Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus - Julia Gets Wise with Ruth Reichl

Episode Date: April 25, 2023

On this episode of Wiser Than Me, Julia gets enlightened by 75-year-old food writer, magazine editor, and author Ruth Reichl. From her infamous New York Times review of Le Cirque to greenlighting a controversial David Foster Wallace article in Gourmet, Ruth is as gutsy as they come. Ruth talks to Julia about living with a mom who has bipolar disorder, processing grief through food, and why you should always do things that scare you. Plus, Julia asks her mom Judith what to cook when Ruth accepts an invitation for dinner.   Follow Julia on Instagram and Twitter @officialjld. Keep up with Ruth Reichl @ruth.reichl on Instagram and Twitter @ruthreichl. You can find out more about our show @lemonadamedia on all social platforms.   Joining Lemonada Premium is a great way to support our show and get bonus content. Subscribe today at bit.ly/lemonadapremium.    Wiser Than Me is brought to you by Hairstory. Use code WISER at checkout for 20% off your purchase, and Hairstory will donate 10% of proceeds from this code to water preservation efforts.    Wiser Than Me is brought to you by Evereve. Check out Evereve’s latest curated styles and get 20% off your first online order when you use code WISER.   Sleep better at night with Boll and Branch sheets. Get 15% off your first order when you use promo code WISER at bollandbranch.com   Click this link for a list of all Wiser Than Me sponsors and discount codes: https://lemonadamedia.com/sponsors/.    For additional resources, information, and a transcript of the episode, visit lemonadamedia.com.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonada. When I was about 28, I got pregnant for the first time and I was crazy happy. I got pregnant easily. I felt very fertile, very womanly. And then, quite late in the pregnancy, my husband Brad and I discovered that this little fetus was not going to live. So that was emotionally devastating, as you can imagine, but it got worse because I developed an infection that landed me in the hospital. And I mean, this whole thing was just a complete nightmare.

Of course, my mom flew out to be with me. And before she left, she told her best friend, Ellie, that she was coming out to be with me. And naturally, the first thing that Ellie said to her was, so, what are you going to cook? After a couple of days, I finally got out of the hospital and I came home to recuperate, but I wasn't allowed to get up out of bed yet. I was, as they say, bedridden. But my mom cooked. She made this incredible, cozy chili in a cast iron skillet with cornbread on top in the pan.

And she and my husband Brad set up a little card table at the foot of the bed and the smell of that cornbread and the chili was so wonderful. It just filled the room and the whole house and my heart really. Because here's the thing I couldn't eat. I wasn't yet allowed to have solid food, but it didn't matter. It was the best meal ever, and I didn't even eat it. The making of it was so comforting, it was so embracing. Food is central to the traditions of my family. I would think that to most families, that's the case. I relate food, especially to my mom.

She's a great cook. This is one of my greatest memories around food, even though it has sort of an odd kicker, really. Like my sweet niece, Fiya, says before a meal, we'd like to give thanks to everyone who had a hand in bringing this nutritious, delicious food to our table. Isn't that a lovely prayer? I am so thankful to have food.

God knows plenty of people don't. And I'm also so thankful that today I'm talking with food writer Ruth Ryshel. Hi, I'm Julia Louis-Dryfus and this is Wiser than me, a show where I get schooled by women who are Wiser than me. Oh man, are we in for a tasty treat today? I am talking to Ruth Rysal who does so much that's impossible to describe her as any one thing. She is an actual fucking polymath. A celebrated chef, a restaurant tour, an early

mover, and shaker, and what I guess you'd call the farm to table kind of food movement, she can correct me on that when we get going. She reinvented the role of food critic at the LA times and the New York times, and as editor she reinvented Gourmet magazine, which is where I first fell in love with her deeply in love with her. I was obsessed with gourmet. That's where she published actual food literature by people like David Foster Wallace, which is no surprise because she's also a fanziass writer herself, writing nearly a dozen books, amazing cookbooks, revelatory memoirs like Tender at the Bone, cookbooks, revelatory memoirs like Tender at the Bone and a novel. She's won seven James Beard Awards, which is like the Oscars for Food, and she's earned a reputation as a totally subversive, democratizing force, an activist in the world of food.

She's also a daughter, a wife, and a mother, and she's obviously wiser than me, holy shit, rude. The idea of being wise,, is just at it. It's daunting. It is daunting. So pretend we're just having a conversation. Okay. So first of all, are you comfortable saying your age?

Yes. You can't think of yourself as young anymore when you're 75. And that's a very strange idea to me because I don't feel like an old person. Yeah, you don't look like one either if you don't mind my saying. Well, thank you. My biggest problem with getting older is, you know, there were things that you think of, like, when my cats die, well, I get more cats because they would outlive me.

