Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus - Julia Gets Wise with Rita Moreno

Episode Date: December 11, 2024

On today’s episode of Wiser Than Me, Julia connects with EGOT-winning actress, singer, and dancer Rita Moreno on her 93rd birthday. The two discuss why Rita almost backed out of her Oscar-winning turn as Anita in West Side Story and the complex emotions Rita experienced after her husband of 45 years passed away. Julia and Rita also bond over the fact that they both find Mel Brooks sexy. Later, Julia talks with her 90-year-old mom, Judith, about seeing the original West Side Story on Broadway and how musicals can be an important vehicle for storytelling.   Follow Wiser Than Me on Instagram and TikTok @wiserthanme and on Facebook at facebook.com/wiserthanmepodcast.   Keep up with Rita Moreno @theritamoreno on Instagram.   Find out more about other shows on our network at @lemonadamedia on all social platforms.   Joining Lemonada Premium is a great way to support our show and get bonus content. Subscribe today at bit.ly/lemonadapremium.    Wiser Than Me is sponsored by ZOE. Visit ZOE.com to find out what ZOE Membership could do for you and use the exclusive code WISER10 to get 10% off membership.   For exclusive discount codes and more information about our sponsors, visit https://lemonadamedia.com/sponsors/.    For additional resources, information, and a transcript of the episode, visit lemonadamedia.com.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey, listeners, it's me, Julia. We're back for season three of Wiser Than Me. We've got so much more wisdom to share from the legendary old ladies featured this season. You know, so many of our guests have written memoirs reflecting on their experiences, and by putting it all into writing, they've uncovered a better understanding of what truly matters. Jane Fonda calls it a life review and wisely says to know where you want to go you first have to understand where you've been. So brilliant, right? That's why we've created a special Wiser Than Me

notebook so you can kickstart your own life review and write down some of the nuggets of wisdom these women share in each new episode. We just added these groovy hardcover notebooks to our merch shop. To buy yours, head over to wiserthanmeshop.com today. Just a quick note before we begin. This episode contains discussion of sexual assault, and there is a brief conversation about suicide. If you or someone you know is in emotional distress or contemplating suicide,

you can call or text 988 to access a trained crisis counselor. Okay, so we got invited to a fancy friend's fancy apartment in New York for dinner, the kind of thing I'm usually actually quite good at getting out of gracefully, but in this case it actually did sound like a nice group and I hadn't been around humans for a bit, you know, because I've been working and whatever, and so off we went. And I got seated next to a gentleman whom I have met before, and I've never really caught into, but what the heck, I mean, how bad can it be?

Uh, bad. Okay, so first of all, he starts to butt into conversations from all around the table. The mansplaining gets going pretty fucking quickly and we learn that apparently he's an expert in everything and most of all in making a lot of money which is just so thrilling to hear about again from another ivy league educated white guy who wouldn't know his own privilege if it ran him over which it did several times but did it stop him from bloviating oh no no, no, it did not. And like I said, you know what, these were fancy friends and they have a little balcony thing, so we were sitting outside, it was a lovely early fall evening. And as this guy is pontificating about his

latest trip to Dubai and the rising value of something or other, and I'm just praying that dessert is coming so I can get the hell out of there, I started to notice this really weird smell, right? I mean, it's like this awful smell. It's very close by. And I'm trying to identify it, and then it hits me. Oh my God, it's dog shit. This motherfucker is not just completely full of shit, he has stepped in shit, okay?

Dog shit. What a tremendous justice this was, but it was an awful stench. So dessert comes and I hurry through it and I make an excuse and we high tail it out of there and that dog crap smell follows us into the elevator where I'm telling my husband about how awful this guy was and then the smell is with me straight out into the street and it's still lingering as I'm you know dotting the i's and crossing the T's of my description of this, let's just say it,

asshole. And it's not until we are literally stepping into the cab that I realize the dog shit is on my shoe. Yeah. Here endeth the lesson. Judge not that ye yourself be not judged and all of that. But my big takeaway was that when you step in dog crap, you really have to just throw away the shoes. And my other big takeaway is how much I enjoy talking here to the wonderful, wise women on this show. I mean, it's so refreshing and revitalizing for me and I hope dear listener for you too. So thank God, thank God then, that today we get to talk to someone who is not full of shit but is full of wit and grace and talent and wisdom, the incomparable Rita Moreno.

I'm Julia Louis-Dreyfus and this is Wiser Than Me, the podcast where I get schooled Some actors have a kind of motor, an energy in their performances from role to role that is kind of supernatural. You know what I'm talking about? It's like an inner light that they bring to all their characters. They seem somehow to be totally alive, powerful, and impossibly vibrant. Our guest today is an actor like that. The first time I saw her, she was singing and dancing across the screen as Anita in West Side Story, a movie that came out the year I was born.

The film was shot in English with heavy accents and she was totally captivating to me from the bitter comedy of her killer dance number America to the unforgettably gorgeous harmony of I Have a Love. Oh god, I can't even think about it. It's so good. Knockout Stuff, and of course, she won an Oscar for it. And if it was compelling to me when I saw it on TV in reruns in the 70s, imagine what it meant to Latino families across this country and its territories as they watched her in a Spanish dubbed version.

