With The Perrys - Act Like a Man

Episode Date: June 2, 2025

In 1 Corinthians, Paul says, “Act like men, be strong.” But what does manhood look like? In this episode, Preston explores some of his earliest views of masculinity as a kid and what it meant to ���be a man.” The development of our identity is shaped by both parents in unique ways, so the Perrys talk about the dynamics of being nurtured – or not – by a mother and a father. They also discuss the modeling of emotional maturity, the idea of attachment theory, healthy relationships with other men, and opportunities for discipleship.   This Episode of With The Perrys is Sponsored By:   https://www.covenanteyes.com — Get Victory by Covenant Eyes FREE for 30 days with promo code PERRYS Resources: Manhood Restored (Dr. Eric Mason) This Momentary Marriage (John Piper)   Scripture references: 1 Corinthians 16:13 Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It's the Saints And the Ains It's the Saints and the A The Saints and A song back, huh? It's the Saints and the Ais That's my beat It's the Saints and the A I'm surprised somebody ain't put like no theme music today yet

I mean they can Y'all can send it to me Oh man I can just see our inboxes next week That'd be a party You know Oh my gosh, I just gonna have all the Christian hip hop producers Put the beats to the Saints

No, we need an organ. We need an organ and some drums. I think when I was driving and dropping the girls off, I was like, ooh, it's the saints in the, yeah. I was like, I ain't sang it. I didn't sing it on the first episode back. That happened this morning. Yeah, it came to my spirit.

Canning a spirit. And so I was like, hmm, let's bring that back. Let's roll that back out. That's a really nice hat you got on. You like it? You've been popping up with all these nice hats, and I've just been filling away. Because I remember it was a time in our marriage.

where you didn't really buy, you'd be like, I got this for you. Remember you used to do stuff like that? You'd be like, I got this for you. And I'd be like, oh, I'd be like... This don't sound like a discussion that needs to be had on the mic. I feel so special.

And then you would come in a room like, hey husband, I got... And then... I didn't just buy you a hat. I didn't just buy you that hat that you won in the first episode, the little blue hat. I ain't just buy you that.

Oh, yeah, you did what... Got you did what you got me. You see how easy we... That's how we were with the Lord. We forget so fast. Yeah, your memory is... You need to read Deuteronomy one good time. I'm just saying with the hats that you'd be coming out with, they'd be fire.

Oh, I appreciate that. Popping out. I'm sorry. I'll think about you more. Yeah, think about me more. It's just honestly, truly. You got the little bad boy swayed, mace 1998. Take that, take that.

I don't think the texture is swayed. But I do know that a lot of times when I am purchasing items, because you know, you got that energy. That's the reason why I didn't get tattoos for a long time. You got that, like, that energy. where it's like I get it so you think you gotta get it. That's not true. Yeah, you just did that. I didn't do.

You literally just did that. I don't be doing that, man. You got some shoes? Why ain't get some shoes? Oh, you got tattoo? Why ain't get tattooed? Don't act like you. Don't act like you don't be doing the same thing.

You got, oh, you got some little shoes, huh? I do not. I take an initiative upon myself to get what I want when I want it. Yet at the same time, I think what you're not understanding is when we double it up, that's more money. So why are you trying to. So if I get one hat versus two hats, that's a bad stewardship type of situation. So you brought it up.

I feel like you're attacking me. That's gas lighting. Like, that's like, that's like legitimately, or deflection. It's not gaslighting. I feel attacked. It's not gaslighting. What we're talking about? Being a man or something.

You know, I don't want to disrespect you, but you tempted me. You know, I'm saying? I grew up under female leadership that just disrespecting me all the time. So just in my flesh I'm just like ah You're coming for me I'm not coming for you I apologize

I apologize It's like because you gotta open it up that way You got my spirit unsettled You got my spirit I should have just said nice hat Yes Let me go

Let's try it again It's the saints And the eight But that's a really nice hat You think so Oh it brings out your skin perfectly All right man I like your smile

All right man There's this series on Netflix that we watched a couple weeks ago. It was like number one on Netflix for a second called Adolescent or Adolescence. One of them, I don't know the tense. And it's about a little boy who does some bad. And the whole show is kind of this really interesting exploration of his view of masculinity, his view of women, his view of sexuality, his view of dating, and how that plays a part in what he does. did. Yeah. I like how you said did something bad because people would be

telling like the whole little movies and stuff like that. Yeah, no, what you're watching? Yeah, yeah. And I, I, one of the episodes I was watching and I called Preston Downstairs and I was like, I want to watch this with you and get your view of what is happening. Because in the second episode, the little

boy is basically meeting with a therapist and low-key, create. What's fascinating about the show is that the whole thing is shot with one take. So I want to Watching it as a creative, like these Negro, they weren't Negroes, but you know, these Europeans, they are over here. They was shot excellent. They, this whole one scene is one scene. Anyway, that's right. And that's the, a white boy was acting.

You're not supposed to say white. Was he not white? Caucasian. Man, white people don't care about that. British. British. British. He was, he was, he was a white Caucasian great actor. The boy had the chops. I asked you to come downstairs so I can get your insight and your thoughts as a man about the themes that they were exploring. And so we're not going to talk about that movie or that show or whatever, but I do think it will be cool to have a conversation about masculinity, about manhood,

about what that has meant for you, what that means for you, what you see even in the landscape of, because I think we had a similar conversation with Ezekiel, but I think this one will be a bit different because I don't even necessarily want to focus so much on men as it relates to relationships. We can get there. but primarily men as it relates to identity as it relates to calling all the stuff. And so you were born a man. And I'm wondering, though, when you started to create or have a conception of what masculinity and manhood meant, like, whether is your earliest thoughts of, oh, that's what it means for me to be me. Yeah, I mean, sadly, when I started to develop ideas of what manhood was, it was all false.

skewed and distorted ideas and I think it was probably like seven to nine where I started to just see like oh my uncle's who it is that's manhood or just trying to imitate them you know and trying to just be cool or be accepted by women

or you know collecting a whole bunch of dollars and acting like I had like a lot of money in my like a lot like a stack in my pocket because that's what all the men had you know what I'm saying around me was money and so it was just trying to imitate what was around me you know which was um distorted views and concepts of manhood you know um and so around seven and nine that's when I started to um to think like man this is what it means to be a man yeah you never had or did you have an experience where

a man sat you down and had a conversation about what man was or was it all kind of implicit? Absolutely not. Yeah, absolutely not. I remember a couple of years ago when I wrote the poem Who Gives a Black Man permission to Feel. And I talked about in that poem how the first time my uncle set me down to talk to me about what should I do

when I was stopped by the police. You know, that was the first time my uncle actually set me down and talked to me about something serious. you know, other than that, it was kind of like life on life of this like shit. Like, come ride to a stove with me. Oh, come do this with me. Come do that with me. But, you know, when he got stopped by the police and the police threatened to kill him, you know, we went home.

