Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus - Julia Gets Wise with Governor Janet Mills

Episode Date: May 20, 2026

This week, Julia sits down with 78-year-old Janet Mills, Maine's first female governor, first female DA, and first female AG in the state's history. Governor Mills, who recently suspended her Senate campaign, takes Julia behind the scenes of that legendary White House moment when she looked Trump in the eye, said "see you in court," and won. Julia also learns how Janet navigated the ups and downs of becoming a stepmom to five young girls, and what her Republican family said when she became a Democrat. Plus Julia and her 92-year-old mom Judy talk about the broad appeal of Mary Oliver and Judy's own journey to becoming a Democrat. Follow Wiser Than Me on Instagram and TikTok @wiserthanme and on Facebook at facebook.com/wiserthanmepodcast. Find us on Substack at wiserthanme.substack.com. Keep up with Janet Mills @governorjanetmills on Instagram. Pre-order the latest book from Julia’s mom Judy Bowles here: https://finishinglinepress.com/product/they-spoke-of-the-river-by-judith-bowles/   Find out more about other shows on our network at @lemonadamedia on all social platforms. Joining Lemonada Premium is a great way to support our show and get bonus content. Subscribe today by hitting 'Subscribe' on Apple Podcasts or lemonadapremium.com for any other app. For exclusive discount codes and more information about our sponsors, visit https://lemonadamedia.com/sponsors/.  For additional resources, information, and a transcript of the episode, visit lemonadamedia.com.

Lemmonado. Dear listeners, before we get into today's episode, I want you to know it includes a conversation about domestic violence. Please take care. If you or someone you know needs support, text begin to 88788 to reach the National Domestic Violence Hotline. So occasionally, I'll get completely sucked into a show on what we used to call TV. And, you know, often it's a guilty pleasure, which is perfect when I just want to veg out after a busy day. But there is one show that I just cannot get enough of these days. Have you seen Love on the Spectrum?

If you haven't, you're in for a real treat. The simplest explanation is this. It's a reality dating show that follows young people on the autism spectrum as they navigate dating and relationships. It started as an Australian series, and now it has a U.S. version that is a big, huge hit on Netflix. You know, most dating shows, most reality shows are all about drama and catiness and vulgarity, and bad behavior is really rewarded, and discourse is, well, it's not discourse at all. I honestly, I can't stand most of them. But this show is the opposite. It's warm and earnest, and more than anything, it's kind.

It was co-created and is directed by an Australian guy named Kean O'Cleary. Though I understand some of the criticism of the show, it can be manipulative. The music is too bouncy and the voiceover is kind of infantilizing. But I can't help but love it because of the show's unfailing kindness. If you tune in to learn about individuals with autism, you certainly will do that, and that's valuable, I think, especially if you don't have a personal relationship with somebody on the spectrum. But pretty quickly, it becomes more about how honest and direct these people are in heightened situations. They say exactly what they're feeling in the moment. So, you know,

I find that I put my little anxieties and so on aside, and I really get joyfully caught up in what I think is genuinely trying to be a respectful, wholesome, and authentic. portrayal of dating and navigating love and attraction and, you know, life. I think that ultimately the kindness that the show expresses is what makes it so popular. You know, with the cruelest, crudest possible political leaders currently empower and expressions of their cruelty embraced by so many, a little bit of kindness goes a long way, you know, it's good medicine. I mean, because people need kindness and calm and bravery in the face of horrible things and horrible people. And we do see some of it these days. I mean, we've seen it in protests, in comedy.

And even by some people, too few, but some people in politics. You remember when Trump tried to blackmail Governor Mills of Maine? He threatened to illegally withhold all federal child nutrition funds unless she complied with his executive order banning transgender athletes from women's sports. And she said simply and directly to the president of the United States in the White House on camera, see you in court. And she did see him in court, and she won immediately and decisively. And by the way, there were two transgender athletes competing at any level in Maine at that time, two.

See you in court indeed. Calm and kindness over cruelty and gross barbarity. I think there's a huge appetite for that. And we see that abundantly on love and the spectrum. And then I hope we try to implement it in our own lives. I mean, it seems very simple, but of course, it is not. How happy I am then that today we get to have a conversation with Governor Janet Mills. I'm Julia Louis Dreyfus, and this is Wiser than me.

the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. Our guest today has some serious Republican roots. She is the granddaughter of a Republican Maine state legislator, the daughter of a Republican Maine state legislator, and the sister of a Republican Maine state legislator. Imagine her family's reaction when she dropped out of college and moved to San Francisco during the summer of love, hitchhiked across Spain, reading Garcia-Lorca's,

poetry to whoever picked her up, worked in a psychiatric ward back in San Francisco, and then, God forbid, registered as a Democrat in law school. And that was just the start. She was the first woman elected DA in all of New England, the first and only female attorney general, and in 2018, it's 71. She became Maine's first female governor earning more votes than any candidate in the state's history running on the Democratic ticket. By that point, someone in her family must have become a Democrat. I'll have to ask her that. During the pandemic, Maine had the oldest population in the country,

which meant the highest stakes, the hardest math, and the most wrenching decisions. Governor Janet Mills moved fast, issued early restrictions, and called her sister, Dr. Dora Mills, a physician who had run the state CDC for 15 years, and said, Explain this to me. Is it really any surprise that Maine ended up with one of the lowest death rates in the nation? Then in February 2025, in front of the nation's governors, Trump pointed at Janet Mills and issued an ultimatum, ban transgender athletes or lose your federal funding.

She said four words, see you in court. The T-shirts were selling nationwide by the end of the week. Later, she said that in that moment, her father, a World War II veteran, who taught her exactly how to stand up to a bully was the first person she thought of. God, I love it. She is a published poet, has kept a journal almost every single day

since she was five years old, and as a grandmother of five, please welcome the governor of Maine and a woman who is so much wiser than me, Janet Mills. Thank you, Julia. Thank you. That's very flattering. I think I'll just sign off now. It is very flattering, but it's all,

It's all true and it's all wonderful. I'm so happy to talk to you today. So first of all, are you comfortable if I ask your age? Sure. My age is very much public record. I'm 78 and three and a half months. All right. I'm 78 going on 79. You're 78 and a quarter. Seventy eight and a quarter. Seventy eight going on 52 or something. How old do you feel? I feel most days I feel about 44 and a half. Oh, that's interesting. Some days I feel older. Yeah, I don't feel 78. Yeah.

I'll know what that means a year from now when I'm a year older because 78 doesn't feel like anything one way or the other. But I'm interested to know why you said 44 and a half. Just picking a figure. 44 is a good year, I think. I was married and I was working hard and I was raising five children, five daughters. Yeah. I married a widower with five who had five young daughters. Yeah.

Yes. That was challenging. So it was a busy time. It was a busy time. And now it's a busy time, too. So what would you say is the best part about being your age at 78 and a quarter? Not giving a shit about most anything. Yeah.

