Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus - Julia Gets Wise with Jane Fonda

Episode Date: April 11, 2023

On the premiere episode of Wiser Than Me, Julia sits down with the one and only Jane Fonda. With a career spanning over six decades, Jane – now 85 years old – hits all the highlights: staying fit at any age, fantasizing about funerals, getting heckled on set by Katharine Hepburn…and something about a fake thumb.   Follow Julia on Instagram and Twitter @officialjld. Keep up with Jane Fonda on Instagram and Twitter @janefonda. You can find out more about our show @lemonadamedia on all social platforms.   Joining Lemonada Premium is a great way to support our show and get bonus content. Subscribe today at bit.ly/lemonadapremium.    Wiser Than Me is brought to you by Hairstory. Use code WISER at checkout for 20% off your purchase, and Hairstory will donate 10% of proceeds from this code to water preservation efforts.    Wiser Than Me is brought to you by EverEve. Check out EverEve’s latest curated styles and get 20% off your first online order when you use code WISER.   Click this link for a list of all Wiser Than Me sponsors and discount codes: https://lemonadamedia.com/sponsors/.    For additional resources, information, and a transcript of the episode, visit lemonadamedia.com.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonada. Okay, so I am looking at my high school yearbook and at my senior page in particular, for those of you listening, I don't recommend doing this. If you could see this photo of me, It is just so unattractive. It's so unfortunate. It really is. I'm so somber. I look depressed while at the same time pretentious. So it's an interesting mashup of different horrible teenage characteristics. By the way, I'm also wearing a serious sucker type of jacket. And I remember thinking, God, this is the shakest jacket. And guess what? News flash.

It ain't. Anyway, underneath, you know, everybody back then, I don't know if people still do this, but you put a quote or something that's supposed to sort of represent who you are or whatever. And so the quote I have underneath my picture is from the movie Julia, which was a 1977 film that starred Jane Fonda and Vanessa Redgrave. And in the film, Jane plays Lillian Helman. It's an incredible film. I loved it then. I love it now. And I wanted to look at this quote because I recently saw this documentary about Jane Fonda on HBO called Jane Fonda in 5X.

And I was thinking the whole time that I was watching this doc, my God, this woman, Jane Fonda, she has done a lot of shit in her life. I mean, it was, it was really riveting to me. And as I watched her, I was really struck by the fact that we just don't hear enough about the lives of older women. You know what I mean? When women get older, they become less visible,

less heard, less seen in a way that really, it just doesn't happen with men. We are ignoring the wisdom of like more than half the population. It is just stunning to me that women, old women, and by the way, not even so old women are so easily dismissed and made invisible by our culture. You know, fuck that bullshit. I want to hear from older women, and that's how the beginning of the idea for this podcast was born. I'm going to talk to old ladies.

I want to know how they do it, how they did it, how do they navigate aging and life give us some tips from the front lines. And that's what we're going to do on Wiser than me. We're going to talk to women who are exactly that, Wiser than me. And guess what? Today, we're going to be talking with Jane Fonda. I'm Julia Louis-Dreyfus. This is Wiser than me. A show where each week I get to talk to women who have

lived extraordinary lives and have lived long enough to become truly wise, the first thing people always ask me is, are you going to talk to Jane Fonda? Really? Yeah. I'm going to talk to Jane. Wait, Jane, I'm going to talk to you. Okay. I'm going to talk to Jane Fonda. I'm talking to Jane Fonda. Honestly, there's nobody like her. She's an actual American icon who has lived of life of passion, artistry, reinvention, controversy, commitment, and advocacy. She was at the absolute forefront of all of these huge cultural movements, the anti-war movement, the environmental movement, women producing their own work in Hollywood movement.

The whole exercise aerobic thing. That was Jane Fonda. And now the climate crisis and a whole new way to think about and talk about aging. Oh my God. And just mentioning the name Jane Fonda can still really piss certain people off. How cool is that? She's the model of the kind of person we all need to listen to. I just can't wait

to talk to Jane Fonda who is oh so definitely wiser than me. Hi, Jane Fonda. Hi, it's an honor to talk to you. It's an honor for me to talk to you. I just, oh my God. I love I'm watching you on VEEP and my grandkids are watching you on early sign fell. And you know, you cross generations. And when I told them, I'm sorry, but I've got to go upstairs. I'm doing a podcast with you. They freaked out.

