Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus - Julia Gets Wise with Isabel Allende

Episode Date: April 11, 2023

Today on Wiser Than Me, Julia gets schooled by 80-year-old award-winning author Isabel Allende (The House of the Spirits). Isabel teaches Julia about organic justice, letter writing, and blueberry weed edibles. The two compare notes on everything from postpartum experiences to otherworldly visits from the other side.    Follow Julia on Instagram and Twitter @officialjld. Keep up with Isabel Allende on Instagram @allendeisabel. You can find out more about our show @lemonadamedia on all social platforms.   Joining Lemonada Premium is a great way to support our show and get bonus content. Subscribe today at bit.ly/lemonadapremium.    Wiser Than Me is brought to you by Hairstory.  Use code WISER at checkout for 20% off your purchase, and Hairstory will donate 10% of proceeds from this code to water preservation efforts.    Wiser Than Me is brought to you by EverEve. Check out EverEve’s latest curated styles and get 20% off your first online order when you use code WISER.   Sleep better at night with Boll and Branch sheets. Get 15% off your first order when you use promo code WISER at bollandbranch.com   Click this link for a list of all Wiser Than Me sponsors and discount codes: https://lemonadamedia.com/sponsors/.    For additional resources, information, and a transcript of the episode, visit lemonadamedia.com.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonada. From 1982 to 1985, I had the privilege of being on Saturday Night Live. And there was one sketch that I did in which I played Christina Delorean, the wife of John Delorean, who I guess he invented the Delorean car, and he had some big cocaine scandal at the time. I mean, could there be anything more 80s than that? Anyway, for the scene, the hair and makeup people gave me a blowout, you know, they straightened my hair because Christina DeLorean had straight hair,

and I had really, really curly hair. And the scene was, you know, funny or whatever, probably not, I think my husband Brad might have played John DeLorean, but it doesn't matter. This is not what I'm talking about. What matters here is that it was the first time I had ever had straight hair in a sketch. Usually it was just my own curly hair or wig, right? So, the Monday after the show aired when we came back to work at 30 Rock, one of the very big bosses called me into his office and he sat me down specifically to tell me that he

really liked how I had done my hair in the John DeLorean sketch. And then he tells me that he had gotten a call from somebody at NBC saying that at least five NBC executives wanted to, and I quote, fuck me because they thought my hair looks so good. Oh, lucky me. He actually prefaced the whole thing by saying, I've got good news. Yeah, he did. Even now as I'm telling you this, I'm speechless. I didn't know what to do.

I started laughing, in fact, and that's really all I remember. But it stayed with me. And I didn't change my hair, but for the rest of my entire three-year run there, they kept trying to get me to. A couple of years later, I'd already been on Seinfeld for a while, and this same producer came up to me at some NBC event. I hadn't seen him in like ages, and he goes, hey, Holes, because that's what he called me. He goes, Holes, I see there letting you do your hair the way you want. And I'm thinking to myself, and I see you're still clueless.

myself and I see you're still clueless. Now I cannot in good conscience. Honestly, I cannot stand by my big wall of hair that kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger on Seinfeld. That truly does not stand the test of time and I want to apologize to all watchers of that show for that look. But I can and do stand by doing whatever the fuck I want to do with my hair and my body and my brain no matter what the men in the room have to say about it, which should be by the way nothing. Back then the implied powerlessness of women in the workplace was just the expected norm. Early in my career, getting producer credit when I was, in fact, producing a show was like squeezing water from a stone.

And look, I know I am lucky. But even for me, in my oh-so-privileged show business sphere, that imbalance has been in place in various forms for my entire career. So many years later when I first heard about the show VEEP, a series about a female vice president who was unhappy, a bitter angry, thwarted female politician, this rang so true to me. And even though Selena Meyer was out of her pee, pick in mind, because, you know, let's face it, she's really a villain, her struggle I identified with, and her self-hatred, I identified with, her hatred of other women and of her own femininity made a lot of sense to me because it's real and it comes from somewhere that feels so familiar.

I really truly love leaning into that part of Selena. I love being a woman and I totally understand how being a woman can keep you from your goal and keep your ambitions restrained. I understand why being a woman for Selena was so hard and so God damn funny. Selena even says at one point she said, I can't identify myself as a woman. People can't know that. Men hate that. And women who hate women hate that, which I believe is most women, by the way. There's a little Selina Meyer performance for you.

The power of women and the powerlessness of women and how we hold those two things together at the same time is very interesting to me. And today, I'm talking to a woman who's writing so thoughtfully examines these themes of womanhood. Isabel Iende. Hi, I'm Julia Louis-Dreyfus, and this is Wiser than me.

A show where each week I get schooled by women who are Wiser than me. So you're a six year old little girl in Santiago, Chile right after World War Two, and you're going to a little conference school with nuns and everything. And for some reason, they kick you out. So here you are, just six years old, and you wonder maybe even through tears, what the heck is going to become of me? Do you think if you're a kid in that situation, even a kid with an absolutely wild imagination? Do you think you'd imagine that you'd grow up to sell 77 million books,

be translated into eight zillion languages, and be the first internationally successful female South American writer? You would, if you were Isabella Yende. If I had to say only a few words to describe Isabella Yende's writing, they would probably be, oh my god! She writes these sweeping, multi-generational stories about grief, and sorrow, rage, and displacement, power, and sex, and ghosts, and much of it is inspired by episodes from history or from her own, absolutely fascinating life. And she

doesn't stop with just the writing. She was a feminist long before the term was invented. In fact, she says she knew she was a feminist before she could even utter a word. She's the founder of the Isabelayende Foundation and recipient of a presidential medal of freedom. Not bad for a little girl who got kicked out of a convent. So if you're ready for some serious inspiration, maybe some killer writing tips. Did I mention she's also a renowned teacher? And maybe a little magic in your realism, then you're in the right place. Please welcome a woman who is way wiser than me, Isabelle, I end day. Julia, i'm not wiser than you by you know stretch of the imagination i guarantee that you are i pretend a lot i lie a lot so that you get

the wrong impression so you're a faker yeah of course well i guess to a certain extent were all fakers right i mean we have to sort of fake our way through certain situations. By the way, are you comfortable if we say you're real age? Of course I'm 80. I'm so proud of being 80 Julia. I should be.