I love it. I mean, seriously. What are they going to do to you? You take a stay in a position and you offend somebody or somebody disagrees with you. Okay, so what? Yeah. So they disagree. What's the worst that can happen?

Right, exactly. What's the absolute worst that can happen? Right. Not much, really. Have you always felt that way, by the way? Or have you come to that with age more firmly? More firmly with age because I've always been pretty cynical. Oh, really?

Yeah. And a bit self-disperaging, I would say. But I think I've become more Ksar-sera in my older years. Oh, nice. Not everything is a tragedy. If one of the girls stays out all night, don't worry about it. don't worry about it. They'll survive like I did in my teenage years. And, you know, things happen. And here you are, the governor. Here I are. Here I are. Here I are the governor. Yeah.

Last time we saw each other, we were at the, at the DNC in Chicago, 2024. And I had the, just so our listeners know, I had the great honor of interviewing the eight Democratic female governors. That was wild. We had. That was great. Wasn't it? Yeah, fun. It was fun. And I was just rewatching it. And the fun of that group came across even in the sort of shitty YouTube version of it. What struck me about being with all of you is that all of you actually seemed to very much like each other and respect each other. There was just very good energy in the group. And I know that, you know, you all get together for dinners, you show up for each other, some big moments, you have group chat. Can you talk about the power of that bond that you share with those women in particular? Oh, yeah. I mean, they're some of my best friends, honestly. Really? And we stay in touch if we think there's something

interesting going on in somebody's life or in their political life or, you know, in their state. Somebody's had a flood or tragedy or something. We'll be calling and say, how can I help? How can I help? and the camaraderie we have is, I think, unmatched by any of our male colleagues. It's just that we're so small in numbers, and now we have Abigail Spanberger. Oh, yes. And Mikey Sherrill, of course. So that's, we're getting to be growing. We're growing the tent.

Growing the tent. And that's really exciting, too. But, no, we have on occasion, had pajama parties where we ate a lot of chocolate and drank red wine and talked about guys. and or girls. And we just get together a lot. I like that. Yeah. And I was, several of us were best, what do you call it?

Best women? Yeah, best women, whatever. At Michelle Louis-Gristin's wedding a few years ago, four years ago. We were all in Washington, D.C., and we were talking to the president then, President Biden, and Kamler stuck her head. She said, why don't you come over for dinner? It was Gretchen and Michelle and Kate Brown and me, I think. And so we went over the vice president's house for dinner.

And we're sitting around chatting and, you know, catching up. And Michelle announced that she was getting married. She and I were both widows, you know, a few years back. So we have this in common too. And Michelle is just for the purposes of our listeners, the governor of New Mexico. Yep. And Michelle announced that she was getting married to her wonderful guy, Manny. and we were all excited, and Kamala Harris said,

well, you have to have the wedding here at the Vice President's house, and you all have to be bridesmaids. And we went, oh, my God, bridesmaids. Oh, Lord. Well, we did come May a few months later. We all had a, well, we were going to buy these crazy outfits. I was the first to get one, and I said, do not buy it. It looks like a 1940s pinstrike pajama.

Anyway, we decided to wear a usual sort of two-piece black suit, pants suit, and a champagne-colored blouse and dressed up with flowers and jewelry. And we were maids of honor. So it was lovely out on the lawn of the other vice president's mansion. So cool. But listen, I don't understand what you were saying about the pinstripe suit. What do you mean? She had said, try this on as for everybody to wear?

No. Somebody was looking through magazines and found this horrible idea of ordering this polyester, aqua, two-piece thing with pinstripes down the legs. I got it in the mail. It was just gross. Oh, I see. And I said to the guys, cancel the order now. You'll regret it. So you were the guinea pig.

You were the guinea pig for the fashion guinea pig. I think I had to burn it. It was so awful. But anyway. Yeah, it does sound horrific. Hey, what have you learned from those women about leadership? Could you identify one thing you might have learned from them? Or maybe they learned from you.

Oh, well, who knows? I think we've all learned a bit from each other. In the past, you've said something about humor, that humor is sort of the great... It's the glue. Uh-huh. Between you all? It's the glue to many relationships, I think. Yeah, boy, I do too.

Particularly important one there, because like during the pandemic, things were going so, oh, my God, they were just terrifying. And, of course, Charlie Baker was governor of Massachusetts and Phil Scott, Governor Vermont, and Sununu, Governor New Hampshire. So I had these three Republicans I was always talking to in New England at that time. But then I was talking to my gal friends too, said, what are you doing about PPP? What are you doing about PBE? How are you getting this and that? The other thing.

And so we were all gabbing about how we could best, you know, save lives. Yeah. And travel restrictions and all those things. Some of them worked. Some of them didn't work so much. But we were sharing anecdotes too and sharing. Some of it was funny. You know, I was on TV a lot.

and I would get notes from people and I would write them back at night. I'd be alone at the mansion, the Blaine House, and I'd write people back notes. And I got this one note from a woman who said, Governor Mills, I support what you're doing. I whole lot of support your efforts. But Sister Rose is right. Sister Rose was right. Gratitude is a big deal.

I said, so I wrote her back. Thank you for your note. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Keep the faith. And then I said, who the hell is Sister Rose? And I talked to somebody in my office, and I said, who's she talking about? He goes, well, you know, you start with all these pithy things. Your press conferences with some little quote from Mr. Rogers or, you know, some movie that your granddaughter watched.

The day before Thanksgiving, you did a press conference, and you quoted the famous statesman philosopher Cicero, who did say, gratitude is the highest, highest virtue and the mother of all others. So from then on, people in my office were saying, what Sister Rose tell you to do this week, huh? Huh? What's Sister Rose advising you? So, Cicero. That's sweet. That's really good.

It's time to take a break. My conversation with Janet Mills continues in just a moment. And by the way, we just launched a Wiser than Me newsletter where you can get behind the scenes details from my conversation. with Janet and more. You can subscribe now at wiser than me.substack.com. You'll get photos, videos, letters from me. Think exclusive bonus snippets, glimpses behind the scenes of the making of the podcast, a real deep dive into every guest, plus a place to connect with other wiser than me listeners. I hope you subscribe at wiserthammead.substack.com and stick around to see what we have in store. We'll be right back.

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I'm wondering, what is your honest take about how you lead differently than certain men that you've watched lead, do you think? Well, I try to put my ego aside. You know, you talked about that moment. Do you think men don't do that very much? Not as much. They hesitate. But that moment in the White House a little over a year ago when Donald Trump said, you know, I or we are the law, the federal law, I thought, oh, that's not right. But the headline the next day was, this was what really shocked me. The headline in the paper was, something happened in the White House yesterday that's never happened before. Someone stood up to Donald Trump, President Trump, to his face. And I thought, why hasn't that happened before? Yeah, that's what I want to know. That's a normal thing in leadership.