They were so excited, isn't that great? Yes, it's fabulous. I'm so pleased. Yeah, I think young people are watching sign felled right now, which is completely bizarre. So are you comfortable if I say your age? I'm 85. Hey, how old do you feel? I feel 85. In my body and mentally, I feel much, much younger, but going back to when I was much younger wasn't so happy. So I don't really want to say that mentally I'm younger. I'm not. It's just spiritually and mentally and psychologically I'm way younger than 85. But you know, one of the things

that I've learned is I've gotten into serious old age is when you're inside it as opposed to looking at it from the outside, it's not nearly as scary. Oh, wow, that's incredible. That's one thing, and the other thing is that the number, the chronology of age is not what's important, it's health. You know, for example, my dad died at 76. You know, I'm on my way to 86 now, and I'm much, much, much, much younger than he was. He was so old at 76 because he was sick. He had a heart disease.

You know, I'm fine. I'm healthy. I've had cancer, but it's in remission. And, you know, if you're healthy, 85 can be quite young. Yeah, especially if you stayed fit, you know, and I move a lot. I just finished a workout. What kind of workout do you do, by the way?

Slow. That's, that's, you'll find out that's the operative word. I do kind of the same moves, but slowly and with less weight. I say, yeah, I wanted to show you something because I think you're going to get a kick out of this. Well, you might, I say that, but. You see that picture? It's you. It's me.

And it's my senior page. And the reason I'm showing you this is because on everybody's senior page, you put a quote. And guess what my quote was? Oh gosh, what? It was words that you spoke in the exquisite movie, Julia, that you spoke as Lillian Helman. And I put it on my senior page and now here I am talking to you. What did it say?

Well, here we're going to pull it up right now. And then I was hoping that you might read it. Yes. Old paint on canvas as ages, sometimes becomes transparent. When that happens, it's possible in some pictures to see the original lines. That is called Pentemento, because the painter repented, changed his mind. Perhaps it would be as well to say that the old conception replaced by a later choice is a way of seeing and then seeing again. The paint has aged now and

I I wanted to see what was there for me once and what is there for me now. How about that? Well, that's quite a mouthful for your senior book. Yeah. For an 18-year-old, I have to say. I'm impressed. Yes, and maybe a little bit horrified because it's somewhat pretentious for an 18-year-old to put that on her senior page. Yes. Are you leaving?

I see. No. No. No, I'm not leaving. I'm looking for a quote that I like better. Oh, good. But shit, I wish I had known you back then because then I would have used the quote you like better on my page. All right. Here it is. This is T.S. Eliot, little giddin from four quartets. tests. We shall not cease from exploration and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time."

That's a much better quote from my senior page, Jane. I should have used it. God dammit. What a missed opportunity. That's a damn quote. And it's a quote that I use at the beginning of act three in my memoir, because what I discovered as I prepared for my third act was you spend your life exploring as I have. And what you realize is you go back to your girlhood and you become all the things that she was supposed to be. That you never knew at the time was really who she was because you were trying to be what other people thought she should be. That to me was why I quoted that. Right. That's been your journey. Yeah. Can you define what the third act is? Yeah.

Well, I was married to Ted Turner. I was on a ranch in New Mexico and I realized that I'm about to be 59 and holy shit in a year. I'm going to be 60. And for some reason, for me, figuring I'm probably not going to live past 90 next year is the beginning of my last act, first 30 years, second 30 years, last 30 years. And you're an actor, you know how important third acts are.

They can make sense out of the first two, right? They're very important. It's kind of a legacy that you're going to leave behind. And so I thought, I have no idea what I want to do with my third act. And then it hit me. I know what I don't want to have happen. I know that I don't want to die with regrets when it's too late to do anything about it. So one thing that I want to do in my third act is make sure that when I do die, I've cleaned up everything. I mean, you always have some regrets, but it's not going to like make me feel bad when I die die, I've cleaned up everything. I mean, you always have some regrets,

but it's not gonna make me feel bad when I die. And then the other thing is, you can't really know how to go forward if you don't know where you've been. So I spent the year between 59 and 60 researching myself. Very objectively, like it wasn't really me, it was somebody else. And what I discovered was that I'm really brave. I didn't know that before. I've been brave all my life. And that made me feel it gave me a lot of confidence. I was a much more confident person at the end than I was

when I started this research. So anybody that's approaching 60, think about doing what I discovered later, it's a thing, it's called a life review. Psychologist, psychiatrist, gerontologist, encourage older people to do this, especially older people who are depressed. Because one of the things that happens is that you discover, you know,

a lot of who we are and how we behave and everything is because of how we were parented or not parented, right? Right. And we always, because that's what kids do. We always assume that whatever happened, it was our fault. Right. And what I discovered and what people do discover when they do a life review was guess what? It had nothing to do with you. Yeah, my father whom you met. Yeah. A force by the way. Yeah, a charismatic guy, but also a narcissist.

