With The Perrys - Best of WTP – Depression, Suffering, and the Faithfulness of God's Presence

Episode Date: July 20, 2026

TRIGGER WARNING: This episode discusses suicidal ideation. With The Perrys is taking some time this summer to revisit popular episodes from years past. Brenna Blain is a wife, mom, and theologian who talks honestly about faith, suffering, and mental health. Brenna shares her story of running from God, eventually finding herself in YWAM, and later navigating a bipolar diagnosis, psych ward stays, and some of the darkest days of her life. Brenna, Jackie, and Preston talk about depression, suffering, and what it looks like to love people well when there aren't easy answers. Connect with Brenna: https://www.instagram.com/bunonmyhead/ https://brenna-blain.vercel.app/ Order Brenna’s book, Can I Say That?: How Unsafe Questions Lead Us to the Real God – https://www.amazon.com/Can-Say-That-Unsafe-Questions/dp/1400339944 Listen to Brenna’s podcast, Can I Say That? https://pod.link/1469288735 This Episode is Sponsored By: https://gominno.com/ — Sign up online with code PERRY to get your first month FREE! The best businesses aren’t built in boardrooms. They’re built by people who just started. Free trial at http://shopify.com/perry - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi, St. Nantes. How are thou? What's good with y'all? Hope you're fine. Hope you're blessed. Hope you're favored. Hope you're happy. Hope you're joyful. Even if you're sorrowful. I hope you're joyful.

All the things. If you're broken, if you're despairing. I hope you get some hope. If you constipated. Because that's the thing, too. You might got a booboo and you probably just got a booboo. You know I thought that yesterday? I'm not even lying to you.

What about boo-bobo? No, I had like a small attitude. Well, I have a lot of attitudes all the time because that's just the way. I just because you, boo-boo what's up? No, it was like a mixture of anger and sadness altogether. And then, like, I took like a 30-minute nap and then, like, ate some food and I felt a little better. And I was like, man, I think sometimes we're just hungry. We're just malnourished sometimes.

Yeah. On top of hormones and demons. Hormones and demons. I think all of those together make, you know, a soup kitchen of emotions. I like your makeup. We can't keep saying that. It's so pretty, though. But we can't keep saying it.

It's beautiful. Because now it's going to become a thing where people are looking at it and trying to pay attention. Look at our makeup, guys. Yeah, what concealer do you use? It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Ask me about my soul. How's your soul, Jackie?

Burdened. Why is it burdened? Because now you're going to make me cry, so I'm not going to do that either. Oh. Why would you do that? I'm sorry. It's okay. I'm sorry.

Moving on. Ask me about my soul. How's your soul? My soul is good. You know what? I'm really. ready after the the um i wrote my book and stuff like that i'm really ready to get out there and evangelize in the city because this city has a lot of darkness and so as i as i traveled in alana and

go about i'm just seeing all of the spiritual warfare here and i just think the city needs evangelist and so i feel like my soul is ready to get out there but at the same time it feels burden for the city that i live in That's good. Yeah. Okay. We have somebody sitting next us that's wearing pink. Hey, pink. Hi.

Hey, Brenna. Hey. Brenna Blaine. That's your last name, right? It is. I said that correct. Now, your Instagram is bun on my head. Yep.

What's that about? When I was in high school, I finally had hair long enough to wear in a bun. And I thought it was amazing. And I never not wore a bun. And so people called me bunhead. Okay. This is easy. because of your initiatives do people call you BB?

No, but they should. Yeah. I mean, I went to high school with like four BBs. Yeah, no, I've never been called that ever in my life. So guess what? You're BB to me. Okay. Hey, BB.

I'm going to call you, Brenda. I'm going to call you BB. So the first. That's a black name, but hey, you're in a black house. The first time I was introduced to you, I think we were engaging or interacting through DMs. And your your Instagram name is so nondescript yet quirky that I didn't click on your page ever. Because I'm like, I don't really think anybody with that name. It's going to have some depth.

But I think I did randomly at some point that somebody share some stuff. And I was like, oh, like she's really interesting and introspective. And like you came across as somebody who was deconstructed. That's just a judgment. because, you know, the tattoos, you know, like, it was given like ex-vangelical energy, but it was actually solid and honest about some of the, like, problematic stuff while at the same time advocating for low-key conservative and, like, solid stuff. Like, where do you, how do you hold that tension between being someone who, who even your

image can make you be perceived a certain way, yet at the same time, you have a love for the Lord and His Word? Like, how do you hold that tension? That's a good question. I don't, I think there's been so much discovery of I grew up in the, the realm of evangelicalism that was like, you, if you're a girl, you wear pink and you're soft and, well, yeah, okay. Yep. Well, you know. That's all right.

You got hugs on. Yeah. Those things. Hot-top hooks. But my parents, like, never reinforced those stereotypes. And so I was really free to kind of, my dad took me to motorcycle shops growing up. And I just loved that. And so I had this like, I just never felt bound to present myself in a certain way, which really came out like in, you know, my story 14 through 19 really was this deconstruction.

