With The Perrys - A Random Conversation About Church

Episode Date: August 14, 2023

Many of us got comfortable not going to church through the pandemic and we’re slowly finding our way back. The Bible tells us we need other Christians and we’re missing something if we don’t gather together to hear God’s Word. But our relationship to church can still be complicated. Jackie and Preston’s conversation today covers topics like worship style preferences, doctrinally sound preaching and discipleship, the pressure that local pastors face because of social media, and the topic of church hurt.     Take our brief listener survey.  Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It's the Saints and the Ains. It's the Saints and the Ains. You used to not like me singing that song. Now you're doing like the Crip Walk dance to it. You must like it now. No, no. I just realized I'm not going to change it. So just go with it.

It's the Saints and the Ain't. Because you keep singing it. It's the Saints and the Ains. No. I still don't like it. It's like the Jefficence or something. You know what I'm saying? I've been thinking about like

How strange could I open this podcast up? But I have nothing like Whitney Houston. Oh, you watched the Whitney Houston movie on the plane. What did you think about it? I told you it's like a really good lifetime movie. It was good. Was it interesting? It was a step above lifetime for me.

Yeah. Because she played a really good crackhead. You wouldn't know because you were raised around that. Yeah. She was like, you know, she wasn't even crackhead. She was like a crackhead towards the end. So how do crack a... Stop playing with me, Bobby.

The way she rubbed on the nose. Other than that, you like the movie. It was a good movie. I liked it. And she could sing really well. Okay. So I've been listening to this podcast. Did I talk about Scamanda on the podcast yet?

Did I talk about Scamanda? Okay. There's this part. Remember Scamanda? Yeah, we listened to it in one of them cities. This podcast? A podcast series named Scamanda, okay? I watched every, or listened to every single episode.

It was the number one podcast of all podcasts. I don't know if it will be when this airs. But it's basically about this girl named Amanda Riley, who was telling all these people that she had cancer. And she was raising all this money. She raised a lot of money. For having cancer, plot twists, she ain't got cancer. She never had cancer.

I'm going to have to, if you, if you ain't listed I'm going to just tell some of the secrets, if not just fast forward 15 seconds. What through me is that she was so specific and she had all these antics that she would go through about her having cancer. First of all, there's this one scene

they talk about that made me, I was envision it in my mind. I was like, this girl is not right. Yeah, she was kind of like... She went to church. She was one of the church leaders, okay? You know, the church was giving her all kinds of money because we tried to be generous like Jesus.

And so she's sitting in the pew, and the girl that's on the interview, she's saying, I heard Amanda turn to her best friend and say, I feel lightheaded. I'm going to go to the bathroom. So Amanda gets up, and this is while the pastor is preaching,

she walks down the aisle, falls out on the ground and pees on herself. Now, mind you. No, I didn't listen. Mind you, I didn't hit that part. If she had cancer, that's a moment for like, oh, my goodness, like we need to give her some help. But the fact she don't have cancer,

that means she thought in her mind, I'm going to hold my pee for the perfect performance in this. hear church. Do you understand how crazy that is to actively choose to pee on yourself to continue to lie that you got cancer? In God's house. You stain God's carpet. Anyway,

one of the maids she said, or her nanny, she said, I always thought it was weird how she shaved all her head off because she said she had chemo, but she still had her eyebrows. Wow. Evidence. Why you still got this?

Why they still arched perfectly? She was like she was like she said she had chemo, but she was still gaining weight. And she was like, I just never met nobody. Do you know how nuts you got to be to act like you got cancer for devil? It was given

sociopath or even psychopath. Like just the complete absence of consciousness. Not consciousness, like awareness, but a conscience like there's some... You have no conviction. There's certain things we shouldn't do. Right.

Instead of our saying, it's just certain things you just don't. I don't mean a shame to girl. But anyway, come on, Amanda. Just go watch Amanda. Amanda Riley. We're praying for you, girl. Anyway, we wanted to have a conversation. We don't know where this conversation will go.

Nope. A lot of our podcasts actually are that way, where we will say, hey, this is the topic we want to broach. And we will just see how it ends up. And that's kind of what this is, is that we want to have some conversation around church, around preaching, around, pastoring about church membership. I don't know, we just want to have it.

And the reason I want to have it is because it's a worthwhile question to have, especially in light of being post-pandemic. I think church is complicated for a lot of people. Like I remember for me, I really got highly adjusted to not having to go to church for those, what? Was that a year and a half?

Yeah. What about you? I did. I was like, yo, I can see all the NBA games. I don't have to miss none. I don't have to like watch no reruns, you know, gained a little weight. And so I just, I got really, really comfortable.

