Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus - Julia Gets Wise with Jean Smart

Episode Date: May 6, 2026

On this episode of Wiser Than Me, Julia sits down with 74-year-old scene-stealer Jean Smart. They get into the final season of Hacks, the highs and lows of a career in Hollywood and what it feels like when great material finally meets the actor it was meant for. Jean opens up about parenting a teenager in her 70s, dating as a widow, and her family’s witchy past. Plus, Julia shares behind-the-scenes Seinfeld writer’s secrets, and her 92-year-old mom Judy reflects on her days as a beauty queen. Follow Wiser Than Me on Instagram and TikTok @wiserthanme and on Facebook at facebook.com/wiserthanmepodcast. Find us on Substack at wiserthanme.substack.com. Keep up with Jean Smart @realjeansmart on Instagram. Find out more about other shows on our network at @lemonadamedia on all social platforms. Joining Lemonada Premium is a great way to support our show and get bonus content. Subscribe today by hitting 'Subscribe' on Apple Podcasts or lemonadapremium.com for any other app. For exclusive discount codes and more information about our sponsors, visit https://lemonadamedia.com/sponsors/.  For additional resources, information, and a transcript of the episode, visit lemonadamedia.com.

Lemonada. I just had a birthday a little while ago, which seems to happen almost every year, and it got me thinking about time. You know how they say time flies when you're having fun, which is true. I mean, it really does. But time also flies when you're getting old. I was in line for coffee at the airport, and this was just yesterday. And the woman behind the counter looks at me and says, Seinfeld, right? And I nod, yes.

And then she turns to the brestah next to her and says, she's from Seinfeld. And the brest says, before my time. And I thought, no, no, silent movies. That's before my time. I mean, come on, man. My time is right now, isn't it? isn't it? I mean, there's some social media thing about the 1990s going around. I don't know if you've

seen it. And my publicist said to post something from the 90s because everybody's doing it. So I asked my assistant to, okay, hang on. I sound, honestly, I sound like a complete Hollywood asshole. I just said my publicist and my assistant in the same sentence. They are actual people. Lindsay Krug is my publicist and one of my favorite friends ever, and Will Schlegel is my lovely and very kind assistant. But back to thinking about time. So, Lindsay said, hop on this trend and post something. And I was incredibly busy, so I asked Will if he could do it. And he posted this little montage of me from the 90s, you know, Seinfeld shows and award stuff and, you know, life in general.

And as always, he did a great job. But when I saw it, I thought, whoa, that period. of my life feels like last month. I mean, it feels so familiar, so now. It doesn't feel old-timey at all. But these photos are from like 30 years ago. 30 years ago or more even. How is this possible?

30 years time is just flying. I mean, it is flying. I have nothing profound to say about this, just nothing. I mean, I know it's obvious, but I really feel it. So look, I have an equation for you. If your mom was 30 years old when you were born, then when she was 40, you were 10. And that means that you were 25% of her age. But when she's 60 years old, you'll be 30. And that's 50% of her age. So you'll be 25% closer to her age than you were when you were 10. And from that day on, you'll keep getting closer in age. And when she turns 100, you'll be 70% of her age. And when she turns 100, you'll be 70% of her age. for age. You're catching up. I mean, you are kind of aging faster and faster as you get older. Life really is flying by, in fact. So we better grab as much of it as we can, you know, the good, the bad, the terrifying, the thrilling, all of it. That's what the women on this

podcast keep reminding me. How fantastic then to talk to someone today who is grabbing more life right now than ever. Maybe even 100% of it. The unstoppable Gene Smart. I'm Julia Louis Dreyfus, and this is Wiser Than Me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. Can you believe that HACS is in its fifth and final season? I mean, like I just said, time really does fly when you're having fun. And if you're watching Gene Smart on Hacks, you are having fun.

And so is she. Four Emmys in and she's still killing as Deborah Vance, a legendary female comedian in her 70s, clawing her way back to relevance in the twilight of her career. In an industry that worships youth and shoves it to the top of the call sheet, that alone feels radical. In Hacks, Jean is the oldest woman in the room playing the oldest woman in the room. She squeezes out every possible laugh and more. Few performers can deliver a cutting one-liner followed by a moment of quiet heartbreak with the same precision as Gene Smart. But, I mean, to tell you the truth,

she's been doing that for decades. A lot of us first fell in love with her as sweet Charlene in designing women in the late 80s. Then she popped up on Frazier as Lana Gardner, loud, hilarious, and unforgettable, a role that won Gene her first two primetime Emmy Awards. And on the not-so-fuzzy side, she was racking up stuff like Fargo and the Watchmen and Mayor of Easttown. Ugh, the best.

And then she topped it all with Deborah Vance. It's a role that reminded a lot of viewers just how formidable Gene Smart is. Along the way, she was happily married for 30-plus years to her husband, Richard Gilliland, whom she lost five years ago. Together they raised two kids, one of whom they adopted when Jean was 57. What? What? How many women in their 70s have a teenager? And you know we're going to talk about that. For years now, she has used her platform for advocacy. Gene, who is diagnosed with type 1 diabetes as a teenager, has even testified before the United States Congress about diabetes research funding. And after losing her father to Alzheimer's disease, she's also been active in raising awareness for all. Alzheimer's Research. Please welcome a mother and advocate, a Grammy nominee, a Tony nominee, a three-time Golden Globe winner, and a seven-time Emmy Award winner, my favorite kind of actor, a working actor and a woman who is, yes, very much wiser than me, Gene Smart. Hi, Jean. You should be a publicist. Wow. I'd like a side job. If you're looking for a publicist,

I could do that for you, no problem. So, Jean, may I ask your real age? 74. How old do you feel? It depends on the day. This morning, I felt 99. Right now, I feel about 74. Tonight I'll feel, you know, late 50s.

I'm going to see my son's opening night of the high school musical. He's the male lead. Oh, my God. Really? How exciting. Yeah, that'll really make you feel. youthful. Oh, that's so wonderful. Yeah.

What's the best part about being your age right now? You know, I always wish I was 20 years younger. Do you really? Physically. Physically. I wish I was, I felt, physically I wish I felt 20 years younger. Right. But no, I mean, I'm having such a good time doing the show.

I mean, I'm continually amazed that I keep getting offered these wonderful roles. I mean, I'm eternally grateful. I can't really entirely explain it because I'm supposed to be, you know, moving to the back of the course line at this point. No. But, I mean, you have a youthful energy. There's no doubt about it. Why did you feel 99 earlier? Oh, just, you know, aches and pains.

I broke my knee last summer and I'm still in a lot of rehab. Uh-huh. That was a drag. Oh, I see. Got it. I have to tell you something in prepping for this. I watched the episode of V. that you were so kindly graced us with your presence on.

It was fun. And I wish we'd gotten more to do together, and I think I told you that at the time. But I don't know if you remember, because I'd actually, I mean, I forget these things. After they're done, it's like I drop it from my hard drive. Oh, I have to tell you. What? I just saw the movie you did with James Gandalfini. You guys were fabulous.

I loved that movie. I was so jealous. Oh, I was so jealous. Thank you. Thank you. That's so nice of you to say. Did you love working with him? I did love working with him.

I had a little crush on him. Yeah, he was a sexy guy. There's no doubt about it. He was surprisingly insecure, Gene. Maybe you won't be surprised. You heard that. Well, he's probably a guy who didn't think he was attractive. And guys like that don't realize that women find those kind of bears.

those big bears who are kind of a little shy. That's super attractive. Yeah, super appealing. And also, I think he was a little embarrassed to be an actor and thinking about emotional life. He was, you know, because he was sort of fighting this tough guy version of himself. You know, not unlike Tony Soprano, but also unlike Tony Soprano. So the character that he played in Enough Said, he was very much like that guy

that he was playing. It was smart of him to do that. It was smart of him. And he also really, he did fight back a lot with the language. He was, he would, he was constantly pushing Nicole Hollisenter. That's somebody you need to get to know.