And so I was kind of headed that way. And then was stopped in my tracks. But in that was never like, oh. well, now I can't get tattoos and now I can't, you know. Did that cause any awkwardness when it came to you being like in church with kids who are not being raised and cultivated in the same way? Yeah, and I think it can create awkwardness still because people look at me and assume that I am deconstructed or deconstructing.

I remember I was on someone else's podcast. And we got halfway through the podcast and they wanted to talk about sexuality. And so I was sharing. And we got halfway through and they're like, wait, you're non-affirming. And I was like, yeah, that's my story. What's crazy is when I first met you, the way I met you, we both had an event in New York. And I think Jackie ended up coming with me, which is a very rare thing where I'm invited. to an event and if we're not doing it together, she just wants to come with me.

And so we had to do a photo shoot in New York. And when you guys met, I was like, man, it's probably one of the reasons why the Lord had her come with me because I think that you guys were supposed to met, especially after the testimony you gave us before the podcast started. But when I met you, though, you know, I thought to myself, I was like, man, I looked at your page. I saw that your theology was very solid. But at the same time, I saw that people resonated with you because there was an honesty.

but you did seem misplaced in some way, but in a good way. And so that always intrigues me when someone has deep theological truths, but they don't seem to fit in. Because that's our life. That's our life. Right? But isn't that the Lord that he calls unlikely people to himself? And so sometimes we see people assimilate or even see people kind of like work and think

like an assembly line in the Christian community. you know it's not not saying it as bad but when I see people who don't look like they kind of fit in but at the same time they're giving not heresy but truth that always intrigues me and so I think that was the thing that intrigued me yeah I think I think our packaging is so useful to the kingdom yeah I'm saying because like for Preston I've shared this on the podcast before like that one time you were on a flight and you just so happen to sit sit next to a Mormon right and he started to engage you about his tradition, having no idea that that's literally what you do out here in these streets. But you look, you, you didn't, I'm sure you didn't look homeless.

I'm sure you look like you had a home. But you don't look like you read. You understand? Until you open up your mouth, it's like, look, he doesn't read. The pearl of great price and all the, yeah. So I think our packaging, low-key, allows us to move in rooms. I just didn't. Brenna, should I be offended?

what she just said? No. She said, it don't look like it. It looked like it dumb. Listen. No,

no. Listen, we serve a savior who just looked only human. No, no. Yeah, yeah. But he was both God.

No, yeah. That day he really did. Like, I'm about to get my gospel to this guy. He didn't, he didn't know that like, no,

I read all of your literature and your church history. Yeah. And so I, with that being said, I think I, you know, with you, I was like,

man, I can see how the Lord can use this girl greatly because she catches a love. lot of people off card. And that's how the Lord. I just love the Lord in that way because he, you know, he just, he uses unlikely thing. You know, find the stuff for your kids to watch that actually lines up with what you believe as a Christian and as a person that loves the Lord. It ain't really that easy, you know, they turn on the TV and all types of things pop up, you know.

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With mental kids, don't just watch something good. They grow in it. Ad-free stuff is, like, the biggest thing for me. Because I think me and so many other parents have experienced your kid, watch some crazy stuff pop up in the ass. And so even if you find clean, things for them to watch those asses what gets you.

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It's the name of the podcast that I also. have that someone else said you're saying a lot of things that people aren't saying in the church maybe it should be called can i say that that's a good name i want us to explore because before we started talking i told brenda that i don't i don't write out questions because i like it to feel fluid and natural and spontaneous um and so i really just want to talk about your story and explore through it and in it and so let's say you you were on the stage with a bunch of university students, and they told you to tell us who you are, where would you start?

I mean, I would go, I'm a wife, I'm a mom, the things that take up my day to day. And then I would share, I'm a contemporary theologian who wrestles with the intersection of faith and suffering. because that was my first big question in life was at 10 years old. The God that I've been told about is not big enough for the problems that I'm experiencing. Wow. And so I would assume nobody said that explicitly. No. So how did you hear that?

Yeah. My dad was a pastor when I was growing up just for the first. few years. And so my perception of what being a Christian was was like a laundry list of do's and don'ts. And I think that's what it is for a lot of kids. And I think you can grow out of that. I think most people do. But when you don't, that has great implications. And so I was going, okay, like I don't, you know, I don't wear bikinis in my house. We didn't play with Barbie. So there's like some simple things. But then there is like God who was with us. cared for us, loves us, sees us.

And I'm going, yeah, yeah, yeah, I can see all this in my life. And my grandma, my grandma was the most interesting person to me in terms of faith, because the way she talked about Jesus was as if she woke up and went and had coffee with him. And I thought that was fascinating as a young child. And so she got cancer and I remember praying like, she knows Lord, she's going to be healed. well, she died while I was gone at summer camp and I came home and that was like the first like, whoa, wait a second. I thought this God who we're in relationship with heals people, he doesn't.

