With The Perrys - Best of WTP: Men, Marriage, Sex, and Kevin Samuels

Episode Date: February 3, 2025

While the podcast is on a break until summer, we're revisiting some of the Perrys’ most popular episodes.Here's an episode from June 2023 with Jackie and Preston's friend Ezekiel Azonwu.   Culture discourages men from being in community, and many men are confused about their call and spiritual giftedness. But guys are crying out for discipleship and voices that are in close proximity to them who will build them up. Let’s talk about it. Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, Saints and Ains. Welcome back to 30 minutes with the Perry's. It's been a while. It's been a minute. It's been a couple months. Yeah, man. We've been doing a lot of things. A whole lot of things.

But we're here. Not testosterone here on this episode. It's Preston Perry. He's a man. And then we have another man. Hey. His name is Ezekiel. Yes, ma'am.

So I'm sitting on the corner like, you know, what's the people that be interviewing people? Like, Lino and all them people. Jay Leno. Yeah, all them. Yeah. I'm sitting on the corner because I'm going to interview y'all, right? Because I'm not male. I just want to talk through just masculinity, fatherhood, manhood, Kevin Samuels, whoever.

Who, R.P. Peace is debatable. But. Yo. I'm just saying, now everybody goes to heaven. We're not universalist. But in God's great kindness, he is able to redeem anybody. He is.

Anywho. So what is? what is on y'all's heart as it relates to men, masculinity? I'll just, I'll make the umbrella very wide. What is on your heart? You want to go first? I just want to say, man, I think it's really important that we're having this conversation. I think from afar a lot of people look into the lives of Preston.

They look into my life and see our families and see us thriving. And we are thriving. I'm not going to put our quotations on that. We're thriving. We love our wives. and we have our struggles, but whatever the case may be, from the outside looking in it seems like it's easy. Seems like we understand it.

I think for the most part, we're figuring it out. However, I think it's really important that we put our ears to the heartbeat of the culture, to the men and to the women and understand what's actually happening right now because I feel like there's extreme attacks happening. And the more we disconnect and find comfort in the nucleus of our family, and in our marriages and with our kids will be more disconnected from what God is calling us to. And I believe he's calling us to his kingdom to build specifically men as men and to share our experience, to share the insight and wisdom as we figure it out, as he's giving knowledge,

wisdom. And I look at you as somebody who is extremely wise and I believe God is granting us wisdom. And if we don't actively pour in to men in this particular pivotal season, I think that we're being grossly negligent and irresponsible with what God has given us? Yeah, yeah, I agree. This last couple of months, I've really felt a burden to pour into the lives of young men more. Because you've said it, we've said it before, but I really believe that there is an extreme attack on men to displace us, to confuse our role. as leaders to discourage us from being in community,

making men feel misunderstood about their call, even in their spiritual giftingness, and just even relationally, like, you know, men, you know, have communicated to me that they felt torn down, that they, you know, in churches when they are not ready to get married, they feel like, man, like it's almost like it's an indictment on my character because I'm not ready to say I do to somebody. And so it's just so many things that I feel like we go through

because, you know, God has called us to be leaders. And so, you know, the enemy knows, you know, if you want to attack a family unit or even a body, you cut the head off the snake. And so, yeah, and so I told Jackie, I had an event in D.C. last week and every single

guy that walked up to me was either crying out for discipleship one guy came to me and literally said I asked five people to disciple me and they all said no

and then he started crying and he was like you talk about discipleship and I follow you because you talk about discipleship but nobody would disciple me another guy walked up to me

and said he just got married and he doesn't know what he's doing his wife got pregnant on a honeymoon like we did And he said, but I don't know, no solid churches.

And I feel this spiritual pressure to get my family in a church. So he has all of this burden as a leader, right? And so a lot of times these guys be out here really stressing themselves out. And it just, they look for other things to relieve their stress because they just need help. And so, yeah, my heart really goes out for, for merry men, you know, single men. are all men really I'm wondering y'all have you've been in Christ

your whole life you've been in Christ about 15 16 years 06 when you examine I guess even the landscape of many of the men that you have conversations with

one are they your age so are these struggles dependent on per generation or is it just kind of like across the board it's across the board it's across the board with that is there

do you see like the, I guess the culture shifting in a particular way? Like even when you think about the discouragement or the temptations or the fears, are they the same fears that men have always been dealing with? Or in this era culturally, is there a different intensity to it? Because I'm ignorant of it. Yeah, what's crazy to me is I feel like my men audience publicly has grown in a particular type of way because I think we all initially had the same audience where we had like black church.

and that was older men. We had the older generation and the younger generation. And then me and Jackie started doing, you know, other things. But then when I got bold TV, when I started to do evangelism videos, men kind of star, my men audience grew. And that's when I started getting all of these younger guys coming to me. And I'm like, yo, these men out here are struggling. You know, and this not even just, when you say culturally,

I'm thinking like, because I have white guys, white men. It's not even like, you know, black church. I don't even mean black. I mean, you know, like for example, even among women, one attack might be, you know, you have to modify your body in such a way to be appealed. I don't think that was a thing in 1991, right? Oh, yeah. And so is there a particular, like, cultural kind of wind that men are being, like, subjected to?

I think it's the disease of social media. Social media has its benefits. but I think with the benefits, we've been exposed to so much more. And so there's this comparison issue that a lot of men are dealing with to see men that are young and successful. Or to see people projecting success, projecting good marriage, projecting perfection, it intensifies that pressure. Like, oh, man, when they find out our ages, it's just like, dang, I'm 35. What do I got? I don't got no kids.

I don't got this going on. And so it intensifies that. And on top of that, it also kind of heightens this desire for more. And not in a not in a way that it makes me say like, you know, no one should want more. But it's almost like when the world opens up in a way like that. Back in the day in the 1940s in your neighborhood, if you saw a beautiful woman, that would be the one beautiful woman you saw for six months. Now it's like there are millions of beautiful women.

Wow. And they're getting with regular guys. guys. And so it's like my eyes start, you know, my eyes don't cease to be open. It's just like, okay, so I got to do this. I got to flex. And so we're getting all this information and we're being bombarded by wrong information. So I think confusion now is at a high. Yeah, because I think what social media has done, social media has made, because social media really hasn't created a lot. It just made everything loud and made everything just like in your face. And so like men, we have a lot of options, but I think a lot of men are being compared to unrealistic expectations.

