Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus - Listen Again: Julia Gets Wise with Ruth Reichl

Episode Date: November 26, 2025

Because Thanksgiving is basically Ruth Reichl season (the holy trinity of food, family, and feelings) we’re serving up a rerun of Julia’s lovely conversation with her from Season 1.   On this episode of Wiser Than Me, Julia gets enlightened by 77-year-old food writer, magazine editor, and author Ruth Reichl. From her infamous New York Times review of Le Cirque to greenlighting a controversial David Foster Wallace article in Gourmet, Ruth is as gutsy as they come. Ruth talks to Julia about living with a mom who has bipolar disorder, processing grief through food, and why you should always do things that scare you. Plus, Julia asks her mom Judith for a recommendation on what to cook when Ruth accepts an invitation for dinner.   Follow Wiser Than Me on Instagram and TikTok @wiserthanme and on Facebook at facebook.com/wiserthanmepodcast.   Keep up with Ruth Reichl @ruth.reichl on Instagram.    Find out more about other shows on our network at @lemonadamedia on all social platforms.   Joining Lemonada Premium is a great way to support our show and get bonus content. Subscribe today at bit.ly/lemonadapremium.    For exclusive discount codes and more information about our sponsors, visit https://lemonadamedia.com/sponsors/.    For additional resources, information, and a transcript of the episode, visit lemonadamedia.com.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonada Hey everyone, Julia here. Since it's Thanksgiving, I thought it would be the perfect time to revisit one of my favorite conversations from season one with the amazing Ruth Reischel. She's a food writer, magazine editor, author, and an all-around culinary icon. Ruth and I have a warm and funny conversation about the way food shows up in moments of joy and grief, and how doing things that scare you can sometimes lead to the most meaningful parts of life. And as a special treat, we're sharing a bonus clip at the end of this episode, something that only Lemonada Premium listeners have heard before. Whether you're cooking, traveling, or just

taking a break today, I hope this feels like sitting down at a really great table. Thanks for being here, and we'll be back next week with a brand new episode. When I was about 28, I got pregnant for the first time, and I was crazy happy. I got pregnant easily. I felt very fertile, very womanly. And then, quite late in the pregnancy, my husband Brad and I discovered that this little fetus was not going to live. So that was emotionally devastating, as you can imagine, but it got worse because I developed an infection that landed me in the hospital. And I mean, this whole thing was just a complete nightmare. Of course, my mom flew out to be with me. And before she left, she told her best friend Ellie that she was coming out to be with me. And naturally,

the first thing that Ellie said to her was, so what are you going to cook? After a couple of days, I finally got out of the hospital and I came home to recuperate. But I wasn't allowed to get up out of bed yet. I was, as they say, bed ridden. but my mom cooked. She made this incredible, cozy chili in a cast iron skillet with cornbread on top in the pan. And she and my husband Brad set up a little card table at the foot of the bed and the smell of that cornbread and the chili was so wonderful. It just filled the room and the whole house and my heart really. Because, Because here's the thing. I couldn't eat. I wasn't yet allowed to have solid food. But it didn't

matter. It was the best meal ever. And I didn't even eat it. The making of it was so comforting. It was so embracing. Food is central to the traditions of my family. I would think that to most families, that's the case. I relate food, especially to my mom. She's a great cook. This is one of my greatest memories around food, even though it has sort of an odd kicker, really. Like my sweet niece, Fia, says, before a meal, we'd like to give thanks to everyone who had a hand in bringing this nutritious, delicious food to our table.

Isn't that a lovely prayer? I am so thankful to have food. God knows plenty of people don't. And I'm also so thankful that today I'm talking with food writer Ruth Reichel. Hi, I'm Julia Louis Dreyfus, and this is Wiser Than Me, a show where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. Oh, man, are we in for a tasty treat today? I am talking to Ruth Reischel, who does so much that's impossible to describe her as any one thing. She is an actual fucking polymath, a celebrated chef, a restaurateur, an early mover and shaker,

and what I guess you'd call the farm-to-table kind of food movement, she can correct me on that when we get going. She reinvented the role of food critic at the L.A. Times, and The New York Times, and as editor, she reinvented Gourmet Magazine, which is where I first fell in love with her, deeply in love with her. I was obsessed with Gourmet. That's where she published actual food literature by people like David Foster Wallace, which is no surprise because she's also a fancy-ass writer herself, writing nearly a dozen books, amazing cookbooks, revelatory memoirs like Tender at the Bone, and a novel. She's won seven James Beard awards, which is like the Oscars for food. And she's earned a reputation as a totally subversive

democratizing force, an activist in the world of food. She's also a daughter, a wife, and a mother, and she's obviously wiser than me. Holy shit, Ruth. The idea of being wise, just it's daunting. It is daunting. So pretend we're just having a conversation. Okay. So first of all, are you comfortable saying, your age? Yes. You can't think of yourself as young anymore when you're 75. And that's a very strange idea to me because I don't feel like an old person. Yeah, you don't look like one either, if you don't mind my saying. Well, thank you. My biggest problem with getting older is, you know, there are things that you think of like when my cats die, will I get more cats?

because they would outlive me. It's funny. I've had the same thought about my dog, George, because I figure he'll live like 14 years, and then I'll be into my 70s, or I'll be 75, let's say he kicks it then. Do we get another animal? Yeah. So you think about things like that.

I mean, you actually think, will I be around when X happens? Right. I mean, that's the big thing I mind, because I hate the idea of not. you're, you know, I never want to miss a party, you know. I'm having so much fun in this life. I just, I'm not ready to give it up. Yeah, I hear that. There's a lot of joy to be had. I mean, it's funny because, I don't want to get morbid, but, you know, I had breast cancer a few years back. And when I got the diagnosis, which was so fucking terrifying, but one of my first

thoughts was, I don't want to go. I don't want to leave. I do not want to leave. I do not want to leave. And it was sort of what you're talking about. I want to, I'm, I am not ready for an exit in any sense, you know? Exactly. But you've survived it, right? Oh, yes. Yes. Yes.

Yes, I am. Touchwood. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah, I'm five years out now. So that's a good thing.

First of all, the way you write about food and your food memories, and I was talking about this with my husband, Brad, whom you know. And he was saying that it reminded him of writing about music. What is your process to write about food in such a way so that people feel it, taste it, experience it? What is that process for you, if you can break it down? I don't know if you can. Well, I can try. I mean, in many ways, food is my music.

