With The Perrys - A Conversation About Anxiety with Blair Linne

Episode Date: December 1, 2025

Before they were podcasters, the Perrys did spoken-word poetry, and this week’s guest had a profound impact on them as one of the first “viral” Christian poets online.  Blair (Wingo) Linne joins Jackie and Preston to talk about her new book, Made to Tremble: How Anxiety Became the Best Thing That Ever Happened to My Faith. Blair discusses how past traumas – including the sudden death of her infant brother and a car accident that totaled their family vehicle – shaped her present anxiety and how that anxiety drove her even closer to the Lord. She explains how all of Scripture points to peace as a person – God is our peace, which means that peace is not a result of our circumstances. Blair’s encouragement is to find the Lord and trust that He’s going to be with you, even if He has you trembling for the rest of your life. Follow Blair: https://www.instagram.com/blairlinne_/ Check out her new book, Made to Tremble: How Anxiety Became the Best Thing That Ever Happened to My Faith: https://www.amazon.com/Made-Tremble-Anxiety-Became-Happened/dp/1430096365/ Scripture references: Philippians 4:4-7 2 Corinthians 4:7-10 Hebrews 12:14-24, 28-29   This Episode is Sponsored By: https://weekendtoremember.com — Get 50% off during FamilyLife’s Black Friday sale! https://brooklynbedding.com — Get 30% off sitewide when you use code PERRY at checkout. Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It's the saints in the ains. It's the saints and the a dance. It's a old classic. It's the saints in the end. You got to get on key. I am on key. You're not. Okay.

It's the saints in the aides. That was closer. Yeah. I don't want to. I wonder how many people have become saints. Ha! Yada may be watching this podcast. Like, they sung that song.

Huh. And they on the other side. They said the Holy Spirit added an S. Huh? I was an A-N-N-N-N-A-N-A-N-H. I was lost and now I'm fine. Because you've been singing that song for a good, what, five years? It's been a minute.

It's been a minute. I just kind of feel like, this is really random. I just kind of feel like when you buy nice hats. Because you just looked at the hat before you say something. Especially if it's my hometown that you should like buy their, buy for me. Because it's like a Chicago Bears hat and it's nice. So you would have preferred if I saw this hat and didn't buy it for myself. And be like, man, it's nice, but Preston was born there.

I bought you a Chicago hat. You did. But I liked that hat a lot. You can have this. Oh, thank you. Get on my name. I love you. I love you.

You can have it when I'm done. I wanted to say something spiritual, but I don't need to. Because Blair Lynn is here. Blair Lynn. Everybody clap it up from Blair, man. Thanks, guys. We met her when she is Blair Wingo. I was just about to say that.

So, like, and I love your husband, Shalene, one of the dopest Christian rappers. Shout out to Shalind, everybody clap. Shalind. Shalind. One of the dopest Christian rappers of all time, one of the dopest lyricists of all time. And it's no disrespect him because he knows how much I respect him. But every time I do- He's the reason I'm a rapper.

Have I ever told that story? I don't want to interrupt. You know, you haven't told that story in a long time, but that's Blair. He's the one who. You know that? I don't know. I don't know. I just know we was in Chicago.

I don't know what I did. I might did one song with a Humble Beasts or something. And Shai was there for like a conference. I think we was doing with Grip. And he was like, I think you need to pursue rapping. Wow. And I was like, huh?

And if Shai Lynn said, I just felt like the Lord had to be talking. So I was like, okay. Okay. Yeah. That's amazing. That man knows what he'd be talking about. He texts us one time like, I feel like the Lord.

I ain't going to say what he said, but he gave us a word. And we took, we took heed to that word, for sure, for sure, for sure. But we thank God for y'all. But I was going to say, you know, like we met you years ago. Yeah. We were babes in Christ. And what people don't know is, a lot of people don't know, if you could believe it or not, people who watch our podcast.

A lot of people don't know. Are you kidding? A lot of people don't know that. Like, they meet us and be like, you do the podcast. And they don't know that we had a whole life of spoken of our poetry. Yes. But you, Blair Wingo at the time, was part. probably one of our first inspirations in Christian poetry.

I mean, she was like the first viral Christian poet. Yeah. Yeah. And so like your poems, you know, I have words for you. Yes. And allow me to reintroduce to Christ. It was just very, very big inspirations for all the people coming up. And so I think you just, God really use you to pave away to be like, man, this is actually ministry.

Like I can actually glorify the Lord in my creative writing. and not just creative writing, but spoken word, performance poetry. And so God use you. You were kind of like the Moses. Oh, wow. You prepared away. I'm like, okay. So I just want to give you your flowers.

You know what I'm saying? You really inspired us a lot back in the day. I appreciate that. It's crazy, too, to think, because you used to stay on our couch and now I'm on your couch. That's so funny. Yeah, people don't know that. I live with you for a brief second before you, I think you left L.A. Yes.

But it was funny because Blair is so, what's the word? You're like, you know, the same demure. Like you're like Claire Huxington. It gives like, so when she rebukes, it's given in the same way, but it's still hurt. You know, for example, you was on, I was on the couch. I was probably 19. So I had been in Christ maybe six months. Wow.

And you were eating some cereal about, I don't know what you do. I do not remember this. You're not, first of all. It was so minor. And you were talking about people being late. And you were like, it wasn't, you weren't rebuking me, but it was convicting. You were like, a lot of times people are late to something. And they said, oh, traffic made me late when it was just you weren't a good steward

or your time. I was like, dang. Because in my mind, it was like she was, I hadn't heard up into that point people get at the motives of things. It was kind of like, no, you're not late because the traffic. You late because you ain't leave on time because you was on the phone. I was like, damn, but you said it while you was eating cereal. So like, yeah, you're just a good stewarder, you're tired.

I was like that. So I think, I don't know. It's just, it's a lot of history there. But Blair has written a second book. Yes. Tell us the title. You got to show that. You got to show the book.