And I lived with him at the time. And he set me down. And I'm thinking like, okay, we can have a serious conversation, you know. And he was just like, when you get stopped by the police, you do this, you do that, you do that. You're a black man. You got to be safe by. You see what I just went through? And it was kind of like, that was the only conversation.

that he ever had about to save your life. You know, and then a couple of years, a year later, he had a conversation with me about sex. And it was, you know, when you have sex, wear a condo. That was it. I was like, I'm 11. And then the next year he was murdered. And so, you know, that was like the most serious conversation

somebody had with me about manhood. Why do you think, because even when I think about, like, me growing up, I felt like, It was only on TV where I saw parents having conversations. Do you know what I'm saying? Like it was like, oh, that's what they did on the Cosby show. I used to think that. I used to think that I'd be like, why they be doing?

Like, this is so fake. People don't do this for real. It's like y'all really be talking. And I guess I'm curious, why do you think, because it's not even a masculine, feminine thing. Like, why do you think older adults sometimes don't do the due diligence of having enough conversations as like training? as discipleship as like because really what happens is people leave their home trying to figure everything out. I had to figure out femininity. I had to figure out a lot of stuff. Yeah. And which means without the Holy Spirit, without scripture, without pastoring,

without sheds. That means I'm actually usually figuring it out without wisdom. Yeah. I think you only going to do what was done to eat with you. I think it's, I think it's just a repetitive cycle of, you know, not having the tools and not even thinking about it, you know, because, you know, I grew up in an environment. It was just like, you better learn. For sure. Like, everybody, you better get with the program. You see how we move, you know what I'm saying? So, like, if you come around my family, like, today, they'd be like, you better watch how we move. That basically means you move how we move. We're not going to teach him. We ain't for to sit down

and talk to you about, you know what I'm saying? And so, like, I think that's just kind of the environment that I grew up in. And so the fact that we sit down and talk to our kids, that's like a new thing. For sure it is. You know what I'm saying? So like the fact that my kids would actually sit down, my son would actually sit down and talk to his sons. I started that.

When we have conversations with Eden, my mom would be looking like, what y'all talk? Why are y'all doing all that talking? Y'all are doing all that talking. It's just like, because I don't want her to go to therapy as long as I did. Right. You know, I want to start now. And our teachers told us the day that she's an excellent community. communicator because we talked to her consistently. Yes. Yeah. What? When we were at the cabin for

spring break and you and your brother-in-law were talking about men and y'all mentioned how a lot of training doesn't even necessarily happen in a home. It happens in barbershops. It does. What's the difference then? Why are men training each other when they get their haircut and not usually having those same conversations at the crib? Yeah, I do think that the barbershops. Yeah. I do think that the Barbershop for men is a safe space. And I know this culture, and this is like this new generation used that word, like, they overuse it. But I do think it's legitimate in some circumstances. And I do think that the world, and I'm going to talk, I'm going to talk right now about black men.

Yeah. I'm black. Yeah, you don't go to gray clips. Yeah, right, right. Great clips? Great clips. word. She said great glyphs. Boy, if you don't get them shears away from me.

I hope y'all coughed. It's a joke. It's a joke. You don't get them cheers away. I'm sure conversations are at with y'all. She said great clips. Going there, come out with a bowl cut. You know, that bow cut that do head of soap food. Go ahead. Okay.

I do think that like the, like, especially for that, you know, African American male, I think the world is just, so much to deal with. And so I think to go to a place where you just see so many, why you still laughing, I'm trying to be serious. I'm trying to move on. Your eyes was watery. And I was like, no, that was funny.

Okay, go ahead. I'm sorry. Yeah. So I think to go to the barbershop and to see men that look like you, talking about the things that you love and that you're affectionate for or venting about your wife or vinting about your girlfriend or talking about who's. greater, LeBron and Mike, or I think it's just a place to exhale. And I do think that every, not just men, but everybody need that exhale. And when we get to exhale, you just get comfortable.

And so I think a lot of things just come out naturally. And then you always got to do that at the barbershop who thinks he's wise beyond his years. And sometimes they actually do, but sometimes they just, you know, they just like to talk. And so it's just a good, safe space. You know what I'm And that's the reason why I think that we need more Christians at barbershops, you know, since I'm always encouraging my barber to like, yeah, like evangelize and talk to people about Jesus because they need it. How, and I know you have to be careful in answering questions like this. But I'm curious on how I think the development of our identity really is shaped not just by our parents of the same gender,

but also our other parent, right? So it's like how I view myself as a woman is very much shaped by the absence of my father. But how I show up as a woman is also very much shaped by my mother. But I'm particularly really interested in how the way you are mothered shape the way you show up as a man.

That's a really good question. And it's not just, just a good question because I think about myself, but it's a good question because I think about all the men that I disciples deeply. All the men that I walked with deeply and I got the chance to know deeply, I'm very much in tune with their mother wounds more than anything. Almost as just as much as their father wounds. Because I think, you know, our fathers is our first heroes. But the way men interact with women and society tribes everything. Like if we don't, if we're not on one of core, if men don't respect women, if women don't honor men, our society doesn't run as smoothly as possible.