And also, too, I've seen a lot of people kind of go, you know, returning back to church lately. But a lot of people didn't, you know. And I think a lot of people kind of said, man, do I really need church? You know what I said? Do I really need the community? but then I had a flux of people saying like I really realized how much I needed community and how much community not having community really affecting me.

So I think it just kind of affected people in different ways. I have a theory and I don't have a word from God to prove it per se. But I do, I often thought, I wonder if in the amount of time that we did not have, that we weren't gathering together in a local church if there was a particular grace that God had given Christians, right?

Because he knows we can't gather because people are dying and people are sick and it is a whole pandemic where it's like just because you had the grace it doesn't mean that the grace is going to be extended. Like where he was being merciful towards us

to preserve us in light of our inability to gather. But now that we have the ability to gather, gather, I would not presume that that grace is still present. Yeah. Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good thought. But also, too, you know, I remember doing the pandemic just briefly thinking about all the things that God is doing because God is always doing

so many different things when we just kind of focused on one. And so I was thinking about the people who took community for granted. How are you understanding the significance of community for the people who who kind of take being in a church community like lightly like for me there was a comfortableness but it was also

a longing for being connected to the church body, you know what I'm saying? And I was just wondering for all the people who took the church for granted in the past that that affected in a particular type of way because I know it affected me. I think the pandemic

it brought to the surface and kind of reinforced any disconnection that was already pre-existed. What do you mean? So like with us, we still didn't necessarily feel super connected to our church. We were there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But we didn't necessarily have those intimate relationships that we had in Chicago. Yeah. And so with the pandemic, it didn't feel like I was missing anything.

Yeah. It just was, there's no building anymore, but I still feel the same. Yeah. So I think if people were already disconnected, then it kind of reinforced that idea of why am I, which is a lie to say, I don't need this. Yeah. I don't need them. Because that is the metaphor or the metaphor of body that Paul consistently speaks to in the

Gospels has this idea of these different members, these individual people, beings, all being united in one body under one head, right? And so to say that I don't need other Christians is to completely go against the whole grain of the New Testament and even the Old Testament. Yeah. But I can understand that feeling. Yeah, for me, like, even though I didn't have the relationships

that I had in Chicago, I still kind of just missed the connection of just being able to talk to other Christians on an everyday basis. It was kind of like, you know. But also, too, I think after the pandemic was over, I really felt challenged and I think we both felt challenged by the Lord

to really say man how can we use our gifts to serve our local community in a particular way because I think what the pandemic and just also God's conviction is like no like the church is important and the church needs all of us to thrive

and I think for me this is just for me I think I've always kind of looked at the church and always try to say like how can the church be better but I really incorporated myself in that that's good I really say well man how can I add to this body for this body to be better and I think oftentimes we can do that we can say man the church would be this if it's just this would happen but this is kind of like what about the church becoming better when you are acting why why do you think we

We are more inclined to criticize the church. We should, there is a healthy criticism, right? Yeah. But why do you think we are not as apt to see ourselves in the ability to help it be better? Like, what is that in us? Because I think it could be many things. I don't think it's just pride.

It could be insecurity. Yeah, it could be insecurity, but I think it could be insecurity. I also think it could be a lack of awareness of your own sinfulness. It's kind of like when you sin, you be like, Lord, I know you forgive me. And it's like, with somebody else sin,

it's like shame on them. You know, and I think that the Lord has to kind of show you that know, like, this body that you're critiquing, you're also a part of, right? You are also a member of this body. And if you haven't added any thing to this body, like, why are you complaining that much?

And I know the Lord really had to convict me of that a couple of times. And so I think it could be a mixture of those things. And maybe even more than I'm not thinking about. Yeah, I think arrogance is what you said, which is, you know, it's kind of like when Jesus was saying how we could see the spec in our brother's eye. But we need to actually remove the plank out of our own eyes so that we could actually discern properly.

And so I think we are naturally really good at seeing specs. at seeing little problems all the time. And I think some of that is fair and healthy. God has made us observant. God has given us the ability to see a problem. That's a good thing to see a problem. I think the problem is when we have no end, like we don't put that same amount of energy

into seeing how we can walk alongside to fix that problem. Yeah. So whether the problem, like the problem could be, you don't like the worship team. Right. Right. Like, I don't know. They flat every Sunday, Jesus.

Everybody on here. I keep telling you about it. Everybody on here might be really holy where they could go to a church where the worship team is like, We lift our hands in the sanctuary. Let me do a different key. Go ahead. We lift our hands just to give you the glory. We lift our hands just to give you the praise.