Yes, I have it here. So it's made to tremble, how anxiety became the best thing that ever happened to. my faith. Wow. It just came out, really excited about it. I feel like a lot of people are dealing with anxiety. A lot of people are struggling with fear. So I'm just grateful to have this conversation with y'all. Do you think people are more anxious now or that they are more aware of their anxiety? That's a good question. That is a good question. Yeah, I think we certainly are having more conversations regarding anxiety, but it does feel unique in certain ways. Now, when we think through like different generations, I'm sure that there were moments, COVID, right?

You know, even we look now the tornado that's happening. We have job insecurity. We have even like food insecurity that's happening right now for a lot of people. It almost, it does feel like a lot of condensed things have happened in the last like six years. That's very unique. Political stuff. Yeah, the political stuff. That's right.

In the church. And so, so yeah. So I think it's a mix of, you know, these condensed moments, but then also we're having more conversations about it. So I feel like a lot of people were dealing with anxiety in the past. They didn't have a title or a label for it. And they weren't really allowed to feel it maybe like we are a little bit more now. Even before we get to, there was a scenario or a situation that happened in your life that kind of provoked this world. But how do I say what I'm trying to say?

You know how a plant can grow, but there were seeds before that plant grew. Yes. So before you started to experience panic attacks and before the accident, were there seeds of anxiety that led to this? Yes. Now, I didn't know that. So I will say, you know, I say I met anxiety in 2015 when I had a car accident. Our family had just moved to Philly to help plant a church.

We had three kids, three and under. And so a few months into that move, we went and we were going to visit family up in Michigan. And so I got behind the wheel to drive. I knew it was deer season. So I was watching to my right to make sure that, you know, all was good. Well, this deer came from the left. Totally caught me off guard. Had no time to respond.

And initially, we were just so thankful we were okay. Physically, we were well. Right? Yes. Because the car was totaled everything. And it was maybe a week later as I was driving that I felt like I can't breathe. I was just driving at night, similar circumstances like I can't breathe. And it spiraled me in a panic attack.

So later on, a couple years into my anxiety, I got counseling. Counseling for the first time in my life. And I thought, okay, we're going to deal with this little accident. This situation. And what that counselor did was started pulling into asking me questions. and I began journaling. And that was when I realized, oh, well, that wasn't the first panic attack that I had. I had no idea.

Because even when I had that panic attack in the car after the accident, I didn't know how to label it. Yeah. Well, I didn't know what it was. Yeah. I went to the ER and no one told me what it was. Yeah. They were just like, you're fine, you're good. So then I go back and I was like, oh.

So the first panic attack, I remember, so when I was 13, I lost my, my baby brother. It was a very difficult situation. My mom was in jail. My sister was 17. I was 13. We were caring for my infant brother. And I was the last one to lay him down. And he died of SIDS. So I get the call at recess. And it just, yeah. And I certainly blame myself. There was no one there to process that with me. And so I just went on and living my life. It wasn't until I was 25 years old that I had tried to have a conversation with my mom. She was like, this is too much. I can't. It was 20 years later after this accident that I was able to process that for the first time. Wow. And I realized like, oh, so when I would smell the scent of my brother, it was like it

kind of haunted me around the time of his death. And I would run out of my classroom. And I remember one of my classmates running behind me to comfort me. Like, and I couldn't breathe. You know, and I was hyperventilating. Like, that was an anxiety attack, but no one was there to comfort me or give me the language, but it was there. Or I think, oh, when I was three and I was biting my nails, we had just moved to Los Angeles. It was an unfamiliar territory, and I bit my nails down to the bed, you know, like those are signs of anxiety, you know. So I think that's the beauty of counselors, and maybe we'll talk about that more, to be able to help you dig through. And it's crazy, because I was skeptical going in

because I was like, girl, I'm not you all. Yeah, I just want to deal with this accident and move on. But you start unfolding all of the traumas and all of the suffering and all of the experiences that you've had and for me dealing with that for the first time.

Yeah. It was a lot. I can, I mean, everything that you're saying, I can relate to it so much. Intentionality in marriage is pivotal and is huge. Consistent communication. communication, always making sure you're on the same page, even over communicating, just so you know where your spouse's heart is, is very important in marriage. And so that's the reason why we're looking forward to this next weekend weekend to remember. A weekend to remember gives you space to reconnect and rediscover what God designed marriage to be, whether you just got married last week or you've been married since 1962. This is for you. We are about to go to a weekend to remember event in Philly. And actually, by the time that you see this episode, we would have been back. and I hope back and better.

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And it's because I finally listened to my wife and went to therapy. And one of the first things my therapist asked me, she was like, I want you to kind of relive some of your trauma. And I said, I know, I don't know trauma, huh? You know? That's so crazy. Okay. And so she's like, okay. She looked at me kind of weird.

And then we started to talk. And then as we started to talk, I was like, you know, my uncle, one man who raised me was murdered. And then I was like, I saw my first murder when I was in sixth grade. My neighbor killed his wife and then shot himself in front of me and my mom. What? And so I remember talking about how that experience changed my life. And I started to feel all of these emotions. But what I also did was what you just did.

Like I started to remember like the day I felt when I saw that murder. Like I remember when he killed his wife, everybody was in our yard like looking at the murder scene when the police and everybody was out there. And it started raining. And that was the first time I felt like my heart caught up with what I just saw. And I felt sadness. And so throughout my life, every time it rained, I would feel sad. And I didn't make the connection. Why?

Interesting. And my counselor, you know, kind of just show me that that's a trigger. Right. It's reminding you of that moment when you first saw a life leave. You wasn't supposed to see that because of sin. You saw that. And so I guess my question is, like, talk about the importance of therapy. Because I think a lot of times Christians can be afraid of therapy.

And what I've noticed is that therapy doesn't necessarily give me the language to, like, repent. it doesn't cause repentance but it gives me the language for repentance it gives me the language to go to God and say God I'm dealing with this I'm dealing with that and so talk about the thought of therapy and yellow it's so good and it's so important to take away the stigma behind therapy and counselors because I think sometimes we we have the language for discipleship and so we assume that all can be fixed with discipleship which discipleship is vital yes but we are all whole being, right? And God has graciously given us common grace as well. And I think within that category, there are things that can help us that are just very practical, like therapy, like counselors.