I'm so proud. You should be proud. It's so gorgeous. You are so gorgeous. Oh, thank you. How old do you feel? Do you feel 80? Look, when I compare myself to my husband,

who is six months younger than me, so let's say that he's 80, I feel that he's 80 and I'm not. Because I can still run up the stairs and I can touch my toes and I jump out of bed and I work 18 hours a day and I'm fine. So probably because I'm healthy but also because I have a purpose and I have a very good life. I'm fine. So probably because I'm healthy, but also because I have a purpose. And I have a very good life. I'm very happy. Oh, God, that's so happy, Julia, really. I'm happy to be alive.

I'm happy to be here. I'm happy to be looking through my window right now. I live very close to Elagon, and I see the ducks and the geese. And it's fantastic. What do you think the best part about being your ages? That you don't have to please anybody. Oh yeah. Only the people you love and the people you care for, but not the world, not everybody else, you don't have to follow anybody's lead, you don't have to follow fashion or nothing. If I try to look good, it's because it pleases me, not because I'm trying to please anybody

else. I don't care, really. Did you arrive at this place that you're describing later in your life? Because I get the sense this is a little bit who you are. No, I think that it has taken me years to get to this freedom, this absolute freedom that I feel now. But because during my youth and my my mature years, I was trying to prove something. I was trying to do something to become someone. You know, everything, raising kids, having a marriage or a divorce or exile, all the things

that I have gone through, were like tests that I had to go through. And now I feel that I don't have to. I know that the final test will be real old age being ancient when you are dependent and then death. That's going to be the final test. But right now, I mean, this wonderful period in which I don't feel tested. God, I cannot wait to be any time that right now. You guys start right now. I can't. You're really, really selling it well for real. Can we talk about feminism because first and foremost, I have to say, and you're writing, I was saying this earlier before we have this conversation, I was talking to my producers and I was saying, what's so

extraordinary to me about your writing is that your feminism is baked into the writing. It's in the fabric of the writing. When you're not talking about it, it's there. And I love that. What was the moment you realized you weren't treated the same as men? Was there a moment? Because you said you were a feminist when you were a little girl. What was that? I think I realized very early on that my mother wasn't treated like the men in the family. It wasn't so much about me because I was a child, but very early on I saw my mother. I wouldn't say as a victim because a victim is someone who can't get away from a situation. And maybe she could have been able to get away.

Yeah, but my mother didn't have any money, any power of decision of any kind, any freedom. My father had a man on her with three kids. So she annulled the marriage, and she became a single mother with three kids in a country with no divorce. So she went to live with my grandfather and she was totally dependent. She couldn't make a living. She had to depend on other people to support

the kids. She had a roof over her head, schooling for the kids, everything that was the basic was there. But nothing else because in in a way, society, I'm probably the family, punished her for divorcing, for making the wrong decision, for marrying against her parents' will. For all the mistakes that she could have made, and she was so young, so young, my mom was My mom was 20 when she married, 24 when she was alone with Ricketts. One of them newly born, my father never met that kid, my youngest brother. And did you feel that your mom recognized the sort of injustice in the culture? Were you aware of it or you just witnessed it? I witnessed it and I don't think she recognized the injustice, but she recognized her dependency and her poverty of resources.

She had to ask for everything. You know, recently I published a book called Violeta, and that was after my mother died, because many people said that I had such a fantastic, unique relationship with my mom that I could write about her and she was also a fascinating character. But I couldn't, I couldn't write exactly about her, but I created a character that would be like my mother, even physically like my mother, but with one difference, my character can support herself. And therefore, she has a life that my mother didn't have because she depended first of the father, then the husband, then the second husband, then me, etc. She could never be herself, fully. Was this something you were able to talk about with her? Later in life. Yes, my mom was scared of feminism, my feminism, because she thought that I would get a lot of aggression.

And at the time when I was preaching against the patriarchy, I was 14, 15 years old. No one was talking like that. I mean, I was a lunatic. And my mother was scared. She thought that there was something wrong with me that I would never be able to grab a husband or have a life because who would want me, you know? At last, she thought that I would get, and I have gotten a lot of aggression for that.

Yes. Because I belong to the transition generation that that we were the bridge between my mother's values and the way she was brought up and the new wave of young feminists that were changing the world. But we were in between. Because we were raised like our mothers and we had to act like our daughters. But you know, it's funny because I think even even today, you know, to say that my experience is when I say, yes, I'm a feminist, I don't really say that very much. I behave like it. I live my life like it, but I shy away from the word, which is something I guess should be explored. I don't really know why that is because you don't need it. You don't need it Julia, because

you belong to a generation in a country where you don't need to say it. It's just there. But imagine my life 60 years ago in Chile, that's right. You have to say it, my mother would say, yes, yes, I understand, you can do everything, but do it quietly, no need to make a fuss. And I would say, mother, how can you have a revolution without a fuss, without making noise? Right. It's impossible. You have to really articulate, say things so that

people will acknowledge that that's a problem. That's right. So speaking of motherhood, well first of all, you said, I don't know if you wrote it, you said it in an interview, you said, your mother, who has since passed, but your mother was ahead of you, 20 years ahead of you, and she was showing you the way, which really struck me because first of all, it's very much sort of the notion of what this podcast is about. Show us the way. Can you talk about that a little bit about your relationship with your mother? My mom and I lived separated most of our lives. She was married to a diplomat, so when I was 15, I was living with my grandfather in Chile. My mother was in Turkey. And we started writing letters to each other every day.

