Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus - Listen Again: Julia Gets Wise with Ina Garten

Episode Date: November 27, 2024

On this encore episode of Wiser Than Me, Julia gets enlightened by 76-year-old cook and author Ina Garten. From working on nuclear policy at the White House and operating her famous specialty food store Barefoot Contessa, to penning best-selling books and hosting hit TV shows – Ina has done it all. Her culinary influence goes beyond technique; it's about simplicity and connection. Ina shares how aging has changed her taste in food and how she deals with passive-aggressive people.   Follow Wiser Than Me on Instagram and TikTok @wiserthanme and on Facebook at facebook.com/wiserthanmepodcast.   Keep up with Ina Garten @inagarten on Instagram.   Find out more about other shows on our network at @lemonadamedia on all social platforms.   Joining Lemonada Premium is a great way to support our show and get bonus content. Subscribe today at bit.ly/lemonadapremium.    For exclusive discount codes and more information about our sponsors, visit https://lemonadamedia.com/sponsors/.  For additional resources, information, and a transcript of the episode, visit lemonadamedia.com.    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Well, hi there! It's me, Julia Louis-Dreyfus. We're back for season three of Wiser Than Me. We've got so much more wisdom to share from the magnificent old ladies featured this season. To celebrate the start of season three, we've added some groovy new items to our Wiser Than Me merchandise collection. Head over to our merch shop to check out all of our great stuff, like a classic Wiser Than Me Bagu Tote Bag, a kitchen tea towel with my grandma Deity's delicious peanut butter cookie recipe featured on it, and a brand new gorgeous hard cover Wiser Than Me Notebook to capture all of this season's bits of wisdom. Start shopping today by visiting wiserthanmeshop.com. Once in our travels when I was a little girl of about eight, I think, when my daddy Tom

was a surgeon on the Hope hospital ship, we were living in Tunisia. And I remember very vividly that I was so upset with my mom because she said I had to finish my dinner before I had dessert, which made no sense at all. And there was another couple there who were working with my dad and the woman in the couple said, well, how about I take you out for lunch, just you and me, and then you can have dessert first. And so that was very appealing, as you can imagine, and I did. We went to lunch and I ordered a huge hot fudge sundae, I mean, just huge, and I just

gobbled that fucker up. And then when it was time to actually order lunch, well, I couldn't really order lunch because I was too full. But I assure you of one thing, I did not learn a lesson that day. I've always been a true and deep lover of sweets and desserts. In fact, one of my earliest memories is of these peanut butter cookies that my grandma Didi made for me,

you know, the kind that have the fork imprint on them. I still have her handwritten index card with the cookie recipe. Well, actually, I think I have it. I don't know where it is. My mom may have it. I don't know. But I love dessert so much. I don't know exactly why other than it's so sweet and yummy, but God, why not? It's always been like that for me. And so, you know, when our kids were little, providing for them, obviously this is some instinctual maternal thing. You just get this incredible joy out of your kids finishing a meal that you made for them, right? The most basic kind of nurturing. And I'm also very captive to ritual,

as I think we all are to a certain extent. So I put great store into birthdays and making sure that both of our kids always had memorable birthdays. And so when our first son, Henry, was little, just a little toddler, I was so looking forward to baking him a birthday cake. And so I asked him what kind of cake he wanted.

And I mean, honestly, he was little. He was barely even talking. What does he know about cakes? But he was a fanciful kid. So when I said, what kind of cake do you want, Hen? And he said, orange. And this was clearly the color orange. I don't think that he had any idea

that a cake could even have an orange flavor. This was just about the look of it. Think about it, just a giant orange cake. So I set about looking for an orange cake that I could make for him and I did. I found a bundt cake made with real oranges that I then Jerry rigged into a three-layer cake, and then I concocted this cream cheese frosting to go with it. And I shouldn't say this because, you know, it's not very, you know, farm to

table of me, but I dyed the frosting orange, not a bright orange, more sort of a peachy salmon color, so that it was aesthetically pleasing, you know. And I covered it in mandarin oranges on top. It was gorgeous. And it was a huge hit with Henry. And I've been making that cake on his birthday ever since. And then my younger son, Charlie, he requested a key lime pie. So I made him this key lime pie. I ordered the key lime juice from just one place. These guys called the Manhattan

Key Lime Juice Company. And you can look it up because that's all they sell for real. Key lime juice, nothing else, which is just so fabulously old school. I just love it. So I've been making that key lime pie for my Charlie for almost 25 years and the orange cake for Henry going on 30 years. Now I use fresh oranges from our own tree so it's even better. For me this is just the quintessence of a gesture of love. It's such a simple thing, you know, measuring, mixing, baking, but it does take focus and concentration and exactness. And even then, it doesn't always go the way you want.

You know, there's some luck and karma mixed into it too, but boy, it's just, it's so meaningful to me to make something sweet and poignantly delicious for the people that I love. And I plan on doing this for the rest of my life, this little thing, or it's actually kind of a big thing, because it gives me such joy and pride. It's become a sacrament really now to me. So I guess cooking can take on a significance way beyond just being delicious and nutritious. And that's why I am so delighted today to get to talk to Ina Garten.