Okay, so that was in August. A few months later, my parents sit us down and say, hey, your dad made some choices and he can't live in the house anymore. My parents got separated. And I'm going, okay. And then a month after that, I ended up being molested by a stranger. And so I'm going, what kind of a God is with you on Sunday mornings at Sunday school, but isn't with you when you're being taken advantage of.

But I didn't have the language to ask those questions. I didn't have the language to express to my parents that I'd been abused. And so at age 10, I'm going, oh, I can't not go to church, but I really don't think this God person likes me. And then by age 14, I was, you know, severely suicidal because of my abuse not being shared. So I was struggling with it internally all this time. And then I realized, oh, I'm attracted to the same sex. And that is not compatible with the Christianity that I grew up with,

especially in the world of Westboro Baptist, which was on the news all the time. You know, and so that's when I went, oh, I don't think I can do this. But my parents really want me to be in church. And so I'll just fake it until I get to college and then I'll, I don't know, be a super hot lesbian and smoke weed. That seems exhausting to me to try to. to be a Christian while not being a Christian. Do you notice that, like, I guess for the people who are engaged in that way, for example, that wasn't my life, right?

Because I wasn't raised around in a Christian home, none of that. So I didn't have to do it. I could just be a sinner and that was all good. As long as I didn't disrespect, my mom moved straight, right? But then when I became a Christian and got around Christians that grew up in Jesus, I saw that struggle more often. And it felt like, oh, that just seems tiresome. Like, I would reject Jesus too if all I knew was this fake form of godliness

that didn't have actual power behind it. So I don't know. Like, what was that like? That's like a vague question. But just what is it like to act like you know somebody that you don't know? I told someone the other day every single time my mom's phone rang. like immense anxiety would rush over me because I thought I was going to be found out,

which I was. But I always thought that the phone call was because I was living a somewhat double life. And that is, it kept me up at night. You know, I wasn't sleeping. But my youth group was really interesting because there was a lot of kids there. So I'm like from the Portland area

and it was very Portland area-esque. Like, everyone was in a garage band or, like, everyone wore skinny jeans before it was cool. Everyone thrifted. So I really found a sense of genuine community there because of these, like, more shallow things. And I remember, I, like, I had a tumbler that I was very, I thought was private but wasn't.

And it had, like, a lot of things. on it that made it very obvious to the onlooker that I was gay. And my parents never saw it, but someone from my church found it, sent it to my small group leader. And my small group leader who was, it's like the John Mulanie joke that's like, it's like a horse babysitting a dog. My small group leader was 18. And she's like, I don't know what to do. So she told my youth pastor, and I was so prepared to go. go and to be told you can't be here anymore and we're going to tell your parents and you're going to hell and like all these things and I went and I thought I could avoid my youth pastor was just like

I mean I was five nine by then okay so you know he saw me thanks yeah as soon as I walked in and said hey can we talk later and he sat down and said brun I just wanted want you to know that a lot of Christians wrestle with same-sex attraction. I'm really glad you're here. And that was it. He got up and walked away. And in that moment, it wasn't like, oh, I'm a Christian now, or, oh, I believe this, or, oh, I buy into this. But all of a sudden, I was given this invitation to wrestle with this question for the first time my life. Because this whole time I had believed because my attractions existed, I was damned to hell. Like, that was it for me. I prayed every night that I would be made straight because I didn't want to go to hell.

And so it was odd because I could kind of go and hear everything and analyze everything because I was finally safe in some sense to be there, but I was still very much living this life that other people didn't know about. So it got exhausting and it would catch up with me in different places. But at the same time, I'm like, I wasn't the only person. There was a lot of, a lot of other people, a lot of other leaders doing the same thing. It was kind of like, well, this is what you do until you get to college and then you deconstruct. Yeah.

I have a lot of questions when it comes to sort of like wrestling because, you know, I like the idea of a healthy, a healthy wrestle in the Christian faith. So I don't want to speed up your story. And so I hope you, if you want to go back, because I'm enjoying hearing your journey and everything. But I'm very curious to know, like, with all the things that you struggle with, all the things that, you went through in your childhood, how did you end up coming to faith? Was it the grace that you experienced from your youth pastor? Was it the grace of people loving you well? Is that your testimony of how you ended up coming to faith? I think it was a mix of when I look back, I'm able to see that it was a mix of everything.

But I think there's a moment. So I got to the end of high school and I had gone to college prep school that I did terrible at. And I hated it. And I was like, well, now I can't go to college and deconstruct because I don't want to go to college. And so I was just trying to figure out how could I kind of run away from this life that I've been living. And I figured a really good way to run away from God is to hide right under his nose. So I was like, I'm going to become a missionary because, again, I wanted to surf and smoke weed. So I found this missionary school in Maui.