And you just. You just tuning it out. It's about you, Jesus. I love this song. I can't do that. I can't, because I'm musically inclined, right? So it's so hard for me to push past bad worship singing to worship Jesus. I know that's my thing.

But go ahead. What's you going to say? I don't want to change the subject. I want to let you finish that because I have a question for you. Go ahead. Do you think, in light of that, do you think that churches should consider

how... I love how random this conversation is because we just jump in. Should consider how not so good worship music can be a deterrent to keep people away from church.

I think it's complicated. Okay. Break it down. Because sometimes quality musicians cost more than the church has resources for. Okay.

That's one. Make it plain. Two, I think sometimes the leadership actually just doesn't have the same love or concern for the music than they have for the discipleship or the preaching, right? So they might have excellent preaching.

But the music is like, you know what I'm saying? So they just don't care like that. Yeah. So I think the concern should be God's glory. It's not bogus to see and experience worship or to see the worship team and be like, that could be better. Yeah.

It's another thing when you're griping about it and you're not praying. Yeah. Or you're not going to the leadership and saying, hey, I have a friend who, you know, has a master's degree in music or something like that. Like, she can help to help them learn, you know, their notes. Like, just try to imagine what is your skill set and what are the resources that you have that you can then bring to the team? That's, that's... For some of us, all we got is prayer. Yeah, that's what I was going to say.

I think the responsibility has to fall on the church as a whole. and when I say the church as a whole, I'm just not talking about leadership. I think it's members in the congregation who might complain about things like worship and stuff like that, who might have a particular skill set that can serve this church in this particular community and just haven't stepped up.

And it can also be leadership that hasn't really taken into consideration that maybe we probably put so much emphasis on making sure we get the text right that we are not really understanding that people's experience is a whole, it should be a holistic experience. For sure. Right. And some people, you know, it might be a hindrance for them, you know, to go to church every single day and not enjoy the worship.

Some people can't even experience a sermon. I know people that will skip worship to go to the word or so, for example, when I was in St. Louis, we would go to one church for the worship. and then leave that church to go to our church to hear the sermon. I don't recommend that. I was 19, 20, 21. I was just like, I'm going to get some good word and worship. I can't do either or.

Wow. But now I've become much more flexible in my ability to. Yeah, and I've seen that. And I've seen that. But also, too, you know, in light of, in light of on a flip side, musicality. On the flip side, maybe the issue is in worship, because I think I hear so many people.

Are you funny to talk about preaching? Yeah, it's always those two things. It's, you know, some people love the worship. You're right, because ain't nobody mad that y'all serve in communion, you know, slow. Yeah. They could be quicker with the cups. It's always worship or the teaching, you know. And for me, you know, I love this church that I spoke at in London.

We were in London where the pastor was saying, you know, know, we're charismatic in our expression, but we're reformed in our theology. And I don't necessarily love the word reform, but I think what he just means is we try to stay true to the text and we try to, you know, be biblically accurate. And now I don't necessarily think that means automatic reformed. But I love when you can go to a church and you have both thriving, the teaching and the worship thriving. And so like, well, what would you say? Because earlier you made like a little tweet about preaching.

You should read it. Well, it's a thread. It's a thread. Technically. And I want to pick your thoughts about that. I'll just generalize it. So that's another area that can be a bit complicated for me. Why did you just turn into Katie?

Anytime you do something, you naturally develop an eye for it, right? And so when I am listening to teaching and preaching, I am listening to not just the content, but even the technique. Because you're functioning in a world that I live into, right? And I think what I was trying to get at with the threads is really this idea that there seems to be an inordinate preoccupation with preachers being clever, so much so that they are more imaginative and creative than they are doctrinal.

And so there's a lack of education and teaching and primarily teaching about Jesus that is filling up the pulpits and even the sermon clips that we see on Instagram. And I see this as a problem. One, because even Paul says, I made sure not to know nothing among y'all but Jesus and him crucified

lest my wisdom take away from his power, right? And so I see the opposite of that where it's like, no, I want my wisdom and I want my intellect and I want my creativity and I want my rhetorical skills to be the thing that is first and foremost. But what that does is it hinders Christ from being seen where people are joining the church,

going to the altar call, responding, not because of the power of the gospel and the cross as illuminated and energized by the power of the spirit, but because you were good at what you said. That is a problem to me. Yeah. Let me just say something regarding that. I think that's good.

