Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus - Presenting: Julia on Talk Easy

Episode Date: July 24, 2024

We thought you'd enjoy hearing Julia's conversation from the show Talk Easy with Sam Fragoso. Recorded live at the Aspen Ideas Festival, Julia discusses her latest film, "Tuesday," her uproarious turn as Selina Meyer on "Veep," a few pieces of writing that remain close to her heart, and much more.  You can watch this conversation on YouTube and check out other episodes of Talk Easy wherever you get your podcasts.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

We are so excited to be back for a second season of Wiser Than Me. I have been, and I really do mean this, truly blown away by the support that this show has received. We really do have a lot to learn from the glorious older women in our lives. And to celebrate, I've got a super fun announcement to share with you. Wiser Than Me now has its very own merch. Yah! Merch! Wiser Than Me now has its very own merch. Yeah, merch. Our team has whipped up some items

we think you're gonna love. We're kicking off the collection with a beautiful Wiser Than Me cross-body tote bag. Oh sure, you think you've got enough tote bags, but if you get one more tote bag, a Wiser Than Me tote bag, you'll have room to buy so many more heads of organic lettuce at the farmer's market or carry that second six-pack of Mountain Dew from your

local 7-Eleven all while brushing your teeth with both hands because it's cross-body! Hands-free, baby! What I'm saying is that this could be a life changer and this bag is made by Bagoo so it's super high quality and it's beautiful design features some of my favorite words of wisdom from the show. Head over to wiserthanmeshop.com and get two for yourself and then a bunch more for friends and family. And presto, holiday shopping done early. Lemonade.

Hi, everyone. I want to share my conversation with podcast host Sam Fragoso of Talk Easy. We spoke in front of a live audience at Aspen Ideas Fest just a few weeks ago, and I thought listeners of Wiser Than Me would appreciate hearing it. We cover a lot of ground, including the making of my latest film Tuesday, the timeliness of Veep, lessons learned in my early days in SNL, and a few pieces of writing that remain very, very close to my heart. If you aren't familiar with this podcast, the show has been around since 2016 and comes

out every Sunday. What struck me about Sam's approach is he's both incredibly researched and deeply present. If you enjoy listening to my episode, I'd also recommend his sit-downs with writers Margaret Atwood and Zadie Smith, directors Richard Linklater and my longtime collaborator Nicole Hall of Center, and actors Michelle Williams and Tom Hanks. Those can be found at talkeasypod.com or right here if you search Talk Easy with Sam Fragoso wherever you listen to podcasts. This is Talk Easy.

I'm Sam Fragoso. This is Talk Easy. I'm Sam Fragoso. Welcome to the show. Today, I'm joined by actor, comedian, and now podcast host, Julia Louis-Dreyfus. We taped this episode in front of a live audience out in Colorado at the Aspen Ideas Festival. And to be honest, we've been talking about doing more of these live shows because they're really, really fun to do and they bring a different kind of energy to the tape. And if you haven't heard the ones we've done with Minjin Lee and Britt Marling,

you'll understand what I mean when you hear this one with Julia, because it's just really fun to do these talks that can be intimate and then also very silly in front of a bunch of people. And so we wanna do more of them, and we thought we'd just open the door up to you, the listener. So if you want us to come to wherever you are,

or whatever the largest city is near you, you can write us at sf at talkeasypod.com. That's sf at talkeasypod.com. Also, I should note that if you want to watch this episode, instead of just listening to it, we've actually uploaded the entire conversation to our website at talkeasypod.com slash JLD. That's talkeasypod.com slash JLD. I want to thank the festival again for having us out and putting on this great event. I had never been to the

Aspen Ideas Festival before, but they've been doing it for a long, long time now, and we're very excited to come back next year and do another show. And so with that, here is Jinhee Kim of the Aspen Ideas Festival, very graciously introducing Julia and I as we waited in the wings to go on stage. I hope you enjoy. My name is Jinhee Kim and I help out with public events and public engagement here at Aspen Institute. I'm about three months into the role here, so you can imagine my excitement and a little bit of terror when I was asked to introduce a session with Julia,-Dreyfus and Sam Fragoso.

So to say that I was excited actually was, is a bit of an understatement. Because you see to start with Sam, he has been called the modern day James Lipton, Roy Firestone, and Barbara Walters, which you can see the consistency, they get people to cry and this is why we watch. He elicits emotions even the interviewee isn't expecting from questions that they may have been asked before. The only thing you can be prepared for with a Sam

Fragoso interview is to be unprepared for what you might see or hear or feel. While Julia Louis-Dreyfus needs no introduction, I have the privilege of personally thanking her for being more than what we've all come to know as a comedian and actor. She's actually a true artist of her craft. With an extraordinary breadth of work from Seinfeld

to Enough Said to Veep and to The Most Recent Tuesday, and as a recipient of numerous awards and accolades, including the Kennedy Center's Mark Twain Award and the National Medal of Arts, she is not only a fan favorite, but a force of creativity. Julia has said that she was open to any good material, and I think it's safe to say that we are open to anything, Julia.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus and Sam Pergozo. And I think it's safe to say that we are open to anything, Julia. Julia Louis-Dreyfus and Sam Pergozo. What an intro. Holy cow. Yeah. I didn't really hear it, but I think it was positive. No, no, but it seemed great. It seemed... Are these lights bright?

