Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus - Listen Again: Julia Gets Wise with Darlene Love

Episode Date: December 31, 2025

Christmas may be over, but we're still playing "Christmas (Baby Please Come Home)" on repeat, so let's take the opportunity to listen back to Julia's conversation with the Queen of Christmas herself, Darlene Love.   This week on Wiser Than Me, Julia is joined by 84-year-old Rock and Roll Hall of Fame singer Darlene Love. From her early days singing gospel music in her father’s church to backing up icons like Elvis Presley to finally going solo at age 40, Darlene is a case study in never giving up on your dreams. She tells Julia about raising her sons while building her career, how to balance being strong and kind, and what motivates her to give her best performances. And Julia shares a story with her mom Judith about getting the wrong kind of laugh on the set of Hannah and Her Sisters.   Follow Wiser Than Me on Instagram and TikTok @wiserthanme and on Facebook at facebook.com/wiserthanmepodcast.   Keep up with Darlene Love @darlenelovesings on Instagram.   Find out more about other shows on our network at @lemonadamedia on all social platforms.   Joining Lemonada Premium is a great way to support our show and get bonus content. Subscribe today by hitting 'Subscribe' on Apple Podcasts or lemonadapremium.com for any other app.   For exclusive discount codes and more information about our sponsors, visit https://lemonadamedia.com/sponsors/.    For additional resources, information, and a transcript of the episode, visit lemonadamedia.com.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

It seems like everyone's shouting protein from the rooftops lately, and that's fair. It really does maintain your muscles, and protein is a great way to recover after a hike or a run. But let's be honest, meeting your protein needs shouldn't require you to consume another sad, unseasoned chicken breast. Ratio protein yogurt has 25 grams of protein per cup. That's more than four whole eggs. Not only is it packed with protein, but ratio protein has a smooth, and creamy texture, so there's no need to compromise great taste when hitting your goals. And get this, ratio proteins, 25 grams of protein, is the most protein per cup in the yogurt

aisle, plus zero added sugar. This helps you get the fuel you need to power through your day. Ratio does the math, so you don't have to. Head to ratiofood.com to find a retailer near you. Hey, it's me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. We are officially back with a brand new season of Wiser Than Me. To celebrate your out-of-this-world support for our show, we've been brewing up something special. A Wiser Than Me Mir traveler. It's a versatile, sustainable travel mug to keep your coffee hot and your tea cozy all year round. It's perfect for wise women on the go.

Head over to wiser than me shop.com to grab yours now. Okay, here's the show. Lemonada. I love singing. I took singing lessons, all through middle and upper school. I was in the Glee Club. I was a really good mezzo-soprano,

and I always love singing in a group. I still do. When I was pretty little, junior high, I think, we had a big voice recital with the sizable audience, you know, and I was meant to sing, two songs, two solos in the recital. The first one was one of those awful Victorian parlor

songs called Bendamere's Stream. I had spent many months rehearsing it and on opening night I got on stage and I started to sing. There's a bower of roses by Bendamere's stream. And the next line goes, and the nightingale sings round it all the day long. But I never got to that second line, okay? Because my mind went totally blank, and I couldn't remember anything. So, I just kept repeating that line. There's a bower of roses on Bendemir stream. There's a bower of roses by Bendemir stream over and over for the rest of the song.

I am telling you, it was so awful. I'm making myself sick telling the story. story. It was the first time I'd ever experience anything like that, a real, truly botched performance. And I mean, I love to perform, but I just froze, man. It was devastating. But here's the deal. See, I still had to sing my other song, which was far from the home I love from Fiddler on the roof. And I'm going to tell you something. It was the most magnificent performance I have ever given because I was so upset. about fucking up, Bendermeer's stream. I was bawling the entire time I was singing my second song, Far from the Home I Love. How can I hope to make you understand why I do what I do? And I'm weeping and I'm weeping.

Far from the home I love. And tears are just like running down my cheeks. I could barely get words out, but the tune was coming. And I mean, I'm telling you, Everybody was cheering. They think I'm a musical theater genius who can, on command, summon the emotions needed for fiddler on the roof. So that's what happens to me singing in front of people. I go blank. I don't get it, okay? I love singing. I love music. I have a pretty decent voice. I really do. But this has happened to me now a number of times, only in front of people,

Okay, I'm fine in a studio or in a group, but when there are a lot of people, God damn it. So I work with the NRDC, which is the Natural Resources Defense Council, and recently there was this big NRDC event. And Carol King was performing, and I was hosting or something. And Carol King had the idea that I should come out with Jewel, actually, and we would all say, sing a couple of stanzas of this land is your land together. Okay, so I'm standing off stage, I'm

holding the microphone, ready to come out and sing with the glorious Carol King, which is a dream come true of course, and right before I went out, I got so frightened, I suddenly developed a fever. Easily 102.

And I remember thinking, wow, my God, I have a proper fever. You know, I'm sweating, I'm shaking. I had this horrible high fever. And out I go with Jewel. And I swear to you, I don't remember a goddamn thing. Nothing. I blacked out. My husband tells me it went great, but I mean, seriously, I have absolutely no reason to believe him. So I tell all of these stories on myself, not just to scare away musical producers. And I do want to say that I think with a little rehearsal, you guys and perhaps some medication, I would absolutely figure this out. But I bring it up because

it's ironic. Because to me, there's nothing more joyful in the world than singing than music. And I wish there were a way I could be a part of a glee club again. I mean, that'll never happen. I often thought maybe I should join a church so I could sing in the choir. But I really, honestly, I don't want to join a church or a choir. But I would like to be able to sing. I think it's just the most human primal, wonderful thing. And when you hear a great singer, oh my God, you can't believe what you're hearing. It's just transcendent. Any kind of singer, an opera singer, a jazz singer, rock and roll singer. When it's good, it's magic. And for me, what really tops it all is gospel and soul. There is nothing like it. And that's why today I'm talking to Darlene Love.