But one, I want to just say a lot of the pastors that I've seen kind of do this or teachers that I see do this. I want to just want to affirm them because a lot of them are just very smart, brilliant people. And I think a lot of times are the natural intelligence and the brilliance that God has given us can be a hindrance. Yeah. When we allow that to be the forefront before the word, right? and before we really dig into a text to try to see know what does God want to communicate here? Because I think a lot of times when we read something

because we can be imaginative or because we can be very creative or because we... Which is fine. A parable is created. Yeah, right, right, right. Let me just say this. I think a lot of times we can look at a text and we can say, man, how can I, you know, make this more relatable to the people, right? And I think sometimes even getting a particular

the response is the motivating factor than allowing like God to be clear here. And I'm not saying everybody is doing this. I'm just saying that can be a temptation, especially when you're getting a lot of praises and shouts and amen's on a sermon. But I do think people underestimate how much they can still do that if they take a little more time just studying God's word and studying the text. You can still do all of those things. And it would actually make the sermon even more.

powerful, right? If you would just take time to say, man, like, what is, what is God trying to communicate here? Because I think a lot of times, you know, a pastor gets off the stage, they read a sermon. But at the end, they just had a whole bunch of quotables and they didn't actually communicate what God was trying to communicate to us. And I think I have a couple of issues with how that's done. So what you, what you was about to say? I always have so much to say about this. I don't want this to become a preaching podcast. But I think one of the reasons somebody could preach a quote unquote sermon because it's not a sermon,

but one reason someone could preach a so-called sermon that is 30 minutes of them and illustrations and entertainment and all the things. Without the word of God, like even we have sat under some teaching where the person was like, like the whole sermon is kind of like a really well-rounded motivational speak thing and then they'll quote a passage and we're like, well, I ain't got time to get to the passage. It's like, why are we here? Yeah. But so if you don't have time to get to the passage, that means you don't think that the power and the authority rest in the passage.

Right. It rests in what you have to say. It rests in a... And that's not authority. Yeah. And let me just clarify something because I think some people might hear us say, man, they want everything to be exegetical. No.

That's not what we're saying. Everything doesn't have to be exegetical teaching. Jesus wasn't even exegetical happening. Right, right. And I think a lot of times we've learned, well, we've been taught that the only way to be biblically accurate is to kind of conform to like this Western, you know, mostly how white men have taught us how to read and study and teach the scriptures.

And I do think that, you know, you can be topical and still biblical. The problem is when we teach the text, right? And while we're teaching the text, we're not pointing people back to Jesus. That's the only issue. So you could be topical, you could be exegetical, but it's like, man, have you given people a bunch of quotables

or have you pointed people to the reason why this text was inspired by the Holy Spirit in the first place? Even if people just took a survey of their favorite preacher because part of this that's conflicting is we're not even talking about people's pastors necessarily. Because I've heard from pastors, they will say people listen to

preacher influencers more than they do me. Right. So just your favorite sermon, how much word did he quote or she quote, how much time did they spend in the text, like, time it out. If they were in that text for two minutes, bro. And the rest, 40 minutes was about sometimes.

It was all application. It was all illustration. That's a problem to me. It is. Because, like, you have people who are dead and sin. You have people who are suicidal. You have people who have lost friends and family. You have people that are over here going into witchcraft,

and you're giving them everything but what they need. Yeah. I have a problem with that. example, Romans 1, verse 16. If you love the Cray, you know this verse. It says, for I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation. How are people going to be saved if there is no gospel, Preston? Yeah, yeah. So that tells me you don't care. Yeah. Yeah, it has to be a gospel presentation because, one, the people in the congregation, the people in the pews or the chairs, whatever. They need to hear the gospel, but it also needs to be, okay, okay. It's going to be okay.

It's going to be okay. It's a fire in my wife's belly right now. But also I think people need to hear a sermon and a text that points back to Jesus because we don't understand how much teachers are not only just teaching people, but they're also teaching. people how to read the Bible. Yes. We're teaching people how to read the text, right? And so a lot of times people can leave the service knowing how to quote their pastor with these fancy quotables, but they don't know how to go home and read the Bible for themselves because that is also a form of a discipleship. It's like, man, like this was a shadow.

Like this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, um, this, um, this, um, this, um, this, this, um, the Old Testament is not just of how. how we can get rid of our haters or how we can stop doing this and stop doing that and how we can come up and how we can be successful in the business. No, this was a shadow of what was to come. And so we don't understand how big that is for somebody to see, no, wow, this was pointing back to Jesus 700 years before he actually came, right? And so when they go back to their homes, they have a framework of everything that we read in the Bible points to a person. And that person is not me.

That person should not be me, right? And so we have to see it not just on giving a gossip presentation, being redundant every single week. No, we have to see that this is also a form of discipleship. Yes. Yes. I thought you was going to say something after that. I'm trying to decipher what is worthy of being said.

