With The Perrys - A Brief Conversation about Ephesians with Jasmine L. Holmes and Melissa Kruger

Episode Date: May 20, 2024

When it comes to women in ministry who know a thing or two about studying the Bible, Jackie and her two guests, Jasmine L. Holmes and Melissa Kruger, have a ton to offer. On this episode of With The Perrys, they sit down to discuss a new Bible study resource called Ephesians: A Study of Faith and Practice. Jackie, Jasmine, and Melissa talk about the way they went about writing this Bible study together so that we can more clearly understand how we are oriented to God through Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. The Ephesians study will be released in June 2024. Learn more about it here. This Episode of With The Perrys Sponsored by: https://www.covenanteyes.com — Try Victory by Covenant Eyes FREE for 30 days with promo code PERRYS!   Other resources: Parenting with Hope: Raising Teens for Christ in a Secular Age by Melissa Krueger (released in April 2024) Yonder Come Day: Exploring the Collective Witness of the Formerly Enslaved by Jasmine L. Holmes (coming September 3, 2024) Let’s Talk podcast Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Okay, today is a very interesting day, Saints and Ains, because usually next to me would be the person that I am one flesh with, Preston Perry. But he ain't here. It ain't because he went to glory. It's because Jasmine Holmes is next to me. Hi. And Melissa Kruger is across with me.

And we all used to be on this podcast called We Need to Talk through TGC Network. But now we need to talk and with the Barrys. It's just a strange little thing. Hi, y'all. How are you doing? Good. You're blessed. Good.

How's the favorite. We have a project together coming out called, what's it called? Can somebody put it up? Anybody. Ephesians, a study of faith and practice written by. I'm going to go back with Melissa Krueger, Jasmine Holmes, and Jackie Hill Perry. And it's a Bible study on the book that is very difficult, very complicated, but very necessary and profitable and useful. Yep.

Adopted by the Father, united in Christ, empowered by the Spirit. Oh, that's what the back say? Praise good stuff. When we forget, we can always just read what we wrote. Yes. Also, our podcast was called Let's Talk. It wasn't, we need to talk? No.

That's the tour that person was on. I'm sorry. That's all right. It's the same thing. You know, we need to talk, let's talk. I'm a little far removed. It's been a minute. It's all right.

Yeah, that was a good time. A good season. It was fun. We was very pregnant. I know. We're actually together and no one is pregnant. Literally was having like, wore flashbacks of the way here of like the last few times we've done it when one or both of us

was pregnant. I mean, how old are your youngest now? Two. Two. So it's been two years. That's crazy. Because you know, she was throwing up in between us. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. She'd be like, oh, hold on. Hold on. I thought. Can you preach the gospel. This woman is suffering for Christ. I know. Y'all don't understand. She is out here with your nice eyebrows. It happened. All right. So we wrote this. Bible studied together on Ephesians. I think the project was initially yours. Why Ephesians? Out of all 66 books. Goodness, you're asking me to remember years ago. I know. I know. Well, I think Lifeway came to us about or came to me about it. And I love the book of Ephesians.

One, because I like order and it's structured so nicely. You know, the first half of the book is all of these, is it imperative or indicative? You're the teachers. It's the, you're the English person. Indicatives. It's the indicative. That lead us to the imperatives. That's right. It's imperative you do this. So the first half are all these indicative of what God has done for us and Christ. And it just, it's like all the ways God's blessed us. And then the whole second half is how we live in light of that. What's imperative that we do. Thank you, Jasmine, for being here. You do the little boney thing.

I know, the bear. Oh, yeah. The bear in the box. The bear in the box. So I was an English teacher for a long time, which, by the way, like, I've had so many people at my new job. They walk up to me and they're like, oh, are you in college around here? Are you in high school around here? And I'm like, oh, my God.

