With The Perrys - A Church Divided Cannot Stand with Pricelis Perreaux-Dominguez

Episode Date: September 14, 2026

People say, “We’re more divided than ever before,” but are we okay with that, or are we going to do something about it? Are we normalizing division and disrespecting God by not prioritizing something He does? Jackie and Preson are joined by Pricelis Perreaux-Dominguez for a conversation on fighting for unity in the church. Unity does not mean erasing differences to have complete uniformity – that can lead to tribalism, idolatry, and ultimately dehumanization. The church has to be willing to lean into discomfort for the sake of unity in the Body of Christ, and that’s going to require us to actively pursue proximity, curiosity, humility, and honest conversations. Check out “False Peace: How to Reject the Lie of Sameness, Embrace Difference, and Embody True Unity” – https://www.amazon.com/dp/1587436701 Connect with Pricelis www.instagram.com/pricelispd www.sowerssummit.com www.pricelispd.com Scripture references: Ephesians 4:1-3 Acts 1-12 (stories of the early church) This Episode is Sponsored by: https://gominno.com/ - Sign up online with code PERRY to get your first month FREE! https://magicspoon.com/PERRY - Get $5 off your next order! With The Perrys is a podcast where biblical truth meets honest conversation. Join Preston Perry and Jackie Hill Perry as they discuss theology, relationships, parenting, culture, and the everyday realities of following Jesus. With humor, transparency, and a deep commitment to Scripture, each episode aims to point listeners back to Christ, deepen their understanding of God's Word, and encourage faithful obedience in every area of life. Subscribe to the newsletter: ⁠https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s⁠ Follow Preston: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/preston_n_perry/⁠ Follow Jackie: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/jackiehillperry/⁠ Follow The Perrys: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/withtheperrys/⁠ Join Preston's discipleship community for men: ⁠https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership⁠ Shop BOLD Apparel: ⁠https://boldapparel.shop/⁠ ⁠withtheperrys.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi, St. Names. How are you? I hope you blessed. I hope you're happy. I hope you're good. I hope. I hope. Because you know, you put your socks on with your toenails and clip and then it kind of catch onto your sock. I actually think that's a very specific thing for you. Okay, then. Because I used to ask for Mr. I was like, hey, I got to get my nails done in a pedicure. I was like, do you want to go with me? Because I see your feet. And he was like, no, like, you know, you could do the girl thing by yourself. And I'm like, I think feet maintenance isn't necessarily a fitting. I thought she was asking that because you wanted to spend time with me. No?

I'm trying to process it if I did. I think I was trying to. I was like, I was in the car. I was like, she missed me. No, I think I was trying to. You just worry about my toenail. I was trying to consolidate time with you that would also be productive because I've seen your feet. Okay.

Because I know you're not fin of clip them. But I did. Oh. I would take it off, but I don't, I know my feet actually. because I put lotion on all the places that people could see today. That's good. Yeah. But what about the places people can't see?

They don't, I mean, they can't see it. Okay. We just want to welcome Pricelis to the podcast. How are you doing, Priscilla? Yeah, good, good. I'm here with you. I also don't always lotion. Yeah.

But. Y'all don't be itchy. But I do clip my nails. I clip my nails, too. I just don't do it as frequent as. Like, I'm not going to, like, go with Jackie to the nail place all the time. I'm like, I'd be feeling weird at that place. You need to go to a different place.

Yeah, I feel weird at that place. I'm like, uh. You need to go to a more welcoming place for a manager. I'm not even, I don't even know, I didn't hold you. One time we went to the, uh, we went to the Nelson line. And Preston was getting his feet done. He was like, yeah, tell them I don't, I don't want a man touching my feet. He's like, I, he was like, can you tell them?

And so I was like, hey, can we switch, like, technicians? And so. He was real polite about it. I was like, thanks. bro. Because there's something. And then I'm like,

I don't know. It's just weird. It's just weird. For me, it's just weird with a man holding his hand like that. Are you doing,

if you doing? That's how my husband is with massages. Like, it's just that doing that. Imagine a man massage of your feet

and looking you in your eyes. Like, looking in your eyes. I'd be like pause. Like, we got to stop. And then, and then,

and then I'm going to say this and we can move on. They brought a whole cheese grater out for my feet. Oh, for sure they did. The little thing.

And it reminds me the episode of Martin, you got to go to work on Myron's feet. I was like, are you really got a, well, you shred cheese? Yeah, there's callous. Wow. That's okay. Sorry, this has nothing to do with what you are bringing to the Lord's Church. You know what I'm saying? But I think these are matters that are important.

It is. It does matter. And actually, kind of related, because it's like making space for different kinds of people. That's good. Right? To be able to get services and things that they need. That's good. in one space.

I like how you made that look in nature. It's a little reach, but this is all good. You as a teacher. For some of these, people who may be familiar with you or unfamiliar with you, just tell us what you would want people to know about you. It ain't got to be deep. It's just, this is who I am. I feel like a big part of who I am is just I'm from New York City. Okay.

NYC, baby. That says a lot. Yeah, I'm just like, you know. And I think also like, because I don't mean, obviously there's people in ministry in New York, but like, obviously, And often when I go to other places, people are just like, amazed. Like, wow, New York City. I'm like, yeah. Yeah.

It's just. It's his own world. Yeah. I think. I think that's why I enjoy it. I do enjoy the rudeness. Yeah, New Yorkers are crazy. We call it direct.