And because I grew up as a church kid. I need you know how crazy that is, Brenda. You know what I'm a run from God by going to a missionary camp? Yeah. You could have just, you just could have went to the Satanic cult. down the street. I know, but it just felt easier. It's God's hand on your life.

That's all. Go here. I knew all the Christian language, so I applied and got accepted. And I remember going and thinking, everyone's going to be so like, oh, we love the Lord and like all this, like, Christian language. And I got there. And there's a lot of other people just like me who were like, I've, I don't want to do this anymore, but I need to get out of my house, and this was easy because I was raised as a Christian.

And so I was like, great, we're all going to smoke weed and surf together. And the first two weeks, I met this girl. She had a crazy story, and she was running from the Lord, and I witnessed. I didn't grow up in a tradition where the Holy Spirit would, speak to people, or would interact with people, would give people words, or maybe convictions, but I wasn't really keyed into that, or tuned into that. And I saw God give this person a word for her. And it was so, it couldn't have been anything else. Like, it was something about her life that no one else knew. And it really freaked me out. It really rocked my world to just watch this play out in a matter of 10 minutes, just sitting outside.

And I went, oh, no, God might actually be real. And if he is real, there are implications for that in my life. and I have to figure this out. And so I did two things. I prayed, God, if you're real, you can have all my life. I don't know. I don't know what I'm going to do for the next six months. I don't know what I'm going to do when I go home. Whatever you want me to do, if you're going to speak to that person, you speak to me, tell me.

And then I read through the New Testament because I was like, I have to figure out who this Jesus person. SMS. Yeah, that's dope. So throughout the years, we used Shopify for so many different things, whether that was podcast tours or poetry tours, even our clothing line boat apparel. And Shopify just made it easier to just run a business online. It does a lot of things for you. It just makes the life of the entrepreneur way easier. Shopify's templates and AI tools will actually get you a stunning site up and running fast. No coding needed. Shopify checkout means more customers actually buy and returning ones can do it in a single click. And if questions come up, Shopify's built-in AI assistant sidekick is ready to help you build, troubleshoot, and keep everything moving.

Yeah, I think for us with bold apparel, Shopify's has been a really helpful platform when it comes to our websites, when it comes to inventory, when it comes to keeping up with customers. All you need is the idea. Shopify handles the rest. Start your free trial at Shopify.com slash Perry. Start your free trial at Shopify.com slash Perry. That is Shopify.com slash Perry. Yes. I'm curious just about that moment, though.

Because what is it about the reality that God exists that made you willing to make him Lord? Because you could have acknowledged his existence and still rejected it. So what still made you say, okay, if you're real, I'll give you my life. Why is that the thing? Because this girl melted. It was not her personality. It was not just everything about the circumstance.

It was like watching the Lord draw near to someone. And that person experiencing that for the first time in their life was earth shattering. And it was like, I think I want that. Yeah. It kind of feels, it kind of sounds like. a little bit of my testimony. Because I think what you're essentially saying is when you got out of the environment that you was in and you saw this lady experienced the Lord in a certain way that faith almost

seemed tangible to you or like seemed more real. Because for me, like when I was searching for the Lord and I was confused and a friend of mine got killed and my mom was trying to save his life and I felt like the Lord was like, this is you and your sin. So I went to go live with my aunt. And she connected me with this guy named Gary. And just through his life, I was like, wow, God. I think you're real.

Because I've never seen a young man live. Like, I've seen old people because I thought like faith was like for old. Oh, you just serving the Lord because you're old and you're going to die soon. Wow. Like you live, like I honestly thought that. Like, oh, you just, you lived your life. And so to see this young dude who I knew growing up, they used to gang bang. now going to Moody College

talking about theology riding through the city in a Mustang with baggy jeans singing hymns and crying. I was like, wow, God, you must be real. And so through his life, I felt like Christianity kind of seemed tangible. And I think that's what I hear from you.

Like, man, it was like, okay, God, you must be real. And I love how God kind of takes us out of our norm to put us into place to kind of show us who he is and I think that's dope. What happened when you went home? So I had

I had no idea what I was going to do. My previous plan was to go to school, get a degree in communications because you can do whatever the heck you want

with that. And over the course of those six months while I was in, it was YWAM youth with the mission. I got four different, four,

the same four words from four different people. And again, being someone who didn't grow up in that tradition was going, what do you mean? A word. What are you talking about? And it just, it was the same. And it was like someone who like someone who lived in a different town and then someone else. And like they weren't connected and it was so insane. And they all said, like you're going to go home and speak. And I thought you're out of your mind. Because one, I don't want to be a ministry. two, I've never gone up on stage before and spoke. And so, but again, I prayed that prayer at the beginning of my time.