Of course, the mail would take a month or two sometimes. So it was not a dialogue. It was just an ongoing, keeping a diary thing, a monologue. And we kept that habit of writing to each other every day all our lives. In the garage of my office, I have 24,000 letters. And that's it. I'm not kidding, Julia. It's my letters and my mother's letters that I have collected only in the since 1987, because I don't have the other letters. I know everything about my mother. We shared our lives. She knew less about me than I knew about her, because she was much more open than I was, partly because I didn't want to hurt her many times. She had no modesty with me in any sense. She could talk about money, about sex,

about relationships, about her ailments, about everything. She would say, my miseries. Was any of that inappropriate or was it all appropriate? In a appropriate most of it that's why I can never share those letters. Oh I see. A lot of it you could not share with anybody. Wow. And that the confidentiality of it made it so extraordinary. And of course there was a lot of domestic stuff and little stuff, but also the big issues were there. So I knew my mother so, so well. And when I say she was showing me the way, many times the showing of the way was what I would not do because she had done. Yes. And would she say as much, don't do this or you would come to that conclusion.

No, my mother would say do it because my mother was a lady and she wanted, she wanted me to be a bit like her. Well, there was a point when I had success with my books and I got some recognition that my mother sort of started seeing me under a different light. And then she acknowledged that what I had done was valuable, and it was a better life than hers. So at the end of her life in the last 10, 15 years, we could talk about that. And she, she often said that she wasted so much time, that she was so scared. She regretted that she could not explore fully her talent for painting, for example.

She was always copying instead of trying to express herself. I think that she got fed up with the idea of being the perfect housewife and spouse and the wife of a diplomat. Yeah, it didn't pay off, you know? And she thought that my life was so much better, in spite of the losses and the risks.

Was she a good writer? Yes, excellent writer. And she would be my editor at the beginning when I didn't have anybody else. She would read my books. And often she couldn't edit in the way a good editor does, but she could say, she could make it look more beautiful, read more beautifully by choosing another adjective and an unusual noun.

But also sometimes she would say, you know what? I don't like the ending. And she couldn't say why. But if she didn't like it, I knew there was something wrong with it. Oh, wow. Amazing. You've learned a lot about writing from her. Yeah. From everything about her, I would think. I mean, it was the first real critical relationship in your life, right?

With your mom. And very critical because she didn't like any of my writing until she read the reviews. Oh, that's a shame. I don't like anything. My father was very critical of what I did as well. Yeah, he was, and it was kind of gutting because I revered him so tremendously and he was incredibly opinionated and very often, right, what did he do, your father? Oh, well, my father had an interesting life because he was a businessman.

He was in the commodities business. But in fact, he was a poet. He was ahead of the poetry society of the East and was published, but he was incredibly intelligent and he had a law degree and he was charismatic. I don't know. He was somebody whose opinion I valued and when we butted heads, it was pretty brutal. But it seems like people like that in your life, you, I think to a certain extent, you need them. And then you also have to figure out a way not to need them, or to need them the way that works for you best, right? Which is what it sounds like it was with your mom.

Yes. Do you go back and read them or you let them be? No, I've never read them. I have only read some of the letters when I have written a memoir because every single day of my life is in those letters. So if you ask me what happened July 7, 1996, I can go to the garage, take 1996 box out and find the day. And I can tell you what happened that day. So for a memoir, it's very useful. But I don't read them.

It makes me sort of sad to know that it's there and I will never receive another letter. When she died, I kept on writing to her for a couple of months every day. And then it became something very artificial. I couldn't do it anymore. But you have talked about how you in the morning, you have your time, you wake up early, I don't know if this is still the case, you wake up early and you have your time with your mom and your daughter, Paula, who's passed and you have time with them. Is that in your head,

do you talk, if you don't mind, talking about that? Well, I don't see ghosts and I don't talk aloud. I'm not completely crazy. But we have a king size bed and two dogs. In the morning I wake up around half past four, sometimes five o'clock. And I have an hour at least, if not an hour, to sit in my bed in the darkness, accompanied by these creatures I love, my husband and the two dogs.

And be grateful. Remember, think of who I am, where I am, what am I doing. And when I say I talk to my mother because often I have questions. And some of the questions are for my mother, some of the questions are for Paula, some are for my grandfather, some are for my stepfather, because I know what they would answer. I know, for example, I know that if I have some issue with one of my grandchildren and I'm unhappy about something, I would call Paula. And Paula would say, Mom, what is the most generous thing to do in this case? I know the answer. And if I call my mother, I know what she would say or my stepfather. So that's when I say that I talk to them, that's what I mean. And I remember them. I'm surrounded by their photographs.

And what what was like a question that you asked today, for example, or yesterday? Does anything come to mind? Today, I read an article in The New Yorker about marriage. And it's about a philosopher, a woman, a philosopher who is happily married with two children and she falls in love with a student and decides that she analyzes this from a philosophical point of view and decides that she has to follow her her heart. So she ends her marriage with another philosopher and gets together with this younger man. And so there's a long, long piece about what relationships are all about. And this morning I was thinking about my mother's marriage and about how unhappy it was. My mother was married for 65 years with my stepfather and it began like an incredible passion but they had very little

income on really and at the end of their lives I think they were disgusted with each other really really yeah so I was thinking of me at 80 with my husband at 80 and this new relationship because we have been married for a very short time. And thinking, how do I tackle this? And at my age, it's more about patients, tolerance, understanding, good humor, good manners are very important, respecting each other's space. But what was the question then? What was the question that you, my question this morning was,

is my marriage working? Could it be better? How are we doing? So trying to think about it without analyzing it too much from an intellectual point of view, trying to feel it from the heart more. And it's heart, Julia, because life gets in the way, you know? Yeah, totally. Yeah.

And at our age, there, for example, Roger has been sick. He had surgery. He took him a long time to recover. So for a while, I felt trapped, taking care of someone. I'm not good at it. And then thank God he's now much better. He's going to university. He's studying.

He's doing stuff. And so I seem coming back to life. And I'm so pleased that that's the case because how long would I have loved him really if he was not the person I married. Right. I married him three years ago and everything changed very very soon. First of all, the pandemic hit. And we were locked in a small house with two dogs. And we couldn't go anywhere. Oh my God.

