With The Perrys - Becoming like Jesus with Matt Chandler: Part 1

Episode Date: April 27, 2026

After more than two decades leading a church – and through his own faith journey, too – Pastor Matt Chandler says confidently that, “Come what may, God is at work.”  In this conversation on sanctification, Matt, Jackie and Preston explore the Beatitudes of Matthew 5, not as a checklist of spiritual goals but a portrait of a person Jesus is creating as we mature in Christ. The Christian life isn’t about wins and losses; it’s about staying tethered to Jesus through the highs and lows. Keep saying yes to Him, and He’ll use it all to form you. This is part 1 of a 2-part conversation. Check out Matt Chandler’s new book, “Becoming Like Jesus: The Everyday Journey to Living a Life of Holiness” (releasing this week, April 28): https://www.amazon.com/Becoming-Like-Jesus-Everyday-Holiness/dp/1400344301  Tim Keller sermon Jackie mentions: http://podcast.gospelinlife.com/e/principles-of-christian-growth-part-1/ Scripture References Matthew 5:3-12 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, Saints and Aids. I hope you're doing good, whatever good is. That wasn't as melancholy as your other opening. I am trying my best to be hopeful. We take it. That was like a, you know, a bee. I cried a lot this morning to get it all out of me. Oh, wow.

It's fine. Ain't nothing wrong with a little tears. Yeah, it's, you know, something I discovered the other day? What it is. This was yesterday. Y'all like how I said what it is? Yeah. So honestly speaking, me and Preston are just in a very interesting season of life.

And so where things are hard, complex, complicated, all the stuff. And so, like, I randomly stumbled on, you know, like, when you, like, are, like, praying and you don't know where to go. It's like, do I go to Psalms? Do I go to Matthew? Do I go to Revelation? I randomly was like, I'm going to just go to Chronicles. And so I just turned to Chronicles chapter 20, randomly.

and it's talking about Jehoshaphat and the King of Israel. Don't name your kids that. That's what I just thought. Like, what's my name-day baby, Jehosephat? Come in Jehosephat. I think you're going to make a really hard time for them in elementary school. But anyway, I read the nasty word. I read about the man in the King of Israel.

Long story short, eventually, there's all this stuff happening and all these things. And there's a lot of stress. And they simply say to God, we don't know what's going on. We don't know what to do, but we're going to keep our eyes. on you. And I said, that's it. I'm like, that's the thing. Very simple. When you're going through stuff. I love the Bible. The Bible gets such simple, but yet profound wisdom. That's why we know the book is alive. Tell me about it. Amen. I want to switch subjects real quick. Y'all know the last, y'all

the last episode before last, Jackie was like, like, joaned in my house shoes. While I for Valentine's Day, she gave me a little care bag. I did. And she got me some new house shoes, y'all. Because y'all was roasting me for a good week about my house shoes. They were horrific. They were horrific. No, I think you made them. You had no arch support. I think.

Walking through this house flat footed. I think you. I think you made them. You are almost 40. You need arch support. You made them seeing worse than they really were. They're really good. No, they were worse.

These are nice, though. I like these better. I use those house shoes. And that was just, that's intermediate. That was just, I was at Target. I said Valentine's Day is coming up. We don't really do big things with the Valentine's Day. Because they don't even fit and you're still wearing them.

They're still wearing them. They're straight. stretch so they kind of fit now. Yeah, we don't have to make it work. That's the thing. I kind of felt the way, though. We make enough money. I kind of felt the way I said,

Jackie bought this for her, not for me, because she hated my other shoes. I just said you needed art support. But welcome to our basement, Mr. Pastor, evangelist, prophet, teacher, apostle, a revivalist. I think you're halfway charismatic.

I don't know. Matt Chandler. Yeah, I'm more than halfway. Okay. More than halfway. Hello. You're the only person About the costals

You're the call myself You're the only person They're like laugh Doing our banter Everybody else kind of like Does this You was like you didn't care I was in

I was a couple times I wanted to jump in there But I was like It ain't time yet Let me just wait till they Cue it over here It's an honor to have you

Do you have house shoes? I do have house shoes What they look like? They look like Lauren She used to say They do like house shoes What they look like

Lauren? Yeah Those loafer They look like loafers Oh they like leather No. Swade. And do they clunk? They don't clunk. There's a hard bottom, but they don't clunk. So you hear the hard bottom.