Hi, I'm Julia Louis-Dreyfus and this is Wiser Than Me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. Anybody hungry? You're going to be because our guest today has been dishing out fabulous recipes and a shit ton of charm for decades. She is the Barefoot Contessa, the queen of comfort cooking. Her signature bob and blue shirt are as iconic as her roasted chicken. But it's not just about the food. Her down-to-earth approach has not only transformed the culinary landscape, but has also left a real mark on how real people perceive and embrace the art of home cooking. I mean, we eat roasted carrots at our house because of her. In an era full of star chefs, she claims not

to be a chef, but a cook. She stands out not just for her recipes, but for her genuine connection with her audience, which has made her a cultural figure known for her warmth and authenticity, and somehow that makes her food even more scrumptious. One iconic store, two hit TV shows, 13 best-selling cookbooks, and a 55-year-long marriage later, our guest feels universally cherished, especially by her husband, Jeffrey, but also by me. And for me, she really pretty much is up there with fresh, salty butter on warm bread. I think it's because she makes every meal feel like a cozy get-together with an old friend.

Now, full disclosure, I'm really just hoping to get invited to a dinner party at our house. And I'll bring the dessert. I will. I'm so pleased to welcome the James Beard Award winner and the Hamptons most notorious resident, a woman who is so much wiser than me, Ina Garten. Ina! I'm so happy to be here. I love you. I love you. I love you. Let's just say that from the start.

I love that the roast carrots are, you think of me when you think of roast chicken and roast carrots, because that's what I always say. It's about those two things. It is. It's about simplicity and delicious. Completely. 100%. You brought carrots back into my life in a very powerful way. So let me ask you something. Are you comfortable if we share your real age? I am.

And what is your real age? My real age is 76. How old do you feel, Ina? You know, I kind of like being 76. I get to do whatever I want to do. Yeah. Yeah. No BS. No. I mean, I wouldn't mind a 25 year old body, but the rest of it, I'll take the 76. I hear that. I love that. You're completely embracing it. I feel the same way about getting

older. I mean, there are aspects of being younger, physical aspects that would be nice, but there is something very freeing about getting older, right? Well, I feel like when we're younger, we wonder what will become of us. And when we're older, we know what's going to become of us. And it's turned out really great. Yeah, I completely hear that. And it's nice to feel it's like boots that you've been wearing a long time. They're super comfortable and you feel confident in them.

I think when you're younger, you feel like you have to do everything, just because you're just building things and you have to do everything that comes your way. And then when you get older, you start choosing and you choose because it's fun, not for any other reason, right? Well, that's right. older you start choosing and you choose because it's fun not for any other reason, right? Well that's right and I remember in doing research that to talk with you and you were saying that Jeffrey when you were making the decision to leave government, the White House, and you weren't sure what to do and he said, well just find something that's fun for you.

And he said it for me particularly because if it's fun, I want to do it. If it's not fun, you can't get me to do it with the cattle prod. Uh-huh. I had a physics teacher when I was in high school, Mr. Coyne, Marty Coyne, and he was a wonderful teacher. He would write on the bottom of every paper that you would turn in, he would say, have fun at all costs. Isn't that great?

Yeah. And obviously, that can be misunderstood, but I knew what he meant. And I've certainly applied that in my own life. It's an incredible lens through which to make decisions. Yeah, exactly. So tell me, take me through a typical eating day for you. Like, you know, well, I mean, what'd you eat today?

What have you had to eat? Well, it's pretty orderly, actually. Yeah, I want to hear. I pretty much have toast and coffee for breakfast. And the toast has to have good French butter on it with shaved sea salt. Yes. It's called beurre de barat, B-A-R-A-T-T-E with flaked sea salt and it's just so delicious. So that's what I have for breakfast. Then at exactly 10.30, I have to have a cup of tea with a little honey in it. It's not 10.29 and it's not 10.31. At 10.30, my brain goes, bing, I have to have some tea.

Then for lunch, Jeffrey and I always have soup, which is so easy because I can make a lot of soup and leave it in the freezer. What did you have today? I had Italian wedding soup. Yummy. And then for dinner, we either go out to dinner with friends or we order dinner from a restaurant. I've been testing recipes all day. The last thing I want to do is make dinner.

Yeah, I hear that. And I don't like to have for dinner what I tested during the day unless it's totally done and it's so good, I want Jeffrey to have it. Right. That's work and this is dinner. Got it. And I don't want to eat something and go, I wish it had more rosemary in it. It's just not fun.

Yeah, not fun. There we go with the fun again. I want to show you a picture for our listeners. I'm showing a picture of what I made for me and my husband this morning for breakfast. Let me see if you can see it. Oh, wait, shit. Oh, God, I don't know how to get that thing away. Oh, God, I'm trying to work my iPhone. Okay, wait. Can you see that? That's the smash poached eggs on toast. Oh, smashed eggs on toast. Smashed eggs with the grainy mustard. Isn't that great? Yeah. Oh, how fabulous. Was that to get you in the mood for today? Yeah. And also I was just looking, I was reviewing a bunch of your cookbooks,

which of course I own and I was just sort of wanted to get. Oh yeah. Are you kidding me? I mean, I could not live without them. Oh Julia. I could not live without them. Thank you. How has your relationship changed to food as you've gotten older? You know, I mean, are there tastes that you have now that you didn't then or things, I mean, back in the day or things you didn't like when you were younger that you love now? I think my style hasn't changed at all. I think it might be my sophistication about things has

changed. And I've learned about a few things. So, you know, I didn't know what truffle butter was. I didn't know what sriracha was. There are a few things in the 25 years I've been writing cookbooks that I've kind of acquired as part of the repertoire of things that I can use. But I think I still like roast chicken and roast carrots. I know you can't beat it. It's just, it's one thing I learned when I had especially food stores that people eat differently at home than they do in a restaurant. They like really simple food.