Yeah. Which I think we have that incominent. Yes. Our father. Yes. But a wonderful man in a lot of ways. Anyway, it was, it was, it was his birthday or something, and he already passed, and my mom wrote me a note saying,

you know, oh, because they were divorced and had been my entire life. And she wrote me this note saying, I know this is, you know, a day for you that you mark and so on. And I wish that there were ways that we could talk about what happened, you know, IE and our family and so on. And I wrote it back and I said, what's keeping us from it? And so when I was like 60, she and I went into therapy together. Wow.

Yeah. That is so great. It was so great. It was such a gift. What did that do for you? It was a release as a lot of things fell into place. There was an understanding. I understood where she was coming from. She came from a fraught

family situation. And she understood what I was living through in my childhood with her and my father and my stepfather and my stepmother and so on. And it was just something opened up. I mean, I guess that falls under life for review to a certain extent. It certainly falls under the regret heading, right? Yeah. So when you're talking about regrets, what are the regrets that you've worked through yourself? I mean, it sounds like you've forgiven yourself, which is great.

Not, there's a few things that I haven't forgiven myself for and that I can't really work. I was not a very good parent, what can I say? And I talked to my kids about it, or I try to. And I try to understand why I did what the things that I did. And I try to show up for them now in ways that I didn't back then. So that's the main way that I deal with regret.

Are you a good grandparent? I am. Yeah. Yeah, I am. I like being a grandparent, but I can always walk away. Yeah, I know. That's sort of the perfect relationship in that sense. So would you say from your third act vantage point, what advice would you give to someone

who's in their second act or in their first act for that matter? Okay, let's start with the first act. Yeah, let's talk about that. It's really, really hard to be young. Yeah. People always think it's hard to be old. No, it's hard to be young. Oh, amen. I can agree with you more. It is so hard. And I personally think that it's important to let young people know it's not you, honey. It's just really hard. And middle ages where you try to become an operative person. And it's very charged when you get older. It's like, oh, I've been there done that. Didn't kill me.

Okay, okay, dear listeners, this is Julia. And I'm cutting in here because the wildest thing happened right here when we were taping this and I have to explain it to you. So Jane and I are having this lovely conversation, blah, blah, blah, right? Well, you might remember while back in California, we had what they called a bomb cyclone,

which means a big ass storm with an atmospheric river, and that storm hit right at this moment. And the power at my house, where I was on the Zoom call with Jane, went out. Listen to this. Oh no. My boss, do you have this. Oh no. Yep. The box is over. Okay, I don't want to service, and I don't want to wifi. Wait a minute.

Oh wait, it's connecting. It's trying to connect. Why are my lights coming back on? God dammit. He had call anyone. Fuck. So the power was out, and I couldn't communicate with anyone. And as you can hear, I was freaking out. And I didn't know though that I was being recorded, by the way, because the tape recorder

has a battery backup, very clever. But what I also didn't know was that the power was still on for Jane. So she's still talking to no one because my power was gone. You know, you have a perspective and you discover, you know, you, you know, people are thinking and saying you're over the hill. But then you realize, oh my God, but there's whole new vistas over the hill. Other hills, other views, you just keep going and growing.

That's... Yeah, meanwhile, back at my house, this is happening. That's my alarm going off. Yeah, okay, so to recap, I've got no power, I've got no wifi, I've got no cell service, everything had gone completely to shit. Oh, but my alarm seems to be working just fine, even though nobody's breaking in.

And my very first podcast is a complete disaster, except at Jane's house, where everything is great, with Jane talking to nobody. Do you know what I mean? As you get older, you realize the importance of being intentional. Really, that's why doing a life review was important, understanding what things have meant in your life. realize the importance of being intentional. Really, that's why doing a life review is important.

Understanding what things have meant in your life. You know, that's how you become wise. And so here's where Jane realizes what's up. I think I've lost her. Yeah, we have one second. So sorry. Is it my fault? No, no, it's not at all your fault.