No, I'm light on my feet, sis. I don't know what that woman's saying over there. She'd be hating on my house shoes. No, because the way of you started clunking through here, I would be like, we got it. So I got some good arch support in it apparently. Praise God. Well, we thank you for being here. Matt, what should, I don't even going to lie to you. I don't remember the title of your book. I love you. I don't remember. You're fine. It's called Becoming Like Jesus. About everyday beliefs. I remembered.

Thanks, Preston. Thank you. It's fine. I don't need you remember it. We'll have some graphics or something. Yeah, I didn't even go front with you. I said I was crying this morning. You got to be okay.

Okay, but coming like Jesus, obviously, the fancy term for that would be like sanctification. Yeah. Before we started, you said you feel ready to communicate this now. Why? Well, I've been the pastor of the same church for almost a quarter of a century now. I've been with the same people. people, like one of my favorite parts of my role right now is that some of those like wild and out 20-somethings that became Christians my first couple of years are now married kids, baptizing their kids, having catechized them in and around the truth of God is and what he's accomplished. And so to be able to watch the seasons, to be able to watch the highs and lows produce, um, is a privilege and something I've fallen in love with.

It's one thing to kind of know it in my own life. I've had a lot of wins, I've had a lot of losses, been in the paper for both. And it's one thing to experience the goodness of God in the valley and on the mountain and in the mundane, just in the Tuesday. but then to watch it play out in hundreds of lives, thousands of lives over a multi-decade experience, has really just given me all the confidence in the world

that come what may God is at work. And so I wanted to write on it. I don't like that it seems to be a gap right now in the evangelical imagination. Like even reading stories of deconstruction and they're not all this, but a great deal of them are, you know, I gave my life to Jesus and life was still hard. Yeah, yeah. And I'm always just like, what gospel did you hear?

Yeah. Like who preached this to you? Who confused you like this? Like Jesus is just right there going, hey, in this world, you're going to have some trouble. Yeah. Take heart. Yeah. And he doesn't waste it, man.

So that's a long, I'll ramble, but that's, That's why I wrote the book now. I feel like I've seen it enough, confident enough. And I love it. I love the process. I was just going to say, I think what's important about that is, I think when you've seen the reality that God is with us, that God changes us, that God changes people, it means that you communicate with some measure of hope. That's right. You know, because I think in the sanctification conversation in particular, I think I've been wrestling with how despairing it can.

can be. Yeah. To feel like you're always hitting a wall when it comes to certain character flaws or always hitting a wall when it comes to certain people you're praying for. And so I think to even have a work where you have hope that's going to come through. And I think that's important. Yeah. One of the ways I try to describe it is I try to kind of expose the up-and-to-the-right metaphor as

being false. Nobody got up-in-to-the-right in the Bible. And what's up-in-to-the-right? So it's this idea that if you're graphing your spiritual growth, It's just continuing to, you're getting happier, you're experiencing more joy, you're making more money, you have more sex, you're having more, right? Everything, all your kids fall in love with the Lord by the time, you know, they're four, you know, commit to the 1040 window and kindergarten. And it's more like a horizontal coil where every high and low actually is still moving you forward. So the Christian life isn't about wins and losses.

It's about staying tethered to Jesus. whether you feel like you're winning or you feel like you're losing or everything's going your way or nothing's going your way, the call is stay tethered to Jesus, keep saying yes, and he will use all of that to form you. So even what can feel like a loss to us is still moving us forward. Like you've got a wayward prodigal child and the heartbreak of that and the pain of that. It's still moving you forward, right? When they come to know by the grace of God, Jesus, because you're playing the long, game and you wept your eyes out, then you're still being informed.

Yeah. Right? When you're healthy, be informed, when you're sick, be informed. And it might be that low part of the coil where the best work is done, not the place we want to be, but where the best work's done. Yeah, yeah, that's really good. I want to tell you something some years ago, when I first started to kind of get introduced to sound theology early on in my walk, I read your book, Exploicitius.

