Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus - Julia Gets Wise with Rhea Perlman

Episode Date: May 30, 2023

This week on Wiser Than Me, Julia spends time with 75-year-old actress Rhea Perlman, who recently became a grandmother for the first time. Julia and Rhea trade stories of being pregnant on set and reminisce about working together 40 years ago on Saturday Night Live. Then, Julia tells her mom Judith that Rhea has read a lot of Buddhist monk Thich Nhat Hanh’s work, which inexplicably prompts a laugh-out-loud funny story from Judith.   Follow Julia on Instagram and Twitter @officialjld. Keep up with Rhea Perlman @RheaPerlman on Twitter and @perlmonster on Instagram. You can find out more about our show @lemonadamedia on all social platforms.   Joining Lemonada Premium is a great way to support our show and get bonus content. Subscribe today at bit.ly/lemonadapremium.    Wiser Than Me is brought to you by Hairstory. Use code WISER at checkout for 20% off your purchase, and Hairstory will donate 10% of proceeds from this code to water preservation efforts.     Wiser Than Me is brought to you by Evereve. Check out Evereve’s latest curated styles and get 20% off your first online order when you use code WISER.    Apple Books has teamed up with Lemonada Media for an audiobook club. The May pick, Monsters: A Fan's Dilemma by Claire Dederer, is a highly topical and blisteringly smart examination of whether we can separate artists from their art, asking: what are the responsibilities that come with being a fan? For more details, visit http://apple.co/lemonadabookclub.    Click this link for a list of all Wiser Than Me sponsors and discount codes: https://lemonadamedia.com/sponsors/.    For additional resources, information, and a transcript of the episode, visit lemonadamedia.com.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemona. So I spent a lot of my childhood in Washington, DC, our nation's capital. In a neighborhood that was filled with all of these amazingly creative kids, like I'm not kidding for real creative. For example, one of them was Margaret Edson, who went on to win a Pulitzer Prize for the play WIT. Yes, I shit you not. We played all kinds of make-believe games all of the time on our street, and by the time I was 9 or 10, I'd already decided to be an actress. It was around that time that we kids started a proper theater company. I mean, you know, we thought it was a proper theater company.

We called it the University Players. We liked that name because it conveyed a certain gravitas upon our group of six or seven elementary school performers with absolutely no experience of any kind. One of the first shows in our extensive repertoire was a production of Sorry Wrong Number, which was a super scary murder thriller. Okay, we charged our parents a dollar to come down to their own basement to see the premier

performance, and I got to tell you, it was a magnificent show. I played Mrs. Stevenson, the lead role that was originated by Barbara Stanwick in the movie for you film buffs out there, and I believe that in every way I outshown Ms. Stanwick, at least that's how I remember it. So opening night, which was also closing night, the show was going great until my five-year-old neighbor, Michael, who was playing one of the exceptionally scary murderers, he messed up a line. And as an actress, of course, I was completely professional.

I held it together. But as a producer of this production, I was livid. I was absolutely furious. Still, other than Michael's massive fuck up, it was perfection. We were very dedicated Thespians and I just, I loved it so much. So much that I really never stopped performing back then, you know, performance was just an element of our playing. Everything was make believe.

We lived across the street from American University in DC, and so our little pack of nine intenuers used to wander the campus pretending to be college kids. We would really get lost in pretending to be sophisticated co-eds. I would wear my, I had this suede vest with fringe, which I thought was totally collegiate, it was, by the way, and which I wish I still had. I just, I adore fringe. I always will. I never will stop adoring fringe. It's just, it's timeless. We go to the student center, we drink hot chocolate, pretending it was coffee, because that's what college students drink, obviously, and we would lean on walls on walls you know how college students always lean on

something and we would throw our heads back pretending to laugh at really college-y jokes you know so thrilling. I've always loved to pretend to be somebody else especially somebody older it was a route to a kind of control over my life that I really didn't have yet and that I really, really wanted. We started other performance companies on that street too, by the way, including a modern dance troupe called Julia and the Umbrella people, in which Michael redeemed himself. You'll be happy to hear. He was truly a wonderful dancer.

Tragically, there's no video of any of this, but I remember all of it vividly. I remember the absolute transporting joy of imaginary play. I remember the singular focus of these performances, and here's the thing. I get almost exactly the same feeling when I work now. Almost exactly. It's weird, except it's not weird. And so today I am thrilled to be speaking to another professional make-believer actress Rhea Perlman.