You know, I mean, the kind of pleasure that other people get out of music, I get out of food. and it just gives me endless joy. And I have always wanted other people to understand that here is this simple pleasure. You know, it's there. It's available to all of us, all of the time. Right. And I really believe that it's important to be open to the little pleasures of life. I mean, I think that's probably the secret to living is to be aware when you,

you taste a strawberry that, you know, it's a moment of grace, that you're in the world. I mean, or if you're out walking in the rain and just that feel, I mean, all of those things are a way that we can experience joy. And I grew up in an America that didn't care about food, didn't appreciate food. You know, American food was a joke in the 50s. And I, And, you know, I lived in New York, and I was surrounded by all this really wonderful food. And I kept sort of like wanting to say to people, here, here it is. Right. So I spent a lot of time thinking about how do you describe the intangible.

And, you know, the more you think about it, the more you understand that I have no idea if you taste what I taste. Right. Of course. Yeah. It's such a personal, you know, it's going on in your mouth. And who knows if anybody else in the whole world tastes what you taste. So I always tried to write about food in ways that transcended flavor. I mean, saying that something tastes like lemon isn't very useful if you hate lemon or lemon doesn't taste. I mean, I love lemon. Me too. If lemon doesn't, taste the same way to you as it does to me, how is that useful? But if you say, when I have fresh lemonade, it feels to me like walking in the rain beneath the lilac bush, or it's as good as

that shower you take when you come in from a run. And then you're sort of telling people what the experience of it is rather than the flavor. Right. I spent a lot of time trying to think about how would I describe this flavor in a way that would make sense to someone who basically didn't, wasn't able to taste. So you're sort of connecting it to experience and to memory and you're getting in the inside of it in a way, in that sense. Yes.

And you're trying to take experience. that we all know. What is it like on the first day that it snows and you go outside and you haven't seen snow for a year? Yeah. Yeah. What is it like to catch a snowflake on your tongue? That's a useful way of describing eating a souffle, you know, the way it just evaporates. Right. Oh, you're so right. That's amazing. Have your taste buds changed as you've got to gotten older? Probably, but I'm not aware of it. Really? It's like being the frog in the pot of boiling water. It happens so gradually that you haven't noticed it got hot. But like when you were younger, were there foods that you loved or hated that you feel differently about now? Or is it

sort of remained? Well, I, you know, I've only really ever hated one food. And the truth is that I don't hate it as much as I used to. I have always loved. I have always loved. hoathed honey. What in the living fuck are you talking about? I can't stand honey. I just hate it. Really? It makes it, it's like it makes my whole body quiver. I just can't stand that taste. But I can tolerate it now. And I, you know, when I was a kid, I really couldn't. I used to hate honey when I was little, but as I've gotten older, I've grown to like it a lot. Incomprehensible to me that someone could like honey. I know most people do. God, I mean, like, if you could describe honey, your experience with honey, how would you describe it?

I would describe it as, like, leaping into a mud puddle, which turns out to be deeper than you thought it was. Oh, the bees now hate you. No, they're happy because I'm not stealing their honey. Yeah, it's true. You don't want you to steal their, honey. No, they don't. They like me a lot. Yeah.

That's amazing. God. So what's the best, since we're dancing around the ideas of experience and wisdom and so on, what's the best advice you've ever gotten? Well, let me see. When I was, I had been a freelance writer, I was living in Berkeley in a commune, and I was asked to become the rest of, restaurant critic of the L.A. Times. And I was very reluctant to move to Los Angeles, to take a job. I mean, it was 35 and I'd never had a real job. I'd always been freelance. I had become very good friends with MFK Fisher. And I told her that I had gotten this job off her and I was going to turn it down.

And she said, you take that job. You are polishing every word you write. as if it were a gym. And you need the experience of going to a newspaper where an editor says to you, I need 15 inches and I need it in an hour. And you do it. And it's not the best thing you ever wrote, but it's good enough.

And tomorrow it's going to be lining someone's birdcage. And you just need that experience. You need to learn to write fast and to not have it be perfect. Not to be precious about it. Yes. And I took the job. And I think it was a piece of advice that transcended, you know, take that job.

It was about perfection in some ways. I see. You know, as an editor, I have known so many writers who can't turn the work in because it's not perfect yet. And you can waste your whole life looking for perfection. because nothing will ever be perfect. No book is ever really finished. You know, you could keep making those sentences better. So, I mean, the advice that she gave me essentially was don't ever think that perfection is your goal because it's not.

It can't be. There's more with Ruth Reichel in just a few moments. Hey, Prime Members. Did you know, you can listen to Wiser than me, ad-free on Amazon music? Download the Amazon Music app today to start listening, ad-free. Black Friday at Macy's is officially on. It's the best time to get ahead on your holiday shopping so you can eliminate any possibility of last-minute scrambling. Macy's has cashmere sweaters starting at 4999 for the someone in your life who loves

wrapping themselves in softness, sipping tea, and leaning into the finer comforts of life. Take 50% off select beauty products from tart, keels, and more for the playful glam enthusiast or the self-care ritual keeper. And for the kids on your list, Macy's has Lego for up to 40% off. And the best part is, when you buy your holiday gifts at Macy's, you can make the season even brighter by rounding up for big brothers, big sisters. 100% of the funds go directly to supporting these one-to-one mentoring relationships. Macy's has already raised over $13 million, creating more than 280,000 mentoring moments so your holiday shopping can make a real difference in a child's life. Macy's Black Friday is the perfect time to save big on top gifts for everyone on your list, including you.

Get a head start and finish your holiday shopping early. The Macy's Black Friday sale is happening November 10th through November 29th in stores and online at Macy's.com. The air's crisp, the holidays are creeping closer, and before the to-do lists really take over, it's nice to slow down. Go for that long walk, hit the pumpkin patch, save a little. the calm before the chaos. Quince has you covered with cozy layers that look timeless, feel luxurious, and make holiday dressing and gifting a low lift. They have these incredibly soft $50-dollar Mongolian cashmere sweaters made for everyday wear, denim silhouettes that never go out of style, silk tops and skirts that add polish, and down outerwear built to take on the season.

Oh, and their Italian wool coats, the cuts field designer, and the quality rivals high-end brands, but without the high-end markup. Every single thing on their website feels curated and so thoughtful. They really are such a special brand. By working directly with ethical top-tier factories, Quince skips the middlemen and offers prices 50% less than similar brands. Step into the holiday season with layers made to feel good, look polished, and last from Quince. Perfect for gifting or keeping for yourself. Go to quince.com slash wiser for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada, too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com slash wiser to get free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash wiser.