Who's doing the comparison? Like when you say that, what do you mean? One, I think when, so I've seen particular sites or particular pages where if a standard is presented on social media, you see a slew of comments like, that's why these men ain't out here doing this, so this is not a real man. And that's one thing I hate. Okay. I hate when people would take one thing that a man does and not make them a real man, as if you can define who they are by one action, right? God defines us as men, like one.

And so not the culture, not your standards. Like, God gives us that standard. And so I think, you know, you know, and I think the same thing can be said about women. I think social media allows people to pull from these sources and then compare men to what they think men are through social media. And it's just like, no, like what we need to learn how to be men is in local communities of discipleship, not through social media. And so I think social media just makes things really loud, muddy.

And I think a lot of men who are not disciple can be affected by social media in that way, by listening to voices in the culture, who's telling you who you are from afar and not listening to people in close proximity to build you up. And I think... And that's a good point because every man is being disciples.

Yeah. But what voice is discipling them? Yeah, yeah. If you're bombarded with all of these messages, you're going to form some type of ideology. You're going to form some type of perspective of God, which is a theology based on these multiple voices. And so if that is not like...

I'm getting these same voices. I'm on the same social media, but I have discipleship, which allows me to filter the voice. that I hear. Yeah. If you don't have that filtration system, then you're being disciples effectively by poison.

Yeah, because when I talk to men lately, it's just like, you're coming to me with all these issues, but I wonder how much of these issues have you learned in the context of your local community and how much we have you gotten from the toxic stuff in this culture.

Maybe you need to get off social media. You know what I'm saying? They're really fine. Somebody who can walk with you. But to answer you a question on another thing, another thing that men have told us lately, is they feel like they're there that the culture and society is trying to like over feminize men.

They feel like, I don't know if you remember the conversation we had with the with the guys the other week, but they were just like, you know, one, I think there has been a over emphasis of therapy of men sharing their, you know, their personal feelings, but they feel like a lot of women in the church, you know, what's the word? Give a crutch to... What they were kind of basically saying was it feels like the church is catering to women and ignoring the voices and needs and concerns of men, that the messages are catering to women.

The theology that is being preached is catering to women and it almost kind of marginalizes men, which almost forces them into the... the arms of this Red Pill community that says, finally we're being heard. Finally, someone is speaking to my pain. Because when you hear someone like Kevin Samuel speak, you know that he's been hurt and he's been jaded in some way.

And so for every broken man that wants to get it off his chest, and I've been there to, man, a girl that really did you dirty. And now I can form an ideology and understanding that speaks to my pain. Like, I'm going to navigate to that because the pastor, is not speaking to my pain. Everyone else that has these ideal relationships are not speaking to my pain. So why not someone who finally says,

yeah, you're not all that. Yeah, you shouldn't be rejecting me. Yeah, you shouldn't have, you know, did me dirty. And so it makes it so much easier to gravitate. And let me say this real quick, but let me say this real quick. One reason why I think this was possible is because I think people started to catch whim that if you can, even in the,

Christian community, if you can capture the heart of the female audience, you can make a lot of money. You can be very lucrative. Everybody knows that the female audience buys in and they're committed, right, especially in the church. And so I think a lot of men started to feel like, man, like, they know if they can cater to women in this way, that, you know, the women are the highest consumers of books. Women are the highest consumers of a lot of, like, even our poetry event, our tour. It was what? 65% 70% women, right? And so I think some men have felt like because of that,

like, you know, a lot of times the church has catered more to women than they have to men. And I think in some ways that argument is, you know, it's understandable, right? And I think it's some truth to it. I think the reason why, you know, the whole Red Pill community and these men voices have been so popular, is because it catered to hurt, misunderstood men who felt like the culture and society was stripping their voice away. Wow.

Right? And they was able to disciple these dudes in a lot of toxic ways to be quite frank, but they still felt hurt. It reminds me of Hebrew Israelism. It's like, if I can appeal to the young black man in America who, who's frustrated every time a black body pops up on the internet,

I can feed them our truth because it appeals to their emotion, even at the expense of truth. I think what's really intriguing about that perspective is that, hypothetically speaking, if the church is primarily catering to women, it could be also because women have statistically been the church's primary audience. Because statistically speaking, women usually make up more of the church membership than men do. That's true. But what's intriguing about it is,

is that most men are the pastors. And so I guess my question would be, what even is the reason that men aren't a part of churches? Because the nation of Islam doesn't have a problem getting men. But I just had a conversation last week with a man who is, he's the leader of his men's ministry. And he was like, men don't want to join. They don't want to participate.

They don't want to be active. He was at glory. And he was like, your women are so excited to be here. I have to beg men to come to Bible study. because they feel like if I just came to church with my wife, that's enough. And so maybe women are being catered to because women are more thirsty. Is that wrong? I have a lot of thoughts.

I want to hear it. I want to say something about it before you jump in. I think the nature of women allows them to be attracted to the model of the church and the way the church celebrates and idealizes the person on the stage and the person on the mic. I think in that type of scenario, we need to pay attention. Right. Pay attention to scriptures. It says there are parts of the body that require the type of attention that the scene parts don't require. And I think we miss that to recognize that men are drawn to places where they feel valued or another word for that where they feel needed. If I go into a space and everybody celebrates the pastor, they listen to the pastor. I come in and I can disappear. I can. die and nobody would know. And so I'm not needed here.

In fact, the reverence and respect only goes to one place. I think if we as a church, as a people, men and women begin to recognize that it truly is a body and pay attention to the giftings. When a man comes into that place, how can he serve this community? How can he serve? How can he be recognized as an individual that is coming to contribute value into this place? even if he never steps on a mic, even if he's never seen, could the church incubate and create forms where that men could be used and recognize? See, scripture talks about recognition in the sense that there is a special attention.

There's a particular type of care or attention or reverence that goes to the part that is less seen. And I think we got that wrong in the church. It repels men. Trust me. Let me just say this. So I agree exactly what Ezekiel said. But I also think that we may underestimate how much men want community, right? Because a lot of times a woman can go in a church body and be excited about the worship.