Do you know her at all? No. She wrote and directed the film. Oh, no, no. I just met her. What am I saying? I always forget her last name because I can't pronounce it.

Yeah, no, I just met her. Yeah. He's fantastic. And you would love working with her. She's a wonderful director. But he was always pushing Nicole saying, I don't want to do it that way. No, I don't. And I remember there was some point where we were working on a scene.

I said, just do what she says. Just do it. Just do. I did. And he did. And he did. And did he agree after he did it that it was right? Yeah.

Anyway, it's very sad that he passed away. Oh, that was very sad. Felt really lucky to work with him. Oh, you guys were fabulous together. Thank you. Hey, by the way, as I was getting ready to talk to you, of course, watched a bunch of your work and read articles and stuff. And one of the things I did watch that I was really intrigued by was the Who Do You Think You Are episode you did about your family genealogy? Yes.

I mean. So what's so extraordinary that you find out? out in this episode is that you are directly related to one of the women who was accused of witchcraft in the Salem witch trials. Dorcas Horr was her name. H-O-A-R. H-O-A-R. Although in one of the documents, they spelled it as if they thought that was her profession,

you know, Dorcas comma, whore, W-H-O-R-A. It was like, oh, my God. It's an unfortunate name, eight times great-grandmother. But I'll tell you something. the craziest part of the entire thing was not on the show. What was it? I found out through Wikipedia, and they didn't put this part on the show

because they don't put anything on the show that they can't absolutely 100% document. But they know this was her. She was the only person who was convicted of witchcraft who confessed after they were convicted. And they said she was very smart to do that because it bought her some time. Right.

And she ended up not being. being hanged. Right. She missed being hanged by a day. But they said that when they arrested her, she had what they call an elf lock, which my understanding is it's like a dread lock. It's a long lock of her that's sort of twisted and matted and braided as if the elves have been dancing in your air at night and wicked spirits and things. Cool. And it was of another color. I'm assuming white. I can't imagine what other color would be. Right. And when they arrested her, it was four feet, seven inches long. She can't have been taller than that back in 1692.

And they wanted to cut it and she flipped out and said if they cut it, she'd die. So grandma was an interesting eccentric gal. An interesting. She might have had some mental health issues, possibly. Yeah. God bless her. Well, also too, because I have a theory because some people, if they have a head injury when they're young, then the hair there grows out white.

No. Yeah. I didn't know that. So maybe she had a, who knows. It was also rumored that she killed grandpa, her husband. Okay. He died. Wait, were they accusing her of that?

It's part of her. No. No, but apparently that was part of her past. So it was very easy to then accuse her, I think, of being a witch, because she already was sort of suspect. And she was an older, when she was 57, which was really old back then. Right. And also she had gotten in trouble for having.

a book on fortune-telling. I see. Which was a big no-no. And she'd also been in trouble because she and a couple of her daughters had sort of a little cat burglary thing going on in Beverly, Massachusetts, which is right outside Salem, where the maids who worked for all the rich people in town would steal stuff and bring it to my grandma and the daughter. Oh, I see.

So she was a rebel, grandma. Yeah, she was a rebel. The craziest thing about being on that genealogy show was the reason I got on the show. Why? I was doing a little movie in Palm Springs, and we had just, I think we had just started shooting, like maybe we'd been shooting for two days or something. And the hairdresser was a friend of mine, but the makeup artist was new to me. And a friend of hers, who was also another makeup artist,

I just happened to find out, oh, my friend's doing makeup on a show in town. I'm going to drop by the set and say hi to her. So this gal came into the trailer and was talking to her. friend and as she was talking to her friend she got a phone call on her cell from Lisa Kudrow who produces who do you think you are oh yes of course and I said oh well tell her I'm such a fan and I love that show she produces so she said oh well you know she said that you should come on the show and I said oh that'd be wonderful and then after the whole thing happened and then I found out about the hair and all this kind of crazy stuff, I remembered that when I was two days before that,

just as we were about to start shooting, I was sitting in the hairdresser's chair. And I had this fabulous long kind of red, reddish, dark red wig. And I was just looking at the mirror and I said, you know what, Susan? I said, I really, I don't know why. I just picture her with a white streak in her hair. No. I said, what do you think? Wouldn't that look cool? I just kind of see her that way. just like a white streak. And she said, yeah, sure. So every day she'd pin a white extension in my wig. No.

How? And maybe 48 hours later, this girl happens to drop by the trailer, happens to get a phone call from Lucy Kudra on her cell, who invites me to come on the show, and I find, and I meet my eight-times great-grandmother. It's like she was up there going, tell my story, tell my story, tell my story. Wow. Wild about the whole thing.

Oh, that is mind-blowing. By the way, where is it? Hold on a second. Oh, here it is. You need this book. This book is called The Witches. It's written by... I have it. I have it. Oh, you have it. I know. Yes. I think she's in the... I think she's mentioned in there. I think she's mentioned. She's one of the characters, Dorkest Horror. Okay, good. So you have it. Because... I do. Oh, no, it's a fantastic book. Fantastic. Stacey Schiff, who wrote it is an amazing... writer, of course. And okay, good. I'm glad you have it. Yeah. Well, anyway, I see that you described yourself as being shy when you were little. Were you shy? I don't think I was shy, but I'm kind of weird. I'm either one extreme or the other. It's either like I'm very, very private and don't want to share. But once you get me talking about myself, I don't shut up. So it's sort of like, you know, it's like I don't go to therapy, although lately I've been thinking that I should. And I'm serious. But it's good. It can be helpful. I've started recently. Oh, no. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And my, my, my husband and I went for a while to a couple's therapy, many, many moons ago. And so I saw the guy also separately a little time because, you know, I think they try to see you as a couple. And then they try to see you separately so you can, you know, say things about your spouse that you don't want to say in front of them. Right. But I remember he asked me something once. And I said, the therapist, and he was, he was terrific. I really admired him.

He was very smart, man. He asked me something. I said, I'm not going to tell you that. He said, what do you mean? I said, that's private. And he was just like, I was like, I'm serious. I was like, I'm in therapy. Why would I tell you that?

So. That's a good line. That's a good line for a therapy scene, by the way. Wouldn't that be hilarious? Yes. How dare you ask me that? That's private. That was exactly my reaction.

I thought, Absolutely not. I'm discussing that. But I was the, no, I was the family clown. You were, yeah. Because you did plays and parades and things in your neighborhood. That was my sister's doing, though. Oh, really? Yeah, she was the organizer.

Like, this is what we're going to do, we're going to do this, and we're going to do this. And, you know. Yeah. It was hilarious. Fun. I don't know how we got the boys to go along with all of it. I really don't. But we did.

Well, it was very cool. If you assert yourself, they'll do it. they're told. I mean, we did that in our neighborhood too, but all the boys were younger than us. So we just told them, stand here, do that. You play this, you know, blah, blah, blah. It's time to take a break. My conversation with Gene Smart continues in just a moment. And by the way, we just launched a Wiser Than Me newsletter on Substack, where you can get behind the scenes details from my conversation with Gene and more. You can subscribe now at wiser than me.substack.com. You'll get photos, videos, letters from me.