Hi, I'm Julie Louie Dreyfus and this is Wiser than me, a podcast where I get schooled by women who are Wiser than me. I love my family and my friends. I like my exercise. I like to shop a little. But the truth is, I really love to work. I do, I just love it. So I am totally psyched to hang out with our guests today because she just works and works and works.

Over 50 years, she's a mass like 117 credits. Okay, do you know how much work 117 credits is? Do you know how long 50 years is? She did what, like a thousand seasons of cheers alone. That's probably as funny a show, joke to joke to joke as anything ever broadcast. Also, I thought a lot of people watch the Seinfeld finale with 76 million people, but guess what?

Jokes on me, cause 93 million freaking people watched the cheers finale. I mean, that's almost 40% of the U.S. population at the time and that was just a start. She's still working. She's in the Mindy project. She made the Matilda movie.

She's in the Barbie movie. That Greta Ger Matilda movie. She's in the Barbie movie. That Greta Gerwig is doing, which looks like tons of fun. And she made an Netflix movie this year that I'm in too. And somehow, she balances all of that excellent work with three grown-up kids and one grown-up marriage or not and other real shit like writing books. And she can honestly say, I'm from Coney Island. I wish I could say that. I am profoundly excited to welcome a phenomenal

actress, mother, author, and someone who is most definitely wise in the me, Rhea Perlman. How about that? Thank you, Julia. That was quite the intro. Really, really. It was quite the intro to forever. Yeah.

You know what I was gonna call this show? Tell me. Old broads in the business. Yeah. You know what I was going to call this show? Tell me. Old broads in the business. It's how I feel. Okay, it's fine. All right, fine. I love that. Speaking of which, are you comfortable saying your age? Sure. So it's all over the place. How old are you? I am 75. Fantastic. Congratulations. And how old do you feel? 75. Well, when I have to do something technical like this. Yes.

Zoom like this. I feel 75. But in general, I feel maybe 40. Yeah. What do you think is the best part about being 75? Oh, jeez. I know. Is there anything? There's got to be something that's, well, actually, I have a feeling I know what it might be. Yeah. Well, the best part is that my children have grown and that one of them had a grandchild. So I, that didn't happen before I was 75.

It just happened seven weeks ago. It's amazing, it's amazing. I mean, everybody said, you'll change your life when you have a grandchild. And it does. It does? Can you describe how it does? I'm dying to hear.

There's a certain love. I mean, I felt it when my own children were born. Of course. The kind of love I had never felt before for anything, and I had felt love, you know, for my husband, for my other people and my family, for a boyfriend, here and there, whatever. But this is, it was a profound kind of feeling. And there it is again, you know. It's just, they can do no wrong. It's like looking at a new human being, a new human being.

It's so amazing that people create other people. It's just mind-boggling, isn't it? It's mind-boggling. What's your granddaughter's name? Sinclair. Oh, what a fabulous name. Sinclair Lucio De Vito. They kept the name De Vito, even though she's married.

And her husband's name is not De Vito, but that's what they chose. That's a beautiful name. Yeah, it is. Are you spending a lot of time with her? I am spending a considerable amount of time trying to like not get in their face every day, but we live pretty close together. I live in the east side of LA and so today and so it's in easy, you know, 10 minute drive. Right. And what do they cut? What do you want to be called now the your grandmother?

Grandma Revy. Oh, what is Revy? That's very good. I call my grandmother Grandma Dede. Oh, yeah. Grandma Dede and by the way, her name was Grace. My grandmother's name was Grace.

Really? Yeah. I love the name Grace. Yeah. In fact, if we had had a daughter, we would have named her Grace. I think it's a beautiful name. And what do you think, do you have, what is like, if you can say at this point, because you're seven weeks in, but to be into being a grandma, but what do you think is the most

important advice you could give your children about being a parent? Yeah, no. being a parent. Well, I would say be there for them for any situation that they need you for. Be there for them when you want to be, but don't overwhelm them. And you know, there's no room for impatience. I mean, you have to have impatience. Sometimes you're going to be impatient, but I mean, you have to have impatient. Sometimes you're going to be impatient, but they have a night nurse, which is a good thing. And I wish I had had one. A night nurse is a game changer because if you can get more than five hours of sleep in a row. Yeah.

Well, that is just incredibly exciting because I remember when we were on, when we made you people, and I was asking you about your family, and you said to me, and you told me that you had three kids, and you said, but I'm not a grandmother yet. And now here we are in your grandmother. It's so fantastic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's beautiful.