I think I empathize with many of the people who are attracted to that kind of teaching and preaching because it feels good. It feels encouraging. It feels inspiring. But what I'm saying is that wisdom inclines me to say that it's not solid. It's sinking sand.

What's solid is Christ Jesus himself. And so when the winds and the waves come, will your house be able to stand on that kind of teaching? I don't think it will. And so I guess that's what's in my mind is our ability to actually stay rooted in Jesus. And we can't stay rooted in Jesus if we don't know him. And if we're not learning about him and if we're not seeking him.

And if the majority of the sermon is just about me, then it's not actually about him. He did not just die for me to learn about me. He died so I could know God. Yeah. That's why I'm here. That's why I have a brain. And so I think I'm saying that because I want to give language for how to discern when that kind of teaching is what you're being taught because you don't even know. Yeah.

On the positive end, I think I told you this before, it was at the church, maybe a couple months ago. I was like, I wonder how social media is actually making it hard for most local pastors. What do you mean? Because on social media also, what you got is. you kind of got top-tier preaching. I'm not saying content, but stylistically, you got people that are really great rhetorically.

Yeah, a lot of people who get the most followers quick. But I think, like, it can make it hard for teachers and pastors. They're not great rhetorically, but they're solid. Yeah. And so I just, what do you think about that, like how social media is even influencing the standards people are setting for what they want in church? I will warn people. I will warn people to, one,

about what type of leadership that you go up under locally and what kind of influences you listen to on social media because it is way more beneficial to be under somebody who points you to Jesus than it is to be under somebody who just merely entertains you. It is way more beneficial. And I think, you know, praise God if you get both. Yeah.

But, you know, a good example. Tony Evans is a both. Yes. An excellent, clear, winsome persuasive communicators. One of my favorites of all time. One of my favorites of all time. Yeah.

Charlie Dates. Charlie Dates. Tim Keller. Tim Keller. Eric Mason. Yeah. So many good passes that do both. And so praise God if you can get both.

Right? But the main thing is you want to be up to somebody who shows you God because at the end of the day, it's more important for somebody to show you God because that will do is that will teach you how to look for God when you're not at church. It shows you, okay, he points to Jesus in every single passage.

And so he might not be the most entertaining pastor. But when I go home, I have a framework to read the scriptures and to know how to look for him myself because I'm seeing it modeled every single week. And I could practically say, you know, listen to somebody that's boring. It is. I'm bored by a lot of preachers. You know what I'm saying?

Where it's like, okay, like you really going to speak at this level? But can I say something, though? Go ahead. I don't mean to cut you off, but I used to feel the same way. But that's because I was, that's because I myself was shallow in God's word. Interesting. Yeah. It's, it's, I can, I was able to.

also too, a lot of people who I thought was boring that ended up not being boring when I learned the word for myself because I thought Tim Keller was boring. Yeah, when you started to swim in the text. Yes, when I first thought in Tim Keller, like back in the day, I was like, this man, don't raise his voice,

not one time or whatever, but he became one of my favorite... R.P. Tim Kelly, he became one of my favorite Bible teachers because I knew he was going to point me to Jesus. And I knew he was going to do it. this man had the ability to say the most profound things in the most mundane way.

And I was just like, yo, this man is amazing. You know what I'm saying? But back then, I didn't have an ear for it because I spent so much time trying to be entertained. I didn't even know what being pointed to Jesus even looked like. Yeah, I think that's excellent, what you just said. And I would add, I think you cannot compare what you see on social media to what you experience.

locally. Yes. Right. And so social media, whoever is popping up in your algorithm, whoever is the most popular, they're usually going to be really good communicators because that's the way social media is structured. It's structured for us to platform and propel up those who keep our engagement, right? And so when it comes to your local church community, if the pastor or the preacher aren't as great as a communicator as you would like.

Listen to what they're saying. Like, who are they pointing you toward? Who are they showing you? But even how they live, I think we undervalue the fact that we have access to the people that are preaching to us. You get what I'm saying? Like, it is better for me to be underneath a pastor

who may not be the greatest preacher, but he's solid and he's holy. That, like, the cats on social media, I actually don't know how they live. I actually, I don't know their life. I can't even go into their homes to see if what they're telling me is true. Don't put your home. People don't know how we live.

That's what I'm saying. We can be out here at Ratchet. But we have people in our local community who can see us or are learning to see us and get access to us as we're trying to build like more intimate relationships. But my point is, is I think we have to interrogate our value system. Yeah. When it comes to the local church, like what are we valuing? Are we valuing just? really good skills.

Are we valuing integrity? Are we valuing honor? Are we valuing love? Are we valuing gentleness? Do they look like Jesus? That should encourage you to listen to that man. Or listen to that woman if you go to a church where the pastor's what. Like listen to them, watch them.