Think exclusive bonus snippets, glimpses behind the scenes of the making of the podcast, a real deep dive into every guest, plus a place to connect with other wiser than me listeners. I hope you subscribe at wiser than me.substack.com and stick around to see what we have in store. We'll be right back. There's no denying it. Your hair changes as you age. and not always in the best ways. Hair that was once lush, smooth, and shiny

is now dry, frizzy, and flat. It's a fact of life. That's where K-18 hair comes in. It's not a hair care company. It's a hair science company. They couldn't find real lasting hair repair, so they invented it. Seriously, it's trademarked in everything.

Their patented K-18 peptide perfectly fits into the broken parts of your hair structure, making it strong and healthy again. This stuff works fast, too. The K-18 leave-in molecular hair mask reverses damage in four minutes by working deep within your hair's innermost layers. Whatever you've put your hair through, heat, color, chemicals, this mask delivers immediate

and lasting results. They've got everything you need. Shampoo, conditioner, volume spray, hair oil, even adorable minis for when you're at the gym or on the go. It's molecular, it's science-driven, and it's delivering soft, strong, bouncy hair for everyone who tries it. Seriously, you'll flip for hair that feels like new. Shop K-18 mask at Sephora or get 10% off your first order at k18hair.com with code wiser. That's K-18hair.com And use the code wiser. The women on this show are extraordinary. They're funny, complicated, resilient. They've lived whole lives, and so much of that wisdom lives in their

stories, which is why it's so important to preserve those stories while we still can. For Mother's Day, there's something that feels very aligned with this show. It's called Rimento, like Remember and Memento jammed into one word. And no, it's not one of those old, Here Mom, fill out this book things that never get done. Remento is a different way to create a book of her stories, with Rimento, your mom doesn't write anything. She just talks. Every week, she gets invited to answer a new question. She clicks a link. She tells a story. And then Rimento turns her voice into a beautifully written book. Inside the final book are QR codes you can scan to play the recording used to write that story. So years from now, when you really want to hear her voice, you can. Your kids can scan

a page and hear her laugh, see her smile, and watch her tell the stories about memories, moments, and photos that only she can. Wiser than me proves that older women are not done. They are not fading out. They are full of stories we need to hear. And it turns out those stories might be closer to home than you might think. So this Mother's Day, don't give your mom something that waltz or a book she'll never fill out. Give a mom in your life a microphone and the space to be heard. To save $15 on your $99 purchase of Ramento, head to ramento.com and use code wiser at checkout. Rimento, so you can preserve your mom's wisdom for generations to come. Food waste shouldn't exist.

There is no reason that our leftovers should end up in a landfill, but that's the final destination for about a third of the food we grow. Our ancestors would be confused. They use their food scraps as compost, or as animals. animal feed or in weird soups, all the stuff we did before garbage was invented. But composting is hard work. Living with a bucket of rotten food on your counter is gross. Most food goes in the trash because it's easy, and these days we'll take any easy we can get. But now there's something easier. Drop your scraps in a mill food recycler.

It looks like a kitchen bin and an iPhone had a baby. It takes nearly anything, even meat and bones. It works automatically. You can keep filling it for weeks, and it never smells. When you finally empty it, you've got these nutrient-rich grounds. Use them in your garden, pour them in your green bin, or have mill get them to a small farm, so the food you don't eat can help grow the food you do, just like it should be. It's why I own a mill, why I invest in mill, and why I'm still obsessed.

with my mill. If you want to get obsessed to go to mill.com slash wiser to get $75 off. That's mill.com slash wiser for $75 off. There is a very specific feeling when you put on a great pair of jeans. Like, ah, there you are. It's not just fit. It's the weight of the fabric, the way it moves, whether it holds its shape or kind of just gives up by noon. Good denim has a little attitude to it. And when the price makes you do a double take, you send it to everyone you know. That's got quince written all over it. They have premium materials across the board, ultra-soft denim, 100% European linen, organic cotton, pieces that feel as good as they look, starting at just $30. Something you may not know about quince is that everything is priced 50 to 80% less than

similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. You're paying for quality and craftsmanship, not a markup. Good denim is an anchor, build around it, and suddenly getting dressed becomes simple instead of stressful. That's been the whole approach lately, leaning into pieces that feel effortless and comfortable, but still look considered. Quince has been the go-to for exactly that, elevated fabrics, flattering fits, clothes that do their job really well. Refresh your every day with luxury you'll actually use. Head to quince.com slash wiser for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash wiser for free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com

slash wiser. Hey, Prime members. Did you know you can listen to Wiser than me ad-free on Amazon music? Download the Amazon music app today to start listening ad-free. I don't know how much of this shit is real that I read about, you know, when I'm trying to have these conversations with folks. But I saw that you were an admirer of Phyllis Diller. When I was in middle school, I saw her on TV and I just thought, I've never seen anybody act like that before and dressed like that and her laugh. And I just thought she looks like she's absolutely having a ball. Totally. And oh my God.

And I thought, this is just, this woman's my idol. And I even went to a costume party dressed as her. I'd kill for a picture. But, you know, back then nobody had cell phones. But, you know, it's funny because then when I read that, I thought, I got to go back and watch some clips of Phyllis Diller. It's quite remarkable what she did when she did it, you know, because nobody was, I mean, women weren't. I think you can count on probably two or three fingers. the female comedians at the time, or maybe even just two. And it's so interesting to me what her

material was, which was so self-deprecating, and it was so... And putting her husband down all the time. All the time. And the way she presents herself, I mean, she presented herself so oddly with the hair and those eyebrows that went up. Yes, and the cigarette holder. The cigarette and those crazy outfits. I mean, but, you know, if you look at it. carefully. She is not an unattractive woman. No, and great legs. Great legs. But she found what I guess she thought was her avenue, an way in. Yeah. Because it was, it's fun to maybe go back and look at, there was, she was on, oh, Christ, what's the name? The Groucho Marx show, you bet your life. And she made an appearance on it. And she's fairly demure, but also not.

But it's interesting to watch that, knowing what we know today, through today's lens, watch how he asks her questions about, you know, leaving the house and going out and making jokes. He thinks it's kind of an outrage. He's polite, but it's quite clear that he's judging. Groucho? Yeah. Really? Yeah, I thought it was pretty interesting. Anyway. Wow.

Yeah. And apparently she was very artistic as well. She did a lot of art. In fact, she would have parties and sell her art to her guests. You can go on eBay and see some of her stuff. Really? Yeah, she was not untalented. Like a painter type of thing?

Yeah, drawings and, yeah, she was good. You did a lot of theater in, oh, wait a minute, we need to talk about something. Can you talk about what the Seafar Queen competition was? Oh, my. Please. It sounds too good to pass up. I think there's a story there. I'm feeling like there might be a story here. Seafar is a yearly thing in Seattle where they have, it's a big boating thing, and they have the Navy pilots that go overhead, and they have all sorts of things going on, and they have hydroplane races on Lake Washington, and it's a big thing every summer. Is it still going on to this day? Oh, yeah. Oh, I see.

Oh, yeah, yeah. And they have a Seafar Queen, but they had me do, for some Rotary Club or something, I don't know, which is the Lions Club or something, they had me come out as like a crazy fake Seafar Queen, and they had me dressed. And I was Miss Polkatt Inlet. And they had me dressed, all a Phyllis Diller, kind of, with the crazy hair, crazy clothes. And I barge in on one of their meetings and crack and jokes. and making fun of some of the guys. Was it, I can't believe you found that. I'm sorry about that.

Was that, was it like a beauty pageant that you were sort of making fun of or not really? You know what? I don't recall that that was what it was because I was actually Miss University District, you know. What does that mean? You know, it's like a little small thing as part of the, I think it might have been part of the seafar thing. I don't even remember. Oh, it's like a beauty page. kind of a thing? Yes. Yes. Yes. Miss University District.

