Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus - Julia Gets Wise with Pam Grier

Episode Date: May 13, 2026

This week, Julia sits down with 76-year-old trailblazing actress Pam Grier, Hollywood's first female action star. Pam opens up about the childhood injury that left her with a stutter, and how a giant draft horse healed her. She reflects on channeling her mother's quiet strength into the iconic titular character Coffy, gets candid about her Stage 4 cervical cancer diagnosis, and shares thoughts on the unexpected pleasures of aging you did not see coming. Plus, Julia tries to explain karaoke to her 92-year-old mom Judy.  Follow Wiser Than Me on Instagram and TikTok @wiserthanme and on Facebook at facebook.com/wiserthanmepodcast. Find us on Substack at wiserthanme.substack.com. Pre-order the latest book from Julia’s mom Judy Bowles here: https://finishinglinepress.com/product/they-spoke-of-the-river-by-judith-bowles/  Find out more about other shows on our network at @lemonadamedia on all social platforms. Joining Lemonada Premium is a great way to support our show and get bonus content. Subscribe today by hitting 'Subscribe' on Apple Podcasts or lemonadapremium.com for any other app. For exclusive discount codes and more information about our sponsors, visit https://lemonadamedia.com/sponsors/.  For additional resources, information, and a transcript of the episode, visit lemonadamedia.com.

So I got to play Contessa Valentina Allegra de Fontaine in the Marvel Comics universe. That name still makes me laugh. I first appear in the post-credits of Black Widow and then in Black Panther, Wakanda, forever, and then I'm the bad guy in Thunderbolts. And I have to say, the whole thing, it was just a blast. In the original Thunderbolts script, there's this scene where my character really beats the crap out of a guy and takes his walkie-talkie and screams, ceasefire, ceasefire.

And I told Jake Schreier, the director, that I wanted to do my own stunts for that scene. And he was like, sure, okay, great. And you have to understand, Marvel had this huge stunt facility in Atlanta. Like it was like a massive gymnasium. And when I walked in, Lewis Pullman was getting levitated on wires over here. And Florence Pugh was getting crushed by fake rocks over there and stuff. And I mean, it was just so Hollywood. It was so fabulous.

And my fight, which was maybe about 15 or 12 seconds long, turned out to be kind of complicated. And it was all choreographed to beats. like one, grab the gun, two, elbow to face, three, spin and kneel and four, leap up and scream, ceasefire, ceasefire. You know, it was like very choreographed and really broken down. And after a couple of hours of rehearsing, I was so drenched, and the stunt guys were drenched, and we routineed it and we rehearsed where the camera would be, and we altered this sequence, and we did all this choreography. And I have to say something, honestly, it was pretty goddamn good. It really was. And then Jake, he watched it, and he realized that the fight, which was all within a much bigger action sequence, would really slow down the build. So we went back and we recoreographed the whole thing. And it went from 15 seconds to maybe two seconds, you know, instead of like one, two, two. three, four, it just became one. So if you go back and you watch the movie, you'll see. It's like, bam, bam, it's over. And rather than a big, badass fight, it's like a flash of violence that builds the drama of a larger action scene, which is appropriate. It's also at night, too, so you can't even see it as much as you can actually feel it.

all of that choreography, all of that rehearsal, which took days, and in the end, it's just two seconds in a 126-minute movie. And when I saw the movie for the first time, I admit I was a little excited when that scene was coming up because it was my first on-screen, you know, proper fight. And then it came and it went so fast. I started to laugh. I mean, I was a little disappointed not to really kick some ass on screen, but, you know, man, you. you really have to admire action movie stars because that shit is not easy. I should say that later in the movie, Valentina does get a big action moment. There's this major fight scene where Sentry takes me by the neck and I fly quite literally

like 25 feet across the room and into a wall. Did I say I fly? No, I don't fly. My stunt person, Stephanie Bauer, flies, and it's fantastic. So I should say that you really have to admire the stars and the stunt people like Stephanie and our coordinator, Heidi Moneymaker. What they do truly is Hollywood Magic, no doubt about it. And that is why I'm so happy that the woman we get to talk to today did her own stunts on screen

and fought her own fights off the screen too. And she's still fighting. The legendary Pam Greer. I'm Julia Louis Dreyfus, and this is Wiser Than Me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. In 1973, decades before G.I.J.N. or Lara Croft, when women were simply not allowed to kick your ass in the movies,