It's funny. I've had the same thought about my dog George because I figure he'll live like 14 years. And then I'll be into my 70s or I'll be 75. Let's say he kicks it then. Do we get another animal? Yeah, so you think about things like that. I mean, you actually think, will I be around when X happens?

Right. I mean, that's the big thing I might, because I hate the idea of not being here. I never want to miss a party, you know. I'm having so much fun in this life. I just, I'm not ready to give it up. Yeah, I hear that. There's a lot of joy to be had.

I mean, it's funny because, not I don't want to get morbid, but you know, I breast cancer a few years back. And when I got the diagnosis, which was so fucking terrifying. But one of my first thoughts was, I don't want to go. I don't want to leave. I don't want to leave.

I do not want to leave. And it was sort of what you're talking about. I'm not ready for an exit in any sense, you know? Exactly. But you've survived it, right? Yes, yes, yes. Yes, I am. Touchwood.

Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, I'm five years out now. So that's a good thing. First of all, the way you write about food and your food memories, and I was talking about this with my husband, Brad, whom you know, and he was saying that it reminded him of writing about music. What is your process to write about food in such a way so that people feel it, taste it, experience it. What is that process for you? If you can break it down, I don't know if you can. Well, I can try. And in many ways, food is my music. You know, I mean, the kind of pleasure that other people get out of music, of pleasure that other people get out of music, I get out of food. And it just gives me endless joy.

And I have always wanted other people to understand that here is this simple pleasure. You know, it's there. It's available to all of us. Yeah. All of the time. Right. And I really believe that it's important to be open to the little pleasures of life. I mean, I think that's probably the secret to living is to be aware when you taste a strawberry that, you know, it's a moment of grace that you're in the world. I mean, or if you're out walking in the rain and just that feel, I mean all of those things are a way that we can experience joy. And I grew up in an America that didn't care about food, didn't appreciate food. You know, American food was a joke in the 50s. Right.

And food was a joke in the fifties. Right. And I lived in New York and I was surrounded by all this really wonderful food. And I kept wanting to say to people, here, here it is. Right. So I spent a lot of time thinking about how do you describe the intangible? And the more you think about it, the more you understand that I have no idea if you taste what I taste. Right? Of course. Yeah. It's such a personal, you know, it's going on in your mouth. Yeah. And who knows if anybody else in the whole world tastes what you taste. So I always tried to write about food

in ways that transcended flavor. I mean, saying that something tastes like lemon isn't very useful if you hate lemon or lemon doesn't taste, I mean, I love lemon. But if lemon doesn't taste the same way to you as it does to me, how is that useful? But if you say, when I have fresh lemonade, it feels to me like walking in the rain beneath the lilac bush, or it's as good as that shower you take when you come in from a run. And then you're sort of telling people what the experience of it is rather than the

flavor. Right. I spent a lot of time trying to think about how would I describe this flavor in a way that would make sense to someone who had who basically didn't, wasn't able to taste. So you're sort of connecting it to experience and to memory and you're getting in the inside of it in a way, in that sense? Yes. And you're trying to take experiences that we all know. trying to take experiences that we all know. What is it like on the first day that it snows, and you go outside, and you haven't seen snow for a year?

Yeah. Yeah. What is it like to catch a snowflake on your tongue? That's a useful way of describing eating a souffle, you know, the way it just evaporates. Right. Oh, you're, the way it just evaporates. Right. Oh, you're so right. That's amazing. Have your taste buds changed as you've gotten older?

Probably, but I'm not aware of it. Really? It's like being the frog in the pot of flowing water. It happens so gradually that you haven't noticed it got hot. But like when you were younger, where there are foods that you loved or hated that you haven't noticed it got hot. But like when you were younger, were there foods that you loved or hated that you feel differently about now, or is it sort of remain? Well, I, you know, I've only really ever hated one food.

And the truth is that I don't hate it as much as I used to. Ah. I have always loathed honey. What in the living fuck are you talking about? I can't stand honey. I just hate it. Really? It makes my whole body quiver. I just can't stand that taste, but I can tolerate it now. And when I was a kid, I really couldn't.

I used to hate honey when I was little, but as I've gotten older, I've gotten older, I've grown to like it a lot. Incomprehensible to me that someone could like honey, I know most people do. God, I mean, like if you could describe honey, your experience with honey, how would you describe it?

I would describe it as like leaping into a mud puddle which turns out to be deeper than you thought it was. Oh, the bees now hate you. No, they're happy because I'm not stealing their honey. Yeah, it's true. They don't want you to steal their honey. No, they don't.