It's fall, which means your skin's about to start acting differently. The air gets colder, the wind picks up, and suddenly your dewy summer skin feels dry and dull. Updating your makeup for fall isn't just about new shades, it's about switching to hydrating foundations, cream blushes, products that actually protect your skin while you wear them. Whether you're opting for a simple, just enough routine or a full festive fall glam, Thrive Cosmetics is your go-to for bringing the look to life. Every product is 100% vegan, cruelty-free, and made with clean, skin-loving ingredients. They've got this brilliant eye brightener that's basically your antidote to seasonal dullness.

The sun's setting by 5 p.m., your serotonin's dropping, but your eyes still bright. It's one of those swipe it on and instantly look alive products, and it's waterproof too. Plus, every time you use your favorite Thrive Cosmetics product, you're doing more than enhancing your glow. You're helping others shine too. Thrive has given over $150 million in product and cash donations to over 600 giving partners, so your purchase directly fuels real impact. Complete your fall look. Go to thrivecosmetics.com slash wiser for an exclusive offer of 20% off your first order.

That's Thrive Cosmetics, C-A-U-S-E-M-E-T-I-C-S dot com slash wiser. So last Christmas might not have gone exactly as you planned. Maybe someone gave you socks from the gas station or a cheap candle that smelled like old buttered popcorn. Maybe you even re-gifted something once and you got caught. But that's the thing about Christmas. Every year is a new chance to get it right. This time can be different, so give a gift that people really want, aura frames. ORA frames are the world's smartest digital picture frames.

You get all of the photos from your phone beautifully displayed at home. Invite all your loved ones to add photos from anywhere, anytime. It's personal, meaningful, and a gift that keeps everyone connected long after the holidays are over. They are incredibly quick and easy to set up. It only takes a couple of minutes. You can play live photos or 30-second videos with audio and even react with cute emojis to show you love a photo, send congratulations, and more. You can preload the frame before it even ships, add personalized messages, and keep adding photos and videos straight from your phone. With unlimited free photos and videos, all you need is the Aura app and a Wi-Fi connection.

Share memories effortlessly, whether it's big events or everyday moments and watch them appear instantly on the frame. Every Aura Frame comes in a premium gift box ready to give with no price tag. It's thoughtful, simple, and keeps your loved ones close, no matter the distance. For a limited time, visit AuraFraFrams.com and get $45 off ORA's best-selling CarverMatt Frames. Name number one by wirecutter by using promo code Wiser at checkout. That's A-U-R-A-Frames.com promo code Wiser. This exclusive Black Friday Cyber Monday deal is their best of the year. So order now before it ends.

Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. So complicated women. So your mother was a very complicated person. Oh, my God. Yes, yes. She really was. And she was bipolar.

Yeah. You know, as one of her shrinks said to me about the worst spike polar case he had ever encountered. I mean, she was really. I mean, the highs were really high where she didn't sleep for weeks and the lows were she would go to bed for six months and read the same book over and over and over again for six months. But, you know, if you have a really crazy parent, one of two things happens. They either destroy you or they make you strong. And, you know, I literally still, I wake up every morning grateful that I'm not my mother. You know, and I'm very aware of my good fortune in being sane. And that's a piece of great good fortune. And if you recognize your fortune early in your life, and I knew it from the time that I was about eight or nine, that my mother was deeply unhappy and I wasn't,

there's a real measure of happiness. I mean, I feel like I am basically a happy person and that that happiness comes from knowing that I don't have the same burdens that my mother did. Was your dad a happy man? He wasn't unhappy. Uh-huh. My dad was a sort of classic European intellectual.

And I don't think happiness even figured into his idea of what life is. I didn't and don't have parents with as bad a mental health issue as your mother. But my father, who's since passed, as oh god he was a true narcissist in the clinical sense so i can understand what you're talking about is sort of recognizing it and i've spent a lot of time in my own life trying to somehow fix that with him but there was something nice when i realized that's him and that's not me and away from that is where i live you know separate yes

Yes. And that's a very big step. And I think there was a point in my life where my mother was inside my head. And I can't even tell you, I wish, if I knew how I exercised her, you know, I could change the world. I don't know how it happened. But there was a point when suddenly she just didn't have that power over me anymore. And I was an adult, you know, at the time that that happened where she and I were just truly separate. So does that mean you didn't talk to her as you got older? No, no, not at all. It just meant that when I did talk to her, she didn't have that power over me anymore. I mean, my first husband and I moved back to New York after college. And my parents were so in our lot. me. My mother was so in our life that we finally just realized we had to leave. I knew I couldn't

live in the same city as she did. But my feeling, my sense, when I would go home, I would go home to New York. And as I was knocking on the door, I would have this feeling that when the door opened, I would turn back into eight-year-old little Ruthie again. You know, and that I would be right back where I was. And it's why I had to keep her out of my life. Right. And then there was a time when I could open that door and walk in as me. And stay you. And stay me and be the competent grown-up person that I was. And when did your mom pass? I was in my mid-40s when she passed. And then your dad after that? Oh, no, he died earlier. Oh, he died earlier. Were you in charge of taken care of her? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. When I was at the LA times, my mother would call me like

12 times a day. Okay. And she would say things like, there's no food in the house. You have to come to New York and go buy me food. And I'd say, mom, the Jefferson Market delivers, call them up. So was she, she was battling her mental health illness even to the very end, right? Or was she a little more stable? No. She had a period of stability. And I could tell you how that ended, but it's so tragic. I won't. But she did have a few wonderful years. Oh, that's nice. As an old person, really wonderful years, where she was, you know, where we would all like to be, which is like halfway into the first martini. She was just a little bit high. Uh-huh. And she could stay there. Stay right there. She stayed right there. Oh, wow. Since I've been somebody

who's been on the receiving end of criticism, negative, and pot. Yeah. And probably, positive. How did you reconcile your power as a critic? How do you come to terms with that yourself? I kept a photograph of a young couple on my bulletin board, which I, you know, looked at it every day when I was writing reviews. And I imagined that they were people who didn't have very much money, and they saved up all year to go out for one great meal on their anniversary. And I imagine every time I was tempted to hedge my bets and say something nicer than I really felt a bad restaurant, I would look at them and think, they're going to go there because you said that. And they kept me honest. So you felt an obligation to the consumers

out there. I did. I mean, I felt like, you know, that's who I'm writing for. That's who's paying me. And, you know, I'm sorry if, you know, my reviews hurt people. On the other hand, you know, most restaurants want to be reviewed. And I have to tell the truth. And if I can't do that, I shouldn't be doing this job. Those reviews really, they have an impact. Oh, yeah. And, you know, I mean, it's unfortunate because people love bad reviews. I mean, people really, the consumers love to read those, you know, these really nasty reviews. And it's easier to write nasty reviews than it is good ones.