Be excited about, you know, the past of preaching. And there's an excitement. And I don't want to make it seem like women are just like emotional, right? Because I think a lot of women in the church love the Lord and love the body, right? But I think men want connection. Men want more men want discipleship and community than we think. But I think our churches, we don't cultivate those type of environments, right? And so, for example, the same guy that I talked about that came up to me after my show in D.C.,

he said they started going to a church. And he was like, his wife still loves the church. But he doesn't want to go to a church. why because no man in the church want to disciple him right so it's not like he doesn't want to go to the church he wants to be the he wants to learn right and so the way god is wired men god has wired us to be leaders god has wired us to think in a certain way and so if we're coming into an environment and the church is not equipping us to learn how to be men inside of our home what is the need for it we don't care about worship would you we want to learn how to be men would you say that when men come into bodies

And these are all, I don't want to generalize because I'm sure there are local bodies and local communities that are doing this very well. But I think, would you say that the men that get attention are the men who are gifted communicators? Yes.

Yes. Okay. Yeah. For sure. The men that, yeah. I had that in my brain, so I'm glad you said that. More flesh.

Yeah, gift of communicators are those who are celebrated in church atmosphere as well, singers, the worship leader. That's true. And the pastor. The pastor. Yeah.

communicators, yeah, that's it. You know, and in some coaches, the armor bears are like, you know, second in command or whatever, but then men are just there. It says, like, how can we pay attention to the needs of these men? And also, you know, how can we come alongside them and disciple them? And women, how can we incur, like, I don't want to just leave it up to men to disciple men, but also leave it up to the women to not flirt with the first guy that you feel is cute when he comes into church,

but to just speak life into that man. Let him know, like, you're valued in this community. You're needed in this community. Not to stroke his ego, but to encourage him, right? Because a woman's voice is very powerful. Well, maybe what a woman could actively do is be a bridge to connect that man with other worthwhile men. For sure.

And so instead of you being the primary source of encouragement, that's cool. But he needs a brother. Yeah. And he's a father in the faith. And so it's like me actively saying, hey, I've seen you here for a week. Like, you want me to connect you with my friend or my husband or whatever, whatever. But I think that becomes hard when you don't even have a church body where that's a cultural ideal. That's the problem.

I'm going to, let's just be honest. In this, we're in America. We all chasing the dream, chasing the hustle. Most people simply, it's not in our nature to see a man that comes in and says, I'm about to take this. brother under my wing and I'm going to encourage him and I'm going to consult with him and he could look take my number call me anytime we're not doing it bro let's just be honest I think the problem is not that the he said call me any at least that man can identify the lack and his need yeah most men don't desire discipleship because they don't know that that's what they need yeah they they're feeling

and they're trying to fix and medicate self-medicate with their vices and so the do that's out there smashing these women needs discipleship but does not know he needs it. Come on here. And so how do you deal with that? Well, there have to be men that are actively pursuing these men. And I truly believe

it falls on those who know. It falls on those who are equipped. And this is why, you know, I started this whole Band of Brothers thing. The whole idea behind it was I started off me trying to do relationship stuff and trying to match women with men and I realized it was collapsing.

Why? Because it starts with men knowing who they are. Yeah. Before, I don't even want to connect a woman with a man that doesn't know who he is. So I was like, okay, my focus needs to shift on these men. But to develop these men so that they can chase after men. And at this state that we're in, it ain't even one-on-one anymore. If you have some type of clarity and you're learning and you're being disciples, you need about 10.

Yeah, for sure. You need about 10 young men that you're pouring into. That's where we're always that desperate. I just told my wife last week that the Lord had been telling me to disciple this particular young man that's in our life. You know him or whatever. And I was avoiding it because I was like, I just don't want to, I just don't want to disciple nobody right now, nobody else. You know, I'm on the phone with such and such dealing with his problems. You know what I mean?

Yada, yada, yada. But I just felt like the Lord was like, no, like tell Axis dude, do you want to, you know, do you want me to disciple him or whatever? And I did. And he just got emotional. And it also just made me feel bad that I didn't act sooner. I was like, I should have been asked this dude. But dudes want to be disciple.

And I think that if we develop a coach, I know I talk about discipleship a lot because I think that God wants the church to grow a culture of discipleship. I think if we develop it, we'll see a lot more men than the church. We would, you know what I'm saying? And so I, you know, I think we just need more disciples. What has the nation of Islam, Hebrew Israelism, and what is it with Red Peele community?

Is that what it's called? Yeah. What are they doing right that the church isn't? Yeah. So the nation of Islam, their whole goal, I mean, like, the nation of Islam looks completely different than the American church. When you go in the nation of Islam community, the men are at center and the women are kind of in the background in a lot of ways. And so like in a church, it's the pastor and then it's like all of these women, you know.

And so like they just do a really good job of instilling dignity, worth. They feel like they're necessary for their community. You met the nation of Islam people that I've been building with by house on a way from Shur. church. And this man is 23. He's by a house. He's out there every single day, you know, selling bean pies, passing out fruit. And every single time I'm about the Walgreens, I'm talking to this cat. And every single time I talk to him, he talks to me about the state of the black man in America and how the nation of Islam is the only thing in the world that has given the black man a voice. That's what he believes. He believes that the nation of Islam has given the black man a voice to be,

leaders in their home, leaders in their community, right? And in a lot of ways, let's not cap, they are. They are leaders. And they lead well. They lead well in the sense of serving their community, right? And so when I'm over there by Walgreens, I mean, the lady that he's helping to her car every single day looks at him as a leader. Got it.

Right? Right? Looks at him as a pillar in this community. The whole time to give him somebody a false Jesus. Jesus, right? They up there with signs saying that Minister Farrakhan is the new Messiah. Yeah. Right?

And so I think that's the problem when the Christian church do not do a good job of building up leaders. We make other religions look like they're true by the way they build up men. And so I just think that it's an attack of the enemy. It's really strategic. And to the church's defense, it is real easy to be. build up quote-unquote leaders when you serve a false God. I don't think the spiritual opposition

is nearly as much, right? They don't have that spiritual warfare aspect. So we have real demons like, oh, they have the real gospel. We're going to go after their men. Right. We're going to really go after their man, right? And so I don't want to boobo on the church

in that aspect. But I do want to point out the fact that, man, we need to pay attention to how Minister Farrakhan is on a breakfast club, low-key, like being a voice for the hip hop generation because he connects with these rappers in a way that a Christian pastor doesn't.