You're an incredible company. Hi, I'm Rachel. Hi, Rachel. That's our producer, no, it's not at all your fault. You're an incredible company. Hi, I'm Rachel. Hi, Rachel. That's our producer, Rachel, who swooped in and Jane was just so cool. It's not anything I said. Not at all. This is incredible. She didn't hang up on me.

She did not. She did not. Not at all. Your outfit is incredible. You look great in that color. Thanks. This is a little lemon top. Little lemon is incredible. You look great in that color. Thanks. This is a Lululemon top. Lululemon is great.

Yeah. So Jane Fonda is completely smooth and chatting about Lululemon while I'm freaking out. And when we realize the power was absolutely not coming back on anytime soon, Jane very generously agreed to record the rest of the interview another day, which we did, and you'll hear that after the break. [♪ Music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in over 500 million empty plastic bottles every year. It's enough to fill 1,164 football fields. I love products that do better than that, which is why HairStory is a sponsor of this show. HairStory has been founded on the principles

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That's pair P-A-I-R-I wear.com slash wiser. Hi Jane. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hey, I got power back. Thank God. I was worried that you were going to starve to death and freeze. Isn't

that amazing what happened? It's not the most amazing thing. It was so bizarre. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to come back and continue our conversation. So can we talk about body and self-image? And I mean, you're this incredible aerobics pioneer. I don't have to tell you this, you know this. And so much of your life has been about fitness. Talk about your body now, if you don't mind, and what has surprised you about your aging body. I'm curious to know because, as, I mean,

I'm not a young person anymore, and I'm surprised by what the hell's happening to my body. For real. It's really like you're kidding. Yeah. And I'm wondering what your experience is. Well, I'll tell you one thing. I am really grateful that I spent not all my life, but a good chunk of my life getting strong. Right. have muscles, even at 85, I'm strong, and yet even so, getting in and out of those really high up cars, picking up my 3.5 year old grandson is hard, and yet still, I'm surprised at how hard things get even when you are strong, but I have made peace with my body. It has gotten me

a long ways. It's stood up for me. So I appreciate my body. I don't criticize it and hate on it anymore. And I- It's such a blessing. But I live alone, see, Julia. I don't have to show it to anybody. Yeah. I'm vain enough so that it would be hard for me to get naked in front of not if I'd lived with somebody 50 years Which I wish it had been my fate, but you know, I wouldn't be able to get on dressed in front of a new lover really No, I've got too many nicks and you know scars and holes and all kinds of things I've got two fake zip and a fake knee and a fake shoulder and even a fake thumb. Fake thumb? How do you get a fake thumb?

What are you talking about? I couldn't even hold a pencil. They removed a bone and it and replaced it with a cadaver's cartilage. Now it works fine. Look at that. Yeah. You've had plastic surgery, correct? Yeah.

I'm sorry to say yes. Are you really sorry to say? Look at that. Yeah. You've had plastic surgery, correct? Yeah. I'm sorry to say yes. Are you really sorry to say? Yeah. I'm sorry that I did get plastic surgery. I am. I wish that I had been able to grow old and piece with my face, but I wasn't able to. And I don't feel good about it.

It's not real. I see. But I can't do anything about it now. Well, I think you look marvelous. Thank you. You're welcome. I was at a dinner once with Mel Brooks and Anne Bancroft. Before she passed away. Yeah. Did you ever get to know them or meet them? Well, I mean, I made a movie with her called Agnes of God. And I knew her because of the studio and at least Rossburg. Yeah. It was sort of at the towards the end of her life

But I didn't know she was sick and I said to her and you're such a magnificent actress, which of course she was Mm-hmm I said, we don't get to see you anymore. Why are you not out there? You're so wonderful and she said to me I can't look at this she said and. And she was referring to her face. And I thought, first of all, the most exquisite woman practically ever, in my view, absolutely gorgeous. And the fact that she was saying that, I think aging is hard for a woman in ways it is not for a man.

And it was right. I mean, Greta Garbo retires at an early age among many, many other great beauties for the same reason that Annie's talking about, you know, and yet the guys go and they, you know, their jowls are hanging and there's all kinds of, and nobody cares. Nobody cares. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's been hard for me to watch myself age on screen. That's for sure. I haven't even noticed it. Oh, thank you very much. So now you're single.

Do you think you have to be single to be your own authentic self? It totally depends on your early childhood. I mean, I unfortunately don't think that I can totally be myself in a romantic relationship with a man. I'm not willing to try again. The last time I tried was about eight years ago, and I just can't do it.