It's not rude to me because it's not pretentious. Yeah. And so it feels like it just is what it is. Like I prefer that rather than like, I think living in the South, there's a level of like, you know. nice, but I don't actually think you like me. Yeah. My friends from the South can't really deal with New York, but I'm from Chicago, and so, like,

we just, it's kind of what you see is what you get with us. In New York, it's a little more, a little more rude. Like in Chicago, y'all might, we might get. No, Chicago's violent. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I went for the first time last year to Chicago. I had a great time. Man, it's a great city.

It's a great city. So we are here to talk, she has a book called False Peace. You went straight to it. You understand? Even your book. even the subtitle, how to reject the lie of sameness, embrace difference, and embody true unity. One, even your previous book, you seem to create, have a heart for the body and making sure the body is functioning according to its design. And so I'm interested even in what brought,

like, what about this topic? Like, did you have an experience? Was you reading scripture? Were you seeing stuff on the news? Where you like, no, this needs to actually be a project that I commit myself to. Like, what was that? Yeah, I just, I kept seeing, like, people kept saying everywhere, both in, like, secular spaces, the news, the church. It's like, oh, we're more divided than ever. And I'm like, are we okay?

Like, are we okay with that? Like, it continues to be a thing that we say, but it's like, are we going to do something about it? So it just became, like, at first it was like, yeah, I was hearing it a lot, but then I'm just like, I'm concerned that we're content with this. And we agree on it. Well, so praise God we agree on something, but we agree on the wrong thing. We shouldn't agree and be content with division. And then even people outside of the church seeing that too. So I just started

thinking more about it and I went to scripture and I was like, oh, unity is like serious. Unity is like a serious thing to God. And not like just some verses in Ephesians. Like from the beginning to revelation, unity is really important to God. And, um, and so. So I was just like, are we also disrespecting God by like not prioritizing something that he clearly prioritizes? So yeah, I just like kind of went on a journey. And honestly, the journey was a big bulk of like grief. And then I was like, okay, how can I use this grief to help the church? Why grief? Because it's sad. It's sad that we're so divided. It's sad that people only like want to agree. It's sad that people are just seeking like affirmation through agreement and not affirmation

through like, hey, you're my brother, you're my sister. And so it felt like it was becoming like really superficial, very normalized to, and it also like causes dehumanization and oppression. Like, right? Like division is not something actually very light. And so I grieved it. And that's what I talk about in scripture was like the first moment I prayed for unity for the church, which I also like I lamented that. I was like, dang girl, it took you, you know, 32 years to pray for unity in the church. Like I pray for the church in different ways, but I had never prayed that. And I reflected on like maybe it's because I'd never heard a sermon on it and things like that.

And so I, yeah, I went through just really like a journey of lamenting, grieving. And then I was like, okay, I want to take this and use it with to do something. And so I wrote. What's interesting is follow my turn and thought. So the beginning of your book. you open up the book talking about lament, which was interesting because, one, lament is in the subject that I think a lot of people spend time on, even though it takes up a lot of space in scripture. But also, me and Preston were having a conversation last night about just division and injustice,

particularly within relationships, like people treating people a certain kind of way or slander and gossip and stuff like that. And Preston was asking, can I say this, he was asking the question about, from a male perspective, like how, I don't remember what you said. What did you say? You talked for a long time. You got to tell me which part of the conversation. You said something about men being, knowing, like, how do you reckon with unfairness or injustice?

Yeah. And what I said is I think, I think it's not just an intellectual understanding that people have to have, but I think people have to have, they have to learn how to grief injustice. Yeah. unfair like you know what I'm saying because there's a degree to which life is just unfair yeah and so if you don't learn how to lament then you won't actually have the bearings to to endure it and to respond in love and so I would be I just want to know how how what's the relationship between lament and division and unity like why is that a thing yeah so I think particularly for me when I think about just like all throughout my life I belong to several demographics that go through different injustices, right? And for a lot of my life, I've responded to those injustices with anger. And I've seen that the fruit of that is not helpful, right? Like, yeah, we can be angry, but, like, it doesn't lead to necessarily anything, especially, like, not righteous anger, just straight up anger with, like, bitterness. And then in growing up and becoming an adult and learning

about lament, I was like, hmm, maybe this is, this is an approach to respond to injustice and division in a different way. And so I think, and the important part about that is because lament is to grieve with God, right? And to just be angry is like, we got to go to therapy and process through that, right? Like, that's a different kind of process in situation. So being able to lament, I think, would help us include God in the acknowledgement that we are divided. I think we just acknowledge it. But if we were to include God and say, like, Lord, we recognize this.

So we're going to lament through this, but also like take steps to help. change it. And so that's why I wanted to start with it because it was to teach the church and invite the church to this spiritual practice that includes God's presence and includes God. It's not just us from our own strength trying to unify, but actually like include him. You know, find the stuff for your kids to watch that ain't ratchet and blasphemous and wicked and horrific and satanic and demonic and bad and not good. It's not really the easiest thing to do. But you also want something fun for your kids to watch. You want to be interesting.

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old Perry to get your first month free. Yeah, I love how in the book you distinguish unity from uniformity. And you talk about how they're not the same. And you made a really great case of why it divides people. One, why does the church confuse the two? Why do you think that that is? Yeah. And why do you think it's problematic?

Yeah, I mean, I think so specifically in the United States. And I think this could apply to different places, because. because colonization has happened everywhere, basically. But I think part of the root of uniformity is colonization. It was the start of prioritizing certain people over others and prioritizing a way of being in culture over others. And so I think just throughout centuries, that then became uniformity within the church.