Miss University what? District. Nice. It sounds sexy. It sounds very, very sexy. But anyway, so you were fooling around in Seattle. You were doing theater, and you were there for a while before you went to New York to pursue. Yeah. And you found a lot of success in New York, didn't you? It sounds like you did. Well, I never had, I hate saying this because actors hate me when I say this, but I never had to work a civilian job. I'm not saying it was thriving, but, you know, I was paying rent and feeding myself. Yeah, that's fantastic. So I was lucky I got work right away. Yeah, that is lucky. It's amazing. Can you talk about your

process? Like, you were talking about when a role is right for you, you can hear the character in your head. And can you sort of... found on that a little bit. I'm curious about that because I sort of have a similar experience, but I don't know if it's a character I hear, but to explain what you mean. I really hear the voice in my head, and I know if I don't right away, I'm going to have my work cut out for me. Like, for instance, when I auditioned for Fargo, for Noah Hawley, I mean, to me, I read that speech and I knew this woman like that. I knew exactly who she was. I knew how she was raised. I could hear the accent. It's always just a great feeling when that

happens. I don't know. I'm not explaining it very well, which is why I would be a terrible drama teacher. If someone asks me, well, it just seemed like a good idea at the time. I look at the mayor of East Town. I was pretty sure about what I wanted to do. I knew exactly how I wanted her to look. Yeah. I said, I want a wig that's kind of like June Allison's perennial hairdo, but not that neat. Yes. I agree with you when I'm reading a script and if all of a sudden you are familiar with this person whose dialogue you're reading, you feel like you're in their skin. Like you just know them intimately. That's always a big tell. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it really is. Speaking of like wigs and putting a character together, of course, we have both worked with Kathleen Felix Hager.

Yes. Love her. Love. So she does the wardrobe on hacks and she did it on VEP. I've worked with her a couple of times. Isn't she marvelous? Oh, she's just the sweetest person in the world. And she really helped, so talented. And she really helps create a character with you. Does she not? Oh, yeah. People don't realize how important that is. Yeah. We'll talk about how important that is. Well, I mean, I think people who aren't actors, if they think about the times that they dress out, for some event that they don't normally dress that way. And, you know, you did. Makes you feel different about yourself, you know? Right.

In the mirror and you go, there's a, well, that's a side of me. I don't get to show very often, you know. Exactly. And actors get to do that all the time, you know. But it's very important. And with hair and makeup, too. Yes. You know, obviously, I'm not telling you.

But I remember when I was doing Fargo, as we were getting ready and we were trying to figure out my hair and everything, I said, I said, she's got to have, she's very practical. she's got to have a short, permed, mousy brown hair ado. And I don't want to wig because I don't want to be conscious of it. I want to just be able to be comfortable. And, you know, and I said, you know, it's like, well, my mother went through a period where she would cut her hair short and get it permed. And she looked so much prettier when it was naturally straight.

And she just kind of pinned it up a little bit, you know. But she just didn't want to fuss with it. And that woman in Fargo was just such a practical person. Right. But I knew that that's what she had to be. but I remember I let the hairdresser cut my hair and make it really super curly and we put a drab, brown rinse in it. And I just remember, I looked in the mirror and I started to cry.

Of course you did. I would have cried too. Yeah, that's a nightmare. I said, but it's perfect. I said, there she is. There she is. I suddenly saw what I'd had in my head looking back at me from the mirror. Right.

So it, but it's interesting too, because what you say, like, you know, you dress up, you feel a certain way. and the same can be, I mean, it's not just about looking good, although we all want to look good, I think, all the time, but you don't look good all the time. I wore a wig on VEP, but I know what you mean when you say you didn't want to wear a wig on Fargo because you want to put your hands through your hair and just have it feel, because wearing a wig. Like it's not going to move. It's not going to move, but the lace doesn't have to pop up and all of that stuff. I mean, with that wig that I wore on, um, Veep was so critical and... I didn't know you wore a wig. It looked fabulous. Thank you. Yeah, it was a good wig. And it went through different... I had a couple of them because there was a period of time when Selena wanted to rebrand herself and she cut her hair super short. I looked like a teenage boy.

But it was super important and we used to refer to her as wiggy and she was, she was, she was, was a bitch and she would be off to, she would be on the counter and was in a foul mood until she got onto my head and then she felt like she was being respected. We have named all my wigs on hacks as well. Oh, you have? What are their names? Well, let's see. The main one, the first one is, oh, it was Camille.

She was the main one for, like the whole first season. Yes. And then we started naming them after girls on the crew, Sophie and Sammy. Do the girls on the crew know that? They found out. And can you talk about your observations from a comedic point of view when you're playing a stand-up comedian versus playing a comic role and how you married the two within the show? I mean, in other words, you have a different rhythm when you're out on stage doing your act versus in a scene. that's, you know, if assuming the scene is meant to be funny, that's funny.

Can you talk about that rhythm at all? Yeah, I've never done stand-up, but I've always loved watching stand-up. Right. I always loved, you know, Joan Rivers, especially her earlier stuff. Elaine Boosler, of course, Phyllis, Diller. And so the part of it's sort of a monkey-see-monkey-do kind of thing, but I knew that I couldn't copy one of them. It had to come from me or it wasn't really going to work.

It had to be my sense of humor. My biggest concern was that other real comics wouldn't buy me as a comic, but they seemed to have given me okay. Yeah, no, you are bought as a comic. No, there's no doubt about it. Thank you. It's probably the most relaxed you see, Deborah. Uh-huh.

Now that I think about it, and I haven't really thought about that, but I think she's, when I think about the scenes where I'm doing, I'm doing stand-up, she's so, she's so relaxed. And the rest of her life, she's a little bit tense, you know. Right. A little bit, ooh-hmm. Yeah. You know. Yeah. That's interesting to think of being relaxed on stage. Which to me, I mean, I mean, I've done a ton of stage and I love being on stage.

it's still nerve-wracking, but I love it. Yeah. But to be a stand-up comic, I can't even imagine anything scary. I can't either. I mean, if you're doing a play that's a comedy and you're not getting laughs, it's not painfully as painfully obvious as when you're a comedian and you're telling jokes right to the audience's faces and they're not laughing. It's one thing to have that fourth wall. You can just pretend they're not there, you know, and you keep going with the play.

Yeah, and also if you're in a play, I mean, assuming there are other actors, you're part of a team. Yeah. And, you know, they can bail you out. They can bail you out or sometimes you have a, you know, a bad game. Yeah. You know, exactly. Or you get an audience full of smilers.

You know, you'll be doing a comedy and you'll just going, they hate us. You know, you're getting any laughs. Right. And then all your friends come backstage. You go, oh, my God, was the funniest thing I've ever saying. I was going, why weren't you laughing? Right. Because there are some people that just smile.

Yeah. And especially sometimes you get an older audience, like a mad. Yeah. They're smiling their heads off and you think they hate your, you know, because they're not laughing out loud. It's time for another break. More with Gene Smart after this. You have a whole ritual right before bed, right? Fluff the pillow, white noise machine, no phone for 30 minutes before bed, maybe some magnesium, a little lavender essential oil, the weighted blanket, and the thermostat at exactly 68 degrees. And after that whole production, you lie down, stare at the ceiling, and do the math. Maybe you can get five hours? The ritual was supposed to make sleep easier to find, but somehow it made the whole thing feel like a job.