No. I was actually in education for 10 years. But I was an English teacher. And the way that we taught prepositions was with a box. is something that my teacher did with me that I did with my students. But it was a little bear and it was a little box. And the way that you identify a preposition is any position that bear can be in with the box is a preposition.

So like in the box, around the box, through the box, talking to the box, like all those are prepositions. And it came up a lot in our study of Ephesians because it is basically a book that tells us how we are oriented to God through Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. There's a lot of prepositions and effetions. That's right. See, that's the stuff I want to learn because I think I'll be a better teacher, a better Bible teacher, because prepositions and adjectives, I know what a noun is.

I know what a verb is. I know what a period is. I know what an exclamation mark is. Semicolon, not so much time. When's the dash? And there are three dashes, but we are. But I love a dash. And anybody that's ever edited me is like, girl,

is too much. Too many. Too many. It's so dramatic. It's just like, mm. Yeah. And now I'll say it. Yeah.

We separated our teaching portions, which I think you're talking about the orderly nature of Ephesians was helpful because it's six sessions. And so I think you had chapter one through two. You had chapter three and four. I had chapters five and six. Would you say that you enjoyed working through your particular chapters? Because I felt like our chapters fit even our approach. to Bible study. You know?

Yeah. I loved working through mine. I mean, it's just all the like goodness. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in Christ. Oh, I should have gotten that better. I should have gotten that better. Chapter 1.

I did memorize it. Blessed be the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places and that he goes on for a really long sense. it's the longest sentence of Paul in the scriptures. It's like this one long run-on sentence about everything God's done for us in Christ by the Spirit. And so it's just really beautiful to get into all those words. And so I did love that section and just digging in because I think so often we spend our life on the, here's what you're supposed to do.

Here's how you're supposed to be. Here's what you know, walk in a manner worthy of the gospel, which is all that's great. But sometimes we don't spend enough time just sitting in, remember, all of that's an outflow of what's been done and by God for you. And so you're just living in light of that. And that's what it means when God's done that. You had the bridge. I did. I really enjoyed it.

I liked having the connective part. I liked being able to talk about the indicative name and the imperative. So to pick up in three. You just roll those words off. You use it. So now I have it in my own back pocket. Yeah, I liked having the transition. It really fit, as Jackie said, like the way that I approach Bible study that very,

I felt like I was just explaining a lot of very basic things in my section, which I really enjoyed. Yeah, I feel like you and Jackie had harder jobs than I had, especially with, because Jackie had the slavery. Jackie, Jackie had the hard. I'll see that. I had good stuff. Jackie had the hard stuff. Because the beginning of chapter 5 is all fine. Therefore,

be imitators of God as beloved children and walk in love. Cool. We can do that. And then we get down, wives, submit to your own husband, that's it to the Lord. Then we over here talking about some slaves,

submit to it. It's like, oh, Lord. Now, I've got to explain slavery and New Testament. It was all Jackie. So if you don't like what we said, it was all Jackie. It was all.

I just, every last thing. I will say I'm going to put the ball of your court because that should have been your chapter actually.

Jasmine's a historian Okay. So if anybody should have been dealing with slavery in Ephesus, it should have been you. Yeah. No.

And here's why. And here's why. Because I am a historian of antebellum Reconstruction America, which is very different from household cold and slavery in the New Testament,

which is really important. This pillow is dirty. We're here now. Explain the difference. Oh, not you putting me on the spot, Lord. I'm here. When we think about slavery as Americans, in general, when we approach the Bible as Americans,

we approach it in a very self-centered fashion. We think about it in terms that we can understand. We think about it as though it was written in English, as though it was written in the 21st century, and so it was written about the American context, and it wasn't. So I will say less about what slavery was in the New Testament context, then I will say that it wasn't race-based perpetual chattel slavery that we know of today. That is not to say that it wasn't a difficult institution.