It became this like, oh, we're going to center one culture, one way of being, even when like gender, right? Like women are kind of secondhand, even though we make up the majority of the church, women are secondhand, right? Like, black culture in the church is often finding black church, right? Like, you won't find gospel to be the center kind of worship in a church. You'll probably find CCM, right?

Like, Spanish Coritos, maybe you'll find it in different kinds of ways. But it feels like it just is a fruit of the establishment of colonization within this country. And also, uniformity is, like, the easy way, right? Like, it feels safe. Yeah, it doesn't have to take the time to pay attention to different kinds of people and their needs and how they can be included in this space, whether it's their culture, whether it's their disability, their gender. It doesn't have to take time to have them at the table and share about themselves. And so uniformity or racist, right? People, it keeps people, their voice diminish or silent. And so it's really just the normalized easy way that we've been doing things.

You know one thing I just thought about, I thought about, because another thing that you kind of highlight in the book is you have linen in your hair. Go ahead and get it out from bed. You better be a helper. It means that the color of your hair is in uniform. Okay. Well, another thing that you highlight in the book, you talk about how, like, how it's beneficial for us to get out of our spaces that's comfortable and go in other spaces or whatever.

thinking about like, when I go to Dallas or the Bible Belt, I see the consistent type of people like I see black people in this, you know, and even in Chicago, we have like every culture and every, you know, but we're really segregated. In New York is one of those places where you see a melting pot of different people. And I'm wondering if like even your upbringing in New York has kind of giving you a heart for all people groups that has, you know, because I do think that in some weird way that New York is kind of how heaven will be. I don't really see an African man walking down the street holding Asian woman's hand in Dallas, like I see in New York.

And I do think that like even your proximity to just different people, groups and different cultures, showed you the potential of what the body of Christ can actually be like in a more sanctified way. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, it's exposed me to like also willing to be the other. So I talk about in the book, like obviously we don't want people to be other. othered, right? That means like we're excluding them, but that we should be the other in a space. So like go into spaces that you are different and you are maybe not the majority. And I think

people can think about this, an example of like race, like that's the more obvious one, but also like theologically, right? Like do you only enter spaces where it's like your same denomination where everyone agrees with you theologically, right? The same thing with whether it's like gender or like your cultural background. So just like willing to go into the spaces because especially like you don't live in New York and that's not your norm, right? Like actually trying to practice it and intentionally enter in those spaces. I don't have to necessarily practice that because it's literally my every day. But I still want to more, it's more of my everyday.

I would say culturally, right? But like I do have to intentionally enter into different spaces, theologically and and yeah, even worldview and point of view. Yeah, that's good. The first time I met Priscilla, she had had, has a conference. called Soar Summit. I was doing it ironic. The first time, yeah.

Last year in particular, was that last year? It had to be last year. I came and it was a unique time in America because it was the same week that Charlie Kirk was murdered. And the way Soar Summer's Functions, there's something so small yet significant. One, there was all these different kinds of people in the room, which you don't really see in conferences like that.

That's one. Two, there were different languages centered during the worship. Yeah. When I first did your conference, I was like, okay. Yeah, like you had, obviously English, I think you had Haitian. And then the first time I went to so or something, I was like, I ain't going to hold you. I'm going to be honest. There's this sense in which I wanted to detach when I couldn't understand anymore, where it's like, all right, not even mad.

It's just like, yeah, I don't, I just know what y'all saying. So, but it's like I had to change my mind even in the moment to say, okay, how do you still engage with the body and engage with God even when listening to a song saying in a language that you don't understand? And I was like, to me, that's just a small part of the challenge, but also the beauty. And so particularly with last year, it was like there was so much noise happening when Charlie Kirk was murdered that to be in this space that was so distinct. But one was deep. And I remember turning to Megan, I was like, I just felt like this is what happened is going to be like. And I don't mean that like just to say it.

I mean like I really mean that. And so I guess I'm comparing two ideas how there's a degree of self-awareness one has to have. There is a degree of death that someone has to take to be able to lean into difference. I don't even have a question. Yeah. Just say whatever comes to you. Because that's what I was kind of thinking too. And it was kind of, yeah, I was going to ask a question, what, what causes us to turn to uniformity?

And I was thinking it's comfort. It is. Yeah. It's not wanting to feel uncomfortable. And I think uniformity is just easier than unity. Yeah. It's easier. Yeah.

And so I think, like, I think how to, as a church, how do we attack that thing? Yeah. Yeah. I feel the same way. I was like, yeah. It's literally practicing discomfort, right? So I talk about that in the book of just like, I mean, like, you know, we like to be comfortable, right? Like that's just the reality of life.

Like that's not to say like to be comfortable is like sinning. But we it's so interesting because like when I think about like Jesus ministry, all I see is discomfort. Like he didn't know where he was going to be sleeping. Like he didn't know what was going to, you know, like his disciples, they were being brave enough. They didn't know what their next meal was going to be. Like it was just a ministry of discomfort. like always being like confronted by somebody. I'm just like, dang, like, you know, did y'all take a break or something like that?

Right? Like it was just a lot of discomfort. And what I learned from that, I saw that was like they were practicing it. Like they were living in it, but they were practicing discomfort for the sake of the gospel, for the sake of people being healed and walk in freedom. And so I think that's an invitation for us to do the same. Like, are we willing to practice discomfort? Right.