And so, and I think this is important too for leaders, like people who are in leadership, because there can be pastors who just assume I can handle, okay, I'm called to shepherd this congregation. and so everything you're dealing with, I am capable of handling it. Yes, God is given grace to be able to use the word to preach the truth to the congregation. But there are some people who need a little extra care, a little tenderness, who may do, I think, really well to get into therapy. And, you know, as a believer, yes, when I came to the Lord, I was able to process some of these things, you know, when I look back on my childhood and I see, yeah, being raised by a single mom, all the traumas that we experienced. But I think there was that survival mode, right?

So you don't necessarily get at the core of, you know, what's behind the trauma, which means that you can repeat the patterns and maybe sometimes ignore those patterns and just kind of say, oh, well, I'm good. I'm good because I've been disciples. I'm good because I love the Lord. I'm good because I read God's word. But that doesn't always deal with, oh, man, well, when I was 10, this event happened. Yeah.

And it's still impacting my life. And what ends up happening is, you know, we end up having another traumatic event or maybe those events build up. And then ultimately, it's like it can take no more. Yeah. You know, because anxiety, I believe, is the body speaking is what it is. It's the body telling us, I can't take anymore. Wow. You're human.

That's good. You said you weren't meant to bear all of this, but this is the result of being in a sinful world with sinful bodies, right? And learning, okay, how do I maximize these tools? Spiritual helps and also common grace. Yeah, because we're going to talk about panic attacks, and I really want to talk about it, because I started to suffer with panic attacks in our marriage.

And one of the things that, which I also put in the poem, you know, what am I to do with all this trauma trapped in my body? when grief comes out, it makes room for life to come in. And one thing that I realized is that I had a lot of trauma still trapped inside of my body that needed to come out. And there were certain triggers that triggered that trauma. And so because of that, when I had a family and I had people that I really, really love now, the thought of, I realized the thought of loss freaked me out.

So many people in my life was killed, my best friend, one of my best friend. One of my best friends was killed. My uncle was killed. My cousin was killed. And so I just started to deal with a panic attack like crazy. And so I would really love to talk about panic attacks because I still all the way don't understand. Yeah.

And how that trauma being trapped in your body causes it. I think that's important. I think before we get there, I am intrigued on the delayed anxiety of everything. Because you had an incident. And it seemed like, it's like, okay, cool, the car is total, we're fine, we go to the destination straight. It wasn't until some time after that.

Yes. What was happening? Why do you think that's a thing? Yeah. I believe I was in a state of shock, partially in shock. And then also, I didn't really do a whole lot of driving that week. And so we got back from that trip from Michigan and I drove down from Philly to D.C., So it's a three-hour trip and one day to visit a friend.

On the way back, I was driving on a very narrow road. So when the accident happened, it was on a turnpike. So I'm on this narrow road. And all of a sudden, I feel like I can't breathe. Like, I can't swallow. I was like, huh, that's weird. So I roll down the window and I try to get in some air. And then it just goes away.

And I keep driving, drive home, fine. A couple days later, I'm in a small group. and my friends are like, what happened with this accident? You know? And so I'm just sharing like, oh, well, this happened and this happened and the deer came and da-da-da-da-da. And so I'm leaving small group. And as I'm leaving small group, it's at night, I'm driving. And all of a sudden it's like, I can't swallow again.

I rode on the window to see, will the air, like, help it, you know, so it'll go away. Well, it doesn't go away. Now I feel like I can't breathe. Now my breathing is really shallow. It's like I'm hyperventilating. And then my heart starts pounding. So then I'm like, oh, am I having a heart attack? Like, what's going on?

And so I remember I called Shai. I was like, I don't know what's going on, but I need to get to the hospital. He said, get you some water. That's what she said in the book. Jackie. What did Shia say? He said, go, I'm going to have some water waiting for you. I said water.

I love Shire. I said I can't breathe. Exactly. I'm dying. I don't need the water. And so. He said she parched. Right.

So I hung up the phone and I was like, water. Hold up. No, I need a doctor, you know. I get home and it's hilarious because he had the little water waiting for me, my precious husband. But, you know, it's hard to understand what's going on. I was like, yeah, we got to go to the ER. And what was hilarious is we went to the ER and they gave me some water and a pill, but some water. And he was like, listen, we got water at home.

It don't cost $3,500. dollars. But yeah, so that feeling of a panic attack is unlike anything I've ever felt before. And anyone who's experienced it, you know it feels like you're dying. And what I believe is the reason that it was delayed as well was because, you know, I was talking about it, bringing it back up. It was the same circumstances like the accident. So every time I would get on a turnpike, every time I'm driving at night, I would have those similar. feelings. And then it just spiraled. And so then it was like, I can't even really drive. I remember debating, should I drive? Because I can drive for about five minutes before I start hyperventilating. And I remember thinking, it would be easier for me not to drive. But then I had to wrestle with that, because I was like, do I never want to drive again? I felt like it really was a crossroads moment.

And I just kept pushing through. I'm going to drive. Even if it's five minutes, I'm going to drive. And And then it was like 10 minutes. And then it was 30 minutes I could drive for. And then it was like I could drive an hour, but no more for like two years. And then it was like I can drive to D.C. as long as somebody's in the car. Until now, by God's grace, I can drive. You know, praise the Lord. Drove myself here. But it was a process. You know, it was a process. And that anxiety just spiraled into every area of my life. Yeah. Things I was never afraid of before. I started dealing with fear. Because, correct me if I'm wrong, when panic attacks or extreme anxiety comes, are you actually thinking about the thing you're afraid of? That's a good question. No.

No, not for me. Yeah, I wasn't thinking about deer. That's what I'm saying. It's the physiological symptoms. That's why I say it's the body speaking. Because it's not rational. There were moments where I would like be dreaming about deer. Yeah.

And I wake up out of my sleep in a panic attack. Yeah. Yeah. A couple of episodes ago, we were talking about how our mattress is a little too soft for you, but it's kind of just perfect for me. And it's kind of hard for, you know, people to find that perfect mattress, even in marriage or even when you're single. Brooklyn Bedding handcrafts every mattress in their Arizona factory. There ain't no middlemen, no gimmicks, just top-tier quality.