Working on Zoom. Well, it's really a blessing. You still like him. I love him. I really, I really love him. I asked myself today, why do I love him? Who attracted me of him when I met him? Kindness.

Kindness, and a person who is completely transparent, you don't have to guess anything. He's totally the person you see, that's what you will get. How did you meet him? He heard me on the radio, and then he wrote to my foundation, and I answered every first message of a reader. So I answered, as I always do, and then he wrote again, and he started writing to me every morning and every evening for five months.

And I wrote back sometimes, and then eventually I had to go to a plant-parenthood thing in New York. He worked in Manhattan, so we met, and he invited me out for lunch. And I said, look, what are your intentions? Because I'm 74 years old and I don't have any time to waste. Therefore, well, he choked on the ravioli, but he didn't panic. And two days later, he proposed, he said, let's get married. I said, you kidding, we can be lovers, but I'm not going to get married. But he lived in New York and I live in California.

So he had to take a plane and come to visit for a weekend. It was not comfortable. And after a year or so, he moved to California. He sold his house. He was away. He gave away everything he owned and moved to my house with two bikes, a few clothes, and for some reason, some crystal glasses. Go figure why the glasses.

I still have them. Just ask him why. I don't know. He just brought the glasses. So we started living in this small house for a while, and he always brought up the idea of marriage. And I always said, it's not necessary. We're not going to have kids.

Why are we going to get married? Right. I agree with you about that. So I'm curious to get with his argument. Why? But what's his argument? For him, it was important because he had been married in a wonderful marriage for 48 years with a fantastic human being, his wife, Grace. And I think that for him, the idea of marriage

was full commitment. And I don't give the impression that I will commit to anything except my writing. Because I am always like temporary here or temporary there. And he felt maybe insecure, I don't know. But what really tipped the balance was that once his granddaughter Anna, who was seven at the time,

went to the librarian in her school and said, miss, have you heard of his Ave la Yende? And the librarian said, yeah, yeah, I think I've read a couple of her books. And then there was this pause. And the child said, she's sleeping with my grandfather. Really? Really? And that was it. You walked down the aisle at that point.

Yeah, at that point we said, OK, let's get married. This is about example for the kids. That is hilarious. God, that makes me laugh. My conversation with Isabelle IN Day continues in just a moment. And believe me, you won't want to miss a single word of what she has to say.

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New members only, not available in remote locations. See additional terms at 1peloton.com-home-trial. Let's talk about motherhood and what they don't tell us about motherhood. Because you've talked about how it can be very boring, but also very thrilling. I'm curious about that, and I want to share my experience too. I have two sons at age 30 and 25. And motherhood has absolutely not been in so many ways what I thought it would be. And I mean that positively, but in the beginning, I found it very shocking. And I definitely was completely whacked by postpartum, particularly with my first son.

And I remember thinking when he was born, it was like you didn't realize what motherhood was until you had a child. And it was like all of a sudden, there's was until you had a child and it was like all the sudden There's this whole other part of life and the world that you didn't know existed that was ongoing that you had no idea about like there was a huge wall and you didn't even know the wall was there and on the other side of the wall is this whole new way to and on the other side of the wall is this whole new way to live your life, which on the one hand is very exciting, on the other hand positively terrifying. And I remember my father-in-law was at the house and our son Henry had just been born

and he was talking going on and on about, I don't know what, just some things a little bit mundane, maybe telling stories about his life. And as he's talking, in my mind, I'm thinking, how can you all be talking like this, as if my life hasn't been just completely upended? And I burst into tears because in the middle of him talking about some college stories, so you can imagine they thought I'd gone

completely out of my mind. But there was this feeling of great shame about that too. And that's, I guess, really what I wouldn't talk about is the feeling there's a sense that you're not allowed to feel that way. Can you talk about that in your experience? Well, I wasn't terrified of the idea of being a mother, But something happened that is hard to explain. All my life before I became a mother, I was lonely. I was profoundly lonely. I was a child that was, I think I was a smart kid. Yeah. The only girl among boys and uncles and grandfather all male, always feeling unseen,

always having the feeling that if my mother something happened to my mother and my mother was sick all the time, I would end up in an orphanage. So that I didn't have anybody. And the message I got from my grandfather's mostly, who was a great person, but this was my family, was don't ask for anything because you won't get it. Fend for yourself. Don't whine, don't cry, be strong, perform. That was the constant message and great loneliness. And then I fell in love, but I never, now that I look back, I fell in love with

the idea of getting married and having kids and the idea of love. But I don't think I admired or respected much that man, who was a very good person by the way. But I knew that I was smarter, that I was more capable, more hard working, that I was more organized, that I could do much more than he could, that he was like a child that I had to bring along. And then, Paula was born. And for the first time in my life, I felt that I was never going to be alone again, that I was, I had this person in my life that I would take care of for the rest of my life. Yes. And it was thrilling.

It was something extraordinary. And then when my son was born, I felt that the three of us were a unity, like a table with three legs. Yeah, we were talking a table with three legs in house of the spirits, by the way. A table with three legs and husbands could come and go, exile could happen, whatever, but we were together. And amazingly, you just saw my son. My son is 50 something, 53, 56, I don't even remember. He's with me all the time. We work together, we live to not we don't live together, but very close 12 minutes away. As I did with Paola, so, the table with the three legs stands. Stance, it's incredible. By the way, just to clarify, because if my boys are listening to this podcast, I don't want them to think that I was hysterically unhappy when either

of them were more stressed out. I mean, It is a terribly stressful situation. Right. Nobody tells you about it. Nobody talks about it. And now we live in a country where you're supposed to have many children, even if you don't want them. Yeah, I know. Tell them, oh my God, don't get me going there. Yeah. But you did, you talked about two at a time in your life as a mom where you, you did take off for a period of time. Yeah, I abandoned my children, abandoned them. I abandoned them. And if you ask me what is the thing I regret the most in my life, that's it. I fell in love.

