch baseball. She watched the Yankees and then she watched the Dallas Cowboys. But she was a huge Yankee fan. And she did needlepoint. And she needle pointed. Phil Rizzuto, a pillow.

I don't know if it had, you know, P-A-P-R on it or the Yankee logo. I'm not sure what. And somehow, she got it to him. I don't know how. And then she never got a thank you note, which for Granny was, you know. Yeah. Thank you notes, sir. Critical.

I still carry around, you know, things that I say, I have to write a thank you note. And a year later, I still have the letter. I have to write a thank you now. But she got him on the phone and asked him why he hadn't written her a thank you note. It's hilarious. Is it her kind of meltdown that you were channeling in, I guess it's reversal of fortune? Is that right? Yes.

Yeah. Yes. Well, Granny Close grew up. She was born in Galveston, Texas. And then after the flood, they moved to Houston. And I heard her. And this was when she was older, and I think I was maybe still in college. No, I think I'd started my career.

And I was visiting her one weekend. And I heard her be really rude to her maid. And I was so angry. And I called her on it, and she had that meltdown in front of me. It was horrifying. And so I called my father, who was a doctor, I said, I think granny's losing it. I just this thing happened and it was really upsetting I've never seen anything like that and he said take her to see he had to doctor friend in New York so the next day or two days later I got granny and she was you know a little delicate after that I mean you know kind of maybe subdued a little bit and I got her in the car and we were driving down the merit park and I started look kept looking over and she literally was it was almost like like science fiction.

She was putting herself together again. So by the time we got to the doctor's office, it was, oh, hello, how it's so lovely to see you again. And it was he couldn't say anything because he didn't see anything. And I was just there going, I don't believe it. Oh, my God. When you say she was putting herself together, you were just seeing her sort of mentally get her game together?

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Going down the West Side Highway thinking, oh. Anyway, it was extraordinary. It was extraordinary. And she, you know, hello, darling. With her arm out.

Hello, darling. She charmed the pants off of him. Yeah. Oh, you know, it's funny you say that because I remember my husband's grandmother who had dementia actually. And when she was taken to see her doctor, she would immediately start flirting with him. And she would, you know, she was like 90.

And he would say, so tell me, Evelyn, what have you been doing? What have you been up to? And she said, well, I've been playing tennis and I ride my bike. And, you know, it was complete bullshit. Do you draw, do you, do you, when you're working on character, I would assume that all of these female characters in your life and your family, there's, It's a treasure trove of stuff. Yeah, no way it is. I mean, Granny Close was that, you know,

I'm pounding my thighs like she did. And because you have to do it over and over in a film, my thighs were black and blue by the time we finished. So that was Granny. But me and I, my mother's mother, Jenny Fields, my first film. Yeah. When she gets older.

Yes. That was Meemai. Really? That was me, my. Yeah. And what was it about her that you were, I don't know, channeling or using. I don't know if I've done it, but Mima had the great trait of making everybody that she talked to feel like they're the only person in the room.

She can see her, really? That is fascinating. And then what? So that element of her is what I wanted Jenny Fields to have. And Jenny Fields for our listeners is, of course, from the world according to Garp. And you know who's like that in my life is my mother is like that, almost to a fault in conversation. She can, you know, we're in a cab and she starts talking to the driver about his life. And the next thing you know, we're not getting out of the cab at our stop because she's...

That's what my grandmother would do. Yeah. It's a lovely trait. It's a marvelous trait. And also, by the way, it's a very curious way of living. I mean, in other words, you're using curiosity in your... life in a very positive way because, you know, everybody has a story. Everybody has an interesting story. Just, you know, get off your phone and just ask people questions, find out about them,

and you'll have a wonderful time. I know. Yeah. It's so, so interesting. Did you learn about being a grandmother from your grandmothers? Not really. No? Let's see. Granny Close. She would drag us to Episcopal Church, which was always something we didn't really enjoy that much. And she could be scary. Yeah. I had pigeon-toed. I was very, I'm naturally pigeon-toed. And so when I was little, I'd go over to Stanford, Connecticut to the shoe store, and they'd make me these brown lace-up shoes with, they'd make the heel so they're supposed to turn your foot out.