And I read the line in the book that made me feel away at first. I was like, this man don't know what he's talking about. Did you know this story? You shared it with me at PAO several years. I did. Because this is significant. Go ahead. Tell the people.

Yeah, yeah, because you said the foremost desire of God's heart is not our salvation, but rather the glory of his own name. And in my mind, I was like, well, God loves us to be saying. What are he talking about? You know, but then when I started to grow up my faith, I realized how true that was. And had God does everything for his glory. And my mind had to kind of be kind of reworked and be framed.

And so I guess my question is, as you know, you've been a pastor for so many years, can you talk about all the things that God has allowed to happen in your life that wasn't necessarily favorable or pleasing that ultimately now you see it happened because of his glory. Are you one of those media strategy people clicking through slides, scrolling spreadsheets? Yes. Good, this is for you. Because on Spotify, there's an audience that's different. Locked in, loyal, invested. They're called fans. Fans don't just listen to music.

They feel seen by it, like it belongs to them. So when your brand shows up on Spotify, that's who you're talking to. And you're right next to artists like me, Lizzo. So, are you ready to talk to fans? Spotify advertising. You're among fans. I mean, what had the first seven years my marriage with Lauren was absolutely brutal. Like, I can't believe this is my life brutal. And I know she's in the room.

It wasn't like she was laying in the bed next to me thinking all her childhood, all her girl, her dreams had come true. It was just rough, man. We were missing each other, two different backgrounds, two different, like ways of being brought up, two different insecurities, like everybody else, right, mashed together. Yeah. So that was humbling and brutal. And the Lord's really used that in a marvelous way, both in our own testimonies and our ability to love on people and our appreciation for what it is now because we remember when it won this. And then I had this, this is the one everybody else to remember. So then I got brain cancer in 2009. Yeah. You had a low cut. Yep. It was low, low, sis. It was as low as it's ever been. I didn't want to call you ball head.

You're fine. It's fine. There's some she bears out here in the woods. Is that what you, you're nervous about? I just remember to look something. Yeah, I had a seizure on Thanksgiving morning on 2009 in front of our three kids. Wow. Lauren had to dial 911 and they found a golf ball-sized tumor in my right frontal lobe. And then full resection of the right refrontal lobe that Friday after, a week after Thanksgiving. And then 18 months, high-dose chemo and radiation. They said I'd have two to three years to live.

And that was, well, it was 2009. So we're coming up on 17 years ago. Wow. Man, I've made foolish mistakes as a leader. And I think one of the things that I didn't know when I started ministry is the ways that I would mature as both leader and shepherd and pastor and teacher would oftentimes come at the cost of other people. I would make mistakes and hurt people and not even know I was doing it.

I'd be pure-hearted in the motive, but you just don't know what you don't know. Yeah. And then some of those mistakes became public and some of them didn't and I was able to repent quietly. So, yeah, those are some of the more significant kind of lows. Yeah. beautiful to see because when we look in the scriptures, every leader we see, we see highs and lows and lows. Yeah. You know, see highs and lows and lows and David, Paul, you know, all of these people, but God has used it all for his glory. And he's still doing the same thing in his people now.

All of us. I just want to commend you because I think that you've been a good leader publicly. I don't see you privately often. But yeah, even the humility that you walk with now is, is inspiring. You know what I'm saying? Thank you, brother. Yeah. This morning I was driving. and thinking about how I think we have a generation, like every generation that wants to be wise and wants to be godly. But I think there's this tendency to short circuit

the means by which that actually happens. You know, because I was just thinking about how, you know, I know a lot of things, you know, I read a lot of stuff. But I feel like it's actually the last year or two with difficulty that I feel like, oh, I'm getting it. You know what I'm saying? It's starting to settle because I'm being forced into a position to believe it.