So like be in a moment like that. And the same thing. I don't know Korean. Right? It was a Korean, so I said, yeah, I feel like she's saying how great they are. Right, like I know a word here and there, but like even like to me not knowing Korean, right, like making sure that that's still something that happens because I'm inviting,

but not just inviting, you know, our Korean brothers and sisters to come, but like saying like you are welcome here. And not just like saying, because, you know, we all, Christian spaces like welcome home. whatever, you're welcome here, come as you are. But like literally, like, no, actually you're going to hear the language perhaps that you grew up with or your parents like saying worship in. And so it's going beyond to just like do the comfortable thing. I'm like, yeah, everybody's welcome.

It's like, no, I actually like made a table for you and thought of you when creating this. And I think we can do that on Sunday services. I think we can do that in Christian spaces. I think we can do that with our ministries. I think we could do that with a lot of different things. we have to be willing to practice discomfort and not just center ourselves with everything that we're doing. Yeah.

I'm sorry. Go ahead. It seems like you're a fan of discomfort. Fan is crazy. This is what I say. What? And I pointed. Because it was so accusatory.

Are you a fan? It just gives. Like, that's what you like to do. Because we talked about this last time Priscilla was here. You don't like green rooms. Mm-mm. Right? even during her conference, all the lights were up.

It was really bright, you know what I'm saying? Like, we're not fend to be praising in the dark. And so it's like, you're, I'm just, how are you raised? Like, I'm just really intrigued. Just because it's, it's like, she said uncomfortably. You're always blowing, you're always coming against what feels normal. Yeah. That should not be normal.

Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, let us into to Preseli's heart in mind. I saw it that way. But yeah, I mean, I grew up, I grew up everywhere. So I did grow up in New York City, but we moved a lot even within New York City. We lived in Dominican Republic when I was little, right? I went to high school, New Jersey, like, just scattered.

I went to probably like nine different schools growing up. And in my whole life, we just bought house, praise the Lord. But when I was counting, I was like, look at all the addresses I've had. I'm like, oh, I've moved 23 times. And I'm 36 years old. And so, like, I think part of just even moving. and having to adjust to different spaces. Speaking of New York, yes, it's diverse, but often neighborhoods are a predominant thing,

like a predominant culture. So I, like, went to high school where it was like 90% Korean. My first year of college, I lived in a Hasidic Jewish neighborhood, right? Like, I have lived around all different kinds of people. Currently, my neighbor is, one is Indian next to me. The other one's Puerto Rican across the street is West African, right? So, like, that has been like my norm on my life. Growing up in church, I went to a Spanish-speaking church.

My, our main pastor was Scottish. Okay. A white Scottish man. Come on, Alistabag. Spanish to connect with his congregation and not just preach to them. Um, and so like all my life I have just, it's, it's been a norm to me. So I wouldn't, I wouldn't necessarily say like it's a discomfort that was, it was always a discomfort, but I'm used to different.

I'm used to, um, diversity in all the ways that it exists. And so yeah, I think it's just like, I, I think it, it, it, it, it, it, it, It has, I've seen how it has shaped me. And I was like, I wonder, like, that can be something, even if that doesn't get to be your lived experience, if you can make it, your lived experience. So that can be something that, like, spiritually matures you. I don't know about y'all, but I'd be wanting to eat some of the cereals that I eat growing up. But it's not until you grow up, you realize a lot of those series are not healthy.

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slash Perry. That's magic spoon. dot com slash perry for five dollars off. This kind of explains like the next question I was going to ask you. I broke this particular thing down as you said in your book. You said, yeah, it kind of makes sense now. You said if most people or if most of the people around you agree with me, think like me, look like me, spend money like me, have privileges like me, not only will we have a

limited view of life, but we will also have a limited view of faith. Mm-hmm. Break that down. Yeah. It's particularly the faith part. Yeah. And what I mean faith is like the development of like our spiritual maturity and theology, right? I was telling, I was on, I was intermed with Preston Sprinkle yesterday in his podcast.

And I was telling him at 30 years old, so six years ago in the pandemic, is when I learned that people have differing views about women pastoring and preaching. I live 30 years not knowing that there were. other perspectives because I grew up with female pastors. That's all I knew. And so I arrived to 30 years old and I was like, oh, people think differently, right? Even despite all my moving and all kinds of those kinds of things. And so when I look back at that and think about that, although, right, like I was grateful for my upbringing, I had a limited view of even like what womanhood looks like in scripture, what women can do or perhaps can't do, right? Like it was, people could say it was like celebrating women, but it was still limited because it was only one

way of seeing it and thinking of it. And that also what it did is when I did learn about different perspectives, it made me like, I reacted offended. I reacted and was like, oh wait, people think these different ways. And I had, it was like an immature reaction because all I knew was one way. But when we introduce ourselves and expose ourselves to different kinds of theology, different kinds of people, then I think we actually get more affirmed and grounded in what we believe, but also we can understand why people believe what they believe. Like, we're just so quick to be like, oh, they're just wrong, and I'm right. And it's like, well, why do you think they're wrong?

Like, do you actually, like, do you actually know why they arrived to that conclusion? Why did you arrive to your conclusion? Actually, is it because of scripture or because your mama told you why he was growing up, right? So I think having an expanded view of different kinds of people and exposing ourselves to different kinds of theology. Depending on, you know, also where we are in our theology, for example, when I first came to the faith, I think that was a place to, like, stay grounded. Like, don't learn about other stuff, right?