I love it. I know that we work together and you people, but do you know that we worked together 40 years ago? And that I had for,, we did because you and Danny Hosted SNL and I was in the cast. It was my first season on the show way. Yes way. Yes. Oh my god You know, I had such I was so terrified doing that show you were never rewatched it Because oh my god, I, I, in general,

I don't like watching my stuff on after I've done it. But after a while, I am okay with it. You know, now of course, cheers up. And so it's I watch them, you know. Right. But that particular, I didn't really understand the workings of the whole thing. And it's so fast.

Yeah, it's like being in a rocket ship and it just is soaring through the week. Yeah. So we've been working together a long time now, Rhea. Yes, we have. Yes. Let's continue on. Yes. When you were a kid, did you want to be an actor?

Not when I was little. No. When did you get bit? I got bit sometime at the end of junior high school. I guess you'd call it middle school now. I was always very, very shy, right? Didn't say much. And except with my friends, I knew I could be a total goofball with my friends. But there was a talent show and I decided to do a Ricky Ricardo impression playing the bongo and singing Bob a Lou in front of an entire assembly of people's huge school. And I did that. And people like when crazy, they thought it was hysterical. And so that was my bug.

That was the bug. I love that you made the choice of doing Ricky Riccardo and not Lucy Riccardo. That is so fabulous. That is such a good choice. I do anything to be able to see you do that back in the day. That's incredible. I'd kind of wish I could see it myself.

We'll get more wisdom from Rhea Pearlman after this break. Stay tuned. [♪ Music playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background If you've been listening to this show, you know that we cannot say enough nice things about hair story. They are here to revamp hair care on the whole, which includes its effect on the planet. Hair stories are brand that's both luxurious and eco-conscious. They know that traditional shampoo can both damage your hair and the environment with all those discarded plastic bottles, 500 million a year to be exact. That's why hair story created New Wash, a revolutionary product that cleans, conditions, detangles,

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And now Apple Books is teamed up with Lemonade Media for an audiobook club. Every month, a thought-provoking audiobook and its author are featured. The June pick is Honey Baby Mine, a mother and daughter talk life, death, love, and banana pudding. By actress and activist Laura Dern and her mother, legendary actress, Diane Ladd. It's the kind of story you won't want to put down, and with Apple Books, you'll be able to enjoy it on the go, wherever you are. For more details visit apple.co-forward-slash-lemonautobookclub. That's apple.co-forward-slash-lemonautobookclub and listen to honey baby mine today on Apple Books. Hi there listeners just a quick note before we get back to the show. I want to tell you real quick about my new movie called You Hurt My Feelings.

It's a little comedy about the little white lies we tell to the people we love the most. I play a writer who discovers that her long time adoring husband who said he loved her latest book actually hates her latest book. Can you imagine that mind fuck? It was so superb to work again with Nicole Hall of Center who is the writer and director. The entire cast is truly unbelievable. I'm so proud of the damn thing. You hurt my feelings. It's out now in theaters everywhere. I hope you go check it out. All right, you grew up in Brooklyn and Coney Island and that feels

completely magical to me, you know, with the ocean, the boardwalk and the fireworks Tuesday. Every Tuesday. Every Tuesday in the summer. Oh, wow. Yeah, just lay a, you know, blanket on the beach and you lay there and look up. I know you said in the past that your grandparents only sent the boys of the family to school, right? And not the girls to college? Yes. Is that correct? Yes. Did that mindset that your grandparents had to that permeate into your life through your

mom? Yes. It did. My mom really resented the fact that she never got the opportunities that her brother did. She had a sister as well, but her sister didn't want the same things as she did. My mom was very smart. She read a lot and she was just, you know, she was good in school and she really would have benefited

by continuing her education. Yeah, she was right to resent it. Yes, she was a bit of a feminist in that way and she also, you know, as my sister said the other day, she said, you remember mom, she told, I know she told me, I don't know if she told you, but I could do anything I wanted in my life. And I don't remember hearing that specific sentence from her, but yeah, I do feel like she felt that way. That a woman should have the same opportunities as men bar none. But that's good. She had that point of view because even if she didn't say it directly to you, it sounds

like it permeated out of her and into you to a certain extent. Yeah, I think so. What was your relationship like with your mother? It was complicated. It didn't look as complicated as it was because I didn't fight with her. My mother can be very contentious and she doesn't give much, you as far as her point of view and it was difficult for my children say as to have her as a grandmother sometimes sometimes because if she said here let me

teach you knitting I'm very good at this let me teach you and if one of them said no I don't want to it said oh sure go be stupid she'd say oh Dear, you know not great not great. No not great. So she took everything Personally, she was very defensive So I doesn't sound like you're gonna be modeling that behavior that your mother taught you as a grandmother to your granddaughter Sinclair, no, I don't see I don't see you saying, okay, yeah, go, be stupid. Now, I didn't even get the feeling that she recognized when she said it, that she shouldn't have said that. You know, right. Okay, well, here's a parenting question, a couple of parenting questions. So you had all three of your children when you were making cheers, right?