It didn't work. But it was granny saying, turn your feet out. Turn your feet out. You know, that finally, I mean, she was, make up your mind. Make up your mind. It's all good stuff, but, yeah, a little scary. A little scary. And my other grandmother, they're both fascinating woman.

My grandmother more, both my grandmother's married older divorces, who knew each other, actually. So they were younger, very beautiful women, married older men. My grandfather used to take these black and white little movies and you could see Mimai dancing the Charleston in the snow on snowshoes. She was supposed to be, she was just like beautiful and funny and wonderful. But she was in her own world, Mimai. She was wonderful, but she was definitely in her own. I mean, it was Mimai that I would, you know, we'd be over there

and she'd be playing canasta, you know, with three other women and the clink of their, of their jangly, you know, bracelets, drinking dubinet and smoking. Yes. I know. My grandmother was a big drinker and smoker. And, you know, to this day, that smell of scotch and cigarettes makes me very calm. It's very cozy. I know. We'll be right back with more of my cozy conversation with Glenn Close after this quick break.

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Instead of military rearmament after the war is supposed to be moral rearmament. And everybody in this, you're supposed to live by four standards, absolute honesty, absolute purity, absolute unselfishness,

and absolute love. And you're supposed to have what they call guidance every morning, which is everybody had a little book and you're supposed to have guidance from God. So if you're a kid, you know, I mean, I'm sure the Catholic Church does it. It's all confessional and blah, blah, blah.

But you're supposed to live by the four standards and the guidance of God. What does purity mean, by the way? What the hell does purity mean? What is absolute purity? No, I don't know. Well, for me, it meant you just, you couldn't, you're supposed to look at yourself in the mirror.

You felt guilty if you wanted to. wanted to be pretty. Oh, my God. It was so fucked. Yeah. And I know you were living in Switzerland, and I mean, I can only imagine what that must have been like for you. Can you talk about that shift at age seven?

Yeah. Well, we didn't move immediately to Switzerland. What happened is that they met this group. Mm-hmm. And I think they were father. for a group like this because they were in a very unhappy place in their marriage and they gotten married when they were 18 and you know dad went to the war and came back he was in medical school so and I I do think that people don't get sucked up by these cults if they are whole

people in healthy relationships I just yeah I I don't believe that would happen but my parents were fragile that way but anyway so the first thing they did was sell the little cottage and they actually moved into that's when we moved into hermitage farm which is just you know maybe four miles away was my other grand parents house and then they eventually sold that house and gave all the money to moral rearmament and we went living it used to be a a center in mount kisco and that center had been in a farm owned by one of Vanderbilt's granddaughters, I think. It was a gorgeous piece of property.

And there was a big house where Uncle Frank, Frank Bookman, who started it, would stay if he was there, all kept, you know, spick and span by spinsters. It was very misogynistic, this whole thing. But we were moved into this cottage, which was a good-sized house. And various people will come in and take care of us if our parents were away on missions. So it was from there that we went to Switzerland. I see. In 1960, we went to Switzerland. I see.

In Switzerland, there's a huge, it had been a very fancy hotel in the 20s going to the war called Mountain Houses above Montreux in the Lake of Geneva. and they made that their world headquarters, or one of their headquarters. So those are probably the most destructive years. But wait a minute, how old were you? I was in seventh grade. I see. When we went over there. Got it.

So you were probably 13. Yeah. Because when I came back, I went into 10th grade. I see. So we were there for two years. Okay. But so Mountain House was vast. Big kitchens, little dining rooms, there was always Frank's dining room.