For them, Rita Moreno wasn't just a star, she was their star, La Nuestra. Her extraordinary career on stage, in the movies, and on TV spans seven decades. She was the first Latina to win an Emmy, she has two actually, a Grammy, an Oscar, and a Tony, the famous EGOT. At a time when Latin people were especially marginalized

in Hollywood, Rita fought and continues to fight for roles that portray Latinas with dignity and depth. To put this into perspective, despite being the largest minority group in the U.S., Latinos still remain underrepresented in the media. Let that sink in for a second. If it's bad now, can you imagine the shitshow it must have been like back then? She has channeled that strength into becoming a trailblazer beyond showbiz, too. She marched for civil rights alongside Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., advocated for her friend Norman Lear's People for the American Way, a progressive advocacy organization, and has consistently worked to empower Puerto Ricans, urging them to vote and hold elected officials accountable. And that energy that I was talking about before,

it's still there. The woman is a dynamo when she performs now. Amazing! Whether you know her from The Ritz on Broadway or West Side Story, The Electric Company. Hey you guys! 80 for Brady or her scene stealing role in One Day at a Time. Rita has managed to keep the same irrepressible charisma she's had since starting Spanish dance lessons in the Bronx at the age of six. There's even, by the way, a tribute Barbie doll of her in her Oscar dress. I am so thrilled to welcome a real star, a mother, a grandmother of two, a true force of nature,

and someone who is miles and miles and miles wiser than me, the wonderful Rita Moreno. Welcome, Rita. Wow. I want more money. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if I'm that terrific, I really need to be paid for this.

No, you really do. That is such a good response to an intro. I want more money. Oh, Rita. Okay. Are you comfortable if I ask your real age, Rita? Oh, for sure. Today's my birthday. Get the hell out. Are you comfortable if I ask your real age, Rita? Oh, for sure.

Today's my birthday. Get the hell out. December 11th, I am today officially 93. Happy birthday to you, happy birthday to you, happy birthday dear Rita, happy birthday to you. Man, Julia, that's the best, the best. Let me ask you something about being 93. How old do you feel?

Oh, hell, I don't know. I don't go by numbers, so I don't know. I feel like me and I'm, let me just put it this way. I am a jolly, energetic, joyous, emotional, I cry at the drop of a hat, Puerto Rican is what I am. That's what I am. So I don't know what it feels like to be me. This is what I am. And what do you think is the best part about being your age here at 93 years old?

God, that's cool. I am so fucking smart. Yeah, this is the vibe I'm getting from you, smart. I'm smart, but I'm a lot of things that I have come to admire, I guess, is the word. I have come to like myself more than I ever used to in the old, bad old days. Yeah. more than I ever used to in the old, bad old days. Yeah. When being a Puerto, see I always thought of myself as a Puerto Rican.

And that was maybe one of the greatest mistakes I ever made. So that stuff is gone and done. I am just so fucking happy to be here. I heard you went on a two week vacation with your daughter. Yeah. Is that correct? And what was that like? Do you travel with your daughter a lot

and talk about sort of when you go on vacation with your daughter, are you planning it? Are you relaxing? What is it all about? It started this way. I was trying to think of a great birthday present about four years ago for her. And then I thought of something that we both absolutely adore. We're still Easterners in many ways.

And even though I was born in Puerto Rico, but I was raised in New York City. And I said to her, how does this strike you? We go to Boston, rent a car, and drive through all the New England states that we can and watch the leaves turn. Which is my idea of pure heaven. I've always loved that. She's always loved that. And she said, really? I said, why not?

Why not? That's a present. Totally. And she said, really? I said, why not? Why not? That's a present. And she said, oh my god, this is great. So I put her in charge, because she's the organized one, in charge of finding someone who would book us in little hotels, sometimes motels, and help us devise a map where we would get the most fun and the most eyeballing that we could.

It turned out to be such a success. We put on only Broadway musicals and sang the songs at the top of our lungs. We visited all the... Oh, God, I love New England. Isn't it divine? It really is marvelous. It's really marvelous. And the leaves are just outrageous. They're so gorgeous. Yeah, and they smell so good too. That, and we also had lots of lobster rolls. You know, all this stuff you can't really get here in California. And we ate at fabulous places. We ate at little places. Lots of crunching through leaves that had fallen. Oh, I'm telling you, I could do this for the rest of my life.

Oh, how lovely. Yeah. It's such a great present for both of you. And then you get to be together and really connect. Oh, we're also, you know, we're very close. Yes, I can tell. I mean, despite my being an impossible person and she being an impossible daughter, what can I say?

We're both a pain in the ass in our own special ways. Yes, but you're a pain in the ass together, right? Yes. Yes. So it's a great relationship. It's so lucky. That's so beautiful. I love the idea.

I've actually given my boys, I have two sons, and I've given them both, frequently I've given them like experiences as gifts as opposed to more crap to have around the house, you know? What do you mean by experiences? I mean tickets to shows, tickets to games. They're both really into sports, so I get them tickets to go see the Lakers or the whatever it happens to be, baseball, go see the Dodgers, stuff like that.

They love that kind of thing. But now I'm thinking I'm gonna give them trips with me. Absolutely. Yeah, I'm thinking I'm going to give them trips with me. Absolutely. Yeah, I'm going to do it. Absolutely. So you're obviously very fit. You work out all the time. What's your deal with that? I don't work out at all. Get out of here. No way, Rita.

Well, my knees are shot to pieces from all that dancing. I mean, West Side Story, no, the thing that really killed my knees was playing Norma Desmond in Sunset Boulevard. And you know how she makes these incredible entrances down the steps? Well, in order to come down steps, you have to go up steps backstage, right? And that almost killed me. That really ruined my knees. It's ruined many knees, many, many knees. So I don't do things that call for knee work and that's almost everything. So I walk, I walk the dog and I can't bend them very much.

In fact, when and if I am asked to accept a wonderful award, which happens more now that I'm older and they're saying, quick, before she kicks the bucket, let's give her this award. Let's not be found wanting. So, I mean, they think I don't know these things. Anyway, I always have to say, am I going to go up steps to the stage to accept this award? Because if so, then I really need some help. Well, I was there when you accepted at the, recently at the Academy Museum, and they gave you an award.

