Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus - Presenting: Julia interviewed — On with Kara Swisher

Episode Date: November 6, 2024

Wiser Than Me will be back with a brand new episode next week. In the meantime, we wanted to share an episode of another podcast where Julia was a guest – On with Kara Swisher. In this episode, Kara and Julia discuss how in-depth conversations with iconic older women have radicalized her, her concerns about the commercialization of art films and why she thinks comedy is risky – but still very much possible. Listen to On with Kara Swisher every Monday and Thursday from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hi there, it's me, Julia Louis-Dreyfus. We're back for season three of Wiser Than Me. We're ready to bring you even more wisdom from the magnificent old women I've had the pleasure of talking to this season. And get a load of this, we've added some fun new items to our Wiser Than Me merch collection. Along with our classic tote bag and kitchen tea towel, we're introducing a new Wiser Than Me branded hardcover notebook and an exclusive partnership with Lingua Franca, a New York City-based

luxury and sustainable clothing brand. You got to check out the gorgeous hand embroidered sweatshirts, cashmere sweaters for you and your dog with Wiser Than Me phrases. Yeah, cashmere for your dog, I did say that, browse the whole collection and start shopping today by visiting wiserthanmeshop.com. Hey folks, Julia here. The Wiser Than Me team is taking a break from our usual programming this week because it's election week. And we want to share another podcast we think you're going to really enjoy.

It's hosted by my friend Kara Swisher, an award-winning journalist and a really tough interviewer who covers tech, politics, and media on her podcast, On with Kara Swisher. In the episode, we're about to share Kara interviews me. And we talk a little bit about everything, including the importance of human connection, the commercialization of art films, death, why it's still very possible to create great comedy in 2024, even if it's risky, and how making this podcast

and having deep conversations with older women has radicalized me. I love talking to Kara because she's smart, she's funny, she knows a lot, and she's a great conversationalist. And in just the past few months, Kara's interviewed powerhouse women like Nancy Pelosi, Hillary Rodham Clinton, Rachel Maddow, Roxane Gay, and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. You can listen to more of her show by clicking the link in our show notes or by searching for On with Kara Swisher in your podcast app. Okay, here's the episode. Hi everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.

This is On with Kara Swisher and I'm Kara Swisher. We've had a slew of power women on On and today we're keeping up that streak. Comedian and actor Julie Louis-Dreyfus. She's obviously a comedy legend. I'm an enormous fan. She's won 11 MAs, a record of eight. She got for playing some of TV's most iconic female characters on three different sitcoms, Elaine Bennis in Seinfeld, Christine Campbell in The New Adventures of Old Christine, and

of course, Vice President Selena Meyer in Veep. I don't know which one I like the most. I like all the characters. I suspect Selena is my favorite character because she's real, actually. I've met people like her. But my kids like Seinfeld. I love Seinfeld. It stays fresh even today and she's probably my favorite character on that show besides Jerry Stiller and her scene. If you haven't seen it, it's on YouTube of her and Jerry Stiller cracking each other up is one of the finest bits of

comedy I've ever seen. She's been honored with the Mark Twain Prize for American humor and the National Medal of Arts. She is a national treasure, obviously. And now she's winning awards for her new podcast, Wiser Than Me, where she gets life lessons from women over 70. Jane Fonda, Fran Lebowitz, Gloria Steinem, Patti Smith, Ann Lamott, who I also recently spoke to. They've talked about what they've learned and how they've coped with the hard stuff including death and grief Which is also the focus of Julia's latest film Tuesday And so fittingly our question this week comes from psychotherapist and host of where should I begin podcasts Esther Perel? I'm excited to talk to her and I think you'll be excited to hear from her. ["It Is All"]

Hi. Hi, Kara. How you doing? Thank you so much for doing this. I appreciate it. Oh my goodness, it's my pleasure. The movie was astonishing, I have to say. You were fantastic in it. Oh, thank you very much.

And I love anything about death, so I'm very excited about it. Yeah, I do too, actually. But first, I want to talk about the podcast, your podcasting empire. Hardly. Oh, you're doing really well. You just wrapped up the second season of Wiser Than Me, which you interview women over 70. A lot of celebrities have podcasts these days, obviously. A lot of them are different

from yours. For example, I think Smart List is basically a buddy comedy. Talk about how you decided to do this and the way you conceived of it. Well, it just, I watched the Jane Fonda documentary. I don't know if you've seen it. Sure have. Yeah. Yeah. It's phenomenal in my view. And I was just riveted. And it's after watching that, I really did think, Oh, God, where are all the old women? We're not hearing from these women. Right. I mean, we are really not hearing from them.