I don't have it in me to really be myself with a man. And then when you were trying to do it eight years ago, what happened that made you realize, I can't do this again. I don't know since my very beginning of my life, I think I was conditioned to not be who I am in order to make a man love me. And I just don't want to do that anymore. I don't have time. Do you miss having sex with a man? Yes. But I tell you, after the season of Bracen Frankie, where Frankie and I created a vibrator for older people, everybody in the world sent me vibrators.

I got a drawer full, so it's great. What's your favorite vibrator? Do you have a fave? The rabbit, the famous rabbit. The famous rabbit. Right. Okay. When did you know that it was like time to call it quits? When did you come to that conclusion, time to call it quits with a man?

I usually know that the relationship should end when I begin fantasizing about their funerals. I'm not kidding. I plan their funerals and then I realize, what am I doing? You plan the funeral. Are you speaking at the funeral? Yeah, I'm the main speaker. No, for some reason, when my relationships end, I always think of death. It is kind of like dying to have an

important relationship and I remember when I was working with the lawyers on my divorce with Tom Hayden I put into the document that he's not allowed to speak at my funeral see in that case I thought I was the one that was dying and I didn't want him speaking at my funeral. Wow. Do you have anybody you want speaking at your funeral now? And I'm making a list. I'm making a list. Yeah, not only that, but the music that I want played, I'm going to be buried in a shroud.

I've already, I know where in the same wildflower, wild grass filled, no headstones feel that Tom Hayden is buried in, because I don't want the children to have to go to two different places to talk to us and think about us. So it's all arranged. I'm gonna be wrapped in a sheet and put in a hole. And who's speaking at your funeral, ideally?

I'm not gonna tell you. This could be a whole new thing. I'm just so fascinated that you have the plan. I just love it. I know. Yeah, no, it's good. So I get the sense you're not afraid of dying. No, not at all.

I kind of look forward to it. It's like a new adventure. Yeah. You know it's a new adventure. I have a friend actually who just lost her mother and her mother was so looking forward to leaving this earth and because she'd been in a lot of pain actually. And just about 20 minutes before she died,

she said how excited she was to go. And then she says, oh, oh my God, I haven't put my lipstick on. Oh, that's like my aunt. Yes. And she put her lipstick on. Yeah. And then she died about 20 minutes later. Oh, I love that. I love that. I do too. My father's sister, one of them, when she was dying, she also made sure to have the right lipstick on. And, and the right, the right nightgown. Yes. Because of who she was going to see on the other side. See, I'm not lipstick on and the right night gown. Yes. Because of who she was going to see on the other side.

See, I'm not so sure about seeing anybody on the other side. And I don't care about the lipstick, but I want to be able to have things to say to the people that are with me. I hope that there'll be people with me who care for me. And that I won't just clam up. My dad just clammed up.

I couldn't get him to say anything. Really, not one word. No. Assuming you get to see him again, you can open up the conversation. I'd like to. So in the documentary you said, I wanted to be a good girl.

A good girl is not an ambitious person. So how did you find your ambition? I don't know. I've never felt very ambitious, particularly. Really? For a long time, I just kind of went from one thing to another because somebody wanted me. I couldn't believe it.

The idea of saying, no, if somebody offered me a job seemed impossible. I was just so grateful that somebody wanted to hire me. Then when I started to do my own stuff, starting with coming home in a way with clu, even though I didn't produce clu, I started to care more than about what I was doing. Right. I didn't look at parts in relation to what's this going to do for my career ever. Well, I mean, as somebody on the outside looking at your career, I would say that this is a woman who is ambitious and maybe the word is wrong. I also think that if you call a woman ambitious, that can sometimes feel negative as opposed

when you call a man ambitious. I mean, if you say, oh, that man is very ambitious. So in your mind, you think, he's successful. Powerful, he's successful. So that woman's ambitious, you think, stay out of her way. A bitch, yeah.

Exactly. And that's why I went when I was trying out for the lead role that Natalie Wood ended up having and splendor in the grass. Ilya Kazan asked me, are you ambitious? And I said, no. In the minute the word came out of my mouth, I knew that was a mistake. I could see it on his face. Oh, he didn't want that answer.

No. But it's also not a very fair question to ask. And that mean, you know, anyway. Who says that any of them are fair? Correct. Had he chiaiske, he once said to me, what have you ever done besides being Henry Fondest daughter?