And if they actually live what they're saying, to me, that is more monumental than if they can't teach that great. Because at the end of the day, that's what's going to last. Yeah. That's what's going to last. That's good. Now while we're here. Probably here.

There's so many things we can say, but I do want to, what is, what's the point? What I get, because we got friends that are Christian, we Christian, Kim's a Christian, Abishah's a Christian. Like, we're surrounded by, we're a community now, right? Yeah. So why do I have to go to a local church when just being around my Christian friends is also a community? One, I think God is a God of order. And so, you know, I think he's given us, the Bible says he's given us shepherds after his own heart.

And I'm no shade to Kim, but she can't shepherd me. She can, you know, give me a... She can shoot you. Right. But, you know, I do think that we need... The Bible says that we need people to tend, you know, to our souls and to care for us spiritually. and God has always used people to help carry out his will. And I think the local church is a great example of how God's order is, his wisdom is in that order, right?

Of having leaders, of having deacons, of having pastors and all of the stuff. And so I do think that because we are rebellious, because we are sinful, because we fall, right? we can't just look at Jesus as our only authority. You know, he has given us earthly people to be an authority over us. And so I think that, you know, we can't lead amongst one another if we can't be led spiritually. And so I think that's a huge thing is being under leadership. But also, too, I think it is something special about when a body of a body of people comes together to intentionally worship the God,

worship God as a local body. I think God delights in it. I think God is just really pleased when a body of people come together to sing and to hear about him and commune. I think that his presence is there in a special type of way. And so those are the two things that pop in my head first. I want to turn to something.

I had an ecclesiology class last. semester that was really good for my heart when it came to the church. Yeah, because I think I had gotten a little disillusioned by the local church. Because I've shared my story when it comes to church a couple times about like how I was a part of like a church that was low-key, highly legalistic, a little cultish. Our pastor was using scripture to sexually manipulate people and get money out of us. And so there was a big season of my life where I was like, I'm good on church. and then I joined the church in St. Louis and realized that it was the church that healed me from church hurt, right?

And so I think during that experience, I realized that when God uses, when God shows up in the earth, a lot of times it's through other Christians. So like me being disconnected from them kind of hinders and limits the access to God that I can experience. I said all that's saying. In my ecclesiology class,

he brought up this text as a foreshadow of the church, which was so crazy to me. So let me go to it. It's in Exodus 19. Okay. Verse 16, on the morning of the third day, there were thunders and lightnings and a thick cloud on the mountain

and a very loud trumpet blast so that all the people in the camp trembled. Then Moses, listen to this, brought the people out of the camp to meet God, and they took their stand at the foot of the mountain. And then verse 19,

as the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder Moses spoke, and God answered, him and thunder. Obviously, God starts to give his law and the commandments to his people, but what you see is God's people gathering in one place to meet with God and hear teaching. And so that's a foreshadow of now what we have called this church, this body of people that God has saved for himself, but not only reconciled us to the Father, but connected us to each other. And so it just, we are missing something if we don't gather.

Gather. Together. To meet with God and to hear God's work. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So it's in the scripture how the gathering of believers underneath the preach word of God and communion and the sacraments and all of that is just, it's all very important. And so I'm not ignorant.

I'm not ignorant about how that just is a turnoff for people who have been hurt or people who have seen the church or churches not do stuff right like even like all these documentaries he got coming out. We had Hill song about they got two of them. We got the little Duggers documentary

about the people that had like 20-something kids. Like I've been wondering how that might be. I love what you said though before you even read the scripture though because about your experience with essentially church hurt and how God used another church

to heal you. And I do think that's just a testament of God because oftentimes he'd run away from the things we run away from the things that will actually help us like God will use the same thing that that that that that wounded you to heal you right and and that's people and so a lot of I think we said this on the church hurt episode a couple of years ago but a lot of times God wants you to to heal from church hurt by connecting back with the church it is God has always used people to help carry out his will, you know? And that's not really going to change, right?

And you want to be connected to his people. And so just because some of his people hurt you doesn't mean God can use some of his people to help heal you. And so, like, I thought that was powerful. I said this in one of our podcasts before, but I want to repeat it because I think it's good for this conversation. We repeat a lot of stuff from this podcast. You know, it's five years ago.

remember. When I was struggling with rejoining church, because I was out of church for a year, because I was like, pastors are liars, bro. I just was so good. I was like, I got my friends. I got the Bible. You know, Priscilla Steyer. She showed me how to make a little prayer closet. Like, I'm straight. And the pastor of that church, he led me to this text and the spirit of God used it to convict me. It's Acts chapter 9 verse 4. And falling to the ground, he heard a voice.