Pamela Suzette Greer walked on to screens across America as coffee, blew a guy's head off with a double-barreled shotgun, and changed cinema forever. No exaggeration. Coffee knocked James Bond out of the number one spot at the box office, and Pam became the face of the black exploitation genre. She got a three-picture deal and became the first female action star in Hollywood history, not a sidekick, not a love interest, not window dressing, the huge. hero. As her star rose in movies like Foxy Brown and Sheba Baby, she also became a respected figure

in the women's movement. She was the first black woman on the cover of Ms. Magazine, the most important feminist publication in the country in 1975, and that same year, New York Magazine hailed her as the sex goddess of the 70s. That's a pretty neat trick. After she came out of the grind house, Quentin Tarantino couldn't resist making her Jackson. She's a Golden Globe nominee, a SAG nominee, an Emmy nominee, an NAACP Image Award winner for best actress in a play, big screen, small screen, stage. She has conquered all three. Offscreen, she is, by her own proud admission, a geek. She holds two honorary doctorates, one of them awarded for her work in organic gardening and farming. She's a New York Times best-selling author of her own. memoir, and get this, she's a legit cowgirl. Just last year, she launched Pam Greer's SoulFix, a free streaming channel, personally curated by her classic black cinema, black exploitation, soul and funk soundtracks, Sydney Poitier, Richard Pryor, a living, breathing archive of a culture.

She said, this belongs to everyone, and it's free. So yeah, she's still grinding. So, So please, welcome an activist, a farmer, an actor, an author, and a horse girl, a woman who is so much wiser than me. Pam Greer. Hi, Pam Greer. I'm so happy to see you. Oh, my. I did all that? Yeah, you did.

You did, woman. You are the coolest. You want to know, there's a lot of people, not a lot, but a few that have given me encouragement. in life. Oh, who? Stan Lee. Stan Lee, oh my God. He basically invented Marvel comics. He's a legend. Stanley, who wrote about Misty Knight and Amanda Waller. He based his characters on me. Okay, that is so cool. Yeah, I can see Pam Greer, an invisible woman. Oh my God, I love that. I've learned such great lessons from so many people. Gloria Steinem, between she and Shirley Chisholm, Barbara Jordan, Bella Abzog,

there was a group of women who were the thinkers for us as we saw our moms having secret parties of independence and liberation. Interesting. That's when it started. And Gloria being the vanguard of that, letting us know that it's okay to be free and you're going to love it when you have it. Yeah, to be free and to own it and to be out there with your true, honest self. All of it. All of it. It's so healthy. Isn't it, though? And it gives you such confidence. Yes, which is so important, of course. But I do want to back up for a second because I need to ask you some opening questions, if you don't mind. Are you comfortable if I ask your real age and what is it, please? I think, I think. I might be 77. year. I might be. I don't know, nor do I care. If I wake up breathing, I'm going to have a good day.

I mean, just by the amount of energy you have right now and the bubbling up zest you've got for life, I was going to ask you, how old do you feel? But you must feel very young. You seem very young to me. Do you feel young? Yes, I do. Because when you're young, you can have three, four, five orgasms in an hour. But when you get my age, you have one orgasm in the last three days. What are you talking about? Like, what are you doing down there to get a three-day orgasm? I need details. You don't have to do anything.

But when it happens, I just want to tell you, you just be prepared. It's going to be three whole days. But let me ask you something. I don't understand what you're talking about. In other words, have you figured out a way to orgasm that creates a three-day orgasm? Or you're just saying because of your age, there's something about it. I think it's my age. It's the age.

It's the age. Oh, my God. Maybe when you're 90, it'll be a whole week. If I could have had that when I was younger, I would have had a better life and better boyfriends, okay? Well, so you know what I was going to ask you? What's the best part about being your age? But I obviously know what the answer is. It's a three-day orgasm. Hey. I mean, that's clear. Hey, listen, are you in Santa Fe right now? Yes, ma'am. And you have like a ranch with horses and rescue horses and dogs and stuff like that? Is that right?

Oh, my God. Well, how did you get into rescuing animals? Well, my family's draft horse on their farm in Wyoming saved me, rescued me from trauma, serious trauma when I was five, six years old. That's right. That was a horse that was called big horse, right? Big horse. That's big horse. I want to hear, for our listeners, I think this is really interesting because really what you're talking about is a kind of, can we call it equine therapy? I think you can. Can you talk about what you were up against and exactly how the horse saved you? that's an amazing story, I think. Yes.

A little boy sitting behind me and my kindergarten class hit me in the head with a chair because I didn't pay attention to him. And I crack my skull, bleeding brain, you know, and I still stutter. I still have some, you know, some evidence of trauma. So you started stuttering after that incident? Yeah, absolutely. I had a different mental state. And my grandfather would take me to the farm in Wyoming to keep me away from urban, in hostility.