Like, that's a moment to, like, really stay grounded. But once some time has passed, I think we should expand and learn about different views and theologies and, yeah, expand our mindset because then it just becomes this, like, it becomes like a little culty, like, right? Like, we live, like, this one little world where, like, this is all I know and this is all that is true when there's other things that are true. Yeah. Yeah.

That's good. So I do, I think the way my mind is processing is the practical, like how to love, enjoy, appreciate and be united with believers who have different theological leanings, right? So, for example, I might lean more on the loose, what do you call it, complimentary inside when it comes to church order and structure. Yet at the same time, I'm not intimidated or threatened by those who would disagree because I actually understand both sides of the aisle. But I think I understand because I've lived and I've been in Pentecostal churches. I've been in Baptist churches. I've been at reform conferences.

I've been in, heck, seven-day events. Like, I've lived in so many different spaces, but also see people as people. And so, and I think having, there's this frame of like mine called theological triage where it's like, yeah, I'm not going to be fighting you over stuff that ain't like heresy. And so I don't know.

I guess I actually want to talk to that because I think that's a really big point of contention in the church often that creates. And I think the enemy really, gets in there when it comes to these types of things. Does it make sense what I'm saying? Yeah, also too. And just to add to that, you know, I've had so many conversations with people in the Christian industry, whether it was teachers, artists, who've always tried to pick my brain, I think, in the different spaces they see me and Jackie go in because I think they've

only, even if they've done ministry for a long time publicly, they've kind of only been invited to one, you know, well, we've been invited to the gospel coalition and the Pentecostal church the next week. You know what I said? And so I think being in those different environments does give you, because you're not necessarily dealing with positions, you're actually doing life with people. And I think that's the difference. And so I would love to hear your perspective. Yeah. I think, man, I think this is so important. When I learned about theological triage, honestly, it changed my life. And it confronted me in the most humble way. because I was like, I'm going to fight about everything.

Let's fight about everything. And also part of it was like grief of like, wow, Lord, like, why do we disagree on so many things? But then when I learned about that, I was like, oh, we don't got to be fighting so much. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I would talk to people. I'm like, oh, a lot of people don't know about this concept. Can you explain it real quick? Yeah.

So, and I talk about it in my book. So there's the first level, I guess you could say first tier. And these are like non-negotiables, right? which I would really just say is like is the gospel, right? Like the gospel, the doctrine of the Trinity, like things that are salvific that affirm and agree that Jesus is God, that Jesus saves and the only one that can save, right? So like that is the first tier level. Some people I've noticed maybe have added things to that.

I was like, no, let's keep it. That's the center. Christalich. And then, yes. Yes. Yeah. And then, which also gives us distinction of like different people, let's say like Mormons and things like that, right?

Like it keeps us distinct. in saying that we're Christian. And the second one, the second and the third, and some people add a fourth, are preferences, are interpretation, right? So, like, interpretation of, like, women leadership, interpretation of sexuality, interpretation of baptism, right? Baby baptism, believers baptism. So it's interpretation of different kinds of things.

And then some levels go into, like, preference, right? Like, do y'all want service to be dark or light, right? what kind of worship music will we have? Will we have liturgy? Will we not have liturgy? How that, you know, functions within the church. And so I think it's so important because, like, right? Like, I'm talking about like, I don't like a pitch dark room.

But is that going to be a reason why I don't go into a space or I don't go to a church? Like, that's not the gospel and that's not salvific. Y'all like that? Cool. Because you have people that would make a whole podcast about how y'all ain't saved because your room is dark. It's like you're, you move past. No, I've seen, I've seen that. Have you seen that online?

No, I'm saying that's a lot of the content is us making not like issues that ain't actually that deep too deep. Because I saw a do it. I saw a dude on TikTok literally talking about everybody who got dark churches and demonic. I was like, boy, you just get at the dark. You probably, you probably sleep with a night light on right now and you're 38. You just scared of the dark. There's trauma.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And then people, we kind of make a whole. And the thing is, these things are important. They get to matter to us, right? Like our preferences, how we have interpreted things, absolutely matter. But it cannot be at the same level of passion of the gospel. It cannot be the same level of passion of like that Jesus is God of the Trinity, right? And that's how we like can treat it.

Right. Like someone saying in my position like, oh, you're sitting with your like position in church. I'm like, that's crazy. Right. Like that's a lot. So I think what it does, it should create opportunities for curiosity and conversation. Not curiosity and conversation with the gospel, right, in the first tier. But the other things should create conversation, right?

Should create curiosity. But we just, we want to be right more than we want to create room to like talk. We just be like, no, I'm right and everyone else is wrong. And I'm like, that's just too much. And that's not as spiritually mature as people may make it seem. Yeah. We haven't asked a really important question, which is why is you, important.

Like you said from the beginning, so not even Ephesians yet, but like in eternity, unity has always existed. And so I guess speak to that. Yeah. When I was like learning about this and going through scripture and particularly going through Revelation, I was so encouraged to see like that the Lord was writing these letters to churches, to groups of people, right? And consistently in talking about the future and talking about the second coming.

And it was not like you. It was like y'all, like the church, the people of God. And I think sometimes we see even like the cross as a very individualistic thing. Like yes, like you are saved by yourself, right? Like your whole family is not saved because you're saved. But there is like it can be like a very like individualistic approach to it, which then people separate like, oh, I'm saved. And I love the church, but like, you know, I'm not part of the church.