You want people to be comfortable talking with you and sharing concerns and objections and alternative opinions. And that's what you want. You want to invite dialogue, right? Obviously, he doesn't. But I think that's, and he's not typical. No, he's not typical. But talking about that moment, will you set the scene for us? I've heard you've described the moment at the White House.

You're at what is a typical gathering of governors. Will you explain how all this stuff came down just for our listeners? And then I want to ask you some questions about it. Sure. It was just coffee at the White House, which is the usual gathering for the National Governors Association, White House visit. And he had gone on rambling on for about an hour and a quarter or something. and a speech that was more or less left over from his campaign complaining about Joe Biden and all these things.

It was really rather obnoxious. So, I mean, I was texting my friends saying, can we just get up and leave because this is not productive. We're not sharing information about what's going on in the states or the federal government. And that's how normally it would have been done that meeting? Normally you have a conversation. Yeah, and he kept the press there. I didn't understand at the time.

The national press usually comes zooming in. They stay for five minutes. The president says something, and then they leave. Then you have a real conversation with the president. Yes. I see. You actually, and cabinet members who were there sitting with you, and you have it, and

actually I had a good conversation with a couple cabinet members earlier that morning, but anyway, he went on and on, and the press was still there and lining the walls, and then he starts talking about transgender athletes and some boxer in the Olympics who he thought was really a man, but it was a woman, and he claimed it was really a man. I thought, oh, this is insane? Then he turns on me, you know, he says, is Maine here? He wasn't talking to anybody else. else. And I thought, okay, I'm here. Yep.

You're going to follow my executive order. And I thought, executive waters aren't the law, whatever it is he's talking about. So I said, I'm going to follow state and federal law. I know what state law is. I signed it. And he said, well, you better follow my executive order or you're going to lose all your federal funding. And I thought, that doesn't seem right either. I said, I'm going to follow state and federal law. He said, this was the jaw-dropping thing to me. He said, well, I or we are the federal law. I'm going to knowing or not.

You know, I think I was hearing my father's voice in the back of my head. He was a seventh generation manor who stood up for people who couldn't stand up for themselves. And he used to say to me when I was a kid, just stand up, stand up for people who can't stand up for themselves. And he would say, you've got to stand up to bullies in this world because if you don't, they just never quit. And I think maybe that was in the back of my head. And I said, hey, see you in court. I wasn't going to stand there and argue with the President of the United States over something absolutely ridiculous, like I am the law. Wasn't that Louis XIV who said that in France?

You know, La Lois, Le Lois, Cé moi. Right. Anyway, so that's what I did. And I didn't think anybody heard me at the time, but I guess the microphones were on. So, and then a few weeks later, he tried to take away our funding for the school lunch program, of all things. I thought, well, that's bizarre. So consulted with the Attorney General of Maine. We went to court, and within a week we had a court order against the federal government,

temporary restraining order saying, can't do that from a Republican-appointed judge from Bangor Maine. So we got a court order and they stood down. But it was insane. Why would you punish 170,000 school kids take away their school meal, the federal funding for school lunch program because you disagree with the governor in the state of Maine and the legislature on transgender athletes of whom there were, I think, two at that time. in the public schools. Out of 40,000 public school athletes who were two transgender students who were competing. I mean, it was huge repercussions from that moment and lots of threats

and obviously hundreds of millions of dollars in federal funding was on the line. Was there ever a moment you thought, I'm guessing I know the answer to this, but where you thought, what have I done? Of course, you didn't really do anything. You just said, I didn't do anything. I didn't do anything. The Social Security Administrator, said he was going to change the rules in Maine and make kids come in person to an office to sign up. Now, you know, you have an automatic sign-up when kids are born.

They're automatically going to the system. You don't have to run down to the office with an infant and sign them up. But he was going to change the rules. He was going to do this and that. The other thing, somebody said, why would you do that? He said, because I'm, quote, pissed off at Janet Mills

and how she treated the president. I'm really? How I treated the president? Look, any fifth-grade civic student knows that the president doesn't make the laws. The chief executive doesn't repeal laws, amend laws or create laws by executive order or press release or tweet. It's the job of the Congress to enact laws. And his job is to take care that the laws be faithfully executed. He hasn't got that memo yet, I guess. It doesn't seem like he's following that rule. But I mean,

like, you have to be having behind the curtain conversations with people on the other side of the aisle who are like rolling their eyes, right? I hear a lot of former leaders of the Republican Party. And some people who were chairs of the Republican Party here in Maine who have absolutely deserted the MAGA Republican Party. They don't want anything to do with it. And that's very disturbing. Look, when I was growing up, one of my heroes was a woman from 20 miles down the road, Margaret Chase Smith.

Yeah. She was a good family friend. She was the first female senator, wasn't she? First woman to serve in both the House and Senate in the United States Congress. and in 1950 she stood up to Joseph McCarthy. Now, I was privileged to receive an award from the Robert F. Kennedy Senior and Ethel Kennedy Foundation last June.

And I was in that Kennedy Caucus firm where John F. Kennedy declared for, announced for president. And Robert F. Kennedy announced he was running for president. And I was in this amazing room thinking I was getting a little for glimped, you know, and I had to give a speech. And then I realized it was also the room where they held the Army McCarthy hearings in 1954 when the Senate finally took him down and censured him. But it was four long years after Maine's own Margaret Chase Smith had stood up to him on the floor of the Senate,

being the only woman in the Senate and a freshman at that. You know, no seniority just stood up and said, this is not what the Republican Party is about. The four horsemen of columnies, she said. And it gave her declaration of conscience speech. Why did it take them four long years to finally take him down? It's appalling. And then I thought, well, those are pretty difficult years, those years.

We don't think about them anymore. And then I thought, man, these are difficult years now. Yeah, they are. And they're not dissimilar. Yeah, there's tyranny there. And I think your, I'll see you in court comment, really in a lot of ways, was like the have you no sense of decency moment during the very shameful McCarthy hearings of 1954. I mean, it aligns for me just viscerally.

And I didn't know that about Margaret Chase. Yeah. I didn't know that four years earlier. I'm happy to hear about it. Your father, your grandfather, your brother, they were all elected Republicans, right? Yes. Oh, yes. My father was a country lawyer.

And then he became a U.S. attorney, Republican U.S. attorney for a bunch of years. but pretty liberal U.S. Attorney went after environmental polluters, labor law violators, things of that sort. So what was that like when you became a Democrat, you had dropped out of Colby College? What was the vibe like at home? Were they mad at you? I don't know, I didn't talk to them for quite a while. Oh, really? Oh, yeah. So, you know, I was a renegade.