And so I was like, okay, Lord, I'm not kicking down any doors. I'll be obedient to you, but I'm not kicking down any doors. Within a month of being home, I got a call from a youth pastor who said, hey, would you come and teach in like a month? And I was like, okay, I think this is like the Lord opening a door, so you have to say yes. And so I said yes, and it was terrible. But I remember getting on stage and opening up the Bible and feeling for the first time, I felt like I was made out of gasoline and like someone lit a match because I never knew what people were talking about when they said I'm passionate about.

something. And all of a sudden it was like, okay, I was dead in my sin. And I was so far from God. And now I'm at the youth group that I was living this double life in. And the Lord has allowed me to be here to open up his word and to preach to other kids who are so far from God or who feel like because they're 17 or 18, like they can choose their faith later, but God has something else for them. And I just, like, it was the most amazing feeling. And I, I remember stepping off stage and the guy that I ended up marrying was there. And he came up to me. We weren't dating or anything yet. And he said, it's really crazy when you watch someone do something that God. made them to do.

And I thought, look at him pouring into you. Right? I was like, what do you meet God baby to do this? And so I started Googling schools for theology because I was like, I cannot be on this stage and not know what I'm talking about. And I was leading a small group and I was a worship intern and I kept getting asked to teach and then ended up going. getting into the school, Moltenoma in Portland and got offered a youth interim role. And while I was doing that,

I thought it was healed from mental illness because I had struggled so much during high school, but then YWAM for the course of like two years. So YWM on, I was just really good. And so when I talked about when I would teach the Bible, I talk about my testimony, talk about mental illness as if it was in the past. And I got engaged. I was at the school.

I had this dream job handed to me that I never thought I wanted. And I lost the ability to sleep and to eat. And all I could think about was just death. All the time it consumed my thoughts. And it just got worse and worse and worse. And I remember I would preach on Wednesday nights and then I would go and sit in my therapist office and just go, Lord, like, I know you can heal. I've seen you heal. Would you just heal me? Would you just heal me? And it just got worse and worse and worse. And by January, so it started in September. And by January, I was like, you know what? If God's not going to heal me, I might as well just go. be with him. So I had everything planned out.

I was going to go to work on Monday morning and tell my boss I was praying about stepping down and then go home and attempt and it would give me enough time that my husband would be home from work. And so I went to the office, told my boss, went to my office, got my stuff. and this woman walked in. And she sat down a chair. And she looked at me and she said, do I need to take you to the hospital?

Randomly. Randomly. Okay. Wow. And I said, no, I'm fine. And she said, Brenna, is there any relief in the idea that there might be someone

there who could help you. And I broke down at that point. And I was like, did you know this woman? Or did this woman know you? I knew her. She was a friend's mom. And she had gone coffee with someone that morning.

And she lived by her church office and she was driving home. And she felt like the Lord said, hey, pray for Brenna. So she pulled over and prayed for me in her car. And she said when she said, she was praying, the Lord said, go get her. Wow. Wow. And so she took me to the hospital.

And I was like one of the longest days of my life. I ended up in the psych board and I got diagnosed as bipolar, which in one world, it was a relief that this had a name and a diagnosis in people who could help in medication. But then in this other world, I'm going, okay, I've heard preachers and pastors talk about experience anxiety from the pulpit, and I've heard them talk about depression, but I've never heard a preacher or a pastor talk about being bipolar. And that kind of felt like a death sentence. And I remember sitting in the psych ward,

like, waiting to be evaluated. And the doctor came in and he like had his clipboard, and he looks at me, and he looks at his clipboard and he looks at me and he's like, did you do Y-Wam? And I'm like, why is this my life? Yeah. And I was like, uh-huh. And he goes, and you're supposed to speak. You're supposed to speak, right?

Yeah. And he goes, so how does trying to kill yourself fit in with your theology? Keep going. Right? Yeah. And I had no idea, like, I had no idea where the Lord was going to take me from there. Because I'm going, I have to quit my job, which I did. But I'm like, man, Lord, I thought you wanted me to preach the gospel and to teach out of the Bible.

And my life's a mess. You know, I had just gotten married. Took a pregnancy test two weeks later. He was pregnant. Child. Mm-mm. Mm-mm. My dad, that was like the worst moment for my dad.

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Did at any point you feel forsaken and how did you endure it? Because I don't want to say get over it. I don't want to say push through it. Because I think oftentimes that's how mental illness and suffering is communicated when often I think it's a weight we have to bear under. So how did you fight through and endure the feeling of being forsaken? And like I just gave my life to the Lord. I didn't got married to a man.

I'm over here preaching your gospel. I'm doing all the things. And yet I'm sad. Yeah. I was sitting. I got put in a locked unit, which is what they do to make sure that you are not harmful to other people and not harmful to yourself. So there's nothing. Very similar to what you would see in a jail.

And I'm sitting at the end of the bed. And I had to get transferred there. And so I thought my husband was following me up in his car. It's 11 at night. And I'm in an armored vehicle. And I thought I was going to be able to see him. And so I didn't say goodbye because he was going to the bathroom when they came to get me. And so I get there and I'm like, hey, excuse me.