Yeah. Yeah. Aren't you used to this by now? I want them brighter. Right. I want everyone to see just how tired I am. So just turn the lights up. Hi, Julia. Hi, Sam. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you too. Can we start with your new movie? Sure. I'm going to try to explain it for people who haven't seen it.

It's called Tuesday. It's about a mother and her terminally ill teenage daughter. The child is very much prepared for the end of her life. The mom, your character, is in denial, I think. Until, of course, death visits in the form of a massive talking macaw. Nicole Soule-Northam Yes. Jared Sautner Okay. Am I, everyone with me? Okay. The bird is basically a death doula. And so, when you read this script, I imagine you enjoyed

the fantasy elements of it. But what about its fundamental ideas around fear, mortality, motherhood made you want to dive into this project? Well, the discussion of death and grief and dying, those discussions interest me. And this was an opportunity for me to delve into something dramatic, which also really interested me. This is something, it's work that is unlike other work that I've done. And I liked the fantastical element of exploring these themes. I thought it was a, it's very much sort of a magical realism fairy tale. It feels very sort of Eastern European in the fairy tale sense. And I thought that that was a really interesting way in to consider the various themes of the film.

You shot the film in London, right? Yeah. So you're like this material is asking you to dive into a lot of dark, hard, thorny places. Yeah. And I'm just trying to imagine you in London, away from your family, calling back home to your kids and to your husband. What are those conversations like on the phone? You know, I'm a homebody, so I call home a lot anyway, but there are particular scenes in the film that were rather crushing to try and crush. And so they definitely had an effect on me. I felt a little unmoored,

to say the least. I had to sort of remind myself who I was as actor, as that sounds, but you do have to kind of give yourself over. Jared Ranere How would you do that in these phone calls? Julie Pong I would just want to know what was happening. Tell me stuff about home, you know? Jared Sussman It was normal day to day. Julie Pong I need to hear normal things, you know? Did the dog have diarrhea again, that sort of thing.

Jared Sussman Right, right. Julie Pong Yeah. Jared Sussman You want diarrhea updates? Julie Pong Correct. And believe me, I got them on a daily basis. We have a dog with IBS. right here in the front row. That's exactly what I was going to say. You're balancing, you know, levity and also the gravity of the movie. You told the New York Times that during filming you became slightly unhinged. What does that look like for you? If you'd like to demonstrate it, everyone. It looks like I'm highly anxious, you know. Just anxious, you know. Just imagine high anxiety for yourself. That was me. Hard to go to sleep, hard to calm down because the

scenes were, you know, with a dying child. I mean, need I say more? And that is not a pleasant headspace to be in. Jared Sussman And yet it seemed like it was a headspace you wanted to be in. Julie Sussman Well, yeah, because I'm an actor and I wanted to tell this particular story because I thought it was worth telling. And I enjoy even the hard things as an actor. I really loved being an actor, truth be told. And so I even, the hard stuff is, has a grip on me. Well, for those who haven't seen it, why don't we take a look at what that hard stuff produced

and that time spent in London and watch a clip from the trailer of the film, Tuesday. I just don't think you understand how Tinder works. Can I tell you something? I know exactly how Tinder works. Then you don't understand how flirting works. How do you think you got here? It hurts. Where, honey? Everywhere. You're unique. You made my head silent.

Who are you talking to? Can you please just come out so she can see you? Madam, you need to say goodbye to your daughter. You have to get strong now. I can't. You can. And you have to let me help you. Life, every life ends. I felt the pain that you have. I don't know what I am without you, who I am without you.

I don't know what the world is without you in it. I love you more than anything in the whole world. You'll be okay. Promise. Promise. Promise, promise. Promise, promise. Promise, promise. Promise, promise. Promise, promise.

The echo you leave. The legacy. Your memory is how she lives. It's true. I got an email right before we started. They're actually canceling the Oscars this year. They're just going to give it to you. Just giving it to you outright. they're just going to give it to you. Just giving it to you outright. You know, I was watching the film again last night and even watching the trailer now, it's kind of unbelievable how well suited you are for this material. Like the leap from comedy actor to dramatic actor doesn't seem like much of a leap. And yet you had this quote, this role, it's exactly the thing I knew I

could do if I had the opportunity. And yet I'm certain that 20 years ago, nobody would have considered me for this role. Yeah. Why? Because that's how showbiz works, Sam. I mean, it seems like... I wish every week we could have a call where you're like, and that's how showbiz works, Sam, you idiot. Because I was really ensconced in doing big fat comedy, good comedy, but my name wouldn't

leap to mine for this kind of a role. But the first part of that quote is the most interesting, I think, that you knew you could do it. Oh, yeah. How did you know? Well, I mean, I just do. I've studied to be an actor. You know, the truth is the jobs that I've gotten in my life professionally have been comedic. By the way, FYI, totally not complaining. I have loved my career and...