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So that is Brooklyn Betting.com. code Perry for 30% off site wide. You can support the show by letting them know that we sent you after you check out. Again, that's Brooklyn Bedding.com promo code Perry. Because one of the things that my counselor showed me was, you know, first murder I saw sixth grade, and then my uncle was murdered the year after that. Then I saw my second murder right in front of me. And then my friend died when my mom was trying to revive him, he got shot in the back, right?

And so one of the things when I left high school, I just became like this floater. And I would go the year, maybe a year and a half when I'd see my mom. I didn't have to be around family. I loved my family. But one of the things that my counselor showed me is that I kind of, I was just okay with not being around people because I didn't have to think about people leaving if I wasn't around them. And so what happened was when I got married and I got a wife and a kid. And my kid, when my first child, I was consistently surrounded around people that I loved.

So the fear of loss, I had to think I thought about consistently. And that's when I started to realize how jacked up I was. And so I remember the first time I had my panic attack. We were sitting on the couch. And I was not at that moment I wasn't thinking about, you know, but I just jumped up and I felt like I was dying. I couldn't breathe. My heart was beating or whatever. And I thought I was dying.

You ran down the hall. And I opened the door and I was like, I got to go to the hospital. My mind literally just told me survival mode. Let's go to the hospital. They told me you had a panic attack. And I was like, whoa. And so what I realized later on was, even though I wasn't thinking about it at that moment, I was meditating on that the whole week.

Right. That was on my mind the whole week of like, what if my daughter dies? What if Jackie dies? Because I've never really dealt with all the death that was in my life. It was kind of like my body. keeping the score of that death, that trauma. I think what's fascinating but also affirming is how we're whole beings. Yeah.

You know, we're mind, body and soul. And so how, like, what you were thinking about in your mind throughout the week is now being made manifest in your body. Yeah. It's like the Lord is, like, surfacing. Interconnected. Like, it's deep. It is.

It is. It is. It is. It is. It is. It is. And it's interesting because even the, I think, what I do in the book is, I think, what I do in the book is I talk about three different types of fear from a Puritan John Flaville. He talks about

natural fear. He talks about sinful fear and religious fear. And I thought it was so helpful, this concept of natural fear, right, that we by nature, made in the image of God, God has put in us this desire to survive, right? So I think initially that's what we're trying to do. When my body responds and says, get off the turnpike. Get out of this car. Because there's danger. There was danger, right? Someone died, right? So there's that concern, which is a good thing, right?

If somebody comes in and tries to harm your kids, right? Or tries to harm your wife, right? You are going to defend. There's going to be a bunch of adrenaline, right, that rises through your body in order to protect who you love, right? Or to protect yourself in that moment. Those are not bad things, the fight or flight, right? Or fawn or freeze.

Those are not bad things. It's, it's, though, because it's not, it doesn't mean that we have sinned because we feel that within our body. Yeah. Right. That's natural. What happens is when we began to desire control. Wow. Right.

So that then shifts that good thing, which I would say is the result of the fall. Yes. Right. So even though it may not be sin, it came from sin, right? It's the fruit of sin, if we're honest. Yeah. But yet what happens is then it morphs into now I want control because I feel unsafe, right? And so now control looks like, because I experience similar things.

Covering yourself in the garden. Yeah. So now I'm God. I'm going to be God in my life. I'm going to be God in my family's life. I remember when I had my first child who was my son, I remember when he was a baby and I was questioning God, is he going to live past two months? Wow.

Because my baby brother died. And I blame myself for that for so many years. You know, like that still was there with me. But the truth is, I'm not God. Yeah. But anxiety, sinful anxiety makes you believe, well, we're on the throne. If I think about this enough, right, then somehow I'm going to change this situation. I'm going to fix this situation.

And so, yeah, which then goes into the godly fear, you know. Because I think I... This is so fascinating. Yeah, because I think, I think... because of the fall, we all live in a jacked a world. And so nobody will escape trauma, right? Because we live in a fallen world, sickness, disease, murder, you know, all the stuff, right? But I do think that there is a particular type of trauma that comes with sudden loss or sudden grief.

Like for me, like I couldn't prepare my uncle, my hero, getting shot in the head through cocking the morning. I couldn't prepare for that. You couldn't prepare a deer hitting your car or your brother dying and you getting that. call, that's a sudden call. So it's kind of different than if your mom has cancer and you have six months to kind of like accept the fact that she's leaving. And so one of the things that I realized in my grieving process is that I experience a lot of sudden just uncontrollable loss. Uncontrollable loss. Like my cousin here, me and my Jackie get off the plane from Toronto, get a text, your cousin Wayne was just killed. I'm like, you know what I'm saying? And so like all

of this, you know what I'm saying? So talk about how like that sudden trauma. Yeah. Kind of shows up in our life, um, in ways that we might not even recognize or can kind of stay with us because we didn't have time even to, to process. Yeah, that's right. I mean, I, and I have not experienced what you've experienced. And I haven't experienced what you experienced. Yeah. And, and, but I want to say, I'm sorry, brother, for your loss. Because these are hard things. These are real things that we experience. in this fallen world. I think it is true. Oftentimes, it's not only the trauma and then sometimes the panic or the anxiety that we're dealing with as a result, but then also we got PTSD.

Like there are layers to this thing. And so just like a person who's dealing with PTSD, which often it's a sudden one moment, right, which kind of changes their mind changes their situation. We wouldn't say, you're in sin, you know? You went to a sudden. war, right? And you've experienced all of these people who've died or these explosions. And so now you hear a noise and you're jerking, right? And so, but I think sometimes in the church, we are not, we are not tender. Maybe because we haven't experienced loss that sudden, we don't know what it's like to comfort someone else who's experienced it. But God is tender. God is tender, whether it's a drawn-out loss or a sudden loss.

Our God is tender. He's able to be with us in the midst of it. And I think it's important to not shame an individual or isolate an individual or condemn an individual because of the pain that they've experienced. That's what happened with Joe. Yeah. Right? Sudden loss. Yeah. You know, dealing with all of this loss and friends who initially, We're very quiet for seven days and seven nights. Some of the best things. You must have did something. You made God, man.

Right, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, yeah, so God is tender with us. That's good. That's really good. What? How did your anxiety lead you towards God? Because you're experiencing fear, physiological stuff.