Right. And that's true about me too, actually. I like simple food in a restaurant too, but people don't want fancy, you know, via with morels at home. And so I think that hasn't changed. What has changed a little bit is my insistence on flavor. That if I go back to a recipe I wrote 20 years ago, it needs a little extra something. And I think it's always something like some acid like lemon juice or red wine vinegar or something salty like parmesan cheese. Just that little thing at the end that needs to be added that kind of brings out the flavor. So I've gotten better at that.

Better at identifying that, right? Yeah. Because I think our taste buds change, you know, I mean, I think that they physically change. Don't ask me how or why that happens. Oh, maybe. But I didn't like cilantro when I started and I still don't like cilantro now. So that'll never change. Yeah. Now listen, you and I are going to have a huge argument about that because I love cilantro.

You love it? I put on everything. Do you really? Yeah, I do. I made chicken salad the other day and I just throw tons of cilantro in it. Why don't you like cilantro, by the way? I think it's physiological. I think what you taste is not what I taste. Oh, it may be.

Oh, yeah. It's really physiological. It tastes like soap to me. And if you put one leaf of cilantro on anything, that's all I taste. Oh my God, that's incredible. And I like how things are layered, you know, like a flavor bubbles up with chocolate and coffee and vanilla. They have to be layered the right way. And cilantro, once there's a leaf of cilantro, actually, if there's a cilantro at the next table, I can taste

it. It's just so bad. Okay, so I know what not to get you for Christmas a bunch of cilantro. Sometimes I'd like to think, believe it or not, this sort of calms me down in my mind. I think about what in my kitchen is a must have, you know, like just basic things. I have, for example, I have a hand electric mixer that my mom gave me and it says General Electric on it. It's from like the early 70s, I think. And that's a must have for me.

Or a rubber spatula, you know, with a little tiny curve in it, you know, with the concave center. Are there things like that that you just, tools in the kitchen that you just have a love affair with? I do have a spatula from when I got married. From before I got married, actually. Yeah. It was from Caldors. Caldors. I remember Caldors. If anybody remembers Caldors. I do. They had everything at Caldors, right? Everything.

Yeah, everything. And is it a spatula that still really works well? It works perfectly well and I can't replace it. I can't find the same spatula. They're either huge spatulas or tiny spatulas. And this is just the right size spatula. I have one of those too, but it's not from before I was married, but I've had it for probably 25 years and I just, I love it.

This is 55 years and it's still good. I thought you were referring to your marriage. You said this is 55 years, it's still good. Even better than a spatula. Yeah, exactly. So moving out of the kitchen for a moment, you're a gardener. You have a beautiful garden at your house in the Hamptons. Thank you. I'm in Santa Barbara, California, and I planted garlic, which I've never planted before. I haven't either. And the garlic scapes that

grow on the top, you can grill them. They're really great. Oh, no way. Really? Yeah. Yeah. And I did not know you break apart your clove of garlic and you take each individual clove and you plant it. Plant it, yeah. And it's already poked through the earth and I just planted it like nine days ago, which is kind of amazing, you know? It's my great, yeah. Yeah.

Does gardening teach you patience? I don't tend to be patient, but I like seeing something evolve in a garden. Yes, it teaches me, certainly does teach me patience, but also it's a thrill because you don't know. There's so much, you know, if you go away for a week and then you come back to look at your garden, things will have changed. And so it's kind of, it always feels like a miracle to me.

It does. And also the structure of the plant is different from the flower itself. When the flower dies, the plant itself is beautiful, and then the seed pods are different from the flower. So it just keeps evolving. It's just great. Yeah. It's a reminder of life and the miracle of life.

And the circle. And the circle. And the circle, yeah. It's just gorgeous. That's great. Until the bunnies come and eat my roses. They eat your roses? Yeah, those little motherfuckers. But they're so adorable.

They're so precious, but I do kind of turn into like Farmer McGregor or Elmer Fudd. I've learned to hate them. And can you garden all year round because you're in Santa Barbara? Yeah. Oh, that's great. But believe it or not, yes, but we do have seasons. So certain things look great right now and certain things are dormant.

And you have rosemary hedges, which we couldn't even begin to have here, right? I know, and every time my mother visits, she cuts all... I mean, I have rosemary all over the place. It's like ground cover. And she just goes around cutting it. I feel... It's like she's a crazy woman. And she puts it into a bag to take home to herself and to all her girlfriends. Like they don't have rosemary in New York. I know, but it feels special, right, coming from this garden. We have to take a break now.

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Peloton at OnePeloton.com. So you worked at the White House. And you worked on nuclear policy, correct? Right. And what struck me, first of all, that's extraordinary that this is your story in and of itself. But I was thinking about science and the overlap of science and cooking.