Nat. Oh, you can complain. Julie. No, no, but I'm not going to because in this case, I mean, I love to complain too. But... Nat. That's not that annoying when people say, I have no complaints. How do you have no complaints? Julie. Oh, no. But Fran Leibovitz said, complaining is just telling the truth, which I really no complaints. How do you have no complaints? I don't understand this. Julie S to the young Julia that knew that she could do this, that had these sort of acting convictions? Julie Sarkis Yeah. Do you mean like when I was doing Sorry Wrong Number in my parents' basement and I played Mrs. Stevenson because that was extraordinary, ladies and gentlemen.

Jared Sarkis I heard you would invite the neighborhood to come and you would charge them admission. Julie Sarkis Yes. Jared Sarkis Didn't you get mad when people didn't do their lines right? You bet your ass I did. My neighbor, Michael Edsons, he was I believe six or seven and he was playing one of the murderers and he screwed up the line and I was like, oh, by the way, I was 12 or 11. Never too young to receive notes. Never too young. I wasn't going to talk about that, but I'm glad you did.

Julie 14.30 Sorry, I'm going off on a tangent. Matthew 14.30 No, no, I want to go to you at 18. So not that far off. Julie 14.30 Okay. Matthew 14.30 You're a senior at Holton Arms. Julie 14.30 Correct. Matthew 14.30 It's an all girls school in Maryland. One of your favorite films at the time was a movie called Julia. Julie 14.30 Yes.

Matthew 14.30 It's starring the great Jane Fonda. The wonderful Jane Fonda who's here. I understand. I don't think she's in here. No, I don't mean here. I mean here. She could be a big Julia Talk-Easy fan. We don't know.

Okay. So when it comes to like high school graduation, it's the end of the year, and there's a yearbook that goes around. And of course, when you're a senior, you get your senior quote. And the quote is supposed to represent who you are and what you want to communicate to your fellow classmates. And I thought, if you wouldn't mind, we'd read from some of those pages from the class of 1979. Do you want to give context for this quote? Sure.

This quote is actually a Lillian Hellman quote. It's from, I guess, the story she wrote called Julia. And so, this is the quote. Old paint on a canvas as it ages sometimes becomes transparent. When that happens, it's possible in some pictures to see the original lines. A tree will show through a woman's dress,

a child makes way for a dog, a large boat is no longer on an open sea. That is called pentamento because the painter repented, changed his mind. Perhaps it would be as well to say that the old conception replaced by a later choice is a way of seeing and then seeing again. That is all I mean about the people in this book. The paint has aged and I wanted to see what was there for me once, what is there for me now.

It's a great quote. It's very, very highfalutin for an 18 year old to put that on her senior page. How was everything going in high school? I was aspirational, let us say. Also, this is another dumb question, but how many pages did they give you in this yearbook? Because this is like a couple paragraphs. It was a full page and it was small type crunched down. It was very important to me to put this on the page.

As a teenager, what about that passage articulated what you wanted to present to your classmates and to yourself? Beyond the pretentiousness of it, like it clearly meant something to you. Well, I mean, it meant something to me, I think, from an artistic point of view. I mean, I'm embarrassed by it, but actually reading it, I think it's beautiful. I think it's an interesting consideration, Pentamento. And it's an interesting, it's a true way of viewing life. I mean, your experience when you're 18 is that experience then. And then when you are 35, you consider that experience and you might be seeing it through a different lens and something is showing through the paint. And I think that that's true of life, is it not? I mean, we're constantly reconsidering

realities based on experience. Jared Sussman It also reads like someone who wants to desperately grow up and then not be a kid anymore. Danielle Pletka Well, let me tell you, that was definitely me. Jared Sussman Okay, that was you. Danielle Pletka Oh, yeah. Jared Sussman And you knew you wanted to act, you knew you wanted to do this. Danielle Pletka Yeah.

Jared Sussman I guess, you guess, that yearning to be taken seriously to grow up and become an adult, one of the subjects that you often come back to on your podcast, Wiser Than Me, which if you haven't listened to it is very good. Thank you. One of the subjects you come back to again and again is ambition, which for women in 2024 is a thorny subject. Is it still? I think so. Yes, it's such a shame.