They like me a lot. Yeah. That's amazing. They don't want you to steal their honey. No, they don't. They like me a lot. Yeah. That's amazing. God. So what's the best since we're dancing around the ideas of experience and wisdom and so on. What's the best advice you've ever gotten? Well, let me see. When I was, I had been a freelance writer, I was living in Berkeley in a commune, and I was asked to become the restaurant critic of the LA Times. Right. And I was very reluctant to move to Los Angeles to take a job. I mean, it was 35 and I'd never had a real job.

I'd always been freelance. I had become very good friends with MFK Fisher. And I told her that I had gotten this job author and I was going to turn it down. And she said, you take that job. You are polishing every word you write as if it were a gem. And you need the experience of going to a newspaper where an editor says to you, I need 15 inches and I need it in an hour. And you do it. And it's not the best thing you ever wrote, but it's good enough. And tomorrow it's going to be lining someone's bird cage and you just need, you need that experience. You need to learn to write fast and to not have it be perfect. Not to be precious about it. Yes. And I took the job and I think it was a piece of advice that transcended, you know, take that job.

piece of advice that transcended, you know, take that job. It was about perfection in some ways. I think. You know, as an editor, I have known so many writers who can't turn the work in because it's not perfect yet. And you can waste your whole life looking for perfection because nothing will ever be perfect. No book is ever really finished. You know, you could keep

making those sentences better. So, I mean, the advice that she gave me essentially was, don't ever think that perfection is your goal, because it's not. It can't be. There's more with Ruth Rysal in just a few moments. Did you know that the plastic from shampoo results in over 500 million empty plastic bottles every year? It's enough to fill 1,164 football fields. I love products that do better than that, which is why HairStory is a sponsor of this show. HairStory has been founded on the principles of sustainability and they take this seriously, producing a hair product called the new wash that is 100% biodegradable and 100% in recyclable pouch packaging. Most people don't know that traditional shampoo is just not the greatest for their hair

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See additional terms at one peloton dot com slash home dash trial So complicated women, so your mother was a very complicated person. Oh my God. Oh my God. Yes, yes. Yeah. She really was. And, you know, she was bipolar.

Yeah. You know, as one of her shrinks said to me about the worst bipolar case he had ever encountered. I mean, she was really, I mean, the highs were really high, where she didn't sleep for weeks, and the lows were, she would go to bed for six months and read the same book over and over and over and over again for six months. But, you know, if you have a really crazy parent, one of two things happens. They either destroy you, or they make you strong. And, you know, I literally still, I wake up every morning,

grateful that I'm not my mother. You know, and I'm very aware of my good fortune in being sane. And that's a piece of great good fortune. And if you recognize your fortune early in your life, and I knew it from the time that I was about eight or nine, that my mother was deeply unhappy and I wasn't. There's a real measure of happiness. I mean, I feel like I am basically a happy person

and that happiness comes from knowing that I don't have the same burdens that my mother did. Was your dad a happy man? He wasn't unhappy. Uh-huh. My dad was a sort of classic European intellectual. And I don't think happiness even figured into his idea of what life is.

You know, I didn't and don't have parents with as bad a mental health issue as your mother. But my father, who since passed, is, oh, God, he was a true narcissist in the clinical sense. So I can understand what you're talking about, sort of recognizing it. And I've spent a lot of time in my own life trying to somehow fix that with him. But there was something nice when I realized that's him and that's not me. And away from that is where I live, you know, separate.

Yes, yes. And that's a very big step. And I think there was a point in my life where my mother was inside my head. And I can't even tell you. I wish if I knew how I exercised her, you know, I could change the world. I don't know how it happened, but there was a point when suddenly she just didn't have that power over me anymore.

And I was an adult at the time that that happened where she and I were just truly separate. So does that mean you didn't talk to her as you got older? No, no, not at all. It just meant that when I did talk to her, she didn't have that power over me anymore. My first husband and I moved back to New York after college and my parents were so in our lot. Me, my mother was so in our life that we finally just realized we had to leave. I knew I couldn't live in the same city, as she did.

But my feeling, my sense, when I would go home, I would go home to New York. And as I was knocking on the door, I would have this feeling that when the door opened I would turn back into a year old little Ruthie again. You know and that I would be right back where I was and it's why I had to keep her out of my life. Right. And then there was a time when I could open that door and walk in as me and stay you and stay me and be the competent grown up person that I was.

And when did your mom pass? I was in my mid 40s when she passed. And then your dad after that? Oh no, he died earlier. Oh, he died earlier. Were you in charge of taking care of her? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. When I was at the LA Times, my mother would call me like 12 times a day.