Hi, I'm Julia Louis Dreyfus, and this is Wiser Than Me, a show where each week I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. Can you imagine being in the studio singing with Elvis Presley and Sam Cook and Dion Warwick, the Beach Boys, and Aretha Franklin? Sharing the stage with Tom Jones and the boss himself, Bruce Springsteen, and being the singer that even Mariah Carey calls the real queen of Christmas. How about being one of Rolling Stones' 100 greatest singers? That's Darlene Love. When I saw the documentary 20 feet from stardom, which so beautifully captures the triumphs and hardships of some of the most important yet most unknown voices in pop music, I made it a bucket list item to meet and talk to the one and only darling love.

I've stalked her on Instagram ever since, and she can rock the hell out of a red jumpsuit. She's spent six decades being an artist in the roughest of all of the arts, popular music. She's made spectacular art in an industry that is exceptionally brutal and has always undervalued women of color. She's a mother, an author, and a rock and roll hall of famer. She's been through it all, and she's still standing and still singing. She's Darlene Love, and she is so much wiser than me. Welcome, wonderful Darlene. Hi there. How are you?

I'm so good. I'm so glad to see you. Hey, are you comfortable if I say your real age? Oh, everybody else does. Go right ahead. Tell me, what is it? I will be 82 in a few months. July, I'll be 82. Well, happy birthday in advance. How old do you feel? Do you feel your age? You know what? I feel younger than my children and my oldest son is 62. I'm looking at you. I have to say, what deal have you made with the devil? You look so incredible. Not with him. That's who I don't make no deals with. No. So do you love being your

age? I really do. I didn't feel my age until my son turned 60. Yes. I went like, when did you turn 60? How did that happen? Yeah. But I don't feel my age and I don't think I ever have because I've never had a problem with age. I feel as good or if not better than I did when I was like in my 20s and 30s. No kidding. Why is that? I think it's because I have so much energy, but I was always like my father. My father was a minister and he was always on time and always come on you guys. I'm waiting on you. I'm ready to go. When I wake up in the morning, I do everything in a hurry. And I've always been like that.

And I think that's what it is. And I still have that same get up and go. Everybody has trouble keeping up with me. Even my husband, he says, let's go for a walk. But when I say, let's go for a walk, I don't mean a little trot, you know, let's walk. Yeah, so you're physically active. Yes, I still get up at 5.30 in the morning and do a kickboxing class. Four days a week.

Really? Yes. Really? Really. And I'm the oldest one in the class. Of course. The class are adult ladies who are physically in pretty good shape. And I think I'm at least 20 years older than everybody in the class.

But now everybody's just trying to keep up with me. I love that. I said, all right, you guys. You know what I think? I think Marvel should put you in the Marvel universe. I think you should be a superhero. I do. That would be fun. Yes. It would be incredible. So who is a gospel superhero for you? I mean, you started in gospel when you were basically a kid, right?

I knew everything there was about gospel because we grew up gospel. I was with Aretha Franklin when she was 16 years old traveling with her father. We went to the churches to hear her saying, you know what I'm saying, when her dad was there. So we knew about Aretha Franklin. Were you in awe of her voice? From day one. Yeah. But I never thought she, now listen to this one, I never thought she'd be a successful secular singer. Why?

I just didn't think she wanted to be. Oh, it was something about her that she and her head wanted to stay in gospel. Because how we were all grew up, you know what I'm saying? Use your voice for the Lord. Right. That's who you should be singing for. And all of those kind of make you not want to jump over. But I had two of my greatest people that I love who were gospel singers.

Aretha Franklin and Sam Cook, I mean, it don't get no better than that. No, you certainly do not. He came straight out of gospel and went into secular music. You know what I'm saying? Aretha didn't. She slowly got into secular music because she was with her father. That was probably a heavier cross than she knew she was going to have to bear. Because church people just have this thing in them about who you should.

should work for. But I knew I was not going to be a gospel singer. I knew I was going to be a secular singer when nobody else knew it. Plus, I came from a background, what we call Pentecostal, where they did not listen to that kind of music. They called that the devil's music. And my father was a bishop in the organization. We had so much respect for our parents back in those days. Yes. I didn't really want to go against what he said or didn't want to go against what he believed.

But he also believed that it was nothing really wrong with what I was doing. But the organization, it's just like any kind of organization that you would you have to go along with what they say and what they do and how they do it. When my father was the same way.

So he could not just openly sing, you can sing rock and roll music if you want to. Just go ahead on out there and do it. But he would say that privately, go ahead, sweetheart, you can do it. And what about your mom? Was she a little more hesitant for you to do this? Yes, because my mother was a missionary in church. She was the first lady.

You know, so she had to be more reserved than my father. Let me tell you something. I really believe this. God help me. But the men is going to always do what he wants to do. Yeah. Whether he's the preacher, whether he's the pastor, or whatever he is. But the woman always have to be in her place. In second position. Yes. It's gotten

a hundred times better today than it ever was. But back in the day, they were like looked on as somebody that just sit in church with their hand gloves on, with their little hat on, and their person just sit there and be cute and not say anything. I know that you had two marriages that ended in divorce and given the fact that you came from this community, was that particularly difficult? Oh, I was going straight to hell. Oh, gosh. Really? If your husband is still alive, you cannot remarry. And were your parents supportive?