Okay. I can imagine in the 80s, when you're first starting out on SNL, it was even more challenging. How did you understand your relationship to ambition at that age? Dr. Patrick Pfeiffer I didn't understand it. I felt it. I felt maybe shy about it, but it didn't keep me from it. And- Jared Ranere What do you mean by that? Dr. Patrick Pfeiffer I didn't want to articulate it. I almost didn't want people to know. It was my secret, but I had it. I almost didn't want people to know. It was my secret, but I had it.

Right. Yeah. And you were on this show at 21. I mean, you were like the youngest castmate at the time. Yeah. Were you able to hold the creative person you wanted to be and the ambitious person? How did you think of yourself in that moment? Well, it was really rough. It was very hard to be, this was Saturday Night Live, and I was very, I was really naive and green as green could be.

I'd only done, I was in college, I was doing theater in Chicago while I was in college, but then I left school to do SNL. But you have to understand that I grew up, I was in junior high and high school and stuff in the 70s, right? So that's when SNL first came on the scene. There was nothing like that on television was speaking to my generation. Pete Slauson Bill Murray and folks like that? Julie Oh, yeah. And Chevy and Gilda and, you know, Jane Curtin, all those people.

Gilda and Jane Curtin, all those people. And they were irreverent. They were, it was like nothing like that on television. I felt like they were my people. I remember I had a, I was just thinking about this the other day. I had a picture of Gilda Radner in my bedroom growing up. It was on my bulletin board. And I, you know, I just, these were my people so

that when I got hired to do it, it was not what I expected it to be. And by the way, it was also a very different atmosphere then. It was a different cast, it was not, it was not being run by the, Lorne Michaels and his group at that time. So it was very different. And it was very dog eat dog. And I had no understanding of that. I thought it would be an ensemble and we would all get along perfectly. And I was very misguided. You were on the show from 1982 to 1985. Yes. And you've called it a grad school in entertainment, in which I learned a lot.

Yes. If we're sticking with the collegiate analogy, what would some of the courses be named? And what did you take away from them? Well, let's see, one course is called, Cocaine Does Not Make you funnier. That's just entry level, so that's right at the top. Yeah. It's a good life lesson. It is a good life lesson. I remember these sketches would come to the table read, they're like 18 pages long, and

there's one writer in the corner who wrote it, and as it's being read, he's like, ha ha ha, ha ha ha, ha ha ha. And you're like, I remember thinking, what is up with him? Anyway, yeah. So I passed that course. Yeah. Jared Sussman You passed that course. Were there any other classes you want to shout out? Jennifer Lutz Oh, boy. Jared Sussman In terms of lessons that actually mattered to you and how you move forward

from this. Yes. Well, the big takeaway for me, as simplistic as it sounds, was I'm not going to do this anymore if it's not fun. Because it wasn't fun. I did not have a good time. I mean, there were moments of bonding with certain people, including Larry David, by the way, who was there my third year, and he and I bonded over being miserable. But the, but, but really truly the takeaway for me was if I can't get back to a place where I'm having fun, like I was in Chicago, doing theater at Northwestern and theater on the stage in Chicago, then I think I'm just not going to do this because it's not what I thought it was. And did you have an idea of what you would do if not that? No, I had no skills.

Right. I still don't. I mean, I hadn't thought it through beyond that. It wasn't like I was saying to myself, I'm going to give up. I just considered, I'm going to pound at this and see if I can find a way to feel good and have, you know, find joy. That's going to be what I'm reaching for. Jared Ranere So, the one bit of joy, the only silver lining of SNL seems to be Larry David. Is that fair? Mary F. Kennedy Yeah, although I didn't know it at the time.

I mean, but yes, I mean, and by the way, I made friends there, so I don't want to make it sound like it was all shit, but... Jared Sussman But you bonded over misery. Mary F. Kennedy We did indeed, yeah. Jared Sussman Okay. He's pretty well known for airing his grievances. Mary F. Kennedy Yes. Yes. He based a Seinfeld episode on that called Festivus. Jared Sautner For the Rest of Us. Danielle Pletka Right.

Jared Sautner I forgot my poll at home, sadly. He is like, he, that was a deep Seinfeld bit. Danielle Pletka That was a great episode, by the way. Jared Sautner It is really, Jerry Stiller. Danielle Pletka Oh, please. Jared Sautner Rest in peace. Danielle Pletka Rest in peace. God love him to death. Jared Sautner But he really is like the Michael Jordan of expressing discontent. And so, I want to know, did the two of you complain about the same things?

Sure. And what were they? Nobody knows what's funny here, nobody gets what we're doing, they're not putting my sketches on the air, they're not putting me on the air, in that general vicinity. Stuff like that. Yeah. To talk about Seinfeld, we'd need like a whole nother Aspen Ideas Festival to do that. That's fine. I'll come back. It's fine.