Okay. And she would say things like, there's no food in the house. You have to come to New York and go buy me food. And I'd say, mom, the Jefferson Market Deliverers called them up. So was she, she was battling her mental health illness even to the very end, right? Or was she a little more stable? No, she had a period of stability and I could tell you how that ended, but it's so tragic I won't. But she did have a few wonderful years. Oh, that's nice. As an old person, really wonderful years, where she was, you know, where we would all like to be, which is like halfway into the first martini. She was just a little bit high. Uh-huh. And she could stay there.

Stay right there. She stayed right there. Oh, wow. Since I've been somebody who's been on the receiving end of criticism, negative and pot. Yeah. And positive. How did you reconcile your power as a critic? How do you come to terms with that yourself? I kept a photograph of a young couple on my bulletin board, which I looked at it every day when I was writing reviews. And I imagined that they were people who didn't have very much money and they saved up all year to go out for one great meal on their anniversary. And I imagine every time I was tempted to hedge my bets and say something nicer to hedge my bets and say something nicer than I really felt a bad restaurant. I would look at them and think,

they're gonna go there because you said that. And they kept me honest. So you felt an obligation to the consumers out there. I did. I mean, I felt like, you know, that's who I'm writing for. That's who's paying me. And, you know, I'm sorry if, you know, that's who I'm writing for. That's who's paying me. And, you know, I'm sorry if, you know, my reviews hurt people.

On the other hand, you know, most restaurants want to be reviewed. Yeah. And I have to tell the truth. And if I can't do that, I shouldn't be doing this job. Those reviews really, they have an impact. Oh, yeah.

And, you know, I mean, it's an impact. Oh, yeah. And, you know, I mean, it's unfortunate because people love bad reviews. I mean, people really, the consumers love to read those, you know, these are really nasty reviews. And it's easier to write nasty reviews than it is good ones, you know. I mean, you can be very funny writing mean reviews. But, you know, the real obligation is to the consumer. And the other obligation is to the people who are really talented and who run restaurants and work really hard.

And it's not fair to them if you're saying that someone who's only doing a mediocre job is better than they really are. Right. I'm glad I don't have to do it anymore. I'm really glad. That's a lot of, that's a different hat, isn't it? It's a different hat and it's, I don't think a particularly fun one.

And I should say that when I started writing reviews, it was a very different time. You know, I mean, chefs didn't have PR people. Yeah. They weren't celebrities for the most part. They weren't celebrities. And it was a much easier time. And then, sort of halfway through my career, that old shifted. And then I started wearing the disguises. And, you know, I mean, when when I got to New York I really was the enemy. I mean... Did you wear a wig? I wore many wigs.

Oh my god. I did you take pictures of yourself? There are a few pictures. I mean mostly I didn't because I didn't want them floating around out there. Yeah. The best disguise I ever had was as my mother. Yeah. Because I had her clothes and And I had all her jewelry.

And I got this, my mother had short gray hair. Yeah. And I got this short gray wig. And I took a picture and sent it to my brother. And I had never thought I looked like my mother. But Bob's response was, I've never seen that picture of mom before. No, really. Yeah. And I really looked like her. And then I behaved like her and it was weird. Really? Yeah. It was very, I mean, my mother was, I mean, like, I am a person who, in my real life, I have never sent anything back in my life.

I mean, I just don't do that. Wait a minute. You mean, you don't send food back? If it comes and there's like, I don't do that. Wait a minute. You mean you don't send food back? If it comes and there's like, I don't, lots of hair and things and that. I've never gotten lots of hair. Well, I'm trying to think of the worst case scenario, you know, or bugs or something, you just won't.

I don't. I'm, you know, I am not a squeaky will in real life. I'm just not. My mother, on the other hand, sent everything back. The drink wasn't cold enough. The soup wasn't hot enough. Whatever it was, it went back. And you were dying. And I was dying. My father and I were both dying while mom was sending this stuff back. And so there I was, being mother and you know, empiriously sending everything back was kind of fun. You're very direct though, Ruth. You may not be a squeaky wheel, but what impresses

me about you is how direct you are. I know. It's odd. I mean, I don't think of myself as direct, but I know I am. No, you are. I am. Yeah. In a way I like very much. I am not a complainer. I say, I'm just, you know, if someone says to me, how was it? I will say, it really wasn't very good. Yeah. There was a lot of hair and bugs in it. There were bugs. What about this big piece of glass?

I had to go to the ER afterwards. Oh, my God. In your business, you've worked in a world where people can be incredibly misbehaved and entitled, how have you managed to navigate these douchebags? By the way, I work in a world that's similar to that too. I'm wondering, how do you think you've done that? I don't know. Being a condinast was really something,

because you want to talk about entitled people. Oh my God. I mean, the stories that the drivers would tell you about, what happened in their cars, what people did to their cars. Really? I think I was part of the only editor at Conde Ness who took the subway.