To heal, maybe. And which was a better life, a quiet life. He was, it was a beautiful life, ranching, farming animals, just the calmingness, the, you know, the things that would take away my, you know, it would take away the noise. It was the anxiety, the noise, the aggression of city, citiness. And if that makes any sense, there is a great difference. But then what happened with Big Horse? I'm so curious. Well, I think he's part Belgian and part Clydesdale,

but he was a big draft horse, like 1920 hands, you know, very tall. And I could walk underneath him. Wow. And he turned and looked at me with these big eyes. And I was mesmerized by him, his quietness. And I was just little puny, broken child. I mean, seriously. Mm-hmm.

And I'd never felt before. Everyone was distant. Kids go away. Outside, go play. You know. And he was welcoming. It was otherworldly is what it sounds like. With horses, the horses don't lie.

They're very honest people. They can smell, breathe honesty. And I have replicated my experiences with other people. Tell me. Many horses, if you ride them, no matter how wild they are, they'll do anything to keep you on their back. Oh, that's fascinating. And he started taking me around the family farm.

And every vibration, every step just went through my body, and I was, wow. And I'd seen people ride horses before, but I didn't know what it meant. I was too small, no connection, nothing yet. And he started trotting. But don't, don, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don. And that's just the, um, don't, don't. And that's just a walk. Now, when he started trotting, he was like,

dun-d-d-dun-d-dun-d-d-d-d-d-d-d. And I could feel the difference. Then he started cantering. Do-da-no. Do-no. Do-no. No. And I could see the trees get closer,

and the birds flying over me. I am being transformed. And after that happened, you started to become a different person. Is that right? The healing. Yeah. The connections.

Yeah. That symbiosis, that symbiotic, that thing, connection that we have with animals. Yeah, I mean, I totally believe in that powerful connection with animals. I completely get it. But you were also, you were very close with your grandfather, your daddy ray. And I know he was a gardener and his garden was his pride and joy. Can you talk about the values that your grandfather instilled in you? Oh, that, he said, Pammy, when a woman can do something, men will respect you.

Mm-hmm. He always told me that. Mm-hmm. They may not like it. They may fight it. They may not say thank you. I remember when I cut my step-d-ass grass, he was so upset with me. He didn't talk to me for six years.

And then finally he apologized and said, thank you because he was sick and he couldn't do it. And I did a better job. I cut his grass with some boots on it in an Armani suit, girl. Hey. Well, wait a minute. Why was he upset with you for country? his grass. I don't get that at all. Conservative men. You mean he felt emasculated? Absolutely. Jesus Christ. Because why? God's a man. God's a man. And we're men. So we're God. You pay attention. We settle. We do everything. If we can't work

anymore and you can't, I don't want you to do it. I don't want you to do better than me. I don't want the neighborhood see you do cut the lawn when that's what I do. Hey. But your daddy Ray really instilled in you a sense of ownership and getting it done. And independence. And independence. Yes. And he was prideful. I could get on the roof and put up tar paper. Oh, my God.

I got to tell you something. I could not get on the roof and put up tar paper or I couldn't get on the roof. I don't know how to get on the roof. I don't know. I mean, do we have a ladder? I don't even know if I have a ladder. But I'll tell you what I can do. I can make marmalade.

I can make jam. So I know how to do that. from my fruit. So that's something anyway, I guess. Hey, when you can make marmalade and fruit, grape, cherry and jam, jell and jill and jill, we learned so well how to preserve. And when you had an abundance of a crop, you'd share it with your neighbor and they would share theirs with you. Well, in Washington, D.C., where I grew up, we didn't have crops, but we did have a refrigerator, and I'd take stuff out of there, and I wouldn't give it away like your neighbors, but I would, I'd sell it. Like at a stand. God, I was a terrible child. But I honestly,

I really do love that sense of community that you grew up in. I mean, it really seems magical. Yes. And staying in your childhood, when you were 13, your parents got divorced and then your mom was the head of the household, right? Oh, yes. And she took in three more children, her sister's three children. So she took care of six kids as an emergency nurse. I mean, she must have been your, she was the role model, your role model. Yes. What did she model for you? There was this atmosphere of people not having health care and couldn't get into every hospital.

And it was just one of them, really, Denver General. And so every nurse and doctor that lived in the community would get a knock at the door, maybe late at night. someone had an accident, broken arm, fell injury, and my mom, doctors in the neighborhood opened their doors, and my mom did that. And Pam, we got somebody here. I need you to help me, you know, with some as bandages, and, you know, my mom's going to be boiling water and has macura comb and cotton and, you know, everything she brings from work home.

And she's rendering help to someone who's injured. Yes. Because they couldn't find, there's no emergency. There's no, you know, people to come and take them to a hospital, which one, you know. So we didn't have that. So the community and my mom, many nights, many nights were doing, helping citizens. And it didn't matter what color, what race who you were. You came in, bloodied, you'd be cleaned up and driven home.