And the bad nights don't stay in the bedroom. They show up at the morning meeting, in the patience running thin by 4 p.m., in the feeling that everything is just a little harder than it needs to be. A sleep number mattress can actually change. softer when you need to sink in, firmer when your back starts talking, cooler when the nights get long and warm. And Sleep Number has introduced new mattress collections designed for personal comfort, technology that responds to the way you actually move through the night, not just when you set it, but all night long. Over 150,000 five-star reviews, rated America's best mattress brand for customer satisfaction by J.D. Power, 2025. Built to last 25 years through the pulled muscles and the pregnancies in every

phase of life when your body just needs something different than it did before. It might be the most important thing you weren't paying attention to. It's the Everything on Sale Memorial Day event from Sleep Number. Every bed and base is on sale now. J.D. Power ranks sleep number number one in customer satisfaction with mattresses purchased in store and online. For JD Power 2025 award information, visit jdpower.com slash awards. Learn more at sleepnumber.com or visit a sleep number store near you. This message comes from Harvard Business School Executive Education. Now is the time to invest in yourself and change the world with your voice. Their programs connect you with faculty at the forefront of their fields, introduce you to a global

network of leaders, and help you step into your full potential. The next chapter is yours. Let them help you write it. Apply today to accelerate your future. Learn more at HBS.combe slash accelerate. That's HBS.m.m.m. slash accelerate. So many women are in their protein era right now. Suddenly everyone is taking creatine and lifting things and reading labels like it's their job. Protein bars are taking over grocery aisles, but ingredients you've never heard of and a sore jaw from a cardboard-like protein bar? No, thank you. Aloha is different. It's taste that grows. Yes, literally, made with plant-based organic ingredients that actually grows somewhere, like outside. like in the ground, not engineered in a lab. No sketchy fillers, no hard on your gut surprises, just thoughtfully grown ingredients that feel as good as they taste. And the numbers make sense.

14 grams of protein, up to 10 grams of fiber, that's not the sexiest thing, but it's very important, and only 5 grams of sugar or fewer. Five, that's a civilized number. It's tasty, balanced protein that doesn't taste like punishment for once. So whether you're currently or eternally in your Era, just know there's a reasonable, delicious option out there waiting for you. Look for Aloha Protein bars at your local grocery store or at aloha.com. Aloha, Taste That Grows. You were on Designing Women for five seasons, and you actually met your husband doing that show, which is amazing. I did. Yes. On the fifth episode, before the show, the show hadn't even aired yet. Isn't that remarkable? And then it was a fact.

Asked Infurious Love Affairs, what it sounds like. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I remember we were doing our table read. And I remember I started to head upstairs where the room was where we were going to do the table read. And I saw him standing there talking to somebody. And he looked familiar. I had seen him in some stuff.

But I just, it was just something about that smile and those little smile lines. And I thought, oh, I hope he's here to be on our show. Oh, really? Oh, how nice. And so then I walked in, and there he was. He was sitting at the table. And I was the only one of the four of us gals who he had not either met or worked with before. Oh, wow.

In fact, he dated Delta briefly. Oh, wow. Yes. I was very kind of, well, he was very forward and cheeky. He was very funny. And I guess that helped let me be sort of forward too, I guess. And I invited him into my trailer a couple times to help me with crossword puzzles and stuff like that. Oh, crossword puzzle, in quotes.

And he, oh, that old chestnut. Yeah. And then he invited me to see a play he was doing. And, of course, I went like 17 times. Yes. But I remember I told him after a few days. And I said, you know, the only reason I'm being really nice to you, I said it is because every week, one of us is assigned to sort of take care of the guest star on the show. Oh, please.

And this is my week. Uh-huh. That's why I'm, you know, he didn't buy that at all. It's like when they have those foreign students who come in for a month in high school from another country and you're supposed to be their assigned friend. Yeah. Eat lunch with them. Exactly. So you ended up marrying him and you had up, you were pregnant on designing women.

You were pregnant. I was. Yes. I was indeed. And they wrote it into the show. They did. They married my character off just in time. Yes.

Because I remember the night that my character got married. is the night I found out I was pregnant. Oh, my God. I was sitting in my dressing room wearing this tight corset wedding dress. I'm smoking a cigarette, and I'm looking at myself in the mirror, I'm going, Jean, you are pregnant. You know you were pregnant. And I got the message from my doctor that night. I just put out the cigarette.

I said, that's it. No more of those. Oh, my gosh. So I was pregnant on Seinfeld. They wrote it into your thing. They didn't write it in for me. We covered it up. No, I mean, and I was, by the way, I got enormous. And so I just carried books and boxes and sat with magazines on my lap. Lots of coats. Lots of big oversized coats. Fortunately, that was the look back then. You know, that oversight. Oh, yeah. And which, by the way, is coming back, which I'm horrified by, this whole, this 90s thing, I think it's come back and I could just die. It's so awful looking, I think. But anyway, but the second time I was pregnant on the

the show. We didn't even bother to cover it up. And then when I was about four or five months pregnant, and, you know, just really starting to show, Jerry came up to me and he said, you know, we have this idea in the writer's room that maybe we'll write it in that Elaine is just getting fat. Yeah. Tell that to somebody who's four or five months pregnant. And I, I, I burst into tears. Oh, no. It's sort of like you looking at yourself in the, in the mirror as, as the character in Fargo. I mean, I was just done for.

Anyway, that, that idea didn't fly. Oh, God. But, yeah. But it's hard to have the. little babies and work at the same time. How did you manage the straddling of two universes? I mean, plenty of people do it, but... I think I think I was just so... First of all, I was terrified because I'm type 1 diabetic. That's right.

And I got pregnant in an unplanned way. My doctor almost stopped speaking to me because that's a big no-no if you're diabetic. And he just freaked out on me and started telling me that, you know, my baby was going to have heart problems and I was going to go blind and I was going to lose my kidneys. I was going to have kidney failure and I was going to go blind possibly. Was all of this really at risk for you? Was this all true? Apparently, you know, he had patients that had gone through them. And because my blood sugars were not in good control.

And, you know, sometimes it's weeks that go by before you find out you're pregnant. You think, oh, my God, what has happened to this poor kid in the time I didn't know I was pregnant? Oh, right, yeah. So he sent me to this gal up in Santa Barbara at the Sandsom Clinic where they specialize in type 1. diabetes research and specifically pregnancy. And I met this gal, this Dr. Richard and I drove up there, and we were both freaked out of our minds. And she said, she herself was type one diabetic. Oh. And she said, I think you should start over. That was her euphemism for terminated the pregnancy. And she was actually a fabulous, amazing person, but I think sometimes doctors need to be a little more.

Have a bedside manner? Well, in the sense that you can't just assume that that's okay with everybody. Uh-huh, right. It just was not something that I, I just, it's just not an option for me. And all I remember was that I don't remember leaving that room. My poor husband. All I remember is the next thing I knew, literally, I was pacing outside the clinic, screaming at the top of my lines. And my poor husband was in there making nice with the doctor. I guess she got the message pretty clearly that that was not a good idea. So what did you have to do to have a healthy pregnancy? What were you up against? What did you do? I had to become like the poster child for pregnant diabetics. And she became like my hero. She held my hand through that pregnancy.

I was on the phone with her every single solitary day. Really? I would read her my blood sugars. I would tell her what I ate, how long I exercised what my blood sugar was 20 minutes before I ate, what it was 20 minutes after I ate, you know, da-da-da-da-da. And then, of course, the baby would get a little bit bigger, and that would all go out the window, and you'd have to start over, I'd go with another plan of eating and exercising and shots, you know, how much insulin it would take when.

I'd have to get it at 4 o'clock every morning and take a shot. I was testing my, pricking my fingers 12 times a day and doing blood tests, because back then that's what you had to do. But just clarify something for me. You say baby getting bigger. In other words, when you are type 1 diabetic and you're pregnant, the baby can get too big, too quick? Is that what you're saying?