Homes are broken. You know, families are destroyed. You know, people grow up just like crazy when we don't really walk in God's design. And one thing that I found out, not just through our own life, is our mothers are the first people to teach us about womanhood. Teach us about how to interact with the opposite sex. Teach us how to honor women. You know. And so depending on what kind of mother you have, it really, like, and what's crazy is everybody say, like, a lot of times you marry somebody that's similar to your mother.

Like you're like, you married your mom. You're so much like my mom is scary. You know? And so like I don't think it's a coincidence that I naturally was gravitated towards you for a particular week. Because that's what I grew up with somebody like you. It's attachment theory. Yeah, attachment theory. I grew up with somebody like like you my whole life.

And so of course that's why I was attracted to her. Everybody like, all the dudes in our little friend circle when we were friends were scared of you. I was like, why y'all scared of her? I love her. Because you were my mama, you know what I'm saying? Jesus. And so all the good things about my mom. mom, you know, made me attracted to you, but my mom didn't all have all good qualities.

Right. And so those things, you know. You were attracted to that too. I was attracted to that too because a little context with attachment theory is basically this idea that in relationships, friendships, but primarily in like, you know, romantic, intimate relationships, you are naturally driven towards and attracted to relationships that feel familiar. And so it's like the way I show up in the world, your mother is quiet, I'm quiet. She's moody, I'm moody. She's stuff like that. She's a fighter.

I'm not. Her hip's big in the mind. But, you know, like personality-wise, there's a lot of similarities. And so it's like when you saw me, it felt like home. Yeah. Even if there were negative things, it still felt like home. Yeah. Like it's not, it wasn't a challenge that you were unfamiliar with.

It was something that you were already, you already knew how to navigate that because of, and that's good and bad. And I want to just say, too, you know, I don't want to speak about all men like we're monolith, right? I think that we are, you know, complex. Complex and nuanced beings just like women, you know, and I think. I'm listening. I think society tries to paint. It's right there.

Men are like, they're just simple. And women are complex. It's like, no, we're all complex. I think it just, I think our complex. looks different. But I do think what I've seen in the past is men who are not properly nurtured don't really grow up in an affinity for women like they should. Okay. And so a lot of times when I'm walking with a dude or even just giving a dude advice and I'm seeing like you're really harsh with your wife. It's like I always want to ask how was your relationship with your mom?

because there might be some underlying, like, heart issues that you just have with women in general that doesn't allow you to show up in a space with your significant other because of your relationship that you had with your mom. You know what I'm saying? I've seen that. And so I've had to walk with young dudes, like young married dudes, like, I got a lot of mommy issues and I didn't even realize it. Because you love your mama. Yes. But your mama wasn't.

nurturing your mama wounded you. And so you love your wife. And so anything that your mother, and I think I said this the last time we had this conversation, that it's a difference between your spouse wounding you and triggering old wounds in you that you never dealt with. And so it's a difference. So I think a lot of times how we show up in the world with the opposite sex is really contentional how I think how we were nurtured and how we were, you know, taken care of by our mothers. What kind of nurture do boys need? So can we talk about that episode without giving things away? Yeah.

Yeah, because I think talking about, because that episode was deep to me. Yeah. And I think like the episode, I didn't watch all the episodes. You know what I'm saying? But I think that episode was him, this young boy, he committed a crime. And when he is being evaluated by this female therapist, We see a lot of misogynistic characteristics in him. We see a lot of, like, toxic masculinity traits in him.

Like, he didn't want to appear weak. We see a lot of anger. Oh, rage. Like rage inside of this little boy. But at the same time, this overprotection of his father, who really did nurture him and gave him a lot of these misogynics, massager views or whatever, but also too, like this

devaluing of women. Like you, like, and so like, I think for me, what I saw in the episode was, man, I wondered, the first thing I wondered, because I put myself in his shoes as an 11 year old dude who at times wanted to be nurtured

and how I would show up when I would go to school, I would like boo-bo-bo-in girls. You know, especially girls who do not give me attention. And so, like, I think in that episode, he wanted so bad for that therapist to give him attention, to give him nurture, to give him, you know, care.

Affirmation. But his pride and his, like, so his ego and his male showing his views was at war with the deep neediness inside of him. That's good. It was just at war. So he's like, you have a deep, deep, deep, deep, deep desire. for love and affection for the opposite sex,

probably because you don't get it at home. But your dad told you you cannot be weak. And so what do you do with that? Yeah, you know what I don't even know if I'm answering your question. But I think that's the war that a lot of men go through. We don't, we don't like, men tell us that we don't want to be weak. But we definitely want affirmation and affection. And just like, I think every human needs that.

I think I'm curious about practically what kind of nurture boys need just because I think, you know, this is something I'm always processing through. Because when I had August versus the girls require something, I think all of our kids require nurture. But the girls, the way I nurtured them is just their desires or needs just are different than his, you know. The way he expresses his desires. It's just, I don't, it's just, boys and girls are just different. But I'm always interested in how to nurture him in such a way where he feels loved, he feels seen, he feels known and affirmed, while at the same time not coddled. Yes.

But I think and wonder if, because in a black community in particular, so many of us are training from a place of fear where it was like, we lean so much into the I don't want to baby you, I don't want to coddle you that we don't honor what they need at all. Does that make sense when I take? That makes sense. And so, yeah, I realized I didn't answer the question.

I'm sorry. No, what you gave was good though. Yeah, yeah. So I think what type of nurture little boys need is not just what you just said, but also too, I do think that obviously boys, and girls are different, right? And I think the way our sin and our anger and our aggression shows up is just different

because just God created us differently. And I think that a lot of times little boys show up with this particular type of aggression that young girls probably don't show up with, especially at an early age. And I think at that, in those moments, I think that's when they need actually like hugs and nurture them most because just like when we're older, the world is afraid of that. Yeah.

The world tries to kill that. The world tries to discipline it. The world says, stop being a bad boy. Stop doing this. But actually, you need somebody just to hug you. Because I remember the first time, you know, August is three. But I remember like, I think it was when he was one and he was going on two, the first time I saw like anger.

And really he's just hurt, frustrated, and he just needed me to hug him. And I remember the first time I hugged him when he lost his temper. And I remember him taking a deep breath like, oh. And I was like, man, I got a little emotional. I didn't cry.