It's like the Lord is putting me between a rock and a hard place. Where that stuff is just now, I can't explain it. It's just, it's settling. But I think the temptation can be to give up before the fruit really does its thing. And so I guess even in the 20 years of you pastoring, even in your life, how have you stayed tethered? Yeah, well, I think there's two things people. will be tempted to do if we think about maturing in, you know, becoming more like Jesus. The first would be to just walk. The one I see most frequently, though, in the church world is what I would

just call, and I don't think this is my term, I just don't know where I got it. I'll call spiritual bypass. And so they haven't been through it, but maybe they've read it in the text or they've read a Spurgeon quote about suffering. And what they'll try to do is, either with theological language or with Holy Spirit deliverance language, they want to bypass the going through so that they can pretend to know. And it ain't the same thing. Like to cognitively in your prefrontal cortex know that, lo, I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,

I will fear no evil for your rotten staff, protect me. It's one thing to have that verse in your prefrontal cortex. It's another thing to have walked through the valley of the shadow of death and found yourself fearing no evil because the presence of God was unique and present in a way that you had not experienced before because he ain't given you grace for what you might go through. He gives you grace for what you do go through. And so I think I often say to the men and women at the village, if you don't quit, you win. Like if you don't quit, you win. Like one day at a time and if that's too much, then one hour. hour at a time. And the promise of the Lord and the story of his character is that he will not

leave you nor forsake you, have not abandoned you. He's sworn by his own name to get you safely home. He started this. He'll finish this. But when did he say he would finish it? The coming, the coming. Which means however long you've been a Christian until you stop breathing or he returns, he's at work. So I saw this video years ago of J.I. Packer, like 80 something, like not long before he died. They were asking him just about what his faith looked like, and his whole talk was on repentance. Like, what was his 80-year-old J.I. Packer? How you, I thought he stopped repenting when he was 50.

But he was talking about being so agitated and so frustrated at his age that his mind couldn't do things and that his body couldn't do that he was still hungry to do. And that that frustration had led him into some sin. And so he had been just repenting of a sit. That's what his faith looked like. I'm like 80-year-old J.I. Packer. Yeah. Like theologian, knowing God writing.

Monster in the faith is 80. And it's like, dang it, I got to repent again. That's amazing. And I love that. I loved that moment. It helped me go, oh, yeah, I hope when I'm 80, my spirit's tender enough to be like, dang it, I'm doing it again. Yeah.

That's good. Yeah. That's good. And I think this book is for every Christian. I mean, becoming like Jesus is something that we all should strive to do, right? But in the second chapter of the book. Literally the point. Right.

Literally the point of Christianity. It's such a universal book for every believer. But in the chapter two, you talked about the beatitudes. Yeah. Which was kind of interesting for someone to kind of highlight it in the way that you did. Yeah. So I think we should go through them, you know. I love it.

And also talk about how the beatitudes help us become like Jesus. And so kind of explain what the beatitudes are. And then I guess we can talk about it. Quick question. I've never thought it's, what does beatitude mean? Like, what is that word? So a beatitude is. Are there eight characteristics of that?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're a saying, like a beatitude would be a sane. Uh-huh. And he's saying in those sains, basically. I'm making the argument in the book. Jesus didn't come to find these people. He came to make them. So Jesus doesn't like,

it ain't like a checklist or a ladder where he's showing up looking at your life going, okay, are they poor in spirit? They got mercy. No, no, no. He's come to make these people. So why I embedded the book and the beatitudes is because if you want to know where you're going,

you want to know what this actually looks like. Well, man, look at these eight things. these are the eight things Jesus is forming in you that actually make you more and more like him. And I make the argument that it's like you'll go through them over and over and over and over again, but each time you go through it'll be a little bit different and would have danced with another one of the beatitudes

to your experience. So like I've been following the Lord now for 33 years and I have learned, Blessed of the Poor and Spirit about 10,000 times. And I'm sure I've got another. lesson on being poor and spirit coming again. But each time I've learned that lesson, I've learned it a bit differently. I've absorbed it a little bit more quickly.

It's been from a, think about like turning a jewel around in your hand, a different facet of lowliness that gets me the kingdom of God. That's the promise. And so that's the beatitudes is Jesus saying, hey, this is the good work I'm going to accomplish in you. That's why it kicks it off that way. I love what you said. This is a quote in your book. My words are very small, so bear with me. It says, as helpful as helpful as checklist are, it is important to note that we should

get started by that the beatitudes are not a checklist of spiritual goals. They are not a staircase to heaven nor a performance aerobic for the super spiritual. They are a portrait of a person, a person Jesus. is forming through us a lifelong spirit and power process of sanctification. That's it. I love that. Can you break that down? What you mean about that?