It's a form of discipleship that if we just learn how to tap into in the Christian church, Christian church can be really powerful if we focus on building up men in a particular way. And it can't be a subset. Like, it literally has to be our folks. to call back men because with the breakdown of men, you have the breakdown of the marriage and you have the breakdown of the family, you have the breakdown of the community, and thus the breakdown of the

church. And so we want to see the church thrive and we're fighting to feed the leaves without addressing this root cause. And I think this, like you said, it's a spiritual thing for sure. The enemy has historically, biblically attacked the boy in scripture. And for what reason? because we know that God has called that man to be a leader, to be a pillar, to be a backbone in the community and in the church. So I think it should be a 911. Like we all need to put our hands like, women can't sit back and say, yeah, get these men together.

Nah, it's like we all need to be praying. Yeah. We all need to be rallying. And we all need to be celebrating these efforts, making noise about these efforts and creating culture around discipling men. It's important. And then this is the reason why, I'm excited about this tour.

And this is not to plug the tour, but if it does plug it, great. But the reason why I'm excited about this tour is because I think men, we are going to address some toxic things in the culture concerning men. I don't want to act like we're not. But it's not going to be a place where men or women are torn down at all. Amen. But I do think men need to stop hearing how much they suck. Right. And I think they need to know that, man, some of the ideologies and some of the things that you adopt from the culture is problematic.

But man, here is how the Lord wants to shift you. And I feel like if we can point them to a body in a community that can raise them up, I really think that we'll see a lot of men be encouraged. Because I don't think what men need is only correction. I think that they need to be corrected, but also build up. the faith. And I think that this tour would do that when we point out, because I think a lot of times we see the issues, but we don't see the root manifestation of these issues. And so the root manifestation is that not these men are trash. These men don't want to commit. These men are bogus. These men are this. It's no, it's deep hurt. It's deep wound in this. It's deep deception. It's deep, you know, all of these issues that I feel like we never get to the root cause. And so, you know, men just hear how much they suck, suck, suck

because people are only focused on the manifestation of a lot of the foolishness that they're putting out there and them not going to church, but they're not getting to the nitty gritty. Like, why do you feel rejected? Why don't you feel heard? And so I feel like this tour is going to do a good job of getting to that.

And how can we build them up and how can we have the church come along side being to make them feel like they're wanting in the community? That's good. So Kevin Samuels, when he popped out, I feel like he kind of, and I could be wrong, but it feels like he opened the door for a lot of podcasts, a lot of content that feels hyper-masculine.

And by I mean hyper-masculine, I mean inordinately, unbiblical, kind of this establishing of leadership in a way that feels like you're superior or dominant in a way that doesn't look like Jesus. And I can, I think, listen to you. y'all, I can see how that is appealing because it's a way to reestablish dignity and leadership that may not actually include gentleness and humility, right? So I guess my question would be, can y'all define for us what masculine leadership actually is

so that people have a vision for it, which also also corrects even wrong visions or understandings of leadership that aren't right? Does that make sense when I'm trying to ask? Yeah, you explain that really well. I don't. You just don't want to answer the question. One. Like what are they supposed to be looking for? Because if they got all these options and these alternatives,

like some men might think that's authentic leadership for you to be in control of everything that your wife does and for her to not have any say about what she wears or where she goes. Like that's actually abusive. Yeah. One, one I want to just say this. I'm not saying that. Okay.

So I'm not saying before I answer that, what like biblical masculinity looks like. I want to just address the Kevin Samuel's thing. And before I say this, I don't want to make it seem like that if you're not married and leading a home that you cannot give certain advice, right? That you cannot point to man in any aspect, right? But when we look in scriptures,

one of the qualifications of being a leader in the church, right, a voice in the community, right, an elder, right? It's being able to lead your home well. It means wife, children, and then that's how we know that you have the right qualifications to be a voice in your local community, your church, elder, right? And I think a lot of times when we hear men, don't listen to what a man says, listen to what a man models. And Kevin Samuels wasn't even married, first of all, right? So he wasn't even, like, he didn't even show us, even through social media that he knew how to lead a family. But he was, he was, he was pouring, all of his, this marriage advice, right?

I think, I don't know the man personally, but it seemed like out of his woundedness. And so a lot of wounded man flocked, I believe, to Kevin Samuels because he catered to their woundiness, which was automatically problematic, right? Which he probably said some true things, right? And people, oh, well, that was true. False theology is always going to be sprinkled with a little bit of truth. one. But I think the main person to look to look at is Jesus. And Jesus wasn't

married, but he was the son of God. So he, right? Yeah. Right. And so he was married to us, his church. And I think what Jesus did, Jesus came and modeled Christ-like sacrificial love that was both the gentle and

firm when he needed to be, right? And so he was kind, especially when he treated the way he treated women. And so when Ephesians 5, tell us to husbands, love your wives like Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her. I say this all the time. Christ loved the church before the church loved him. And he modeled Christ's like sacrificial love even when the church rejected him. And so I think what Christ-like masculinity looks like is it is both lion and lamb. It is both firmness and gentleness. And so it is not,

It is not one extreme over the other. It is not being overly, you know, emotional. And it is not being overly domineering, not being domineering at all. It is like, how can I lead my home? How can I be a leader in my community by, one, leading by example, by loving people in a gentle and a kind way and allowing my voice to be heard in gentle and respectful ways? And so I think a lot of times in the culture, is he the one side of the extreme? You have to be extremely passive to be accepted by some

or you have to be extremely domineering to feel like you've got to be accepted by women. You should teach. But I think Jesus came and balanced and showed us this beautiful balance of correcting the Pharisees, being firm with truth, being bold in how he proclaimed his father.

But at the same time, crying. when Lazarus, like weeping when Lazarus died, right? Showing this vulnerability in this openness, right? And so I think he balanced both of them. And so I think when we look at Jesus, we see that God wants us to be both this lion and lamb in a beautiful way. And I think one of the things, that was beautiful, man.

That was excellent. One of the things that has risen in this whole red pill understanding is finding women that are easier, to manipulate, to control. A lot of men are being pushed. They call them passport bros. If you guys, I'm introducing all types of stuff. It's saying, hey, women in America are difficult.

Go ahead, go across the seas and find a woman that will cook, clean, and will never talk back. That will allow you to get other women because they understand and having multiple wives is part of routine. You've never heard of that, right? Yeah, I've heard of that. You ever heard of, I think I told you about that. Yeah. So men want like maids? So here's the thing.

Even beyond that extreme, let's just scale it back. I was triggered. I'll put it like that. Yes, they do. Okay. But let's scale it all the way back to men that have been broken, period, want to deal with the type of broken women that don't challenge their own brokenness, that don't mirror their own brokenness in a way that challenges them,

but rather caters to their broken in a way that makes them. feel superior or allows them to avoid or escape what they need to do to step up as a leader. And so, I mean, we've heard it all before. I mean, can we go there? Yeah, please. Yeah, I know what she's going to say. Go. Okay.