I got a little emotional inside because I'm like, I don't think people did this to me ever. It was just like, like, you're a bad little boy. Yeah. But it's like, no. Or they affirm it. Yeah. Look at him.

Being manly. Yeah. But it's just like, no, I'm actually trying to process all of the emotions in the way that God created me. I just don't know how. And so I need, I need nurture. I need a hug. I need to feel like I'm seeing. You see that I'm angry.

You care that I'm angry. I feel safe. And I know at that moment he felt safe with me. And he calmed down. You know what I'm saying? And so I think that like because girls, they might cry instead of throwing a dinosaur at their sister. You know what I'm saying? And president keeps doing it.

this because when he gets mad he's like author yeah he's just like he's just like it's like what is that but like but i do think the boys need the type of nurture that will help them develop an emotional um an emotional maturity at an early age i think that's i think that's one of the things that we need we need to know how to properly assess the way we feel how to to categorize why we feel it. And we need to know that we are not going to be judged because, you know, we're mad at the world right now. And I think that's the type of nurture we need.

And I also think that men desperately need their mothers to, like, to, like, love them well. Okay. Yeah, because I do think that the love from a mother just, Because when I see young dudes now, they just don't really know how to interact with the opposite sex. And so I think having a good mother is just, I think it's just very, very important. I want to dig into this because I guess what is it about mothering that can help a man be a good one or have integrity? You know what I'm saying? Like, is it?

Yeah, I think we, I think they need, I think we need both. I think we need father and mother, but I do think that a lot of times when you see men, I think, because I think a mom can coddle their son too much. Yes. And you just. Yeah, I think it's a lot of wives that are in difficult marriages

because their husbands weren't trained on how to take care of themselves. Yeah, but for me, I didn't grow up with my dad, but I grew up with a mom who gave me tough love, but did not, like, Like the way I honor women was solely because of her. Like the way I showed up with women that solely because of her. I tell you this story all the time when this girl that I was talking to in high school came to my door and bought me all these gifts.

And my mama embarrassed that crap out of me. She said, my son is not no jiggle-o. She said, she said, he's supposed to be buying you stuff. She said, she said, go take it all back and go buy you something for yourself. Good job, Pam. She said, don't buy my son nothing. And I said, bring it over later. I yelled out the window.

But she taught me how to value women from her early age. So even when I was in the world being sinful, when I became a Christian, a lot of her, even though she didn't raise me up in a Christian home, a lot of her, you know, instilling because she did not want her husband, her son to do what men did to her. And so she was just like gave me a, she taught me the value of honoring women. And I think that's just really, really key about especially how we show up with the opposite sex. Now, I do think that men also play a big role in that. I think, but the men, particularly like dads, teach sons and young boys what they think about themselves. Because you're the first person, you're the first man that I see myself in. And so I think both both mom and dad play crucial roles in that.

I want to phrase this question well. I remember reading an article maybe five or six years ago that I told you about. That was very interesting. It wasn't a Christian article. But it was making this connection between how a lot of black men in particular do not grow up with the freedom to express. male affection to other men, apart from like sports. You know, like sports is like, hey, you know, da, da, da, da.

But how they think that that actually plays a part in them being kind of starved of affection and therefore only giving all of their desire for affection into sexual practices. And the article was saying, like, what would happen to the way men use their bodies if they were hugged by their dads more? if they were just hugged by their dads. Yeah. And so I guess that's my question to you is that how do you think, how different, what difference would it have made if you experience healthy,

pure, safe, male affection? Man, I think I would have been a different type of emotional being. Like, I think, I think male affection is so important. It's so important. I remember the first time a friend of ours told us that he went to some country, and the men held hands. And the men laid their head on each other's shoulders. They would never, ever. I'm going to say this.

I'm not there yet. But I love the- That's what John did to Jesus. Yeah. I love the freedom. You respect it. But yeah, I respect it. You know, and I'm not there because I just didn't grow up in that car.

I do think that culture matters and I do think every culture is different. Every culture doesn't need to be the same. But I do think that it's a lot to learn from cultures like that. Because there is, it's way bigger than physical touch. I think that's what we have to realize. It is, it is a freedom that allows us to interact with just other human beings in a way that just makes our life better. Okay, explain that. Because I think it's just binding to always be worried about do I look mainly or not. How can you truly, truly walk in love if you're consistently worried about if you look like a man? That sounds stressful. Because manhood is a calling. This is what I told people in my real the other day. I said one of the biggest issues I have with society is when people say, be a man. You're not being like a man.

No, God made him a man. Now you can help him to be more of a man, but don't tell him that he's not something that God created him to be. And I think a lot of times men are just afraid to walk in who they are. And this is the reason why our relationships are jacked up because society puts so much pressure on us to look like, I can't not be a man. That's who God.

I'm actually a man. But I can't actually be a man because I'm so. consumed of not looking like one. And I think that God wants us to be free. Because when we are free with our wives, with our children, everything is just better. Am I making sense? Yeah, you are. And so I think that- I'm picking up what you're putting down. Yeah, I think that God just wants us to be free. You said if you experienced male affection, you would be a different emotional beast. Why did you say, Why emotional? Because I think

everybody is emotional but I think that the way we handle our emotions look different depending on how we were raised and so even in my poem Who Gets a Black Man permission to feel I said it took two years into my marriage for my wife to see me cry once

and when she did I thought I failed her I thought she doesn't need a broke a weak man in the house at this time and that's what I thought but how much healthy what our marriage would have been sooner if I knew how to be honest with my emotions earlier. It took a long time for us to have real transparent conversations that would have help my marriage light years ago if I knew how to just be comfortable.

And so what if I had that? I thought if I had a father, especially a man that I looked up to, that wasn't afraid to to hug me and kiss me and say, I love you. I probably would have cried in front of the first week I would have cried in front of you. I'm broke. I'm hurt. I'm hurt, wife. Can I lay in your bosom?