My husband, he followed us up. And could I just see him? And she goes, no, I'm so sorry. like we have really strict visitor policy. Okay. And can I call them? No. Okay.

So at that point, I'm crying again. And she goes, I'm so sorry. This is a really bad time to be here because we're also switching shifts. And so you're going to be alone for like the next hour. No nurses can come sit with you. And it's a big heavy metal door. She leaves in that thing. Just shunk.

And I'm sitting at the end of my bed just weeping because never in my, my life have I experienced that kind of isolation. I've always been able to pick up my phone to text someone, to call someone, turn on a TV show. I have nothing. There's not even pictures on the wall to look at. And I'm just like sitting with the fact that, Lord, I've been begging you to heal me and you, for whatever reason I've chosen not to. and it wasn't even like an accurate wording, but I just remember, make your requests known.

And so I'm sitting there going, Lord, you chose not to heal me. I don't know why. But would you just be with me? Because I'm so alone. And I laid down, pulled the sheets up to my chin, and I woke up eight hours later. Wow. And that was the first time in six months that I slept through the night.

And it was disorienting to wake up to. And so three weeks later, I had to preach again. I scheduled you to preach. Well, so I got scheduled to preach before that. Okay. And they said, do you still want to preach? And I said, yes. You know, my personality.

Yes, I still want to preach. And I was supposed to preach on Martha and Mary Lazarus. And so I'm flipping through the Bible and just reading. And I'd always, that story Lazarus always sticks out to me. And I get to the part where the sisters run out and go, Jesus, if you would have been here, our brother wouldn't have died. And I just, like, collapsed in on myself going, Jesus, if you would have been here, I would have been. healed. I thought, I thought that's what that equalled. God being with us means we're healed and whole and comfortable. And I'm reading through this narrative. And it's so interesting because Jesus is like,

I'm going to raise your brother in there. Like, yeah, yeah, we know about the resurrection life. but he also means it physically for Lazarus. And then it goes, Jesus weeps. And I'd never thought about the fact that why did Jesus stop when he knew he was going to raise Lazarus from the dead? And when he knew his, the resurrection life was going to be a possibility for all who believe in. in Jesus. Why would he stop on the way to the grave to mourn a life that would soon be raised? And all of a sudden it was like, the Lord was like, Brenna, I am not a superhero who desires to swoop in, save you from your mess, and then leave. I desire to be with you. And this entire time

you've been praying for me to heal you, but you've never asked that I I would be with you and your suffering. That's powerful. And it was in that moment when I was like, okay, maybe I'll never be healed. But I tried to kill myself. And the Lord sent someone to walk through my door and to interrupt my day. The Lord is clearly with me. That's good.

And if I can come to know the Lord through this awful reality, it's unveiled the character of God to me in ways that I would have never known him if I would have gotten to be healthy. Yeah. That's really powerful because I've had those moments where I was like, Lord, I just want to feel you. I want to feel you with me. But as you were talking, one of the things that I was thinking about is just people who have loved ones who go through things like this or have mental illnesses. And as a husband, I was just thinking about your husband, you know. And I know a lot of times it's hard for loved ones probably to see their loved ones go through something like that. And maybe sometimes they can see how, like, how, like how tangents. tangible God is actually with you. But I know when someone is experiencing depression and sadness, even things that are

plainly there, you can't see because your condition is not allowing you to see it. All you can kind of feel is what you're kind of going through. Right. And so I guess my question is, you know, how has your husband helped you in your process? and how, like, what advice can you give to husbands and wives and brothers and sisters who have believers or who have people who God is calling to himself who's going through suicidal thoughts, who's going through depression, who's going through sadness. I've woken up days and I just felt like a dark cloud was over me.

And nothing nobody said can ever get me out of it, you know, and those rare moments. for me, but I know what it feels like a little bit. And so I guess do you have any advice of how we can be a help? Yeah, well, that moment or that period of time in the psych ward was not my last time in the psych ward. Okay. I've been twice now. And the second time ended up being for an overdose for an attempt.

And my husband found me. And I still get, like, so emotional when I think about it because I thought, you know, I had this perception of what overdosing on drugs would be like. And for me, and I think, again, this was the Lord that it was like, I thought I was going to be unconscious. And the Lord, like, shut everything down except my ears. so I could hear everything. I could hear my husband open the front door.

I could hear my husband talking to my five-year-old saying, hey, some guys are going to come in from the fire department. It's okay. It's going to be okay, buddy. They're here to help. My husband comes into the room, sits down on the bed, puts his hands on me and says, Brenna, I am not mad at you.

I love you so much. And I'm right here. I'm right here. I'm right here. The first time I was in the psych ward, I was an hour and a half away from home. This making me emotional. I had to start thinking about bunny rabbits or something to keep the tears back. Sheesh.