Yes. And I had my two children when I was making signposts. Wow, we have a lot in common. We have a lot in common. And I know they wrote your pregnancy into the show. Yes. And shall we say exaggerated the pregnancy's. Yes.

Right, which is a clever idea. And with me, we didn't write it in. I just carried boxes and stood behind couches and things like that. But for me, it was a monster juggling act as a new mother to do a show and have these babies. What was your experience? Yeah. Well, the funny part in the beginning was that Carla, the character, I'd say, started out

before I was pregnant with four children. Right. And then I got pregnant and they was like, oh, that's great. You know, that'll fit right into the character. And they found a way to get me pregnant in the show. Right. And then two years later, I was pregnant again. And they went, oh, really? You know, and the third time they just gave up and Carla had twins.

I didn't have twins, but Carla, so I ended up with eight children. Eight kids, yeah. Did you know Gary Goldberg? Yes. Yeah, of course. The wonderful Gary Goldberg. Yes.

For our listeners who may not know, Gary created family ties. He also produced Spin City and Brooklyn Bridge, just a very important TV writer and producer. And he and his wife, Diana, were huge proponents of childcare. Yes. And they were a paramount because they set up the, that whole day care center on the lot.

I was part of that. You were part of that. Oh, yes. I was part of that. Of course you were. Daycare was the thing I was the most connected to at the time through an organization called LA's Best. That was an after school care, but the people who I met through that were, you know,

talked about, we need to have childcare in the workplace. And so we figured, we would start here, even though I had kids, Gary Goberg had kids, it wasn't for my kids. I had childcare, I could afford, and I could see my kids and it would be okay. But you know, all the people who worked to paramount the hundreds and hundreds of people who came from the point of, and you know,

grew nose of what place outside of L.A., they're the ones who needed it. You know, so that's what it became. Well, that's a real game changer. What a great thing you did. Wow. you know, so that's what it became. Well, that's a real game changer. What a great thing you did. Wow. So what was it like for you as a pregnant woman on TV

and then as a young mom to be working? What was that like for you? Because you and Danny were both working at the same time. So how did that work? Did you share responsibilities? What happened? Well, I had to say that as far as working and being a mother and being on cheers for all those years and having the babies while I was on the show.

It was magical. It was a magical time that they everyone that show was so cohesive as far as the people. There was so much love there. And all of us were around the same age. And even though most of them were men, their wives were having babies. Right. That there were a lot of babies born during the cheers years. So it was like a shared experience of the work itself, and then you were all sort of in the same boat from a relationship and family growing point of view. Yeah, and we all had different issues,

of course, with relationships and with our kids, and then some of them were a little bit different in ages and stuff, but as far as working, I was happy I was working. I didn't work that far from home. I worked at Paramount and I lived, you know, it was like a 15, 20 minute drive, right? Yes. I was living in. The kids were allowed to come down, not all the time, but I had, you know, a little room down at the bottom of the stage and it was a lot of fun for them to come down just

to see it, just to go to where the craft service thing was. I know craft service is a huge thing for my boys because there would be junk food there. And they were, it was like walking into a paradise as soon as they saw that card table set up with bowls of M&M's. Yes, yes. We had besides the craft service table, we had the cans you draw. They knew where that was. And when they after they were there, they had to be refilled. That's all. I remember when somebody asked my son when he was young, and I don't, I can't remember

who it was, but they said, you go to work with your mommy. What is that like? And he said, they have really good raisins there. Oh, God. But you and Danny, did you share responsibilities as a parent during that time? Yeah, I mean, I say this because you were both working. That's why I asked a question. Yeah, and we did share responsibility standing tried to be as involved as he could. And I always feel like I did more, but I don't know if he would say that, you know, I just feel like, you know, I mean, how, of course, as the mother, there's no way for you not to do more.

I mean, how, of course, is the mother, there's no way for you not to do more? Mm-hmm. I think as a woman, or at least speaking for myself, I feel pressured to kind of, what's the word, lead the way as a parent to a certain extent, because you're the mother. Right. Right. I definitely was one who put together the bed that carried around. Sure. And I knew one thing I did know that he was not bad about them was I knew even as my kids were getting older when I was working, I knew where they were at every minute. I knew where they went.