That is not to say that it wasn't an inherently cruel institution. That is not to say that it was all flowers and roses. and it was amazing. But they're just two fundamentally different things, even though they both fall under the umbrella of slavery. And so I think oftentimes when I would describe myself as a historian of slavery, but that's very different from the slavery that we're talking about in the Bible. And a lot of it is because we don't know a lot about the slavery that took place in Rome.

A lot of it is, you know, when I talk about slavery in American history, I have a lot of primary sources to look back on. I have eyewitness accounts. I have accounts from the enslaved and they're enslavers. I have I have legislative accounts. I have all kinds of cases and all kinds of things to look at. When it comes to this slavery that takes place in the New Testament, we don't have as much information.

I think that the stories are still piecing it together. Like written accounts from someone who is a slave in the first century? I mean, I don't. I mean, I'm sure there are. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting.

We got to do the work. Yeah. And discovering it and making sense of it. Yeah. Have you like even, because what school do you go to? Oh, what college are you to? Jackson State. Have you, you probably have, but if you have,

have you ever had any conversations with people that don't rock with the Bible because of what's in Ephesians? I haven't had any conversations with people who don't rock with the Bible because of what it says about slavery in Ephesians, but I have had conversations with people who don't like the Bible because of what it says about slavery in Leviticus or what it says about women in the Old Testament or it says. Yeah.

So it's less. Ephesians is probably the least controversial place that slavery comes up in the Bible, which is really interesting because it felt very controversial when we were talking about. Yeah. So I knew in broaching these texts that I needed to be sensitive to how they've been used and therefore how they could be understood and applied. And I think knowing that may be. it just a it just made it complicated to a certain degree where I wanted to communicate what

Paul might be saying but open it up enough to give us freedom to feel our emotions as we read because I think that's fair and legitimate to say that there are some passages in the Bible that make us feel away right like when I read about lot giving his daughters to these nasty people I feel away about it when I read about Abram giving like making somebody his concubine and making them make her pregnant without her consent, I feel a way, right? And I feel like sometimes we make it as if we're supposed to read the Bible like robots and not feel our feelings. But like, what if that's actually a part of our interpretive process? Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. So I know people are like, yeah, but explain these texts. Get the Bible study.

Get the Bible study. Because, you know, Jackie did a great job. And again, if you don't like it, those were Jackie's chapters. So. I gave you resources. I gave you what you called primary resources. I gave resources. And I think I wanted to do due diligence with having, sorry, my mouth is dry, having resources in my study of these passages that weren't from one stream or one tradition, right?

And so let me consider the scholarly work of egalitarians and complementarians. let me consider the scholarship of people who are not primarily reformed in European, right? Like, because the way their worldview will affect the way they interpret these texts. And so I think, I hope people learn from that. Well, I think, too, it highlights people pull one verse out and then they make a whole system out of it. Or they justify maybe a system out of it, whatever it might be. Like a Fusion's Five. Yes.

Yeah, like, I mean, you know, so a husband could say, have every right to beat my wife because she wasn't obedient to me. One, that's not what the text says. Yeah, by any means, that's not what he's telling husbands to do. He's never telling husbands, make your wife submit. Yeah, that's not what the text says. But you see how if it's pulled out, if you forget one through three, we're never going to interpret four through six correctly. That's good. You know, and so, and it's so fascinating.

too, because when you read those passages, even about children and their parents and men and women and all of these things, and then he gets to the very end. And he says, your struggle is not with flesh and blood. You know, it's actually this spiritual power that's going on. So it's like, it starts in the heavenly realms and it ends in the heavenly realms. And so we have to read the whole thing, or we're going to misinterpret those little parts and take them out of context and use them wrongly. and all of that. I also think it's interesting to note that it doesn't start with interpretation 99% of the time.

It starts with, I want to do this thing and I need justification for it. So then I'm going to find justification for it. It's very rarely, oh, I was reading the Bible and I was trying to think of like, I want a country, let's call it America and let's make it a Christian nation. And let me look and see, oh, it says slaves obey your masters. well, this is kind of go to Africa. Like, that's not what happened. Yeah.