Wow. What a nice offer. That's not what I thought you were going to say. Danielle Pletka It's relaxed. It feels very chill here. I like it. Jared Sussman Yeah. What's, what are we doing? Has it been good so far? Danielle Pletka Yeah, I think. You?

Jared Sussman No, I'll list my complaints later. No. The lights, have they gotten brighter though? Danielle Pletka Yeah, they are very bright. Jared Sussman Okay. But since we're here, can we talk about it a little bit? Because I want to talk about the collaboration between Larry and Jerry Seinfeld. Because as the years have gone on, the reputation is that it's a show about nothing and because it's about nothing and moves so seamlessly, I think some people conflate effortlessness with ease. And I bring that up because when you accepted the Mark Twain Prize, you thanked Jerry in that speech. And you said, I learned a lot from Jer over

the years, principally the importance of hard work. Jerry killed himself to make sign felt good. He and Larry David worked so hard, it is actually impossible to describe. It was very like emotionally charged the way you said it, which for like Seinfeld is such a no hugging, unsentimental show. Yeah. No hugging, no learning was the... Exactly. The edict. Yeah. That was going to be the title of this talk too. But six years removed, where does that quote land with

you? And how have you come to understand their collaboration? 05.30 Oh, well, it was obviously unique. It was lightning in a bottle, I would say. They're actually very different people in a lot of ways, but they had a shared comedic brain. But they came at moments from a slightly different angle, but they came at the same moment. Jared Sussman How would you describe each person's angle? Danielle Pletka Oh, God, this is impossible to answer. I have to think about that.

I'm so sorry, you guys, because it's like, it's in my, practically in my body, it's hard to sort of articulate it. Yeah. Larry was a hand wringer. That's no surprise. Jerry was more open. And the combo, I wonder if they would agree with me on that, and the combo of those things, they would not give up. They were a dog with a

they were two dogs with the same bone. Right. Yeah. That there you go. That took forever to get out. Sorry. You know the beautiful thing is, we're grateful for everyone here, but people will listen to this later. It will be edited. We're going to send it great. Oh, yeah. Thank you. Oh, I appreciate that.

Just go straight to the dog and the bone thing. The diarrhea joke, definitely, dog and bone. You said recently that you don't think Seinfeld would get made today. Why? Well, I say that because I think it's very hard today to get anything that's off the beaten path made. You know, people are a little bit more nervous these days. And Seinfeld barely did get made, by the way. They did the pilot and then they ordered four episodes. Like that was a huge stamp of approval.

But anyway, it was not like the standard sitcom on television back then. You know, it was Cosby and Cheers and it was very, the comedic structure of those shows was recognizable and from, and by the way, I'm not taking away from those shows in terms of their, the quality of them. I'm just saying that there was a way of coming in and telling a joke that was pretty recognizable. And that was not the case on Seinfeld. Jared Ranere You know, when I asked that question, and it's happened a few times, this front row I'm loving, they answer it a little bit sometimes for you. And I think someone said,

political. And I'm thinking, like, political correctness in comedy is a subject that is brought up almost exclusively on CNN podcasts, or around a dinner table where people are bored and want to fight about something. That was the first joke you liked. Okay, good. You have even worked with some people that have lamented this era of political correctness and that we're out of the golden age of comedy. I'm not going to name names. But when the New York Times asked you about it, you said, I believe being aware of certain sensitivities is not a bad thing. When I hear people starting to complain about political correctness, to me, that's a red flag because it sometimes

means something else. When you say it sometimes means something else, what are you thinking about exactly? I think what I want to say is that I want to double down on being sensitive. I believe that looking at material and art through a different lens is can be helpful. I would posit that if you were to look back on let's any art 30, 40 years ago you will find things that might not stand the test of time today and that's interesting isn't it and so it then stands to reason that there may be things we're doing now that don't stand the test of time. And it's perfectly okay to consider that all the time. I'm a fan of comedy, even

comedy that fails. And I also said I reserve the right to boo what I think is shitty material or offensive material, but comedy is about taking risks. And I think this PC talk is bullshit to tell you the truth. That's what I think. After the break, more from our live show in Aspen with the one and only Julia Louis-Dreyfus. Stay with us. Say hello to your in real life makeup filter in a bottle, CoverGirl's Simply Ageless Skin Perfector Essence. There are a handful of beauty products that once you try them instantly elevate to the daily rotation status. When you find that product, you wonder how you ever live without it. And that is what CoverGirl's newest foundation

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ignores how much good stuff is out there. Like as if it's not happening. And of course I'm thinking about Veep in this. Which completely flies in the face of political correctness or whatever that conversation is. And so for those that may need a refresher. Oh, good. Hmm. I thought we would play a scene from Veep that not only didn't get you canceled, but won you many, many Emmys. Okay. This is from season five of Veep in which President Selena Meyer is trying to convince a congresswoman

from Colorado. Oh yeah. To be in support of her bill. Let's cut the shit, Selena. Oh, here it is. All roads through Colorado go through me and the toll just went up. You're playing a very dangerous game of chicken with the head fucking head. Because if I don't win the White House, O'Brien is going to sink your stupid boats.