I would have said something like that, you know what I'm saying? But I didn't have that. You know what I'm saying? And so I was afraid because I just, it was never modeled to me, you know? And so I think, I think men, you know, need that. And I think just talking about Jesus, I think Jesus shows us. And I think this is the reason why, you know, a lot of dudes, not a lot of dudes, every dude needs Jesus.

Because I said this before, you know, around a time when I wrote that poem and I put it out into the world, I was like, man, men are really broken. And I wrote that poem for black men, but men from all races wrote me. Like, white dudes was like, I know I'm not black, but this poem wrecked my soul. And one of the reasons why I wrote it, one, I was going through therapy at the time because you said I need therapy over and over again. So I finally went. I realized that I was a broken dude.

And then also, too, I read when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, and that really, really spoke to me, that when Lazarus died and Jesus told them that, you know, his sickness would not lead to death because he knew that he was going to raise him from the dead. When he arrived in Bethany, I thought that it was so, I don't know, I read that story so many times, but I felt like the Holy Spirit made it stick out to me that Jesus. came there with the sole purpose of raising this man from the dead, but he still had the emotional intelligence to weep with him first. Like, because if it was me, I'm, I, I tried to put myself in my, in Jesus' shoes. I was like, if I had the power to raise this man from the dead,

I would not cry in front of all these people. I would just be like, watch this. Yes. Get up. But I think that Jesus shows us like great emotional intelligence that even though he was about the raiser from the dead and make everybody happy, that he still wasn't afraid to sit inside of his emotions, to cry with them, to weep with them first. And that stuck out to me, and that showed me that like, man, maybe, I think God at that moment was like, Preston, you have not seen emotions lived out in front of you. But I want you to know that that's how I want you to lead your family. I want, I want you to lead your family. I want not just financially, not just all of these things, but they need your emotional leadership.

And so that was just a challenge for me early on in my fatherhood, in my Christian walk, and my marriage. And I think God is still working on me, obviously, but it's important. I think what I'm anticipating is men listening to this and identifying with, yes, I am an emotional creature. I have a lot of feelings that I don't express. And I can imagine that many of them feel anxiety at the possibility that if they express this emotion to a spouse or to a friend, it won't be stewarded well. Yes, that's a huge thing. So my question then is if a man has the courage to cry or has the courage to say, you know, that.

Because it's easy to say I'm mad when really you hurt, right? So when they develop the courage to be all that they are out loud, what are some responses? to a man's emotional vulnerability that should be avoided. Yeah, yeah. I remember when the first time, I think it was not the first, it was the first

couple times I cried in front of you, and I hated it, and you was like, you're just being human. And that was so comforting to me. Like, you just reminded me of my humanity.

And it was simple, but it was, it's It spoke to me. And then when I started to go to therapy, and my therapist said, Preston, grief is a gift from God that you are afraid to receive. I was like, wow.

You're right. Yeah. And I just remember I started to mourn and I remember crying. I started to cry a lot and I started to cry a lot in front of you. And I remember I cried in front of you one time and I just felt all this anxiety

like, okay, she said you were human, but she's going to get tired of this. Yeah. She's going to get tired of this eventually. Like, she's going to be like, okay, I need a man. All right, Bucco. All right, Bucco, there's too many tears. Rill it in, reel it on in. Go chop some wood.

I don't know what you was going to say. You know, and you never did. And I think that, not just men, but I think all of us, we need consistency. And so I think that men need, not to just be invited in the space, but when they're in that space, they don't want to feel like, okay,

there's you again doing this. And I think men need that because I realize because I realized that when I felt comfortable with crying, I had like back up cry. Jesus, yeah. That I need to get out.

I needed, I needed, I, like, it was like, okay, I'm learning literally how to feel in front of people. Jesus, yeah. I'm learning. learning this. And so like it was just kind of like, it was backup. And so I needed that that freedom to know that like, I'm not judged in this space. I'm loved in this space. You still think that I'm a man in this space. You still respect me because respect is so important to men. I don't

think that people understand like how much respect is so important. And so I think if a man doesn't feel respected, he's never going to open up to you. And, and I just want to say, I want to scare people, but you don't want to, like, how you respond is so important because if a man closed back up, it ain't no telling if he might open back up. Yeah, the Lord will have to do it. Yeah, the Lord will have to do something, like open up, son.

Yeah, I think, I'll just speak for me, I think a big part of my ability to manage your emotional expression is you don't show it often. And so I think when you do, it's like, oh, this is, This is deep. Like, it got, it, I'm broken.

No, I'm saying. Like, we, it has to be, you don't wear your heart on, you don't wear your emotions on your sleeve. You get what I'm saying? So it has to be actually a big deal when it comes out. So it feels important.

But I think, I think really one of the basic things I attempt to carry is good theology. Mm-hmm. Because I think it is bad theology. If and when a man shows emotion, you come to the conclusion. that that means weakness, that that means anything other than him being a whole human being, right? And I think because I spent so much time advocating for men with same-sex desires

who developed them out of people saying he was acting like a girl because he had emotional expressions, I think me advocating for that for years also trained me to be like, no, anytime I see a man be emotional, I want to affirm your self. still a man. I want to affirm you are still strong. Or even if you are weak, okay, you should be. We got this treasure in jars of clay. And the fact that we live

under the lordship of a Christ who is in fact emotional. We have a Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit can be grieved. Right? Like the Godhead has feelings. Yeah, it's good. So good. We have bad theology if we like are just mean and dishonor I think men when they're emotional.

I think, and this, I think this is for the men who might be listening, right? Because I do think when it comes to emotions, it's typically two type of man. I know it's probably more, but I'm talking about this two type. Right? It's the man who kind of like didn't grow up, like in a space when a home where his emotions kind of put on display. So he doesn't know how to, that kind of like me. But then you have the men in the body of Christ.

very comfortable with their emotions. They're very comfortable with crying. That exists. They're very comfortable with, you know, one thing that I want to challenge men who might be listening like me is to don't be afraid to move towards men like that. Because in this season of life, I have both. I have men who are godly who grew up like me,

but I have men in my life who are like a CD, who when he first came into my life, life, he weirded me out. Yeah, CD will hug you and I mean, not hug me, but just cry and like rub my back while he's crying. It's like, bro, why are you rubbing

my back, Bucco? Like, it was just like, bro, like, why are you touching me? And I know you not, G-A-Y. I know you not. Spelling it is crazy. I'm not trying to offend anybody. I just know you not. I know you love your wife.