So I think, I think a lot of times people blame the Bible for being used by people who are, have already decided what they're going to do and then retroactively are like, and also the Bible says this. Which it actually says the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. And that's normally. And so they'll use the Bible. They'll take something that's good and use it for evil. normally to achieve, let's just say, a lot of times monetary ends.

It worked, right? I mean, this is the bad news about a lot of things. We'll use something that's good to perpetuate evil because we have an evil design behind it. And that's what you see. So it's like you have to actually read, again, not just even Ephesians, but the whole storyline of scripture to even understand all of the, of those Old Testament stories, all of these messy lives are pointing us to our complete need of Christ to come in and remedy the situation. So they're not like, we shouldn't be like Lot,

but someone could try to make it like that. Oh, Lot did this. So David had all these wives. So why can't I have all these wives? And you know, we have to actually learn how to study scripture. So one question for you all, as you were writing, what are some of the tools you use to study the Bible well? Like how do you go about starting the process of working on a Bible study? Like what do you do? What helps you study? Like it's yeah, because we're not, you don't have to be a Bible teacher to study the Bible on your own. So how do you, Jasmine Holmes? Let's see. What did I do? I read Ephesians over and over again. That was the first thing that I did. I read it all through in one city and then I read one chapter every day and then I went back and I read one chapter every week

and then I went back and like I just really spent a lot of time in it a friend of mine and I which is kind of getting ahead of where we're going in this conversation but we read it together so then we kind of bounced off of each other like ideas you know this is what I got from it today this is what I understood from it today um not all of us are seminarians who are trained to study the Bible with the level of excellence that Jackie has been trained to study the Bible. That's why I get really hard passages. I'm here to just kind of show people like, hey, the every man can do this too. Listen, I ain't took one harmonetics class yet.

I didn't learn from sitting on the good preachers. So yeah, that's what I did. And then, of course, you know, I mean, you look at commentaries and you, again, I had a very, I had a very easy job in the writing of this Bible study. And so I feel like I had less of a, less of a research need than, say, Jackie, and then less of a, what's the word that I'm looking for? Study of Trinity Christ, God. You and you have a Christ, yeah. Yes.

I knew that that groundwork was something that you had already laid in your first two chapters. So really, I was like, okay, I have a really simple job of. I just want to understand it exactly where we are. And I want to make sure that I am tying the orthodoxy of the first three chapters to the orthopathy of the second three chapters. And so I saw myself as kind of like linking. And so I did a lot of reading over and over again. That's actually kind of hard.

I know. Because you would need to get a sense of all of it to know how to like through a will. Yeah. But it was nice because when I would read all of it and I'd be like, oh, that's confusing. Or, oh, that's something that kind of made me hesitate a little bit. I'd be like, well, it's not my problem. Yeah, but you have, I think one thing that I always appreciate about you, Jasmine, is you have years of growing up in a home where the Bible was taught.

And it's really been, you know, I can just see how it impacts your study. What you think is easy, someone else might not think that is easy. So, yeah, just as easy. So I do think it's just, it always gives me a lot of hope of like, as we're raising these kids, They really are picking up on things. We think they're not picking up on anything some days. But like the Bible stories that we teach them along the way are setting the foundation for them to be able to study the Bible just by reading it to them over and over and over again.

One day they're going to get to Ephesians and be like, oh, yeah, well, I know about that dividing wall and, you know, because I've studied the Old Testament. And you have all that, whereas somebody who's maybe new to the text would come in and be like, what are they talking about? What's this dividing wall of hostility? What does it mean that Jews and Gentiles are now? Like, they wouldn't get the significance of that. But I just think it's really beautiful how all those years of just having the Bible in your home,

yeah, they really do impact our Bible reading as adults. That's actually very encouraging. Very disoriented because normally people are disappointed with how I turned out. Sorry. Thank you. Well, I love how you turned out. Thank you. I think my approach is similar.