And you're going to look like a hair-sprayed asshole in your 1980s Mother of the Bride dress. And if I do win, I will have my administration come to your shitty little district and shake it to death like a Guatemalan nanny. And then I'm going to have the IRS crawl so far up your husband's colon, he's gonna wish the only thing they find is more cancer.

Good God. So, can I count on your vote? Or do I need to shove a box of White House M&Ms up your stretched out six baby vag? Yes, you can count on my vote. I think I wanna hear a oDokie Annie Oakley. Okie-Dokie Annie Oakley. Oh, super-duper trooper.

Aye, aye, aye. I just want to be clear. When she says shitty little Colorado district, she is not referencing Aspen or any of its beautiful surrounding areas. She's probably referencing wherever Lauren Boebert comes from. Where is that, by the way? Can someone say that? Here. Lauren's here with you? Oh, there it is.

Wow. Okay. Quickly change the subject. We're going to change the subject. So the election. Hi. Hi. The lights are definitely brighter, right?

I know. Right? Brighter and brighter. So the show, I really do, I mean though, like you watch that clip, not canceled, you have more Emmys than fingers, you're good. S1 05 Thank you. S1 05 But I mean, those jokes can happen and it's fine. It's fine. I feel like we all need to reset a little bit on that conversation. Can we go to Sunday, September 17th, 2017? You make history

that night when you win the sixth Emmy for playing Selena Meyer, which I think is the most anyone's won for playing one character. The next morning, it's Monday, you get a call from your doctor. When you replay that call on your head, what does it look and sound like? Dr. Lise Wittke Well, the call was for my doctor saying that I had breast cancer. So it was like a cartoon, you know, just when you thought you'd made it, you know, you got crushed. I got crushed in that moment. I actually started laughing, believe it or not, but that actually makes sense. It was hilarious to get that news on the heels of the night before. And then, of course,

I started to weep. And then I just got into, you know, let's go mode, you know, after that. I mean, pretty quickly. What did that look like? Meeting, you know, finding out what kind of cancer it is, meeting multiple doctors, interviewing doctors, talking to people that I knew that had had breast cancer. I mean, the list goes on, the crash course in breast cancer and finding the right doctor for you. You said in the past that you didn't allow yourself to think about the bad outcome. How did you do that? Julie Sands With a sort of blinder-like focus, I likened

it to a long, long time ago, I was with my husband and we were in the Bahamas actually on a scientific boat and we were doing some stuff and I was swimming in the water and I was far away from the boat and my husband came to the bow and he said, Jules, I don't want you to panic but there's a shark in the water and it was in fact like a 12 or 13 foot bull shark. So it was a significant animal. And he said that and I saw the ladder on the boat and I just swam towards the ladder. And I just kept my eyes on the ladder that I was getting to the ladder. And that's exactly what I did with this diagnosis. I did not, I could not allow any other thing to come into my head. You focus on the ladder.

I focus on the ladder. Yeah. And it got me through. David Mandel was a showrunner on Veep. You worked with him back in your Seinfeld days. Nicole Yes, and also on Curb. Jared Just the best. Nicole Yeah.

Jared And he gave a quote to The New Yorker, because he was asked about that time, that period when you were sick and the changes in schedule of the show and all that, and also what it did to him. Nicole Yeah. Jared And he said something that I have to tell you has just stayed with me all week.

So I'm just going to read the quote and see if I'm on the hands. We keep touching the foot. I'm sorry about that. Oh, it's fine. I didn't notice it. These are wedges, so it's probably not a problem. No, it's okay. This is me putting off the emotional quote. Okay. I had the sense of the walls closing in on me. And I was wracked with guilt and other weird Jewishness and I was a goddamn wreck. She seemed great. Then we watched her go through chemo and you can see its effects on her. She got thinner and thinner and we couldn't hug her because we were afraid to get her sick. It was the first time that all of a sudden she looked her age and seemed human

and vulnerable. Did you feel those things too in that time? Beth Dombkowski Which things? Jared Sussman Human, vulnerable. Beth Dombkowski Oh, yeah. Very. Jared Sussman In ways that he makes it seem like he had never seen from you before. Mary F. Kennedy Well, it's a very dear thing that he says, and I love Dave Mandel with my heart. You know, it's funny because he did something and actually hearing that, it's sort of, I'm thinking about this in a new way, speaking

of Pentamento. Originally, when I was first diagnosed, I had this idea that I was going to still shoot the show of Veep in between chemo treatments. I had this, oh yes, I can keep working. It's going to be fine. You'll squeeze it in. I'll squeeze it in. Yeah, squeeze it in. And, you know, we may have to slow the schedule down, but I can do it. Well, obviously that was was and he was like sure sure sure bless him and then that was not possible but what was possible was I had chemo treatments every three weeks and in that third week before the next treatment I would start to feel better and so what we would do is we would all gather

and have a table read of the next script. And I realize now that they were sort of, it was a kindness, you know, and because we would all gather and we would read these scripts and I would give notes on the scripts and stuff, but it was a real gesture of love for them. And it kept me looking for that letter too. You know what I mean? Yeah. I love that. Yeah, it's really dear.