So there have been a lot of men that say, you know what, I'm not even going to deal with black women. They got attitudes. They talk back. Or American women or in general Africans. I was told when I married my wife when I first got with her, there was one of the ladies in the church saying, you let your daughter. Oh, no, you let your son.

I'm sorry, you let your son marry an American woman. How can you do that? She would divorce him because there's this understanding that, hey, look, American women are difficult. They run to divorce and all this stuff. And so while there may be some truth to some of the things that they're saying, the idea is that connect yourself with the type of woman that provides the least resistance as possible. That would be the most acquiescent to your, your issues to abuse, like that will stick with you no matter what.

And historically, even African homes, I don't care what the dad did. Mama's staying with them. And so that's this idea, like go across the seas because you're not going to find a person that's going to stick it out in the marriage in America. So it's this idea, like, I love that you said that, man. In scriptures, it tells us that Jesus Christ died for his church while we were yet sinners. So we're dealing with a problematic situation and Jesus leaned into the problematic situation.

And that is the challenge for the leader, for the disciple. Hey, are we looking for the least resistant? Yeah. That makes us less like Jesus. Yeah, yeah. I have a question with that though. Because I wonder if someone could hear you say that and be like, oh, so you're telling me I'm supposed to just go after difficult women then?

Right. So what is the wisdom, like practically speaking, if he's supposed to reorient even his pursuit of a woman or have a type, what is he supposed to do if not to go after women that you get him what I'm saying? Yeah, well, what I'm saying?

I think... Great question. I think don't hinder who God really has out there, has, has, what am I trying to say? Don't hinder or stop the person that God really wants you to be with because you're looking for something easy, one because marriage is not easy

right a lot of times we say we want to be sanctified we want to be made in the image we want to be conformed in the image of Jesus Christ and not really realizing that God is going to take the most intimate relationship to do so and so when you look for a yes woman what you're saying is I don't want to be like

the son of God who came to love a difficult church that's exactly what you're saying because the church we're a mess right but God is committed to us and so if you want to go out there and this is the reason why a lot of men end up marrying somebody who's a maid but not a friend. Bro.

I'm going to throw something your way and I want you to answer. This is the reason why she's washing your clothes. She's doing everything that you want her to do. But you don't want to talk to her. She easily irritates you because she don't even like her. That's what I want to get to. Thank you for going there. You don't even like her.

Bro, I've talked to several married men who told me that they don't like their way. wives. I asked them, well, are you at least friends with your wife? You're like, friends. I bet they do, I bet they do everything for them, though. They do everything for them, though. Can I say something? You make enough money to marry a maid. I mean, to hire a maid, I mean, and then marry a friend, right? If you want, if that's what you want, and so what you really want is somebody to cater to your egos. And your brokenness. Your brokenness. Yeah. Because you didn't get that to Jesus. Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead.

Can I say something? I have thought it a bit interesting that it does seem like some men enjoy men more than they enjoy women, but they marry women because they're supposed to, but their affections, their time, their energy, their vulnerability is giving space for men more than, so that's a thing? There's multiple answers to that. Like you like hanging with your buds. Well, some of them might be struggling. I'm not saying they're gay. I'm not saying they're gay.

Some of them might be. Yes, for sure. But I want to, yeah, you want to, you want to talk with that first? There are multiple things that are going on there. But I think a lot of times people are, I don't understand that marrying a friend is important. It's really important to marry someone who can walk with you. Marriage is a journey. If you can only tolerate her in bed, if you can only tolerate her to look at her,

her in photos or to touch her physically, you're going to have a hard time dealing with some because you're not going to feel romantic all the time and I don't care how high your sex drive is. You're not having sex 24-7. You've got to pay bills with this person. You've got to raise kids with this person. You've got to have conversations with this person.

You've got to walk with God in and out of the ups and downs of faith with this person. If you can't tolerate them to sit down with them, look them in an eye and say, homie, can we just talk as friends? Let's put, you know, lay our rings down real quick and just, I need to talk to a friend right now.

If I cannot find that in my home, that's a very tragic situation. That's miserable. That's really good. But can I also say this? Man, there's so much that I want to say right now, but I'm a ridling in. I want to say this too.

Like, I think people don't understand how emotional, like, me and our emotional creatures too. For sure. We're very emotional creatures, right? And what happens is when when society tells us that we have to look for a yes woman to marry That's not a friend that we can express ourselves to Right and so we look for that in in male groups And like and so we can it doesn't look overly emotional, but it is right?

It's like let me go and vent because I can't do it at home And so this is the reason why I love that I have friends Who knows I love love y'all, but y'all don't come before Jackie. Wow. Y'all just don't. And I know he doesn't come. Like, if me and him have plans and then Kianna call, I won't even get mad.

Like, I know dudes, listen, I know dudes who get mad at each other when they go do things with their wives. I'm like, if that's not the most. What? Yes. Nah. Bro, I know. Like, bro, man, you always. But it's never like, it's never like overly, you know.

Well, that's kind of even the thing where they'll say, like, you soft because you talk about your wife. Or you, yeah, they mask it as, oh, you always talking about your wife, or you always cakeing, oh, bro, you don't want to hang with the boys. It's like, no, like, we don't even do that with one another. No. If we got plans and you come to me and me like, Kiana want to do, I'm like, oh, I understand.

Yeah. Because I know that's your best friend. That's my homie. That's his wife. But it's more than just wife, though. Ah, yeah. It's their friends. His companion, yeah.

Everybody knows you're my friend. And so like I'd rather be with Jackie Did any of y'all Negroes Wow I thought you were gonna say the other one I was I would have said it If he wasn't doing a podcast Right isn't that and two become one

My friend LB is the same way Yeah You're the same way I'm the same way You know what I'm saying And so I think that like People don't under I know we beat the dead horse here

People don't understand The significance of marrying somebody That you like And then when you marry somebody Who just only gonna do things for you It just messes up everything Wow. And what is intimacy beyond just there is the physical component, which is extremely important, and we don't want to dismiss that. But it's also a meeting of the minds. If we can't connect emotionally and mentally, I think when we talk, we look at scripture and we limit it. Oh, and two become one.