You like, should I drive five minutes, ten minutes? That could have just become a norm. Yeah. How did that lead you into like considering the Lord in all your ways? Yeah, you know what I'm saying? That's a good question. Yeah, it was a process because initially I was condemning myself. I did feel a lot of shame.

I didn't believe that Christians could be anxious. Okay. Because of how I was taught. And so I remember someone coming up to me who experienced panic attacks. And they were telling me about it years ago. And I remember telling them, oh, just trust the Lord. just read some more scripture. You're going to be good. You're going to be all right, girl. You're going to be a guy.

Yeah, cast some cares. You know what I mean? And then you go through it and you're like, whoa, this is different. This is altogether different. I went from even though I had all those traumas in life, but I still was like on the stage since I was nine, you know, acting, doing all these things, very independent and capable, having a high capacity, if you will. And so going from that to everything being stripped away. because, as I said, I was anxious all day every day. So, and there were other symptoms, too.

So I remember being in bed for like three weeks. Like, I couldn't do anything. And that's when I really wrestle with God. Because when you have one panic attack, it's like, okay, this is difficult. But when you have five or ten, and you're like, oh, man, we're a year in. Oh, we're two years in. I remember shy and I looking at each other like, is this the way it's always going to be?

You know? And I thought maybe this is the way it will always be. And one of the things I decided was, you know, if this is my lot, I'm still going to praise you in the midst of it. I'm going to cling to you in the midst of it. And what I had to learn was actually to read a lot of scriptures in context. So there were a lot of passages that we are all familiar with, like be anxious for nothing. You know, which is proverb, not proverbs, it's Philippians 4, be anxious for nothing.

And so I remember reading that. Well, initially, before reading that, that would be the text I would use to kind of beat myself up. And I'm anxious for everything. I'm anxious for everything. Every moment. Right? Or fear not, you know, which is the most common command in the text. But it's interesting when you read it in context because Philippians 4, verse 4 says,

rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again, rejoice. Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. Verse six, do not be anxious about anything, but in everything. So he's contrasting, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your request to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ. this text is so important. So one of the things I had to realize was I don't know how to cast my cares. I had heard that. But in practice, I didn't know exactly what that meant.

For me, that began to look like, okay, Lord, I'm feeling anxious. I know that you're in control. I don't have the resources needed in order to handle any of this that I'm concerned about. But I know that you do. And so I am going to appeal to you in my anxiety. So, Lord, I feel like a panic attack is coming on. I know that you're in control of me. You're able to help me.

You're able to deal with me gently. And so I'm going to cast these cares over to you in prayer and petition. And then it says, with Thanksgiving. That part. Which was really important. Because what happens is anxiety, it causes you to forget. That's good. Thanksgiving helps you remember.

Yeah. It helps you remember who your God is. It helps you remember how he's brought you through. Yeah. In the midst of your difficulty. That's good. And then it says with Thanksgiving, present your request to God and the peace of God. What's interesting about that word anxious, it actually means to be divided, to be pulled apart in different directions.

But then he says, and the peace of God, that word for peace means to tie together all the parts. Come on somebody. Come on, Lord. So what God is saying, and the reason I believe that there's so many commands about do not fear, which we take, we forget, because I am with you, we forget the context of those passages. It's because God knew that there would be a lot of things that are scary in this world. Wow. Yeah. And the point is, I'm going to be with you, that you can ask me for what you need, right?

That's really good. So, yeah, and the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your heart and your mind in Christ. Would you say, I have my own answer. Would you say that peace comes immediately? Hmm. You know what I would say? Peace is a person. Peace is a person.

Because it's not about the circumstances. You might be trembling. You might be afraid, but who are you holding on to in the midst of it? Who's with you in the midst of it? That's good. That, to me, is what made all the difference in my anxiety. Because the reality is when I drive, there might be another deer. Peace can't look circumstantial.

Because there might be another deer. There may be something worse in my life. So what am I going to do? It has to be who's with me. that even if another deer comes, I serve the God who's over the deer. I serve the God who's over cancer. I serve the God who can provide your practical needs, right?

Who can give you food. Come on, he's our provider. And so realizing who is with us, and that's the trembling. That's the awe. That's the fear of the Lord that is also important for us as believers. That's the picture we see when the storm comes, you know?

like that circumstance God didn't make that circumstance changed the storm was still there but God is like if I'm sleeping on this boat y'all should be resting too that's right because that's what I was going to say is if you listen to what she's saying you do hear

a theology of God in it right you know what I'm saying like there's language and competence there's a literacy to him like he is good he is great he is sovereign he is with me he is this he is that he is wise. And it's like, I think sometimes we are chasing after the feeling of peace and discontent

with the presence of God because we don't know God, right? And so I think that is the beauty of certain circumstances that produce certain fears and emotions is that it's driving us into a dependence that we would not have otherwise. Does that make sense? You're looking at the fly behind my head? No, I was looking at your head because I really like it, but I was listening to you at the same time. No, it's really, really, really good, which is what you're saying. Because on the boat, they accused him and said, do you not care?

Yeah. Which is an accusation about his ability to have compassion. That's a theology of God problem. And so I've seen, like, if I am struggling with anxiety, I need to ask the question of who do you believe

that I am? That's right. Yeah. Absolutely. Because because I think what we're all longing for security and safety, right? Yes. And they didn't feel safe.

but they should have known my safety as a person, not this circumstance. That's right. Like, that is my safe. You are my safety. That's right. And so if you're here, I'm safe. Even if it doesn't look safe, I am safe because you're here. And it was scary, Blair.

It was scary. It was scary. We're about to die. Yes. That's right. And we got to be, like, I was talking to my, I got a new therapist. Shout out to her. And I was telling her, I was like, I'm afraid of.

so many things that are literally scary. But then you got text in Peter where he's like, don't fear what is fearful. Yeah. I know it's scary. Yeah. Don't fear it. That's right.

You talk about, I'm going to turn to it. I'm going to read it. And you just tell us, you just tell us all the things. Because this, if I could get this tattooed on my cheek, the one on my face. I promise I would. Oh, my gosh. I promise I would. This is, this has been.