Exactly. I knew where they were hanging out. I knew who they were with. Yes. It's like to me was really important to know even if I couldn't be the one who brought them to that house. Yes. Yes.

You know, or picked them up from school that day. Yes. That I knew where they were and what they were doing. Can you talk about what it's like, because I'm just curious, what is it like witnessing your daughter become a mother? What is that experience for you as now a new grandmother? Yeah. I'm trying to think of the right word, but it's, it's, it's inspiring.

I mean, awe of my daughter, being a mother. She's extremely natural. And she not grow up as a person who was like, oh, I can't wait to have a kid someday. I'm going to have a seven. It wasn't until, because I would drop the hints every now and then. I tried not to bombard my kids. You think you ever going to have a baby, you know, but I did say it every now and then,

but when she decided to do it, she came to me and she said, Andy and I are trying. I was like, yelling, you know, it was something, you know, it was time. It was her time. It was a time. And it gave me so much faith that your children are going to do what they need to do when they need to do it and to have faith in them. I love that you say having faith in them. Yeah. It's just, it's beautiful parenting advice, actually. Yeah. I want to get back to you in cheers because I saw that you said, in an interview, you said that you likening yourself to Carla and you said, we are both earthy and practical, we're

survivors. And I was just curious, if you were practical and earthy in your thirties, I mean, are you now at age 75? Well, I guess I feel more able to like, to do that loose and to do what I want, you know. And, you know, since Danny and I are, we are married, she, I heard your introduction, of course. Yeah, we are still married and we are still very good friends and we see each other a lot. Yes. And our family is still the most important thing to both of us, I believe. He loves to work like you.

I like to work. Did age in your life, did getting to getting older shift your relationship to ambition? You know, it's really weird when you think about it because I've kept a lot of that on the wraps. It's my insecurity, I think. Oh, interesting. I am a very insecure person. like go from shy to insecure. Yeah, I know it's not something that you'd always see, but like when I got the first part I got here, which seemed to me to come out of the blue, which was on a TV movie with Marielle Hemingway when she was 13, called, I wanna keep my baby.

Wasn't my baby, was her baby. She wants to be a keeper baby. And I was a social worker, you know, and, and I got cast in this. And I was, wow, you know, and that made me more ambitious because I thought, oh, this is a possibility for me, a real possibility. But I don't think I would have ever given up my relationship for it. And I didn't, you know. So you and Danny were married for however, well, you're still married, but you separated

now. You're separated for how many, a couple of years now? Oh, more like more than maybe. Oh, wow. I have no idea. Dates are not my thing. It could be eight. I don't know. What's that like as an older person now being an individual away from a partner, although I recognize that you have a really good relationship with him. So it's not like he's out of your life by any means. But I'm not going to like, you know, sugar code. It was difficult.

Uh-huh. It was very difficult at first. And there were a lot of reasons that we separated, which I'm not gonna go into. But of course not. And it took time for us to come to this somehow pretty decent understanding and relationship with each other.

I would imagine. Yeah, yeah. That's a big shift for you and for him, though, doubt. And I think it's amazing that you've come to this. I don't know this sort of, it sounds to me like you're pretty peaceful about it at this now. Well, I am at the moment. I live alone with my little dog. You know, it's my, my partner in life now. Um, yeah, I don't like living alone oh you don't know I like being along I like having time to myself I love if you know like if if I was when I was living with Danny and or and the kids were all in college or whatever if he went away to do something and oh good I have

like you know two weeks so I can do whatever I want, you know, right, when it's every day, it's not my favorite. It's not your favorite. Would you like to have a partner? Would you like to find another partner? Well, at the heart, but you want me to set you up. I always, you want me to set you up. No. You laugh, but don't set me up.

Don't let someone really wonderful, rich and famous, gorgeous, and a lot younger than me. I'm all over this. I'll get back to you in about 10 to 15 minutes. Okay. But, yeah, maybe, maybe not. I hear what you're saying. I mean, you like the autonomy on the other hand.

Maybe does it feel a little lonely? I don't know. It does. It feels a little lonely when I have people over a lot. I have my family comes over a lot. You know, like one kid or the I mean three kids. It's a lot of people and yeah, I have a lot of company and very good friends. My sister lives very close by. Well, how nice. But when everybody leaves after a great night, I go, ooh, where is everyone? Oh, gosh. Yeah, where is that person that we could just

talk about how the night went? Yes, yes, yes. How do you deal with endings? I wanted to ask that. I know. Because that's a part of life, right? Not just shows ending, friends, family, dying. You know what?