Well, that's one of the problems. But no, but just as the baby is naturally getting larger, your insulin needs go up. Oh, I see. So by the time I delivered, I was taking up insulin and I felt like to kill it. an elephant. So I'm just thinking, baby, please don't bail on me because this is not going to be good. Wow. Oh, I see. And they usually do take them a little bit early because they tend to be a little bit bigger. And was he? No, he was perfect. I think he was, his due date was November 1st. And we scheduled a C-section because of advanced maternal age, unquote. I was 38. Uh-huh. And we had a

on October 25th. But right before, like a week or two before that, my doctor, who was also a high-risk obstetrician, his name was Dr. Gergaly. Is that the cutest name for an obstetrician? Adorable. Adorable. It sounds like something out of Dr. Doolittle. It sounds like a Dr. Doolittle kind of name. Dr. Gurgly. Gurgly. And he said to me, he said nothing that we thought was going to happen with your pregnancy has happened. So if you want to go ahead and deliver, you can't. I mean, it's up to you. And I said, well, I think it's a little late in the game. I've been prepping for a C-section. Months now for a C-section. I've been taking classes. I said, you know, at this point, you can take him out my nose if you want. I mean, just get him out safely. And, you know,

I don't think I'm physically or mentally prepared right now. And so all of this is happening as you're working. You had to keep up this kind of regime. That's that's hard work. Good on you for being, you were probably in the best shape of your life doing this, I would think. Oh, I felt fantastic. Yeah. Once I got over that terror that everybody making me feel guilty and terrified, once I got over that and realized I could do it. Yeah. And bring my blood sugars down. Yeah. My blood sugar was lower than my husband's for the time I delivered. And now as you've gotten older, is it more of a challenge to maintain an even keel, as it were? I mean, I don't have an insulin pump, although my doctor keeps saying he wants me to try it.

And I'm going, oh, can't teach an old dog new tricks. But I did promise him I would try it. So one of these days I'll try it. But I do have a monitor on my arm, which a patch, which talks to my phone. So instead of having to prick my finger and put it in a little machine to see what my blood sugar is, is I can just look at my phone. Yeah. So that was a game changer.

An absolute game changer. I mean, I was doing a one-woman show in New York this summer. It was so funny because the stage manager and the assistant stage manager and the makeup and hair gal and my dresser, they all got very schooled in type one diabetes this summer. They had my phone propped up off stage in the wings because it has to be within like 25 or 30 feet of you to work. And so, I mean, lots of times you go off stage and you have to do a quick change. But these are like NASCAR pit stops. I mean, one person would go, okay, you're like your bunch of yours,

and they would have, they would have like my surroundings to anybody. I'd stick it in my stomach while someone else was pulling off my shirt and someone else was putting blood on my face. And then somebody else was, you know, holding a thing, a Gatorade Zero with a straw and it up to my mouth and they'd shut me back out on stage. Oh, my God. And I'd come off stage and you'd get, oh, well, you're a little high now, or you're a little low. So you better. And they'd put a Coke in front of me with a straw.

and it was hilarious. Wow. But it worked. Yeah, it worked. Incredible. And so then when you were 57, you adopted a baby? Yeah. I mean.

And do you remember, was there like a moment when you looked at each other, you and Richard and thought, okay, we're going to do this? Well, truth be told, we'd been talking about it for actually several years. And at one point, that he would always kind of go, oh, I don't know, I think we might be too old. And of course, by the time he finally said, yeah, let's do it. I said, yeah, well, now we are probably, you know. Right. And then we put it aside for a while because, you know, my dad got Alzheimer's and I just, you know, kind of put it on the back burner for a while. And then, of course, once we did all the paperwork, which was, I mean, indescribable amount of paperwork, it was like, I think like a five-year process from the time we actually started the paperwork until we got the baby.

And then in the interim, our older son had turned 18, so then he had to do all the paperwork for him. Oh, my God, because he was no longer a minor. Yeah, it was crazy. And half the time, they couldn't tell us even how to fill out some of the paperwork because some of it was so new. You had a son who just turned 18, and then you have a new baby. So it's almost like you're, I mean, you are a mother all over again, but it's like a different lifetime, right? Yeah, actually, my older son, by the time, we went. to China. He was 19. And it was so cute, though. He said to me, I think the night before we left,

he said, Mom, I'm going to tell you something. He goes, I got to be really honest. I'm more excited about the trip than I am the baby. I said, that's okay. That's okay. He's a traveler at heart. Yeah, of course, the minute he saw the baby, he was like, oh my God. Yeah. I didn't know he'd feel this way. This is amazing. But it was incredible to me, having had a lot. It was incredible to me, having had a biological child and having an adopted child that you don't feel any different. It's like when they put that baby in your arms, it's like, and you suddenly realize you're, you're the person that's going to protect and keep that baby alive. And that baby needs you so much. Yeah. That baby's not going to make it through a couple of days without you. You. Right.

You. Right. And it's just the feeling is just so, so overwhelming. I, I mean, I felt at that age, I felt like I could do anything. I was just, you know. Obviously, the fact that he lost his dad when he was 12 breaks my heart and makes me feel bad that he had older parents. Although, you know, some parents die at 50. Some parents live till they're 100, you know. Right, exactly. Yeah, that was devastating for all of us.

But to lose your dad at 12 is just so cruel. So cruel. So cruel. And it was unexpected. It wasn't like we had really any warning. Well, it's nothing to do with being, you know, I mean, irresponsible or anything like that. It just is the way life happened to unfold. And it was obviously a cruel turn. Let me ask you something that I would imagine the thing about that experience is that it was so unexpected that did you have a feeling? I've had. moments like this in my own life, which is why I'm asking, did you have a feeling like what's going to happen next? Were you obviously devastated to lose your husband of 30 plus years? Jeez. But was there a feeling like it was so out of the blue that you were sort of, does that make sense that question? Yes, yes, because I have always been a very, very optimistic person. and I feel lucky compared to most people.

But that kind of exploded that feeling, and I want to get that feeling back. Because then you realize terrible things can happen just like that. On a dime. And I don't want to go there. Did you say you want to get that feeling back? Is that what you just said? I want to get that optimistic feeling back. You have not gotten it back?

I'm starting to climb back a little bit. What helps? Besides just time going by, I guess watching my kids overcome all that and be happy and, you know. Thriving. That's probably what helps the most, yeah. I mean, my little one, he's just having the best time in this play. I can't wait to see him tonight. That's so exciting.

And he's playing this very, very. very funny role and he's having a blast. So, yeah, that things like that make me feel like, okay, it's, it's okay. And I guess what you were talking about earlier in the show, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, Are we all on a path that we're just meant to be on and that we just have to relax and accept that take the good with the bad and the bad with the good and try not to be frightened and worried all the time? I mean, of course, I was worried about my kids and my youngest one's taking driver's ed and it's just like, oh, yeah, right. The thought, the thought, you know. my first husband died in a car accident and so I'm a thing about car accidents you know

knuck wood oh I didn't know that before Richard oh I did not know that yeah we were very young but actually we were divorced but we were talking about getting back together oh I see shocking but um people would say to me oh you're so strong you're so strong and I go well I don't know Am I? I mean, is it strength if you don't have any choice? You just keep putting one foot in front of the other? Right. Because you're doing it for your kids. If it wasn't for my kids, I probably would have just, you know, for a while anyway. I would have just gone to bed and pulled the covers over my head. Well, yeah, because that's what I was so thinking about is that you lost your husband and you're going through the grief of that. But then you have the other grief that your children, that you have to hold their grief. and that's like a it's like a

kaleidoscope of different kinds of grief that you are having to wrap your arms around. So I would imagine that that was particularly difficult, but I can see how maybe watching them get through it is a

kind of comfort for you, I would think. Oh yeah. What I felt really guilty about was less than two years, years later, which is ghost by bird, you know, that's not that long. Yeah. I found out out of the blue that I had to have heart surgery. And I had to tell my kids. It was like, no, oh God, I don't have to tell my kids this. Oh my God. Oh. It was just, I thought, how could I have done this? How could I

done this? I didn't take good enough care of myself. What was the heart surgery? And are you fine? Yeah, I'm fine. It was a biggie. Oh, it was a biggie. A real biggie. Uh-huh. Yeah. But look what they can do now. I had a female surgeon. She hid the scar. Oh, that's so nice. I can't believe I just did that. Gene just showed me her decalte, which I will not share with anyone, but suffice it to say it's stunning and unmarked by any, anything. Because, I mean, I had a friend who had the exact same surgery, and he said, I looked like Frankenstein. Right. What the hell? But you got through it. That woman was the same.