I was, we were living in Venezuela after the military coup in Chile, we had to leave. And we were living in Venezuela. My husband found a job in the other end of the country in another province and I was alone in Caracas with the kids and I fell in love with an Argentinian musician. He moved to Spain and I followed him and I left my well my parents were living in the same building, but I left my kids. And I went to Spain with this man. And a month later, when I realized I could never get my kids back, my husband was never going to allow it.

I returned. My husband picked me up at the airport. I came in a very early flight in the morning back from Spain. And he picked me up at the airport. I came in a very early flight in the morning back from Spain and he picked me up at the airport and he said, everything that happened was my fault because I neglected you, I wasn't paying attention. You told me and I didn't believe it. So all is my fault we were never going to talk about this again. By the way, was that true? Yes. Okay. In a way, but I cannot blame him. He was not to blame. It was me. My, my, I was impatient. I was alone. I was terribly frustrated. I couldn't find a job. Everything that I had done in Chile was meaningless in Venezuela.

Oh, God. And we didn't have any money. I didn't know anybody. So the situation was dire in many ways. Yes. But I cannot blame him because he was working. He was doing what he was supposed to be doing. And I was supposed to be taking care of the family. And instead I fell in love with somebody else.

So when I returned, my husband went back to his work and I tried to make up with my children who had felt abandoned, especially Paula, who was 15 years old, and she was furious, absolutely furious. And my son, Nico, was depressed. When I left, he had an accident, broken arm, and then he didn't want to eat. So I came back to a very bad situation. And it took years for the kids to want or accept to talk about it, because they never wanted to talk about what had happened. Although I tried to bring it up, because I think that there are certain things that you

better talk about, you cannot just leave them there in the darkness, festering. No. And so eventually I think they forgave me, but I heard them badly. And have you forgiven yourself? No. Really? No, because I understand that I was another person then. We change a lot, Julia, in our lives.

Life shapes us. Totally. The person I was at 35 is not the same that was holding my daughter when she was dying and I was 50 or the person I am today at 80. It's like, it's like, rain carnations. And I try to be gentle to the person I was then and understand. But the idea that I heard my kids is very hard to live with that. Yeah.

Yeah. Did you go to therapy with your kids? No. I went to therapy with my husband and alone many times. That first husband, you mean? Yeah. And I lived with him nine more years trying to fix the marriage. And it was broken.

It was broken. And after all those years, we were together for 29 years. And the last nine years was a huge effort, I think, on his part as well, to be again a couple. But we had, I think we had never been a good couple before. We just had been together, sustained, supported by the crutches of society and when we left all those crutches behind, when we went into exile, everything fell apart. And your son, Nico, is he married? He's married and he's very happily married and my daughter-in-law runs my foundation and she's my best friend and we work all together. Oh my God, what a fabulous thing to hear.

And you have grandchildren? I have three grandchildren who are now adults. What? Of course, one is 32, the other one is 30, the other one is 29, I think. Yeah, I guess that makes sense. Yeah, and they have their lives and they communicate with me, one of them more than the other two, but I don't miss them. You know, one thing that happens, no, one thing that, I'm sorry to say that, this I love it. No, I love, I love love them. But I don't miss them because when you reach this time in life, you let go of a lot of things. So that is the great freedom to let go. First of all, of all, of all the material stuff. If my house burns to ashes tomorrow, as long as I can get the dogs out,

I don't care. Okay, look, I need you to come to my house and clean it out. Cleaning that, well, my house was very little in it. And whatever you see here. Do you want some of my shit, cause I got. I mean, if my house burns down, I'm gonna cry and cry and cry. Why, why Julia?

You're going to die and you're not going to take anything with you. So who cares? Yeah, you're right. You're right. No, I hear anything with you. So who cares? Yeah, you're right. You're right. No, I hear you. I hear you. Yeah, I think you're right.

And then to get rid of all the relationships that are not worth keeping, that some of them are really toxic, but others are just boring. Right. To let go of ambition, of greed, of trying to do or be someone, you let go of everything and then eventually you let go of your grandchildren, not because you are going to abandon them, but because it doesn't hurt you if they don't call you for your 80th birthday, doesn't matter. When is your birthday? August 2nd. Okay. I'm Elio. What are you? Capricorn. I'm January 13th. Yeah. That makes sense. I don't know anything about those children.

Oh, you said, but you went, yeah, yeah, like you knew what I was talking about. I used to do horoscopes at a certain time in my life, but it was just faking the whole thing. certain time in my life, but it was just faking the whole thing. I worked in a magazine in this women's magazine, and we had a horoscope, every magazine had a horoscope then. I think still, and the astrologer lived in Peru, and this magazine was published in Chile. So one day I went to the director of the magazine, I said, look, I have the February horoscope, but I don't have the January. And she said, oh, it doesn't matter.

Just put the February in January. So I said, look, if that's how this works, I can do it. Why do? So that's fun. So you got to sort of be flexible and start, yeah, exactly. So I found out what signs my friends wear and I would write the horoscopes for them. But you are a very spiritual person.

Are you a religious person or are you a spiritual? No, no. I'm not religious at all. And I am very skeptical of the word spiritual because in the name of being spiritual, people are really abusive sometimes. But explain how you identify with, I don't know, what do you wanna call it then,

if we don't use the word spiritual? I think that I'm aware that the world is a very mysterious place, and that many things, there's a lot of most stuff, we can't explain, and most stuff we can't control. And we are just part of a chain, part of nature, part of everything that is alive. And when I die, I will go back to some other form, like I don't know, fertiliser for the ground or something. I don't believe in heaven. I don't believe that there is a God watching what I do.

That is going to punish me. But I do believe that there is organic justice. And whatever I do, I will have to pay for. The good and the bad. So I'm very careful. I step carefully. I don't want to hurt anybody. Do you have a death sort of plan?