Frank's dining room had all the best china, the best crystal, the best flatware, the best linens. Everything was just, and I remember this. You know, and I was what's, how old are you when you're seventh, eighth grade? I think you're like 13. To be asked to set the table in Frank's dining room, you know, to fold the napkins. it was like, oh, God. I think the worst was for me when we were still living in Greenwich on John Street

and my parents were leaving on a mission. And I was really upset and I had a little bedroom on the third floor of the house and I went running up crying. I didn't want to say goodbye to them. And then I looked out the window and I saw that the car was there or the taxi or whatever.

it was and that they were leaving and I ran to this little cupboard where I had like art material and I got out a piece of paper and I wrote on this piece of paper Jesus says you should go and I wrapped it around pencil and threw it out the window and I saw my father pick it up and read it and kind of look in and how warped is that let's just think about that for a minute I felt guilty for letting my parents basically abandoned us, which they did over and over and over again. I mean, and yet it was Jesus telling me, yes, it's okay to leave me. I'm seven, but go ahead and go change the world. And we'll be, you know, in the care of some girls probably being punished, you know, by having to go take care of someone's kids. Oh, poor Glenn. And it seems

tiny you know we weren't beaten we always had clothes we always had food so i've in the way it's been very hard to come to terms with it because of that because i wasn't sexually or physically abused but i had it was terrible emotional and psychological abuse terrible terrible and it's still it's still with me i can see it it's absolutely still and i can feel it it's it's a it's a horror it's a It's terrible. The funny thing is, it's not funny, but my dad was sent away to school, to a boarding school in England. His dad was directed the American hospital in Paris, so basically they were in Paris, but he was sent when he was seven years old. Yeah, that was the norm.

And so that, and my dad, apparently, he was a twin, he had a twin brother, and it was my dad who would cling to the car, have to be pulled off, you know. Oh. And I think he was, he had been abused and abandoned. I mean, why, how can you not feel abandoned when that happens? And, you know, never to be visited. So we're talking about generational trauma that carries, that is. Yeah, so he, they did that to their children. Right.

And so can we talk about forgiveness? Because I know it's something you've worked on, I'm sure. How to get there? How do you get there? Do you get there? Well, I had this a little bit of a revelation when I had my new one, when Annie was little. Yes. I remember exactly when it was. It came back from Dangerous Liaissance. My parents lived in Wyoming, and they had built a house down from their little. little house that where my first, my grandmother Moore, lived and died, and then my grandmother close, who was not someone who ever thought she'd end her days in Big Piney, Wyoming,

but she was there. And she, you know, she had been somebody to contend with. But my dad was taken care of her. And I went down to visit her, and she was almost in the fetal position. You know, I don't know how long after that visit she died, but she was there, you know, breathing. in her bed, asleep, and I stood over her with my child, and I had this thought that the burden of forgiveness is always with the child. It's whether the child will be able to forgive. Oh, my God, that makes me cry. Because the person who's been wronged is the one who needs to forgive, and that parents will always make mistakes, some bigger than others.

But I think that that is where that's the burden of forgiveness. And you either, I asked my mom to come with me to some, you know, when I was seeing a shrink because I wanted to ask her some questions with a shrink there who could kind of, you know, help facilitate it. And she did. And I, I know. I learned about some things, you know, what it was like when dad came back from the war and blah, blah, blah. And I started to really understand them and I forgave them.

I had another incident with my dad. He was an extraordinary man, but he had no emotional vocabulary as a father. And I spent three days writing this letter, finally telling him what I thought of him as a father. And it was so strong that I read it to my siblings and to my mother before I sent it to dad because I wanted them to know. And the thing that it did for me. Yeah. Was that I was immune to his power over me in that way. I had made myself immune.

He went to see a shrink that he knew for about three sessions. And then he got cured? And then he got cured. He got cured. Listen, you joined this group up with people. It was an offshoot of MRA. Okay. So it was like a Christian, a singing group, a little bit, right, a little, very popular, by the way, because I remember from when I was little, I don't know how I saw it, but I did.

And the up with people's song, I vaguely remember. Oh, and I have to tell you something. So my husband, Brad, grew up in Santa Barbara, California. His dad was an Episcopal minister here in California. And the Up With People folks used to come and they would stay at the rectory while they performed at the Granada Theater. Were you touring with them? Did you ever perform at the Granada Theater? What year was that, do you know? Oh, I'm going to say it was in. Because I toured with them from 1965 to 1970 for five years.