Oh, were you there? Yeah, I was there, and I heard your speech, which I wanted to talk about, but the, I don't remember you getting help going up the stairs. Oh, it's like 40 men came over. No, that's bullshit. That's practically lifted. No, I really, my knees hurt terribly when I go up steps.

So my grandson Justin was the first one there. And I told him, I said, if there's steps, please come help me. But you still walk. I mean, you're obviously... Oh, yeah. Yes. Okay. So then, and what about, if you don't mind, I'm curious to know, do you have like a, do

you have a food thing? Do you watch what you eat? Are you, explain what your food situation is. I try not to. You try not to eat? No. what your food situation is. I try not to. You try not to eat? No, I try not to watch what I eat. Oh my God, you're so funny. But no, I eat pretty much what I like.

I am pre, what my doctor calls pre-diabetic. So I do have to be careful about sweets and stuff like that. But I've been that for years and I'm still good. Good. So to hell with it. I'm just a lucky little bitch. Yeah, you are. You really are. I am. I was just born with fantastic genes. I have really good skin for someone who's you know 93 today

I know and then I read you used to sit out in the Sun and and become like a piece of bacon What the hell you haven't had skin you haven't had skin cancer issues or anything from that never never never Is that amazing? Yeah, you're so lucky my mom did she did you know? She had little skin cancer things, but I've never had a problem with my skin. Doesn't mean I don't have wrinkles. You just can't see them here. But no, that's even better because I'm out of focus. Yeah, out of focus is always good.

Whereas my mom would say, do I out of focus? My mother said the most wonderful things, the best thing she ever said, and I can't always tell this story, but I know I can with you. Tell me. My brother was graduating from high school and she gave him a little party And she had about, I don't know, about 10 people, grownups. And she was so proud of him that he was graduating from, as she called it, Junior High. And she said, everybody, I want to say something. And she said, I am so proud. I just want to tell you that he is graduating today from LeCunth Junior High.

Can you imagine the expressions on faces? I mean, there were people who, I mean, there were eyes that went like this. Big, big eyes. And I remember I ran to her and I said, Mommy, for God's sake. But she didn't know. She didn't know. No, I know, of course not. But it was also very also very annoying too sometimes.

And I said, A-E-I-O-U. Can't you say that? Can't you say that? She said, no. And you know very well why I got trouble with my bowels. So leave me alone. She was funny. So speaking of your mom, when you left Puerto Rico, you had a very tight family community

back in Puerto Rico, and you came to the United States with your mom when you were five, I believe. Yeah. And it was just the two of you in New York. How did you, in those early days, how did the two of you navigate together? You were a team, correct? Actually, if she were alive, you should ask her because I'll never understand how she did it. She had two or three jobs at once. My mother was a wonderful seamstress. She

had jobs sewing. She would leave me with a friend and she would go down to the district where they do all the sewing and that kind of stuff. The garment district? Thank you. That's the one thing that's happened since I became this age. I forget nouns. That's fine. I'm here for you. I'm here for you. Okay. Anyway, she did that. She took me to shows. She took me to dancing class. I used to dance for grandpa in Puerto Rico. And that's how it all started because I used to dance to records. And he loved it. He'd clap in time and he'd laugh and he'd smile. And I remember

thinking, this is nice. I like this. I like this a lot. And that hasn't changed. I love the attention. I mean, everybody, every actor, not every, but many actors who say they don't are full of shit. They like the attention. They do. They do like the attention. Or let's put it this way, they need the attention. Yeah, that's the way to say it. I need it. I'm an attention person.

I love it when people say, I love you. That's swell. It's not as though I'm fighting and battling all these fans. I don't have that kind of career or life. So it's cool. And I just moved from a big house to a condo in a lovely little town near San Francisco. And I always know when they recognize me now that it's a small town because I get this a lot. Rita's smiling and waving at me, right? Just so our listeners know. Right.

And sometimes there's a question in their face and I say, yes, I am. It's time for a break. There's much more with Rita for the people we love. There's nothing like seeing your adult child light up because you finally nailed it and surprise them with exactly what they wanted. Macy's Friends and Family Sale is here to help make that magic happen. From December 4th through December 12th, take an extra 30% off Top Gifts and 15% off the Best Beauty Brands. They've got something for everyone. Ugg boots, Advent calendars, Ness candles, Crocs. Crocs! Who

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Shop award winners and fan faves in store or online at brooklinnen.com. That's B-R-O-O-K-L-I-N-E-N.com. Get 15% off your first order today. Rita, I read your memoir and I have to say it's a page-turner. It's really well written. Your life is just fascinating and you're able to relay that beautifully in the written word. That reminds me of something and I have to say it when I can think of it because otherwise I'll forget.

Go. I did my, I do a talk and it's about myself and it's not on paper. It's somebody having a conversation with me. So it's called a conversation with Rita Moreno and I never know what they're going to ask because I usually don't know the person who's going to do this. But they know me and they know my career, etc cetera, et cetera. Yeah. And I did it recently somewhere, and somebody said to me afterward, my God, you are, what's the movie that Tom Hanks did where he played that wonderful character,

life is like a box of chocolate? Forrest Gump. Somebody said, you're Forrest Gump because you've done everything. You've been Washington, D.C., the walk on Washington. Yes. Marlon Brando was your lover. Yes.

You dated Elvis Presley. I talk about all of that stuff and sometimes it's hilarious. Sometimes it's heartbreaking because being in this business, being this age, particularly now is difficult. You don't get the jobs that you used to. But when he said Forrest Gump, I said, you know, I think you're right. I've done it all, almost. Do you know my wonderful story about Martin Luther King?