And I wish there was a place where we could just only hear from old women. And so that's where it sort of began, and I thought, well, maybe I'll do it. And, you know, and that's how it started. It was born out of a curiosity, not any desire to do a podcast necessarily, but just to actually hear from older women. And then I sort of developed it with my college roommate. And it's been a real, a labor of love and passion. It's been very popular.

It's very high up on the rankings. Were you surprised by that? You know, I was surprised by it because I wasn't really thinking about how it would do. I was just thinking about doing it, if that makes sense. I wasn't going after it with that ambition. That doesn't mean I'm not ambitious, of course, but it really means that I was just trying to think of people that would be interesting to talk to at great length.

How do you look at the podcast medium as a way to do that? A lot of people get in and they get out of it pretty quickly because it's hard. It's a marathon. It's a real marathon. Yeah. And some make money, some don't. But they can be very lucrative.

I've had a really good run in that regard. But how do you look at it as a medium to communicate this? Because there's lots of ways you could have done this. You could have had a talk show, television. Yeah, I know. Well, I mean, I guess because sort of like the conversation we're having now, which feels relaxed, if you and I were in front of an audience right now

and having to talk and I was in hair and makeup and all that crap, it's a different, it's an absolutely different content of conversation. And I actually enjoy talking to people on their podcasts when we sort of get into depth about things because I think it's, I just find it interesting to communicate that way. Right, conversation. Yes. And so I thought that this medium would be conducive to those kinds of intimate conversations where we maybe get a little bit more underneath, underneath, period.

Also, we don't video the podcast at all, so there's no pressure on these women who may have a feeling of self-consciousness because they're older. I'm not suggesting they should, of course, but in case, just to make it as relaxed as possible. Right, so a conversation, this sort of my dinner with Andre kind of vibe to it. How do you pick the subjects in the approach? Like, what does your goal say with Jane Fonda? You talk to her about ambition.

Well, it's really dictated by the women themselves. With my team's help, I do an enormous amount of research in prep, and so that I can come to this conversation and not squander it. So it's really their lives and what strikes me is interesting to delve into. I mean, talking to somebody like Isabella Allende versus Bonnie Raitt or Patti Smith or Beverly Johnson, these are, you know, they've had wildly varied lives from one another. So it's just, it's entirely based on their experience. That said though, there are a particular set of questions that I love to hear them answer. I mean, I always open by asking how old they are

and how old do they feel. And there are all these subjects that I like to delve into, like loss, for example, ambition. And then at the end, I might say things like, what would you say to your 21 year old self? Or what do you wish you'd said no, or yes to that kind of thing? Yeah. So you talked about being radicalized by these women or more radicalized by these women.

I think that was the quote. Who have you been most influenced by and what surprised you in the interviews? Which you didn't expect. I don't know. Isabel Allende is a crack up. I don't know, Isabel Allende is a crack up. I don't know what. Well, Isabel Allende, oh my God, what a phenomenal human being. I was struck by her complete joy in life. I was overcome by it.

And she talked about being in her 80s as being the best thing ever, and she meant it. I have a very good life. I'm very happy. Oh, God, that's so nice. I'm so happy, Julia, really. That's so nice. I'm so happy to be alive. I'm happy to be here.

I'm happy to be looking through my window right now. I live very close to a lagoon, and I see the ducks and the geese and it's fantastic. What do you think the best part about being your age is? That you don't have to please anybody. Oh yeah. Only the people you love and the people you care for, but not the world, not everybody else. You don't have to follow anybody's lead. You don't have to follow fashion or nothing. If I try to look good, it's because it pleases me,

not because I'm trying to please anybody else. I don't care, really. And that was just like, oh my God. It was a completely different lens through which to consider aging. different lens through which to consider aging. Gloria Steinem, who I spoke to for this season, obviously was just extraordinary. She actually talked about how as you age, and I'm gonna butcher this, she was talking about how as you age, your inner girl becomes more realized. Do you think that women become more radical

as they get older? I suppose nothing is true all the time, but I do think it's possible that it's often true because we outlive the stereotypical expectations of marriage and family and this subordinate role if that's still around or, you know. I mean, I think just as we are maybe more ourselves when we're before 10 or 11 years old and we're little girls who are climbing trees and saying, you know, I know what I want, I know what I think. And the feminine role

hasn't descended upon us yet. We may also be more ourselves at the other end of the feminine role. And I always think it would be great if an army of gray haired women could take over the earth. Well, then the earth would be a safe place in my view. You know, it would really would be. It would be much better. It would be much better. There is a theme with all of these women, all of them, which is a shedding of what's expected of you, which as a woman, which is particularly fascinating to me and important to realize.