You know, I mean, you can be very funny writing mean reviews. But, you know, the real obligation is to the consumer. And the other obligation is to the people who are really talented and who run restaurants and work really hard. And it's not fair to them if you're saying that someone who's only doing a mediocre job is better than they really are. Right. You know, I'm glad I don't have to do it anymore.

I'm really glad. That's a lot of, that's a different hat, isn't it? It's a different hat. And it's, I don't think, a particularly fun one. And I should say that, you know, when I started writing reviews, it was a different hat. it was a very different time. You know, I mean, chefs didn't have PR people. Yeah, they weren't celebrities for the most part.

They weren't celebrities. And it was a much easier time. And then sort of halfway through my career, that all shifted. And then I started wearing the disguises. And, you know, I mean, when I got to New York, I really was the enemy. Did you wear a wig? I wore many wigs. Oh, my God.

Did you take pictures of your stuff? There are a few pictures. I mean, mostly I didn't because I didn't want them floating around out there. Yeah. The best disguise I ever had was as my mother. Yeah. Because I had her clothes and I had all her jewelry and I got this. My mother had short gray hair. Yeah. And I got this short gray wig. And I took a picture and sent it to my brother. And I had never thought I looked like my mother. But Bob's response was, I've never seen that picture of mom before. Oh, really? Yeah, and I really looked like her. And then I behaved like her, and it was weird. Really? Yeah, it was very, I mean, my mother was, I mean, like, I am a person who, in my real life,

I have never sent anything back in my life. I mean, I just don't do that. Wait a minute. You mean you don't send food back? If it comes and there's like lots of hair and things in it? I've never gotten lots of hair. Well, I'm trying to. I'm trying to think of the worst-case scenario, you know, or bugs or something.

You just won't. I don't, you know, I am not a squeaky wheel in real life. I'm just not. My mother, on the other hand, sent everything back. The drink wasn't cold enough. The soup wasn't hot enough. Whatever it was, it went back. And you were dying.

And I was dying. My father and I were both dying while mom were sending this stuff back. And so there I was. being my mother and, you know, imperiously sending everything back. It was kind of fun. You're very direct, though, Ruth. You may not be a squeaky wheel, but what impresses me about you is how direct you are. I know. It's odd. I mean, I don't think of myself as direct, but I know I am. No, you are. I am. Yeah. In a way, I like very much. I am not a complainer. I see. I'm just, you know, if someone says to me, how was it? I will say, well, it really wasn't very good.

Yeah, there was a lot of hair and bugs in it. There were bugs in. What about this big piece of glass? I had to go to the ER afterwards. Oh, God. In your business, I mean, you've worked in a world where people can be incredibly misbehaved and entitled. How have you managed to navigate these douchebags?

And by the way, I work in a world that's similar to that. too. And I'm wondering, how do you think you've done that? I don't know. You know, I mean, being at Condé Nast was really something because you want to talk about entitled people. Oh, my God. I mean, the stories that the drivers would tell you about, you know, what happened in their cars, what people did to their cars. Really? I think I was part of the only editor at Condonest who took the subway. And I once had the great joy of making my publisher come on this subway with me.

Who, Sy Newhouse, King? Not Syner, no. His nephew's wife was my first publisher. We were somewhere and there was like traffic. And I said, oh, come on, let's just take the subway. And she was like, oh, my God, you expect me to take the subway? And you made her do it. And I made her do it.

I said, you know, okay, you know, we can take this. I wait, it'll take 10 minutes. or we can like wait for your stupid car to come and it'll be an hour. Right. I don't want to waste an hour. So she very reluctantly came down into the subway with me. But they were just to be a real object lesson. I mean, because when I got to Conday Nest, one, I thought, this is not the rest of my life.

At some point I'm going to get fired as everybody at Conday Nest gets fired eventually. And so I better not get used to being a prince. I'm not going to be a princess my whole life. So why do it now? Why even get used to it? And so I was very aware of the fact that this was not real life. It was not my life. I didn't want to do that.

I didn't want to be that person. I didn't want to be any of those people. They made me sick. They really did. So that's how you navigated them. Yeah. You paid no attention to them. Yeah, yeah.

In that sense. Yeah. I like that. You know, I mean, one of my favorite moments at Gourmet was I sent two of my people off to do a story about this halal butcher where you chose your own goat. And then they blessed the goat and killed it in front of you. And they come back to the magazine carrying this warm goat in a big plastic bag. And they run into the office. and there's an elevator door that's just closing and they rush in with this bag of reeking goat

and Anna Wintour is in there. I was just going to say, please tell me Anna Wintour was in there. Anna Wintor was in there. And they said she was just so horrified. She backed into the corner. You know, nobody was supposed to even get in the elevator with her. If she was in the elevator, you were supposed to wait for the next one. That's hilarious.

But nobody said anything about a goat carcass coming. into the elevator. Exactly. They said other people, but not a goat carcass. Not a goat carcass. That is a great story. I love that. God damn it.

I wish we had a, like my dad used to say, I wish we had an oil painting of that moment. I know. Oh, shit. We'll get more wisdom from Ruth Reischel after this super quick break. Stay tuned. Here's a hard, cold fact. In sub-Saharan Africa, four million teenage girls drop out of school every year because they get pregnant. Teenagers everywhere are full of restless

curiosity about sex and big feelings. But for most of these girls, there's no access to birth control, and when they get pregnant, school ends. Some even risk their lives trying to end the pregnancy. Too many die. Now, here's the good news. There's an organization called MSI reproductive choices. These people go to the ends of the earth to give girls contraception and control over their futures. They've got top ratings from Charity Navigator and Candid, evaluators of nonprofits. And for just 26 bucks, you can give a girl contraception for four years. That's four years to finish school. Four years to dream a little bigger. Go to MSI United States.org. That's M for Modern, S for Safe, I for Informed. Modern, Safe, Informed. MSI United States.org.

Or even easier, just text the way. word wiser to 511-5-11. Text wiser to 511-5-11. MSI United States.org. Give a girl a chance. Text fees may apply. The holidays are chaos, especially when you're trying to find the perfect gift. Everyone's got an opinion. Magazines are publishing their 75 must-have creams, social media is telling you to slather on something without an ingredient list, and every brand claims to be clean and green. It's a wild west of skin care wrecks and honestly, who has time to sort through it all? That's why Osea's Ocean Body Glow set is such a gift-giving no-brainer. It's the rare combo of luxury and integrity, genuinely clean, sustainably sourced, and clinically proven

to make skin glow. Every product feels like a mini spa moment. This three-piece limited edition gift set is so, so, so lovely. It includes three Undaria algae products, body wash, body oil, and body butter. This is a gift you can feel great about giving because OSEA is vegan and cruelty free certified and prioritizes recyclable packaging like glass. Plus, they were the very first company to sign the Compact for Global Production of Safe Health and Beauty Products, an initiative from the Environmental Working Group. Chances are you'll want to grab one for yourself, too, but hurry before this luxurious limited edition set sells out.