I was an hour and a half away from home in the first psych ward. Austin Blaine got up every single morning. He could only visit one hour a day. He got up every single morning, drove to Longview, was in Longview all day out of Starbucks for my entire three-day stay at this place. He said, why do you, why? He's like, I just want to be there as soon as the doors open and stay as long as I can. The embodiment of Jesus Christ in Austin's life to me was just being there.

Wow. It wasn't him trying to fix everything. It wasn't him trying to talk through my emotions or be my therapist. It was the fact that in my most shameful moments, as a wife, a Christian, a mom, that he showed up and sat next to me and like fully owned I told you

on the day I married you I love you I'll be here and I am Wow Isn't that crazy though That the same thing that won you over

with the Lord is the same thing that kind of won you over with you? It's the power of presence that's what your husband displayed. He displayed the power of being with you in the same way Jesus was with you. Right? And so like he never like Jesus, like Lazarus, he didn't come immediately and try to take away their mourning.

He was he was emotionally intelligent enough to be with them. And not to just be with them and just stand around. It's like like enter into and their suffering in their mourning. And so that's powerful. That's powerful for the listeners to know that like, I think sometimes we want to like fix our loved ones problems. But the power of presence and just the power of being with them is so key. I'm curious on how you show up on social media.

You preach the gospel. You teach the scriptures. You're faithful where you can be. How do you fight the shame? of feeling too broken to do that. Wow. And not saying you do, but I can anticipate people who are like,

but I'm too, my depression, my suicidal ideation, my body dysmorphia, my mental illness, like I'm too broken to be useful. I think the older I get, the more I realize, like, everyone has a thing that could keep them, right? That could keep us from. And that's the tool of the enemy.

to go, yeah, you're just a little bit to this, that or the other thing. And then as cliche as it is going, well, I wish so badly that I had someone who said, you know, like you jacky now, it's not about being straight. It's about being holy. I wish I had someone who'd stand up there and go, yeah, I have bipolar disorder and I've been to the hospital, I've been in the psych ward, and I've made poor decision. but the Lord has not. It's the Lord's faithfulness that sustains me.

I just think, you know, it comes back to the reason why I ended up writing the book, which is that in my own life, these things that I was struggling with felt like they were going to be an off-ramp to my faith, my questions, my doubts, and my suffering. And then I start having conversations, and I'm a young millennial, and those are the things that have served as an offer them to people's faith, is that their questions are too taboo, their suffering is too great, their doubts are too heavy. And I found that in every instance when I've leaned in to those things, not because of me and I'm so great, but because the Holy Spirit has continued to prompt my heart, that again, it unveils the character of the Lord more. And so if me being honest about my diagnosis and the ways that I've struggled and suffered,

and I go, I still believe that, you know, there will be seasons in my life, probably that my mentor or my therapist would say, like, it's not a good season for you to be out preaching. It's not a good season for you to be pouring out into other people right now. like you need to stay home. Like there will be those seasons and that's a healthy thing. But if I can if I can say those things to get people to recognize,

it's not this or that. It's not about the clean legalism that we see, right? So I think legalism ignores the compassion of God. And when we own our suffering and our struggles, that displays the compassion of God. Yeah. I don't want to assume, but it all, it sort of seems as if you, throughout your Christian walk, have grown comfortable with, like, a healthy wrestle, like, wrestling with your faith. And I've spoken to Christians who, when they begin to wrestle, or even have death.

It brings them into a depression or despair when they're when they're doubting the goodness of God or when they have questions. Even when they have questions, it's like, you know, I've heard people say, you shouldn't question. It's like, no, I think God wants our questions. And so I guess how did you arrive to that point where you were okay with wrestling through hard things and hard questions? And what encouragement can you get to other people who have doubts and wrestles?

I have to own up to the fact that I do think it's part of my personality. There's a certain personality test and there's a certain, you know, I'm a very melancholy person. I can tell. I mean, the pink doesn't. No, the pink doesn't have. That's your soul. That's the color of your soul is pink. I just, I've always loved.

sadness, to be honest. But when I discovered that, you know, there's a healthy pull away from that, but then there's also a healthy discovery, I think there's this lie in Christianity that like grief can't coexist with the hope of Christ. And I think in that Mary and Martha and Lazarus narrative, we see that exist. And so it's always been part of my personality. But I think what has made me more comfortable with talking about it is recognizing there are people on the fringes of Christianity. It's like I get this picture of like Western Christianity in this like amphitheater. And then there's people on the outside that are like, I want to go in.

but I have this baggage. And I can't get it through the door. And we're like, I think the Amplith leader has always been, like, people are like, nope, we don't want your baggage. We don't want this. It's going to look messy. It's not going to look aesthetically pleasing. We can't.