Yeah, I believe the technical term is no more fucks left to give. Thank you. But it's not necessarily a negative thing, right? Yeah. No, it's fantastic. It's like, I am, there's less bullshit. I say what I feel. I know what I know.

I know more. And that's the whole conceit of the podcast. They know more. So come on, let's listen to them. Come on, woman. I will get to your movie. Come on woman. That was the best end line I have to say. One of the things that I think the reason it works, this is a lot about you

and how it changes your thinking, whether it's about the movie industry, women's rights, becoming more political. Have these conversations changed you yourself, given you're looking for wisdom, w, wisdom, you know, wiser than me, or is that wisdom being put to use in your own life? Well, I will say that my reflections afterwards, after I actually have these conversations, I think a lot about them, and I will often, or most often, write with my husband the story at the beginning of the podcast that sort of will be a thread into the conversation. And so I would say certainly it's, I don't know if this is good or not, but it's, I've

always been a very private person in a lot of ways and I've made a bit of a shift in terms of sharing aspects of myself. I don't know if I'm ultimately going to regret that, but I have done that in a way that I find surprising. Right. You realize you don't have that much time for regret anymore, so it's okay. It's fine if you let them out. But you also call your mom and talk to her about them. Oh, yeah.

How does that go? Well, this occurred to me to do when we were developing the show because my mother is very intelligent, curious. She's completely with it. She's 90. And she has been my beloved mother. I don't know what else to say. And she's very intellectual. And so I thought, my God, of all the women, I must include my mother in this in some

way. So the idea of downloading with my mom feels right because I download with my mom and I enjoy her. I thought maybe people would enjoy it. And she's getting a huge kick out of it. Would you bring her on? I don't believe you have, correct? I think that would be, I'm waiting for that one, honestly. You are. That's something I'm considering, I suppose. I think you have to. I've had my son and my brother on and stuff like that. They've been, well, some of the most popular ones, which is interesting Really actually my son. Mm-hmm. He's very wise for a young person

But I would love to hear your mom and her thoughts on it. I think it would be really good Because she's a character in your podcast I mean podcasts are about characters in any case. We got a question this week from someone who's a fan of your podcast Psychotherapist Esther Perel host of the podcast, Where Should I Begin? I don't know if you listen to it, it's fantastic. And you'll hear her question for you. Oh, God. It's okay.

Hello, Julie-Louise Dreyfus. So much of your work on the podcast is about starting conversation that the world needs to listen in on. And that really resonates with me. How do you think about the role of community, of the collective, in working through some of the very issues that you are processing on the show? The importance of the collective in addressing aging or loss or love or grief, hope, desire. What is the relationship between the I and thou in the process, in the processing of such complicated

existential wonders? Thank you. She's a therapist. She's a well-known therapist. I know. I know. And she's a fantastic. Kara, you answer it. Are you not smart enough? I'm a dumbass. No, you are not. You said that to me. I couldn't understand her. You are not a dumbass. Stop. No, I'm making a joke. I know I'm not a dumbass. But, well, I mean, to be honest with you,

I think she answered the question in her question. She was talking about community and the collective, the we in terms of dealing with issues and addressing loss and love and so on and so forth. And the answer is yes, the collective is the way out. I think actually her question speaks to something that's come out of these conversations, actually particularly with my mother, which is the key is connect, connect, connect. I don't mean plug your computer in. I mean connect with human beings.

There's everything to be said for community and everything not to be said about isolation. And we're in a land of isolation now, which is paralyzing and toxic. So I think there's nothing but value in finding ways to take action to connect with other people in every sense. I think people are desperate for it. Desperate for it.

Desperate for it. And agreement. One of the reasons I always say one of my podcasts, Pivot Works, is because I'm connecting with a man who I disagree with in a way that's kind. And we disagree a lot. And people are desperate for that. They're desperate. They're desperate for a kind conversation.

You know? Yeah. It's funny, I remember once, this is neither here nor there, but it was a while back and I was by myself. It was a weekend where I sort of didn't have plans and it was a while back and I was by myself. It was a weekend where I sort of didn't have plans and my husband wasn't there and I was sort of alone. And I remember that I went to the grocery store and I found myself having an in-depth conversation with the checkout woman at the register. And I started asking her questions about her life.