Yeah. It would have been during that time. You don't have any memory. I mean, it's possible, I'm telling you right now, Glenn, it is possible that you stayed at Brad's childhood home with up with people. Well, we always stayed with families. Yeah. I guarantee it. How bizarre would that be?

Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. God, I know. So bizarre. Girls bus, boys, bus. You know, you weren't supposed to do anything. And, of course, because I hadn't ever done anything, Kiss, Lord knows, hadn't had sex.

I'm sure kids were doing it just left right and center. But you, no, but you were sticking to the absolute. I didn't know anything else. Uh-huh, right. Yeah. All of this baggage, did it make it scary then to become a mom, or did you get more clarity when you became a mom? Or all of the above, I suppose. I don't think I dragged a lot of it.

into my experience of being a mother. I had other things to content with. I'm very blessed to have, I think, an extraordinary human being for a daughter. Oh, how wonderful. She is so rooted. I'm just like, blah. Boy, you don't. I always will be.

You don't seem like that to me. You don't. I mean, you've been through a lot, and you haven't, it seems to me anyway, you have an understanding of where you've been. You're probably still peeling back layers on it. More and more. Oh, yeah, I think, I think more and more, more and more. But just, you know, I've been married three times. Yeah.

And I shouldn't have married any of them. But I had an empty toolbox. And so I've had to try to fill that two box as far as human relations and certainly relationships in a marriage with nothing really as a model. So I've made a lot of mistakes. And I think that that, in my generation of my family, we have a lot of divorces. but our kids I think

knock on wood but it looks like they have found literally life partners and I think that's one of the things that maybe what we went through

they're saying they've seen it and they know that they can do something else so that makes me that makes me happy as well it should as well it should

yeah but I think it's sad that I was so unknowing I mean so unknowing So, you know, always chose the wrong. Yeah, that is sad. But this is not a sad story you're telling. This story, you know, it's triumphant. No, and I feel so alive, but I do think that one of the great gifts, possible gifts in life, is to have a life partner.

It's tricky, of course, but, you know. Yeah, it can be tricky for sure. but let's talk a little bit more about your career. It's just so remarkable. I can't get over how long it's been and it's so varied. And I know that you've said that earlier in your career, you were driven by a real need to prove yourself. Of course, I totally understand that drive.

But at this point, do you still feel that way? No. I don't feel I need to prove myself. If anything, I still want to, I think, satisfy my creative urge. I mean, this movie that I just finished. Oh, right. It's a Hunger Games prequel, right?

Yeah. Yes. I play a character called Jucilla Sickle. And we had five distinct looks. And the collaboration that went into what those looks were going to be was just so much fun. You know, it was just so much fun. And I've, like, nothing I've ever done before because of the nature of who this character is and what she looks like. Well, tell me about that.

So I started thinking about that less this past summer. And there are certain characters that I've played that I've wanted to change my face in very subtle ways because I get distracted by it. I've lived in this face for a long time. Yeah, yeah. And it helps me find a character if I could just make little subtle changes. Albert Knobbs is one, and Mammaw in Hillbilly, Elegie is one. And also Summer Book. Yep, Summer Book.

The Summer Book, absolutely. Yeah. So Drusella, because she's so outrageous and written as outrageous. So I knew that I wanted a certain shape of my mouth. I love teeth. Started working with Matthew Mungle, who's retired, but he's kind of a buddy, you know, one of the great FX artists. Yeah. And so I got an idea about it.

I start by stuffing Kleenex or rolling it up and putting it under my lip and getting certain shapes. But how did you do the stretching sideways? Is that a post-production situation? No, no, no. How did they do it? It was my skin. In fact, the more we stretched, the wider my mouth got. So I thought I should have had a facelift in my contract.