And I once had the great joy of making my publisher come on the subway with me. Lou, Si, new house name? Not Si, no, no. His nephew's wife was my first publisher. We were somewhere and there was traffic. And I said, oh, come on, let's just take the subway. And she was like, oh my God, you expect me to take the subway?

And you made her do it. And I made her do it. I said, you know, okay, you know, we can take the subway, it'll take 10 minutes, or we can wait for your stupid car to come, and it'll be an hour. Right. I don't want to waste an hour. So she very reluctantly came down into the subway with me.

But they were just to be a real objectless. Because when I got to Condé Nast, one I thought this is not the rest of my life. At some point I'm going to get fired. As every everybody at Condondaynast gets fired eventually. And so I better not get used to being a princess fancy. I'm not going to be a princess my whole life. So why do it now? Why even get used to it? And so I was very aware of the fact that this was not real life. It was not my life. I didn't want to do that, I didn't want to be that person, I didn't want to be any of those people. They made me sick, they really did.

So that's how you navigated them. Yeah. You paid no attention to them. Yeah, yeah. In that sense. Yeah. I like that. You know, I mean, one of my favorite moments that Gourmet was I sent two of my people off to do a story about this halal butcher

where he chose your own goat. And then they blessed the goat and killed it in front of you. And they come back to the magazine and carrying this warm goat in a big plastic bag. And they run into the office. And there's an elevator door that's just closing and they rush in with this bag of freaking goat and Anna Winter is in there. I'm just going to say please tell me Anna Winter was in there. Anna Winter was in there. And they said she was just so horrified. She backed into the corner. You know, nobody was supposed to even get in the elevator with her.

She was in the elevator, she was supposed to wait for the next one. That's hilarious, but nobody said anything about a goat carcass coming in the elevator. Exactly. They said other people, but not a goat carcass. Not a goat carcass. That is a great story. I love that. God damn it. I wish we had a, like my dad used to say, I wish he had an oil painting of that moment. Oh shit.

We'll get more wisdom from Ruth Ryshell after this super quick break. Stay tuned. The Apple Books app is a single destination for all the books and audiobooks you love, all subscription free. And now Apple Books is teamed up with Lemonade Media for an audiobook club. Every month, a thought-provoking audiobook and its author are featured. The June Pick is Honey Baby Mine, a mother and daughter talk life, death, love, and banana pudding by actress and activist Laura Dern and her mother legendary actress,

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How did you relax? Have you been able to relax about your body and the idea of gaining or losing weight? Or is that still very present in your life? I would say a little bit of both. You know, I did have this remarkable experience of meeting a man who I then married, who likes big women. And so for the first time in my life, that little voice that said, don't eat that, don't eat that. And that little voice that seems to me makes you just eat more. You know, the more you look at something and think I shouldn't eat that, don't eat that. And that little voice it seems to me, makes you just eat more.

The more you look at something and think, I shouldn't eat that. Yes. We started living together and that voice went away. And my experience of this, I don't know if it's true, but my experience of it was that I woke up one morning and I had lost 35 pounds. And it was just because I had stopped obsessing about it.

The relationship between food and women in particular is so fraught and in a way that is completely unjust and I certainly battled my weight when I was younger and I always felt sort of like this dumpy person as a youth. I felt kind of, you know, once I became a teenager and I was uncomfortable with weight and I over ate, I was an overeater to a certain extent. But as I've gotten older and maybe there's something about having kids too, I don't know. The relationship that I had with food has changed

dramatically in a way that I'm relieved by, you know, really relieved. Yeah, I mean, the thing about weight is it's also about, are you pretty? I know. Which is so important when you're young. And, you know, I just kept hearing over and over again. You just, you'd be so pretty if you just lose some weight. Right. And my mother, you know, got me to smoke when I was 12 because, you know, if you smoke, you won't eat. Oh, Lord Jesus. You know, for me, the big lesson was don't say no. And, you know, if I feel like I can always eat anything,

that the no isn't there, then I don't have a problem. Oh, my God. Do I agree with that? That's why, in this very drawer of the death that I'm talking to you on, it's my chocolate drawer. I love chocolate. And I have a piece of chocolate every single day. And that's a game changer. Exactly.

Let's talk about that transition for you becoming the editor at Gourmet. You had never edited a magazine before and I've pretty, I don't know, what can we say it was at the time, Tony? It was a Bible, it was like, it was like the American Food Bible. How did you make that kind of leap? Because I think you were a little fearful of it, yeah?