Yeah, I'm totally aware of it. Right? It's not an accident. Exactly. It's not an accident. I think that if you enjoy science, cooking is really another kind of science. And I always think that if you work in science, you end up with nuclear energy or you end up with gibberellic acid or whatever it is. In cooking, you end up with a chocolate cake.

So I'll take the chocolate cake any day. So I think they are very related. And the way I test a recipe is absolutely scientific. I'll make a recipe once and I'll analyze what the result is and then I'll change one or two things about it and then make it again and then change one or two things about it and make it again and it's a very scientific process for me. And you're taking notes along the way obviously, right? Yeah, I take notes along the way, obviously, right? Yeah, I take notes along the way. And I start out, I think, the way you often do in science with hypothesis of what I want

it to be. If I'm doing a chocolate cake, I want to know, I know what texture I'm looking for, what flavor I'm looking for, what range of flavor, you know, like what things I want to have bubble up. And if I don't know where I'm going, I'll never finish. So I have to have something in my head where I'm going. And I keep testing it until I kind of hear that ping that says, that's what I'm looking for.

Do recipes come to you in your, I mean, like, do you conjure them in your head? Are you like improvising a recipe and then you write it down and you try it? How does that work, Ina? Not really. I will start with an idea of something that I might have seen in my travels. I might have seen at a restaurant. I might have read in a book. But then I'll read a lot of other people's views on that thing, whatever it is.

If I'm making like an Italian soup, ribollita. I'll just read a lot about ribollita and then I'll put all the books away and I'll start cooking. So it's kind of what my idea of what ribollita should be and how I can make it taste better. So you're an improviser as well. To a certain extent. Exactly. So you're an improviser as well, to a certain extent. My husband's brother, Jim, is a scientist, a very respected scientist at UC Irvine. And I remember he was at our house once and I was cooking.

I love to bake. And I was baking and somebody was in the kitchen with me and they were measuring out the flour, but they were measuring it out but not leveling it off. Which I off, which I said, no, no, no, no, you must level it off. And I was showing how to do it actually for all the ingredients, particularly for baking. And I remember looking at my brother-in-law, Jimmy, and he had such, what can I say, respect and adoration in his face because he was a scientist. He was appreciating the attention to the detail. Yeah, the detail. I follow recipes exactly even my own. I measure everything. And then because once you've spent the time to make sure it's absolutely perfect,

why do you want to start throwing ingredients in there? Yeah, it's growing it up. You want it to be exactly right. That's right. Especially as a baker. Yeah, especially the baker, right, especially. Talk about entertaining. I mean, did your family entertain growing up? My dad loved to have parties. Oh, he did? My mother hated it, hated it.

But it was my mother that had to give the parties. So it was always a struggle. It was always, I mean, she did parties because he liked his friends, but I think it was never a happy experience. And as soon as I got married, I was like, I remember being in our first house, it was a garden apartment in North Carolina. And I remember looking around going, I can do anything I want to do now. For the first time, I have nobody criticizing me, I can do anything I want to do now. For the

first time, I have nobody criticizing me, nobody telling me what to do. I can do whatever I want. And I just wanted to have parties. So I just started teaching myself how to cook. It was then. It was then, literally, as soon as I got married. Did you like food before then? Were you a food lover or did that really come? Not really. No. And I was never allowed to cook when I was a kid. Really?

So I really didn't, I don't think I ever connected with it. I didn't know that it was something that would be fun to do at all. Well, I mean, I think when I was a kid, I didn't even know I would do anything. So I thought, you know, I was kind of of the generation when I was in college, I thought, well, I'll go to college and then I'll get married and that's that. It was Jeffrey who said to me, you need to figure out what to do with your life. He said, unless you do something, you're not going to be happy. And I was like, whoa, never even occurred to me.

Wow, that's incredible. Isn't that amazing? Yes, it's amazing. And you were 20, right? I was 20, yeah. I was 20. So that was really the beginning of trying to figure out what I wanted to do. Yeah, yeah.

And I totally credit him with that. Yeah. And when you started to entertain at a young age, did you feel the same anxiety that your mom had or you did and you overcame it or you didn't have it? I gave some pretty bad parties in the beginning. No way. I don't believe it. Seriously. I remember one party in North Carolina. I decided to invite everybody for brunch, which I hate, but I invited everybody for brunch

and I thought, well, I'll make an omelet for everybody. It was like 20 people. It was the worst idea. Now I know how to make an omelet. It's not easy. I don't know what the hell I made when I was 20. I was in the kitchen the whole time. Of course you were. And I think it took me like a year to get over that and give parties. I think my mother had anxiety about the people as well as the food. I mean, today, I have to say, I'm not a comfortable cook. If I'm giving a dinner party, I'm beside myself with anxiety that it's not going to come out

right. Even after all this time. Even after all this time. Are you the same way? I'm afraid so. I really, every time I'm, if I'm having people over and I'm cooking about an hour before I'm trying to come up with a way to cancel it. That's really great. I hadn't gone that far. About an hour before I'm trying to come up with a way to cancel it