I read and listened to Ephesians a lot to just get a sense of the rhythm, of the tone, all the things. I also eventually started to listen to a series that Alistair Begg had on Ephesians, which I'm slow to do or even advocate for because I think sometimes another person's thought process or framework or perspective

can influence your ability to just come to a text. subjectively. But his, I think I know enough now to not be so bound by someone else's view. If anything, he would say things. I was like, I don't think we should frame slaves obeying masters like, you know, workers obeying bosses. I don't necessarily think that that's fair to Ephesians, right? So I read it, listened to series.

And then I just did a lot of work finding scholarly, scholarly academic resources that were outside of the typical camp that talks the most about Ephesians 5 and 6. Even when it comes to Ephesians 6, it's like, no, we need to dig in, we need to learn from our charismatic and Pentecostal brothers and sisters when it comes to spiritual warfare, right? Because the way they will approach this passage, I think gives justice to the reality that there is a real devil and demons that hate us. So. Boy about you.

I printed it out. I like to, yeah, print it out just totally. totally clean. Yeah, I don't want anything around it. And I do like, and I printed it out in multiple versions. Because, you know, each version says things. You got a lot of ink. You are wealthy. I know. I did. I did. I know. I know. But God's word is worth it. Hey. Right. You're a scribe. I printed it out because I like, I like to just have it clean and just read through it again and again and again. But I will say this. It's funny. You read through it all those times. And I can't. and say, without a doubt, when the three of us got together.

So this study's a little different than what Lifeway normally does. So normally it's going to be a teaching time or whatever. With that, it's the three of us talking. And I was so glad when Lifeway agreed to that because it was one of the things I was hopeful for. I think there's something that happens when brothers and sisters get together and just talk about the word together. So I had studied on my own for weeks and just studied and studied and even read other people. and all of that. But I still remember things, especially in chapters five and six, that it took away that I learned

from you to that I just had, I thought about it differently because we studied it together in community. And so one thing we've talked about a lot is the power of the spirit is really at work while we study together, that the word does the work as God's people meet and kind of feast on it together. So has there been a time in your all's lives? where you really experienced that. We're studying the Bible together

with other people made it come alive for you in new ways. I don't know if you felt that, experienced it. All the time. I think on a like a micro level, he was just me and Preston. You know, like me reading something and sharing that with him and then him adding a perspective on it

that I didn't think about or me and friends or me in a small group. I think that's harder now because I'm in a church context that doesn't have that kind, well, I'm not a part of that kind of community yet. But when I was in Chicago, we were in a house church, you know. So that was our life is opening up the Bible and talking about it to the point that I got rebuked a couple times.

And that trained me because we had a Bible study, long story short, and I realized that I'm not safe if I'm rushing a teaching. And so I had to, I rushed. So I just kind of did this like, study. commentary across the references. And I taught during the Bible study and I taught some stuff that wasn't true but they checked me in front of everybody. It was like, well, I don't think that's the

and I ain't like it. But it trained me to pause and do due diligence with the text before I ever opened my mouth. So even like doing work, like studying the scriptures and community also trains you how to handle it correctly. You know? And I always appreciate that.

Yeah. Well, it's also good. I remember, years of doing a Bible study with people, and I learned what a bad question was. Because when you ask a question and it's like crickets in the room, you're like, well, that was a stupid question. There's nothing better, no better way to learn by failing. I think, okay, I think it's not like a bad question, but maybe not the best question. Well, a yes or no answer in a small group. I think that's a bad question. If Jesus is the answer, I'll be honest. I think that's a

Jesus raised from the dead. Yes. Yes. Yo, rather than, hey, what are the implications that Jesus raised for the dead? Why does that matter in our life? Now, now we can have a conversation, right? But, you know, when you ask yes or no, I even think, look, I think observation questions in a Bible study when you're doing it on your own at home, I think that's great.