No, I was very fearful of it. I mean, because I didn't think I knew how to do it. How I made the leap was two ways. One was an older woman, a friend of mine, and I said, you know, Paul, I would love to do this, but I'm not quite ready yet. You know, maybe in a year or so it would be the right job. And Paul said, Ruth, it's never the right time.

You have to take the opportunities when they come along. If you don't take it, it won't come again. So just do it. The other piece of it was, and this is probably the best advice I have to give anyone. Oh, goody. It's the things that frighten you. That are the things that you have to do. Oh, God. When something really scares you, you know that you have to do. Oh, God. When something really scares you, you know, you have to do it. And, you know, it's like every, every scary thing, I mean, running the David Foster Wallace piece was terrifying, which was why I knew that there was no way

I could walk away from it. The first major review, the review I'm known for, which is the One of Les Serc, where I wrote it in two takes, one is myself and one is a person in disguise. I thought I was gonna get fired for writing that piece. I mean, I didn't sleep for two nights before that piece was printed.

Really? I was so frightened that I was convinced that I hadn't ever been to the restaurant. I mean, I made myself so crazy that I thought I'd made the whole thing up. But wait a minute, for those who are listening, can you describe... So it was two different pieces that real-time... No, it was one piece, but I said, Lasurka's two different restaurants, depending on who you are. So I went many times in disguise and they treated me like dirt.

And then the last time that I went, I didn't go into, I didn't make the reservation in my own name, but I didn't go into skies. And I knew he had a picture of me. And sure enough, the owner sees me and I went with my nephew who was working on Wallstream. I got him to make the reservation and he said, well, I could only get a 930. I said, OK, let's go at 8. See what happens. We walk in at 8.

There's this huge group of people waiting for a table. The owner, Cereo, sees me. He parts them like the Red Sea, takes my hand, pulls me forward and says, the king of Spain is waiting in the bar, but your table is ready. Oh my God. Oh my God. And I said to my nephew, oh, yeah, the king was Spain is waiting in the bar. And he turns around and he goes, he is waiting in the bar.

I saw him on TV last night. Oh my God. I can't get over this. Okay. So then he says, can we make you a menu? And there's white truffles and black truffles and champagne. And they give us a table for the two of us. And so I write, this is what happens if you're the restaurant critic of New York Times. But if you're just restaurant critic of the New York Times. But if you're just an ordinary person going there,

don't think they're gonna be very nice to you because they aren't. You're looking at that picture of the couple. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so go ahead. So nobody had ever done anything like that. And nobody at the New York Times had ever done anything like that.

And I knew that my editors were really nervous. And I wasn't quite sure why they were so nervous, but I could feel it. And I knew that it had gone all the way up, that the editor in chief had read the, and he didn't read, they had vetted it with him. And the next day I found out that it was the publisher, a Punches, Soulser's favorite restaurant, and that they really were terrified. Wow. My editor later called me, and I wish some nervous, I couldn't even pick up my messages the next day.

I waited until like four o'clock in the afternoon to actually listen to my messages, because I knew, yeah, I didn't go into the office. I was just, and the first message of the day was for my editor who said, well, everything is fine because the first phone call that punch got this morning was from Walter Ann & Burke, a very big deal, Walter Ann & Burke.

You said, who called Punch and said, that's the best review the Times has ever run, because apparently he had once gone there and not been recognized and been treated not dark. It's incredible. So what did this experience teach you? Well, again, when something frightens you, you have to do it. It's worth doing.

And you know, that you always have to push the envelope that it's really important to have new experiences. And the other part of that is, and this is the other big piece of advice I have to give people, is the only thing that really keeps you young is constantly doing things you don't know how to do. If you spend your whole life doing things you already know how to do, you get old fast. The one thing that I've realized doing this crazy S-podcast, talking to older women, is the subject of endings. That subject comes up a lot in conversation.

How do you deal with endings in your life? Be it jobs, which I know you've had multiple endings on and marriage and losing people that are close to you. I mean, I think I know the answer to this, but I'd be curious to hear your take on it. How have you gotten through big, shifting endings, if you have? Well, you know, I go into the kitchen. You know, I mean, that's sort of where when I'm really in a bad place, I just start cooking. And it focuses me. It's a meditation.

It's a meditation. And you know, it reminds me that I'm lucky to still be alive. And I think the only way to honor the memory of the people you love is to just live your life to the fullest. And going into the kitchen sort of reminds me of that. It's like being around all the aromas and the wonderful tactile sense and slicing. And it sort of brings me back to into the world. Can I ask you a really selfish question? Because when I was reading your my kitchen year, you know your recipe for pound cake. Uh-huh.