It's odd how kindness can move us like that. I know, right? At the time, I thought I was helping them because I was working on the show with them. We were working on, for real, you know, coming in, I said, this doesn't work, we need to retool this, you know, giving off these. But I think it was the other way around. Pete Slauson Yeah. Debra Larson Yeah.

Debra Larson I hadn't even considered that until this moment. Pete Slauson I love that. You know, there was another very supportive person within the first week of your diagnosis. It's my understanding that then Vice President Biden called you. Debra Larson Mm hmm. Pete Slauson And, you know, most people don't get to speak to the president or any of the elected officials that we are asked to take a leap of faith for. And I wonder if there's something in that call with him, in that exchange, that the public should know about the president, like something they perhaps don't. DG Well, I hope they know that he's a genuinely kind and decent human being.

He wanted to know how I was doing, who my doctors were, did I need his help? He was working on the cancer moonshot. Bear in mind his own son had, I believe, was struggling then or perhaps he had just passed away. Forgive me, I don't know exactly that timeline. But this was something that he was living and breathing and he took the time to really reach out in a very fundamentally kind way, and because he is a fundamentally kind person. You know, you've done so much work, activist work, electoral politics, both locally and nationally.

Yes. In 2020, you were part of the Democratic National Convention. Oh my God, yeah. How much fun was that? It was terrifying. It was during COVID. It was a COVID production. It was a COVID production.

And let me tell you something, it was hard work, it was the fourth night of the convention. So that's the big night. And because, and it was new, it was early days of COVID. So it was like, I was in a room that's like an eighth the size of the room that we're in right now, a black box, there was a cameraman, and I want to say there was a boom operator and that was it. Everybody else was elsewhere because we couldn't get close to people. Anyway, we were dealing with the White House, we're dealing with the DNC, we're dealing

with, it's like Paramount and then Warner Brothers and everybody was giving notes and it was very broadcast news like in terms of the material changing as we were going because it was live. But I will say that I was really scared going into it because obviously I felt enormous responsibility. There was so much on the line. What do you mean? But as soon as I got the opening, whatever the opener was that I did to introduce, and

I don't even remember who it was at this point, and it landed and we knew it worked, I just, I'll never forget sort of, because then they broke away to somebody else and God only knows where because we were bouncing around the country. And I looked at my husband Brad and we had been working on the material together, along with Dave Mandel, by the way. And I looked at him and we were just like, yeah! We just had such a, we felt like we had righteousness on our side. It was so exciting to be doing, because it was comedic. A lot of material was comedic. And of course, I was pushing the envelope much further than the powers that Bea wanted me to go. But it landed, it worked. And it was like in, it was doing that in service of what I thought was the correct move for the country. And it felt great. It was really exciting.

There were a lot of good bits that you really did a good job. It was really exciting. Jared probably a lot of people here in this room, he often said that celebrity is something you can spend. How are you thinking about the ways you want to spend whatever capital you have as we enter this election? I was trying to find the adjective, but I just don't have it right now. Well, it is an election, Sam, for sure. I'm really focusing on down ballot races because I think that this is where democracy lives in state legislatures, certainly nowadays. And so I'm taking whatever spotlight I have to bring to those races and hopefully shine light on significant races that were maybe tight and we have a shot of winning, the good guy winning. You said in 2020 when you and your husband were preparing the material, it was a big

moment, there was an existential moment. Do you view this election in the same light? I do. I do. I view it in exactly the same light, except even more so now, because I believe that the other one, the one who shall not be named has made it clear who he is. And so that frightens me. And I think we know what will happen if he's elected and so it must not happen. I know the the the Biden administration has brought in some comedy writers to help. Would you ever go in and give notes? Yes, they asked me to, sure. Okay, well, we'll have to make that happen. Jane Fonda, I want to bring it all the way back where we started a little bit. I'm thinking about how she talks about life in three acts. Yeah.