Have you thought that through? No, I haven't thought much about it, but I've talked with my son about it. I don't want to be kept alive, beyond the natural time. No artificial life. If possible, I don't want to die in pain. I want to die knowing that I'm dying conscious and living my death to the very end, because I think it's an extraordinary experience. I know. I held in my arms my daughter when she died. She was in a coma, so she was not aware. But then I held my mother when she died and she was totally aware. At one point she asked me, am I dying?

And I said, yes, Mama, are you afraid? And she said, no, I am curious and I am content. Oh my God, what a blessing. What a blessing. And she died in my arms. And then three months later, my stepfather died in my arms. And we were best friends, he and I. And he was terrified of death, absolutely terrified, screaming in terror. So, when I compare those experiences, I see that my mother was prepared. She prepared herself for that point. My mother

was religious in the sense that she had been brought up Catholic and she would listen to the Mass on TV on Sundays, but she was not fanatic at all. But somehow she had an idea of the soul, she prepared herself. My stepfather was a social being, a diplomat, a civil servant, someone who lived a very gregarious person. And in the last years of his life, when all his friends had died, even his children had died, he was alone and he was scared of everything. And the purpose of his life, which was this gregarious life, ended. And the last years were very sad. I had the experience of being with my father when he passed away. And he died at home. First of all, it's a complete gift to be with a loved one when they pass.

Absolutely. And in a weird way, this might sound strange, but in a weird way, it reminded me of waiting for somebody to give birth. Exactly. And we were there just all, like, frankly, in the bed lying next to him. And when it came time to go, he was ready to go, which I was surprised by actually, because he was a fighter.

And he kept saying, let's get this show on the road, you know. But he has been, certainly, he died, I don't know how many years ago, it's been now 2006, so five, eight years ago now. But he's with me all the time. And are you clairvoyant? Do you have any sort of, are you, do you get signs or things like that? Very few. I do, but few.

Not like my grandmother, who was totally magical. She was for real? Yeah. grandmother who was totally magical. She was for real? Yeah, but what you are saying, Julia, reminded me that when that my daughter died at home also, Paola, and she died in a large family room that we sort of created a sort of hospital there for her. And it was a very long night. sort of hospital there for her. And it was a very long night. She died finally around three o'clock in the morning. And we were all there with her. And there was this sense that something mysterious and sacred was happening. And it was like a stillness in the air. Stillness is the only way that I can describe it. Right.

Like waiting and not waiting, like just everything was like a photograph, not moving. And then a few months later, my granddaughter Nicole was born. And I was there with her when she was born. I took her out of her mother and cut the umbilical cord. And when the process of the mother walking the corridor and then the effort of giving birth and the long time and then the coming and the stillness in the room, that's the sacred moment when when that happens. It was very similar to the moment when Paola died. And I remember I was holding this little baby and I said, it came out of my gut. I said,

tell me, tell me how it is before you forget. Because I had the feeling that she was coming from the same place that Paula was going to. Oh God, that totally makes me cry. I love it. I had this experience, sorry I'm choked up by that, but I have this experience that was really bizarre, but I took it to heart, which was the year, like to the day after my father died, two things happened. The father died. Two things happened. One, I won an Emmy for the show Vipe I was doing.

And I got diagnosed with breast cancer. Wow. Yeah, within a 24 hour period. Yeah. And it was like at a nowhere man, it was really scary. I mean, cancer is scary period. How are you doing now? I'm fine. Thank you so much. Oh good. Yeah. I'm fine. But my father, his whole life, he used to drink, he had a favorite

drink, diet, peach, snapple. Oh, awful. I know. I'm sure that's what the worst, right? It's utterly disgusting. And if he came to visit, I had to make's what the worst, right? It's utterly disgusting. And if he came to visit it, I had to make sure to have it on hand and not all the stores sold it. And we'd have to go around trying to locate it. And he drank it incessantly. God, so fucking crazy. But anyway, he was.

And so after I got diagnosed, I was immediately scrambling, of course, to get a team of doctors together to figure out who they were going to be. I interviewed a bunch of doctors. And I finally found this one oncologist with whom I, who had come highly recommended. And I was sitting in her office with her, talking

with her about my particular kind of cancer. And as I'm talking to her, I notice on her desk, diet peach snapple. No way. Yeah. It's like a sign. That's a sign. And I thought, I'm going to be okay. Yeah.

Absolutely. Yeah. And that's something. Yeah. I see signs like that. Yeah, I see signs like that too. I mean, I don't mean to sound like a lunatic. It sounds like I'm a lunatic. Yeah, you know, podcast. No, no, but you if we pay attention to everything that happens around of their science. Right. There are signs. You know, Rogers wife, Grace, loved ladybugs.

And it has happened often that when they are talking about her, there's a ladybug. And they are not so common. You don't see ladybugs all over the place. It's not like flies. And yet you have to think maybe we are interpreting it as a sign, but it makes us conscious of the mystery, the mysterious dimension of the universe. And even if it isn't a sign, which I would like to believe that it is, even if it isn't, to think of it as a sign is okay.

It's comforting. Comforting. Yeah. And as you say, it is an affirmation of the mystery of life and we can all agree on that. Yes. Yeah. Very mysterious. There's more with Isabella Yanday coming up after this short break.

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You're so prolific, and you obviously, I'm stating the obvious, you say that your writing is not a product of discipline but that you have to do it, right? So, can you talk about your process? I am very disciplined. I am very disciplined, but because I was trained to be since infants. Yeah. And to really work. And also because I love it. Right. I love the research. I love, I can be sitting down 12 hours in front of a computer, creating a story.

And then when I get up, I can't even move. But I don't feel the time passing. Because I'm so engaged, so involved, so entertained, so happy. So when I hear those writers that say the torment of writing, the torture of the blank pace, well don't do it then. Why are you doing it? Yeah, walk away from it. You know, Why are you doing it? Yeah. Walk away from it. You know, I get asked all the time some advice for young authors, no, for aspiring authors.