I mean, those guys, they were, you know, they were never compassionate or anything. Who was a good mentor for you? Who gave you healthy advice or steered you in a way that was good for you? I'll tell you what, I was brought up to never ask for advice or help. And I erroneously thought that that was the way you were supposed to be if you were a grown-up until I was about 60. And so I know I never ask for advice. I, that seemed to me to be a weakness, but Catherine Hepburn without my ever asking her

Yes gave me a lot of really good advice when we were making on golden pond Like? Oh, like. I am terrified of going over backwards, whether it's a backward summer solter or a backward dive. So doing the backflip was really, really challenging for me plus I hate cold water and dark water, cold dark water on it in a backflip is my biggest nightmare. And I had to do it because Catherine Hepburn challenged me.

And so when I was practicing, practicing, practicing, and covered with bruises, I finally did it. And as I crawled out of the water, she had been hiding in the bushes. And she came out, she came over to me, I was shocked. And she said, Jane, you've taught me to respect you. You never want to get soggy. You always have to stand up to your fears. Never get soggy. That was a really good piece of advice. Stand up to your fears. And I thought that was pretty good. And, yeah, she wasn't a very nice person and she didn't really like me, but she, she was there. Wait a minute. What do you mean she didn't like you? Why didn't she like you?

She told Dominic Don Wants, Jane Fonda, Hasno Soul. Well, she told me the first time I met her, she said, I don't like you. Anyway, there's all kinds of reasons, but she was jealous. Talk about competitive and ambitious. Oh my God. I had to realize early on that I had to be subservient. And once I started being subservient, then she was nice to me. Did she know that you did a great impression of her?

Because that's a great impression. No, no she didn't. You know, after the day after the Oscars, we were all three, me, my dad and her were nominated. Yeah. And I'd won two already, she'd won three. So if I won and she didn't would be tied. But if I didn't win and she did, then she'd have four. And I'd only have two. Neither she nor my dad went to the Oscars.

They were both ill. And I called her to congratulate her and she said, you'll never catch me now. No. Seriously. How old was she? How old was she when she said that, Jane? A little younger than I am now. Seriously. How old was she? How old was she when she said that, Jane? A little younger than I am now.

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I know. It took me a minute to even realize what she was talking about. What she was saying. Yeah. Exactly.

But then I got to, you know, talk about competitive. Wow. Yeah. Did she have a sense of humor? Was she, like when she said that, was she trying to be cute and clever? No. No, it was just her, what she was really, that was her, really, said that was she trying to be cute and clever? No, really. No, it was just her what she was really that was her really what she was thinking and she's she just couldn't keep it in. Oh, she was really competitive. Yeah. I have to say I don't like women like that. It bums me out.

It makes me feel because there's a lack of generosity there that for me it's stymies creativity. You know what I mean? I mean, there's nothing I love more than working with generous actors and actresses. I mean, I get the sense that Lily Tomlin is incredibly generous. And credibly. She's got a huge heart. Yes. Huge heart. Yeah.

Female friendships are a huge part heart. Huge heart. Yeah. Female friendships are a huge part of your life now. Yes. It sounds like they're kind of your life's blood in a way. Is it in this third act of your life that you realize the, the truly realize the value of female friendships or did you sort of always know that? I never knew it.

Oh. Yes, it was only when I was older. No, I grew from the very beginning of my life. As far as I was concerned, if I'm gonna make it through life, I'm gonna hitch my wagon to my father's star or to some other man's star. I've got to be with an alpha male. I didn't know that word at the time,

but a strong man, interesting man who can take me into worlds that I'm not familiar with. And I had no women friends. It wasn't until I gave birth to a daughter that I started very tentatively having women friends. And then when I became an activist, it was the women that I met here in this country, the women activists that were the most responsible for my new consciousness and transformation. It was being with them was like looking at the world,

looking through a keyhole at the world that we're trying to create. They behaved like what we should all behave like with kindness and generosity and humanity. And, oh my gosh, I thought, isn't that interesting? Men have never treated me this way before. These women, and there's three or four that specifically, that when they looked at me, I know they were looking at me, not at the celebrity. And I felt seen, and they asked me how I felt,

and what I thought about things. Men never did that. More with Jane Fonda after the break. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. The conversations we have on this show, why, more than me, are all about deepening our understanding of ourselves. Life is messy, uncertain, and exciting, and it pays off to have a lot of tools in your tool belt. Our sponsor BetterHelp offers one of those tools, Accessible Therapy. They directly connect you with a licensed therapist who can take you on an ongoing journey of self-discovery. Therapy has helped me and millions of others find a better way to relate to ourselves and the world around us. BetterHelp offers both individual therapy and therapy for couples, and you can get matched

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That's BetterHelp-H-E-L-P- com slash wiser. Do you think in terms of your activism and being an actor? Do you consider yourself an activist first and an actress second? Or are they on par with each other? How do you feel about that? They're on par with each other because you, when it's a good script and a good character, I love it so much. And it connects to my activism because it gives me a platform. I mean, listen, I have been an activist at a time when I had no hits TV series or movies or anything.