Well this is the story I want you to tell, please, because I was lucky to be at the Academy Museum when you were getting the honor recently. That's right, because I brought it up. I know, but our listeners don't know it. So you need to explain, set the stage. You were involved in the Civil Rights Movement. You were there at the March on Washington. And you were right there next to Dr. King, correct? I was 10 feet away on a chair sitting next to Sammy Davis Jr., and Martin Luther King

gets up to speak, and he starts a speech that was not the one we know at the March on Washington. And at that point, his very dear friend, who was that gospel singer? Oh, God. She was his good friend. It wasn't Mahalia? Mahalia. Mahalia Jackson. Mahalia, she was there with him, and she reaches for the back of his jacket because he started

another speech that she was not expecting. I saw this and I heard this. She says, Martin, tell them about the dream, Martin. She's tugging on his jacket. And he literally stopped and started again. It didn't seem that way. You know, who knew? Who knew? And he starts the, I had a dream speech.

And the proof of that, because a lot of people didn And he starts to see I had a dream speech and the proof of that, because a lot of people didn't believe me, because I'm one of very few people who knows this story. Nancy Pelosi knows this story. And what happened was that she apparently had heard him do this speech in one of the churches of a Sunday. And when she saw he wasn't going to do that one, she thought, no, no, no, no, he's got to tell them about the dream. This gives me such huge goosebumps. Me too. It makes me teary too.

Teary. And there's proof that he was not going to do that speech because you can look it up in the archives. If you look up the speech, it does not have. I had a dream in it. No shit. No shit. Is that a story?

That is a story. Can you talk about that? At that point, you hadn't heard him give that speech. Can you talk about your personal Rita experience hearing that speech in that moment of time? Can you bring us back to how you felt hearing it? I'll tell you what, he was a great pastor because he was also an actor. That's what made him so spectacular. Yeah, yeah. And I remember when his voice starts to tremble, I had a dream and people say, yeah, they're

going crazy before he even goes on. Everybody's yelling, yes, yes, yes. And I mean, my hair was just standing straight up. Sammy Davis was fit to be tight. He was just crazed with emotion. Everybody was crazy. And every damn time that man said something like that or let his voice tremble because, God, he knew when to do that. See, that's acting too. Yeah. He could read the room as it were. You're sincere about what you're saying, but it also calls for drama and a sense of

drama. And I realized how fortunate I was to have been asked to attend. Yes. It was Harry Belafonte who wanted some Hollywood people there because I'm assuming he wanted Martin to know that there were people in Hollywood who were sincere. And that's why he invited a group of us. Joseph Mankiewicz was there, James Garner. Now Jimmy Garner was a friend of mine because I had done a bunch of his TV shows as a guest star.

And Jimmy in the airplane was guzzling Pepto Bismol because he had an ulcer and he was scared to death that he would never work again. James Garner. So you can imagine how I felt. I mean, I didn't have that kind of name in a million years. And I was terrified. You were terrified because you didn't… I would never work again. Yeah.

I mean, come on. With good reason, you thought again. Yeah. I mean, come on. With good reason, you thought this. Yeah. And for the listeners, the Hollywood blacklist was a period of time largely in the late 40s to the 50s where the government persecuted people they suspected of being communist sympathizers. So given that, what did you learn about bravery during that period of time? I learned that it was the only way to function. And I think I was immensely brave for this reason.

How afraid you are determines how brave you are, as far as I'm concerned. So sometimes people do things that I know are brave, but nobody else knows. And I think that person is really courageous. So how frightened you are, like I was, that I would never work again, or that people, the press would take advantage of this Puerto Rican. Let's not forget that. That takes courage. I didn't think of it that way then. I just knew that I had an obligation and a responsibility and that's why I was there. That's why Harry invited me to be one of the people. Because at that point, just before then, I'd been doing a lot of political stuff. I had just started to get, I had a friend, a girlfriend, a roommate, Phyllis, who was very political.

In fact, I believe she was a communist once, no longer. But she became my mentor and my teacher. She politicized me. And we met in group therapy. Oh, interesting. And became roommates, as a matter of fact. I was crazy about her. And she found me, she loved, dearly loved me because she knew that I had gumption.

I didn't see myself that way at all. She saw it in you before you saw it in yourself. Oh, she saw it way before I ever saw it in me. I love that, what you say about bravery. I really do. I just think it's- It's really determined by how frightened you are. Don't tell me that people who do risky things

aren't worried that somehow it may come back and slap it in the face. I think people know that it takes a certain amount. They may not call it that. I call it courage. It is courage. You've mentioned actually that Anita became a role model for you, which I think that's interesting because I've never thought about like a character that I've played as being a role. Well, of

course, I've played a bunch of fuck ups, but in my career. But what was it about the character of Anita that you admired? Well, it was the first Hispanic role that I had been offered who loved herself. She had a sense of dignity. I've never played a Hispanic character who had those qualities. This was the very first time that I played a Hispanic character who wasn't talking like this all the time, you know? Who stood proud, who owned it proudly all. She owned it and she was proud of herself and she wasn't going to take any shit from anybody. And I was astounded that I was offered the part.

I was astounded because I thought, I'm so not that. Let me tell you an interesting story. Please. Speaking of Anita. Yes. When I finally got the part because I tested and tested and tested. Hey, did Cheetah Rivera also try out for it or how did that work? She was never, never offered. No. Wow. By the way, just so our listeners know,

Cheetah played Anita on Broadway. Oh, she was the original Anita. But anyway, I'm interrupting you. You go ahead, talk about that. You were auditioning for the role. I got the part after testing a lot. They tested everybody in Hollywood with brown hair and brown eyes. So I got the part after testing a lot. They tested everybody in Hollywood with brown hair and brown eyes.