I think in a small group, you know, to ask the observation question, who did Jesus talk to? Who did? Yeah, you're like, the disciples. Okay, it's a little, rather than let's go ahead and say, okay, so Jesus was talking to his disciples. How did he talk to his disciples different than he talked to the Pharisees? That's an interesting question. It is. You know, and so, but I asked a lot.

You're very good at that. I asked a lot of the bad questions because I asked a lot of bad questions for a lot of years. Yeah. No, I feel like people like y'all who got that teaching spirit, like in school teaching spirit. Like I feel like teachers who teach in institutions, y'all, it's a practical approach that y'all have to stuff that when you didn't put that like into some Bible stuff, I like it. Well, we taught high school and middle school. So, you know, they are going to look at you like you're crazy if you ask a question that they can't answer. Sometimes even if you ask a good question.

They're not going to be nice to you. I don't know if you're crazy. Yeah. They're not going to be nice. Question. Do you think there's a difference between, I know that there is. So let me rephrase the question. What would be the difference between teaching the Bible to a group of teens versus teaching the Bible to a group of women in their 20s, 30s, 40s? Like, what is the approach different? If so, how? You see how I tried to leave it up? No, that was good. Thank you. That's good. That's good. That's good. Um, my approach is always different teaching adults versus teaching children or teenagers. I do feel that with women, often we can get very, I want to be so careful.

Mm-hmm. Sentimental. Not sentimental. I think that we can get very into how is this practically going to apply to my life. So I'm trying to get in. I'm trying to get the practical application and I'm trying to get out. And we're like, how is it going to apply to me finding a husband or how is this going to imply to me being able to get married or how's it going to apply to me having children or how's going to apply to me in my relationship with my husband? Like it's very getting into the trying to contextualize it into life immediately.

And I think with when I'm with younger people, they're a lot more interested in going off on all of the rabbit trails and like what does this mean? And it's also before they've gotten to the age where as Christians, I do think that we learn really bad habits sometimes. And one of them is to shut down the questioning to just be like, oh, oh, no, don't like the way that made me feel. So I'm going to bypass it. And so teaching teenagers, they haven't got that bad skill down yet. And so they're not bypassing the question that you're not supposed to ask. And I really enjoy that. That's good.

Yeah, they're so curious. Yeah, I like that. like approaching it with curiosity. I'll say this, when it's younger teens, like 12 or 13, I think there's some differences. But as they get older, the one thing, even my daughter will tell me, she's 17 now. And she's like, oh, I don't like the questions in those teen Bible studies. They always dumb it down for us. So they really, what I would say, they don't like.

They like what you're doing. You're taking them like on a journey. Let's see what does the text really saying? You're expecting more of them. what they hate is when you dumb it down for them. Yeah. Yeah. So in that sense, like I think they just don't like it when it's, you know, I mean, she hates it when it's pink and it's got big lettering and it's a girl's Bible study.

You know, she wants it to be like make her think. Yeah. And so I think both should. It shouldn't just be how is it going to impact how I live. It should be, how do I think about God differently? How's that going to, you know, how do I come to this? How do I understand what the Bible is saying differently? How do I understand the whole universe differently?

Yeah. You know, that's a bigger question. And I do think sometimes in our Bible studies, we don't want to go there. And go ahead and ask the hard question. Yeah. And take the time and take the. Yeah. Also, I am, I am women.

And so I too can just be like, I'm here, but my mind is all these other places. So how does this relate to all the other places that my mind is? and not necessarily let me put all the other places to the side and then approach just the word. Yes. Yes. So that makes sense. So you both are communicators, mothers, teachers, Christians, women, drinkers of coffee and tea. Tea.