That's really great. I had to go that far, but that's no I totally I mean I want out of this It's like the tables pretty that was fun. It was fun to set the table dessert. I made earlier. I love to make dessert That's okay, but the meal Fucking forget it. It's just the worst It's the worst that's one of the things that I I'm aware of when I'm writing a cookbook is how hard it is to give a dinner party. Yeah, it's hard. It's so much work. It's so difficult. And it's so much anxiety for unless you're, I don't know, unless you're a restaurant chef. It's so hard. That's why I want the

recipes to be really easy. Yeah. So you can just put the carrots on a sheet pan, olive oil, salt and pepper, throw it in the oven and hope you remember to take them out. Yeah, exactly. There's a story in our family. My husband's grandmother, this was in the Deep South and it was during the Depression and she was having people over and they were not well off. They were actually pretty strapped for cash back in the day and it was a depression. And she had people over and she was sitting at the

table. Her name was Narcisse. And her daughter, Charlotte, brought in the roast and all of a sudden Charlotte tripped and the roast fell onto the ground. And Narcisse, Brad's grandmother, without missing a beat, she goes, that's all right, Charlotte, just pick that up and take it back and get the other one. There was no other one. It was this one washed off. That was a really good catch. That was a really good improvised moment.

And you prefer cooking alone though, right? That's what I heard you say. You prefer to be by yourself cooking? I mean, considering that I do this professionally, I can't cook and talk at the same time. I do it on TV and that's okay, but if I know it has to come out perfectly, I mean, Jeffrey's always hanging out and talking to me. I'm like, Jeffrey, I can't talk. Because I'll forget to do something.

And especially if I really know the recipe, if it's something I make a lot, I'll always forget an ingredient if I'm not focusing on it. It's like my attention span isn't that good. So I have to really concentrate to get it right. Do you feel like you have to do that too? Yeah. Yes. I mean, I do, I have a brother-in-law, Patrick, with whom I can cook because we can stand by each other and not talk. But honestly, I get bothered when people are around me talking or even offering to help. I'm like, I can't. Don't offer to help. Just get out of my way. And it's really inhospitable to say, don't

touch it. Get out of here. Go enjoy your cocktail. I'll be there in a minute. Anyway, it's fine. You know what? At the end of the day, the only thing that's really important is to have time with your friends. Completely. I keep trying to remind myself, don't get obsessed about whether something's absolutely exactly the way you want it to be as long as everybody's having a good time. And if they feel like we're anxious about it, it'll bomb.

It's going to ruin the evening. Yeah, it's going to ruin the evening. So we got to get our shit together. That's what you're saying. So on top of being anxious about the meal, we have to look like we're not anxious, which makes you more anxious, right? Of course.

But that'll be our little secret. That's our secret. You never heard it from me. Never heard it. Don't go anywhere. More wisdom from Ina Garten after this quick break. You're known for your look, your signature style with the button-up shirts and with your beautiful scarves. Thank you.

How would you characterize that style? Comfortable. Yeah, that's good. Everything goes in the washing machine. It does? I mean, yeah. I just, I love these shirts. I got a shirt from Talbot's that I just loved and I asked if they could make it for me in different fabrics.

And they said, sure. Wow. And so I have them in corduroy for the winter and I have them in denim chambray for the summer. And I know I can put it on and feel comfortable and feel like it looks put together. It does. It does? Oh good. Yeah, it does. Yes, I have to say it's funny because I went back and I started watching the first season of Barefoot Contest.

Oh, did you really? Yes. Oh my God. And what I so admire about you in your approach and also your look is that it's classic and it's worked. It's worked from the get-go and you stuck to it. You didn't try to futz with it, in my view anyway. And that speaks to a lot of confidence, I think, in you.

You have confidence in yourself. Thank you. Do you agree with that? I mean, I wouldn't say I'm confident about everything, but I think professionally I feel very confident that I know what I want and anything less than that is not okay with me. And I've really pushed through a lot of times where a publisher or a TV producer will disagree with me and I'm just like, no, this is the way I'm going to do it. And I feel that way about my clothes too. Like I'm sure that they would

like me to change my outfit all the time. I just not, that's not who I am. And where does that come from, Inuk? I don't know. I really don't. Because when I was a kid, I was always criticized for everything. So I think it was just internal. I have this sense of who I am, and that's who I am. And I'm perfectly comfortable with it. And if you don't like it, that's okay. It's not your problem. Turn off the TV.

Right, exactly. Maybe it was like a really healthy defense. Maybe it was. a really healthy defense. Maybe it was. You know? Yeah. We never know whether it's in the DNA or whether it's developed. But I love to listen to everybody's opinion and then choose what I want to do. And once I've made that decision, I'm good to go.

Are you the same way? Yeah, I think I am. And I have my group of people that I go to for their take on things. Oh, I totally do. Yeah. But when I'm sure about something or I haven't, I would say that my instincts are usually pretty right and the mistakes I've made in my life have been not following those instincts sometimes, you know?

Isn't that interesting? Yeah. Well, I mean, whatever you're doing, keep doing it because you're totally beloved for whatever you do. Oh, God, that's so nice of you to say. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. And I think, well, having a healthy marriage helps, right? It does. You know, it's funny, I was just telling somebody recently, people think that being in a marriage is confining in some way, but I find it's just the opposite. It's like a big anchor, like a stake in the middle of my life. And it actually gives me more freedom because I know I will always come back to that stake, to that. It's solid, it's supportive, it's positive.