And you might get a bucket of chicken and some potato salad to take with you. Let's take a quick break, more with Pam Greer, in just a moment. And by the way, we just launched a Wiser Than Me newsletter on Substack, where you can get behind-the-scenes details from my conversation with Pam and more. You can subscribe now at wiserthammea.substack.com. You're going to get photos, videos, letters from me. Think exclusive bonus snippets, glimpses behind the scenes of the making of the podcast, a real deep dive into every guest, plus a place to connect with other Wiser Than Me listeners.

I hope you subscribe at wiserthamme.com and stick around to see what we have in store. We'll be right back. There is a very specific feeling when you put on a great pair of jeans. Like, ah, there you are. It's not just fit. It's the weight of the fabric, the way it moves, whether it holds its shape or kind of just gives up by noon. Good denim has a little attitude to it.

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Hey, Prime members, did you know you can listen to Wiser Than Me, ad-free on Amazon music? Download the Amazon Music app today to start listening, ad-free. And Pam, when you were 19, you went to L.A. to go to school. right? To film school with my po' ass. To film school. Yeah. And you spent a lot of time on the UCLA campus, and there was a lot of, I mean, this is 1968. There were a lot of social movements happening around that time. What was that like for you as a young woman? Here you are, 19. Did you feel part of the social and political movements at that time? I did, and I said it's about time. Totally. How did you support yourself during that time? When you were first coming to L.A., did you – were you just, like, juggling a million jobs? What would you do? I only had five. I had five jobs. Sorry. Five. I would serve data machines at a radio station, so I learned how to do that. And then I worked as a receptionist at A.P., an American International Picture. Everybody needed a receptionist who was poor and had one skirt and one blouse. That was me.

And then at night, I played music at a sports club, a very elitist sport club. And weren't you also a backup singer for Bobby Womack? Well, I was. Well, please tell that story. And for our listeners, tell them who Bobby Womack is. Bobby Womack was one of the top R&B. He wrote for Sam Cooke. He was part of the Falcons.

He was a musician. He played guitar. He heard through somebody and I don't know who are probably relatives coming back and forth that I was a student and I could sing and my octaves and, you know, play gospel and jazz. and all this stuff. And he calls me and he says, okay, I need you to sing on this album.

And I did. It was a hit album, hit song. And he said, I have a friend who's singing at CBS Records on Sunset. Yes. And he says, so he's looking for some more backup singers. I go to this address on Sunset Boulevard. CBS Records drove to the gate and everything. And they wouldn't let me park my reggae chorus.

So they said, leave that out here and you come on in and sign in. you're going to be singing for Sly and the Family Stone. Oh, my God. No, I feel like Forrest Go. Now I look like I'm Forrest Goh. And so the guy says, have you sung with Wonderlove before? I went, oh, of course, yeah, sure. Stevie Wonder's backup singers.

Denise Williams, Sarita, right, Minnie Ripperted. I could go on and on. And here's these incredible singers sitting over there, like, And they're all trusted beautifully. It's like 1 a.m. And I like, and I said, well, it's ready. Slice ready for you to come in. He's got you some licks to you.

He wants you to do harmonies and like, okay. They get up, you know, because they're used to touring. They're used to, you know. And I'm like, okay. And I'm trying to be sophisticated like them and walk like them. I'm like, you know, and everything. And he goes in. And he could tell the bumpkin who fell off the turn of truck.

So he gives us the gym. We sing, hey, yay. And this jam, if they could find it, it was so funky. And in the corner is Buddy Miles on drums. It was like, okay, pinch me, slap me upside the head. And the elevator opens up at the end of the hallway. It's dark, you know, everything's dark in studios at nighttime. It's like the club that you sing in and everything.

And so the door is open, and there's three guys in it. And you just see the light from the top of the ceiling of the elevator. And in the middle is a guy with a black hat, and he's a black silhouette. But he walks by me to black hat. I could smell pachulio oil. That's what all the college kids were wearing. Yeah. And it was Jimmy Hendricks.

Get the fuck out. And a band of gypsies. He just started it with Buddy Miles, and Buddy called him to come over and slide. He came in the studio, and it must have been 100 people looking through the window. Can you imagine? Can you imagine?

No, I actually cannot. I cannot believe what you're saying. that is Forrest Gumpian for sure. I just can't get over it. And they start hugging, and he has a big fro and teeth and some chamois fringe, and Hendrix has on black and a contro belt, and he's like, and he hands a Jimmy a guitar, and they start jamming and waka, waka, waka, waka, waka, waka, waka, waka, waka, and buddy starts playing. And the funk is so thick in that room.