But, you know, I didn't know until months later how much that had fathered and frightened, especially my youngest child. Yeah. Because he thought, fuck. Yeah. Now I'm going to lose my mom. But he didn't. He didn't. He didn't.

Well, you're clearly a survivor and a strong person, and you've monitored. And you've modeled that for them, and I think that probably speaks volume. Oh, you have, no doubt. I mean, I don't know you super well, but that's evident to me. And it speaks volumes. I think sometimes the modeling of behaviors is more powerful and more meaningful than the talking about behaviors. You know? Oh, oh, absolutely.

Yeah. Absolutely. It's time for one last quick break. We'll be right back with even more from Gene. Can you talk about what it's like to date now? Oi. Do you like it? Are you having fun?

Yes. No, I'm an extremely lovely man. And I'm very grateful. But going on a date, basically for the first time in, you know, 30 plus years, 35 years, is insanely demoralizing. I, I, I, I, how'd you meet him? How'd you meet him? I met him. Do you know Caroline Ray? No. The comic. Oh, yes. I do know her. I mean, I don't know her personally, but I know of her. Yes. She's hilarious. They're very old friends, and she had a party at her house. And that's, that's where I met. I met him on the dance floor on her patio. So he called me. We went out to dinner. And I was just a wreck, an absolute wreck. What? And I remember standing outside myself, watching myself. in this restaurant just going oh god you didn't just say that oh could you be more boring could you be less interest oh my god oh my god all night yeah and and he kind of gave me the friendly little side squeezes or leaving the restaurant and i'm telling him you know it's like first time i've been out with

so the first time since you know your last year husband went oh it's like you know and i'm thinking oh my god I have never felt older or more unattractive than I did in that moment. I went home thinking, I will never hear from this man again. It was just so depressing. Did you like him? Did you like him? I did. I did. He's very open. He's very. So then what happened? Well, I don't know. Then he started texting me.

So I was like, oh, wow. I didn't send him running 100 miles in the other direction. He's several years younger than me. Oh, that's nice. I mean, maybe. Well, it makes me paranoid. What are you paranoid about? Because, because you go, oh, great, the last woman he dated could be my daughter. No.

I mean, seriously, yeah. How young is he? He's 67. Oh, that's not that much younger. Almost eight years. That's all right. One of my very good friends married a guy nine years younger. Yeah?

Yeah. Good for her. Yeah. Good for her. Yeah. They're still married. It's all working. Okay.

Yeah. Well, you clearly like him. You're blushing. You like him. I do. I do. So, but you're not living together. No, no, no.

No, no. Okay. No, we're not. Got it. Because both of both my sons live with me. Oh, they both are there. Oh, nice. Yes.

Which has been great. Because Connor has, I mean, I don't know how I could have gotten through the last five years without Connor living with me. He's in the guest house out back. I don't see him that much, but he's there. Right. And that's been my saving grace. Oh, that's so nice. So then your younger son, Forrest, is he going to be graduating? Yes. Oh, wow. This year? Wait, this year? Yeah, he's going to college in September. I can't, I can't bear it. I'm going to die.

That's a big change. Not having him under my roof every night is going to be inconceivable. Go to school with him. Gene, just go to school with him. I'm getting an apartment nearby. Don't worry, don't worry. I won't bother you on the weekends. But, you know, just call you. Just call you a few times a day and make sure you're eaten. And Hacks is ending. Season 5 is the last one. Wow. So that's another big change. That's going to be bizarre. Because the only other show I've done that long was designing women. But it doesn't feel the same because, I think for a couple of reasons, because I was recently married and it just had a baby, basically, on the show.

Yes. I mean, into real life and on the show. Yes. But that was sort of where my mind was. Right. You know, when I left Designing Women. Yeah. And also, too, which you know fully well, is that doing a single camera show in terms of the crew is such a different experience than doing a.

Yeah. A sitcom or multi-camera. Because when a multi-camera show, you see the crew like a half a day a week, you know, maybe, the day you shoot. And so you get to know them if the show runs, obviously, for five years. But it's not the same feeling as when you're with people sometimes 14, 15 hours a day, every single day. And our crew comes back every season with the same people coming back. Right, for months on end. It's just been amazing.

And you do become very bonded with the whole group. Yeah, you do. And if you go on location, which I know you guys went to Singapore or something at one point on your show. Yeah. And we were on location on VEP. We were living in Baltimore for four years. Oh, that's right. Yeah.

So you become just corny as it sounds. You're kind of like a family. You glom on to each other. Even if you're not on location, you do it because you really are spending that much time together. It's a really different experience. It was very hard to say goodbye to when I, actually, every job I've ever had to leave. How many years did you do, seven? Seven seasons of VEP, yeah.

I was gutted leaving that. Yeah. Got it. Yeah. Oh, that was so. Yeah. It's amazing. But it's, you know, this business, the longer you're in it before it is a small world.

And I know I'll work with some of those people again, but it's. Yeah, it is. I do. And don't you find or do you find that the longer you're in it too, you realize, oh, it's just so precious. And when it works well, the gift of it working well is. Yeah. And you think, how come it's not always this way? It should always be this way. Yeah, it should. Oh. Well, anyway, what a delight to talk to you. Can I ask you a couple of very quick questions? And then I'll let you go. We've been talking forever, which I really appreciate. Blabbing away here. I know. Look at us. Go. You've got to go and get yourself ready for the big. opening. What's the show they're doing tonight? It's called The Prom. They've done it on Broadway. It's very funny. I was not familiar with it. It's very funny. It's about these three kind of washed up Broadway actors who are just a bunch of divas. And they decide they need to do, I don't know, for what a reason they can't remember. I haven't read the entire script. They need to do a good deed

or change their image or something. And they hear this story about this school in Indiana. the heart of the Midwest, where this girl is not being allowed to bring her girlfriend to the prom, and the school is going to cancel the prom, and it's all the big thing, and the whole community is fighting about it. So they show one of my son's entrances, because he plays this Broadway musical star. One of his entrances is there's a PTA meeting, and the parents are fighting and fighting about this, and some say, cancel the prom, this is ridiculous, this is horrible, and they're saying, come on, this is, grow up, open up your eyes. And one parent finally says,

why are you so afraid of homosexuals? My son comes barging in his, his, you know, sequin, whatever, he's going, where's the lesbian girl? So I can't wait. I can't wait. That's my baby. Oh, that's so good. Oh, that's so funny.

Exactly. Okay. So, Jean, is there something? thing you go back and tell yourself at 21. I guess I would say a lot of the things that you think are absolutes, are anything but, and your life is going to go through so many changes, so many stages, people are going to come into your life and leave your life for various reasons. there's a lot more gray area in life than maybe you think or realize. I mean, I married the first man I slept.