I'm like, that's just not true. Like whether you go to a church on Sunday or not, you are automatically a part of the body. And so even that concept of like being the body of Christ, he could have just said, oh, my followers, the people, right? But he was like, no, y'all are a thing, one thing together. And so that's why like I talk about in the book, like I believe scripture emphasizes oneness and not sameness. And oneness with the purpose that when he comes back, he is coming back for a people, not individual people. And I don't know how that will look when it comes to like heaven. But it's, I think it's an important thing to consider because we, you know, obviously we like, we'll have our quiet time.

And obviously when you get baptized, you go under by yourself. All these things happen an individual basis. But we are one body and we are having these experiences as one or we at least should. And I don't know how much people see it that way. They separate themselves, especially if they feel some type of way about the church. And like, I'm a pastor. I feel some type of wave about the church sometimes, right? But I still belong to the body no matter what.

And it's kind of the idea of like, my family, you know, be wallowing sometimes. And I still belong to my family no matter what, right? But I don't know how much like people see it that way or also how much they see that God cares for it to exist that way. Yeah, because even when you talk about one of the key fundamentals of the faith, the Trinity, I can just imagine how it breaks the lower heart when the church doesn't reflect them because we essentially serve one God in nature

who exists in three separate distinct co-equal persons but these co-equal persons have been unified for all of eternity. And I think if we cannot connect in our differences, we just don't reflect God. I think that's the reason why it breaks, like we don't look like God when we cannot be unified.

with a God who has always been unified for all of eternity. And I think, yeah, I think just knowing that we can understand, like, why this is her feels for love. Even that example, I love, I talked about this about like in the relation, the idea of Jesus came and became an other among people because he's not like us. He's God. Right? Even the Holy Spirit within us, not like us, they are God, right?

And so even that choice to come and be different, he could have came in like been a rich Roman, right? Like, but he did it. And so like that's such a good example. But choosing to like see as like, oh, he didn't just come and to be the other, right? And live among people that he would disagree with, but that he exists in three persons. He came prepared having already been in community, having already been in unity. That's so good. Yeah. I think being able to be distinct yet one ultimately requires humility and love.

And I think about marriage the most because we're so different, you know. We're not just different in our temperaments. We're not just different in our upbringings. We are fundamentally different in our gender. And so how we respond, how we process, how we think, how we feel. You're a meanie. I'm just playing. I can be the way our bodies are made.

And if I'm honest, I think marriage with a man is automatically interesting to me because I was gay. No, really? Shut up. So I'm, sameness was safe for me. You know what I'm saying? And so then to exist in a union where there is distinction and that is actually good has always been something that I've had to process. You know what I'm saying? And so I think, but the difficulties within us are the things that God uses to sanctify us.

You understand what I'm saying? Like, I have to humble myself to love a different person. Yeah. Like, that's just the reality. And I also think that's one of the gods hearts in one of the gods. I'm sorry, I also think that's a pantheon. I also think that's like one thing God is alluding to is our sanctification because the reality is God has called us to do life with other broken people who are different, who are going to stretch us. And we got to be challenged if we're going to be sanctified.

Yeah. You know, and if you really want to be sanctified, get married, Bucco. Facts. That's, that's sanctify you. Get married. I want to be sanctified, Lord. Okay. Say I do.

That's a fact. Yeah. I want to read something and y'all could just speak to it. I was reading this last night because me and Preston were talking about, I think I said this, we were talking about unity. And this morning I woke up and I was praying for unity after reading Ephesians. And what was coming to my mind, it sounds real simple, but it grieved me because I see it in myself. It's like, I was like, Lord, we're not unified because we're not obeying you. I would just not obeying you. And I'm like, so Paul in Ephesians 4, he says, I therefore a prisoner for the Lord urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called. With all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to make. I'm like eager, we are not eager to maintain another. Eager to maintain the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace.

I don't know. What is? Yeah. Yeah. I think in those verses, so that's like, that was like my main verses for the book. And so the words that I really, like, stood out to me were humility and patience, right? Patience being fruit of the spirit and just humility being like one of the most, I would say, overlooked characteristics of Jesus, right? Like just consistently humble. And it's like, are we that, right? Like, and again, it goes to that part of like, do you rather just like, like be right and like be the have the right, right theology and like be the majority or like

you willing to be humble and learn and be one with this person. There are moments though to not be one. Okay. And I was like, Paul, you could roll a little bit more right there. I'm not going to disrespect scripture. But like, because I, so I talk about that because I think that is also important. So like yes and amen to all those things. But I, you know, I talk about like how their division harms for the most part, but sometimes it helps. And there are parts in scripture, specifically like in Romans and Ephesians where it talks about like there will be people who will try to divide y'all. Right. And so pay attention to them. Be aware to pay attention because one, there are people trying to divide the church, but also there are spirits trying to divide the church.

And I think that's something to just be discerning and pay attention to. And I particularly talk about that to discern like the spirit of dehumanization and darkness. Say more. So like if someone's theology is oppressive or race or false or racist to the point of like harming people, then there, I think there is room for to divide there. But it still does not mean I dehumanize that person back. Right. Like what I'm seeing a lot today is that, okay, oh, that person.

is dehumanizing their theology is dehumanizing. So we're going to dehumanize them back. I'm like, how do I mean? It doesn't make sense. That person is still image bearer, right? They still deserve dignity. But yes, we should divide from theology that harms people and oppresses people and divides people, right? And so I think sometimes people will identify that with just something they disagree with. So it won't be something that's harmful, but they just be like, nah, I just disagree with that. So that's demonic. I'm like, that's, and I mean, people do that with you, right? Like, they would be like, they disagree with you. And so it's just like, it's a whole, it becomes a whole thing.