This is Paul, Saul. Saul, why are you persecuting me? And he said, who are you, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. And I had never realized that Jesus so identifies with his church

that to come at the church is to come at Jesus. And so to me, that meant I needed to change my language and my perspective around the church because God cares for, that's his bride, that's his wife. But we have to think about, we have to think about like... And we're not talking about enemies of the church. There's a distinction between calling out, exposing,

and critiquing enemies of the church, but we don't want to carry that same critique and energy on people who are actually members of the church. Yeah, because I think we have to think about that accounted that Paul had on the way to Damascus. is when Jesus kind of knocked them off his high horse, literally. Literally. Literally.

And we have to look at his heart posture once he became a Christian and once God changed his name. And that's one of the reasons why he said, I, Paul, I'm the worst of all sinners when he was right into the church, right? And so Paul had this heart posture that said, man, like, I'm not going to come and just complain about the church because I recognize what God brought me from.

I'm still very much connected to what God brought me from and how much he showed me that I was hurting this, this, this, this, his broad that he, that he, that he, that he, that he loved. And I think a lot of times we could just be, we can grow so accustomed to being part of a church that we don't really see her as somebody that God really, really cares for and how we were low-key persecuting it. Yeah, because it's, if we know that God cares for us, we know and we quote Philippians, he who started a good work

will finish it, but that's plural. Like, he who started a good work in the church will finish it. So the same hope you have for your own sanctification. We just apply that scripture to us. He'll finish the work in me. I don't know about the church. Or like that we are his beloved and we are his friend

and we are his child. No, no, we are his beloved and we are his children. Like he, what I'm saying, is the same affection that we recognize that Christ has for us and the same intention that Christ has put towards making sure that at the end of the day we're going to be all right and we're going to be holy. We have to apply that logic to the body. No, that was literally me when I was a young Christian

and Brian was like, yo, you church hopping and you need to get in the local church. Like, not only, the Bible says that we're all members of this body. I didn't even act like a toenail. Like I like I What? You know like like I Criticise the church so much What did that do for you?

Because sometimes criticism is a way to get the pain out Yeah For me I felt Rejected The first church that I went to They told me I didn't have all his spirit Because I didn't speak in tongues And so I'm like yo like I got

You know My videos on YouTube I'm starting to blow up And other churches are recognizing the gifts And me And so forget the church Like God has gifted me I'm new

I don't smoke weed no more I don't fornicate no more But y'all telling me I'm not a Christian Because I was speaking tongues I was deeply wounded by that And I was just church hopping Church hopping And when I would go to do poetry

At these spots I would be a Christian But I were always in my spills Between poems I would always just Boo Boo on the church And it wasn't until you know The guy Brian died

Like started to like Follow me to all my places was like, yo, I see something in you, but you need to be connected to a local body. I'm like, no, you just want to control me. And he was like, no, I think that you have some church hurt. You've been wounded. And you need to realize that God wants you a part of this body.

He just don't want you to use your gifts out in the world and boo-boo on this body. Right? And not only did he want me a part of the body, he wanted me to realize that I am a part of this body. Like, I'm literally a part of the same body that I'm abusing. And so I'm abusing. Because your church membership is just an outward experience.

of a spiritual reality. Yeah. You are spiritually in a body. Local church membership doesn't necessarily govern that. It's an expression of that. It's an expression of that. Yeah. And I was kind of shunning that expression.

And by still thinking, you know, I can just be doing poetry and everybody's church. Yeah. And so, yeah, yeah, I really, the Lord really had to correct me. It was like, yo, you need to chill one. And you need to be like Paul and realize that you are the word. of all sinners and humble yourself. And when I did that,

I was able to, I was able to grow. Yeah. I was really able to grow when I became connected to a solid group of believers who was able to care for me, who was able to correct me,

who was able to cultivate gifts in me. It was gifts in me. It was a gift. Like, I just knew I was a talented poet that guy gave me the gift of writing. I didn't know I was an evangelist. I didn't know I had the gift of teaching. I didn't know how to,

I didn't know, of that. It's like got in the local community. Yeah. Yeah. I feel conflicted only because conflicted because I'm hearing or

just anticipating some of the pain that conversations like this bring up for people. And I'm thinking through how do I encourage, how do I speak to, how do I stir up hope? And I guess one is to acknowledge that

people who are called Christians hurt people. Yeah. Deeply hurt people, you know, sexually abused people, steal their money, or just dishonor them or look over them or ignore them. I think about how the Lord has been inclined in my heart to pray for older saints in the church who are over 70 who are being ignored and not being acknowledged and their gifts aren't being utilized or used. That was deep when the Lord started to show you that doing your glory events. I never even thought about old.