My father used to say to me, and I said, well, I guess I'm going hell because I'm getting remarried. He said, don't you ever say that again? You're not going to go to hell because you remarried. Wow. So once he said that, whether he said it to me in confidence or when we were just having a personal conversation, that stuck with me. I'm not going to hell because I'm, I remarried. Oh, we had a pastor one time that we say, well, what I should have did was kill the old girl

because they'll forgive you that and didn't marry somebody else afterwards. No. Well, they'll forgive you for murder, but they won't forgive you for remarrying. That's crazy. Crazy. Boy, we have your daddy to thank for a lot. Yes, we do. Yes, we do.

What a great man. Yes, yes, yes. They even, when I was working with Tom Jones as a backup singer and with Dionne Warwick as a backup singer in Las Vegas, my mother and father would come to those shows. They wouldn't tell anybody they were there, but they came to those shows to see their daughter. They were very proud of me the things that I were doing. And let's see, the thing about background, I loved singing background. That was so breathtaking for me to be a background singer for Elvis and for, you know, Tom, Jones. Jones and Dion. I worked for Dionne Work for 10 years. My goodness. So being around her was like

great for me to see a superstar work and what her habits were. You know what I'm saying? So, but I saw all that and I admired her from, you know, from a distance. Because when I got with her, she was still climbing. She had reached her goal, but she was still, you know, still things she wanted to do you know she was a champion of doing what a woman she thought a woman should be able to do you know beyond where they think you should go because a lot of times in our career they think okay you can have a little success but wait a minute now you can't get ahead of us who's us the men men in our business uh-huh you know they controlled everything yeah you know they made you who you, they were the producers and the directors and all of those people in

our business. Well, most of them still are. Still, I know. Did she give you advice, specific career advice, Dion? The one thing she told me one time, don't let people stop you from being who you are. Mm-hmm. And I always remember that. You know, because there were a lot of people that, you know, well, you're a background singer, but you could never be a solo. artists, you know, and why not? I still have a, the solo voices in me. I just enjoy doing background. It was wonderful because I got to see what happens like in the movie, 20 feet from stardom. You see everything. I know, you really do. Everything. And you see, you know, it's something that I want to talk to you about because in the movie I'm so struck, well,

let me tell you a couple things I'm struck by. First of all, the scene in the movie, when you sing, lean on me. And the camera catches you, because you're a very, a bullion, cheerful, I mean, when I'm picking up, you emanate positivity, you have a smile on your face. But when you're seeing that song, I see you pulling from a deep place. And that's why your performance is so gut-wrenchingly wonderful, I think. That's so true. Because you're not afraid to go there as a performer. And it's breathtaking to me, breathtaking. And the messaging of that song is sort of, in a lot of ways, the messaging of the movie, lean on me when you're not strong and talking about all these background singers who have big dreams. And some of them fall shy of those dreams

and have to reconcile that. And I think that's really, because we both know, I certainly know in my career, plenty of people who didn't quite get what they want, and maybe they got some of what they want, but maybe not the whole thing. And it's so wonderful how life has worked out for you and that you came to stardom at the age of 40 and you've just been going ever since. But we know these people, both of us, that haven't had that kind of success. And I wonder, what do you say to them. I'm curious. Like, can you talk about that a little bit for people who, I don't know, they have to adapt. You have to be so strong, but also you have to be kind. Yeah. I don't know about everybody else, but I felt I had to be strong and let people know I am strong in what I do

on who I am and what I feel, but I also have to be kind to. I don't want to strangle them. to make them know this. I want them to see the kindness you have to have, too. Our business is so hard. I said, being entertainer, being a preacher, or being the president, or three things, you better be ready for. Because it's nothing easy about any of those. You know, you go through people telling you you've gotten too old.

You've got kids now. You probably need to be home now with your family. But I said, I haven't gotten to where I want to be yet. I still have time. I'm still alive. I want what I want because I have it in me to do it. Do you like to sing harmony? Oh, I love it. Yes, I love it. You have a total ear for it, do you not? I mean, in other words, you can harmonize without batting an eye. Honey, we used to laugh at Sunny Bono, who was one of my greatest friends, one of my greatest champions. Man, you are tone death, but I can harmonize with you.

And we had so much fun at sessions. Like when I was working with Elvis, it was just fun to be around him because he wanted to be one of you. Yeah. He didn't want to be Elvis. He just wanted to be like a background singer with you guys, you know. And most of the time, it was with gospel songs. And Elvis liked what we call the hymns of the church, you know, the old songs.

You know, bless precious Lord. Take my hand, lead me on, let me stand. And he loved all those songs. So he would go, do you know this one? He couldn't play it on the piano or the guitar, but he'd get one of his dyes. Play this song, you know. And we would stay up all night, half the night,

singing all these wonderful songs. By the way, you know, I was watching that special, the comeback special that you're on with the blossoms. And I have to say, the way you, the three of you women, negotiated those stairs. Do you remember this on the set coming down behind him? And you did not look down. Oh, no. And you had heels on. You had heels on. And that was like an Olympic athlete move, going down those stairs, singing, not falling. I was nervous thinking, oh, please don't trip. Please don't trip. It's amazing. We did that about 10 or 15 times. So, you know, by the time you had to do it that many times. You do look at first, you know, but after a while, you could feel that where the next step was going to be because it was with the beat.

And we weren't supposed to be seen in that special. Just sing and not be, you know, sing, not seen. Oh, really? Because it was a choir also along with us when we were doing the background. But I always went to the producer. So, no, no, no, no, no. I want the girls in this scene with me. No kidding.