And it's like, well, we have to be mindful of really discerning is this doctrine, is this theology actually harmful and oppressive and dehumanizing and dark for people and towards people? Not just because you don't like it and not just because you don't agree with it. And that requires, I think, community. Because just by ourselves in our head, we'll make up that it actually. community that's different to, not just community that would affirm what you think and what you believe, but diversity of community to be like, I see what you mean, but I think you're stretching it. You know, I see what you mean, but like, yeah, I agree. Maybe like they shouldn't have said it that way or the way they think is not fully wrong, but like, I don't know if that's heretical or I don't know if that's dehumanizing. So we need each other too to help us discern through when division is necessary. I'm oppressed a little bit because I'm hearing how people could interpret what you're saying, not many people, but some people, because there's a lot of

language around the actual scriptural truth being considered harmful, particularly when it comes to sexuality. So how does someone rightly define what is actually harmful and what is just suppression of truth? How do you distinguish between that? Yeah, I had a conversation with this, with someone about this, about a different political topic that I will mention right now. And I mean, I think what we talked about is being mindful of, again, the determination of harmful, not being based on your preference or interpretation of scripture. Harmful across the board, which is what oppression is, no one can argue oppression, right? Like, you can't argue dehumanization. So I don't often use the word harmful, but I want to sometimes because someone will be like, oh, that's not a

oppressive. Oh, that's not dehumanizing. All right, sure. Maybe don't go to that extreme, but it's harmful, right? And so I think, for example, coming to a conclusion, coming to a conclusion that you align to the historically sexual ethic, not through scripture, but because you're homophobic. Got it. That's harmful. Interesting. Can you tell me in scripture where you arrive to this conclusion? No, you can't. You're just homophobic. Right? Like, same thing like let's say someone's like complementarian they can't you they can't arrive to no scripture that affirms it. It's like oh so you're sexist right like that's harmful because you're not using scripture to arrive to your conclusion. Interesting. So it's it's harmful when scripture

not use an exegetical way and in community is not being used to arrive to the conclusion. Yeah it's like you're you're saying holding a theological position but under the guise of some kind of heart that isn't loving God and loving people. Yeah. Which people can still interpret as homophobic, all those different things. And I mean, we can argue with people. Because you're asserting yourself as authority and not the scripture. And I think, yeah.

And so we have to know that scripture is authoritative and not necessary you. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. I think that's good. I think that's real good. And again, that's why unity is important, right? Because like we shouldn't be having these conversations in like silo spaces just

everyone agrees spaces. Everyone thinks the same thing spaces. Because then that's what will happen. Like we'll all agree that this is like harmful. And it's like, well, there's no outside voice voicing something else. We're all just like an echo chamber. For sure. Yeah.

It gives the necessity of truly proverbs, you know, like wisdom cries out. Like I think there has to be a degree of just wisdom and discernment that we have to walk in. Because even when you were talking about necessary division, I think it requires discernment to know when division is necessary and when division is actually sinful. Because even I think when I had did that live last year about false profits and people were saying that me to expose false profits was divisive. When I'm like, no, this is actually necessary division because they're lying to you.

Paul did it. You know what I'm saying? Like this is a necessity. And they hated him too. And I think because we're so used to division, we actually don't need, we don't know how to discern what good division is. So that's probably why people are reacting because they're just like, oh, everything's division and everything, every form of division is bad. I'm like, no, let's relax. Like, there are two different kinds. How have you seen your church cultivate unity? Like, what are the practices that y'all do to maintain the bond of peace?

I think one of my favorite things that we do is something called the listening posts. So we every month as pastors, we create a space to just listen to one another and listen to people, listen to their feedback, listen to negative things, positive things, how they're growing in the faith, maybe what they want to see, be happening in the church. And people can say anything. And they do say anything. They do say anything they want. And we create this space more than anything so people can hear one another.

but so they can also know that this is a, this is a church that listens and is willing to, and wants to prioritize oneness and not sameness. Because if we wanted to prioritize sameness, we wouldn't create that space because everyone would have to just agree. And if you don't agree, you know, leave. And so that's something that I really love that we do because it creates a unifying space

where we can have differing perspectives, but we're in one space together. People aren't like submitting like a feedback form via email. Like we are in a sense. space together in sometimes tension of saying things that perhaps are hard. And also, we're not necessarily trying to even find solutions in that moment. It's just to share with one another and listen to one another. And it's a really unique thing that I wish, yeah, more churches would do and consider because, and even not just churches like friend groups, right? Like in

ministries in different spaces that could just make room for curiosity, for sharing, for listening. And I think that's one thing that we really do well because we come from all different kinds of backgrounds, right? Like there are New Yorkers, non-New Yorkers, different cultural backgrounds. People have different kind of theological perspectives. And it creates, yeah, it creates room. And it also affirms that you don't have to agree with everything to be a part of this space and this church. Yeah, I love my church. Yeah, that's really good.

You know, I've seen a lot of division. in the body of Christ, when when I first started to see it, it's when all the political stuff start happening. That political class, and I've never really been into politics like that. But I remember when, and I'm asking this question, I want to talk about, I think, tribalism.

Yeah. And also, because I remember when, I think it was George Floyd, I think it was George Floyd who died, and I saw a lot of my white brothers and sisters online acting to hear black stories. And so I was like, okay, cool. I'm from the hood.