We got rings on and we have sex. Right. It's like, nah. So you think that that's what got. That's it. Well, then. Well, holistic beings. It wasn't just talking about sex. Look at, look at scripture. Jesus said, even when he was washing their feet, one of the most intimate things you could do. He was like, now you can call me friend. And what is he mirroring? The very, this is the manifestation of the foreshadow of marriage. I'm teaching you that this is what, this is the goal. Friendship in this intimacy between the groom and his bride.

Friendship is the goal. Man. And so when Jesus called them to friendship, it was the elevation. It's one. It's one. Because most people think, man, a lot of men. A lot of men look at women as like an asset to meet their goals, their personal goals, to reach their what they want to do. And it's like, no, like the goal is actually what you said.

It is, it is close intimacy, right? It is, it is what Adam saw when he first saw Eve. The first human words recorded in the Bible was a poem. This had last is bone of my bone, flesh in my flesh. You should be called woman because she was taken out of a man. like he saw somebody that he can love, not somebody who he can like become successful. But somebody might argue, but she's my helper though.

She, she is a helper. Because the ultimate goal is to glorify God, right? And so we're put together to glorify God and to give his name glory. And so she was created to help him, to help humanity do that. You know, humanity wasn't complete until she came, right? But relationships have never been one-dimensional

from the beginning of time. That would be the argument to that. But what I was going to say is we help, like we glorify God the most when we are close. When we are connected, when we are one, when we are friends, like when we, when our relationships mirrors Christ's relationship with his church and mirrors Christ's relationship with his father,

they like and love one another. And so we don't like and love one another. How can we glorify God who is communal, who always love one another for all of eternity. And so, like, yeah. That's good. I like that. I really like that.

I like that. Okay. You got any more questions? Oh, I have a lot. But we running over. I will, I'll ask this. What is your advice to men or your thoughts? I'll say your thoughts for men who feel sexually unsatisfied and are starting to

consider alternative ways to get that need met. Father. Father. That was the first thing I was going to touch on, but we went in another direction. Just my concern for men is lust, but you can go first. It's a lot to be said in this particular area. And we got to be, so I just want everyone to know all listeners. We're speaking from the men's perspective.

And so I think far too often because there are two perspectives to consider, to attempt to try to accommodate the other perspective, we minimize the necessary perspective of a man when it comes to sex. And we're talking about needs. There was an argument that went forth a woman who was a therapist or counselor said, men need sex.

And it was a big uproar. Like, men need sex. Because to a certain extent, it's just like it's not a biological need. You can exist without it. If you're a single man and God didn't call you to marriage, then you don't need sex.

But I think what was being missed in that is in a loving relationship between a husband and a wife, I think far too often the physical intimacy dynamic that should be reverence in that way is often diminished as this is an extracurricular activity that you like, but it's not that important. It's not that serious. and I think it's disconnected from the emotional side. I think sometimes a woman can say, okay, yeah, I know you want sex because you're just horny. And maybe sometimes.

But in a loving relationship between a man and a wife, that man's ultimate way of expressing that I have, my desire is for you and I want the most closeness with you is in that function of physical intimacy, of just being touched and feeling wanted in a marriage. And I think so many times that's miss, I don't know, it's not handled well in conversations. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

When I think about this issue, I think about two things. I kind of think about what you just said, but I also think about just the idea of lust and how the enemy wants to destroy us by using lust. And I think what the enemy in our flesh Our flesh desires good things Right I think what a man What a man ultimately wants

Before marriage and in marriage is intimacy Yeah closeness, oneness I think God created us to want that I think what the enemy does He doesn't create anything He just perverts emotions Perverts desires And so when I think about lust

I think the enemy has perverted our desire that were originally pure to make us to try to spiritually and emotionally kill us. Wow. I think men are attack with us to become spiritually and emotionally dead, right? In the sense that the way we think about sex and intimacy, a lot of times it's perverted and it's not, it's not natural, right? And so the culture teaches us that women are objects. Wow. Right.

And they are, they are, there are means in which we have to get an it scratched, which is the reason why pornography is so demonic. Yes. Because it shows, you know, and it's also a prideful thing. I talked about this when we did the whole pornography thing. It's men who have been rejected going to watch something, watching men. who are not getting rejected, men looking highly desirable by another woman. So it feeds a pride.

It feeds, right, which is a pervert. It's a perverted version of what God, like, desired from us. And so I think a lot of men come into marriage and coming to the church with a very skew, perverted view of intimacy because the enemy and our flesh has appealed so much to our lust. Wow. And so one, we have to just rewire our minds of what the culture and what society has told us about ourselves, has told us about women, and it's told us about how we get these desires because they're not necessarily needs, their desires. Wow. And desires are not evil the way we go about it can be, right? And so I think that men really need to be disciples in that way to say, man, what you, what you, what you, what you, what you.

you've learned about a woman body, and even what you've learned about your own body, is wrong. Jeez. It's wrong. And I think, I think oftentimes, just like you said, man, it's such a self, we have selfish motives. We come to the table of intimacy and we come, we approach like consumers. We approach like carnivores, ready to just, you know, to satisfy oneself.

But we don't come to the table to share. Yeah. And we don't care. You know, I always asked this question in my mind to God. Like, why it just, why does it seem like you pair married couples unevenly? Like you give this man, this high desire for sex and you give him a woman or it seems like women just naturally seem to desire sex but want it differently or want it at different levels. Like, why?

And I think it has a lot to do with this journey and the way he's called us to. to approach like, well, if my wife desires to be catered to, to be loved, to have kindness poured on her, and that is our route, then I'm going to love herself sacrificeally and find ways to love her in ways that we can share intimacy. And for my wife, she has to see that. And so when we come to the table, we're both coming to the table ready to feed each other, not ready to feast off each other in the sense that in the same way that we have to kind to be mindful that God created are women differently.

And we're not going to, we cannot, like, why would we be okay consuming sex at her expense? Yeah. Is it sex really desirable? No, it's not. If she doesn't want it? Nope. Like, it was like, well, it shouldn't be. It shouldn't be.

But if, but if, but if, but if, but if you have been so conditioned by the culture to, to say, man, this woman exists for me to get my physical needs. It's mad and for me not to meet her at a place where we both can enjoy each other. Yeah. You're okay with that. Man. Right? But if you're not okay with that, your wife not enjoying it deeply affects you.