And I realized what afterwards what was happening, which was it was, I was lonely, and I became very, very interested in her life. Why wouldn't I be interested? Everybody has an interesting life, but I remember noting that, like, oh, that's interesting. I really sought a human being out. No, it's an important story.

Years ago, you know what your podcast reminds me of? Spaulding Gray did a show at the Kennedy Center many years ago where he brought people from the audience and just interviewed them just randomly. And it was brilliant because he said everyone's story is interesting if you just talk to them. And it was, you know, he's story is interesting if you just talk to them and it was you know He had his own troubles as you know, how's the life ended but

it was the most riveting conversations I've ever seen because And that's what you're talking about here. And that's what I'm talking about. And by the way, that's what something my mother does and To sometimes great frustration to me and my sisters because she'll talk to anybody and ask them everything. And as a result, she's a vibrant human being. But it does mean it takes a while to get out of any situation. We'll be back in a minute.

This show is brought to you by Macy's. This holiday season, Macy's is partnering with big brothers, big sisters of America to empower young people through the power of mentorship. From November 1st to December 24th, you can be a part of this meaningful mission to support children from under-resourced families, helping them thrive through life-changing one-to-one relationships with caring adult mentors.

It's easy to get involved. When you shop at Macy's, you can round up your purchase in-store or make a donation online to support this incredible cause. That's right, while doing the gift shopping we'll all be doing anyway, you can help make an impact. Every contribution makes a difference in building brighter futures for the next generation. Visit macy's.com today to learn more. And while you're there, check out some great holiday deals to make your gift giving extra special this year.

Calling all sports fans, Spring Hill Suites by Marriott is the official partner of U.S. Soccer. The hotel is everything you need for when you're on the road supporting your favorite team. At this all suite hotel, you'll find generous room sizes that can comfortably accommodate up to six people, allowing everyone to unwind and refresh. Plus, they provide complimentary hot breakfast so you can start your day energized.

And for all the in-between moments, Spring Hill Suites has all the space and amenities you need to feel right at home. Anyone who travels a lot knows that you do, in fact, have a checklist in your head for all the little things a hotel needs to make you feel truly at home. At Spring Hill Suites you can hit the gym to stay active while you're away, grab snacks from the 24-hour market, and when you need to get some work done, settle into the West Elm furniture in your Suites workspace. Check, check, check. So the next time you and your crew are traveling for a match, find space for the whole team at Spring Hill

Suites by Marriott, a member of Marriott Bonvoy. Visit SpringHillSuites.com to book your next stay. Got anyone coming to stay with you this holiday season? Well, now you can spoil them more than ever with Brooklinen's remarkable sheet sets. You've definitely heard them mentioned here before. They are revolutionizing the bedding space. Between guests coming to stay, lazy mornings with family, and the general holiday chaos, having the right bedding makes all the difference, and that's why Brook Linnon is here.

Brook Linnon's products aren't just beautiful, they're made to last. They hold up through countless washes without losing their softness or comfort. With praise from places like Wirecutter and millions of happy customers, these sheets have proven their value time and time again. And Brooklynan makes it easy to give your space a refresh. With their bundles, you can style your bed exactly the way you like, mixing colors, textures, and layers to create a look that feels just right. Whether it's your own bed or the guest room, their essentials are designed to be lived in, not just admired. So refresh your space today with Brooklyn's award-winning textures, layers, and home essentials. Visit in-store or online at brooklinnen.com. That's B-R-O-O-K-L-I-N-E-N.com.

Get 15% off your first order today. So speaking of connection, let's talk about Tuesday, dealing with existentialism and grief. Just to let people know, this is not a comedy, but it is funny in many ways. It's actually very funny. A giant, Julie Louise Dreyfus is my favorite, Julie Louise Dreyfus.

You handle your tallness really well, but also, and smallness. You didn't like smallness much. But the you going through the grass as a tiny thing was, ugh, I felt the borrowers all over again. Anyway, but it's about death, literally in the form of a talking macaw, I believe. That's the bird. I have not seen a movie like this in, I think, for some reason, the John Malkovich movie

was the last one it reminded me of, of the feelings I had during it. It's obviously a fantasy. It's surreal in many ways. It feels, you know, like a Garcia Marquez book or something like that. Can you talk a little bit what attracted you and the reason for taking it on? So the script was sent to me by A24 and I, you know, it was crazy, bananas, this script. But the themes of the film, the parent-child bond, grief, loss, death, dying, acceptance, denial. All of these themes are incredibly interesting to me as a human being. And so then I met with Dina Opucic,

who is the writer-director, Croatian woman. This is her first feature film. And I met with her just to get a sense of course of who she was and what her intentions were and if I felt comfortable in her hands. And I came away feeling very trusting of her and signed up. God you know she's quite an artist. I'm sure, I know you'll be hearing more from her as a filmmaker. And the animation, of course, was, it was paramount that the animation within the film was expert.