I ain't going to say it's a life verse, but it's becoming that for me. Second Corinthians 4, where he says, but we have this treasure, verse 7, in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us. We are afflicted in every way but not crushed, perplexed but not driven to despair, persecuted but not forsaken, struck down, but not destroyed, always carrying in the body of the death of Jesus so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our bodies. You have this text in this book. Yes.

Talk about it. Yes. And it gets to the heart of why I can say anxiety became the best thing that ever happened to my faith is because anxiety, what it does is it helps you see you're human. You're human. Dependency. You're human. You don't have what you need in and of yourself, but there is an all-serpassing power

that is from God. and it's not from us, right? And so anything that reveals your humanity and then exposes or reveals God's divinity, which allows you to cling to him even much more than you would had you not experience the trauma, the anxiety, the accident, you have to say, okay, you're working good. Even if I can, I may not say anxiety is good.

Yes. But what you're doing in the midst of it is good. Yeah. All beings working together for together. They're working together for good. And yeah, yeah, so our weakness exposes God's strength. Wow. Our weakness helps us to be more dependent because anyone who would try to put confidence in

their self when they're terrified, you know, like it doesn't even make sense. It's not reasonable. Yeah. Almost every patriarch, all of the prophets were scared. when you look Abraham, Sarah, you know, Isaac, Jacob, Elijah.

There's a whole list. The disciples, they were scared. It's not that we will be scared and that's the worst thing. It's what will we do when we are afraid.

Wow. And that's how it can become the best thing. Yeah. That's good. Yeah. Yeah, I think about the disciples often. And I just did

a Patreon with my men's group a couple of days ago and we was just walking through the life of their disciples and we were just talking about their process in John 21 when Jesus revealed himself after the resurrection I think the third time to them they were they were just locked themselves in the house because they were afraid I mean can you imagine the anxiety that they had their leader and that savior was just murdered and they were his closest followers, his closest disciples. And so they were like more than likely next. I mean, they ended up, but the dependency when Jesus came back and revealed himself to them,

when they depended on the Lord is how we got scripture. That's right. It's when they start, like when they were the most fruitful is when they gave their anxieties and their fears back to God and God was able to use them. And so he didn't take away the threat of death. Right. But he did produce much work in us. And so I'll a lot of times I'm thinking like what is God trying to produce in me in the midst of all of this anxiety? Like he wants to get fruit out of this. That's right. And so I guess my question for you is in the same way the disciples, God got a lot of fruit out of them in ministry. Like what did God produce out of you when it came to your trauma? And how did he use your trauma? Not to just write

this book, but to impact your home, your children, your marriage. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And some of that we may not know the fullness of the fruit. I think God kind of preserves or keeps us from seeing all the fruit, right? Because then we might boast in ourselves. That's good. But one of the things that I will see, I have seen, one of the things I have seen was actually right around the time of COVID. So the Lord was just bringing me out of this season of feeling anxious all day, every day. And then I had friends and those that I went to church with who in the thick of COVID,

were dealing with fear for them for the first time, you know, and unsure of how do I cope? What do I do? And many of them came and they said, you know, I know that you had this season. Can you offer help? So one of the things that I see is the Lord allowing me to comfort others with the same comfort that he's shown me. Yeah. You know. But yeah, we don't always know.

But I'm like, even, Lord, if you could use all of the difficulties that I've experienced, experience in my life in order that you would get glory in order that maybe someone would even see like you could experience hardship and still endure by God's grace. Because life isn't always easy. That's beautiful. And it's hard to grieve loss and trauma and to really rethink your childhood from the lens of truth. Because sometimes we're in survival mode, right? And so we kind of wear these rose-colored glasses, but to be able to look back and say, oh, I don't want to call good evil or evil good. Let me see this rightly. And you see it rightly. You grieve because it's hard. But you trust, Lord, you're working something in me because you're purifying my faith. And this is

for the church, right? That the church, the saints would be built up and edified. One thing that we do see is like after they submitted their anxiety, their fears, they gave us letters. And this book is your version. It's not authoritative. It's not scripture. Right. Yeah, it's not. But it's still, it's still produced by a lot of the things that the Lord allow you to go through, which is also beautiful. I'm thinking of myself when I was in, before I became a believer, and how I didn't know at the time that I was carrying a of anxiety often that I, that was the reason why I smoked so much weed. Because I just wanted peace in my mind and my heart. And the anxiety legitimately was conviction of conscience. I started to smoke more weed the more convicted I got. And so there was,

it wasn't no fear of the Lord, but there was a fear of judgment. And so I guess what I'm thinking of are people who have not yet got to the point what they have the default to trust. God with their cares or the default to trust God with their anxieties, but they do have a lot of coping mechanisms and vices that are like a temporary peace. Right. Speak into that. Yeah. Well, it's not true peace.

It's not sustaining peace. It's interesting because even as I talk about some common grace, which I'm not saying marijuana fits into that category. But I think there are certain things that I think the Lord has given breathing techniques and there are things that we can do. But ultimately, as I said, peace is a person, right? We serve the prince of peace. So any of those things that you do, it's only temporary.

And the thing is, we still are called to submit to the King of Kings. And every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. And so it's not enough just to get rid of the anxiety. That's the thing. I think for so many people, it's like, I just want this out of my life. because it's chaotic or, and even as Christians, I think sometimes we can fight anxiety with anxiety. Ooh, yeah. Right?

So I just need to, you know, take these thoughts captive, but it's like a, you know, a game of fruit and did I take the thoughts captive good enough? I don't know if I didn't. Yeah, you know, and then that kind of becomes a form of OCD. There's a friend of mine who talks about religious OCD or scrupulosity, you know, praying a hundred times, you know. So there's, there can be anxiety in that. That's not.

That's not it. It's ultimately about a person. The scripture is pointing us to a person. And that's where genuine peace resides. So it's not just getting rid of the anxiety. That's right. It's finding the Lord and trusting that he's going to be with you, even if he has you trembling the rest of your life. That's good.