He asked for us to be in that scene. So I thought that was great, too. Yeah, it's phenomenal. It was a lot of things that we did with stars that no other background singers did or got a chance to do. Like what else? You know, I mean, working with Sam Cook was wonderful. He came by my high school and picked me up and took me to a recording session with him that we were doing that day. He did not.

Me and my girlfriend is only one of us still alive, just two of us. And we talked about that the other day, talking about, remember that time he was. We went by your school and picked you up from school. And I was telling everybody at school, guess who's picking me up after school? Of course, they didn't believe it until they saw it. Because he was already Sam Cook at that point. Oh, yeah. Yeah, he'd already have you send me because we recorded, we're on everybody likes to cha, cha, cha.

Right. Everybody likes the cha cha, cha. Yeah. So we didn't, we were, and, you know, he had already had you send me. You know, so, you know, just the whole idea, it was Sam Cook. You've got to be kidding. You know, so we had a lot of wonderful times with the stars that we were working with and became friends with them.

Even today, Dion and I are still very close because our children were the same age. That's what made it really great because she could bring her kids on the road so mine could come along too. Of course you're close because you guys were similarly driven and also mothers and on the road. I mean, that kind of overlap doesn't happen frequently in life. That's amazing. And how lucky for you. No, you don't actually, being successful does not happen when you start off that way. Because it's hard.

It's really hard. You have to really believe you can do it and it's going to happen with you. I knew it was going to happen. I didn't know. I tell the Lord a lot of time I didn't think you're going to work until I got 45 to get this career moving. But here we are, and I'm still really enjoying it. Really am. It's time for a quick break, but don't worry, there's more with Darlene Love in just a bit.

Everywhere you look, someone's telling you the right way to get protein. tofu, chicken, salmon, powders, bars, shakes, even things like protein water. The options are endless and so is the noise. And honestly, most days, it's overwhelming. You just want something that's quick, reliable, and actually tastes good. That's where our sponsor, ratio protein, comes in. Ration protein yogurt has 25 grams of protein per cup. That's more protein than four eggs, making ratio the most protein per cup in the yogurt aisle all without our.

any added sugar. You're getting a complete protein with all nine essential amino acids, zero grams of added sugar, and the kind of fuel that helps your body build and repair cells and tissue, all in something you can grab and eat in seconds. And if you grab the 24-ounce tub, you can stretch it even further. Make it into yogurt dips, swirl it into your favorite recipes for a creamy kick, and round out your protein intake without any extra fuss. Unlike a lot of other options, ratio protein has a smooth and creamy texture, so there's no need to compromise great taste when hitting protein goals. Ratio does the math so you don't have to.

Head to ratiofood.com to find a retailer near you. Hey, Prime members. Did you know you can listen to Wiser Than Me ad-free on Amazon Music? Download the Amazon Music app today to start listening ad-free. Okay, I'm not going to talk about food waste this time. Promise. I'm going to talk about food resources. All that uneaten food that's lazing around the landfill, tooting out greenhouse gases, it could be put to work enriching our soil or feeding our chickens. It's a valuable resource because it's still food. And the easiest, and frankly, way coolest way to put all the all its nutrients to work is with the mill food recycler. Okay, it looks like an art house garbage can. You can just toss your scraps in it like a garbage can.

It's definitely not a garbage can. True, I'm a little bit obsessed. I actually even invested in this thing, but I'm not alone. Any mill owner just might corner you at a party and rhapsodize about how it's completely odorless and fully automated and how you can keep filling it for weeks. No joke. But the clincher is that you can depend on it for years. Mill is a serious machine. Think about a dishwasher, not a toaster. It's built by hand in North America and engineered by the guy who did your iPhone. But you kind of have to live with Mill to understand all the

love. That's why they offer a risk-free trial. Go to mill.com slash wiser for an exclusive offer. Talk about raising boys and having your career, and I heard this story when you had to take other jobs, when you're working in California, this is before you moved to New York, and you were a housekeeper, and you had your boys then, right? You had all three boys at that point? I had all three boys, yes. I loved my boys. They were beautiful. My last baby boy, he was the biggest one I had. He was 10 pounds. Okay, pull over. What are you saying? He was 10 pounds, yes. And he was the biggest, but I had big babies. My first child was 7 pounds, 14 ounces.

Yes. And then my middle one was 6 pounds, 8 ounces. So I had big boys. And you know how your doctor will tell her you know, you're going to have a big child here? And then I didn't know it was going to be 10 pounds. 10 pounds? That's a lot of baby to get out.

That's a two-month-old baby. You definitely need to go into the Marvel universe. You are a superhero. You do. Well, you know what? And I loved my boys. They never, they didn't give me trouble until they got older and would find it out about drugs and, you know, hanging out. And it got a little loose.

That one thing almost made me stop singing because I felt that I should be home, you know, trying to help them get through this. but I always say God didn't let me because I needed to do that for me you can only help your kids so much when you have taught them like I feel they were brought up the right way whatever the right way is for every parent that's what I thought I had did

all I know to do to keep them on the right track and then I was supporting you did you have your mom was anybody helping you with them my mom and my dad for a long time That's nice. But then I had to have the people that came in to live with me, a housekeeper who came to help me with the boys. And then the father's left because I got a divorce and there was just me, the housekeeper, and the boys. Yes.

You know, still had my mother and father, too. They were big champions for me for taking care of my boys. And then I had to go through my sons going to prison. Oh, I didn't know that. Oh, yeah. One of my sons went to present for kids. 12 years. Oh, my.