And how I was treated then, as opposed to how I was treated with Grace and Frankie at my back, totally different. Describe that difference. Well, police roughed me up. You know, I was called Names. Hair pulled out of my head and chunks, all kinds of things like that. Now that I had a successful TV series, I, that didn't happen. Also, don't you think

being older too is helpful? They're not going to pull hair out of your head. Well, I depends on where I go. I'm going to be spending a lot of time in the Gulf region coming up. So I'm going to see, we'll see what happens. What are you going to do in the Gulf region? Well, the Biden administration has issued more than two dozen permits for new gas terminals in an area that is already buckling under cancer and heart defects and lung diseases because of all the pipelines and refineries and everything in the Gulf. And if these gas terminals go through, it's a climate time bomb. It's the end. It's a disaster. We have to stop it.

So I'm going to go there with fire drill Fridays and film interviews and try to build opposition to this locally and nationally so that we can stop it. Biden should be ashamed of himself. I'm glad you're doing that. When are you doing that soon? Well, I go in June. I go in May. And then the second half of the year we're focusing on California, because

you know, we got Gavin Newsom, the governor, to sign a bill that was so important to create a 3200 foot health and safety buffer between oil wells, fracking pits, and community schools, and playgrounds and stuff like that. And now the oil companies have got a ballot that will vote on in 24 to undo it. I would like to be a part of the work you're going to do here in California. Wow. Well, that's a big deal. Well, I would love to do it. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. Thank you. Please. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. All right. So now I just want to ask you a couple more quick questions and then you can bolting and get the hell out of here.

Unless the power goes out and then I'll have to call you back a third time. Is there something you'd go back and tell yourself at 21? No is a complete sentence. Yeah. No apology after it. Just no. Just no. That's a good one.

I love that. That came from, I'll tell you who that came from Annie Lamont Who was doing a book signing in Atlanta was the biggest turnout for any author I had ever been to I love her books Me too and somebody asked her to read a script they had and there were like 2,000 people in the theater and she said No, I Learned it a. And she said, no, I learned at AA, that is a complete sentence. Oh, that's so good. I love that.

I'm totally going to use that. Speaking of saying no, is there something you'd go back and say yes to? You know, I often think I'm sure that there were a number of men that came my way who were perfect for me, who were not afraid of saying, come on, Fonda, show up. Let's be real, okay? Show up.

And could have taken it and could have revealed himself as well. And didn't need drugs or alcohol or anything else to and I wonder who they were and if I had been wiser I would have said yes. I say yeah. This is not a question this is a comment. I have to say your hair color is stunning. Isn't it wonderful and it's just my own hair color. When did you decide to go gray? I just decided that I didn't want to have to keep putting chemicals on my head. So I said to Marta Kaufman, who is the showrunner for Grayson Frankie, Marta, I want to go gray. Can Gray school gray too? And so, you know, put it into the storyline. And we did what we had Gray's gradually getting gray. Wow. I'm looking forward to doing that.

I really am. I'm very gray. Is there anything that you want me to know about aging, as I'm entering this third act of my own? Is there anything I should know, Jane? Can you tell me from the front lines? Well, successful aging in large part depends on good health.

So stay healthy. Okay. Posture is important. You can seem very old if you have bad posture, even if you're not all that old. And keep exercising. You've got to stay strong. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Just moving, just moving, walking, yeah. Yeah. Okay. just keep moving. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, I just adore you and. And I you, you know, it's funny. I said, I just for the, so the audience knows this. We both went to a huge mansion to celebrate Norman Lear's 100th birthday. And on the way, I saw you and I came over and introduced myself. And I assumed that we knew each other other but we didn't.