And the best advice I heard it from Elizabeth Gilbert. She said to an audience who someone asked in the audience the same question, and she said, don't expect your writing to give you fame or money. Write because you love the process. Right. And that's the whole point. Love the process. That's the point. And by the way, apply that to any passion. Yeah. Any passion. What you do right now, you are loving it, loving it. Absolutely. So you love the process. Yeah, yeah, totally. Has your approach to writing, or how has your approach

to writing evolved since you were young, since you were, say, 25 or 30? I started writing at 40. What, 40 you started? Yeah. I wrote the house of the spirits at 39. It was published when I was 40. Well, except you were writing before as a journalist.

As a journalist. But it's very different. I mean, very different. Well, so since you were 40, how is that process evolved if, in fact, it has, or is it sort of remained a constant? When I wrote the House of the Spirits, I had no idea what I was doing. I had no plan.

I had no script. I had nothing. I had no plan, I had no script, I had nothing. I just sat down and stole the story of my family. Of course I changed the names and I fictionalized it, but all those characters are my relatives. With a family like that, you don't need to invent anything. Right. As you were talking about your stepdad, I was thinking of Esteban and Clara. But I would be more my grandfather and my grandmother. My grandmother was just like Clara. I saw. And my stepfather was not an assassin,

and he was not a rapist like in the book. But he was, but the character, the personality was very much like him. I wrote with innocence, and with spontaneity that I could never have again after the first book was a success. And then after that, I realized that there was a world out there, the book industry that I had never imagined it existed, editors, agents, publishers, marketing, publicity, distributions. I didn't know anything about it. And so when I wrote my first novel, I had the freedom that I never

had again. But in time, I think that I have acquired experience. Now I know how to research. I know what I will use of the research and what is just for my information, but shouldn't be in the book. I know how to edit and correct and cut. I am merciless cutting. Before I would fall in love with the paragraph and even if it didn't fit there or even if that scene was too much, I would leave it in the book because I love it had taken me so long to write it. Now I don't care. Whatever time it takes, it's what it takes. And it will go. That's funny because that's something that is very present in my life too,

just as a producer and if I go into the edit, you have to be really quite willing to sort of kill your darlings, just get rid of them. It does take experience to really recognize that and not be in love with, yeah, yeah. And then the other thing I know now after 40 years on 28 books, that I can only write about what I'm passionate about. Once I gave myself a subject, but really I have to feel in my gut that this is something I need to tell. And if I don't have that feeling of being passionate about the subject that I'm tackling, it's a chore, and I cannot do it. The only time that I gave myself a subject and wrote about it was after Paola died, I went

into a writer's block for like three years, and I would try to write and everything that came out was so flat. So dead, it was just impossible to get around it in a way. Then I remembered that I am a journalist by training, and if you give me a subject and time to research, I can write about almost anything. So I gave myself a subject that would be as removed from death and pain and sorrow and loss and illness and death as possible. And I decided to write about lust and gluttony. The only deadly sins that I worth the trouble. So I wrote a book that is the

connection between lust and gluttony and those, that's Afrodisiacs. And that's what the book is about. Wow! And the name of the book is Afrodisiacs? Afrodite. It's the name of the book. Afrodite. And it is about Afrodisiacs and about how the polygamous cultures started in China, Persia, where the emperor or the king would have many concubines and would have to produce many children, because the well-being of the nation was reflected in all these children that the emperor could have. And so it was very important to perform. And of course,

you can perform to a certain extent only. And the idea that food or herbs or different combinations of things could make the man more potent, that was the origin of Afro-Disex. They don't work, by the way. The only thing that works is Viagra. Do you feel sexy? Now? Yeah. Do you feel sexy now? Yeah. Do I feel so?

I've never had asked myself that question in many years, but yeah, yeah I do. Yeah, I do. Do you like to have sex? Yes. Have sex changed for you as you've gotten older? Of course. Yeah. Of course it has changed. And also I have an 80 year old husband.

Right. Yeah. We're not spring chickens here. Right. But you still enjoy sex. Yeah. I enjoy sex with marijuana, especially. Ah, sorry.

But it's legal here in California, so I can tell you. Yeah, why are you apologizing? I think that's fantastic. So I get this blueberries that have marijuana, and I take my blueberry, and it's much better than without it. Partly because I get in a space in which I forget the book that I'm writing, which is always inside my head. I always have one book inside my head.

So when I take my one, I forget about the book. So sex is much better. But wait a minute, just to be clear, because I'm going to go get myself some of those blueberries. I can send you some. Yeah, send me some. But I mean, it's like a blueberry gummy, is that what you mean? Yeah, it's a blueberry covered with chocolate. Very, very small, like a blueberry gummy, is that what you mean? Yeah, it's a blueberry covered with chocolate.

Very, very small, like a blueberry, small blueberry. And it has, Mary one, I don't know if it's in the chocolate or in the blueberry, I don't know. And then I eat that thing and 45 minutes later, I'm like another person. And then after that, I can sleep 15 hours. So it's perfect. I should have it every night.

I gotta get off this podcast. I got to go down to medmen and find that for myself. Does your husband take it to? No, no, no, he doesn't because he says he has a hangover. I gave him once a one and he didn't feel good about it. I think that you know what he was raised by the Jesuits. And I think that he has something inside his brain that is like a prejudice against this. Mm-hmm. God, I just I just love this. So listen, let me let me. So happy to have this tip about the chocolate blueberry. Is there something you go back and tell yourself at 21,

Isabel? Yeah, calm down. Calm down, forgot sake. You don't have to do everything. You don't have to do so much. Give yourself some time. Be more compassionate with yourself. I was merciless with myself demanding and I treated myself as I would never treat anybody else. Wow. And I would say stop it. That's not worth it. Is there something you would go back and say yes to that you said no to? I think that I never really learned to have fun in the way that other people have fun, that let yourself go and get drunk and dance and flirt and I wasn't like that at all. I was really very straight. I dressed like a hippie. I was completely bohemian looking and I was this outrageous feminist. I had a TV program

that was outrageous too and always with humor and doing crazy stuff, but my life was so rigorous. I was a mom and I was a daughter and a granddaughter and a wife and always performing and always doing my duty. And everybody around me in the 70s was doing drugs. I never did any. Any at all and I didn't drink, but look at you now. Well now it's just the blueberry ones in a while. It isn't every night either. So... Is there something you would like me to know about aging that you haven't told me already? Yes, that you need to have good health. And aging, to have a good old age, you have to prepare for it.