Danielle Pletka Absolutely. Brad and I have been married, oh my God, 36 years now. And, you know, I could, Jesus, I could never have done any of this without him in my life. Danielle Pletka Well, that's what I feel too. Yeah. Danielle Pletka Yeah. And has your marriage changed over the many decades you've been married? Well, I think it's different now. When we lived in Washington, it was much more traditional. I mean, it was the 70s.

And he worked in the State Department. He worked for Kissinger and Secretary of State Vance. And I worked in OMB. You know, it was always expected that I was going to cook dinner. There were kind of roles that we played. And I've increasingly disliked those roles. And so I think my move to buy a specialty food store and have my own business was really breaking out of those roles.

So there was a little bit of a time where we had to figure that out. But he's so intuitive and so respectful of me and so encouraging me to do what I want to do that it wasn't a terrible, you know, we worked it out. And I think he's freer and I'm freer. So it became more of a partnership rather than traditional roles. There was a time in our life where he was offered to live in Tokyo for a year and I had just signed a lease for a store in East Hampton. And we were like, what are we going to do? And he said, you know what, let's both do what we want to do, because we can't choose. If we get to do what I want to do, you'll resent it. And if I don't get to do

that, and I have to stay in East Hampton, then I'll resent it. So let's just do it. Let's do it for a while and see if anybody's unhappy, we'll make a change. And it worked out fine. Actually, after a year, I wrote to him and I said, I said, you know, I think you need to come home because it's not that I'm miserable, I'm just fine. And I think it's a bad idea. So we worked it out. Yeah, so you got married pretty young, which was typical back then, but it was not typical. And really, I think it was a very bold move as a woman, and particularly as a working

woman in the 70s, to make the decision to not have kids. No, it wasn't a struggle at all. I had no interest in having children. None. I just, I had a terrible childhood and it was nothing I wanted to recreate. I think now looking back, I might say I see my friends with their children and I understand what it could be. But when I was 20, I didn't want to have anything to do with it. And Jeffrey felt the same way?

I think Jeffrey would have been a great parent. He would have really loved having children. But he wanted me to be happy. And it was okay with him. Nowadays to opt not to have kids, it feels more sort of almost normal. But back then I would think... But then it wasn't. Then it wasn't.

And there you are being sure of yourself. So yeah, I don't know where that came from. I really don't. But I just I don't know where that certainty came from. But I was really sure of that. But it's the same certainty that you were referring to earlier. I think maybe because when I was a kid, I didn't have any choices. Somebody else made all my choices.

Yeah, right. So once I had the power, I really used it. Maybe I mean, that's kind of what you said, which I hadn't thought about. It's probably very true. Good for you. I love that. You know, one of the things that's happened to me over the past years, a few years I've been working on a memoir. I know.

You do? And what was interesting to me is the threads through, I never look back, the threads that are so consistent. And one of the things is taking risks. And what you're saying is really true is how sure I was along the way of what I wanted at each kind of intersection. It gave me a very different view of myself than I had, which was surprising. Danielle Pletka What was that? Characterize that. Dr. Julie Shirt It gave me more confidence about who I am. I was very surprised the consistency of things through my life. And I actually didn't realize it until I started writing.

And it made me feel good. I'm so looking forward to reading it. Oh, thank you. Thank you. I mean, there are things I did in my 20s and I look back and I think, my God, I was like jumping off a cliff and I had no idea what was going to happen. But I just kept doing it over and over again. And anyway, so that was surprising that I started doing it so early. Yeah, right. So you've kind of been this person for a long time. Right? Yeah, really.

But wait a minute. Do you ever, like, do you get mad? Do you lose your temper? What pisses you off? Pisses me off. Passive aggressive people. Oh, right. Number one on my list. Really? People who tell you something

so that you don't have the opportunity to change it. People that lie to you basically, so that you do what they want you to do. That really makes me mad. Excise all those people from your life. That's my... Danielle Pletka Yeah. Danielle Pletka Yeah. Right?

Danielle Pletka Exactly. Danielle Pletka Yes. Exactly. Danielle Pletka I think it's one of the things that you get to do when you're older is that when you're young, you think your relationships are going to go on forever. And as you get older, you realize sometimes they don't. Sometimes you have to choose your own happiness and as you said, excise people that are hurting you. Nicole Soule-Northam Have you had to do that a lot? Dr. Julie Shalala Not a lot, but I've had to do it and it was painful.

Nicole Soule-Northam Uh-huh. Dr. Julie Shalala Because, you know, I just, I hate hurting people. But if it's a relationship that is damaging, at some point, you know, you try and fix it, you try and fix it again, you try and fix it again, and sometimes you just can't. And so you have to move on. Yes, that's the benefit of getting older. Really. It is.

It's a huge benefit. You just have to say, this isn't working. This is making me unhappy and I don't deserve to be unhappy. Get the fuck out of my house. Exactly. Yeah. What draws you to other people? I think I like positive energy.

I like people who are doing interesting things that really show up. They don't come and expect to be entertained. Do people do that with you? Do they try and tell you things that are funny to make you laugh? They assume I'm going to be funny. And I'm not a big, it's not like I'm a big joke teller. And sometimes I'm very quiet because I'm, just because sometimes I am, I'm just watching the listening.

You're observing. Observing. And I think, and then sometimes people think I'm being funny when I'm not trying to be funny. Do you know what I mean? You sort of. I do. Yeah. Yeah.