Yeah, we are such a, maybe it's just Western culture. I think it is. We are a checklist, measure, how far have we come, how many steps did we get today, what's our macros, how's, I mean, we measure everything. But relationship, which is how, you're formed, the presence of Jesus, relationship. That's harder to measure. And so even the beatitudes, they feel intentionally

like it's going to be hard to grade this one. Yeah. Like how do you grade mercy? Yeah. How do you grade lowliness? How do you know you're there? Because you're going to have to go, you're going to go through it again.

You're going to have to show mercy a million times in your life in this world. Like you try to draw close and have authentic belonging with any group of people. You're going to need mercy. It reminds me in my grandmother. My grandmother, you always say, you can't be humble and proud about it. There's something there. She used to always say that. And it's like, how do you measure humility?

It's like, oh, I'm real humble now. It's like, how do you do that? Yeah, I'm the most humble man I know. Right. Yeah, that ain't going to work. You know, that's good. That's good. Well, let me read it so that we have.

in our systems. And so this is Jesus because it's the red words, even though the Bible is breathed. Oh, my God. Matthew 5, seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain, and when he sat down, his disciples came to him. And he opened his mouth and taught them saying, Blessed are the poor and spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy. Blessed are the pure and heart, for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. Blessed are those who are persecuted, ouch, for righteousness's sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and other, all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who are before you. This is the word. It's encouraging of the Lord. Amen, it is.

We use the word blessed a lot. Yeah. You know, it's a part of our Christian dialect and jargon. What is blessing exactly, you know, because I think some people read this blessed as in happy. Well, technically speaking, the word there in Greek is happy are those. It's the way it's working in the Greek, it seems like the Lord is saying, like he's giving you the objective state of who you are when you're in the process. Like, I'm seeing you.

It's the way the Lord is watching you. Slow down. I'm sorry, sis. See that one more time. Don't talk to me. Preach to us. So if you look at the Greek word, it is the Greek word for happy. but happy are those who mourn for they shall be comforted, is God, Jesus saying, here's going to be

your objective state, God's view of you in this process, in this coil of highs and lows. And I always say, I think what's in view there, this is how I write about it, I think what's in view here is not 2026 definition of happiness, but more. biblical joy. So 2026 happiness, gosh, just call it happiness over the last multi-decade, nonsensical train wreck of cultural issues, is almost all built around life circumstances. But biblical joy seems to hold regardless of life circumstances. So what you're being promised in the beatitudes. And I would say what you're being promised in Christian joy is not that, like again, I'm sounding like a broken record. It's not everything's going to go your way. It's that

God will be with you in the mess. And that the joy that you have is the presence of your creator who will not create distance from you and who presses into your, um, your, failures, your longings, your disappointments, your heartbreaks, your losses with great comfort, which is the promise to those who mourn. Why? Why do you have Christian joy when you mourn? Well, because you're being comforted. By what? The lifting of the loss, disorientation, discombobulation, heartbreak? No, you go through that. It doesn't lift. You go through. But he's with you through it. And that's the blessedness. That's the happiness.

That's the state of the soul. Can I ask the question? Is joy and emotion? I think it can be. I think it can also be a decision to focus your heart's attention and mind's devotion on what's most true. So I talk a lot in the book about reality. That part of what I'm doing as I go through the coil is I'm reacquainting myself with reality. over and over and over again,

that I'm turning my attention, turning my heart's devotion to what I believe is most true toward the one who sits at the center of reality as its defining king. And joy can be found in making that turn. And then I think the experience of joy, the oil of gladness down the beard,

occurs when you've shifted your mindset and heart affection to the one who sits at the center of reality. Yeah, because I'm sorry. Okay. Because what I hear, what you talked about a lot in chapter two and three is really perspective, having the right perspective. Because what I hear you saying, even with that is, when you think about joy, you know, having joy sometimes when you're going through something, if you have a perspective that you're

paying attention to the power of God's presence, I think, whatever you go through, that would allow you to have joy and peace and all the things. Because I think when I've been going through things, it was way easier for me to focus on what I was going through. Instead of meditating on the fact of who's with me when I'm going through it. And so I think meditating on the power of presence can help us have a different perspective. And that I have someone to trust with this. Yes. I think joy is born of that moment when, like, when I get the diagnosis, cancer diagnosis, I have three babies.