Of the bird. Yes. But I do want to say that within the film, as you say, there's this sort of monster-like bird, macaw thing that is representing death. And a lot of people think that was just CGI. In fact, it was not. It was played by an extraordinary actor, Orinze Kenne. He was a cast member with us. And then what the animators did was they used his performance

and animated over him. And so I always like to give a shout out to Arinsay, because you're not actually necessarily seeing him, but you actually are very much seeing him. Yeah, it's interesting. It's like in Lord of the Rings. Because he was there in that conversation you had at the table.

The actor is sitting there with you. Correct. That's what I thought. That's what I figured. That's what I figured. Amazing, amazing performance by the way. And disturbing at the same time, but also very funny, but very funny bird. But in the movie, a mother and daughter

basically having a conversation with death and about death together. You've been through a cancer treatment. You're a parent. I've had a stroke, my dad died. Talk about what you draw to understand about the depths of grief, because in this case, you're dealing with someone else's death or impending death. Well, I've also lost people close to me.

I've lost my dad, I lost my sister. And so, yeah, I'm certainly keenly aware of our mortal lives. So I brought all of that with me to this. But I think the first thing that really appealed to me about this was the ferocity of the parent-child bond, which it's undeniable and it's enormous. And so I enjoyed that aspect of the script, the lengths that a mother would go to to keep death away. And it really explores that, including by the way, denial, denial of a reality. Yes, not being there.

Not being there. I mean, you know, it's interesting when I heard the description of it, I almost didn't want to watch it because I have kids and the idea of I just, I know, you know what I mean? It's one of those things that I was thinking the other day right before I watched it. I'm like, totally. I have so many kids, I've upped my chances of being upset. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know why it popped into my brain, but one of the things is a grief of knowing

you're going to lose someone. Now we know that with older people, but it's harder. Your character Zora tries to avoid her daughter, selling off bits and pieces of their beautiful things. And then you go to the other extreme, which is barbecuing and trying to eat death, literally, being forced by death to confront it. Can you talk a little bit about that, a little more about the parent-child bond? Because your character is at the center of that and your child is kind of the, Zora is

really the child in the relationship in a weird way. Right. That's what is the dysfunction. Certainly at the start of the film is Zora's daughter, whose name is Tuesday, is really parenting her mother. And the journey, well, there are many journeys within the film, but one of the biggest journeys, I think, is the flip. So that by the end of the film, Zora comes to realize

how she must parent her child in a functional way, which includes accepting the realities of her situation. One of the things that's striking is not knowing the pain her daughter is in, not being aware of the pain until she can hear her as having eaten death, so she has this hearing. Yeah. hear her as having eaten death. So she has this hearing. Well, she has a, I mean, it's very symbolic. It's very metaphorical. It's because of the transformation that happens.

We're talking about this in such a way, I hope it's clear to people listening, because what Zora does is she fights death in an effort to keep death away, and then ultimately sort of becomes... Death, she is. She learns by doing death. She learns by doing. And then realizes that as death, she has to come to her daughter. Yeah.

Oh my God, I can't stand... Even saying it, it still upsets me. I can't stand it. It's like a death doula in a weird way. Yes, which of course there is, which I think is remarkable. And God, I think about that a lot. When I talked with Isabel Allende and we're talking about this thing called death, and I was remarking, because I had actually the gift of being able to be with my dad when he passed away. And I was very much struck by how that waiting and being

with him was not dissimilar from waiting for some child to be born for a birth. And the similarity in those transitions are similar. And I'm not suggesting that one is as joyful as the other. But they are, from a life-living point of view, I was very, and she was talking about that as well. Anyway. Well, what's interesting about it

is she becomes joyful when she's doing death, right? That night of putting people at rest. The people screaming in the background, and you don't get to see a lot of it except for a couple of scenes, was very funny, even though it wasn't funny. You know what I mean? Like, ah! And the bird, bang, bang, bang. I was in hysterics with that.

I was like, oh, that's what would happen if death went away. Death took a holiday, right? Speaking of which. But she gets joyful by doing death. Would you like to have that power? Would you ever? Fuck no. Are you kidding me?