I became the white sheep of the family, I say. You know, not the black sheep. But no, I was out marching in the streets against the Vietnam War. My brother had been deployed to Vietnam. So it was tough. Oh, boy, I bet that was tough time. I mean, do you have any advice for how people can talk with family or friends who are aligned differently politically?

Do you have thought about that? It's tough because you always want to argue, but you can't really argue with somebody who's dug in politically. You just can't talk politics with that person. So I tell a story when I was, because I did a lot of other stuff, before I ever came back to Maine and went to law school, roamed around, worked in San Francisco, Washington, D.C., Cambridge, Mass, hitched through Europe, you know.

Years later, my mother was on her deathbed in front of Maine, and I said to her, mom i want to apologize you know i know i haven't been the best daughter i can't imagine what i put you through drinking beer in high school skipping classes hanging out with the wrong crowd dropping out of college going to san francisco going months without speaking with you or dad and hitchhiking through europe with myself living in a strange city with a bad boyfriend all this stuff not putting my talents to use and disrespecting my family i said i just want to apologize and my mother She looked up and she said simply,

I don't remember a thing. Oh, yay! I don't know if it was an amnesty or amnesia, but I got an absolution. Did she have Alzheimer's or something? No, no, she had quit eating and drinking, and she was dying on her own terms. And I said, well, this is good.

This is absolution. I'll take it. Remember to apologize, though, whenever you can. Okay. Yeah, apologizing, there's something. a lot to be said for it. Yeah. And same for forgiveness, I would say.

And gratitude is the highest virtue and the mother of all others, said Cicero. Said Cisteros. What about during Watergate? I mean, what was your family's stance during that period of time? Because that was in my life, I was a very young teenager, and I remember that as being, like, we were crowded around the TV. And my dad was a total liberal Democrat and loathed Richard Nixon, loathed him. So I can only imagine what my dad would be doing right now. Yeah.

He's gone. But if he were here during this horrible Trump presidency, I can't even imagine. But what was your family's stance during Watergate and all that? Well, at the time, I mean, they were kind of easing out of the Republican ethos. And, of course, towards the end, they all became Democrats, I just got to say. When I started running for office, oh, yeah. They were very supportive. Oh, good.

And they were never, you know, they were died in the will of Republicans in the old-fashioned way, but they would never be MAGA Republicans. They believed in civil liberties and privacy and equal rights and due process, oddly enough, due process. And they did stand up for people who couldn't stand up for themselves. I was in law school at that time. and I went down to visit a boyfriend. I was outside the White House the night Richard Nixon resigned,

and I took some black and white photos somewhere where I have these photos because it was a weird vigil. And you could get closer to the White House back then. The security wasn't a big issue, but there were women with candles like praying and chanting. And then there were sort of hippies, sort of gallivanting around smiling and laughing. And there were people in business suits who were just,

oh, my God, what is this moment? What is this moment? This has never happened before. President has never resigned in disgrace. Yeah. And, you know, it's just an odd moment in history. And nobody knew what was going to happen next. It was a weird moment. Yeah. It was a weird moment. And it was, it felt like from my childlike brain, it felt like, oh, the good guys prevailed, which in fact they did. They did. They did. Well, so then when did you, because I know you were, I mean, you yourself just described you were kind of all over the place when you were younger. Yeah, kind of. Yeah. And it sounds also like you were shy when you were little. So then when did you know you wanted to become a politician? Was there like a moment or no? I had no inclinant growing up or becoming a lawyer or going into politics at all.

Really? Nothing. No. And I, for a while, a couple of years, I was living with this guy that turned out to be an alcoholic. Well, he was an alcoholic. And he held a gun to my head. And so I left that, but that was a difficult relationship, difficult period. My father had come down, take me to lunch one time in Boston, and he said, you know, you could go to law school. I said, me? Law school? And he said, sure, you could. Why not?

I go, I don't know. I mean, there weren't any women lawyers, for Christ's sake. But I didn't do it then. I stuck with that boyfriend for another year, but I came back after I escaped that relationship. I came back to go to law school and came back to Maine. And I've been back ever since pretty much. The wanderlust had gone out of my system. Yeah, you worked it out.

Yeah. What about marriage? Was marriage something that you thought of for yourself, that you were sort of thinking, I need to find a mate? Or were you, by the time you went to law school, were you sort of more, I mean, what was your take on all of that? I had a different boyfriend in law school. That was a good relationship. But then we broke up two weeks before the bar exam.

I quit smoking, broke up with a boyfriend, and took the bar. exam. Triple header. How'd you do on the bar exam? I passed. Good. But did you think about it, marriage? I did. Sure, but, you know, when I became district attorney, that's an awkward place to have a social life, awkward position. You can't really date defense attorneys, you know, because they're on the other side of things. That would be weird. And so I, you know, took up other activities. like hiking and fishing and tennis. I took up tennis. I began taking tennis lessons. And then my tennis coach, the owner of the tennis studio, asked me out. His wife had died of cancer very suddenly, you know, after a few months' illness and left him with five kids. I thought, I don't know.

But we got to be good friends and later on we married. So what can I say? Things happen. And so how did you do that? I mean, all of a sudden you went from being, single to being married and the stepmother of five girls. I was in my late 30s when I got married, so, you know, no spring chick. I had no kids of my own, never married. My first date was staying, though. Oh, my gosh, he had not dated anybody since his wife had died, and he asked me to go to dinner. So I said, okay, pick me up as six.

Well, it was weird because I had this case of a domestic violence case, a woman I was prosecuting the husband. and he got out on bail, posted bail, and we put her in a shelter in Aub, and then we put her a shelter in a shelter in Portland. Then she still didn't feel safe, but put her in a shelter in New Hampshire. New Hampshire. And this was a Saturday afternoon.

I get a call from the state police, and they said, Emma's been found dead, shot in the head for Route 2 and Concord, New Hampshire. And I went, whoa, and he's on the loose, right? So I'm on the phone with the New Hampshire police telling them, look, this is what he looks like. He's got two boys back in Maine and Lewiston,

and this is what you've got to look for, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they said to me, we don't believe you. I go, why wouldn't you believe me? Well, who are you? I'm the district attorney for this county for crazy. I'm yelling at him. Of course, I know who did this, and this is blah, blah, blah. And he looks like this.

My God, they wouldn't believe me because there had never been a woman DA. in northeast United States, why would I be believable? Christ, so I'm yelling at them, honestly. I want this guy picked up and off the streets. He'd probably come back to Maine. He could do something else bad. And a knock comes on the door.

It's my poor tennis date. And he's got flowers. And I'm in the middle of this? And I'm, yeah, what do you want? Oh, no. He says, we're going to go to the job. dinner, I go, oh, yeah, let me, I'm in the middle of this thing, I'll be right with you. It was just like the worst time, you know, you want to see the true person.