Right. But you just different. in that way. And then one time he, like, grabbed the back of my head and he was just like, bless him, Lord. And he was hugging, and he was rubbing. I said, boy, if you don't get your gnarly fingers throughout my hair. It was, I'm telling you, it weird. Well, Citi is Haitian. I don't know how much that's a factor. It's just he didn't grow up in Chicago and Roseland all the stuff. But one of the things that, like, really ministered to me deeply, because even me as a woman, emotions are not, I'm not the biggest fan of either.

Right. And so I'm often like watching people who who are free with them and learning from it. And I won't say who, but we had a situation where somebody had recently lost somebody that was important to them. And CD went over to that person and held them and the person just cried in his arms. And all he did was just hug him. And I was, but it was like he didn't preach to him. he didn't, like, I think And he cried too. Yeah, like, it was like he felt his feelings with him

while giving space for that person who was actually a very masculine kind of cat to, like, cry. And I was just like, oh, I said, that's his gift. Yes. It was so... His emotional sensitivity and awareness is a gift to the body. And what's

crazy is we just introduced CD to that person that day. Oh, yeah. And C.D. walked up to this man And like he knew that he just lost somebody close to him. And these two big men just, just cried. And I'm like, this is powerful.

But what people don't realize is that kind of emotional care keeps people from sin. Absolutely. And so that's what I was going to say that men like who grew up or are afraid to show their emotions in the body of Christ when you see a man like that, don't be afraid to move to like, like don't be afraid to move like to move like to move. towards them. Because it's great benefits in moving towards them because they teach us something about our emotional state that we need to learn. And I think that God wants to love us through men like that in the body of Christ.

And I have that with CD with Ray Orlin, you know, men like tender men who aren't afraid. And I also think that even there might be some men out there who are tendered like that, but who are afraid to do life with other men like me. It's like, don't be afraid to actually move towards men like me because I think, man, the emotional growth of men will grow tremendously if we have healthy men that know how to, like, deal with their emotions in that way. I have to say this, though.

What happened? Okay. So I think we have spoken very positively about masculinity, as it relates to emotions and all the stuff. But I'm just going to read a verse and I want you to speak into it. Okay. This is Paul. He says, be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.

I quote that because in the same way that it can be unhealthy to not honor, the fact that you're a whole human being with emotions, it also, there is an element of, okay, sometimes, I, now, like you got to...

For sure. Not shake it off. I ain't trying to, but you got to, you got to do what you got to do. So I guess what is the balance of Paul literally says, act like a man.

I do think that God wants us to be able to feel our emotions when we feel it. I don't think that God, that God wants to raise up men who wants us to be affected by the wind. Every time the wind blows, we got attitude. Every time something don't go our way, we cannot be functional. Every time something don't go our way, we can't show up in the space without an attitude. Just because you puffing and puffing, you still got, that's still emotional.

That's still emotional. And I do think that God wants to raise up a generation of men, in the Christian community who are just stable because our emotions, you feeling your emotions does not mean that you're unstable. Okay. You feeling your emotions is so that you can be stable for everybody else. Explain. Teach it, preach it.

So like, exeat, exegete, if, if, articulate. If I don't know how to sit with my grief, I can't be stable for somebody else in their grief. if I don't know how to like sit in my pain I don't actually know how to be stable for somebody else and somebody else's pain and so God doesn't want us to be affected and wooed like and just like a piece of paper

just like you go wherever your emotions lead you no so tell me how have you because you're learning this right but how have like how are you learning what is what is the process of learning how to be stable Yeah, I think for me

One, I think Our relationship with the Lord And healthy men Needs to be in order Because I need to have a solid Foundation with Jesus I need to find my security in him First and foremost

Not in my wife Not in the affirmation of people Because when I do When my wife is unstable That's going to make me feel unstable It's going to make her feel unstable for sure. But if I have a relationship with the Lord

that's stable and I have healthy relationships with other men, when my wife is stripping, I'm not, I'm not shaking by it. I can be affected by it,

but I'm not shaken by it to the point where we just both in this boat drowning. Yeah, we're both emotional. We both emotional. And so I don't think that God wants us to hide our emotions from my wives.

But we went through this. Where at times, I got way more emotional in the situation that I needed to. And you told me I don't feel safe right now because you're not acting like yourself. And I had to shake, I had to be honest and say, you know what? I'm not. You wasn't, what you wasn't telling me was I don't want you to be emotional. Yeah.

What you were telling me was, I need a man because if I don't have a man to be stable, I don't know how to get out of this. Because truthfully, we don't like saying this out loud. but scripture calls women the weaker vessel. Yes. Right. And obviously, I am a woman who isn't fragile, you know, or a doormat and all the stuff. Yet at the same times, I do have big emotions.

I have particular hormones that show up in all kinds of weird, strange ways. I didn't have four babies and pre-partum and postpartum, not depression, but yeah, like there's always the potential for a level of, emotional instability in me. Yeah. And it was affecting our marriage when I felt like you could not be, like I needed a stronghold. I needed a place to lean, like, because you don't want me to always go to my friends for it. Yeah, yeah.

You know what I'm saying? You don't want me to always go into, like, if you want me to turn to you in these moments, in these seasons, then I need you to be a little bit more stert. And that's fair. think that can be a challenge for a lot of men to say, I feel this. And it's like, no, I don't, but you wasn't, what you were not saying was don't feel the way you feel. Yeah.

But I think what you were saying is don't allow your feelings to make you in a way where I don't feel like I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can lean on you to help me get out of this. Yes. Because what? Because, because, because, because I can, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I can be an emotional being, but still a life right for you. Mm. Right.