Wow. No, it was extraordinary what it did to my face. and then I wanted like a little piggy nose and that's a technique that I've learned that I actually did for the first time with Matthew and now but now it's much easier that's a question of tape and then you put a prosthetic over it and then you know stretching your eyes up

and stretching this up yeah you're stretching the skin over your cheeks up and sort of pulling your lip up. God. I just, I did not look like myself. It was so fabulous. I'll show you a picture because they can't see it. Yeah. I'll sneak you a picture. Yeah, sneak me a picture. I want to see. Oh, no way. Yeah, that's me. No way. Okay, so I'm looking at this picture of Glenn, which I can't share with people, but it is, you are transformed. Yeah, and I'll show you another one. No. No, it's terrifying. You look terrifying. It is so scary. We are in for a treat, you guys. Oh, my God, the nose is incredible. Oh, I'm excited. Yeah. It's so much fun. You see,

it's just so much fun. This is all on Glenn is sharing pictures on her phone listeners. We are, and you can't see it. You have to wait. You have to. You have to. wait, but the weight is going to be worth it. It kind of is a, I'm looking at a drag show slightly here, too. I mean, it's wild. Well, I think a lot of my career is about populating gay Halloween parades. Yes. You are unrecognizable. You're unrecognizable. Yeah. Okay, one more break, and then we're back with the incredible Glenn Close. You've probably noticed it's been a rough year for, well, everything good in the world. Funding cuts have hit international aid hard. Programs are vanishing, organizations are closing. Options have been stripped from women who had few to start with. But here's a little good news. The lights are still. The lights are still. on at MSI reproductive choices. MSI provides contraception, safe abortion, and reproductive health care to women and girls around the world, often in places where no one else goes.

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guarantee. Get yours before the holidays at dell.com slash deals. Terms and conditions apply. See Dell.com for details. I want to touch, of course, on your work with mental health, and in 2015, you contributed to the book that your sister wrote about her struggle with mental health, mental illness in a book called resilience. And And how, I wonder, I know that you cared for your sister at a particular time of her suffering. And how did that experience sort of, oh, God, shape the way you live now, today compared to before? I know that's a heavy question, and I apologize for throwing it your way. but I think it's sort of an important one to talk about if you don't mind.

I think it's incredibly important to talk about. So Jessie came up to me on a summer day. She was just leaving my parents' house in Wyoming. And she said, I need your help. I can't stop thinking about killing myself. Oh. And that's the first. It's like, what?

this was complete news to you complete news to me did you know she was struggling at all this is your sister jesse okay my my younger sister jessie and she was always considered the wild one um she really fell through the cracks of her family and she writes about it in the most extraordinary way so honest in that book and she writes about her journey with bipolar disorder. She wasn't diagnosed until she was 51. Come on, to have to live with that. My father was a doctor, you know,

and we came from a culture, Greenwich, Connecticut, where nobody, if you went to a shrink, you certainly didn't talk about it. I see. And most people didn't go to a shrink. And little did we know that my grandmother's, brother. He lived with schizophrenia and was violent and put in the, you know, mental hospital numerous times. Another half-brother of my mother's died by suicide. So depression all through

the family. So when Jesse came up to me, it was such an act of courage or probably desperation, probably a little bit of both, but probably more desperation. Yeah. And we were able to help her. My mom and I, and she went to McLean Hospital outside of Boston. Her son had been diagnosed there. He had had a psychotic break. And nobody, I mean, what? I mean, what's that? She didn't know what was happening? Nobody. And even though, and I think back, I knew he was there. He stayed there for two years and it saved his life. But he didn't really. really know what it was. I went to visit him and it was kind of, you know, uncomfortable. Oh, God. And because we live in a society that wants to put everything under the rug behind the curtain. Don't talk about it. The neighbors might hear. So when Jesse and both of them came out, they told me that the stigma around mental illness

is just as bad as the illness is themselves. So while people are trying to recover, trying to understand, you know, how to deal with this chronic illness, they also have to deal with the fear of stigma. And my, for example, my nephew, he was kind of the glorious leader of the pack. He had his psychotic break.

Nobody came back. None of his friends came back, which is astounding to me because of fear, because of lack of understanding, you know, of what people are actually dealing with. Anyway, so we decided to try to do something about it, and they went on national television 2010 talking about the illnesses that they were living with. I mean, it was so brave.