Anyway, that man was picked up in Florida four days later with the gun still in the car, and I was the lead-off witness in his murder trial and conquered six months later, testifying about her and identifying her body and establishing motive. He's doing a life sentence in New Hampshire still. Oh, my God. What a story that is. It wasn't the first woman he had killed. He had killed another woman in Maine, some years earlier, his first wife.

And he copped a plea to manslaughter. At that time, domestic violence wasn't taken seriously. He copped to plead a manslaughter. I think he did eight years. Come on. And he came out of Amar and two boys from his first marriage of the wife he killed. And the money he put up to get out on bail was the Social Security money that his first wife left. for the boys after he killed her.

Oh, my God. This is grotesque. I told that story to the Judiciary Committee in the legislature a few times, and they said, well, it's just one story. I go, no, it's a lot of stories. Right. Please. And finally, I co-founded the main women's lobby partly because of these kinds of stories,

because people weren't being protected. Women weren't being believed. Women were not being believed. It didn't seem like a major crime back then. Right. And so we changed the law. We invented with a second state in the country to create a protection from abuse order procedure in court where women can, usually women, can go to court and get a protective order up front and, you know, temporary order at least. And now, of course, they can get an order that takes away the guns too.

That was weird. That was my first date with poor Stan. Oh, poor Stan. Why he ever asked me out again? I don't know. Yeah. But I mean, how are you able to, obviously you're dealing with life and death and violence and then you go to dinner with Stan? How does that, how does your brain work? Are you able to turn it off enough or was that date just kind of sucked that particular?

I'm sure I was in constant touch with the police to see if there were any sightings and stuff like that. But you have to compartmentalize. Yeah. What was it, Al Gore used to say, put it in a little box. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he did. And we use that for VEP for my character, Selena Meyer.

She took the putting things in a box idea and ran with it. Well, sometimes those box aren't big enough, but... Well, I guess you were able to do it because you clearly went out on a second date with him. And he knew you were... Yeah, you clearly did. And he certainly witnessed you being powerful and strong. Yeah, we were married for 29 years. Can I ask you about coming in and being the...

mom in that taking over the mom role. What did you, did you get help? Did you get therapy? I mean, you're dealing with girls who are grieving their mother. Was that not a thing? I, you know, I ask you this question too because my husband's mom married his dad and he was a widower. And he had two children. And within a year of their being married, she gave birth to twins. So she went from being single. to being the mother of four in a year. Oh, my God. But this was in the 50s for her. Yeah.

And it's a little later for you. But nobody was talking about parenting and how to deal with stepchildren and stuff like that. Were they for you? How did that work? Yeah, sure. I mean, you know, the teenage years always rough, tough. Yeah. They're challenging you.

And you can't pretend to be their mother. You can't really tell them what to do because you're not their mother. But you want to say, pick up the laundry. do the dishes, blah, blah, blah, because normal people would do that, but their teenage girls are not normal people. Right. But the little one, I was always close to the youngest one, and still am, but when she was like four or five years old, she would come to court with me.

She'd rather come to court and watch proceedings than go to daycare or kindergarten. So she would sit in the back of the court and she'd go, why didn't you ask him this? Why didn't you ask them that? And I go, really? There were rules of evidence, all right? not like on TV. But I said, when I got together with them, I thought, well, five girls, they must like Barbie dolls, right? Because I liked Barbie dolls growing up. So I built this Barbie doll condo in the hallway of the house. And she had a workout room. And the Barbie doll had a bigger wardrobe than

stepmom ever thought I had him. So I came home for the courthouse one night, and I'm getting ready to make supper. And the little ones in the hallway putting an Oscar de Laurenta dress on the Barbie doll, lovely gown. And I leaned up. over and I said, so, Lisa, where's Barbie going tonight? She's getting all dressed up. Without a hitch, the kid said, well, Barbie had grand jury today.

No. And tonight she's got a Democratic fundraiser to come to. What they hear, what they pick up in conversation. Yeah, that's so good. That's so touching. I love that. I love that story. I would take her grocery shopping and she'd be in the car and she'd go,

my mommy always bought us these, and there'd be like tutsi rolls or something. My mommy always bought us those. It'd be like bags of fritos and chips and the ugly stuff. And I got a car full of junk food. I get home, I stand and goes, what's all this? I said, Lisa said this is what your wife used to buy. She did not. She was a health food nut.

So they had you. They could lie. They had you pegged. Manipulated. I love that the little one came to court with you. That's mind-blowing. What is your relationship with these girls now? Oh, pretty good.

What's it all about? The oldest one died of advanced MS two years ago, sadly. Oh, I'm so sorry. And, of course, my husband died 12 years ago, and that was a learning experience, too, because, you know, I'm there to try to keep them all informed and fight for his health care, and it was really, really tough. He had a lot of medical issues, but he'd had a stroke. And, I mean, I was Attorney General, but every other week.

the rehab home would call and say, you have to take them home. I'd say, I can't. Well, the insurance company is refusing to pay anymore. And I said, well, give me the number, fax me his records. I'll try to figure out why they don't pay for it anymore. And seven times that happened and seven times I called the third party administrator and appealed. And the home said, no, nobody appeals. I said, oh, I'll appeal. They'd say, why are you appealing? I said, because he needs the help. He needs to have physical therapy. He needs to have this drug or that drug, whatever it was. He needs it. And, you know, you're at the worst time in your life. You're at the mercy of these companies that are just screwing you over. They're not in the business of providing care or compensation or compassion.

They're in the business of denying, denying, denying. Boy, did I learn that lesson for real. And I realized, wow, tens of thousands of other people in Maine are going through this like I am all the time. And tell me something, how do you take care of yourself at this? I mean, the stress, my God. What do you mean myself? I don't need help. What do you mean? What's stress? She says, vibrating out of her chair, about to fall over. No, but seriously, I mean, how did you, did you have a network of friends or? Yeah, that's important. It is important. Some of my friends that I go back 40 or, you know, 40, almost 50 years, some of us. So I know I can call. call them on the phone any time, and it's like we never stop talking. Yeah, that's nice when you can just pick up with them.

Because that's a lot, because you've got... I have a couple of male friends I hang out with, too. I don't have to go into that. We no longer call them boyfriends. We call them just male friends. Uh-huh, companions. People whose company I enjoy. All right, that's nice.

I like that. Persons of interest. More wisdom from Janet Mills after the... this quick break. You have a whole ritual right before bed, right? Fluff the pillow, light noise machine, no phone for 30 minutes before bed, maybe some magnesium, a little lavender essential oil, the weighted blanket, and the thermostat at exactly 68 degrees.

And after that whole production, you lie down, stare at the ceiling, and do the math. Maybe you can get five hours? The ritual was supposed to make sleep easier to find, but somehow it made the whole thing feel like a job. And the bad nights don't stay in the bedroom. They show up at the morning meeting, in the patience running thin by 4 p.m., in the feeling that everything is just a little harder than it needs to be. A sleep number mattress can actually change. Softer when you need to sink in, firmer when your back starts talking, cooler when the nights get long and warm. and Sleep Number has introduced new mattress collections designed for personal comfort.