Someone said, I kind of slightly disagree and I gave my opinion. They said women have been taught by society and the church, which I agree with, that sex is purity culture. You know, sex is bad and men need it and women don't need it. So what's been happening is women have had these high desires. and they've been over time gradually suppressed because of doctrines and false ideas that have come about sex that make it feel wrong. So when they get to the place where it's time to express, they don't initiate and things like that. And so the conversation was about initiation. And I was like, I agree with that.

I feel like when I've seen it happen many times when people have had these ideas about sex, they come to the table and they're just like, well, if it's wrong, then I'm not going to know how to initiate because I've been told it's wrong. But I also feel like the other side of that, which I think is more. important is we're all of us men I just said very loud every man wants his wife to initiate sex often however I think that to have that

expectation is to expect a wife to approach sex like a man does and so we're expecting her to be assertive and lead in this particular area and no other area to assertively lead in an area that they really been called

or more natural, they're natural responders. Yeah, yeah. They respond in love. They respond in kinds. And it's like, why don't you just, why don't you, you know, jump to sex? Why don't you just throw it on me? Well, you're trying to tell your wife to be a man. However, while it is important and while it's good, I think we have to train each other in a sense for each other.

Basically, how you're serving her to not get what you want, but to meet her at a place, right? meet her at a place. And so now it's not, hey, I just want you to initiate, but I want you to learn me while I learn you. Yeah. I want to serve you as you serve you. Let me say this too because I, because I- She had her hand her for a long time.

Because I- He doesn't care. Honestly, Ben. Let me just say this real quick and I'm going to pass it to you. Because one, I talked about how, I talked about how men, like, like, lust is making us, the enemy is trying to use lust to spiritually and emotionally kill us. I truly believe that. But I think my encouragement to women would be don't treat us how the culture has defined us.

If a man comes to you and you feel and you're turned off because you feel like he's emotionally not there or he's spiritually not where you want him to be, treat him like what God says he is. And I think a lot of times in our culture, men are not, men can be built up by women in ways. I really don't think that they can. I think that women come all the time with their frustrations and their complaints instead of, let me be a woman of God in a way that will come to a man and treat him

how God says he is. And I think, you know, me and Ezekiel was talking the other day and we were talking about how like sometimes when people see our relationships online, people say goals. Yeah. People say this and people say this. and people say that.

And it's just like, no, like, we wasn't always the man we were. But we are very much a product of a good woman who helped us get to a place, right? And so what a good woman does is if you love him well in some ways and don't meet him with frustration and encourage him, not by his actions all the time, but, but treat him like you know, like he's the man that God called him to be. I think a lot of men will see a lot of their problematic, you know, issues, and he can grow, right? That's good. And so I think, yeah, don't, if, that's because a man acts emotionally dead, don't treat him emotionally dead. That's good.

Yeah, I like that. What I was going to say is, I was just going to confirm that Ezekiel's perspective is valid. I was listening to a podcast the other day by a sex therapist, and he was talking about how there are two different desires that people don't understand. are at play in our sexual relationships, which is that statistically more women usually have what's called receptive desire and more men have what's called initiative desire, which means that we all know this, but men are just ready to go. Right?

And so they are prone to initiate because they're ready. But a woman usually has initiative or a receptive desire, which means she's a neutral. And it's the man's job to bring her to go, right? And so I think that is interesting because it helps, one, the woman not to feel like something is wrong with her because she's not turned on as often as her husband. It's nothing wrong with you. It's just that he has to lead you to the place that he's at. And so I think that already puts couples in a position of interdependence, which I think is what God has called us to.

Yeah. And I think it initiates pursuit, right? It initiates this picture of Christ of Christ pursuing his church. But I think, not to interrupt you, I'm sorry. But I think like me and you were talking about, I think what burden that puts on the woman and a good burden, Christ, you know, my yoke is easy. My burden is like Christian discipleship has burdens.

But I think what burden it puts on the woman is you have to make a decision to respond to the leadership, right? And so I think there's a lot in the yes, right? Right? So if he's trying to bring me and guide me to go, if I'm always saying, no, I need to ask why. Right? So is it that I need healing or is it that I need humility? And I think when you dig into both of those, then I think that helps us to work through sexual issues. Healing and humility can go a long way. Yeah. We can start getting under these sheets.

Hey, come on now. And but here's the thing. I was going to say something else, but. Hey, bro, can us, because we've talked about this before I just wanted to drop that. want you in everybody bed when you ain't married. And he wants you out of the bed when you is married. That's what they say. My wife has explained. And God wants us to get in them sheets. My wife has explained. Sex is like ice cream for her. She's like, she's at the same time.

I enjoy ice cream. I actually love ice cream. But I live without it. Yeah. I'm like, what I'm like. What? Yeah. That makes no sense to me. That's literally what I say. I say it's like cake. Like when I eat cake, I like cake. But I just don't. But it's also, but it's also. But it's also. It's like water for you.

No. It's also like it. It's sexy. It's kind of like water in a little way. I need it. Y'all just say y'all don't need it. But what I'm saying is it's not just, it's not, because I'm being literal here.

But if cake was in the house every single day, you will be tempted to eat it every single day if you liked it. I'm in this house every single day. And you ain't tempted. That's funny. You know what I'm saying? to get out of them sheets every single day. I have receptive desire.

You have receptive desire. So there is emotional, something emotional there that we have to kind of like, you know. That's what I said. The, the, the, the, if you have receptive desire, then if you're trying to bring me to go, that means that the, the, my job, my burden, my duty is to respond to the leadership. You mean for, you mean. And if my response is always no, there is something there that needs to be interrogated. That's all I'm saying.

No, no, no. We've actually grown. So I prays God. For sure. Because I'm, you know. And I think this is a conversation that needs to be had. Because it is a twofold conversation because you're talking about responding and reception. But if a man is, is, like, so there's responsibility.

I want to put it like that. There is like you said, light bird. There's responsibility for the man to lead. And the burden of the responsibilities on that man to lead if she is called to respond. And I think to emphasize, hey, if he's, if he's leading. I like what you said, if he's. if he's leading or if he's trying, I think that needs to be acknowledged with patterns.

I would say, hey, this is you leading and this is me responding. What frustrates men is men are so logical and basic. It's like, man, I did this, I did this, I did this, and I got these results. It's not working. You can't say no after, that's how we think. And because I think I've had that feeling so much,

especially when I was, when I first got married. It's just like, no, like, one, I didn't give you a, like, there's no remedy to make your wife do what you want to do. Because one, she's nuanced. And a lot of times God gives us nuanced women because he wants us to depend on him more. Yes. Right? And so it wasn't until like I stopped looking at these, okay, step one, step two. I think Jackie can really like step three.