Save $40 on the set at Oseaamalibu.com and get an additional 10% off with Code Wiser. Give the gift of glow this holiday with our listener discount on Osea's clean, clinically tested skin care. Just use Code Wiser for 10% off your first order sitewide at Osieamalibu.com. That's 10% off your first order with code wiser at osseamalaboo.com. Sometimes you think, wow, people once got to learn from Frida Kalo herself or study under

Florence Nightingale. Well, now you're getting to live in the age of Amy Tan and Alice Waters, both Wiser than me guests, by the way. That's really something. There are some people you just want to keep learning directly from, that you're so grateful to exist at the same time as them. With Masterclass, you can learn from remarkable thinkers like this. Take Diane von Furstenberg's class, for example, which has 17 video lessons walking you through everything from finding design inspiration in nature to staying true to yourself. With Masterclass,

you can learn from the best to become your best. Plans start at just $10 a month, and that gives you unlimited access to over 200 classes. They're taught by the world's best business leaders, writers, chefs, and more, and every new membership comes with a 30-day money-back guarantee. Learn to cook with soul and purpose from Madhur Jafri. Explore storytelling and truth with Roxanne Gay or find your voice with Jody Foster. These are bite-sized lessons with big impact, the kind that fit into even the busiest schedules, and they really make a difference. three out of four surveyed members feel inspired every time they watch Masterclass. Right now, our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual membership at Masterclass.com slash wiser.

That's 15% off at Masterclass.com slash wiser. Masterclass.com slash wiser. This show is sponsored by Middy Health. Looking at how your mother and grandmother experienced menopause can offer clues about your journey. Opening up those conversations with the women in your family not only helps them feel seen, it deepens your understanding of where you come from and what might lie ahead. Modern medicine still doesn't fully grasp what's happening in women's health, but by noticing patterns, being in tune with your own body and taking charge, you can figure out what's going

on and get the support you need. If you are in midlife, feeling dismissed, unheard, or just plain exhausted by a health care system that doesn't seem to get you, you're not alone. For too long, women's serious midlife health concerns from perimenopause to menopause have been brushed aside. In fact, 75% of women seeking help for these issues go entirely untreated. It's time for a change. It's time for Midi. Midi is a women's telehealth clinic founded and supported by world-class leaders in women's health. And Midi is the only women's telehealth. health brand covered by major insurance companies, which means they can make high-quality, expert care accessible and affordable for all women everywhere. Their clinicians offer one-on-one

consultations listening to your unique needs and providing holistic, tailored solutions. Midi combines expert, data-driven care with guidance to help you tune into your own body, understand what's happening, and take charge of your health. Ready to feel your best and write your second act script, visit join midi.com today to book your personalized insurance covered virtual visit. That's join midi.com. Midi, the care women deserve. You wrote that piece for, I think it was for allure about your body and being heavy as a kid and or you called yourself fat. And that getting fat took up a lot of energy in your life. How do you push past that voice in your head to seize the opportunities of being a food critic or whatever.

How did you relax? Have you been able to relax about your body and the idea of gaining or losing weight? Or is that still very present in your life? I would say a little bit of both. You know, I did have this remarkable experience of meeting a man who I then married, who likes big women. And so for the first time, in my life, that little voice that said, don't eat that, don't eat that. And that little voice, it seems to me, makes you just eat more. You know, the more you look at something and think I shouldn't eat that. Yes. We started living together, and that voice went away. And my experience of this, I don't know if it's true, but my experience of it was that I woke up one morning and I had lost

35 pounds. And it was just because I had stopped obsessing about it. The relationship between food and women in particular is so fraught and in a way that is completely unjust. And I certainly battled my weight when I was younger. And I always felt sort of like this dumpy person as a youth. I felt kind of, you know, once I became a teenager and I was uncomfortable with weight and I, and I over ate. I was an overeater to a certain extent. But as I've, gotten older. And maybe there's something about having kids, too. I don't know. The relationship that I had with food has changed dramatically in a way that I'm relieved by, you know, really relieved. Yeah. I mean, the thing about weight is it's also about, are you pretty?

I know. Which is so important when you're young. And, you know, I just kept hearing over and over again, you'd just be so pretty if you just lose some weight. Right. And my mother, you know, got me to smoke when I was 12 because, you know, if you smoke, you won't eat. Oh, Lord, Jesus. You know, for me, the big lesson was don't say no. And, you know, if I feel like I can always eat anything that the no isn't there, then I don't have a problem. Oh my God. Do I agree with that? That's why in this very drawer of the desk that I'm talking to you on, it's my chocolate drawer. I love chocolate. And I have a piece of chocolate every single day. And that's a game changer. Exactly. Let's talk about that transition for you becoming the editor at Gourmet. You had never edited a magazine before and a pretty, I don't know,

know, what can we say it was at the time? Tony? It was a Bible. It was like, you know, it was like the American food Bible. How did you make that kind of leap? Because I think you were a little fearful of it, yeah? No, I was very fearful of it. I mean, because I didn't think I knew how to do it. How I made the leap was two ways. One was an older woman, a friend of mine, and I said, you know, Paul, I would love to do this, but I'm not quite ready yet. You know, maybe in a year or so it would be the right job. And Paula said, Ruth, it's never the right time. You have to take the opportunities when they come along. If you don't take it, it won't come again. So just do it. The other piece of it was, and this is probably the best advice I have to give anyone. Oh, goody. It's the things that

frighten you that are the things that you have to do. Oh, God. When something really scares you. You know, you have to do it. And, you know, it's like every, every scary thing. I mean, running the David Foster Wallace piece was terrifying, which was why I knew that there was no way I could walk away from it. The first major review, the review I'm known for, which is the one of LaSerc, where I wrote it in two takes, one is myself and one is a person in disguise. I thought I was going to get fired for writing that piece. I mean, I didn't. I didn't sleep for two nights before that piece was printed. Really?

I was so frightened that I was convinced that I hadn't ever been to the restaurant. I mean, I made myself so crazy that I thought I had made the whole thing up. But wait a minute. For those who are listening, can you describe you, so it was two different pieces that ran the side? No, it was one piece, but I said, LeCirch is two different restaurants depending on who you are. So I went many times in disguise, and they treated me like dirt. And then the last time that I went, I didn't go in disguise. I didn't make the reservation in my own name, but I didn't go in disguise.