And you also just are recently, has your Yondercombe day been released? No, September. September. And parenting with hope? Just like two weeks. ago. Okay. So tell, tell us about the books. Let us know. You go first. Okay. How good first. So parenting with hope is parenting with hope raising teens for Christ in a secular age. So it's kind of on the journey of being the parent of a teenager. What it is not is how to get your

teens to do what you want. That's not what it is. It's much more. It's not a book for like narcissistic parents. Yeah. Or to help people not be that. Yeah. I feel like I kind of hit every idol. Like I didn't like me as I wrote it at certain points because I really tried to attack our idols as parents.

And so I was like, oh yeah, when you start talking about sports culture and parenting, you know, it's going to get and or college and all these things that we kind of obsess about when kids get to the teen years. I really wanted to address what I was. seen in my own heart on those areas and what it can do to our kid. Because if I'm viewing my teenager as a curated version of myself, that is just never going to go well for them. It's not going to go well for a relationship. Basically, I'm trying to make them into, I'm the God and I'm trying to make them into my image rather than saying, who did God make you to be? That's good. And let's,

like, let's, I get to be part of that. I get to walk. through that with you rather than kind of trying to put you in my box. That's the me box. It's called enmeshment. Oh. Okay. Okay. So we don't want to do that. We don't want that. Instead, we get to, you know, I just, I loved, I have loved parenting teens. I will say that. I have loved watching. My three kids could not be more different. And I am amazed, you know, how the Lord grows them in ways that we can't control. I think I've come more into some of it is they're going to be who they're going to be. So I can't control what they do necessarily.

But maybe we have some impact on how they approach the world. Like the love we give them, the kindness, the fruit of the spirit in our homes impacts how they will view the world. So it's not about like what, you know, will they do this job or that job or whatever so much? but maybe they will look at it a little differently because they were in this incubator of love for 18 years and I think it changes how they go out into the world. I hope it does. Absolutely. Anyway, what about you? My book is called Yonder Come Day and it is actually had I had an editor bail on, a proofreader

bailed on reading it recently because it is about American chattel slavery. And they were like, I just wasn't expecting it to be this intense. And I was like, well, I mean, sorry. But it's also hopeful. So it centers around this group of narratives called the WPA narratives that were acquired in the 1930s as part of the New Deal. A bunch of interviewers went to 17 different states and they interviewed 2,500 formerly enslaved people in these 17 different states and they got their life stories from them. And some of them are really detailed and some of them are less detailed. Some of them you can tell the interviewer was really just like riffing and some of them you can tell that the interviewer was actually like listening to the interviewee and some, you know, it just

depends if the interviewer is a woman or if it's a man or if it's a black person or if it's a white And so there's all of that kind of like push and pull in the narratives. And so my book kind of brings together a lot of the stories in the narratives into a composite story of a main character who just experiences slavery from childhood and enslavement to eventual emancipation to being an elderly person being interviewed for the WP narratives in the 30s. That's clever. So that's, I can't wait to read it. Y'all are so. I can't wait to read it. accomplished.

Like y'all out here like making disciples through history and through parenting and stuff. I was just so honored. It's a blessing. Thank you guys. And well, I mean, not you, but the person who's drawn me on the couch, do you want to talk about him? So Preston has a book. Yeah. Called How to Tell the Truth, How the Lord.

How the Lord saved me to win hard to not arguments. And, you know, Preston, ever since I've known, Preston, that man has been an evangelist. It's just, that's just what he does. That's how he breathes. But I think one of the things that sets his resource apart from a lot of other apologetic resources is that it's not all intellectual or even around the subject of reasoning, but being.

Like how can you be Christian as you engage non-Christian belief systems? I told my Uber driver about him on the way over here. Did you? She was, her nephew has just become a Christian. We got talking because I was saying what we were doing this podcast. And that was like, what are you doing the podcast about? I was like, Ephesians. And she said, yeah, my nephew just became a Christian.