But when I'm just so deep in my emotions, I can't. And so I think it's my call. It's my mandate to be your covering, to be your support, to be your helper. And I think God wants us to be in tune with our emotions while at the same time being stable for the people around us. And I think that's what leadership is. And I think a big part of you continually being able to find stability, if I could be honest. I feel like this isn't a big deal. it was some of the things that made me feel insecure

was when every time you were affected by something you had to share with me immediately. Yeah, for sure. Where I was like, can you go process this with a man? Sometimes, you know what I'm saying? Because I think women have to do that too. I think there are sometimes where you are feeling your feelings in very fresh and big ways

where if you are always expressing every time you are provoked or triggered or irritated, to your spouse, they get weary. And so sometimes you need to have a sister, an elder, somebody that you can process these things through so that when you do bring, like if it becomes something that I have to bring up, at least it's synthesized. It's lost some if it's bite. Yeah.

So then when I'm bringing it to you, it's not just me dumping and venting, but it's me trying to move us in a direction of health. And that's also fair. And that's something that we, I'm glad we worked doing our marriage because I think, I think what that just shows. is leaders, I think they should process their emotions, but the way we process our emotions to the people that we're leading has to look different. It just has to look different. I think a wife just has a freedom to express things freshly, you know what I'm saying?

And I think that we have to determine, I think, where our wives are. I don't do that. What? No, you don't do that. Yeah, you got to bring it out of me, actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't process it for seven days in 40 nights. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You kind of go inside yourself or whatever.

But what I'm saying is I think when I was just coming to you, if I'm just being honest, it was just a lot of emotion that I didn't take to the Lord. And I wasn't fully stable like the Lord wanted me. And I was looking to you to bring comfort. To stabilize me instead of looking to the Lord. And that's just kind of not how a marriage should be. that stability should come from the Lord. And so when I come to you, it's a conversation

that's well thought out that's processed, you know, and now we can actually have a real conversation while I'm not consistently triggering and wounding you. I think that's just something the man has to learn. How has male friendship served your maturity as it relates to being a man, a husband, a father, a friend, a leader, an apologist, all the stuff.

It's huge, man. It's really, really huge. You know, I think I have older men in my life for just different areas of my life. You know, I have Brian Dodd to just, I think, you know, my longtime discipller, I mean, he just, he reminds me of who I am often. And, you know, 10, 15 years ago when God first called me to ministry, evangelism or whatever, Sometimes you can lose sight of that, but I need that person to just remind me, like, you're a good husband, you're a powerful evangelist, you're a great teacher, all these things, and don't give up. Like, he just always encouraging me. But as it pertains to leadership, I have, you know, a friend and an older brother, Eric Mason.

He's just really great at equipping leaders. He just really, like, he just knows leadership, and he's really great at communicating leadership. that. And so, and then like Ray Orlin, when I'm going to deep emotional stuff, he just knows how to process emotions in such a spiritual, healthy way. And so I just have like, you know, and then CD like with marriage stuff. Like, he's just really great with marriage stuff and like knowing how to like, like, he's the one who told me. Stop coming to your wife about everything. Yeah. Like, it was him. He was like, come to me. You know what I'm saying? And so I just have, I just have that. I think that, that, that leadership and that mentorship and that friendship,

you know, Philip Anthony Mitchell, like when I'm going through things, my pastor, like we have really, really, really deep conversations. We won't talk for two weeks and then when we talk,

we will go so deep, so fast. And I feel like I could just, I'm good for the rest of the month. Yeah. And so I need that. Yeah. You know, I need that. I brought that up because one thing you've said before,

I'm sure you said it on this podcast, is you've talked about how, you said this a long time ago you were talking about somebody and you was like you know I don't want to hang out with him because he never talks about his wife

that's a red flag but some people might not notice that as a red flag and not realize how it cultivates something in them that the Lord might actually want them to crucify and so speak to why that's even a red flag to surround

yourself with people because that doesn't seem sinful it could be like oh he didn't think about it i'm not i'm not i'm not i'm not going to necessarily say it's not sinful it's automatically sinful i'm not going to say that that's but that's what i'm saying i think we look for the glaring red flags that's a subtle one yeah i will say that not just men but people are going to talk about what they value the most they just they just are you know what i'm saying but also too what I've learned just walking with older men, younger men, doing life with men. Like, there's something about how a woman grounds a man and encourages a gawley woman, grounds a man and encourages a man to walk in integrity.

And, like, I'll say this, I always tell you this. I always see the true nature of a man when his wife come around. I see what kind of dudes you are. I see like, because like when you're significant others around, you just, you know you can't hide in front of him. Yeah. So you ain't going to be acting a certain way because somebody around you who knows you intimately.

And so when a man comes and he loves his home, he loves his wife, in my experience, those are the men who have the best character. That's good. They just, their character is just great. when you see that their, the number one value is their home. Now, when they come around,

they talk about ministry, money, like everything except your wife. I don't even know our name. I don't know your wife's name, bro. It's been a year. Why don't I know about your family? Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

So, so, so, for me, it's just all, it's always telling, you know, like, you know, like, if you don't value your home, you're not going to value me properly. If you don't value me properly. If you don't, value the woman that you lay next to,

you can't really be my homie like that. Like, you can't, like, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want to be around men, even if you're going through issues, you adore your wife. Yeah.

Like, if you, if you, if you ain't, if you ain't like that, like, she must, she had to be insane or she's not, you know, like, it's really hard for you to deal with her, but you still should love her. But what I'm hearing, though, that's interesting is I'm not even hearing you talk about it. as just merely protection for your soul.

It sounds like a respect thing to you. I feel like what I'm hearing is like, oh, I actually don't respect you. No, I don't respect a lot of men who don't love their wives and their homes. Why? I just can't. Why?

I'm trying not to be harsh. I'm trying not to be harsh. I don't think, not going to call you not a real man. because that's harsh. You just said that's bad to do. That's bad to do. But I don't think that you get,

I can all the way view you as a trustworthy man. And I just think that our wives and our children are too precious for you not to value. Like our society depends on how much we love our homes, the health of the children. church the way women show up when i when i see young women coming around i just can't all the way be mad at them when they don't respect women they don't respect women because men like you you mean respect men i'm sorry respect men because of you know men like you like and so i think i just want to be around men who who are trying to just to make jesus name known

in the earth, not just by the ministry that we do, but our ministry starts at home. You know what I'm saying? And so, like, I think it's backwards to respect the man who can speak well on stage, but we don't care about how he loves his wife at the crib. I think that's completely backwards. Because anybody can have a rhetorical gift.