And I knew he had a picture of me. And sure enough, the owner sees me. And I went with my nephew who was working on Wall Street. I got him to make the reservation. And he said, well, I could only get a 9.30. And I said, okay, let's go at 8 and see what happens. And we walk in at 8, and there's this huge group of people waiting for a table. and the owner, Sirio, sees me, and he parts them like the Red Sea, takes my hand, pulls me forward and says,

the King of Spain is waiting in the bar, but your table is ready. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. And I said to my nephew, oh, yeah, the King of Spain is waiting in the bar. And he turns around, he goes, he is waiting in the bar. I saw him on TV last night. Oh, my God. I can't get over this. Okay. And so then he says, you know, can we make you a menu? And there's, you know, white truffles and black truffles and champagne. And, you know, they give us a table for four, for the two of us. And so I write, this is what happens if you're the restaurant critic of the New York Times. But if you're just an ordinary person going there, don't think they're going to be very nice to you because they aren't. You're looking at that picture of the couple. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So go ahead. So nobody had ever done anything like that. Nobody at the New York Times had ever done anything like that. And I knew that my editors were really nervous. And I wasn't quite sure why they were so nervous. But I could feel it. And I knew that it had gone all the way that the editor-in-chief had read that. And he didn't read restaurant. They had vetted it with him. And the next day I found out that it was the publisher, Punch Salzberger's favorite restaurant.

that they really were terrified. Wow. My editor later called me, and I was so nervous I couldn't even pick up my messages the next day. I waited until like 4 o'clock in the afternoon to actually listen to my messages because I knew. Yeah. I didn't go into the office.

I was just, and the first message of the day was from my editor who said, well, everything is fine because the first phone call that Punch got this morning was from Walter Annenberg, a very big deal. Walter Annenberg, who called Punch and said, that's the best review the Times has ever run because apparently he had once gone there and not been recognized and been treated in the dirt. That's incredible.

So what did this experience teach you? Well, again, when something frightens you, you have to do it. It's worth doing. And, you know, that you always have to push the envelope. That it's really important. to have new experiences. And the other part of that is,

and this is the other big piece of advice I have to give people, is the only thing that really keeps you young is constantly doing things you don't know how to do. If you spend your whole life doing things you already know how to do, you get old fast. The one thing that I've realized, you know, doing this crazy-ass podcast talking to older women is the subject of,

Endings. That subject comes up a lot in conversation. And how do you deal with endings in your life? You know, be it jobs, which I know you've had multiple endings on, and marriage and losing people that are close to you. I mean, I think I know the answer to this, but I'd be curious to hear your take on it. How have you gotten through big shifting endings if you have? Well, you know, I go into the kitchen. You know, I mean, that's sort of where when I'm really in a bad place, I just start cooking. And it focuses me. It's a meditation.

It's a meditation. And, you know, it reminds me that I'm lucky to still be alive. And I think the only way to honor the memory of the people you love is to just live your life to the fullest. You know, and going into the kitchen sort of reminds me of that. It's like being around all the aromas and, you know, the wonderful tactile sense and slicing. And it sort of brings me back to into the world. Mm-hmm. Can I ask you a really selfish question?

Because when I was reading my kitchen year, you know your recipe for pound cake? Uh-huh. So I'm going to make that one. as soon as I get home. But I was thinking I might add orange to it. Oh, yes. You like that? I do.

I love that. And so would you add like a tablespoon of orange zest? I was thinking maybe like a tablespoon of orange zest and maybe half a cup of orange juice because we have orange trees. So I could use our oranges. Well, I would certainly add, you know, the zest of one large orange. I'm not, I have to look at that recipe because I'm not sure what orange juice would do to it. The acid may change the balance.

Uh-huh. I would start by just using zest. Okay. And not juice. Okay. I'm pulling out the book for those who are listening because, oh, God, and I have to make those eggs and the potato. Oh, Jesus.

You're making me hungry, woman. This is so much fun. I can't tell you how much fun I'm having talking to you. And I'm going to be in L.A. for three months this year. Oh, yeah. So speaking of which, so I was hoping maybe I could get you guys to come up to Santa Barbara. You could come up and I was about to say, I'll cook for you, but maybe we'll cook together. Yeah.

You want to? Sure. I would love to. I would love to. Okay, great. All right. Now I'm already freaking out thinking about what we're going to have. Don't freak out.

Hey, can I ask you something? Do you remember when we were at our mutual friend's house having dinner and I brought a key lime pie? Did you hate it? No, I love keelon pie. It was a great keelon pie. Why would I hate it? I don't know. I was worried.

I wasn't sure. I am not a big sweets person. That may be it. So I don't, I mean, I never eat a lot of sweet things. Although I have to say, I've pretty much devoured your really wonderful marmalade. Oh, well, guess what? You are getting so much more of it. It is so delicious.

We can make it when you come if we've got oranges. and season, that would be fun to do too. That would be great. But can I just, I am not a chef. I mean, I'm not a train chef. I'm just a person who likes to cook. Okay. I mean, you know, I, you know.

I hear you. And I did, you know, I was part, I had a restaurant, but it was a collective. We all did everything. So sometimes I was the chef and sometimes I was the dishwasher. Okay, got it. So you're a dishwasher. I could use a dishwasher. I'm a good dishwasher.

And I even like washing dishes. Do you really? I do. Well, if you're good at it, you are employed. But if you're not, I'm going to 100% fire you. Okay, so now there's just, I'm going to ask you a couple more little really quick questions. Tell me something that you would go back and tell yourself at the age of 21, if you could. You will be happy.

Oh, that's a good one. Is there something you go back and say yes to? I don't think I've ever turned down anything that I wish I hadn't. No. Oh, how nice. Is there something that you wish you'd spent less time on? Not really. I mean, I'm sorry to say this, but I don't have a lot of regrets. I was just going to say, you're not a regretful person. And so what are you learning now? What am I learning now? I've actually been trying to do a whole bunch of new things now. Yeah. You know, I mean, right after I left.

gourmet. I wrote a novel, mostly because I thought, I don't know how to do this, so let me see if I can. And I've just turned in a new one. And let me say it, it gets easier the second time and much more fun. I mean, one of the things I've learned with that is I find writing very difficult. It is difficult. I like having written, but writing itself is often awful. I did not find writing this novel difficult. I found it pure pleasure, just a joy. What do you attribute that to? I don't know, but my agent said you're never allowed to write

anything that isn't fun again. Interesting. To have been writing professionally for, what, 50-some years and suddenly find out that even the act of writing can be fun. Wow. Amazing. Thank you, Ruth. This was so much fun. I feel like, you know, I could just sit here all afternoon.