It is so thick in that. so thick in that room. It's like everyone's just staring. Yeah, staring. Your jaw must have been on the ground. Yeah. Yeah. You are one lucky woman. You know, you talk a lot about the women in your life, your mom, your aunties in your memoir, and your female friend, and you have this one incredible female friendship with Minnie Ripperton. I think you called her one of the fearless ladies of the fine arts, which is so nice. Oh, we could, we can shake a A tree. I'm telling you, we could shake a tree. And she had that. Even in her singing, La La La La La La La La La La. It's Angelic. But she's from Chicago. She's going to whoop your

ass on the way down. It's la la la, boom. La La La La. And we would sit and talk about, you know, the days that we had to fight back. And with her, whether it's friends, family, church, street, whatever. And she had a broad, broad, broad, broad, incredible sense of humor and passion. Clearly, she gave that to her daughter. I know you're in touch with, for our listeners who may not know, Minnie was Maya Rudolph's mom. And of course, Maya can sing beautifully in addition to being one of the funniest person. Hilarious. That little four-year-old, those little freckle, you know, is on that child. And she would, she would, she, she would, she She would laugh and we knew she's going to be in show business, some kind of way, because she was around music before she was born. What about your friendship with Minnie was, what did she provide for you?

Clothing and makeup. But what about, like, do you have a lot of female friendships now, Pam? Yes. You do. I do. From Lake Bell. I love Jennifer Bills when I did the L-word for six years. All the girls, I was the mama kit, and I would bring my horses up for therapy.

I would just continue to train my horses. I take them up to Canada. And she would say, most people travel with their dogs. Pam travels with their horses. And so they gave me the props. And I was training my horses, and I never let that go because that's my therapy as well, from then to now. I know. I can hear how much horses mean to you, and I love that you have that in your life.

Now, Pam, I have to talk to you about the movie Coffee because it is so iconic. I mean, that movie kicked James Bond off the top of the charts. That's just extraordinary. And I know you developed that character based on your mom. Did she know that you were doing that? I told her. I said, Mom, what made you most proud of you? She said, I could help people.

I bandaged people during the night. I could have probably, you know, an injury that came in in a week, maybe five or ten people. I risked my neck to help people. People were dropped on the back of their gate at their yard, and they would drag them in, and she'd sit them up in the kitchen and try to help people. Yeah. And we didn't call the police. We didn't call the detectives.

We didn't make a mess of it. She didn't say, hi, I did this. She kept it quieter by quiet, and everybody knew. If my mom could do it, she would be there for them. Well, your mother had a quiet strength. She was an empath. She was an unbelievable, empathetic person. But that's who you were playing.

That's who you played in coffee. And you risk your life. You don't know who's crazy that you let in your house. Yes. She went to school to be a nurse and taking care of her children and her sister's children and the family. Well, I mean, I would hope that your mom recognized how you recognized in her. that empathy, that powerful, quiet muscle that she was, and not only for her own family, but for the community,

because that's who you played. Can I tell you something? I got to tell you something. Tell me. There are sometimes my mom said, I can't do this anymore. She's a nurse, an ER nurse, from 3 to 11, you know, and trying to save every dime for my debutante, you know, my ball dress, anything that, you know, that I wanted. So what I wanted to see, and sometimes men don't like to see whim cry on film.

And that's the power and the strength of a woman is when I wanted to see whether it was my sister or a stranger. I wanted to see her try her best and fail and see what that. arc is like so that everyone can see, are you failing, but you tried. Maybe it wasn't their time. But, you know, and that's, I see that. Did your mom see coffee? Oh, yeah. And that's the first thing she said. How come you never showed me crying? You know, I can't save the world. And the film was obviously incredibly successful, but at the same time, it was debated in the country because the whole genre of black exploitation was really controversial. How do you look back on it now? Well, they said, oh my God, they're saying brown nipples, sexuality, oh my God.

But that was a sexual revolution as it was. But now I'm turning it into winning and not losing. Yes. And that's what they got. And women were, you know, they were heroin. They were like, yes, we can stand up to our men, you know, going through so much with the patriarchal society. You were so young when all this was happening. I'm wondering if at the time when it was being debated from a cultural point of view, did you feel centered about that or have you come to sort of a, you did?

You did. I'm glad you did. Gloria Steinem did. All the women that stood behind me. She's so awesome. Stead behind me saying, you put on makeup for you. Yeah. I mean, obviously, Gloria is such a formidable force, and she's really changed the way that we think of ourselves as women.