Yeah. I have a six-year-old, a four-year-old, and a six-month-old. Jesus. Where am I going with this? Yeah. Like, where am I going? Yeah. Like, am I going to this doctor who just said, we're going to poison you for the next couple of years and it's probably all you get? Where am I going? Well, I'm going to the, I'm going to the one who can hold it. Yeah. Like, he gives us that place to go, come what may. Yeah. Doesn't matter what the loss is. It doesn't matter. We have a place to go. Yeah. And one of the things I've learned in evangelism is that we're surrounded by people who ain't got nowhere to go. We're just surrounded.

Like when I started training jihitsu, those guys, and I mean, just some rough neck. I mean, some ain't right, if that's your hobby. You know? And I would just, after a roll, just be like, hey, man, I got some time set aside this afternoon to pray. I'd love to pray for you. Anything I pray for you about?

I'd have these, like, men with gauges and, like, skull tattoos on that. Start weeping in front of everybody. Tell me about their marriage. Tell me about that. They got nowhere to go. Yeah, that's real. And Christian joy is born that come what may, no matter what happens, no matter how misunderstood I am, you just walk through the beatitudes.

No, no matter how my heart is broken. No matter how much I'm longing and hungering. Like, he's there. Yeah. I've got a place to go. That's so beautiful. And that's joy is born of trust. Yeah, that's one of the two things I learned about evangelism the most is the thing that

encourage people when I used to evangelize on the streets is, letting them know who and what they were created for and them finding the place of belonging. They just wanted to know what do I belong in this world. And the fact that the Christian kind of has that sense that no matter what we go through, we still have a place. We still have a person that we can go to. It's huge. Yeah, I think it's somebody who wrestles with joy often.

Sure. You know, just being melancholy, doing all the stuff. I think what has helped me is to anticipate that sometimes you have to wait on it, you know, because I think it can be frustrating where it's like, well, I prayed or I read or I fellowshiped, I worshipped, and I'm still unhappy, I'm still sad, I'm still confused. And I think that joy comes in the morning tells me to anticipate that it is coming, even if it's not coming at the pace that I would prefer. And so I just think that helps to settle and moderate even our expectations.

of stuff because I've found that even when it does come, it's not like a shot of Baca. You know, it's not, it's not, it's a settledness that I think is really mysterious. Because it's, it's something that happens, I think, in the process of clinging and crying and depending where you just experience one weight being lifted. Yeah. And you can't explain why. You know what I'm saying? So I just, I don't know, I just want us to know.

Like, it's coming in the morning, but it is coming. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Activia. You might already be eating yogurt, but not all yogurts are created equal. Activia contains over one billion probiotics per serving to survive and reach the gut alive. When it comes to gut health, Activia is the number one family doctor-recommended probiotic yogurt brand. Choose Activia. Feel good from the inside out. Visitactivia.comia for more details.

When I've taught on Christian Joy before in particular, when Vince Young won the national title with the Texas Longhorns, I don't know what year it was, like 05, 06, they're playing USC, and there's this picture, you can Google it after you're done listening or as you listen. I know everybody multitask. but of Vince Young running into the end zone to score the game-winning touchdown right as time expires. And a USC cheerleader or Palm Squad member who is jumped in the air with her palms up high, yelling, like she clearly doesn't understand what just happened. And I think sometimes Christians can think Christian joy

looks like that cheerleader. And like I don't, like I am frequently bothered as a pastor. I've tried to shepherd it out of the village as best I can. I don't need you to give Jesus the spirit sprinkles when your world's burn into the ground. Yeah. Like I always want to point out, and I do this in the book too, I want to point out those prayers in the Bible that I don't hear anybody praying anymore. Yep. Like you'd change home groups

If certain people in your home group Started praying like Moses Or Nehemiah Psalm 88 Or David or I mean those brothers were not They were frustrated with the Lord said it

Yeah And I wonder if confession I don't think this is me I just think I read it somewhere And I don't know I don't think confession is just telling God the bad stuff We've done

I think sometimes it's just telling them The truth Lamenting Yeah Yeah Yeah, lament. It's like that's the stuff that's gone. How long, Lord, will you forsake me? Will you forsake me forever? Yeah. I don't anybody praying like that? Yeah. I mean, world on fire. Life burnt to the ground. And like bumper sticker theology.