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purchased in store and online. For J.D. Power 2025 award information, visit J.D.Power.com slash awards. Learn more at sleepnumber.com or visit a sleep number store near you. When you were young, you went through a terrible health crisis. You had scoliosis. Yeah, double scoliosis, yep. What does double mean? I don't know what that means. Oh, is it double two S curves, so two surgeries.

Oh, wow. And far away from home. And you were far away from home. Can you tell that story? because you had to advocate for yourself when you were 15 years old, and the recovery from this surgery was, sounds pretty brutal to me. Yeah. It's different today.

They don't treat it the same way, but at that time, you would go home in a casse and lie flat in bed for, I forget now, but it was a long time. It was a year out of your life anyway, a year out of your social life. But I tell you, I went to this hospital in Wilmington, Delaware that's for kids with bone issues. And let me tell you, one of my roommates had, was a thalidomide, victim who had no arms, just hands. Several kids had elephantitis and had many, many surgeries. And I'm like, I'm the lucky one. Wow. I learned that a lot of kids out there are worse off than me, for sure. And then when I got home and I could do nothing but study and be tutored through math

and science and stuff. And I watch Ed Sullivan and I would write jokes. I would write jokes. And I think I developed a sense of humor. Because what else could you do? Wow. What else could you do? Do you remember any of the jokes that you wrote? No, early predecessors of Alexander the Grape jokes or... Alexander the Grape? I don't even know that.

You don't remember that? No, tell me. Well, no, the elephant jokes. These are not child jokes. How do you tell when an elephant's been in the refrigerator? How? Footprints in the butter. Oh, these are stupid jokes.

Come on. That's a really bad joke. It is a bad joke. No, that's a bad joke. That's when you should drop from your act. For pre-teen, those are funny. Yeah, right. Do you have any advice for people who are trying to navigate the health care system now as somebody who obviously had to do it not only for yourself but for Stan?

Yeah, shop around and fight. Find an advocate. Find somebody who knows what they're doing. Shop around for the best health care and fight when you're denied care, when you're turned away. There's a lot of things we need in society, more primary care physicians and all those kinds of things, but fight to get what you need. And get a second opinion when you get a bad diagnosis, too, for goodness sakes, always get a second opinion. You have a right to that. I wrote a whole speech about strokes.

My husband's doctor called me up one night and I said, we'd like you to come speak to the stroke conference. So I said, wow, I don't know that much about strokes. Is it medical issues? He said, no, we want to hear about strokes from the family perspective. my husband was still alive. Oh, interesting. And I said, oh, I could do that. Oh, I could do that.

What is the family perspective? What was the emotional impact? Well, aphasia and all the forms of symptoms of stroke that you got to learn to recognize. And being an advocate, like even sitting at the supper table in a nursing home or something, making sure that he gets the right pills, this one gets the right pills. But one day I took my husband out for a ride, and we went up to the hill. We had coffee and muffins. We went and watched a football game with one of the girls.

Is this after the stroke? After? This is, yeah, during his rehab. Uh-huh. And then I brought him back to the facility, great rehabilitation facility, and they tucked them in, and the aide said,

Stan, you look like you had a good day today. Where did you go? He said, I think I went to see the Statue of Liberty. And my mouth dropped. I said, well, wait a minute. We just had this great. That's all you remember. I didn't say that to him.

But I spoke to the doctor, and I was just in tears. I said, I tried so hard. Just like bring him back and help him enjoy a day, and he doesn't even remember it. And that doctor said, it's all about how he feels in the moment. And you've made him feel good in the moment. And that's very meaningful. Oh, that is meaningful. And it's so touching that he said the Statue of Liberty.

Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't discount that metaphor because you're kind of like Lady Liberty probably to him. So I think that's very touching. Wow. Switching gears. In addition to being the first female governor, you were the first female DA, the first female AG. And I know the story that you tell about when you were appointed DA and the male colleague hollered down the hall. Well, I guess if I had a set of ovaries, I would have gotten the job, wouldn't.

But just a dushy thing to say. But that was 1980, right, when that happened? Yeah, that was a long time ago. Yeah. So has sexism in your experience, has that kind of sexism, I should say, has that been much more accepted or normalized in today's culture? Where do you think that kind of sexism is now? I'm curious.

I think there's now a power, still a power structure. Yeah. It divides men and women. Yes. And you see what's happening to some politicians in other states who have not been so nice to women. Yes. And it's intolerable in this day and age that they would think that they can just sort of have their way and exercise power over other people who happen to be women. For the most part, that's what it is.

But I mean, is there like a covert version of sexism that is with us that you could sort of identify? Yeah. Yeah, that's what I think. I think it's sort of, it's just in place. Yeah. It's like in the DNA of the workplace to a certain extent, I think. I don't know. I think you're right.

But also, I've always been very concerned. Look, we've got more women doctors, although fewer specialists, but more women lawyers, more women judges. I've got a lot of women judges in Maine and elsewhere. But in the trades and in construction, very, very few women. So I did an executive order two years ago, say, we want to train more apprentices and pre-apprentices who are women in the trades. And we trained up 400 people, 400 women. I think 300 of them are placed in jobs now.

But you don't want to be the first one. Nobody wants to be the first woman flagger on a construction scene or the first woman welder or the first woman car. You've got to have a group. It's too tough to be the first. It is tough to be the first. Too easy for people to make fun or be verbally abusive at the very least. Yeah, it can be very isolating.

I mean, in my career, I've seen just crews on set. You know, normally, when I first started out, they were all male, all of them, except in the hair and makeup department. And then, for real. But then as I've gotten older and been on more production. I would say, you know, there are more women actually in a crew being camera operators or DPs or, yeah, which is a good thing. That's a good thing. I know you've got to, I mean, this is such a hard time that our country is living through right now and you have to stand up to a lot of just maybe the worst I think our country's ever been through in a lot of ways. I agree.

I agree. Going back to the Civil War, I think it's the most urgent times we've seen. So how do you keep your spirits up? How do you stay? What do you do for yourself? How do you stay sane? I can't say that I have any hobbies that are worth noting, but I've written a lot of poems. Not a lot. I've written poems. I'll just let my mind go blank and fill in some words and write a poem. Or I'll go up to my camp. I'll go fishing. Oh. Yeah. You're a good Fisher person?

Not a good one, but I like it. I enjoy it. Who's your favorite poet? Do you have a favorite? Mary Oliver, Billy Collins. Billy Collins. Yeah, he's great. Oh, he's so great.