They were on that three-strike rule in California. No matter what you did, and most of the times it was about a weed, marijuana. You know, it wasn't like they killed somebody or they murdered somebody. It was weed. And this is while you're having your career? Yes, exactly. Wow. Only people that really knew that were those who were close to me, like Dionne Warwick knew,

Tom Jones, do it. Uh-huh. So we were all together as a family because everybody was having trouble with their children. You know what I'm saying? So they offered support? They were emotionally supportive to you? Very. You know, it's going to be, okay, do you need time off?

You know, you want to go home. I did go home for a little while, but that didn't help. You know, it just made me more, what's the word? Anxious? Yes. I can't do anything to help them. I can't get through with this. Tell me, is he okay now?

All of them are. They're great right now. That's what I mean. You know, like they strayed, but they also came back. You know, prison didn't get in them. And that's the most important thing. Because if they don't have a life to come to after they come out, they usually go back in. But they had support from me, their fathers, even though we were divorced, they still had their father.

You know, he took care of them too. And my mother and father. Thank God the last time they came out, they never went back. in. So they're great guys, you know, both of my sons have their own business. You know, my baby son was a schoolteacher, you know, and, you know, life has, now life is paying me off because I'm very comfortable about everything that's going on with my children. Matter of fact, they come and help me in my business. My son comes and drives, with the flying, especially now with the flying, I'm not so crazy about flying because of the pandemic and everything. He comes here

because my work is usually at Christmas time. Of course. That's when I work non-stop. But that's the only thing I've slowed down doing. Instead of doing five shows without a day off, I have a day off before and a day off after. So, you know, you still have to try to use a little sense about this. You know, I want to do it, but I want to do it 100%.

So I definitely have to take care of myself physically. But you did have a heart attack. Can you tell us about that? And what adjustments you've made in your life, if you have, since having had the heart attack? I'm a junk eater. I'm a chocoholic. Snickers. Any of the worst candy you can think of.

I remember, which each of my children, I ate a different candy. Like, yeah, it was crazy. You mean what you were pregnant? When I was pregnant, yes. And I would eat snickers. I don't mean I had one snicker and then I didn't have any for three or four days. I mean, I had three and four Snickers a day. Oh, my God.

I bought them by the box, like 24 in a box. I get to know everybody in my grocery store. And I started, I think what really did it is when I started drinking Carmel Machiatas. I was doing hairspray on Broadway. And the place was right down the street where you could go get them, right? Yeah. So every day I would go and get one every day. And on Wednesdays and Saturdays, I had to.

two. Because you had two shows. So for almost three years, I had that every day. I worked. Wow. And I think that's what gave me the heart attack. It finally, over the years of eating all the candy and all the sweets. Sugar. And all of that sugar. And the thing about it, when I had the heart attack, I didn't even know I was having it. I was on my way to work. And you continue to perform while having it. Am I right? Yes. That night. Yeah, my husband, thank God. He was in touch with the Holy Spirit and told him to stop and get an aspirin. He gave me the aspirin. I chewed it. The pain went away. I went to work, did the show, stayed at the show, signed autographs, the pictures, the whole bit. And that night, I said, yeah, my husband was

talking about the pain because I'd never had that kind of pain before. Wait a minute. What kind of pain was it that you were feeling? A stabbing pain. Where? Right smack dab exactly where your bra. If you have on a wire bra, that's exactly where it was. Got it. And I was sick all day. I had a stomach ache. Right. They're telling you years ago, if you're having a heart attack, it's your arm or whatever. By the way, I just want to point something out. Those are symptoms for men who are having a heart attack. Yes. Women having a heart attack, their symptoms present differently. And I love that that was, you know, the push. Everybody understood, well, I'm not having pain in my arm, so I'm fine. I'm fine. It's just a stomach or it's a cramp. Yes. Right? It was an uncomfortable feeling. Like you wanted to, whatever you had in your stomach, you wanted it to come out. And that's what I was having all day. Anything I would eat, even water would want to come back up. Wow. Went to the doctor the next day. I still didn't have any pain. But when he hooked me up to everything, he knew I was having a heart attack. He said, you're sure you're not feeling anything? I say, I feel no pain. I don't feel anything. So when he sent me to the specialist, which was literally right across the hall, he said, did you come by yourself? I said, no, my husband brought me. He said, go home, get a bag. I will meet you at the hospital at 10. We will be operating on you at 12. And I'm going, what? Wait a minute. What's going? Now I'm really wanting to have a heart attack because what are you talking about here?

This is not how you have a heart attack. I mean, I got to call my sister, my children. I got to call my pastor. I got to, you know, to let them know I'm going into the hospital because I'm having a heart attack. Wow, wow, wow. That quick. You know, I think your husband might have saved your life without aspirin. Oh, no, no, no. The doctor said your husband saved your life. But now you've been married for many decades, correct? Yes, 38 years. Well done you. Well, you know what?

I told Cher. I told, I said, listen, I had to do three times to get it right. So what did you get right? Give us some tips. Tell me how you've done it. What's right about this, really? You know what happened? I met him on the cruise ship.

This is when my life was in one of them struggling things. You know what? okay, I'm really tired. When is this going to happen? I know it's going to happen for me, but I'm still struggling. And I met my third husband. He was the chief steward on board the Carnival Cruise Line. Was it love at first sight? No, I liked him. I said, oh, he's kind of cute. He has beautiful brown eyes. Anyway, what made us really get together? He ignored me. Oh, really? And I said, I'm not having this. So did you make the first move?

Yes, he hates me to tell this story because he doesn't want anybody to think he didn't make the first move. I said, no, I made the first move. I said, what's wrong with you? Don't you like me? But then you're older now, so you don't really care. You know, I wasn't looking for no man.