Not everybody can respect their wife. Not everybody can love their children. That takes to actually the work of the Holy Spirit to do that. And so this is the reason why I feel like we'd be rubbing arms with snakes. It's like, okay, I don't care. I don't care how big your platform is. What you live at? Show me, like, what your wife at?

Do she respects you? Do she honor you? What she say about you? Because everybody loves the way you talk. Yeah. But are you abusive? Oh, God. Like, that's what I want to know.

And so, like, for me, I just don't, I don't even do life with people who I don't, I don't know how they rock. Let's say. At the crib. Let's say someone is listening. And because we have an episode. don't know when it's airing or if it's aired about when you're struggling with loving your home. Let's say there's a man listening who's like, you know, that's me. Like, I don't be talking about my wife like that.

I don't talk about my children like that. Like, I'm married, but what is your, how do they move? Because it's flesh. But I guess what is your encouragement? What is your challenge? What is your, like, how does the gospel speak to that? Yeah. And I just want to say, I don't, I don't.

want people to hear me saying, oh, I got to go around pressing talking about my wife for him to think that I'm a Macaulay, man. I'm not judgmental like that. Yeah. That's not what I'm saying. I am saying that it is something that I look for, and it is something that, you know, makes me feel secure when I'm around the man. But I think for men who struggle with that, it might be a myriad of reasons why. Maybe you're not the most talkative man.

Maybe you don't like to talk about your business, yada, yada, yada. I do think that if you do life with somebody and your intimate with somebody, you should talk about your wife eventually. Like I should know about your family. But I think, you know, you have to ask yourself as a man, what is it in me that doesn't make me feel safe to be vulnerable to be vulnerable with other people about my home? Why am I hiding? like if there is some anger, some resentment in my heart for my wife, from my family or whatever. And I would just encourage that man to get around other healthy men who've been down the road that you've been through. You've been down or whatever, that you're going through, whatever, and ask the man to help you.

You know, I have men all the time come, you know, come up to me and say, man, I'm newly married. and I get frustrated and I don't want to become like my father can you help me and I think that humility goes a long way because I think men just need help you know because when you see a man that's 40

and he's in the church and he'll move a certain way with his wife he was a young man one day he was young one day and in his moldable stage and somebody just didn't come and mold him and so it's a reason why I don't want to rock with him right now when he 40

Because when he was 21, nobody came and said, you know, I've been down in the road you're going through. Like, let me help you, let me walk with you. And so you don't want to just grow up and, you know, and get older and be like, yeah, my wife relationship is just sleep in a basement and my kids don't respect our marriage and yada, yada, yada. And I'm just hanging around my guys because I want to get away from my family. You don't want to be that man. And so I think just getting around other healthy men who's done really the hard work of going to therapy, loving their wife, like Christ loved the church, bearing with him. her, sanctifying her with the word, getting through hard things. Because I think that's what I've done and has helped me tremendously.

I think in closing, I would be intrigued to hear how the man Jesus has influenced the man, Preston. Because we talk about Christ as he is, which is God in flesh, right? but Jesus was male, is male, seated at the right hand of God, he is embodied, he is a human being and God. And so how has Jesus, Jesus is masculinity, I guess, influenced and encouraged your own? It's influenced me a lot, you know, not just the story I told you about with Lazarus, but just when I would see Jesus deal with the disciples, It just deal with the Pharisees, they deal with people. One, I saw a particular type of security in him

when I read the scriptures. It wasn't as if he didn't feel emotions, but he didn't allow his emotions to not make him do what God was calling him to do. So I think when I look at Jesus' manhood, I see a real security. I don't see a security, like a fake type security,

that men try to walk in or insecure. Like he was secure and who he was. And I think it all hinges on his relationship with his father. And so like the fact that, you know, when John the Baptist is baptized in Jesus and the clouds opened up and the father says, you know, this son, my son, Jesus, this is the one I'm well pleased. He said that when Jesus was 30 before he started his missionary journey. So Jesus hadn't done any missionary work yet. He ain't healed nobody from blindness. He ain't raised the dead, nothing.

But the father loved him just because he was a son. And so one, I think that just reminds me that God loves me just because I'm a son. And so I can be secure like Jesus was with the father because I'm just loved. I think I just have to remind myself with that. But also, two, the way Jesus was able to just be effective. and so many, like, Paul was way different, not Paul, but Peter was way different than John. And John was way different than Matthew, you know,

and the way he dealt with the woman at the well. Like, he was able to deal with everybody because he was just a secure, loving man, you know? And so for me, I just, I like, I always ask myself, like, how can I be all things, all people kind of like, what Paul was, when I'm just secure in my manhood and who I am, and Jesus.

And just remembering that I'm loved. I think that's, I think everybody, I think everybody can function well in their manhood, in their womanhood when we realize that we're first loved by a holy and righteous God.

And so just remember that I'm loved by God. Always helps. Any texts, any books, any sermons you want to recommend? Manhood restored by Eric Mason is a really good book. It's one of the few manhood books that I've read.

I've put this in a show notes before. I think we did. But for husbands who want to learn how to be better husbands, this momentary marriage by John Piper is a great book. I wrote that book and like immediately say, I'm going to propose to Jackie, because I felt like I was prepared. Oh, sweet.

And it's the context of the proposal that. Well, people know that. What? We got into it in Trinidad. Oh, yeah. You text me. He was like, I love you. Yeah, yeah.

That book challenged me. He's so much like cries. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And yeah, I think that's it. Those two books. Cool. Well, you're a good man.

Bye y'all. Thanks, but. With the Perry's is produced by the Perrys, with support from Amanda Reed and Channing McBride, video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley, edited by the team at Tread Lively, artwork by Hop and Music by Swoop. Thank you for listening.

we got.