I could try right now just thinking about endings. I mean, they're hard, right? Yeah, they're hard. And it just feels so close when you know people. I mean, you start off knowing nobody, well, I started off knowing nobody who had died. Maybe my grandfather was the first one. But now, of course, we've all had friends who have suffered

awful illnesses and died and they know know more and it's really hard to me to ever put that in any context where it's okay. It's never really okay. It is like in my Zen meditative self I understand that as Ticknuck Han says, I don't know if you don't ticknuck. Yeah. Yeah. Sort of. He was a Vietnamese activist and became a great teacher, a meditation teacher, a mindfulness meditation.

And I didn't know him personally, but I read him a lot and watched all these videos that he was on YouTube and he was a very, very peaceful person. And he says all the time, there really is no death because we are pieces of the universe. And when we are no longer our human, in our human bodies, we become other pieces of the universe. Yeah. In reality, not just sort of an idea of it, we literally become other pieces of the universe, you know, maybe not the flesh,

but the part of us, that is us. Because what is us? Us is what's ever going on in our our mind and our soul we never know which which is which do we know what's coming from here and what's coming from here I I don't you know yeah right yeah so I would find that really comforting when I thought about death because as a, I was terrified of it. Not because I was surrounded by it, but because of the idea of it.

Right. Well, it's a mindful approach. And maybe then the question shouldn't be about endings because really the way you're talking about it and perhaps he was talking about it is that it's not so much an ending as a shift. I get so. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. That actually chokes me up thinking about that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A shift in it. Yeah. An acceptance of that shift.

Yeah. You know. Yeah. Totally. I love that. I'm going to take that to heart. Okay. I'm going to take that to heart. Okay, it's time to take a quick break, more with Rhea Pearlman after this. The Apple Books app is a single destination for all the books and audiobooks you love,

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I wanna ask you a couple of quick little questions if I could. Okay. Is there something you'd go back and tell yourself at 21? Oh, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, man, because you know accept it as it comes. Amen. The thing that somebody once said to me is, you never know what's around the corner.

Yeah. And that's the thing that I would tell myself at 21. Yeah. You know, things don't stop at this street. You never know what's around corner. Sometimes sounds like it's going to be something bad. But it could be something great. Right. Right. Right, right.

Okay, that's a great one. Relax. Is there something you would go back in your life and say yes to? Ooh, yeah. You're asking too many good questions. I'm sorry about that. There are so many things I would go back to in my life and

do a different way because I know what it is now. Uh-huh. Like there was a show I did called Pearl. It was on for one season. Yes. It came from an idea I had. Yes. And it was written and produced by people that I was not very close with, but seemed like they would do a good job. And they're very confident people. But I did not have a team. I didn't have a partner in that. So when things were not going right for me for the show, which I felt this is my show. I have to make it go right. And I had great people in it. Malcolm McDowell was in it. And Carol Cain and all kinds of really good actors. And it's a sitcom. Yeah. This is just kind of a business-y thing. I think that to be a successful producer, creator, you have to have a team of people on your side who are

going to back you up all the time. You can't do it yourself. Right. That's, you're not respected enough. No one is. Right. Right. Yeah.

Okay. So that's interesting. So you would have, you would have redone the team slightly or put somebody up there. Yeah. Yeah. I would have redone the team, redone the team. Redone the team. Redone the team. I had the right people, because those people might have been talented people, but they may not have been the right people for this show.

Got it. And you sound like you maybe you had an instinct that you didn't quite follow. Yes, and didn't really know how to, you know, at a certain point, I worked so hard at getting this show done. Yeah, it's a lot of work. Yeah, and then I would, when I wasn't being backed up

by the network or the producers, I'd be on the phone calling TV critics, myself, just blabbing to TV critics, just like, I don't think anybody does that. No, I think I felt like- I think you needed somebody to tell you not to do that. I wish I could have helped you. I should have called you. You should have called me. God damn it.

Is there something that you wish you'd spent less time on in your life? Oh, on Reagan on myself. I just wish I'd spent less time questioning myself all the time. That's unbelievable to hear. I was going to ask you earlier when you were younger, did you like your own body? No. You did not. See now this is so amazing And how do you feel about your body now? No. Really? I had a, I had a, I had a period of feeling good about my body. Oh, when I was younger, when I was a kid, I was a skinny, skinny kid. I just felt like I really didn't have a body.

I was not athletic. I wasn't, you know, good and gym. I didn't do anything like that. And then, then as I got older, first I went to yoga and then I started to really, really enjoy working out and exercise many different ways. And then I felt like my body was really in great shape. And it's been in pretty good shape.