I wasn't looking for it. My career was on now. Forget y'all. The kids are grown now. Y'all got your life. It's all about mom now. And I'm going to get it. So I really wasn't interested in finding anybody. And he just snuck right in. And then how soon after that, like how long did you court? And then what happened?

For a year and a half, we started dating in 83. We got married in 84, moved to New York, and my career took off. So the stars aligned for you right then. Both ways for my husband, for my married personal life. and for my career because this husband that I'm married to now understood what I was doing. And he was interested in me getting my career where I was. He knew where I was. I was having a hard time getting my career going. And with him, he wanted to help me build. He was your champion. Yes. He wanted to help me build my career. Just like your dad. I like that. Exactly. Exactly.

Hello there, Wiser than Mears. It's Julia jumping in here. Okay, so at this point, we realized that Darlene's microphone was actually moving around a lot, which is kind of ironic because of all the amazing guests we've had on this show. Darling Love is by far the best with a microphone, obviously. So please bear with this shitty audio for the next couple of minutes. Thanks. I think we have to pause because there's an issue with your mic, I'm being told. I think that's what's going on. And I don't know what it is. If we give me like three minutes here to... Three minutes to set it because I think they want to fix it so it will stop moving. Where are you, though? I'm in Rockland County, New York. Oh, New York.

And where are you? I'm in Santa Barbara, California. Oh, I know exactly where that is. Yeah. Because I was born and raised in Los Angeles. I know you were. Do you miss it? Not at all.

Uh-huh. I did it first. because I never liked to New York. I never liked back east. I loved working here, but I never thought I would live here. What made you make that change? I tell this story to Stevie Van Zand every time I see him. You are the reason I live in New York.

Really? He saw me at a show in California. And he said, I want you to come to New York. I want to record you. him and Bruce had just finished doing something and they saw my show and he said well if I get you a job would you come and I went sure give me a job I'll come

he got me two jobs actually and I came here and I found out I had a life here a career here because I never worked here as darling love I mainly just worked here as a backup singer you know for all the people that I worked with mostly the beginning of my career.

I didn't start my solo career until I turned 40. So I say, I tell these people, don't even worry about age if you got it. Yeah. Yeah. I hope that we can't, I don't know if, are we recording all of this still, even though, wait a minute. Yep, we're recording. Good. I want to make sure.

Nobody believes what we go through. You know, they think you that's turn about. button. And then it's done. And you have all these geniuses working behind the scenes. Okay. I think we're in way better shape now. Thank you so much for your help. So you were talking about how the reason you live in New York is because of Stevie Van Zant, right? Yes. And do you mind telling that story and how it is you're in New York and how this happened to you in your career? And then we'll go back. So I'm coming, I'm coming at your career sort of through the back door

and then coming back to the front. Because literally, you know, I tell my husband all the time, you know, literally my career started here in New York because I had never worked in New York before as Darling Love. And I worked at this club called The Bottom Line. That's where Stevie Van Zant got me my first job, which I loved. So I got to know the manager and everybody that works there. It was wonderful.

And how old were you? 40. 40 years old. Okay. Right. That's why I say, listen, it's never too late. Don't let people talk to you about age. If you still got it, if you can still sing, if you still have that energy, don't worry about it.

People, they'll come along with you eventually. Because that's actually what happened in New York. Alan Pepper, who owned the club, started putting newspaper articles in Darling, Love is working tonight. She'll be here through. Wednesday or Thursday, whatever. So the press started coming to my shows. I see.

And that's literally how it happened. Now, you figure for almost 40 years ago, the press wasn't anything like they are today. Right. This is pre-Twitter, pre-everything. Yep. Pre-social media. Right.

So there was a lady. You might know her. I love her. Her name was Sue Simmons. Oh, yes, of course, Sus. She used to do what we call live at Fats. Live at five. I know it well because I was working at 30 Rock at the time. Ah, yes. Was it Chuck Scarborough? Yes, Chuck Scarborough. He's still on. Matter of fact.

I know. Can you imagine? And he looks good. Yes, he does. He hasn't changed. In fact, I remember when I was in New York and I saw him and I on television. I was like, wow, he's like, this is like a time machine or something. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, I remember Sue Simmons well. She actually retired, but during this time, she would always have me on her shoulder. like I was her next door neighbor. Come on down and be on the show. Or I'd be, I was doing the David Letterman show then. So we were like next door to one another. So whenever I'd go to do David show, I'd just pass by Sue and just say, hey, what's going on? And she started sending people

down to the show to see me. She said, you got to see this lady. She's crazy. It's unbelievable at her age what she's doing. I was doing two shows a night. When you worked at the bottom line back then you did an eight o'clock and a midnight show. Oh. So she started sending people down. Then the press started coming to see me. So they started talking about darling love. And

the more I work there, the more people, you know, the first couple of shows I did were like kind of spacey. You know, it wasn't a whole lot of people there. I think that room holds like 300 people. Yeah. But by the time I finished working, you couldn't get into the show.