I know. I feel the same. I feel like this is a conversation to be continued, which you and I can do between us. But this has been very kind of you to be so honest and open and you're just an inspiration and on so many different levels to me and I know to others, of course. Well, thanks. Really fun for me. And I'll see you.

I'll see you in LA. Yeah, please. Love it. Okay. Mm-hmm. Thank you. Okay. Bye.

Bye. Oh, my God. I just agreed to cook for Ruth Reischel. Why the fuck? Did I do that? Oh, my God. I need to ask my mom what to make. I got to call my mom.

Hi, honey. Hi, Mommy. How are you? All as well. All is well. And how about with you? Everything is great. I mean, tons to catch up on.

I want to tell you about my call with Ruth Reichel because, mom, I wish you could have been in the conversation with us. You would have been so delighted to talk to her. You're cut from the same cloth in many ways. It was incredible. Well, first of all, I'm glad to know how to pronounce her name because I've always called her Ruth Reichel. I know.

So it's Reichel. I know. It's Rachel. Exactly. But the same cloth, can you put that on my tombstone? Yes. Exactly. No, no, I'm going to kidding.

That makes me feel better about how I boil eggs and everything. Yeah. Yeah. Every time I boil an egg now, I'm going to say, this is exactly what the way that Ruth would have done it. Right, exactly. God, there's so much. I have so much to tell you. So first of all, she was talking about growing up in the 50s, and she said American food was a complete joke in the 50s.

And so I was remembering what you said about Didi, my grandma Didi, and her mom, because great-grandma Bessie grew her food and canned her food. And your mom's reaction to that, she thought that was appalling. Well, it's true. And also, I think it's a reaction against, you know, in other words, I think my mom's reaction was she saw her mother. the kitchen all the time doing all the stuff all about meals and mother's generation that who was there were more flappers and they wanted to have some fun so frozen foods and canned foods and and dresses that weren't homemade got it and i do think that the generation that my mother that was my mother's thing of the frozen foods and the canned foods was terrible food and my mother

used to make baked beans. But what she did was just, she opened the can and dumped it, and then it was just, she put a lot of brown sugar in it. And that was our baked beans. And then there were our gelatin molds also, which, by the way, have been underrated. Because I had to say, it's a great thing to make. Perhaps when you come to visit next, we'll make it. I will say, I find the notion of it repulsive, but I'm happy to try it. So this is another thing that she was talking about, she talks about it food and the making of food as a meditation. When she is sort of at her lowest, she goes into the kitchen. And that's been a sort of a savior to her. And it's an interesting thing because certainly in our lives together, when there have been

challenges, and we've had a few, we often talk about what we're going to make. Absolutely. And I remember at 9-11 that we sat watching that picture over and over again. And I remember feeling that the bottom had dropped out of everything. And then I thought, oh, my gosh, it's Matt's Artman's birthday. And so I called Ellie and I said, what are you doing for Maddie's birthday? And she said, well, we were going to go out for dinner, but of course, we're not now. I said, oh, Ellie, please, please, please come over here. And she said, great.

So I made a meatloaf and mashed potatoes and green beans and applesau. and angel food cake. I mean, I was there cooking and it was like there is a tomorrow. There is something to live for. Yeah, very important. Well, speaking of that, mom, so she and her husband, Michael, are coming to L.A. They're going to be there for a couple of months. And so I said, oh, my God, I have to have you up to Santa Barbara.

And I said, we can. And then immediately I'm thinking, oh, shit, when am I going to cook? And I said, well, we can, I said, I can cook. And she said, we can cook together. And I said, yeah. Okay. Okay. Oh, my God.

I know. So you have to start thinking, mom, what can I make? Put your thinking cap on and report back to me. We have to think about that. Oh, gosh. Oh, Julia. That is going to be priceless. That's going to be absolutely priceless.

Yeah, I know. I'm excited. And I did give her orange marmalade last year because we had dinner with Jim and Carleen and I gave her orange marmalade. and she remembered and was saying how much she loved it. So needless to say, she's going to get a case of that fucking marmalade when I see her next. Well, no, no, no, not a case. Half a case.

All right, half a case. I know you get the other half, Mommy. You get the other half, mommy. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, yeah. By the way, making the marmalade, how about that?

That is such a precious thing to do. You have the oranges right there and they grow out of your actual soil. Yeah. And then you get them and then you do them. And it's the best marmalade in the world. world. It's pretty good. But, you know, Grandma Didi would not approve, but that's fine. We've brought it back around to the real thing. That's right. That's right. That's right. It wasn't frozen and wasn't bird's eye. It wasn't bird's eye. But we'll get over it. Oh, shit. Okay. Love you,

Mommy. I love you. Talk to you later. Okay. Bye. Bye. sharing a bonus clip with Ruth that only Lemonata Premium listeners have heard before. Don't go anywhere. Have you ever given someone a present that becomes their absolute favorite thing in the world? Maybe it's a blankie your child refuses to sleep without, a robe your partner reaches for every morning, or a pillow your best friend carries everywhere. There's no better feeling than knowing you've given someone that kind of comfort. And the easiest way to do that? Cozy Earth. Cozy Earth's mission is to transform your

five to nine, the hours that matter most, into the coziest, most comfortable part of your day. With luxury bedding, loungeware, and sleep accessories, every member of your family can have their own little sanctuary. When everyone in your household has a space that feels calm, soft, and sacred, life just feels better for all of you. Take their bamboo rib-knit classic long-sleeve pajama set. It provides extra warmth for cooler evenings with a rib-knit texture that adds a touch of sophistication and drape to your pajama collection. Crafted from the same luxurious bamboo viscose as their best-selling rib-knit collection, this set offers optimal comfort and style. Then there's the bubble cuddle blanket.

This faux-fur blanket makes the perfect centerpiece for your living room or bedroom. Best of all, Cozy Earth offers a 100-night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty, so try them out, and if you don't love them, return them hassle-free. But for real, you won't want to. Black Friday has come early at Cozy Earth. Right now, you can stack our code wiser on top of their site-wide sale, giving you up to 40% off in savings. That's CozyEarth.com code wiser for up to 40% off in savings. These deals won't last, so start your holiday shopping today. And if you get a post-purchase survey, be sure to mention you heard about Cozy Earth right here. Wrap the ones you love in luxury with Cozy Earth. So here's a question. Who cares?