So I got the part finally and I was beyond thrilled. It was a great part. Just a great part. Great part and the music is so gorgeous. Oh, please. Yes, yes. The first thing I did when I heard that I got the part, I ran to the music store and bought the music, the whole manuscript, so that I could be ahead of the game and I would know

America and all that, a boy like that, that kind of thing, so that I would know the songs backwards. You know, there would be no problem with that. Yeah. So I brought it home and the first thing I did was turn the page to America and Here is what I Read and sang to that manuscript Puerto Rico

You ugly island I Land of Tropic diseases I land of tropic diseases. You know, even just saying it now in that context gives me the chills and makes me makes my stomach royal. Because when I saw that, I didn't realize that that was the verse in the Broadway play. And I remember thinking, I can't do this. I can't do this. And then this went on for days and days and days.

And I kept thinking, I'm going to have to just call my agent and say, I can't do this. And then I would say, but I want the part. I want this so badly I can taste it. And then I would say to myself, no, you can't do it. You will never ever live that down. I was probably right. And I would say, all right, I'll call my agent and it'll be hideous because he will scream at me. We worked so hard to get that fucking part. I mean, I tested and tested and all kinds of stuff. I went through hell to get it.

And I thought, I was scared to death that he would talk me into doing it anyway. Did you tell anybody you had a problem with that line? No, no, no, no, I didn't know what to do. It didn't occur to me. So what happened? I'll tell you. The day before I had designated the day that I was going to call the agent the next day. I got a delivery at my door of the new script of West Side Story because the changes had been made. They had

to because this was meant for theater. Now this was the movie script. Yes. And I went through the pages until I got to America where they had the lyrics. It said, Puerto Rico, my heart's devotion, let it sink back in the ocean. That I could deal with because it's a character who says, I don't want to go back to that country. But she's not saying you ugly island,

island of tropic diseases. I mean, I'm actually surprised that I was then that Sondheim would write a lyric like that. Anyway, that solved that problem. Wow. And I said to my, I called my agent the next day, I'll say, I have a story to tell you. And when he heard that I was thinking of, he said, you're kidding me. I said, of course not. Do you think I could really do that to my people? And he said, no, I understand. I said, I don't think you do, but nevermind. Thank you for saying that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You talk in your book a lot about sexual harassment, which you endured at that party.

Oh, that awful Hollywood cocktail party. That awful Hollywood cocktail party in which you were sexually harassed. By the host. By the host. And by Harry Cohen. He was the head of Columbia, and he was there at that party. And the very first thing that came out of his mouth when I was introduced to him was, I'd like to fuck you.

To that day, I had never heard anyone use that word. I'd heard the word. I wasn't, you know, that innocent, but I was in shock. And you know what I did? I giggled. I didn't know what to do. Can I tell you something? Somebody said something like that to me

back in the 80s in Hollywood, and I did the same thing. I giggled. Did you? I did. I did. I was very young. Well, it shows how helpless we were then.

Yeah. It's amazing. how helpless we were then. Yeah. It's amazing. We didn't, we really didn't know. And if you could, like going, I know what I would do looking back on that. I wish I could replay it and just say, why don't you go fuck yourself? Which is, I think- Why don't you go fuck yourself? Yeah.

Don't fuck me, go fuck yourself. Is that what you would do if you could redo that moment? Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I'd have no qualms. But in other words, there's no giggling now. Oh, not at all. It's just disgraceful.

Well, except to say that don't you think the whole thing, it's interesting because you giggle, because first of all, it's so shocking. It feels so shameful. And you know, as women, I think we kind of absorb their shame. That's what's so weird. You take on it too. They're the ones who should be ashamed. But no, it's the opposite happens. Right. It's bananas. That's why I giggled.

I know. It's bizarre. It's bizarre. Let's take one more quick break. My conversation with Rita Moreno continues in just a moment. It's great when you can get someone a gift they wouldn't necessarily get for themselves, that little bit of luxury that they don't know they're missing. For quality gifts this season at an affordable price, Quince is the perfect go-to. Quince lets you treat your loved ones and yourself to everyday luxury at an affordable price.

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that keeps giving. So in the wonderful PBS documentary about your life you talk about something which I think is gonna really resonate with a lot of women listening to this. When your husband Leonard passed away, you were married for 45 years, you felt so many things of course and you were you know with him at the end. I'm glad you're asking me this. I don't want you going to ask. Go ahead.

Yeah, but you said that you felt a sense of relief. And I think that that was an incredibly, talk about brave, brave thing to say. I think it gives voice to something that is sometimes unspoken. And can you talk about that? Many times unspoken. Yeah, right. I'll tell you something interesting. About four months after he passed away, I was at a party with people my age mostly,

and there were five women who were widowed. And I said to them, I would like to ask you a question that I hope won't offend you. But I said, I really need some backup here. Because I really thought, man, you're a piece of work, feeling relieved like this. Because the morning after I came back home, he died in New York in the hospital. Morning after, in my bed, I said, when I woke up, oh my God, I can stay in bed all day if I want to. I can watch all the TV news that I want to because that used to make him crazy. Which is fair. That's fair.

And I realized that I just, it's like something amazing went over me, passed over me. And I asked these ladies at that party back to that, I told them how I felt. And I said, did any of you by any chance feel like that? There were five of them, four of them said yes. And they didn't hesitate to say it. Maybe because I'd brought it up the way I did, which was very simple and plain. And it's not, you're not saying that your love is gone. No, you're not saying anything remotely like that. What you're saying is I started a new life, brand new life, that I couldn't give up because of my daughter.