We never really met before. You know what though? We did meet once very, very briefly at a, this was back when you were married to Ted and you, it was at a global green event that Michele Gorbachev had. I remember that. I remember that very well that event. But I'll tell you a story about Ted really quick. Yeah. I was seated next to him and he made a comment about all the money that we, him and me,

had made from the syndication of Seinfeld, right? And I said, well, actually, Ted, you know what? I don't own Seinfeld, so I didn't really make that kind of money. And then he reaches into his pocket and he gave me $100 bill. Oh, thanks, Dad. But that's Dad. Yeah. Yeah.

Anyway, I was surprised that you looked so surprised when I came up to you and greeted you at that Norman Lear party. And I think I was just waiting to become friends with you. Because I admire you so much. And so this has been really fun for me. This has been a really big treat for me to be interviewed by you and talking to you. I appreciate it a lot, Julia.

I do too, Jane. And I can't tell you what it means to me that you want to work with us on the California oil issue. Yeah, I do. And I admire you and have felt very, very blessed to have been able to have this conversation with you. I just think you're an extraordinary human being. Thanks and keep that power on. Okay, we'll talk soon.

Thanks. Bye. Thank you. Bye-bye. Okay, first podcast. Complete it. Oh. What I have to do now is call my mom. Okay, first podcast completed. What I have to do now is call my mom.

I've got to tell her about this. Her name is Judy, by the way, and she's 89. And, uh, well, I hope she takes my call. Hello, hello, hi. Hi, mummy. How are you? Okay. Can you see me okay? Yes. Can you see me? Hi, I can see you and your blue. Mom, did you get new glasses? No, I can't find my other glasses.

These are great looking, mom. Thank you. Mom, I talked to Jane Fonda today. Oh, wow. I think I have a new really good friend and I am not kidding you. I think I have a new, really good friend, and I am not kidding you. I think that we became friends in this conversation.

She's an incredibly interesting woman, and I think you would really like her. Well, she has done some things. I don't even know where to begin, because it was really such an exciting conversation. Actually, I do know where to begin because it was really such an exciting conversation. Actually, I do know where to begin. So I showed her my senior yearbook page because do you remember I put a quote on my senior yearbook page and it was from Lillian Helman?

I asked her if she would read it and she did. She read it aloud. She must have been so touched by that. I mean, you're so touched by it. That's incredible. But what she said was, this is a better quote. She pulls a book out and she reads the following from TS Eliot's little getting. We shall not cease from exploration. And the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time.

That's so wonderful. Can you talk about where I started? Like in your mind, are there remnants of who I was when I was young now? Oh, absolutely. Because there was a direction that you had innately. And it was sort of both improvisation and it was what happened to you when you became a character, when you were playing and you would be improvising. It was completely believable.

And I remember when you were like five and you were sitting in the back seat of the car and you would be having a conversation with Mickey Mouse. And it would be not just a little pastime. It got to be, and I'm not saying it was a loose nation, it was something that you were creating and it had mass to it. By the way, I remember being in the back seat playing Mickey Mouse.

I think it might have been Mighty Mouse actually, if I recall. Maybe you heard it. Not to split hairs. But I do remember having an epiphany thinking, what if Mighty Mouse fails? What if he's got something to do and it doesn't work out? So I was sort of rewriting something.

Anyway, it's stayed with me ever since. Right. Well, that's very interesting because, I mean, I think all play is about life. Right. Don't you? Totally, yeah. I think it's wonderful. All right, mommy, I have to say goodbye to you now. I'm being told by my producers that I have to say goodbye. Well, I guess you have to listen to them, and I say goodbye.

Oh, and I'll also say I love you. I love you too, very much. Very much. Bye. OK, bye. There's more Wiser than me with Lemonade Premium. Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content. Subscribe now and Apple Podcasts. Wiser than me is a production of Lemonade Media created and hosted by me, Julia Louis

Dreyfus. The show is produced by Chrissy Pease, Alex McCohen and O'Hallopes, Brad Hall as a consulting producer. Our senior editor is Tracy Clayton. Rachel Neal is our senior director of new content and our VP of Weekly Production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Stephanie Widdle's Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer, Paula Kaplan, and me. The show is mixed by Cat Your and Johnny Vince Evans and Music by Henry Hall. Special thanks to Charlotte

Chris M. Cohen, Ivan Karayev, and Kegan Zema. And of course my mother Judith Boles. Follow Wiser than me wherever you get your podcasts. And hey, if there's an old lady in your life, listen up. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ Hey Wiser than me, listeners. We want to hear from you. By just answering a few questions on our listener survey, you can share feedback about show content you'd like to see in the future and help us think about what brands would serve you best. And even better, once you've completed the survey, you can enter for a chance to win a $100

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