older people in the church who don't feel seen. Yeah, they don't. Yeah, I never thought about that. They have a wealth of wisdom and history. I think about singles in the church who will say out loud, like, y'all really treat me like I'm a leper

because I'm not married. Like, I'm thinking about all of that and how it makes sometimes the church a hard place to be. But I guess my encouragement is God, God loves her. God has his sights set on her God has promised to finish the work in her that he started

God like when you when you read Revelation 19 what do you see you don't see one solo Christian you see you see a millions of believers gathered together underneath the light and the glory of God and so I think it's worth trying again I think it's worth considering again, I think it's worth

bearing with your brothers and what it really I think forces us to do is to be dependent on God. You need God's love and his power and his strength and his courage and his healing to be able to love the church that he's called us to love. Because before we started this podcast,

we didn't know in what direction it was going to go in and I know we did a church hurt episode before and it kind of ended with church hurt or it's ending with church or within the direction of church church. But I do think that's just something that's always going to be relevant because when you are in a group of people, you're always going to get wounded because people are flawed. And we're not saying tolerate abuse or manipulation, right?

expose those things when wolves and sheep clothing start to hunt you like no we're saying like man like when you are connected to anybody of people you're going to get wounded but if it's God's people it is still the safest place to be and we just have to believe that by not merely believing in people

but believing in the God of those people and so that's one thing I really had to challenge myself with it's like no like am I putting my hope in people or am I putting my hope in the God of this people, right? Because people are going to fail me, but God is never going to fail us. And he's going to use us as a collective body

to accomplish his will to the world. And so, like, I think we have to just model that the best way possible. You mind praying for the people listening? People who might have been hurt, who need healing, people who are looking for churches and can't find them. People who are frustrated because it's not

Definitely a draw in Atlanta. Yeah, people who are frustrated because they're not getting what they want out of a particular church. I pray for those people, yeah. So let's just pray real quick. Dear Lord, we thank you, God, for this podcast. God, we didn't know exactly what we were going to say, but we prayed and we asked you to lead us and to help us to show us what you wanted us to say. And so, God, I just thank you, God, not only for your word, but you're leading. You are a good God who leads your people into all truth.

you sent your son who knew no sin to become sin so that we can become the righteousness of God and the son sent the Holy Spirit to convict us of righteousness and in truth. And so God, I thank you that the whole trium God of Scripture has not only played an active role in our salvation, but has played an active role in our sanctification. And so God, I thank you, Father, for that. I thank you, God, for the church, the church that you have established for your people, for us to learn, for us to be corrected, for us to be built up,

for us to just commune with you. And so, God, I just pray for the people who are listening. Church can be a very complicated thing because it's filled with complicated people. And so, God, I pray for the person that's listening who feels confused about where should they worship. I pray, God, that you leave them

to the right church that will serve them well, that would nourish them well, that will care for them well, that will grow them well. I pray for the person who's at a church and they want to leave, Lord, but they feel like you're not allowing them to leave. God, would you give them the strength to endure? Would you give them the strength to withstand the frustration, even?

Would you help them to communicate with their leadership in a way that glorifies you? that brings change, the change that you want them to bring at that local community. I pray for the leaderships of these churches, Lord. I pray God that they would have a more intentive ear to that congregation. I pray God that they will really hear the cries of the people, that they will hear the hearts of the people, that they will see young and old, that they will see educated and non-educated,

that they will see everybody, Lord. know being a shepherd, being a pastor of a church is no easy task. It is, it comes with spiritual attacks. It comes with, um, sacrifice in time with family. It comes with so much, Lord. And so, God, I just pray for our spiritual leaders that you will encourage them, that you will build them up. I pray against people in the congregation who, to be quite frank, sometimes is used by the enemy to beat up leaders, to beat up pastors, to discourage them. I pray, God, that you will convict. victim of sin. I pray God that you will restore the relationship between leaders and congregates. I pray, God, that you will restore the relationship of people who have been wounded by

leadership to their past as God. And I just pray, Father, for the church as a whole, that you will build us up in righteousness and in truth and that you will lead us, God, to all truth by the power of your Holy Spirit. We love you. We thank you. We believe you for all we have asked in Jesus. Mighty name. Amen. Amen. The Perry's is produced by The Perrys with support from Amanda Reed and Channing B. McBride. Editing by Xavier Fairley, video recording and audio production by Kim Powell, artwork by Hop, and music by Swoop. If you'd like to support the Perrys, you can visit the link in the show notes. This is with the Perrys. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.