I got to meet him once. Really? What a charming guy. Yeah. You know, my mom is a poet. Really? Yeah. And when I told her that I was talking to you,

the first thing she said was, oh, she's a poet. Really? Yeah, she knew that about you. Oh, that's fun. That's really cool. Yeah, it is fun. Yeah. Yeah.

I can read you one, one, a short one I wrote. Please do. When my granddaughter was born. Yeah, pull it up. We've got time. Small print here, wait a minute. Do you need glasses? No.

Wow. Show off. No. For my granddaughter, spring, 2016. Men running for office bellow about the future, punch the air, wave their arms, yell on the TV. While in the delivery room, it is the fist you notice first. The quiet fingerlets that cling to one another

with invisible strength, clutching their own new skin, forming a circle only she understands. Then the face, wrinkly, the little body, a sturdy belly, knees and feet in miniature, eyes and ears ready to know everything that is new, everything that is, a brain ready to learn, a heart ready to love. That is your God warming your own heart. That is your God holding your hands so tight, never letting you go. Every government ought to have a department of the future, Kurt Vonnegut said. And here she is, clenching all our tomorrows. That's it.

Oh, that's so great. I love it. That's a beautiful poem. That's a beautiful poem. Oh, thank you for sharing that. Thank you for listening to it. Of course. That's beautiful. All right. A couple of quick fire questions. Is this something you go back and say yes to? I would say yes to more travel, yes to spending more time with my father. Is there something you wish you'd spent less time on? Well, work, you know. Always to say, always you to say.

Yeah, I wish I hadn't worked so hard. Oh, but we're all the beneficiaries of it, so I'm glad you did. What is it, Mary Oliver said? What is it you wish to do? What is what you want to do with this one wild and precious life of yours? Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to decide.

It's hard to know. She also said, I don't want to end up simply. having visited this world. I don't want to get stuff done. Well, you certainly have done that, haven't you? Tried. Yes. You tried and you've succeeded. What do you want people to know about aging? What should they know about aging? That it doesn't necessarily diminish your faculties. You shouldn't assume that a person who's older than you is less with it. They may be just as with it, if not with it in a different way. Last night, I was at a ceremony for a gentleman who's 94 years old.

There was another gentleman in the audience who had worked with him years ago who was 99 years old, and they were having the best repartee. I'm going, these guys are great, you know, now, 99 and 94. That's up there in age. Yeah, that is up there in age. I had a grandfather who lived to be 103. Wow. Yeah, yeah.

He was kind of mean, though. Good to be honest with you. Yeah. In his case, the mean kind of kept him going, I think. But anyway, and tell me, is there something you're looking forward to? Taking back the U.S. Senate. Oh, come on. Come on.

Let's go. Turning the House and Senate blew this year. Oh, God. Your words, God's ears. Oh, my God. We've got to. Got to. We've got to. We have no choice. We have to. As patriotic people, we have to do it. Thank you for making time.

Thank you for taking time. I'm just a huge admirer of yours. I really am. Thank you. Good to see you again. It's good to see you, too. It really is. Take care. Take care. Hi, Wives are the Me listeners. This is Julia. I'm just popping in with a quick update. We actually recorded this conversation with Governor Mills just a few days before she made the announcement. that she'd be stepping down from the senatorial race.

She cited insufficient funds and withdrew about five weeks before the main Democratic primary. So we asked her if she'd come and just talk to us very briefly about that decision, and she said yes. So here she is. I have to deeply thank you for coming back to speak with us, incredibly generous of you. I just really want to open by saying it takes guts to be the first female governor of Maine. And it takes guts to decide to run and fight to become a senator at the age of 78 and a quarter. And then it takes guts to decide you're going to pull out of the race. And frankly, it takes guts to come here today and talk to us about what it feels like.

So, you know, what does it feel like? I'm feeling a little bit liberated, honestly. I was, I mean, I was carrying the burden of two full-time jobs. And the legislature was in until a little over a week ago. And juggling the legislative, last-minute legislative agendas and the campaign demands of campaign trail, it was a lot. It was a lot. So, you know, but the main thing was we didn't have the financial resources to keep going. Yeah.

The money required for a federal campaign. I know. is humongous. Right. It is humongous. So there you go. Can we talk about making hard decisions and what your decision sort of matrix is like? What are your priorities when you're trying to make a big decision? And how do you know when you've come to it if you can parse that? Yeah. I mean, you do the decision tree in your head or on chalkboard or whatever. Here's the risk analysis. I mean, I did that with clients when we were talking about a settlement, settling a case of some sort, criminal or civil. What's the risk? This could happen, that could happen. If you go to trial,

this could happen, that could happen. If you go to another court, you know, that kind of risk analysis, decision tree is important personally and professionally. And who knows what's going to make you happier? You just don't know, because happiness is a fleeting thing. You know, it can come up in a heartbeat, it can leave in a heartbeat. It's not about being happy. It's about being fulfilled. It's about being, having a good life. And did you need to use the decision tree for this decision or did you not need the tree for this one? In my head, in my head, yeah. I mean, I'm a fighter. I don't ever want to give up. I don't like to give up it. And I realize I'm not really giving up. I'm fighting in a different way. Mohamed Ali said, when somebody asked him, what's your most important fight? He said,

my next one. My next one. Isn't that good? That's the way I feel too. What was your most important position. I don't know. What was your most important job? I don't know. My next fight's coming. Yeah. Your next decision. Your next fight. But I do want to get involved in groups and people and organizations that do want to save democracy. So that's one of my goals immediately. Nice. Get together with people, bipartisan, cross-partisan, as it were, people who want to do the same things I want to do by saving the three branches of government, saving the Constitution, and saving our democracy is such an important thing, and I'm not giving up on that.

Right. And last fall, when I finally decided to run for the U.S. Senate, after a lot of prodding, months of prodding, I thought, this isn't something I really need to do myself. I don't really care about being in Washington, but it's my country, too. And I really, I feel the need to change the Senate. I feel the need to stand up to Trump and his allies every day

as much as we can. And we're doing that on different levels. We'll be litigating and legislating and speaking up about what's going on in this country. I can't not do that. Can't not do that. So, well, I don't have the financial resources to carry on right now

in a very competitive U.S. Senate primary. I'm still going to be in the fight. And that's my decision. Yeah, I hear that. And so it sounds like the decision, I'm not going to say it was easy, but it was clear. Would you agree with that?

Yeah. After, at a certain point? Yeah. Did you, did you reach out to anybody for advice? Did you talk to any of your female governor friends? Yes. Whom were also fond of? Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Uh-huh. No, we communicate a fair amount. And I told them, you know, because they've been so supportive. I'm sure I spoke to most of them at one time or another saying, this is becoming too much. And I'm going to have to suspend active campaigning. And they go, oh. Oh, no, whatever we can do to help. That was their response unanimously.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So retirement is not the word we're going to use today, I said. We're not using retirement. That's a bad word. You, and hey, I'm still on the ballot. What the hell? I can vote for myself. Yeah. Yeah, I don't see, I don't see you as a sitting around type. I was going to ask if, yeah, right. No. Okay. I'll be giving some speeches. I'll be working on projects. And I opened my camp last weekend. I'll go fishing for a couple of days this week. Okay, nice. Now, I've got to show you something because we talked poetry before. Yeah, show me.