Because they expect it. They expect it. So a certain gesture or whatever, I didn't mean that to be funny, but I'll take the laugh. Well, also because you play very humorous characters, and you play them so brilliantly, they forget that it's a character you're playing, it's not necessarily Julia.

Oh, my God, yes. And they also, I think, particularly with television, well, now everything is, I mean, who knows, with computer, I should say, I mean, everybody's watching it on all these other devices, but you're in their home. I mean, you have that same on all these other devices, but you know, you're in their home. Yeah. I mean, you have that same experience with your show, no doubt.

Yeah. You're in their home, so they feel relaxed with your presence. And they feel like you're a friend. Correct. Which can be lovely. There is a downside to it, though. I was one time when I was giving birth to my first son, and this is kind of a gross story, but we can cut it out if it's too repulsive.

I was giving birth and when you're in labor, they put that monitor around your tummy. I was in the bathroom and I was naked and I had the thing around my tummy. And I was in the bathroom and I was naked and I had the thing around my tummy. And I was massive by the way. And I gained like, you know, 50 pounds when I was pregnant. And I was standing there and my water broke and all of a sudden a nurse came into the room and I went, oh, my water broke. Okay, reminding you, naked. And she goes, Elaine. Oh my God. It was so awful. Elaine.

Elaine. Isn't that crazy? I know. That's crazy. I know. How do crazy. I know. How do you make friends as you get older? Is that an easy thing to do for you? What is the key to meeting new people?

I guess you probably do in your line of work, do you? I think one of the things as we get older, Jeffrey and I are very conscious of, we're going to lose friends. And they're going to move to Florida or Tuscany or wherever they move. And it's important to stay connected to people. So we actually make an effort to meet new people, just to make sure that we have a group of friends that we really care about. Do you travel with friends? Yeah, we do. We actually spend a lot of time in Paris, so people come to Paris with us, which is

just heaven. Oh, nice. Yeah. So maybe one of these days, you and I should go to Paris together. We'd have a good time. Go to the markets and get chicken and carrots and cook in my Paris kitchen. Exactly. That would be very good.

It'd be really fun. Do you speak French? Badly. Enough so I can converse with the grocer and the butcher. Yeah. That would be very good. That would be really fun. Do you speak French? Badly. Uh-huh. Enough so I can converse with the grocer and the butcher. Yeah. Yeah. I can get around.

That's good. I wouldn't want to interest the UN. Right. Exactly. I had the opportunity to meet President Macron last year. It was at a thing at the White House. Did you? Yeah.

Because my grandfather was French and flew for the Free French during the war. Oh, wow. He was a part of the resistance. Yeah. Yeah. And so I went over to Macron. I said something- Do you speak French?

Well, like you badly. Enough so that the first sentence or two sounds like I know what I'm talking about. And the problem with that, of course, is that then they assume. You have to understand the answer. Yeah. So Macron starts going, and I have no idea what that guy said to me. But I just kept shaking my head. So anyway, I know that feeling.

You don't want to start it because you don't know what's coming back. Totally, completely. Oh my God. My French has gotten to me a lot of trouble along the way, actually. When we first had this apartment, I went to the hairdresser and she said in French, which I understood, would you like it straight or curly? And I thought, oh, what the hell? It's Paris. Let's make it curly. So she gave me this curly hairdo. And I wanted to say to her, when my husband sees me, he's

going to say, kiss me quick before my wife gets here. So I said, dit moi, mon mari, baissez moi vite en avance comme ma femme marie. And she looked at me in horror, absolute horror. And I had no idea what I had said. So that night I went out with some friends who speak perfect French and I told them what I said and he started to laugh. And he said, and Bess is a kiss, but Bessay is something else entirely. And what you said was, my husband's going to say, fuck me quick before my wife gets here. I never went back to that hairdresser. So she thought you were a brassy dame.

I like it. I mean, actually, it's sort of a betassy dame. I like it. I mean, actually, it's sort of a bet. It's almost a better expression. Fuck me quick before I get to it. That's great. I love it. I'm going to remember that.

So bad French can get you in trouble. Yeah, I guess so. Right. That's really good. We have this thing at the end. I ask you a bunch of quick questions and you can choose to answer them or not, whatever you feel like doing. Okay.

I'm ready. Yeah, you're ready. Something you'd go back and tell yourself at 21? Don't worry about jumping off a cliff. It'll be fine. Yeah. It's the only way you'll get anywhere. Keep jumping.

Keep jumping. Keep jumping. Is there something you'd go back and say yes to? No, I think I've done everything I wanted to do. You said all the yeses that needed to be said? Yeah, I think so. This is good, I know. I can't think of anything I said no to that I wish I'd said yes to.

No. Is there something you want to tell me about aging? I mean, not that we're that far apart in age, but is there something you would, is there some little tidbit that you could tell me about aging? Go for a walk twice a week. It'd be good for you. Good? I like that. I think small changes over one period of time makes a difference. What do you mean small changes? You don't have to run a marathon. I think if you just take a walk twice a week, you'll

be better off. Yeah, right. What are you looking forward to? Going to Paris. Actually, Jeffrey and I decided what are we waiting for? And we booked two trips that we've never done before. Which ones? We're going to the Arctic. And we're going to go on a safari but not going out into the, you know, with the animals. So we booked a safari.