So brave. Oh, I know. You just have to start talking. talking about it because it's for human beings and it's part of being human. I know. And talk about the work you do with your organization. So Bring Change Your Mind went into the schools and have developed now these clubs where kids go and it's peer to peer. You know, of course they have an advisor, but it's peer to peer kids talking about what they're dealing with.

The kids are amazing. They just blew me away. But, I mean, the simple thing is just start talking about it. If you see somebody acting, you know, not like themselves in a consistent way, go up and say if they're okay. If they say they are, you don't believe it, ask them again. And that's what these kids learn are these ways to help, help yourself and to help somebody next to you. So it's a gift that you've been able to take this with your family, suffering, which kind of, it sounds like, to a certain extent, prevalent, and morph it and

use it in ways that are so positive, so good on you, and good on Jesse, and good on her son Kalin. Yes. Yeah. Okay, I've taken up so much of your time, but this has been delightful, all caps, delightful. We always end on a couple of, like, really quick questions. Uh-huh. Let's see. Is there something you'd go back and tell yourself at 21? Oh, my God.

I was such a dork. You'd say, you're such a dork. Right now? I'd say such a dork. Pull yourself together. Oh, God. 21. I was still with up with people.

I went to college when I was 22. I was a freshman when I was 22. Oh. So in a way, I would say what I said to myself back then is get out of it. Get an education. Right. That's hilarious. Is there something that you would go back and say yes to?

Oh. Oh. After we did The Natural, Robert Redford invited me to a very romantic restaurant where we had dinner together and I was too clueless and

unknowing and unsure to even consider that I might have dated him Oh, my God. Yeah. But he found Billy, but yeah. And it's just because I didn't.

You didn't know. I didn't know. Didn't get it. I'm just going to let that sit there. That's incredible. But lucky you, you got to work with him. You lucky duck. Yeah, but how dorky was that.

Oh, my God. And I'm going to lastly ask you this. Is there something that you want to tell me about aging that I should know? Try to fall in love with your skin. Oh. I took a picture of the skin on my arm, which is kind of shocking. Because I love trees and I love the bark on trees. And I wanted to find a tree bark that looked like the skin of my arm.

would make me feel like I belong. Oh, Glenn. Oh. Because I think that's what's happening. Oh, my God. I love that. That makes me cry. I love it.

Oh. Thank you. Thank you, my dear. Lovely to talk to you. Lovely to talk to you. It's been heaven. Really appreciate it. Be well in Berlin. Take good care of your.

yourself. I will. You too. Oh, what a fantastic woman. God, I love her. Okay, let's call my mom. I can't wait to hear what she has to say about our conversation. Let's get her on the Zoom. Hi, Mommy. Hello. Look at you all pretty with your scarf and your lipstick. Oh, yes. Yeah, I put the scarf on this morning because one scarf can keep me warm all day.

Actually, it's totally true. Yeah, it's just amazing. And I put on lipstick just for you all. Oh, that's so nice. Too bad we're not videotaping. Well, that's okay. I want to impress you. I worked at that.

So, Mother, I talk to Glenn Close today, if you can even believe what I'm telling you. That is incredible. I mean, Glenn Close is just, I mean, is she real? I mean, she is real. She is so real. Different faces that you know her from, and she's so intense in all of the phases, right? Everything is just like, oh, that's got to be, she's got to be that. I mean, it's extraordinary how she's played such a wide swath of characters. But this is the thing about Glenn. She's saying she, there are a lot of women in her family that she, I'm not going to say mimics, but she draws from to play a whole host of her characters.

And she had a grandmother on her dad's side who was a real character with a massive temper. and Glenn tapped into playing her grandma a lot, specifically in reversal of fortune, she has a scene in which she's going absolutely bananas, having a tantrum, and she said she was just doing her grandmother. Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah, isn't that funny? So her grandparents had a big part in her life. Was your grandmother, by the way, Bessie, did she have a temper?