Really? Really. It's just amazing how my career took off when I got to New York. Yeah. We'll be back with Darlene Love right after this quick break. At a certain age, you suddenly realize the importance of keeping your body strong. That's why it's easy to understand why so many people are talking about protein goals. It keeps your bones sturdy, helps you keep the muscle you've worked for, and is great for recovery after you exercise. The good news is ratio protein yogurt has your back. With 25 grams of

protein per cup, ratio is serving up more protein per cup than any other yogurt in the dairy aisle plus zero added sugar. To put it into perspective, 25 grams of protein is more protein than four whole eggs. With ratio, you're getting a complete protein with a complete protein with all nine essential amino acids, zero grams of added sugar, and the kind of fuel that helps your body build and repair cells and tissue, all in something you can grab and eat in seconds. And unlike a lot of other high-protein options, ratio protein has a smooth and creamy texture, so there's no need to compromise great taste when hitting protein goals. Use ratio to make a high-protein breakfast bowl, a creamy dip for your next get-together,

or throw it on top of your favorite dinner recipe to sneak a little more protein into every dish. Ratio does the math so you don't have to. Head to ratiofood.com to find a retailer near you. Your big break when you were younger, younger, was with Phil Specter, essentially, right? But that was a double-edged sword, was it not? If you could make the sword bigger, yes.

That was a double. A big, big, double-edged sword. Yes, yes, yes. And then he changed your name from Darlene Wright to Darlene Love, right? Yes. And in 1962, you recorded he's a rebel, but your name wasn't on the record. And you knew that he had removed your name, and he did this many times. Right.

How did you process the, I assume, anger that you had towards Phil and come out the other side of it? I never tried to carry hate. Now, there is a big difference in hating somebody and just didn't like what they're doing to you. I think if you don't let it get in, for me, if you don't let it get into hating somebody, because hating somebody makes it only worse. Right. But I disliked what he was doing to me. But didn't you get angry?

Yes, I got very angry, but it never turned into hate. I disliked him. I despised him for using me. You know, and I was always that one that was telling him, I said, you're just using me. What the hell? You know, I don't get this. I've done nothing wrong. I just want to be a singer.

I want my career. And you can give me that. I think that's what I really disliked about him. He could have given me a gigantic career. And he withheld that from you. All of that. Every time I would succeed, he would be there to put his foot in the way. When I was doing television shows,

show. The producers of the TV show, man, this is the biggest show on television. It's about singers. Why don't you record, Darlene? This is nuts. This doesn't make sense. I don't want to be bothered right now with her. He would not record me the whole time I was under the contract to him while I was on Shindig. He was that foot that was always in the way. You know, like an annoying something, like an annoying fly. I think everybody has been annoyed by a fly. You could almost like, if I could just. But I wouldn't let myself. go to his level to hate him. I see. But I, oh, I was angry. That's your superpower right there. That's your strength. It is. But I disliked every, because I wasn't, I was able, now that I really wanted a career, now I was

able to get one. All you got to do is put the records out under my name and they make them a hit. That's what you did for the Ronnets. You did that for the crystals, but you did it for the righteous brothers. When did you decide to sue him? Because you did sue him. I finally did sue him because it had not been for these. There is a gentleman, his name is Rubin, that he takes care of getting royalties for singers.

He's here. He was here. He passed not too long ago, but he lives here. And he said, I can do this for you. I can get your royalties. But by then, I'd just think I'd never want to really sue Phil Speck. Nobody wanted to take him on. Yeah, he was a snake in the grass.

People were scared of him. I said, that little shrimp, why are you scared of him? What can he do to you? He could have did a lot, but I just figured what, you know. And I said, okay, let's sue him. And we sued him, and he was so shocked that I won. Because nobody has ever sued Phil Spector and won. I love that you are the one who did it. I really do. At that point, it didn't even matter about the money. Because then the law would only let me sue. It was a symbolism. That's it. Yeah, because the law would only let me sue for certain things, not just for royalties, because my songs were in movies, you know, that I couldn't get paid for.

I'll tell you, against all odds, and here you are. I mean, I feel like I'm totally in awe of you. You know what? This business is a great business, too. It can alleviate a lot of stress. When I'm on the stage, it's impossible, too. Yeah, oh, definitely impossible. When you're on stage, everything else falls away. Am I right, Darlene? Exactly right. I can go on stage mad and mad about something that's something happened. That's why the people around me are really great

because they won't say anything negative to me before I go on stage. I would hope not. But the thrill when I do a show, my greatest shows is when I'm angry. And when I get off, yeah, when I get off the stage, the band is like, wow, who is you mad at? Really? And it's so much fun. I want my audience to feel what I'm feeling every time I'm on stage. And they come to me after show is over and things that I get on Facebook, what they say.

But I felt like I was in your living room when you were just singing just to me. And then I go, I was. Oh, God bless you. It's such a joy to be able to use the gift that God has given you. and believe you me, he gives it to you and he wants you to use it. Yes. He really does. I told my girlfriend another day, I said he shows you the beginning and he shows you

the end, but he don't show you all the crap you got to go through to get to the end. So we've been talking for such a long time. I've loved every second of talking to you. I just, I really, I'm so honored to talk to you. let me ask you a couple of other really little quick questions. Is there anything that you would tell yourself at 21? Anything that you, from this vantage point now, here you are, 81 years old. Is there something you wish your 21-year-old self had known? You know, I really do wish I, you know, you always say you wish you know back then what you know now.

Yeah. But I don't think it would have happened because those are wishes and dreams. We want to be in our dream. We want to dream. We want to have wishes. I think if you don't have them, you won't appreciate life the way life is supposed to be. Right. Right.