I got some black stories. And I remember just getting online and I wasn't, it wasn't about Trump or Biden or I think it was Hillary. I don't, I'd be thinking they all liars. I don't really get into politics like that. But I was like, okay, this is an opportunity for me to tell my story. And I remember just the pushback I got. And I prayed about it. And I wrote it in my book.

I said, I said, when we love. policies and politics more than we love people. When people share that story, we won't hear testimony, but we hear a position. Yeah. And I think a lot of times that's how we function. It's like, I think a lot of division and a lot of non-unity is because we have been kind of trained to listen to where someone stands, not actually hear them. We're not actually listening to people. We're listening to be like, who are you, who are you a part of? Yeah. We're like, and so we think, we think of people in groups, which automatically disunifies us.

And so I'm thinking, like, what is, how do we attack that? Yeah. That's something that I want to, yeah, that bothers me. Because when I meet a person, I don't want, I don't really care about what you, like, where you stand more so than who you are. Like who raised you? You know, like what, and I think a part of, I think because you're an evangelist, you hold both.

Yes. And so it's like you can be talking to a Mormon, but you're looking at Jason. Yes. And trying to understand Jason to bridge into the. So I'm asking Elder John, not just why did you come to the LDS faith. I'm also asking Elder John, tell me about your dad. Yeah. Yeah.

Tell me about you. do like you know like and so like i i don't know and so i love that your church does that because it it humanizes people and we just don't humanize people in the body of christ and all the time we can't humanize you a little bit if you land in our circle that's when you can become human yeah but if you're not you're just a position how do we attack that i mean well one thing you said is it bothers me that should be everyone it should bother all of us right like it shouldn't be something that is okay with us like it should bother us um also i would say is that that's giving idolatry right like let's just that's idolatry right like like the church say amen to say like it's like i'll like you have to agree

with like this one leader or vote this way like that's that's that's a that's a idolatry of theology that's an idolatry of perspective uh it's just it's centering not god and it's centering um personal you know a political party all these different kinds of things um rightness and And I think if we were to admit that it's idolatry, then what happens when there's idolatry happening to sin? We get to repent, right? Like, we can collectively repent together. But what happens, I think, is people are not naming it as idolatry because they're in these tribes.

So unless someone in the tribe itself is calling it out or calling that, it's not going to happen because they're comfortable, right? Like they're like, yeah, we all agree. We're all in the space. you know, maybe we're sending by making this an idol, but like this is, this is what we believe to be true or right or biblical, which again is why we need to be exposed to different kinds of things, people, because even someone else might be like, yeah, that's, you know, that's, that's idolatry. And so I think that's a huge part of like what we're living with like today

is just like sides have become like your identity, like the way like someone is, is their gender or their culture, like literally what they stand on is an identity they hold to. And I'm like, but you forgot, God created your culture. He created your gender. He ain't created you to be on the side, right? And so that is an idol you developed. Like, you developed this identity. And so I think if we were to admit that it's an idol, then things would change.

But until it's not, people don't admit that and that they actually are in little tribes, I find it really hard to be a thing to change. Yeah. Wow. I was, we could probably land here. I was in Ephesians too this morning, listened to a sermon. And the preacher was saying how easy it is for like Christians to be excited about Jesus

as it relates to what Jesus can change in us and how he can help us and how he can benefit us. But when it comes to Jesus and his body, it's like, ah, okay, yeah, you come in unity. ecclesia fellowship and I feel that in myself I remember I had to take an intensive class two years ago and the only option available

at the time was a class on what was it on? Ecclesiology. I'm not even going to lie to you. I was like, Lord, this is a requirement I don't want to take it. I want to take like systematic theology on like atonement of something or anthropology and all that type of stuff. And I was like why am I so uninterested

in your body. Like, why am I so bored with the idea of church and community? You understand what I'm saying? And so I guess I want us to close with a vision of the church, you know, so that we know what it is that God, who he died for, what he's after, what he intends so that we can like fight the cynicism because that's not helpful for us. You know what I'm saying? So go ahead.

Amen. I mean, I would just say the vision is an X. I think we need to like just go to acts, return to acts. And now in the middle, go from the very beginning before Pentecost. They were praying before Pentecost. It didn't just happen. We love X too. I said we love Acts too.

We love it speaking in tongues. But then it's like, oh, Acts 4. They were sharing everything. Whoa, right? Like just the development throughout Acts. They were persecuted. Okay. And so, and then also it was saying they were growing in the midst of all of that.

And yet people sometimes. sometimes page into the numbers, but when I hear that, I was just like, they were growing in unity. They were growing together. The body of Christ was developing. And I think if we were to see that, you know, Axes is by genre is known as like history, right? And sometimes people are like, oh, it's just history. And I'm like, well, history is always happening. We're living in history. So we're a part of that very history narrative that started in Acts. That actually started in Genesis. And so I think to invite us to consider like, what do you do? think about the church? What do you think about your role? And I position your role as in what

part of the body you feel that you are in the church. And does that matter to you? And if it doesn't, praying Holy Spirit, help this matter to me because it matters to God. And I want everything that matters to God for it to matter to me too. That's good. That's so good. Well, thank you, Presby. She got a book called False Peace. What's the thing called? Show notes. We'll have the link and stuff like that, follow or learn from or pray for all the stuff. Thank you, girl. Thank you, my sister. Thank you for having me, guys. Peace. With the Perrys is produced by the Perrys with support from Amanda Reed and Channing McBride. Video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley. Edited by the team at Tread

lively, artwork by Hobb. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.