Yes. She was a guest on this show, too, by the way. And then afterwards, she actually invited me over and I got to be with her in her iconic living room. I love knowing that you and Gloria Steinem are pals. Right? Yeah. It's time for another break. My conversation with Pam Greer continues right after this.

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symptoms at all, but this eventually led to a diagnosis of stage four cervical cancer. My God. How did you get through that? And I'm asking this because I'm a cancer survivor myself. And it, you know, It requires a kind of strength that you don't necessarily know you have. So I'm curious what your experience was like. I run seven miles a day. I get aches and pools and strains. What is that? Did I miss that?

Did I overlook that pain? You know, I'm really healthy. I'm really healthy. How did I get cancer? I rode my bike to the gym, you know, in Los Angeles. I rode from a house to my jobs downtown. You can make yourself crazy trying to figure out how it happened. God knows.

I've done it. You do. You do. What happened? Did you get chemo? Did you get a hysterectomy? What happened? I got a partial hysterectomy. We kept the ovaries so I could have hormones. I would fly in from Colorado every week in my pajamas, see everybody at Cedars and go through all the treatment. Stephen Segal came. Tamar Hoff's, my Women in Film sponsor, she's. She's the mom of, she's in the Bengals. Susanna-Hoss. And Gregory Hines and people were coming.

I thought I was going to die. I thought they knew something that I didn't know. Oh, interesting. And I didn't want them to come and see me anymore. Because I felt they're not going to tell me. They don't want me to know I'm going to die or see it on their face. And you do see. When they come in and see you,

You can see everything they're seeing about you. Oh, I can totally relate, Pam. I so get it. Were you like studying their faces and did you actually ask them? What are you not telling me or anything like that? Nope. I was surprised that they came. Uh-huh.

Peter Douglas, who hired me for the Ray Bradbury film. Mm-hmm. I guess they saw me robust and fun. comedic and beautiful stuff during something wicked this way comes and then see me within 30 days in such a state in a room with such equipment. This is not a joke. And maybe she is dying. And this is it. So Peter came in. My mom was there. He came in with a blender, a bag of ice, and made margaritas. there's certain people that pull you back. Oh, yes, 100%.

I had those people, too, and I had my little, you know, cancer romp, as it were, and it was pretty wicked. But I have to say, there was a moment, actually, when a really close writer friend of mine, she'd gotten everybody these t-shirts that said, nevertheless, she persisted. Aw.

And we all put it on, yeah, and took a picture, all of us. I didn't get a T-shirt. I got margaritas in the room. Well, but I mean, the feeling was, the feeling was when you're in a, that's one thing that's really nice about the work that we do is the community of a project of, you know, be it a film or a TV show or whatever it is, that community is very felt, particularly in times of big fat trouble like you and I went through. And I think there's a lot of strength to be garnered from those moments, right? Yes. Now, before you were ill, or even while you're ill, when someone was experiencing what you were going through, did you go over and take care of them, bring them flowers, bring them food, bathe them, pick them up from their bed, and carry them from the bid to the tub. A hundred percent. And I reach out because it was very meaningful to me when I was sick, when I would talk to people who had gone through this, hearing from people who had gone through it was incredibly comforting to me because it meant like I could get to the other side of this and get on with my life, get this in the rear of view mirror. So when I have the opportunity, actually, frankly, I did it just this week talking to somebody I didn't know, but she is going through a breast cancer situation. And just to talk. to her and tell her what my experience was and how to get through it and what I did and here are

these doctors. And it was comforting, I know to her, but it's at the same time very comforting to me to give it, you know? I ain't giving up. Yeah. I'm still here. Are you sure? Are you sure? Yep. Yep. God damn it. I got this far. I'm going to do it. I'm doing it. You are the ever-ready bunny or whatever that thing is or the energizer bunny. You do not stop. Clearly. And while I have you here, Pam, I just have to say your Jackie Brown was sublime. Honestly, it was just out of this world. Oh, thank you. And I got to watch it again recently in getting ready to talk to you.

It's just such an incredible performance, and it was so – I don't even know where to begin. I saw it in an interview with the New York Times. you said that sometimes you thought that maybe Tarantino could have done better at interpreting the emotional qualities of women, which are totally different from men. I agree with that. Of course, they're different. Can you talk about that? What do you mean by that when you said that? Do you still feel that way? We rehearsed. If you want to work with him, you have to rehearse at least a couple of weeks. Everyone does. And a lot of people don't get to work with him because that's what he demands. He wants to see everything about you. So he can be the maestro, like a little less, a little less, a little bit. that's a little lot of shrill, you know, bottom, you know. And so he talked to me incessantly about my life, all the things. Your own personal life?