So I'm going to make that one as soon as I get home. But I was thinking I might add orange to it. Oh, yes. You like that? I do. to make that one as soon as I get home. But I was thinking I might add orange to it. Oh, yes. You like that? I do. I love that. And so would you add like a tablespoon of orange zest? I was thinking maybe like a tablespoon of orange zest

and maybe half a cup of orange juice because we have orange trees. So I could use our oranges. Well, I would certainly add, you know, the zest of one large orange. I'm not, I have to look at that recipe because I'm not sure what orange juice would do to it.

The acid may change the balance. Uh-huh. I would start by just using zest. Okay. And not juice. Okay. I'm pulling out the book for those who are listening because, and I have to make those eggs in the potato of Jesus.

I, you're making me hungry, woman. This is so much fun. I can't tell you how much fun I'm having talking to you. And I'm going to be in LA for three months this year. So, oh yeah. So speaking of which, so I was hoping maybe I could get you guys to come up to Santa Barbara.

You could come up and I was about to say, I'll cook for you, but maybe we could cook together. We'll cook together. Yeah. You want to? Sure. I would love to. I would love to. Okay.

Great. All right. Now I'm already freaking out thinking about what we're going to have. Don't freak out. Don't freak out. Hey, can I ask you something? Do you remember when we were at our mutual friends' house having dinner and I brought a key lime pie? Did you hate it? No, I love key lime pie. It was a great key lime pie. Why would I hate it? I don't know. I was worried. I

wasn't sure. I am not a big sweets person. That may be it. So I don't, I mean, I never eat a lot of sweet things, although I have to say, I've pretty much devoured your really wonderful Marmalade. Oh, well guess what? You are getting so much more of it. It is so delicious. We can make it when you come. If we've got oranges and season, that would be fun to do too. That would be great. But can I just, I am not a chef. I mean, I'm not a train chef. I'm just a person who likes to cook. Okay. I mean, you know, I hear you.

I hear you. And I did, you know, I was part, I had a restaurant, but it was a collective. We all did everything. So sometimes I was the chef and sometimes I was the dishwasher. Okay, got it. So you're a dishwasher. I could use the dishwasher and sometimes I was the dishwasher. Okay, got it. So you're a dishwasher. I could use a dishwasher.

I'm a good dishwasher. And I even like washing dishes. Do you really? I do. Well, if you're good at it, I will. I, you are employed, but if you're not, I'm going to have 100% fire you. Okay. So now there's just, I'm going to ask you a couple more little really quick questions.

Tell me something that you would go back and tell yourself at the age of 21, if you could. You will be happy. Oh, that's a good one. Is there something you go back and say yes to? I don't think I've ever turned down anything that I wish I hadn't. No. Oh, how nice. Is there something that you wish you'd spent less time on?

Not really. I mean, I'm sorry to say this, but I don't have a lot of regrets. I was just going to say, you're not a regretful person. And so, what are you learning now? What am I learning now? I've actually been trying to do a whole bunch of new things now. Yeah. You know, I mean, right after I left gourmet, I wrote a novel mostly because I thought,

I don't know how to do this. So let me see if I can. Yeah. And I've just turned in a new one. And let me say it gets easier the second time and much more fun. I mean, one of the things I've learned with that is I find writing very difficult. It is difficult. I like having written, but writing itself is often awful.

I did not find writing this novel difficult. I found it pure pleasure, just a joy. Huh. What do you attribute that to? I don't know, but my agent said you're never allowed to write anything you do that isn't fun again. Interesting. To have been writing professionally for what,

50 some years, and suddenly find out that even the act of writing can be fun. Wow, amazing. Thank you, Ruth. This was so much fun. I feel like, you know, I could just sit here all afternoon. I know, I feel the same. I feel like this is a conversation to be continued, which you and I can do between us.

But this has been very kind of you to be so honest and open and near just an inspiration and on so many different levels to me and I know to others, of course. Oh, thanks. Really fun for me. And I'll see you. I'll see to others of course. Oh, thanks. Oh, really fun for me and I'll see you. I'll see you in a while. Yeah, please. Yeah, love it. OK.

Thank you. OK, bye. Bye. Oh my God. I just agreed to cook for Ruth Rysal. Why the fuck did I do that? Oh my god. I need to ask my mom what to make. I gotta call my mom.

Hi, honey. Hi, mommy. How are you? All is well, all is well. And how about you? Everything is great. I mean, tons to catch up on. I want to tell you about my call with Ruth Ryshel,

because mom, I wish you could have been in the conversation with us. You would have been so delighted to talk to her. You're cut from the same cloth in many ways. It was incredible. Well, first of all, I'm glad you know how to pronounce your name because I've always called it Ruth Rikles. I know.