I just couldn't dream of leaving her without her father at the ready at all times. I just couldn't do it. Did you have any loneliness? I had loneliness before he passed because I didn't feel able to share that with anyone. I really thought of going back into therapy because one of the best things that I've ever done for myself was therapy, by the way, psychotherapy. But it was weird to feel all this freedom. I didn't know what the hell to do with it.

What did you do with it? Not much for a while. I cried a lot because I did miss him. And you know what I missed a lot? Tell me. A lot. To this day, I still miss it. Whenever he would pass me, usually it was in the kitchen, because I was always

in the kitchen doing something, he would run his hand over my tush. Oh. Which is so sweet. Always, no, no, nothing said, nothing explained. I knew what that meant. He just loved my tush. He loved me very, very much. I think that Lenny loved me more than I loved him. Because people, when they marry, very often make a pact, an unspoken pact. In my case, that's exactly what we did. My pact with Lenny was, I'll be your little girl and make you very happy if you'll be my daddy and protect me. I see.

Because I had a bunch of fathers. Right, I know. Stepfathers and stuff. And that was the unspoken pact that we made. After about 10 years, I began to dislike the marriage because he became a controller. And that really drove me crazy. And also the controlling part did something else that surprised me. I realized that in being his little girl, I was also this exotic little tropical bird. That's how he also saw me. And there was a point when I didn't want that anymore. I wanted to say, and I didn't know how to get it, this is the kind of man who, when you would go to the thermostat in the house, go to turn it up because you were cold,

he'd say, don't do that. And I wouldn't. Oh, I see. That's how that was. So that was the pact. You listened. That was part of the pact. That So that was the pact. You listened. That was part of the pact. That was part of the pact. You know, you said you wanted this, you got it.

So you don't have a partner now, right? And so can you talk about finding community? I mean, it's one thing when you're working because that's all built in. You know, you have your community at work. But when you're not working, what's your community? How have you found your community? I know you have, you're a proud mommy and you're a proud grandma. But beyond that.

Other than that. Okay, I'll tell you a story. Okay. I'm full of stories. I love it. Ap a story. Okay. I'm full of stories. I love it. Apocalyptic stories. No.

When I moved to this wonderful apartment, I found myself, and I love it, I love it. It's beautiful, it's gorgeous. I found myself getting very sad. This was like eight months ago. Okay. I mean, really sad. And I had given up driving. Also, I don't drive anymore because I don't trust my reflexes anymore. And I got very lonely. Now, I have friends. I have friends who love and adore me and love and adore me in a wonderful way because it's

not Rita Moreno, the performer. No, it's you, the person. It's Rita, my friend Rita. Yeah. You know? So I still don't quite understand how it was that I got very, very depressed and very lonely, lost my appetite, and I sat myself down and did what I do, which my therapist urged me to do whenever something puzzled me. He would say, sit down and think about

it and come to some kind of conclusion if you can. And I thought about it, I said, I'm in an apartment I love, I have my daughter whom I worship practically. I have this beautiful place. I have this lovely little town. People smile at me because they recognize me and they're respectful. All of that good stuff. What is wrong with you? Why are you doing this?

And then I thought, I know what's wrong. What? You don't know how to make friends because people have always come to you. Oh, so what did you do? So one day I was in the supermarket and there was a lady I'd seen several times there who had the loveliest

face and this beautiful smile. And one day I went to the supermarket after I made this decision and she smiled at me once again and I stopped her and I said, you have such a lovely face. I said, I think I would like to know you better. She said, oh, thank you. And I said, I amaze me sometimes. And I said, would you like to have lunch with me tomorrow? And she said, yeah, I'd love to. I said, great.

Okay, see you at noon. So I met her for lunch and we're looking at the menus and she says to me, tell me something. Do you always go picking up older ladies in supermarkets? I said, no. She's still a friend. Oh, that's so nice. Her name is Gail. Good old Gail. Everybody needs Gail in their lives. She's still a friend. Oh, that's so nice. Her name is Gail. Good old Gail.

Everybody needs Gail in their lives. That's right. Yes. Was it hard giving up driving? I bet that was hard. Jesus. It's still hard. Yeah, I bet.

Because I used to love to tootle around in my car. Of course. Oh, God. You have complete independence, autonomy. And that's what you miss. You know, I found myself calling Fernanda, my daughter, would you have a couple of hours free tomorrow, you know, that kind of thing? Oh, I hated that.

I still miss it. I still miss tootling. Of course you do. I can fully understand why that would be hard to give up. And what about things like cognition? Like when you're trying, I mean, it doesn't, I mean, you're searching for words here and there, but it doesn't sound like you're having any serious cognition issues.

That's the thing that's happening, that's been happening, which is that I don't always remember nouns, names of people, particularly names of people. Right, right. That's why I had to ask you about that movie. See, I names of people. Right. Right. That's why I had to ask you about that movie. See, I forgot it again. Well now I forgot it. Okay.

But that, yeah, so far that's the only thing. But it's a very annoying thing. Yeah. Because you can see the object or the person. Yeah. very annoying thing because you can see the object or the person. You see them as clear as day, but your brain will not come up with the name until five minutes later. It does come back. Is it frustrating to ask for help in those circumstances or not really?

Yes, it's frustrating. Of course it's frustrating. Because very often I have to describe the person whose name I can't think of. You know, the one who was married to Harvey Weinstein. You know, that kind of thing. Oh, you mean so and so? No, that's not the one. So yes, it's annoying. Yeah, it's annoying. I'm going to completely shift gears here because there's one aspect of your life that we haven't touched on, and I think that people would benefit to hear from you about this. I know you battled when you were younger, of course. You battled feelings of inadequacy,

and you attempted suicide. I want to know if do you still struggle with a negative voice in your head, that negative voice from way back when, and do you have advice for people who struggle with a lack of self-worth who are listening to this today? There is very definitely a side of me that is always kind of delighted when something doesn't work out for me. You're kidding.