And I feel like I'm going, those are my people. Because what the Lord is going to do with that baggage is it, that's a, testimony. Yeah. Yeah. And we don't see it for sake of, again, like, legalism. No, we want to keep the, we want to keep the space clean. We want to keep it easy, tension free.

No. Yeah. That's good. I, before we close, I've been processing 2nd Corinthians 4 a lot this week, where Paul talks about how we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us. And this one, I ain't studied it, is just what I think it means has sat with me. He says, we are always carrying in the body, the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies. For we who live are always being given over to the

death for Jesus sake, given over to death for Jesus sake, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our mortal flesh. And I feel like this is not a common message we hear preach. because I think our messages are hyper victorious, as they should be. We do have victory in Christ, but there's also the constant experience of death. And I think the death looks specific to the seasons that we're in, right? And so whether that's depression, whether that's grief, whether that's the loss of a job. Like, that's a kind of death we're experiencing. And I think God so much wants to show us who he is.

by giving us experiences that kind of are symmetric to his own, which is when you were in that room, what I thought about was Jesus on the cross. And I'm not saying that flippantly. I mean, you are completely isolated. And that's what it was. Like, he's always in this, on this cross by himself, surrounded by people, but very much alone.

And so there's a sense in which you're able to experience Christ's sufferings because of what you've been through, but also experience Christ's life because of what you've been through. And I think that encourages me when suffering feels heavy, which is there has to be some type of death for us to experience some kind of resurrection. And I think that's good news. Yeah. When you were talking to, I thought about 1. Peter 4, 12, about suffering as a Christian.

When Peter says, don't be surprised when the fiery darts come to you to test you, as if something with strangers happening to you. So, you know, one, it feels like God has greatly tested you, you know. But he tests us for our own faith, but also we're ministers for the sake of others. And then it goes on to say, as you're sharing Christ's sufferings, you know, like what I honor it is for you as a woman that God loves, he allowed you to share in his suffering, right? for the sake of others. And so I'm just really encouraged because I know that it's such a huge demographic of people who relates to you, who sees themselves in your story,

who you probably won't even realize until you get to the other side of heaven, who God has used you to snatch out of the fire because he's tested you and you passes those tests. And so I'm just grateful for your life and grateful that you said yes to Jesus. I'm grateful that you're still here, sitting on our couch. Fismuth. So before we close, Brenda's book, can I say that?

We'll be linked in the show notes. I can bring the book? You brought it? It's probably not printed yet. It will be when this comes out. Brenda, can you pray for our listeners and the people who are watching, people carrying all kinds of baggage,

all kinds of stuff, but gifted, called, all the things, useful, but, you know, just needing that extra encouragement to keep going. Yeah, I would love to. God, I'm reminded

of the uniqueness that we serve a God who is also called the man of sorrows. And that we can relate to you in that way in our suffering, God. The fact that we do not have a high priest who is unfamiliar

with the steps that we have struggled to take, Lord. But the truth is and the hope is that for those of us who love you, God, that though we may stumble, we do not fall because you uphold us, Lord. And so I pray for just a comfort and a peace in the midst of the lives of those people who are just struggling, Lord, right now. Lord, where are you? Would you make yourself known to them? Would the peace that transcends understanding be felt and kept? Lord, would our suffering continue to unveil our dependence that we have and that we greatly need? A thing that keeps us running to every day, God, I'm so thankful for opportunities like this,

but Lord, also for the days that you get us safely. to psych wards, Lord, that you get us safely to therapy rooms, that you get us safely into doctor's offices that give us medication, Lord, for the way that you care for your people. I thank you that you have a good plan, even when it doesn't feel good to us, that we can know you have a good plan for our lives, Lord. would you just encourage your people today. Amen. Amen. Before we go, can I quickly pray for you?

I thought it just led to pray for you. And the Lord, we thank you for our sister, Brennan, Lord. We thank you, God, for our life. Like I said, we thank you, God, for a yes. God, I just thank you that you have had your hand on her and that you will continue to have your hand on. God, I pray, God, that you will speak to her. that you will continue to speak to her and to reveal to her, your plan and your will for her life. I pray for a book.

I pray, God, that her book will have increased, that you, God, will touch it and you will bless it. I pray, God, that it would speak to so many people out there who feel hopeless, who feel lost, who feel just driven with despair. God, I pray, God, it will uplift the most unlikely person, Lord. I pray God, that through her book, God, that's so many. Brenna's will raise up, that so many people who don't feel seen, so many people who don't feel heard, God, so many people who are struggling with suicide and depression and bipolar and all kind of mental diseases, Lord, I pray God that you will heal them. And even if you don't heal them, Lord, like Brenda said, I pray God that you, through her book, God, will show them that you are with

him. We thank you. We love you. We believe you for all we have asked in Jesus' name. Amen. Thank you. Bye y'all. With the Perry's, it's produced. by the Perrys with support from Amanda Reed and Channing McBride, video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley, edited by the team at Tread Libly, artwork by Hobb. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.