So it's right. I know. It's right. It's right. Exactly. But the same cloth, can you put that on my tombstone? Yes. Exactly. No, no, I'm not kidding.

That makes me feel better about how I boil eggs and everything. Yeah. Every time I boil a egg, now I'm going to say, this is exactly what the way that Ruth would have done. Right, exactly. God, I have so much to tell you. So first of all, she was talking about growing up in the fifties and she said American food was a complete joke in the fifties. And so I was remembering what you said about Dee Dee,

my grandma Dee Dee, and her mom, because great grandma Bessie grew her food and canned her food and your mom's reaction to that, she thought that was appalling. It was true, and also I think it's a reaction against, you know, in other words, I think my mom's reaction was, she saw her mother in the kitchen all the time doing all this stuff, all about meals. And mother's generation, who was, there were more flappers and they wanted to have some fun.

So frozen foods and canned foods and dresses that weren't homemade, and I do think that the generation of my mother, my mother's thing of the frozen foods and the canned foods was terrible food. And my mother used to make baked beans, but what she did was just she opened the can and dumped it and then she put a lot of brown sugar in it. And that was our baked beans. And then there were our gelatin molds also. Which, by the way, have been underrated, because I have to say it's a great thing to make. Perhaps when you come to visit next, we'll make it.

I will say I find the notion of it repulsive, but I'm happy to try it. So this is another thing that she was talking about. She talks about food and the making of food as a meditation. When she is sort of at her lowest, she goes into the kitchen and that's been a sort of a savior to her and it's an interesting thing because certainly in our lives together when there have been challenges and we've had a few, we often talk about what we're going to make.

Absolutely. And I remember at 9-11 that we sat watching that picture over and over again. And I remember feeling that the bottom had dropped out of everything. And then I thought, oh my gosh, it's Matt Zartman's birthday. And so I called Ellie and I said, what are you doing for Mattie's birthday? And she said, well, we're going to go grab for dinner, but of course, we're not now.

I said, oh, Ellie, please, please, please come over here. And she said, great. So I made a meatloaf and mashed potatoes and green beans and apple sauce and angel food cake. I mean, they're cooking and it was like there is a tomorrow. There is something to live for. Yeah, very important. Well, speaking of that, mom,

so she and her husband, Michael, are coming to LA. They're gonna be there for a couple of months. And so I said, oh my God, I have to have you up to Santa Barbara. And I said, and we can, and then I immediately I'm thinking, oh shit, when am I gonna cook? And I said, well, we can, I said, I can cook and she said, we can cook together. And I said, yeah.

Okay. Okay. Oh, my God. Oh my God. I know, yeah. So you have to start thinking, mom, what can I make, put your thinking cap on and report back to me. We have to think about that.

Oh gosh. I know. That is going to be priceless. That's going to be absolutely priceless. Yeah, I know. I'm excited. And she remembered. I did give her orange marmalade last year

because we had dinner with Jim and Carlene. And I gave her orange marmalade. And she remembered and was saying how much she loved it. So needless to say, she's going to get a case of that fucking marmalade when I see her next. Well, no, no, not a case, a half a case. Alright, half a case. I know you get the other half, mommy. You get the other half. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, yeah. By the way, making the marmalade, how about that? That is such a precious thing to do.

You have the oranges right there and they grow out of your actual soil. And then you get them and then you do them. And it's the best marmalade in the world. It's pretty good, but you know, grandma, DD would not approve, but that's fine. We brought it back around to the real thing. That's right.

That's right. That's right. It wasn't frozen, it wasn't bird's eye, but it wasn't bird's eye. We'll get over it. Oh shit. Okay, love you, mommy. I love you. Talk to you later. Okay, bye. Bye. There's more Wiser than me with Lemonada Premium. Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content, subscribe now and Apple Podcasts. Wiser than me is a production of Lemonada Media created and hosted by me, Julia Louis Dreyfus.

The show is produced by Chrissy Pease, Alex McCohen, and O'Hall Opez. Brad Hall is a consulting producer. Our senior editor is Tracy Clayton. Rachel Neal is our senior director of new content and our VP of Weekly Production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Stephanie Widdle's Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer, Paula Kaplan, and me.

The show is mixed by Kat Yor and Johnny Vins Evans and Music by Henry Hall. Special thanks to Charlotte Christmas Cohen, Ivan Kriyev, and of course my mother Judith Boles. Follow Wiser than me wherever you get your podcasts and hey if there's an old lady in your life, listen up. Hey, why's there the me listeners? We want to hear from you. By just answering a few questions on our listener survey, you can share feedback about show content you'd like to see in the future and help us think about what brands would serve you best.

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