Oh, I've named her Rosita, little Rosita, which was my name as a child. Yes. But this is a naughty Rosita who kind of sits on a shoulder. And I've learned to deal with her this way. Rosita, when something bad happens, will very often appear, not always, but often enough appear and say, I told you. Ha ha ha ha ha. She's still there after all these years. Really? And after wonderful, wonderful psychiatric work and all that, Rosita exists.

And what I've learned to do with Rosita is say, go to your room, little bitch. Sometimes she does, sometimes she doesn't. But what happens when she doesn't, Rita? I, Rita, have to deal with it in my own way. I examine stuff. I examine stuff all the time. I break things apart like a puzzle. That's what I do.

I'm very good at that. I'm very good at knowing why people behave in certain ways, which is part of being an actor. Sure. Human behavior. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And I'm really good at that.

And I'm able to do it with myself. It doesn't always work. But the thing is, you have to address it. Her, him, whoever. You have to address it. You can't just say, God, I'm feeling so miserable. I'll try to forget this. It doesn't work anyway. That doesn't work at all. In your life, there's a theme that I'm feeling, and the theme is about power and freedom. And I think, if you agree with me, as you've lived your life, you've felt more power, self-power, and you've gained more freedom. Is that safe to say?

Yeah, you're a very smart girl. Yeah. And you're not a girl either, but to me you are. I'll take it. Yes. I think that works very well. And I'll tell you something else that I started doing. Actually, since I moved here, which is not more than 10 months maybe, there's something about me that's very joyous.

Yeah, no kidding. It's just very much a part of me. I laugh a lot. I mean, laughing is like a hobby with me. I loved it. The reason I really fell in love with my husband is because he was funny. Yeah, that's the great aphrodisiac. I'm the only woman in life, in this life I'm sure, who thought that Mel Brooks was sexy because he was funny. No, there's another person who thinks the same and that's me. I couldn't agree with you more.

Okay, I'll tell you why I think that's sexy. There's something about someone who has a quick wit that makes me feel protected from the outside world. And I find that very sexy because they can protect me. With their wit. That's still sexy for me because that's a way of protecting me by just coming up with some funny hilarious thing that will distract that person who's handing out the poison. Oh, interesting. What's your reason?

I think for me, it's twofold. I think it speaks to intelligence, which I find intoxicating. Oh, me too. I forgot to mention that. That's so important. So important. Yeah. And it's also just, it's playful and it's joyous and that's what I want. I want play. I want joy. That's my goal. If there was anything more to get in my life, I just want more joy and more play. Yeah. And so Rita, speaking of joy, it has been so wonderful to speak with you today. And

before we wrap up, I do want to ask you a couple little quick questions. Okay. Okay. Is there something you would go back and tell yourself at 21, Rita? Oh, boy, I certainly would. What would it be? You have value. No matter what you think, you are special and you have value. Nobody ever said that around me. Is there something you would go back and say yes to?

That I originally said no to, you mean? Yeah. I said yes to often. Let's put it that way. Oh, I see. That was my character. Even when I was not happy about saying it, I would say yes. Oh, that's fascinating.

And I was very often, you know, that man who raped me that I talk about in the documentary. I ran into him about three years ago, and it turned out that the concert I was doing the following night was booked by him. He's still an agent. He was, and just so our listeners understand, he was your agent at the time and he raped you. And I was 16 and he raped me. And I kept him as my agent.

That's the bad part. I found out that he had booked me in this concert about three years ago in Palm Springs. And he said, he called me on the phone and I thought, oh my God, he's still around. And he said, my wife would love to meet you told me her name. He said, let's meet at the such and such restaurant for brunch. And you won't believe the end of the story. I sit down, I meet his wife and we talk and all that. She has no idea. None. At one point she decides she needs to go to the bathroom, excuses herself, and there we are, just the two of us. And I said to him, I have to talk to you about something. And he said, but let me say this first. And I said, okay.

He said, I was always sorry I didn't make you pregnant. What? Yeah, that's what all my friends say when I tell them this story. And Rita, what? And then what? Well, okay. How do you respond to something like that? How did you respond?

How did you? You can say, you son of a bitch, I've never been in it. And that didn't work for me. And I just said to him, you are a piece of work. And I got up and left. That's all I could do. I mean, what can you say? Well, he has to live with himself, that horrible, demented, awful man. He has to look at himself

in the mirror and be who he is. I'm glad you got up and left. I'm glad. He didn't realize what he had said. He really didn't. Course he was coarse. So coarse, crude. Crude, vulgar, foul, inhumane. Well, good. So you didn't tell him off except that you did. You got up and you left. There was no way to tell him off. What can you say? You were awful. I'll never forgive you. I haven't forgiven you. It doesn't work. I think you said it.

I think in that circumstance, less is more. You're a piece of work. I'm out. Yeah. Wow. That's just incredible, Rita. You really are brave. So now I have one final question for you.

Is there something you're looking forward to? Yeah, B94. Yeah. So far, so good. Oh, that's right. I love it. I mean, if it's only nouns that I'm forgetting, that's not the worst thing in the world. No, it's not.

No, it's definitely not. My knees are horrible, but so what? I don't need them for anything anymore. No, it's fine. You don't have to walk up gobs of stairs. Right. And listen, you are a blessing. Except to accept awards. That's right. And I'm sure there'll be plenty more coming your way. You deserve every one of them.