I don't remember you ever saying she did. No, I don't. The only time I saw her get angry was really at the end of her life when she was in a nursing home. It was awful, one of those old-fashioned nursing homes. Oh, no. They felt so terrible, and it was in Ohio. But anyway, they couldn't, she had no other place to put her. And so she said that people were coming in and stealing things from her room because they had to leave their room open at night to a certain extent or something. And so my mother and Myrna said, oh, no, they're not doing that, mother. They're not doing that.

And she looked at them and she said, you listen to me, girly girls. I know what I'm saying, and I've been robbed. And she was just completely, I never ever saw her in her life be like that. But at that time, she really let it rip. Wow. So that was it. So don't tell her what was happening in her life. Did your mom, my grandma Didi, did she have a bad temper?

I wouldn't exactly call it a temper, but when she could get mad, just mad. And when she was mad, she could say mean things. I think my mother grew up, one of five girls, and Myrna, her older sister, was sort of their babysitter. Right. And that's a bad thing to have happened because nobody likes the oldest one that's taken care of. And it's never a good scheme. And, oh, by God, to Myrna, her sister, she was terrible. They just squabble all the time.

And they were so different. And Myrna was very sort of scientific and spiritual. And my mother just made fun of her all the time. She did? Oh, yeah, made it terrible fun of her, including she wore those cotton stockings, you know, this sort of orange cotton stocking. Yeah, I remember those, Merner wearing those. Mother used to make fun at them.

She'd say, Myrna, the stockings are so terrible. Why do you wear them? And she hurt Merner's feelings, and Merner always took it. Right. But there was no theory allowed in my house. Right. But Glenn Close, what's her favorite part?

Does she have a favorite thing that she did? Or does she? Well, she's played, she loved being in Sunset Boulevard, which, you know, she did that on stage. But she's a workhorse. She is just going from one project. to the next, and she's making this movie that's coming out, and she plays a major character in it. And she was showing pictures on her phone to me over the Zoom of her character, which I'm sure for the audience was very frustrating because I was going, oh, my God, oh, my God, because

she has transformed her face. That's the thing I wanted to tell you that's so incredible about something. When she's thinking about a character, she thinks, you know, in my mind, when I'm thinking about a character, I think about it sort of emotionally. I don't know if I've ever told you this, but when I was playing Selena Meyer, whenever Selena would get sort of flummoxed or thrown off and she would kind of stammer, she went, well, no, it's just it was like that. I'm doing you. Did you know that? Smooth-smoking me, smooth-looking me. Are you kidding me? That. I think I'm the coolest thing in the block.

You are, Mommy, unless you get flustered. Unless I get flustered more often than not. And so now, blah, blah, blah, blah. Exactly. But you're not a bitch like Selena Myers, a horrible person. That, I can tell you, I did not channel you for that one. I sort of understood her. Yeah, maybe she was a little familiar. Oh, shit. Well, anyway. Okay, Mom, well, thank you so much for being available to chat about the wonderful Glenn Close.

Oh, well, I loved our chat. I love all of our chats, and this one was particularly chatty. Yes, it was. Okay, I love you so much. I love you so much, honey. And thank you for calling and be in touch. Okay, love you. Bye.

So long. There's more wiser than me with Lemonada Premium. You can now listen to every episode, ad-free, plus subscribers also get access to exclusive bonus interview excerpts from each guest. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts. Head to Lemonada Premium.com to subscribe on any other app or listen, ad-free on Amazon music with your prime membership. That's Lemonata Premium.com.

Make sure you're following Wiser Than Me on social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok at Wiser Than Me. And we're on Facebook at Wiser Than Me podcast. We're also on Substack at wiser than me. Substack.com. Wiser than me is a production of Lemonada Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louis-Dreyfus. The show is produced by Chrissy Pease and Oha Lopez.

Brad Hall is a consultant. producer, Rachel Neill is consulting senior editor, and our SVP of weekly content and production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer, and me. This episode was mixed by Johnny Vince Evans and Ivan Karayev with engineering help from James Barber, and our music was written by Henry Hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schley. and of course my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser than me wherever you get your podcast.

And if there's an old lady in your life, listen up.