It doesn't just happen. The same way that you will have good skin if you take care of your skin, otherwise it won't happen. You have to prepare for everything intellectually, your domestic life, the way you live, the way you think, the way you eat, your relationships. All that, you have to prepare. Don't think it will happen just by chance. And other people who are totally mean and horrible think that they will have a good all day. Why would you have a good old age? If you are a bastard, why would you?

Yeah. Right. Completely. Why would you be loved if you have not loved? Why would you be taken care of if you have never taken care of anybody, if you have never given anything, if you are not generous? Why would you have a good all life? It's not going to happen. Generosity, giving, that's the avenue.

And it makes you so happy. It makes you happy. It comes back to you multiplied by a thousand Well This has been a dream and a half to talk with you I suppose you I suppose you edit all the bad words. Yes, but you didn't say anything bad. Did you you did you're talking about Fuck on stuff. Oh, that's about that's staying in.

Okay. That's the way I talk. That's the way I talk to. I cannot thank you enough for taking so much time out of your day to have this conversation with me. I feel very honored and blessed to have had it. And I hope our paths cross I hope that perhaps when I come up north I could grab a cup of coffee or something. Yes, of course

I would love that. I would love to meet you person. I would like to do the same God what a treat. I'm just so happy. I am so happy. Thank you. Julia. I'm happy to you are wonderful You're absolutely wonderful Thank you. Thank you. I'm glad with your kids with your men with them. I do happy to. You're wonderful. You're absolutely wonderful. Thank you, thank you. I'm good luck with your kids, with your men, with the marijuana, with everything else. Yeah, thank you. Good luck.

I love all those tips. Love it. OK. Kiss to you. Kiss to you. Ciao. OK. Bye.

Bye. Well, that was just about the most astonishing conversation I've had in my entire life. I have to call my mom. I gotta tell her about it. I love how are you? Mom, I wish you could have been with me for this entire conversation with Isabella and A. When I heard that you were going to do her, I was like, there's some people I would be speechless

in front of. I think I would have been speechless. Mommy, well, first of all, you wouldn't have been speechless because she is incredibly warm-hearted and opens up very easily in a way without errors. She is just present and real. So you would not have been speechless. She would have brought out the best in you, for sure, because she is an extraordinary human being. I mean, I really cannot get over this conversation.

I'm so glad, oh, I just one day want to hear every word that she said. First of all, you know, she had this extraordinary relationship with her mother. She has mom 24,000 letters, all stored chronologically year by year in, in a space of the correspondence between her and her mother. She and her mother wrote letters back and forth every single day. Oh, extraordinary. Yes. Wow. It is extraordinary. So you better start writing me a letter or something. Well, you know, when you went to college, I got a file. Yeah. And it was for for

joyous letters. And I wrote to you beginning, and I wrote to you, and nothing ever came of it. And then finally, you had your birthday, which would have been the January of your freshman year, wrote me a letter then saying how wonderful it had been and how fallen and they had a surprise party for you and Joe was there. I read it to you. I gave it to you on your 60th birthday because it was so rare. And I saved it in my little file. The one single letter? Yes, one single letter. And so I decided that there was not going to be much exchange. I wish I had done that.

I would give anything to have known day by day when you were little and your sisters were little and all the things they did and said and I mean it would have been priceless but who does it? Who doesn't? Well, Isabel does and her mom did. She's 80 now and she said the best thing about being 80 is that she doesn't have to please anyone except those that she loves.

And she only looks good if it pleases her. And she went on and on about it in such a way that I thought, sign me up for 80. She did really. It was incredible. But that's beautiful. She feels freed from certain obligations that she used to be burdened by. Do you feel that way at all or not really? Oh, I do. Yes, it's a wonderful thing.

I quite agree with her. I probably am not quite as free as maybe she is, but there is a definite freeing feeling because you can see through it. You can see through how stupid it is to put on, you know, lipstick to go to the local store. I mean, you know, there was a woman in, who used to live and she used to get her dress up to take out the trash. And I just thought that to myself,

that's the most pitiful thing. I mean, you saw her, she put on high heels shoes to take the trash out. But there was nobody there. I mean, you saw her, she put on high heel shoes to take the trash out. But there was nobody there. I mean, wasn't as if, you know, well, but mom, she may have been enlightened because she might have been doing it to please herself. Well, now you've got it,

because I never did ask her the question. She was sort of famous in the neighborhood for being the trashable. I should have gone up to her and say, are you doing this for yourself or are you trying to impress us? Because if it's us, it ain't working. Yes.

All right, mommy. I love you so much. I love you so much, honey, and I will talk to you. And thanks for doing this. I'm so happy you're doing it. I'm so proud of proud. Oh my God, it's so good. Thank you, mommy. Thanks. And I'll try to write you more often.

There's more Wiser than me with Lemonada Premium. Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content. Subscribe now in Apple Podcasts. Wiser than me is a production of Lemonada Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. The show is produced by Chrissy Pease, Alex McCohen and O'Hall Opez. Brad Hall is a consulting producer. Our senior editor is Tracy Clayton. Rachel Neal is our senior director of new content in our VP of Weekly Production is Steve

Nelson. Executive producers are Stephanie Widdle's Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer, Paula Kaplan, and me. The show is mixed by Kat Yor and John Evans Evans and Music by Henry Hall. Special thanks to Charlotte Chris Mink Cohen, Ivan Karayev, and Kegan Zema. And of course my mother, Judith Boles. Follow Wiser than me wherever you get your podcasts and hey if there's an old lady in your life listen up. Hey Wiser than me listeners we want to hear from you by just answering a few questions on our listener survey. You can share feedback about show content you'd like to see in the future

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