And basically he's trying to share with all of his friends. And they're all rejecting him. And she's like, so I need the name of your podcast so he can listen. And I actually said, well, he needs to listen to with the paris. And he needs to hear from Preston. That's funny. Because he's so good. Yeah.

I just love watching. I love watching. You watch him. Because we're so different. Yeah. Similar. Yeah. I do.

I remember I came to the realization that I do apologetic work to. It just isn't his kind. Yep. And so it felt like, oh, yeah, the Lord put us both together. Yeah, you love him. Anyway, bye y'all. Thank you all for joining us for what's the, what's the, we have to do favorite things. Oh, I'm sorry.

Go ahead. Because she made me. No, we have. She made, she made, she made her blush. She got a little. He was a Heidi flare up a little bit. Okay. Last favorite thing, since it's sort of a let's talk, it's a hybrid episode.

Favorite thing you're looking forward to this summer? Jackie's birthday. June 21st. Obviously. I'm turning 35. That feels like, that feel like, is that middle age? No. Let's talk.

45. No. No. Middle age is way older. It's way older. I'm just way, way, way, way, way older. It's like, oh, I'm going to be one of them people get the little neck fan, you know, when they're in church because the hot flash.

That sounds really good, though. It's practical. Yeah, I love that. I love that for them. That's what I'm looking for. 35 is my birthday. Are you going to do anything fun? I'm in between because I can sometimes live in a, this is honesty,

live in a place of self-exaltation or self-loathing. And so I'm like, I know I really cares. So I don't know if I'm doing anything. So I might. We'll see. We care. Thanks. Appreciate it.

What about you? I don't know. I am looking forward to, oh, to being done with my classes. Oh. Yeah. I might take one over the summer because I don't have any self-control. But I won't take three over the summer. I want you to rest this summer.

Three is my energy. I rest at night. I go to bed. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Close my eyes. Yeah. You close the eyelids.

That's my rest time. Summer is my least favorite season. It is actually. Yeah. It's so hot. So hot. Well, I feel like Christians will have freedom in any season. Like when you work in ministry,

summer is still a little busy. Yeah. Yeah. It's still busy. Yeah. But I am looking for you. My daughter is getting married this summer, which is crazy. And we love the guy she's marrying.

So that is really. fun. So it's going to be a real hot wedding, but I'm looking forward to it. You make sure you get you some good sedent spray. Some some good primer. So you don't start me doing. And one of those neck fans. I want to come with a neck fan. It sounds good. That's what you should have got me for my birthday. I thought I should have got you for your birthday.

Also my birthday was two weeks ago. Oh, was it? Oh, no. I turned 34 on April 7th. Happy birthday, January. I'm so sorry. I had no problem letting you know it's fine. She over here like, we care about your birthday meanwhile. I didn't know you had one. We'll send you some.

Truffle honey. I would love Trouble honey. I talked 34. 34. What did you do? I had a party. Philip threw me a birthday party. He did.

He did. Y'all didn't put this on Instagram. No, my friends, I had a few friends come over. It didn't happen. It didn't happen. I did picture the food because I cooked for my party. Of course you did. It wasn't cooking.

charcutory. That's not clicking. But I did like a table spread. It was really nice. Yeah. Very fun. I was so funny. Like the doorbell kept bringing in. I was like, ah, look at me having friends. Come on in. It was nice. Well, it was, it was special to create this resource with you guys and to do, what did we do? Three seasons. Yeah. Of Let's Talk and, you know, have all the laughs and the ha-haz, but also the weight and the depth of communication. truth through the lens of Jesus. So thanks for being on my couch and all the stuff.

Not you being said a model again. Cut it out. We love you too. Thanks. Appreciate it. Bye. With the Parish is produced by the Parrys with support from Amanda Reed and Channing McBride.

Video recording and audio production by Kim Powell, Abishai Perez, and Xavier Fairley. Edited by the team at Tread Lively, artwork by Hop and Music by Swoot. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.