This is, I told you about Jamie Wise painting and how I've done some pairings. Yes. This is a pairing with his painting. It's probably two. Oh, no, I can see. Is that of a snowy owl? It's hard.

Yes, it is a snowy owl. Uh-huh. Signed by Jamie. Yes. Oh, my goodness. That's so beautiful. So it's a, on the left, is a beautiful watercolor that Jamie Wise.

Snowy owl. of a snowy owl. And then on the right is... The poem I wrote for the... And it was published in the Island Journal. It's about Miles Davis, really. It's about the snowy owl, but it's about Miles Davis. So what? You are Miles Davis disinterred.

A hamlet of hypothermia. Part Fabergerger cloud, one piece of sky. A little amputation of eagle hiding strong, wide wings. Wild offspring of Canada. Queen of camouflage perched like a coyote waiting for dark. cynical archangel, singing soundless hymns to an ancient heart, what memories, fears, loves, and retributions do you inspire? Something too long absent. Someone saying, I have always known you and know you still. Eyes promising never to leave you. Your talons clutch a branch that is my former

soul. I say, I'm kind of blue like that sea of yours. You smile as if you have just devout a crow somewhere in Labrador. So what? It was fun to do. Oh, it's beautiful. Oh, it's beautiful. We'll post that poem. That's beautiful. Wow. So what. I like that. So what, indeed. So I suspended my frigging active campaigning. So what. So what. So what. Yeah. Okay, great. Well, thank you for taking time today. And bravo, huge gratitude and huge admiration. Thank you. Flung your way.

Good to see you. Take care. Wow. Okay. That was such an inspiring conversation. Oh, that's just what I needed at this moment. Honestly, what a woman. I know my mom admires Janet Mills so much, so I really can't wait to tell her about this call.

Let's get her on Zoom right now. Hi, Mom. I love. How are you doing? Hi. I'm good. Mom. I just had such a beautiful.

beautiful conversation with Governor Janet Mills. Oh, I admire her so much. So do I. And I mean, I admired her before the conversation, but now what a genuine person she is. And what a force. She stands up to bullies and is a true advocate for her citizens, the people she represents. And I just love her to death. Here's something interesting.

Her whole family were Republicans. Oh. Yes. Mom, weren't your parents Republicans? Oh, yeah. Really? Really. Oh, yeah.

Ohio Taft Republicans. And she was talking about, she knew Senator Margaret Chase Smith. She was the first woman to serve both in the House and in the Senate. Right. And Senator Margaret Chase Smith was like a family friend as well. And she told the story, which I was unfamiliar with, which was that Senator Margaret Chase stood up to Joseph McCarthy four years before the demise of McCarthy and McCarthyism, four years before. And apparently she gave a very historical speech against what he was about and what he was doing. And I wanted to know some of your, what was your parents' stance during the McCarthy hearings?

Were they on board with this anti-communist fervor and hysteria? Well, I don't know about my mother. She never was very political and didn't talk too much. My father was very scared, but very scared. Well, scared of what, in other words, he was on the side of Joe McCarthy? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. And that was all part of my discovery.

every time that I was a Democrat because I went to Duke and I just admired Stevenson so much, Adelae Stevenson, and all of a sudden I thought, could I be a Democrat? I think I am, yeah. So it just kind of happened that all my choices were in that area. And I was just surprised at myself. And was that a problem for your parents? It would have been, I didn't tout it very much, but whenever I did, it was very, it was very incendiary, yeah. But I remember when Grandma Dedi was visiting and George Wallace, who was in the governor of.

And then. Yes. Was behaving so badly. And she made some very negative remark about him. So I don't know, you know, I mean. Her sympathies would have been. been much more along those lines, but she just didn't mess with politics. You know, she didn't make a point of it. I see. You know, I've heard that she loves poetry and that she does a lot with

poetry. Did she say anything about that? Oh, yeah. She loves poetry. She writes poetry. She very generously read one of her poems that she wrote when one of her granddaughters was born. And it's a gorgeous poem, gorgeous. I'm going to send it to you. because she said she'd send it to me. It's beautiful. She loves Mary Oliver, and she loves Billy Collins. Oh, great. Oh, great. Because, you know, I was thinking about them the other day at Strathmore here, which is a huge concert hall. I one time went to hear that both of them spoke together. And it was no kidding. Standing room only. And you can imagine Billy Collins. And you wouldn't think they were perfect together. They were just absolutely wonderful. And it was just, jeezing. with people. It looked like a rock concert. Yeah. It was beautiful. Yeah. And what do you think it is about Mary Oliver? You know, a lot of the guests on this podcast have spoken about Mary Oliver. What is it

about Mary Oliver, if you were to say, that has such resonance for so many people? So many people and so many poets are so touched by it. And, well, I heard a comment about it today. And somebody said that she seemed to be the poet of the dawn, in other words, the opening of things, but that she carried very much darkness, the darkness and the dawn. She carries both very successfully in her poetry. You know, the dark shadow and so forth and the sort of death shadow and the life force. She could put them together. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I mean, every poem of her is like a walk in the woods.

Yeah, but it is a lot of the natural world. I mean, she goes there for all of her imagery. Exactly, exactly. And the natural world saved her because she came from a very traumatic background. And she found her safety when she was a child, was going into the woods. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, that continued for all of her life. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Okay, Mommy, I am so happy to see you, and I will talk to you later. Okay, good, good. Okay. So call me, I'm here. Okay, love you. Bye. Love you. Bye.

There's more wiser than me with Lemonada Premium. You can now listen to every episode, ad-free, plus subscribers also get access to exclusive bonus interview excerpts from each guest. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts. Head to Lemonada Premium.com to subscribe on any other app or listen, add-free, on Amazon music with your prime membership. That's Lemonada Premium. com. Make sure you're following Wiser Than Me on social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok

at Wiser Than Me podcast. And we're on Facebook at Wiser than Me podcast. We're also on Substack at Wiser Than Me.com. Wiser than me is a production of Lemonada Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louis-Dreyfus. The show is produced by Chrissy Pease and Oha Lopez. Brad Hall is a consulting producer. Rachel Neal is consulting senior editor and our SVP of weekly content. and production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles Wax, Jessica, Cordova Kramer, and me. The show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with engineering help from James Barber, and our music was written by Henry Hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music.

Special thanks to Will Schlegel and, of course, my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser Than Me wherever you get your podcasts. And if there's an old lady in your life, listen up. Woo!