So I try not to think hard about what happened because they weren't great years for me. You know, from the age of knowing, say, 10, 15 years of age along the way. Those weren't great years for me because they were trying. years for me. They were trying to get over, trying to prove, you know, and not just family, you know, and then you have the family. I'm not talking about my children. I'm talking about my brothers, my sisters. You know, the church, if I would have paid attention to all of that, I would have never been who I am today. Right. Because they taught us not to be that type of person. Right. Which to me was always like, but why? What's wrong with it? We don't all have to be

nuts to be in this business? Yeah. We don't have to fall in the traps. Right. And you didn't. You know, I've been, I've been taught, and I thank God for all those learnings that I learned back that. We didn't, because the traps was there. I mean, forget Las Vegas. I mean, there was so many opportunities to be a bad girl and do all the things to really where you think, this is what I really want. I want to have money. I want a man. I want power. I want fine houses and all that. Yeah, no. Those are trappings. What's the best business advice that you ever received? Hmm. I can always go back to Dion.

Tell me. The best advice she ever gave me is like, you know, she called me doll. My nickname was Dolly. Dahl. Whatever it is you want to do, you just have to, you have to find a way to do it. Just do it. There's no miracle. there is no special something, you know what I mean? You just believe you can do it and you do it.

And that's proven over time because whenever I got stuck, I would always say, I can do this. It's not too hard for me to do this. I can get over this. I can do it. I will do this. I will do this. This has been the most joyful conversation.

and you are an inspiration to me and to everybody in the world. I can confidently say that. Thank you for being here, and I give you my love, and thank you. Thank you so much, Julia. It has been a wonderful time with you. God bless. God bless you. Bye.

Bye-bye. Well, how much fun was that? There's so much to tell my mom. I'm going to Zoomer right now. Hello. Hi, Mom. Hi, sweet. There you are. Oh, you went away. Come back. There you are. Now you're muted. Not going to be muted. No, no, now I can hear you. Now I can hear you. So, hi, Mommy. So I just ended a conversation with Darlene Love. And she is a very remarkable person. I saw her in the, you know, the backup singer. Yes, 20 feet from stardom. Exactly 20 feet. I'll never can remember how many feet. But the backup singers, they just struck me as being so remarkable. Absolutely remarkable. She said when she's on stage, everything just falls away. I kind of got that. You know what I mean? For me, that's exactly the same too. You know, when the engine is really firing, everything definitely falls away. But I have to tell a story about myself. I don't know if I've ever actually told you this. So back in the 80s, I was in this Woody Allen movie, Hannah and her sisters. I a very small role. I played a production assistant on Woody Allen's show. This is within the

film. And he was like the director or the showrunner or something. And I was a production assistant. And we're shooting a scene in which Woody Allen thinks that he has a brain tumor and he thinks he's hearing things. But he's also the director of the film, by the way. And so we roll camera. I'm supposed to cross the camera, which means walk across the set. And then Woody says, wait a minute. Does anybody hear that? That was the line he was supposed to say. And so we did it. And they roll camera. And I go, action. I start to walk across. And Woody goes, wait a minute. And I stop my tracks. And I go, yeah, what? And he goes, no, no, no, that's the line. And I go, oh, my God, you can imagine. I mean, Mom, I was like, I was like 23 years old and this happened. I was like so humiliated and everybody laughed. And so we go back to one, roll camera, action.

I start to cross. Woody goes, wait a minute. And I stopped in my tracks again. I did it again a second time. I did. So talk about things falling away. I mean, that was an experience where I was just completely out of my mind being in this movie. But you know, let me tell you something.

But you got to laugh. I got a laugh. It wasn't a good one though, Mom. It wasn't a good one. No, I know it wasn't, but let me tell you, when you were four and you were in your dance class and everybody was, and I got to look through the little window, the little circular window on the door because we couldn't go in. The moms couldn't go in.

We took turns looking. So when I was looking, you were going, run, run. The class was going run, run, run, run, leap. Run, run. And so your turn came and you went, run leap, run leap. Everybody started to laugh. You liked it. You liked it.

I mean, I mean, you know. whatever your world was. I will tell you, Woody Allen made a joke at my expense after that. I can't remember what he did, but he said some comment about how I kept screwing it up and then he got a laugh. So it wasn't quite the happiest ending ever. But anyway, this woman has had a remarkable life. I'm so happy that you had a chance to talk to her and that she was, that you got the sort

of arc of her life. Yeah. Such remarkable women that you have. been in touch with. And each of these goes in like a pet pill. A what pill? A pet pill. No, you know what I mean? In other words, when I feel old and tired and so forth, but then you get a sense of other people's lives being so adventurousome and energetic. And it's like, oh, yeah, come on. Yeah. That's what I mean by a pet pill. I mean, we can do that for each other. But I think that these women must have inner strength that is practiced.

Yeah. She's squeezing every ounce out of life that she can. Oh, God, bless her. I'm so glad. I'm so glad. It's good news in just the right way. Yeah, I know. So go listen to some darling love music.

I'm going to do that in me, in mead. So anyway, thank you, Levy for doing this. I'm so happy that you're garnering all this wisdom, and I hope you're keeping notes. I'm trying to keep notes, but we have transcripts, so we can just read the transcripts. Okay, mommy, I'm going to jump off. Okay. I love you so much.

Keep up the good work. Toodoo. Toodoo. To doleu. There's more wiser than me with Lemonada Premium. Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content. Subscribe now in Apple Podcasts. Wiser than me is a production of Lemonada Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louis Dreyfus.

The show is produced by Chrissy Pease, Alex McOwen, and OHA Lopez. Brad Hall is a consulting producer. Our senior editor is Tracy Clayton. Rachel Neal is our senior director of new content, and our VP of weekly production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Stephanie Whittles Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer, Paula Kaplan, me. The show is mixed by Cat Yore and Johnny Vince Evans and music by Henry Hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Charlotte Christman Cohen and of course my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser than me wherever you get your

podcasts. And hey, if there's an old lady in your life, listen up. Thank you.