Really, who cares about hunger or clean water or girls trying to get an education in the middle of a conflict zone. Who notices families struggling to rebuild after disaster or communities just trying to survive? As a listener of this podcast, chances are you do. And so does Care, the global humanitarian organization that works in over 100 countries with a special focus on women and girls. Like in Syria, when an earthquake destroyed Heba's farm. As a single mother, she refused to give up. With CARE's support, Heba rebuilt her farm, learned new skills, and was once again able to support her family. Care tackles the toughest challenges, restoring clean water, delivering life-saving medical supplies, keeping girls in school, feeding families during famine, and helping

entire communities rebuild after disaster. They don't just talk about making a difference. They make a difference every day. In some of the most challenging places on earth. But care can't do it without you. Help provide life-saving care around the world. Donate today at care.org slash wiser. All right, as promised, here's a bonus moment from My Chat with Ruth, where she talks about learning to collaborate as the editor of Gourmet and later when writing my kitchen year. If you like this little extra bit, you can get more by subscribing to Lemonada Premium for ad-free listening and bonus episodes of Wiser Than Me. Just tap subscribe on Apple Podcasts or head to Lemonada Premium.com to subscribe on any app.

That's Lemonada Premium.com. Welcome to another premium episode of Wiser Than Me. Hi, I'm OHA, one of the producers of the show. This week, we're bringing you a little bit more from Julia's conversation with legendary food journalist Ruth Reischel. In this exclusive clip, Ruth tells Julia about her love of collaboration and how it completely transformed her 2015 cookbook, My Kitchen Year. Writing that cookbook is another example of, do we have time? Can I keep talking? Please, I'm loving this so much. I mean, it's an example of sort of what I learned being the editor of Gourmet, which is that,

that, you know, when you're a writer, you're right alone most of the time. Right. And what I learned at Gourmet was the joy of collaboration. And so when I wrote that cookbook, my idea was it was going to be a little tiny, like a book of hours. You know, no. And so when I sold it, I said to my editor, I don't want photographs or anything. I just want it to be like a little book that people can take to bed and read at night, you know, with the recipes in. it. And she said yes. And then I turned the manuscript in and she said, no. Oh, no, we need

photographs. And I was like, well, first of all, it's going to put it off a year because it's a seasonal book. So we're going to have to take a whole year to shoot it. And she said, that doesn't bother me. And then she said, but you just have to find a photographer you want to work with. So I called my design director from Gourmet, who I love dearly, and said, who should I get as a photographer? photographer. And he said, you should get... Annie Leibowitz. No, you should get Mikkelvong. And I said, why? And he said, because he's really easy to work with. You'll work well together.

And he doesn't, he won't bring a lot of lights and stuff. So I called Nicol and said, would you do this? And he said, oh, I'm done with cookbooks. I really don't want to do cookbooks anymore. But send me your manuscript. So he called me the next day and said, okay, I've read your manuscript. And I'd like to do it. But here are the rules. It's just you and me. I'm not bringing an assistant. You're not having any help. We're not having prop people. We're not having anybody fussing around with the food. It's just you and me. And you'll just, you'll cook the food. I'll come up for three days in each season. You'll cook the food. We'll put it on a plate that doesn't look good. It doesn't look good. But it's just going to be the real thing. And I said, great.

And we made a contract with him that he would do 20 shots for each season. But when he got here, he just started taking pictures, wandering around the landscape. And he took hundreds of great photographs. Wow. And when we went to design the book, the wonderful designer just started using all of these photographs. And it totally changed the book. Oh, it's like a scrapbook. It feels like a personal scrapbook.

Yeah, exactly. And between Mikkel's photographs and, you know, this really talented designer, you know, they came up with something that was so much better than I come up with on my own. And, you know, that's the real joy of working is when each person adds their piece to it and you end up with something better than you started with. Oh, I'll say. Hallelujah. I couldn't agree with that more.

And that's in evidence in the book. And I've had that experience. Of course, I don't, I'm not a food writer. But I've had that experience as an actress. And I can tell you that it doesn't get better than that. Yeah. Joyful collaboration working towards something. And look what comes out of nothing.

And then all of a sudden it's this glorious thing. And you're working in. tandem with people. It's incredible. And I think in the book, too, what I also love about the book, not just how the food is photographed. It all looks beautiful, but how he photographs your hands and you from behind. And it feels the focus, it's unbelievably artful. I love it. Yeah, he was wonderful. But also, that's what we did at Gourmet. You know, I mean, it's like, it wasn't like I went in there and changed it. I just went in and said to this group of people, what are we going do, you know, and we very much did it. And that was why giving it up was so difficult because

Oh my God, I bet. You know, we became such an amazing team. Yes. And, you know, I would go in and I would go into a meeting and I would say, what if we did a Paris issue, right? And then everybody would start juggling the balls. And I remember leaving every meeting and thinking, I wonder what we're going to end up with. And it was just the joy of finding what the issue really was going to be. And it just kept changing. I mean, it was wonderful.

It was just so much fun. And I really miss that working with people, you know. Are you in touch with those, all your people from? Not, well, not everybody, but there's a big group of us that's, You know, I mean, I am in touch with someone from at least one person from Gourmet every day. You know, I mean, for all of us, it was a, well, not, I mean, I think there were some people who, it was not such a great experience. But for most of us, it was really, you know, as good as it can get in a job. It was such a spectacular magazine and what you did with it was so, I would imagine, leaving.

it was gutting. Yeah. Every show in my life that has ended, you know, old Christine Seinfeld and particularly Veep, you know, it was gutting. Yeah. Even though it was the right thing to do and the time and et cetera, but it was a similar experience of everybody working towards a common goal and everybody bringing their best selves and a team.

It's like a team. It's like a sport. team even, you know? Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And you, I mean, you had that with Seinfeld, and I sort of, I mean, I don't know much about acting, anything about acting, but, you know, I sort of imagine that in a good place, it's like that where you're all sort of, you know, have each other's backs and, you know, and it's like when we, we on the other side of the camera, I see, you know, the laugh reels where

you're all laughing. I am particularly bad. You have this sense of how much fun everyone's having. Yeah. And, you know, I mean, as a writer, you just, you don't normally have that experience. So when you have it, then you have to give it up, it's like, uh. Work has been a savior to you in your life. Oh, I do not understand how people don't work. I really, you know, for me,

the greatest privilege is working, you know, in doing, you know, work that you like. Yeah. I mean, I think every job I've ever had I would have done for free. I mean, you know. I feel the same. It's like it was an extracurricular activity when I was in high school and now, what? You make a living doing this? Yeah.

I feel the same. Don't tell my agent that I feel the same. It's true. That does it for another premium episode of Wiser Than Me. Thank you so much for listening and subscribing to Lemonada Premium. We'll be back next week with another episode of Wiser Than Me. And as Julia says, if there's an old lady in your life, remember to listen up.