Yeah, because I think that theology has to die because I think the Bible tells us that we serve a God who's acquainted with grief. Like, it's not like he himself is not acquainted with sorrows. And so I think he can relate to us in all of the ways in which we share. show up and exist, you know, our highs and our lows. And so he's with us in the suffering. So, yeah, tell him I'm frustrated. He knows what it feels like to be frustrated. So back to, we have somewhere to go. Yeah. And where's Christian Joy born? Not only do I have a place to go, but I have a guy who can hold this. That's good. He can hold, he knows it's scary to be us. That's good. That's what the writer of Hebrews is saying. Yeah. We have an empathetic high priest. That's good. Absolutely, that's good. In chapter three, you talked about, you emphasized being like

porn spirit. Um, and, and, And it was very interesting how you talked about being poor in spirit and how it leads to humility and kind of how humility gives us a self-awareness of us, a rifeful awareness of us. And that was interesting. Can you touch on that? Yeah. One, I think there's some theologians that think that the beatitudes are, they cascade into one another, that one leads to the next, leads to the next, leads to the next. and I think your first time through, it does. And then I think afterwards they start dancing together and one's leading to a greater growth than the other, and another one is picking up and strengthening another,

and then now you're dancing. But the first time through is everybody starts with being poor in spirit. There's no way that you can come to the Lord. And really, the word there is beggarly, right? Isn't that wild? Not just low. So you hit me Googling this morning, I was reading chapter three this morning.

I was like, beggarly. I'm a beggar in the spirit. And then you start to break down like all the, I was like, this is good. God wants me to beggerly. But delighted him, but beggarly. The Lord honors lowliness. He honor, I mean, through Genesis to Revelation,

he honors lowliness. And so, like in my own life, I don't always want, like here I am, you know, 30-something years into following him. Sometimes I'm looking for ways to get low. Like instead of just him handed me the lowness, I'm trying to find it. Where could I fast? Where could I stay low?

Where should I keep my mouth shut? Where could I, right? I'm trying to find those spaces to keep developing that. Because I, yeah, when he hands it to me, it needs to be a little heavier. Yeah. It tends to be a little heavier. Would you say that the relationship between being poor and spirit and sanctification is that God creates circumstances and trials that produce that dynamic in you?

Certainly. And then I've created some of those dynamics myself by being a moron. And the Lord, because he's committed to me in Christ, will sometimes let the foolishness of my actions land on me in a way that reminds me that I'm not as smart as I think I am. And I'm not as charismatic as I think I am. not as cute as I think I am. And so there are certainly situations that are beyond me that the Lord pulls into my life.

And then there are certain situations where I didn't slow down and listen. And I just thought I knew and I dove head first in. And he let me reap. Probably not all of it, but enough of it to remember. To remember I ain't as smart as I think I am. It makes me think about how, like, you know how Philippian says to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. and how, I've said this often, how we participate with God in sanctification.

It's not like we're just passive and not doing nothing. And I think one of the ways to participate with him in this is not to resist it. You know what I'm saying? Like when you're in a situation, because I think if you like me, you don't want to be needy,

you don't want to be dependent, you don't beg, huh? Beg? You know what I'm saying? So you try to, you try to control your life in such a way to not be as dependent and as needy as you are. And so to actually lean into it is to actually help, I guess, produce what he says will happen, which is like, bless our important.

For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Hold on. I just moved. What that mean? I have never studied this passage ever in my life. Jackie, that's surprising. That surprises me. You are the commentary.

Yeah. So the kingdom of God is the rule and reign. of Jesus and you stay low, you're going to see the rule and reign of Jesus. Like, you stay low, you'll see his power. You stay low. You'll taste his victory. You stay low. And you'll push back darkness and see order brought into chaos. It's the kingdom. That's what Jesus came preaching. In fact, as I'm intro in the beatitudes, all Jesus is preaching up until this first banger of a sermon is the kingdom of God has come. the kingdom of God has broken into the world.