My own personal life, right? And he didn't know all of the cliffs that I had walked upon and stopped. And some maybe fell off. And he wanted to know how far he could take me in certain scenes emotionally. And so the scene with Robert Forrester is the scene. the first take as when I talked to him about aging, being an older woman, my husband left me. I was a fall person, and I have nothing left. This is the second time. I'm in this, you know, hole. I have nowhere to go. I'm making 16,000 a year with benefits. This is it. And I can't go to

jail. And then in the scene with Robert the next day, when Robert comes over, you know, to get his gun, I said, no, you can keep it. And we start sitting down having that intimate. conversation. Yeah, I love that scene, yeah. And I'm really, this is it. No one in jail, no one's listening to me. This is it. And I, how, and he's a Bill Bondsman. So he can tell whether you're lying or not. He can tell or something. And, and I just think, this is my last chance. And when I gave the first reading, the first line reading of it, the tears welled up in the bottom of and then started, not me, you know, just, you know how you're just still and the tears started coming out. And the crew, when he said, you know, cut, the crew was crying.

They applauded. Oh, well, when you get the crew going, you know that you have nailed it. No question. All men. Yeah, one take. The first one. Then he said, can you do it again? But don't.

cry, don't let the tears. I don't have control. But they thought it was great, and so did I. But I wanted him to have what he felt would be right for him. Yeah. And also, you know, it's funny because I'm remembering, wasn't it your mom who was talking about the, that, about crying? And I think that's what you said. And doctors don't want you to cry as a nurse. You can't cry. They don't want to see a nurse crying. They don't want, you know, there's certain things. and I don't know if it's a male doctor. Yeah, but that's an interesting thing to consider. It's like, why not?

I'm experiencing this maybe in a different way than you are, and that's okay, isn't it? Yeah. So we just did another one for him, and I didn't, the tears didn't, you know, go down. But when the men felt my confusion and pain and exhaustion, And it's just like, you know, I have cried over roadkill, you know, just like seeing a horse being hit or something. Yeah, you experience life differently. Yeah. But I'll tell you something.

You know, it's interesting, too, as you're talking about this, because, of course, the last scene in the movie is you driving and you're crying, by the way. Yes. And that is superb. Relief? Was it? I did it. I did it. I did it.

Because nothing was said, nothing was said between you and Robert Forster. Incredible. I do a movie, great movie every 25 years, and that's fine with me. And we're all the better for your great movies. Okay, so Pam, I'm going to end with a couple of quick rapid fire questions. Is there something that you would go back and tell yourself at 21? Oh, I was a real student. I was too serious.

when I went to the UCLA campus and the film students were loading a van and I walked over to them and asked them what they were doing they had cables, you know, and everything and I'm like asking what are they doing and I had a fro and I said, so, you know, and they said, oh, we're film students

who are about to make our short and stuff. And I said, yeah, I'm trying to get into film school here as well. And they go, why don't you join us? Come up for it. I said, yeah, I don't know if I'll get them. You know, I'm poor. I got to work.

I got to figure it out. And they were so nice. No, come on, meet us in Hollywood on the street. We're going to be like guerrilla filmmakers, you know. And so it was the first introduction to being crew. Not a female or male, but your crew. Sounds like the advice that you're giving yourself now you took back in the day.

I mean, you were serious, but then you were able to sort of. I was going to quit that I was that serious because I needed to either be a doctor or a nurse and a seizure. Something that would pay. Yeah. This is not tangible. this movie career thing. Understood. It didn't feel like it was going to pay out.

It's not. And there's no black women around and not a lot of women around, period. Totally. Is there something that you want people to know about aging, Pam, that they don't know? I think with aging people, it depends on because everyone is so not, they're not monolithic. Women are. People. Of course.

There come from religion that expect you to age. There's certain cultures that expect you to age. To expect you, there's expectations in your background, in your culture. And it depends on who you are as an individual. How you feel what you've conquered. And it's individual. No one can help you get well. You can have all the surgery in chemo, take out organs, you lose your breast.

You can do all that. And still feel not whole. So how do you feel whole? How do you feel, fill up that emotional well so that you're not impoverished emotional and you give up and your algorithm is negative? How do you do it? What's the answer? If I wake up breathing, I'm going to have a good day. I think you're talking about gratitude, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I have to tell you something about gratitude. I'm grateful to you. I'm grateful to have had this conversation with you. I admire you tremendously. Thank you so, so much for giving us all this time and all these great stories. Thank you. You're welcome.

Well, okay, that was a conversation. I won't soon forget. I need to talk to my mother now. Let's get her on the Zoom. Hi, Mommy. Hello. How are you? I'm good. I'm good, good, good. Mom, I just talked to the actress, Extraordinary Pam Greer. Oh, good heavens. Incredible. So what did she say?