That's so good. I felt that. I got the idea, too. Let me say something real quick. I think what's significant about that is I wish I could find it so we could put it in show notes. But there's this Tim Keller sermon I listened to when we was on tour, what was that, a year ago. And it's basically like sometimes I think we have to come to the point where if the worst thing happens, it won't break you. And by break you, I don't mean it won't weaken you.

By break you, I don't mean it won't humble you, won't hurt you, won't grieve you. But if it happens, he's with you in it. And I think that's the thing. I know for me, I think I am often, I don't want to feel bad. feelings. I don't, if my children die, I don't want the grief that comes with the death. Yes. So I'm anxious because I'm afraid of what that will do to me, but that is where we share in his sufferings. Yes. Right. And so it's like sometimes I think the worst thing cannot be, the worst thing that can happen only becomes the worst thing that can happen if God leaves.

Right. If he abandons you, that's right. It is in fact the worst thing that happens. But if he is with you, it is not the worst thing that can happen. That's right. Does it make so important? Absolutely. And that's so important because so many people who are believers who deal with anxiety, they feel like God is not with them. Because I'm anxious, because what we've done is we've pitted sinful fear against religious fear.

Wow. Explain that. Yeah. So we say, if you are struggling with worry or sinful worry, then you must not be fearing God. And that's not always the case. So you could be, because then that's why. open up this category of also natural fear, right? So you might be dealing with these physiological symptoms, but you're inserting that in the text. So when you see, when you see be anxious for nothing,

you thinking, oh, well, that's my panic attack. Paul wasn't talking about your panic attack. He wasn't talking about that. And so when you believe that there's only sinful fear and religious fear, then you condemn yourself. You're left only to condemn yourself because you're like, I'm not fearing God. But for the believer, nothing will separate you from the love of God. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ. We have to hold on to the truth about what God says about us because of his son. And so because of what Christ has accomplished on the cross, because of what he accomplished

through the resurrection, we're trusting in him. We're now unified in him. That's the gospel. That's great. And so even though we're dealing with suffering here, like you said, we're suffering now with Christ. It's a different thing. And also, I think it's important for believers to not be afraid of death. We're not supposed to be afraid of death. Now, if I'm honest, and I was honest, of course, in the book, like, I remember during that season, I was afraid to die. And I was trying to reconcile that with my faith. Why am I afraid to die when the scripture says to die? gain, you know, and having to wrestle with God. And ultimately, it was me landing on who's with me.

If the worst thing happens in my life, I'm not going to be alone. Wow. If whatever my greatest fear is, cancer, right? My husband dies. My children die. I die. God is going to be with me. And that makes all the difference. That makes all the difference. And so we have to make sure that we remember who's there. Remember our God is there. And then we have a community through the body of Christ that's there as well. Yeah.

Yeah. That's right. Man, he just said a lot. Ooh. Well, you felt that in your jazz. Yeah. I mean, I experienced a lot of death, you know. And so, like, that's just a, I've been a consistent wrestle for me.

And it's often been frustrating, you know, saying we're trying to communicate that to other people who haven't experienced death. It's like, I don't think you actually understand it. I don't understand it half of the time. And so, yeah, that was challenging and encouraging. Because it's one thing to have loss. It's another thing to have loss that's not returning. Yes. You know, to lose people that don't come back.

Yeah, for sure. It's a different thing. My question is, does scriptures talk about anxiety a lot? Yeah, they do. I mean, like Luke talks about it. Matthew talks about not being anxious for nothing. And First Timothy talks about not being anxious. You guys know your words, sir.

It's just a lot of talk about anxiety. But it's often paired with what we should focus on. Like one of the scriptures says, but meditate on these things, whatever's good, whatever's lovely, what is worthy of praise. But sometimes when you're anxious and when you're going through panic attacks, it's hard.

Like it feels impossible for your mind to think about good things. Yeah, because you start thinking, okay, what is true? God is good, but my test. taxes. Whatever is worthy of praise. Lord, you are so worried. It's so, I got to talk, I think I take the dog out. Like it's like your mind just, it's so, it is, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, we can't, it's, we can, it's, we can actually, right, fear. Absolutely. One of, what, it's on good things in the midst of your life here. Absolutely.

One of the things I think we need to learn to do is rest. And I think we just struggle with that. Our society struggles with that. I think we are in an anxious age. So everybody's busy. Everybody's hustling. Everybody got five businesses, you know? And so it's hard to take those moments of to retreat.

We almost feel uncomfortable when it's time to rest. Even at night, got our phone, you know, like, It's just it's hard to rest. And so that is important. One of the things I did because I write in poetry and prose. And I use poetry and hymns throughout the book as like a say la to say, let's stop. Why? Because we're human.

Because we can't do it all. We were never meant to bear at all. And so I think that is really important. And then also we need to be thinking about true things. have so much information these days, so many opinions, but how much time, quality time do we spend actually meditating upon what is true? Yeah. And truth, you know, there's a reason, a rationalization when it comes to truth, but also a revelation, right? And so true things, we want to hold fast to that which is true, but also we want to know that God reveals the truth. As I said, truth is a person,

capital T in Jesus. Wisdom from God is Jesus. So when the scripture talks about the beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord, that means that God has to be prioritized as first in our life. And we have to fight for that. Yeah. That God be on the throne. And we don't believe that I'm on the throne or even someone else is on the throne.

Because I think that fear of man is when we place someone else on the throne, their truth becomes the capital T truth. and God's truth is, you know, is tucked away somewhere. What does it look like to hold God's word and value it, right? As greater than gold, greater than treasure, sweeter than honey, and say, God, I'm going to spend time meditating. Even if it's at night. So one of the things I do, I'll take one verse and at night just continue to rehearse that verse, repeat that verse again and again until I fall asleep. That's just a practical way.

or listening to sermons throughout the day. I'm doing dishes. I'm, you know, running errands. You can listen to truth being communicated. Listen to songs and hymns and spiritual songs being communicated throughout the day. And so setting your life up, organizing your life in such a way that truth is around you. That's great. Yeah.

Yeah, that's an convicting because I think we just don't give ourselves time to meditate on the things that's good. Yeah. That made me think about that. verse differently. Because as I started to look at it, I was like, because one thing Americans, and it might just be human, is we are addicted to efficiency. And so we think, think on these things, and we think I'm going to think on it right now and it should produce this fruit right now. Yeah. Versus of just saturating your mind throughout your day so that you can't help but think on these things.