Really? I kind of would. You would, Kara, really? Yeah, because it's kind. It's a kindness. That macaw isn't cruel. That macaw is kind. That's too much for me to bear. Yeah, the pain. I can't handle it. I pass on that job opportunity in real life. All right. Okay. All right. Well, you can do the life part. They're linked together.

So one of the things, I have just one more question about the movie, and then I want to talk a little bit about your longer career, but you finished this movie three years ago, as I said. Looking back, does the idea of come on woman still resonate? Well, actually, it's get up woman. Get up woman, excuse me, get up woman, sorry. And yes, it's almost a mantra. I think it works. It certainly applies to my life.

What's the alternative? You've got to get up. You've got to keep you. I mean we have a limited amount of time. Let's go. Let's get it done We'll be back in a minute Filmmaking can take you anywhere Sometimes it's to a soundstage and other times you get to go abroad to fab places like London or Paris. The only downside to traveling? Your home is left unused while you're off exploring. That's why hosting on Airbnb is such a great idea. It turns those travel days into an opportunity to earn extra income. Whether it's a spare room, a cozy guest house, or your entire home while you're away, Airbnb makes it easy to share what you have.

You're in control every step of the way. Decide when you host, who stays, and how much you charge. Plus, Airbnb offers tools and support to help you feel confident and secure. You might be wondering whether your place is a good fit for Airbnb, but many hosts started with the same question. So if you've ever thought about listing your space, now's the perfect time.

Turn unused space into extra income and give travelers a chance to experience your city like a local. Plus, then you can use that extra cash for your next adventure, wherever your travels may take you. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com slash host. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Let's take a moment to express some gratitude.

Life can get overwhelming, and whether it's friends, family, or even a therapist, it's important to recognize those who support us and to remember to thank ourselves along the way too. Remember, just doing your best is no small feat. Therapy helps us stay connected to that sense of gratitude, even when life feels chaotic. It creates space to reflect on what's going well,

builds habits that nurture appreciation, and reframes challenges with a new perspective. If you've ever thought about starting therapy, now might be the perfect time. BetterHelp offers therapy entirely online, making it convenient, flexible, and designed to fit your schedule. Just answer a few quick questions to get matched with a licensed therapist and you can switch therapists at any time without extra costs. Therapy isn't just for those navigating big challenges. It can also help with everyday things like building positive coping skills and setting boundaries so

you feel empowered to show up as the best version of yourself. Let the gratitude flow with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash wiser today to get 10% off your first month. That's better h-e-l-p dot com slash wiser. Wiser Than Me Season 3 is available ad free when you subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You'll also get access to exclusive interview excerpts from each episode. Subscribe now in the Apple Podcast app. from each episode. Subscribe now in the Apple Podcast app. I want to talk a little bit about your career in comedy. You made a joke at the Mark Twain Award in 2018 about being a dramatic actress that was part of the bit. Damn you, Peter

Hall. What a mistake. But it would be hard not to finish up with a legacy as a comedic actress. We met at the award show where you won the Webby Podcast of the Year for Wiser Than Me, but in your long television career you've won 11 Emmys. You're one of the few actors who has played not one but three iconic television characters, Elaine Bennis, Christine Campbell, and Vice President Selena Meyer. How do you look at each character now? And to me, this is just me and you could have a different take, I'm just an audience member. They have a comment, is it need to be in the boys club? Am I getting that wrong?

And all kidding aside, would it have been easier to be Portia? Well, I mean, all of the characters, the thread between them all is profound frustration, I think is, and of course, aren't you frustrated sometimes? I mean, as a woman, isn't that, you know, it's like, frustration is kind of, for me, a driver, and it certainly is with all of these women. And I would say, you know, Selena Meyer in the most obvious and sort of ultimate of ways. Yeah, but you know that in that Mark Twain speech and I was talking about being a dramatic actress

and you know the truth is that I really do enjoy doing drama and it's actually why I took on this role because I wanted to exercise that muscle again and have an opportunity to show that this is in my wheelhouse. So that joke about the quality of mercy is not strange was actually born out of a true place, truth be told. I'm not going to wade you into the Seinfeld controversy because I think that has nothing to do with you, but I'd love to know what you think is funny now. Everyone seems to have a theory, obviously,

but what do you think is funny right at this moment we're in? That question's funny. I think there's a lot of talk about how comics can't be funny now. I think that's not true. I think comics are funnier than ever. No, that's bullshit. I think that's bullshit. Physical comedy and intellectual comedy and political comedy I think has never been more interesting because there's so much to do.