So he's saying the ruling reign, my ruling reign, is here. And then you just watch him flex on everything. Like, you know, all the crazy stuff we see in the Old Testament. You don't see a single demon driven out in the Old Testament. Yeah, you don't. And then here comes Jesus and just flexing, just cast him. That's good. Nobody arguing.

There ain't no dualism there. There's not one that's like, he needs to fast to get it out. You know, he's like, nah. And the kingdom is broken in. And it's here. And the lowly, the poor and spirit, the beggarly in spirit, I have nothing to offer you. They see the kingdom. Jesus.

That's good. And he frames it because he, the last beatitude is what? Persecuted for righteousness sake. What do they get? The kingdom. Yeah. So I love that. I loved how he bookended that.

I love how having being poor and spirit gives us a proper perspective of God. But can you talk about how being. important spirit gives us a proper perspective of ourselves and how in seeing ourselves rightfully it can help us be better Christians, better disciples, all of the things. Yeah, I think there can be, if you're living checklist Christianity, which I think would be called moralistic deism. Yes. Right? If you're living that, then you can get to feeling yourself. You really can't. Yeah. You can get into, man, you ain't getting high like you used to. You ain't getting drunk like you used to. You ain't of porn like you used to.

And you're going to get a little, just get a little swagger in your step. You start feeling yourself. That ain't how the Lord sees it. That's not the Lord's grid. The Lord's about inside out, which is, again, if we keep reading the sermon on the Mount, he's going to go hard at.

Yes, he does. You have heard it said, but I say to you. And what's he always after? The heart. You're talking about behavioral modification. I'm talking about transforming your heart. We ain't talking about the same thing. That's good.

And so the way that you begin to cultivate pride in your life is when you start grabbing hold of like moralistic deism and you're turning this relationship into a checklist so that God owes you something. And now who's the God if you put God in debt? Well, now you just exalted yourself to divine and you've made Jesus your Aaron boy. Wow. But if this is relational and I've come in beggarly, then I see myself rightly. So even when people like if I'm with people who praise me, like I'm quick to go, oh, brother, you ain't seeing right or says you ain't, I feel like Jacob.

I mean, I do. I feel it right. I feel like a scoundrel on whom the Lord's favor rests. No one's more confused by my life than I am. No one. No one's more fearful for what I'm stewarding than I am. Like I feel that in my guts. Like I don't know what this is.

I don't pretend to, I just want to be near him and love him, and I want to just let him do what he wants to do. I just feel terrified in this sometimes. Yeah, because I thought about that when I was reading your book about, you know, being like, like poor in spirit. It kind of gives us, it doesn't allow us to be too high. That's right. And it doesn't allow us to be too low because I think we can straddle on two sides of the extreme.

Yeah. It's like, you either really prideful or you're just doing all this self-loathing and pitying. Yeah, the way we say, the way we talk about is, Stay low and stand up. That's good. Stay low and stand up. That's good. I'm still that.

No, it's all you. You're going to tattoo it on your head. I probably did, so it's fine. Yeah, but it's good because I think being important spirit gives you a proper perspective of yourself, your own heart, because God can't use somebody. They don't see themselves. No. You know, and I think it gives us a proper perspective of God. So that's really dope.

It's really dope. I think before we moved to Blessed or Those Who Mourn, it immediately made me think of how that changes are. understanding a relationship with power. For sure. You know, to say, blessed are the poor and spirit for theirs is the kingdom of God. The kingdom breaks in through brokenness and beggarliness and all the things. I think we think being strong is the way.

That being smart is the way. Or the technique. Like it's a, it's, it's, how can I make it happen when it's like, oh my face is how it happens. And that,

that takes a lot of reorientation. But I think the Lord is like, yeah, It's kind of greatest thing the kingdom is servant of all. You know what I'm saying? With the Perry's is produced by The Perry's with support from Amanda Reed and Channing McBride. Video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley. Edited by the team at Tread Libby.

Artwork by Hobb. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.