Well, so now you're telling, now I think you do like your body. I think it sounds like you do. Well, but now it's gone. It's got like I was so flexible up to a few years ago. And now it's like, why can't I do that anymore? But are you still doing yoga? Yes, but because of the pandemic, I'm doing it on my own to an app. Yeah, I hear you.

Yeah, so it's not as intense, although Gracie became a yoga teacher. Oh, and so when she was available to give me classes, that was always great. Well, I just want to go on the record saying, you know, as I was rewatching episodes of cheers and other work that you've done, like Matilda and so on. You had an amazing body and I still think you have an amazing body, a very fit, very spray. No, really, I'm not kidding. Thank you. I'll tell you what is an amazing that I really want to do something about, but I

is like my skin. What happens to your skin? It gets cranky. I don't know. It gets cranky. It's like, what happens to your skin? It gets crinkly. It gets crinkly. It's like, what is that? I mean, it doesn't matter how many arm exercises I do. My muscles are good, but my skin that's covering those muscles are like, go away.

Don't rag on it. I'm giving you your advice that you're wish you'd given to yourself. Thank you. You're welcome. It's not something that haunts me good. Yeah, and what do you want me to know about aging? I don't like it I'm not gonna say a lot of good things about aging I mean so many things I don't like about aging All right, so so I'll prepare myself not to like it or prepare myself. I mean,

we're all aging needless to say, but anyway, that's very funny. But can you tell me something that you're looking forward to, Rhea? Oh, well, I'm looking forward to every stage of my granddaughter's life. Yeah. Yeah, I really am. And I used to only be looking forward to things like traveling, which is something I'm looking forward to. And I used to only be looking forward to things like traveling, which is still something I'm looking forward to. But I put on hold for quite a while because of the pandemic. And now this and, yeah, that's what I'm looking forward to most.

And maybe other grandchildren, who knows? Imagine that. Yeah. Yeah. What a blessing. Yeah. Well, you're a blessing, Rea Perlman. You're a blessing. Yeah. Well, you're a blessing, Rhea Pearlman. You're a blessing too.

We can be a group called the blessings. I got to find with me. I love that idea. Well, I wish you everything possibly wonderful and excellent. Thank you for talking to me. This has been the best conversation in I adore you. Oh, thank you, Julia. you. Oh thank you Julia. Okay have a good one. Bye.

Bye bye. Well how much fun was that? There is so much to tell my mom here. All right time to jump on the zoom with my mom. Mommy. Hi honey. So mom. Mommy. Hi. Hi. So, mom, I, so I have this conversation with Rhea Perlman who is utterly charming, by the way. You would love her. Oh, I, I love her from afar.

Yeah. I mean, there are a lot of takeaways from the conversation, but one of the questions that I asked her was, is there something that you'd go back and tell yourself at 21? And you know what she said? Relax. Oh, I think it is terrific. Yeah, I do too. How ever, can I say one thing?

Yeah. Try to tell a 21-year- old to relax. I know exactly. I mean, in other words, you know you look back and you think, oh, I was so tense, I worked too hard, I did too, I did too much, but try to go back and stop yourself from doing that when you did it. Was that possible? No, I guess it's not possible. So I guess that was a shit answer she gave us.

But I hear what you're saying. No, no, no, I know what you mean, because there's a kind of fervor that you have at 21 that's undeniable in it. I guess it perpels you to this moment now. She's 75, by the way. Yeah, oh, she's a kid. She's, she's, she's, nothing.

She's a spring chicken. Exactly. My God, she can be doing cartwheels tomorrow. At the most, I think it was, Exactly. My God, she can be doing cartwheels tomorrow. That, you know, when I think it was, it doesn't matter, said, youth has wasted on a young, I'll put it in. Wait, I mean, when you're young, you're on the make. Yeah. I mean, that's a crude way to say it, but it feels so true that you,

God, you wish you had could have the wisdom. You wish you could have stood back a little bit and had some perspective, but boy, the hormones are just thrusting you out there. Yeah, totally. It's a very good point. The other thing I asked her about endings, to talk about endings and what they're like for her. And by endings, I meant like, you know, shows ending, family members, friends dying, marriages ending, you know, endings generally that can have multiple meanings. First of all, she has, it was so visceral

because she was like, oh, they're so hard. She really, I really felt like she meant it. And of course they are hard. They're inherently impossible. But then she starts talking about, she does a lot of mindfulness work. And she was talking about that Buddhist monk, Tick-Not-Hon. Yeah.