Well, yes, it's a ripe time. Comedy is risky and it can be offensive, but that's what makes it so enjoyable. Not that it's offensive but that it's risky, that it's truth. It can be very truth-telling and with risk. I just, I don't buy the conceit, I personally don't buy the conceit that this is an impossible time to be funny. Maybe some people aren't laughing at your jokes, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be made. Yeah. So one of the things, Elaine is known for example, with the physical moves, although the dry retorts or the shoves or the dance, but also the retorts, and Selena to me is all feral

facial expressions and wicked verbal cuts. Is it harder to do physical or intellectual comedy? They're of equal strain. The physical comedy sometimes, in my experience, is stuff that I've often found in rehearsal. So it takes a little exploring to find it. But I wouldn't say that it's hard. I just, I would say it's as much fun. Yeah, yeah. There's nothing more exciting than having really good material and then elevating it,

if you can. And if you do it physically, it's just delish. Absolutely. I have just a couple more questions. Seinfeld in particular, for example, which I think you'll probably be best known for, even though I prefer Veep. I know it sounds, I love Seinfeld too.

But it's having this renaissance on Netflix. A lot of young people are watching the show. My son was like, have you heard of Seinfeld? I'm like, yeah. Why do you think it holds up and that younger generations are connecting? Well, I don't know why they're, that it's having this resurgence. I'm delighted that it is. I am. It holds up because it's the human condition. It's undeniably funny. It wasn't fad ish. It speaks to really universal truths and period. It's just like a great show and it'll

always be a great show. Is there a show if you had to introduce someone to it that you would show them first? There's obviously the famous ones, not that there's anything wrong with that, a master of your own domain. Is there any show you would say, look at this one? Well, I don't know, probably something from seasons, uh, four or five when we started to really get our stride. Um, it's interesting to watch the show because it, um, not that I do, I don't really watch the show. Uh, but when it first started, it was slow by comparison and the pace started to pick up and it became more, it just became snappier as it went along.

Maybe the soup Nazi, the soup Nazi was a good one. I think the Briss was one of my favorites, the Briss. Oh, really? The Briss. That's hilarious. There's so many, the subway episode. But one of the things that's interesting is Netflix really paid more than $500 million

for the Seinfeld rights for five years. The contract started in 2021. Did you see any of that money? Not one cent. Okay, how do you feel about that? Fantastic. I would love you to go on about that. I would love you to go on about that. Alana Glazier, who was pretty critical about streaming services, what's your take?

You're going into AI Next for free, just so you know, but go ahead. Good, because I know nothing about it. Look, here's my take on all of this. I'm worried about the corporatization of arts. And I'm, for example, this movie I made Tuesdays with A24, one of the very few, if not the last remaining independent studio making unusual films. I'm worried about that because it's now a lot of executives calling,

and there have always been these executives, but they haven't been on top of each other like a layer cake. And I'm very worried about what that represents for good art outside the box. Because we're not making widgets here. Good ideas are often, well, first of all, they're hard to find. And they, I can tell you one thing,

they're not found by a corporation. Good artful ideas, in my view. Yeah, even though you're a network note, according to Jerry Seinfeld, that was very funny. Yeah, that was funny. That was fantastic. But in 2020, you signed an overall deal with Apple TV Plus to develop new products as executive producer and actor. You've been producer on many of your shows.

What does that mean exactly? How does the deal differ from the ones you've cut over the past three decades? Well, first of all, I really like to, I didn't produce Tuesday, for example, but I do very much like to produce the work that I do because it just gives me more control over the product. And I've been doing this now long enough

so that I think I have experience that's useful as a producer. And so that's important to me. I no longer have this deal at Apple. It ran out. It was finished. And to be honest with you, I mean, they're all perfectly nice, but nothing came out of

it. And that was too bad, but it just didn't, which is often the case with deals like this. Yes, indeed. So what do you do now? Do you go bring your projects, your production company? I don't even. You don't even? No, I don't want the headache of that right now. I just don't. I'd rather do things on a case by case basis. I mean, I'm guessing, you know, probably, yes, I could have a production company, I could be developing material for myself or other people.

That's not something ultimately that excites me. It's too much. I don't need a huge universe like that. I'm not Oprah. Yeah, you're not gonna Reese Witherspoon it, for example. I'm not going to, and this is not my way to disparage them in any way. I'm just saying that's not who I am.