So that's going to be fun. That'll be amazing. That's a life changer. I've done that and it's... What did you see? Kind of everything. Everything? Wow.

Yeah. And I do remember though at the times being having kids, we went when our kids were younger, I want to say they were like maybe eight and 13. And we went and our first night there and we're out in the planes there and we were actually in tents and our leader guy was saying, okay, now a couple rules around camp. There is no running. Nobody can run. And I thought to myself, oh my God, what have we done? I have two rambunctious boys. And I have to now for the next two weeks, they've got to sit the hell down. I thought they're prey.

These kids are prey. Oh, yeah. The whole time I was in a panic. I mean, I had a good time, but it was still, I was like on the edge of my seat the whole time. Well, this has been such a treat to talk with you. And for me too. Thank you so much, Julia.

I'm such an admirer of yours. And I have too. Thank you so much, Julia. I'm such an admirer of yours. And I have yours. Thank you. Wonderful. I hope to see you soon. Me too. Okay, thanks. Thank you.

Okay, time to get my mom on this Zoom call. I got to tell her about this conversation. Hi, mama. Hi, sweetie. I just spoke with Ina Garten. What a huge treat and a treasure to have time with her. I know. I know.

Why is she called the barefoot Contessa? Because she worked in the White House and she was writing nuclear policy during the Carter administration. And her husband, Jeffrey, was also, I believe in government. And anyway, at a certain point she became uninterested in that work and she needed something to do. And Jeffrey said, you need to find something to do. That's fun. And so she found this store in the Hamptons, a food specialty store called the Barefoot Contessa, and it was for sale, and she bought it.

She bought it. Oh my God. I thought, because it's such a great name. I know. And you always think, oh my God, this woman is, you know, she's a countess, but on the other hand, she doesn't, I mean, she's not at all like a royal, you know.

No, not at all, except she has, there is something about her that's quite, I think, rarefied in terms of her approach to food and making it accessible for everybody. That is unusual, what she's done. But something I found really interesting, Mommy, is that she got married when she was 20. She's been married for 55 years. And she made a decision when she got married that she was not going to have kids. And this was based on the fact that she had a very difficult childhood. She did not have a lot of joy as a child. She didn't have much agency and she couldn't really make decisions for herself. And so she made the choice not to have kids,

which really strikes me as something to remark on because nowadays to make that decision is one thing, but to make that decision in the late 60s, early 70s is extraordinary, right? Yeah. I mean, like for you, mom, in the period of time when you were having kids, did it ever occur to you

not to have kids? Never, never. It's almost like did the sun come up, you had kids. I mean, it was just like that. I mean, it never occurred to me, but I remember one couple that we knew who didn't have children. And what they did, they got into rose gardening. And so they spent a tremendous amount of time

on the rose garden and studying roses and all kinds of things. So they plowed themselves into the world in a certain way. And I always thought to myself, that's their compensation. And actually, when you girls all left home, that's when I started really gardening with a passion.

And I can, thinking that it's a, there's something maternal in the nurturing and the nature that is a compensation for having children to take care of. But for her, she found a way to be a mother through food and through nurturing the world. And that's a great gift. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. It's exciting to know where she came from and how she's taken what was a hardship and

turned it into an enormous strength. Hey, speaking of recipes, there's one food that Ina Garten hates and it's cilantro. Some people hate cilantro. I mean, I would say like 12% of America hates cilantro. Explain that to me. You explain to me where you got that statistic from. Well, I made it up. But what I'm saying about it is that you have to check with people about cilantro because

some people hate it. Yeah, that's right. And she says that if there's even a tiny leaf, it really, really bothers her. And I personally cannot get enough cilantro. Same, same for me. But people absolutely say I can't eat it. When we have Ina and Jeffrey over,

we won't be making things with cilantro. We will pretend it doesn't exist. Oh, well, wait a minute. Actually, we just looked this up, and there's actually a genetic reason that some people think cilantro tastes like soap. These particular people have a variation in a group of, we just looked this up, olfactory receptor genes

that allows them to strongly perceive the soapy-flavored aldehydes in cilantro leaves. So Aina must have that gene. And it turns out, mom, that it's present in about 4 to 14% of the US population. So your made up bullshit statistic was spot on. Okay. Where did I come up with 12%?

That's hysterical. I don't know. You pulled that out of your ass and you were right. Okay. Okay. Love you, honey. Love you, mommy. I'll see you tomorrow.

Okay. Oh yeah, exactly. Travel safely. Goodbye. Love you. exclusive access to bonus content from each episode of the show. Subscribe now in Apple Podcasts. Make sure you're following Wiser Than Me on social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok at wiserthanme. And we're on Facebook at wiserthanme podcast. Wiser Than Me is a production of Lemonade Media created and hosted by me, Julia Louis-Dreyfus. This show is produced

by Chrissy Pease, Jamila Zaraa-Willa Williams, Alex McCohen, and Oja Lopez. Brad Hall is a consulting producer. Rachel Neal is VP of New Content, and our SVP of Weekly Content and Production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles-Wax, Jessica Cordova-Cramer, and me. The show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with engineering help from James Barber and our music was written by Henry Hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlegel and of course my mother Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser Than Me

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