That's right. Because it's transformative. You're creating a culture. It's supposed to change you over time. A lot of times we want to microwave instead of bake, you know, like how does scriptures want to transform us from the inside out. And I want to honor something you said that I think we don't talk about enough in like Christian conversations is kind of natural means of peace.

Yeah. And so during the summertime, I realized spring and summer, you know, I realized, I realized I need to get out of the house. It's very simple. So I started to get up every morning, get the kids together, get their breakfast, da-da-da, and sit on the porch because I realized exposure to the sun

helped me to have a little more peace. It was something about being in the house all day that made me more anxious, made me more prone to the break. I was like, oh, my guy. I said, I just need to go outside. That's right. You know, some of us just need to walk.

Yeah. It's real. It's true. That's right. And also just, I think people, this might seem small, but I think it's actually way bigger than what we think. Like, meditating on God's nature and sitting amongst God's creation will probably bring more peace.

Absolutely. You know, because it's like, you know, during a pandemic, a person who I cannot stay in the house. She knows that. And I had COVID. And I literally thought. And I was trapped in that We put him in the office

Okay And I said I said I'm starting to be depressed I'm starting to think about all the things that happened wrong in my life I want to see my kids I want to like

be in the bed with my wife and I want to grab her and just hold her and all the stuff Uh huh Is you going in? Move on. Move on.

I just felt lonely I just felt lonely and no and Jackie was like go fishing. I was like, you can't affect them. I was like, you go off on them all day alone. I was like, I can go to the lake.

And I'm telling you, I experienced the joy of the Lord in the way. I mean, I was like, this is, this is so genius. Thank you for telling me to go to the lake. And that's when I started to realize, no, God actually, like, created the world beautiful. He literally created water and trees and the birds to sing to us. Like, like, take advantage of all the things that God created. Because I used to talk about, shout out to all the white people that have no problem laying in grass.

I used to look at Charlotte like, what are y'all doing? Now I covered it. And I get them laying in the guy in the Lord's grass. Because growing up in the hood, we'd be like, we go outside. We're trying to go to the store. We play. But when people be like, you need to go out and touch grass, you sure do. That's a means of grace.

Right. It is. Yeah, we didn't have grass in the hood. I know y'all did not in LA. Y'all had concrete. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, I mean, it seems small, but it's actually, God has given us so much around us to give us people.

That's right. I think in closing, I would love for you, because we have so many different kinds of listeners. We got students. We got mothers, fathers, we got pastors. We have new believers, older believers. I just want you to exhort the person who even as they listen are anxious. Yeah. There's a passage that I want to read from Hebrews. I'll start chapter 12 and I will start at verse 18. Well, I'll start at 14. It says, make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy. Without holiness, no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. See that no one is sexually immoral or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.

Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected. He could bring about no change of mind, though he sought the blessing with tears. You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire, to darkness, gloom and storm, to a trumpet blast, or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further words, be spoken to them because they could not bear what was commanded. If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned. The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, I am trembling with fear. But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, to the city of the living God,

you have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly to the church of the firstborn whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men. men to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. And I'm going to skip down to verse 28. It says, therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful.

And so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, for our God is a consuming fire. I really want to leave just reflecting upon God and the fact that he is the one who is worthy of our all. He's worthy of our reverence. He's worthy of all praise. He's worthy of all glory. He's worthy of our lives. And, you know, this passage is contrasting those, and there may be some who are listening who do not have a relationship with God yet. And it talks about the fear of being in God's presence because of his wrath. But yet it also gives so much comfort because of what Jesus Christ has done

that we have one whose blood speaks a better word than able. And so God, he has allowed us to have a kingdom that cannot be shaken. And I just love that, that imperishable kingdom that will never be shaken. And the king in that kingdom is a God who never trembles, who's not anxious. right who's and that's why i say is worthy of our devotion um Isaiah six talks about the train of

his robe fill the temple right this is the God right who is holy holy holy who deserves our life and so my encouragement to you right where you are is to know that God can be with you right there if you do not know him you can call out to him today so that you can have a relationship with him. And if you do know him, know that all of your fears, all of your cares, all of your concerns, you know, he's concerned with you, that he loves you. It's beautiful when you think of Jesus who came to earth, took on flesh. And right in the garden of the Gephamini, it talks about him sweating blood. And he did that for us. He sweated blood, right? A physiological response, knowing I'm going to bear the wrath of God for y'all.

Wow. Because I love you so much. And so consider your God. Consider God, right? The potter, the creator, the one who is above all else. And submit to him, right? Be drawn near to him. And so that is my encouragement to everyone.

Yeah. We were made to tremble before him. That's good. That's so good. Do you mind praying? Yeah, for sure. Let's pray. Oh, man. Dear Lord, I thank you, Father, for this topic, this conversation. I knew this conversation was important, but having this conversation,

it's just kind of put it in words how important it is because we live in a fallen, broken world. There's so much to worry about, it seems. But what we've consistently said, what Blair have consistently said, is that peace is a person, And so God, would you help us, not just us, but the listener, to focus on the person, that we would gaze on the beauty of Christ and to know that we serve a great high priest who was able to sympathize without weakness because he became man like us, but because he was sinless, unlike us. We have a help, and we can run to the throne of grace for help. And so, God, I just pray for the listener.

I pray God that they would not run to the bottle or sex or marijuana or even people. I pray God that they will run to you, that they will run to your throne. I pray God at that throne, you will meet them there and you will commune and dying with them there. I pray, Father, for the unbeliever listening to this who's carrying so many burdens and weights. I pray God that you would just show them that your burdens are light. your yoke is easy. And so God, I just thank you, God, for your love and your care for us. And I just pray, God, that we would continue to look on the person of Jesus Christ for our peace and comfort. We love you. We thank you. We believe you in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. Thank you,

Blair. Thank you guys. Bye, y'all. Peace. With the Perrys is produced by the Perrys with support from Amanda Reed and Channing McBride, video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley, edited by the team at Tread Lively, artwork by hop and music by swoop. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.