Oh, God, no, I don't think there's anything left. I've got a lot of those. But listen, I want to tell you how much I admire you, and you're just a complete and total blessing to the world. Wow. That's lovely. Thank you. And also thank you for coming and talking to us on this show. We've got lots of wisdom that you've imparted today today and we're very grateful. Well, you're so special anyway. I was really was looking forward to this. Oh, thanks.

I had such a good time. Good. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for being here. My pleasure. Goodbye. Bye. How much fun to catch Rita on her birthday. Oh my god, that's a wiser than me first. And obviously she's experienced so much in her life. All right, let's get my mom on the Zoom and see what she has to say about this conversation. Hi, mommy. Hi, love. Hi, Lovey Mommy. How are you doing? I'm doing fine. How are you doing? Good.

I just spoke with Rita Moreno, who is 93 years old, if you can even believe what I'm telling you. She's incredible. Is she still dancing like crazy? She doesn't dance as much as she did because her knees are kind of shot, as she says. However, she's sharp and she's got a lot of energy. She's got a lot of energy. She's got a lot of energy.

She's got a lot of energy. She's got a lot of energy. She's got a lot of energy. She's got a lot of energy. She's got a lot of energy. She's got a lot of energy. She's got a lot of energy. She's got a like crazy? She doesn't dance as much as she did because her knees are kind of shot, as she says. However, she's sharp as a tack. She says she's still searching for nouns and things, but she's still working. She gets out there. I mean, it's quite remarkable.

By the way, Mom, when you were in New York in the 60s, even the late 50s, I guess, did you see West Side Story on Broadway? I did. Yep. You did? Oh, yes. Yes, absolutely. Yep. So you saw the original production? The original production. Right. Tell me what your, when you saw it, what was your reaction? Do you recall? Oh, breathless. Just breathless. It was just one of those. I mean, you knew from the minute it started,

it was a little bit like Chorus Line, the minute that it started and the music man, these shows, the minute they started, you just knew that you were going to have a glorious time. Wow. So you got to see, so you saw Cheetah Rivera play the role of Anita, because she's the one who played it on Broadway, right? I know. So what year was that? Oh, what year was it on Broadway? I'm gonna guess that it was in the late 50s. I don't know that for sure, but I would guess that because the movie of West Side Story came out in 1961. Right. So it had to be before then. The movie of West Side Story came out in 1961.

Right. So it had to be before then. So here was it. I was working at ABC at that time doing summer replacement and I was a replacement for somebody's secretary. And so I was listening. He had a telephone call and the call came and it was like, get ticket, it is going to be a smash hit, you know, get tickets.

So we did and oh my God. Yeah. Wow. So many things, so many things then. What else did you see? Oh my gosh. I saw Waiting for Godot with all these off-Broadway things. And that had, who was the lion? Burt Lahr.

Burt Lahr. And Zero Mostel in something called Rhinoceros. So many wonderful things that I saw at that time. Yeah. Did West Side Story, did that impact your impression of sort of the Latin community at that time? Did the show have impact on you from a cultural point of view as you considered the Latin community in New York? It did.

How to say this, you know, La Cage aux Folles sort of taught me about homosexual love. It made me see that it was real. I mean, that made me understand it. And the Latin community, the sort of pride that they had in the struggle that they had, I sort of knew it, but it was, yes, it was a way to understand it. It was a way to understand it. Got it. Yeah.

Yeah. It was a very powerful work of art. Yeah, very. Yeah. Yeah. Great, Mommy. Well, thank you so much. I'm so happy to talk to you about these little things.

So great to talk to you about these things too. And my poetry group was together yesterday and they all said, they said, you're a celebrity now. You are, mommy. Everybody is crazy about you. I said, well, you know, it's just regular conversations that Julie and I have. And I said, I actually don't want to get off the phone. She always says, well, okay, then that's enough. Can I feel a little more lonely?

Yeah, I'm like a therapist who goes, okay, well, I'm afraid our time is up. Exactly, exactly. So until next time. Until next time, dear patient. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, much love. Love you, mommy.

Talk to you later. Okay, bye. Bye, bye, bye. And before much love. Love you, Mommy. Talk to you later. Okay. Bye. Bye. Bye. And before we go, dear listeners, if you or someone you know is in emotional distress or thinking about suicide, you can call or text 988 to access a trained crisis counselor. There's more Wiser Than Me with Lemonada Premium on Apple. You can listen to every episode of Season 3 ad-free.

Subscribers also get access to exclusive bonus interview excerpts from each episode. Subscribe now by clicking on the Wiser Than Me podcast logo in the Apple Podcasts app and then hitting the subscribe button. Make sure you're following Wiser Than Me on social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok at Wiser Than Me and we're on Facebook at Wiser Than Me podcast. Wiser Than Me is a production of Lemonade Media

created and hosted by me, Julia Louis-Dreyfus. This show is produced by Chrissy Pease, in me as a production of Lemonade Media created and hosted by me, Julia Louis-Dreyfus. This show is produced by Chrissy Pease, Jamila Zaraa Williams, Alex McOwen, and Oja Lopez. Brad Hall is a consulting producer. Rachel Neal is VP of New Content, and our SVP of Weekly Content and Production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles-Wax, Jessica Cordova-Cramer, and me. The show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with engineering help from James Barber,

and our music was written by Henry Hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlegel and of course my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser Than Me wherever you get your podcasts. And if there's a wise old lady in your life, listen up. Hey Wiser Than Me listeners, we want to hear from you. By just answering a few questions on our listener survey, you can share feedback about show content you'd like to see in the future and help us think about what brands would serve you best. And even better, once you've completed the survey, you can enter for a chance to win

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