I approach projects very specifically, and that's how I roll. That's how I roll. May I ask what you're doing next? I don't know. Well, you've got a success. I just finished a Marvel movie. Yeah, my son wants to know why you're in the Marvel movies. You turn into a villain from what he tells you.

Well, I'm not allowed to say, Kara, because as you know, let me explain to you something. The Marvel universe, if you're in it, you have to sign an NDA every 3 and 1.5 minutes. And so if I say anything to you right now, a Marvel executive will come and shoot me in the head as I'm speaking to you. And possibly shoot you. He can try. He can try. Yeah, you'll take him on good.

I'll take him on good. Are you kidding? But anyway, I did wrap Thunderbolts. And so that is that I have coming out next year. But in terms of like, what am I shooting next? I'm not sure. I don't know. So let me ask just two more, three more questions very quick. Politics, you're a moderator at the 2020 Democratic Convention. Some very good jokes that some of which apparently they cut.

You can comment on that if you'd like. It was broadcast news to the 10th power doing that thing. I am here to tell you. It was cuckoo bananas. It was COVID. The DNC talking to comedy writers talking to, I mean, it was nuts. Fun. I ultimately, I was delighted to have done it, although terrified.

Yes. What are you doing this, this go round? There's a campaign happening. I don't know? There's a, there's a campaign happening. I don't know if you know that. There's a campaign happening, a presidential. Oh, really? And who's running, Kara? It's a rerun. It's, oh, I've seen that. No, not like this, not like this. I, it could be worse. It could be worse. I don't know. Could it be worse?

Yes. I just interviewed Alexandria O Could it be worse? Yes. I just interviewed Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez last week, and she was like, I'll be arrested, as if it was like Tuesday, speaking of Tuesday. Yeah, and she quite meant it. But do you want to get involved, politics? I am involved, yeah. I mean, at this point, not specifically with the convention,

but I'm involved politically. I do a lot of work in down ballot races, in small races, and state legislatures and so on. And I'm continuing to do that really with a vengeance as we speak. Down ballot is the thing now. It is. It's a lifeline, I think, to saving democracy. Absolutely. So I have two more questions at the end. I want to go back to Tuesday and Wiser. In the end of the film, there's a question of whether heaven or God

or the afterlife exists or not. And the bird says something amazing. But there is an afterlife. The echo you leave. The legacy. Your memory. This. This is Tuesday's afterlife. How you live it is how she lives. What do you think of that? What's your echo, besides an Oscar, obviously, and the Oscar goes to? My echo?

Well, I'm going to say something very Pollyanna-ish. My echo is my two boys and them being good human beings and good citizens. If they are, then my echo is good and pure. That's my answer, period. This other crap doesn't matter. Yeah, I just gave that answer to someone and they were surprised. I was like, that's the only thing. Why would you be surprised? It's so fundamental.

I know. I was like, just them. That's it. Just them, of course. None of this other stuff is meaningful in the same way. It's interesting, but not meaningful. You're right. The last question, you start every episode of your podcast with a story about your life. I think you should continue to do that. I know you're private, but I think it resonates with people. It resonates with me, certainly.

Are you writing a memoir? No, I'm not. If you did, what would the title be? The title would be, What Should the title be? Question mark. That's the title. OK. All right. I think you should do it.

I just pulled that out of my ass. I like it. I like it. I like it. I like it. Anyway, thank you so much for doing this. I appreciate it. And I do hope you do win the Oscar.

Might be nice. Thank you, Kara. Might be nice. You're so nice. Might be nice. I'm so happy to be on this, to talk with you because I listen to your podcasts frequently and so to actually have this conversation, in-depth conversation with you has been really a delight for me.

So thanks a lot. I appreciate it. Thank you so much. On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castro-Rosell, Kateri Yocum, Jolie Myers, and Megan Burney. Special thanks to Kate Gallagher, Andrea Lopezum, Jolie Myers, and Megan Burney. Special thanks to Kate Gallagher, Andrea Lopez-Cruzado, and Kate Furby. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Arruda. And our theme music is by Trackademics.

If you're already following the show, go ahead and do the Elaine Bennis dance. If not, get up woman and man. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more. Hey Wiser Than Me listeners. We want to hear from you. By just answering a few questions on our listener survey, you can share feedback about show content you'd like to see in the future and help us think about what brands would serve you best. And even better, once you've completed the survey, you can enter for a chance to win a $100 Visa gift card. The survey is short and sweet and will help us play ads you don't want to skip and keep bringing you content you love.

Just go to lemonautimedia.com slash survey. lemonautimedia.com slash survey.