Well, she said a lot. But one thing that I thought you would find particularly interesting was that, you know, she suffered a lot of trauma as a young girl. And she developed a stutter. And then she developed a relationship with a horse that was a young girl. named Big Horse. And it was through her work with this horse that her stutter went away and she began to heal, which I thought is like amazing. It's like, you know, you hear about equine therapy, but this was really it. And I know that you had a relationship with, can you tell the story of, wasn't it your uncle who and the horse and the saddle and all of the rest of it? Yeah, it was a sort of

wonderful and sort of like a stutter in that. Tell. Well, it was very hard for me to talk to my father because I always felt like I had to be perfect to talk to him, sort of. So I used to rehearse like talking to him, which was a horrible thing, I mean, for a child. Wait, how old are you? I was in the third grade. And when you say you would rehearse talking to him, what does that mean? What does that look like exactly?

I would practice sentences. and there was a sentence that I would say, how are you doing and how was your day? I mean, and I would put it very carefully together, but then when I would see him, I would forget everything. And so, so it was very hard for me to address him just naturally. But I had an uncle, my uncle Herbie, and Uncle Herbie was very approachable. So, I, um, I, I had gone with the Girl Scouts or with the Brownies, I had gone horseback riding and for the first time in the third grade. And I loved it. So I wrote to my uncle, Herbie, and I said to him, I want a pony.

And can you help me get it? He wrote to my father and he said a harness. And he said, Judy wants a pony. Here's a harness to go along with it. And so my father came at me and said, I understand you weren't a pony. I said, you said, well, here's the halter for it. And I remember I just thought I was going to faint from happiness. I just thought, it was like I put something in motion that worked.

It was so wonderful. And so I got a pony and her name was Betty and she was a Shetland pony. And she was just absolutely wonderful. I could I could ride her bareback. I could hop on her. She was not, she was teeny. riding horses, being on horses, getting out in nature, getting away from the home, getting out was wonderful for me.

What was it about a horse that sort of unlocked things for you? Well, first of all, you're big, you're taller, and you can get out into everything and have a sort of sense of glory. I know that sounds funny, but it was a sort of sense of glory being up on a horse. Yeah, I think Pam had the same experience, and she liked being out in nature, too. She's actually a real cowgirl. The other thing that Pam Greer is is that she's a musician and a singer, and she's saying back up for Bobby Wilmack and for Sly and the Family Stone. Oh, good evidence. Yeah, and she has a really good voice. Yeah, she's a really good voice. Now, I don't think that you would say you have a good voice. Would you agree with that? No, no, I can't carry a tune.

I literally cannot carry a tune. It's just too heavy for me. But isn't there some story that, or did I make this up, that you were told to mouth the words to something? And were you in a, it is true. In a choir of my church. Everybody in my high school was in the choir and I were born to be in the choir. And Mr. Riley, who was my friend Sue Riley's father, he was the choir master. So I came to the choir and I.

You had to sing a little bit by yourself. And so he said, just move your lips as if you're singing. It was nice of him to include you. I know, but he let me be there. And it was fine with me. So I just got very good at, you know, just I guess, is that what karaoke is? No. Do you actually sing with karaoke?

Yes. Karaoke is when they play the music and then the words come up on a screen. and then you can read the lyrics and sing along to the music. And then you do it on a microphone. So it's sort of it's kind of the, it's the inverse of karaoke. You were just, you were like, I don't know, you were like, you were doing anti-cariochi is what you were doing, I guess. When you, we used to do this all the time, we'd get records and we'd lip syncing, lip syncing. As if we were singing it.

I loved doing that. And I could make it look so real. Really? I'm going to put that to the test when I see you next. Yes. All right, Mom. Well, I love talking to you, and I'll talk to you again soon, and I hope you have a great day. You too, love you. Love you. Bye. There's more wiser than me with Lemonada Premium. You can now listen to every episode, ad-free, plus subscribers also get access to exclusive bonus interview excerpts from each

guest. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts. Head to Lemonada Premium.com to subscribe on any other app or listen, add free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. That's LemonadaPremium.com. Make sure you're following Wiser Than Me on social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok at Wiser Than Me. And we're on Facebook at Wiser Than Me podcast. We're also on Substack at wiser than me.com. Wiser than me is a production. of Lemonada Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. The show is produced by Chrissy Pease and Oha Lopez. Brad Hall is a consulting producer. Rachel Neal is consulting senior editor, and our SVP of weekly content and production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer, and me.

The show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with engineering help from James Sparber, and our music was written by, Henry Hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlegel and, of course, my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser Than Me wherever you get your podcasts. And if there's an old lady in your life, listen up.