It's like zero to 30, 30 to 60, 60 to 90. And she's lived so many lives in that. But it also makes me think about her work as an actor and like your more dramatic work in the past decade, the vulnerability of films like Enough Said, You Hurt My Feelings, Tuesday. I know in the beginning you said 20 years ago, they would have never offered me that. But now that you have, do you think like the work, it doesn't just come on the heels of the past few decades, but it's a result of them, the journey we've talked about? In some way, I don't know, do you imbue those performances with that experience, with that

lived experience? S. Oh, without question. I mean, well, I mean, I couldn't have played Selena Meyer when I was 38 because I didn't have the life experience that I could inject into that woman. I had a better understanding of who she was given the life experience I'd had up to that point. And in, for example, in this movie Tuesday, I'm a mother of two grown children. I have lost people very dear to me in my own

life. I have experienced both parenthood and deep and profound loss. I can bring all of that to bear in the film. So that's not, I could have tried to find a way into it if I hadn't had those experiences, but having had them, I can bring them to bear. So sure, you bring all of that. Yeah. Jared The parrot or the macaw as a death doula. You mentioned all the loss you've endured, and we haven't spent that much time talking about your father, but he wrote a book of poems. Beth Dombkowski

He did. Jared That he finished, I think, two or three days before he passed. Beth Dombkowski Yes. Jared It's called Letters Written and Not Sent. And it's so, so good. Danielle Pletka Oh, thank you.

Jared Sussman I just think it's fantastic. I thought, before we go, if you would be open to reading a piece from that book. Danielle Pletka Oh, my God, I'd love to. That's so nice. This is incredible. Oh, yes. This is a poem that my father wrote. It's called Explanation. God must mean for us to reason that the flower, first in bloom, taut and shining, is not altered even in its dying season. God's the present ever missing till we meet it when we die. Life's the ambush of tomorrow and the sorrow of goodbye." Oh, that gives tombstone. Yeah. Life's the ambush of tomorrow and the sorrow of goodbye.

I mean, I think that applies to everyone. That quote is so linked to this new movie. Yeah. To Tuesday. Yeah. And there's a line in it where the McCaw, and again, you have to see it to believe it, but the McCaw says to your character, a mom that's in denial, a mom that doesn't want to say goodbye, that how you live it is how she lives. And I'm thinking like in the Fonda three-act structure of life, you just started your 60s. How do you want

to live it? Nicole Oh my God, fully, openly, with arms outstretched. It's funny, you know, I feel youthful in that way, you know. I want to try new things. I want to keep fighting the good fight. I want to look for good art. I want to fully live my life and be hopefully a good person doing so. I love that. So basic, but I think everybody feels that way.

Right? What's kind of amazing is your first two acts, you've lived so fully. So to imagine the next one is kind of impossible. It's going to blow your mind, Sam. It's going to blow my mind. And obviously, we're going to have to come back to Aspen to talk about it. No fucking way we're not going to. But truly, I so love all that you have brought

into this world in Act 1 and Act 2 and whatever happens next in Act 3. I'm so looking forward to it and I thank you profoundly for the time tonight, truly. Julie Louis Oh, that's so nice of you. Thank you. This has been really fun. Jared Snell Julia Louis-Dreyfus, everyone. Julie Louis-Dreyfus, everyone. Thank you. Thank you.

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Go to quince.com slash wiser for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's qince.com slash wiser to get free shipping and 365 day returns. quince.com slash wiser. And that's our show. If you enjoyed today's episode with Julia Louis-Dreyfus, be sure to leave us a review on Apple, Spotify, wherever you do your podcasting. If you want to go above and beyond, you can share the program on social media, tag us at TalkEasyPod. We do like to repost those. All of this really does help us continue making this program each and every Sunday.

I want to give a special thanks this week to Lindsay Krug and Hannah Dullin at Origin PR, Ava Hartman and the team at Aspen Ideas Festival, A24 and the team on Tuesday, and of course, our guest today, Julia Louis-Dreyfus. Her new film Tuesday is now showing in select theaters across the country. If you want to check out her podcast, it's called Wiser Than Me. You can listen to it wherever you are listening to this right now. To learn more about her and her work, visit our show notes at talkeasypod.com. If you're looking for other great episodes, I'd recommend our talks with Tom Hanks, Nicole

Hollifcenter, and Gloria Steinem. To hear those and more Pushkin podcasts, listen on iHeart, Apple, Spotify, wherever you like to listen. You can also follow us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, at TalkEasyPod. TalkEasy is produced by Caroline Rebach. Our executive producer is Janik Zabravo. Today's talk was edited by C.J. Mitchell and mixed by Andrew Bastola.

Our music is by Dylan Peck. Our illustrations are by Krish Chennai. Our research assistance comes from Kali Conley. I also want to thank our team at Pushkin Industries. Justin Richmond, Kerry Brody, Jacob Smith, Eric Sandler, Kira Posey, Jordan McMillan, Tara Machado, Owen Miller, Sarah Nix, Malcolm Gladwell, Greta Cohn, and Jacob Weisberg. I'm Sam Fragoso. Thank you for listening to Talk Easy. I'll see you back here next week with another episode. Until then, stay safe, and so long. Make sure to check out our brand new Wiser Than Me Cross Body Tote Bag.

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