Oh. How'd that go? Things we didn't know about Gene Smart. No, he was my first love. I mean, it was just, you know, I met him when I was 20 and got married when I was 22. Yeah, I guess that would probably be the biggest thing. I like that. Is there something you go back and say yes?

too? Some professional opportunities I had that I think I was just scared, you know, to say yes, too. I was always the good girl. I'm doing this way too much. When she says this too much, she's doing the air quotes. Air quotes. I can, I'll put it in in the edit. She did another air quote.

Jean, air quote, smart. I was always the good girl growing up. Uh-huh. And I was the, even when I was little, I was one in the family who was the kind of middle child mentality of don't rock the boat. Everything's good. Do, do, do, do. And my mother said, even, she said, you and your sister, from the day you were born, you were such opposites. We were so much more alive when we got older. But she, she said, your sister came out of the womb with her dukes up. You know, like every bottle, every diaper was like, oh. yeah, oh yeah, you and who's army lady? Right, right.

And she said it was just, and she goes, then you showed up and you were just like, putty in my hands, just wanted to everyone to love you. And it's like, isn't that weird? Yes. I mean, babies do show up with personalities. Yes. That are kind of. And so I think I've always worried a little too much about people liking me. That's probably the thing that I would tell myself is don't worry so much about.

pleasing everybody because I've done that my whole life. Are you getting better at making that adjustment? I'm trying because, you know, as you get older, you realize one of the most valuable things you can do is just simply have that group of people in your life, whether they related to you or not, doesn't have to be a ton of people. It's going to be just a handful of people who really care about you and then you really care about them who wish you well, honestly wish you well, and you honestly wish them well, and worry about just pleasing them and don't worry about everybody else. You can't control what people think of you as much as you would like to. Yeah, it's true.

That's a hard one. That's a hard one. But to have that community that you're talking about, it's like a life preserver in the middle of an ocean. It really is. Is there something, although we're not that far apart in age, but is there something you would like me to know about aging? Um, oh, God. I think, I think every bit of your health that you feel good about, you know, just don't take it for granted. Don't take anything for granted, you know, because it really is the truest thing that was ever said in the English language was youth is wasted on the young. Boy, I'll say. Because you don't ever think you're going to have aches and pains.

You don't ever think you're going to have anything wrong with you. You feel like you, the future is just this long road ahead. You can't even remotely see the end of it. It's just all, everything's coming up. Everything's off in the future, off in the future, off in the future. Right. And then all of a sudden you go, oh, shit. hair. What the hell? Yeah, exactly. Or even, and even when I was like, if you look at pictures,

I don't know if you've had this experience, but I look at pictures of myself when I was younger, and I used to fret so much about this or that. And I look at myself, I'm like, oh, my God, I look fantastic. I know. You think I'd kill the look like that again. Kill. Kill. Yeah. And I'm sure in 10 years, I'll kill the look like I do now. Exactly. That's what you have to remember. That's the part that you have to remember. Yeah. Yeah. That's the part you have to remember. Jean, I love talking with you. Oh, you too. You're a dream boat.

Thank you. I hope we get to work together sometime in a substantial kind of way. Oh, I would love that. I would love it, too. It would be divine. All right. Well, I'll see you on the set. Deal, done.

Okay. Thank you, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Muh. Oh, well, I love to.

every minute of that conversation. Gosh. All right, let's get my mom on the phone. There's something Jean and I talked about that I'm just dying to discuss with her. Hi, Mommy. I love. I just had the honor of speaking to Jean Smart.

And she was utterly charming, chock full of stories. Oh. And I thought of you, Mom, because she grew up in Seattle. And they had beauty pageants. and she was Miss University District. And I, isn't that funny? Isn't that a great name? It's absolutely perfect.

Yes. And so you were a beauty queen at Duke. At Duke, yes. And what, how did that work, Mom, when you were beauty queen? Well, let's see. Well, we had them in high school, too. Oh. They also had beautiful baby contests and all kinds of the beauty was the thing.

In high school, you had a queen, and then you had four of us who were attendants. So at the football game, then she rode in a car around and was the beauty queen, and then the four of us were in another car behind her. As like members of her court, of her beauty court? And what was your obligation as member of the court? at Duke? What did you do? What was that about? You went to the beauty prom and you were up on the stage with the queen and then you were and then you danced and then you got a big picture of yourself in the yearbook.

Do you have that yearbook? No. No. Oh, I wish. Well, we're going to begin. I got to find that picture of you, Mommy. And it's funny because I was talking to Jean about that. talking about getting older and so on. How old is she, by the way? She's 74. But it was interesting to talk to her about beauty in regards to aging.

We were both saying, you know, we look at pictures of ourselves from, you know, 30 years ago or even longer. And you can't believe you looked like that. And what you were thinking about yourself at that time, which was you had no idea how great you looked, but you did, I mean, and we were... That's absolutely true. That is absolutely true. You had no... When I see young pictures of myself, I think, God, if I'd only known. I know, I have the same feeling.

But, Mom, you must have known that you were pretty if you were chosen to be beauty queen, or did you feel like an imposter? I felt like if this is a big deal, okay. I mean, I truly... I neutralized it, I think, and I don't know why I did that, maybe because I was too afraid to not. But I neutralized the experience. It was not a big deal experience for me.

We do need to, Mom, look up your beauty queen portraits in the yearbook. Wait, that has to be found. That really must be found. Well, then there are looks, and there are looks. And the fact of the matter is that, you know, you're inside. You're what? I mean, you're inside. I mean, we're inside of ourselves.

We live inside. We don't live in our faces. Right. But it's a shell, but it's a meaningful shell, too, you know. Yes, it's a meaningful shell. And I remember that with a couple of friends when I was like a sophomore, we were looking in the mirror. when we started her eyebrows. And I had a cousin who I adored Elaine, and she used to, when she was going for a date,

she would comb her eyebrows. And I just thought that was the most beautiful thing I'd ever seen. Somebody, I mean, combing, guys, they'd like she combed your eyebrows. Very glamorous for her to do that. Did she pluck her, did you pluck your eyebrows? Were people plucking eyebrows really thin then? No, not thin, but I plucked them so they were just. Just right.

Yeah, yeah. Uh-huh. Wow, that's so interesting. God, Mommy. Oh, boy, oh, boy, oh, boy. Well, so much for beauty. So much for beauty. There it goes.

Everybody's got their dollop. Yeah. Some more than others, I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. All right, my mommy. Well, love you. I love you, honey.

And so take care of yourself. Okay, you do the same. And take care of your beauty queen self. Every night. Wait, say it again. Come my eyebrows? Every night. Oh, yeah.

That's part of my ritual. I take my magnesium. I comb my eyebrows. I love you. I love you, Andy. Talk to you later. There's more wiser than me with Lemonada Premium. You can now listen to every episode,

ad-free, plus subscribers also get access to exclusive bonus interview excerpts from each guest. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts. Head to Lemonada. Premium.com to subscribe on any other app or listen, add free on Amazon music with your prime membership. That's Lemonata Premium.com. Make sure you're following Wiser Than Me on social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok at Wiser Than Me podcast. We're also on Substack at wiser than me.substack.com. Wiser than me is a production of Lemonada Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louie Dreyfus. The show is produced by Chrissy Pease and Oha Lopez.

Brad Hall is a consulting producer. Rachel Neal is consulting senior editor, and our SVP of weekly content and production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer, and me. The show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with engineering help from James Sparber, and our music was written by Henry Hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music.

music. Special thanks to Will Schlegel and of course my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser than me wherever you get your podcasts. And if there's an old lady in your life, listen up.