You know him? Yeah. Yeah, him? Yeah. Yeah, I did. I pretended like I did. I didn't know. I wish I did. But I have his books. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Any William, I never knew him. No, no, I know. But you know of him is what I mean. Right. I did not know of him as she said it. And I have this moment of like, do I say I know?

Do I not? I kind of lied. And it was obvious. Anyway, whatever. And she was talking about how he says that they're, and I'm probably going to butcher this, but they're not like endings, they're transitions or changes that you're still of this earth, not necessarily in a flesh sense, but you are still of this earth. I found that so touching. And she was

talking about how hard they were for her, these endings. But while at the same time saying this, and I thought, oh, well, it sounds like you've got your head wrapped around endings in a pretty significant way. Anyway, I thought that was interesting, as hell. Or I think that's very interesting that you think of her and her work and then you think of Tick Not Han this month in the in Plum Valley and and isn't it amazing that these two came together that the mind and the ideas came together. I mean that's that's in your in itself. Isn't that funny? That who's yes, his brain working on this connected with her brain, this actress on cheers.

And then, you know, yeah, exactly. I mean, yeah, I'm so happy to hear that. I think that such a, it's very touching. And I think it's, it's absolutely wonderful. If we're not, I had a ball. I had a bad fall. I'm walking and I had these wrong side shoes on. It just matter.

But the fact of the matter is that afterwards I was thinking, I cannot fall, I cannot fall. And so, I take not Han has a thing and he says, walk is a big walking meditator and he says, walk is if your feet are kissing the earth. And so, I tell you that's a little thing that has stuck with me when I walk. In other words, cheat my mind, my mindfulness and my feet. Don't get distracted and think about other things. So anyway, he speaks to lots of things. Mom, what do you time out? You have the wrong size shoes on? Well, they were shoes that had the, you know, the sole sort of stuck out a little bit. Well, no, it's stuck out from the, well, no, I mean, I can't tell you why I feel, I mean,

I don't know, but I was walking fast and I was on Wisconsin Avenue and down I went. And when I started to pull, I thought to myself, I'm falling. And I fell and then, you know, people came and quickly said, oh, you all right, all right. I told you this. And then I said, and I, oh, you all right, all right. I told you this. And then I said, and I had to kind of check everything out. And I said, yeah, I'm OK. My watch, my watch went by my arm, wow, wow.

So I put my arm up. And I said, I can't see my watch. But I think it's trying to call 911. So I said, good, somebody can't solve it. And so I said, OK, now I'm fine. So then I was able to get out and walk. I was so glad that the watch got condoned. Yeah, that's incredible that that happened,

but I'm still not exactly sure what these shoes are that you were talking about. They don't fit you. Don't wear them anymore, right? No, I gave them a way immediately to, I was saying to the needy. No, I think we're going to have to cut that out. Perfect. Okay. Vanity. Mom, seriously, what are we in the middle of a Dickens novel?

I gave away to people who had bigger feet than I do. Okay. Maybe that's the better way to phrase it. Okay. Well, anyway, I think that's perfect. Okay, mommy. Well, I think that's good. I think we've had our good recap.

I think we have due love. And thank you for being in touch with me. And thank you for being in touch with Rhea. Okay. Love you, mama. And I'll talk to you later. I'll call you later. And blah, blah, blah.

Love you, love you. Okay. Love you, love you. Bye. Bye, mommy. Bye. Do you know how to turn it off? It's done here.

Oh, too. Hmm. Okay. So there's a It's done here. Go to. Mm. Okay, so there's a button that says leave. I know, but it's not on here. Okay, move your mouse down. No, no, it's on here. It's on this one, down here.

It's way down there. They go leave and now leave. Okay. And now I'm sewing. Okay, bye mom. There's more Wiser than me with Lemonada Premium. Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content. Subscribe now in Apple Podcasts. Wiser than me is a production of Lemonade Media created and hosted by me, Julia Louis

Dreyfus. The show is produced by Chrissy Pease, Alex McCohen and O'Hallopes. Brad Hall is a consulting producer. Our senior editor is Tracy Clayton. Rachel Neal is our senior director of new content in our VP of Weekly Production as Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Stephanie Widdle's Wax, Jessica Cordova Cramer, Paula Kaplan, and me. The show is mixed by Kat, Yor, and Johnny Vince Evans and music by Henry Hall, who has a new single out called Suddenly a Kiss. You can find it on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Charlotte Cohen-Sunderson, Will Schlagel, and of course my mom, Judith Boles.

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