You know what I'm saying? It wasn't a stop doing that. said, Lord, help me. Yeah. I don't understand this woman. Would you help me? Because you created. You can help me.

Yeah. Right? And so I think that God wants men to depend on him more than we depend on strategy. Patience and compromise in that area is necessary for men. Because, you know, can I be honest? So before when I used to get rejected by my wife back in the day, she didn't understand that now is different. She didn't understand what the value of sex was to me.

And I used to feel rejecting. I used to run to porn as a way. to kind of self-medicate from that rejection. She didn't know I felt like I was real. I never cried to my wife until I finally admit it. Like, man, I feel like you don't love me. I feel like you don't want me. And she was baffled at that idea.

And I think, like, get into the place where things can be communicated on the man's part and also on the woman's part because if we know that men think like this, help them out by kind of sharing, hey, this is just one of those days and this is why it's one of those days. but also on the other side of that, this is going to be the most controversial thing that I say. And y'all can fight me on it. There may be days that just naturally you don't want to respond.

And I think on those days, call on grace for patience. Respond what? Respond if she doesn't want to, you can't force her. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you got to be able to understand. Like, there are nights I go to sleep in heat. There are some nights I go to sleep in heat because, maybe my wife says she got a headcoat or she's tired

or she don't feel like it or you know she's on you know the time of the month whatever the case may be I have to learn how to build this understanding I'm not being rejected that's number one I love her she loves me and I'm compromised and I'm patient and I love her period but then on the other side of that because I've been attacked for this or I've seen this attack

I've seen this attack before if a woman doesn't feel like it or just doesn't want to in a particular day or instance I think as much as we're calling on grace and we're fighting, you know, I think on the other side,

there should be also a fight there that says, you know what, naturally and instinctively, I'd probably say no, but I love you. So I might do something, I might rub you back, I might try to do something

to let you know that I see you. Like, I think there should be kind of this. I had a friend, I had a friend a couple weeks ago that said, man, my wife don't even know like how much I would just appreciate a back rub when I came home.

I came on and told you I was like, yeah he was just like, I would just like, she don't even know like a back row but we like, man. Has he told her? He told after I told him to.

Okay. Tell her that. She doesn't even know. Why? You know? And yeah, I think men are emotional creatures. I think the way we express it

looks different. And I think that if if people would treat us how God says we exist and not how the culture, I think a lot of men will feel the freedom to come out and bloom. And I'm going to stay in this cocoom. And I think some of it is you have to show us, you know, because you, I remember the first time you cried to me.

I hated it. It was, you hated it, but I needed to see it that you were a whole person, right? And so, or when we had conversations about, you know, if I did reject you, or not even reject you, if I rejected sex, because I would often say, I'm not rejecting you. I'm rejecting it. Because I was, it was weird. I was like, she don't want to have sex with me, but she wants to get into bed and put her foot on my back and talk to me.

Like, get your foot off me! It's like, why we just can't go more? Put your legs together. Like, you like me? You love me? Can't understand it. But again, receptive desire. Because to me, you wanted to go to 15

when me touching you and being intimate while watching a movie would actually get me to 15, even if it's slower. And then they come. It would get me there. And then they take showers and we. They?

With the women, you. I'm not a pronoun. They'd be smelling good. And I'm like, why are you? Anyway, the whole point is, the whole point is that as you showing us your humanity and explaining your complexities also allows us to respond to you as you are. And so if you only project strength, if you only project, you know, self-sufficiency. If you only

project like I'm the Hulk, I'm gonna treat you like that. Wow. He ain't the Hulk. I'm gonna give him some. What? What are you talking about? Anyway. I gotta go pick up the kids. Ronisius. So any closing thoughts? Anything that you want to say

that you haven't said? I want to say that me and Ezekiel, we had like a live event the other day and a lot of people, well, not a lot of people, but some young men who are not married express the fact that they feel like

I don't represent single men as well as I do, married men or women even. And they felt they express how they didn't feel heard about me. And that's just so far from the truth. If you're a man who's heard this and didn't hear me speak up from men, I really do have a heart for the brothers. And I think God is really shifting me to even targeted men more in my ministry.

And I just want the man to know, listen to this podcast. One, you don't have to run to the nation of Islam or Hebrewism. Like in the body of Christ, your voice is valued. You are important and you are necessary to not only the body of Christ, but to a godly woman, a family. like we like society needs us it just doesn't want us it needs us and so you're needed and you're necessary and so you know uh that's all i want to say yeah i love that and i think this is my heart to heart for the brothers man i think so many times we're misunderstood and we're you know

we're labeled as men because we we have beards and we're at the age of accountability and Sometimes we're gifted, we're wise, and we have knowledge, some of us. But I think some people underestimate sometimes that the boy in us is unheeled, unspoken to, unseen. And I think oftentimes when you see grown men act out in their vices, you know, their players, or, you know, they don't trust nobody, or they're violent and they're aggressive, oftentimes we're seeing tantrums from the boy. It has never been seen that hasn't been heard, that had been rejected, that had been abandoned. And it's so, so, so easy to call those men out, to critique those men, to judge those men, to blame those men when what should be happening is instead of looking at those leaves, speak to the root, speak to the boy, affirm the boy, see what God wants to do in the boy.

And I think that we're talking about the conversation of value. And this is what, that's the part of the man that wants to be disciple, boy in him that wants to know what it's like to be a man of God. And how the same way Jesus called children to himself, the only ones that are going with him that are going to be translated into glory is not the preacher. It's not the poet, Preston Perry. It's the boy. It's the son. That's my baby. That's that's my son. And until we get to a place where we're willing to, even as married, as married people or as sisters in the church or as pastors, if we can identify that boy,

speak to speak healing towards that boy, speak growth, you know, rally around to support and strengthen and build up that boy, we are no better than the Kevin Samuels. We're no better than those that are speaking to, you know, that broken place that are exacerbating the wounds

instead of tending to them. And I think we have to see it like that. Otherwise, dismissive of what these men are really going through. They're not just men that, you know, want six figures and not just men that don't know how to deal with women. They are boys that have not found their way. Yeah.

That need direction. Yeah. Yeah. And if I can say one last thing, I know we're going over. Like, a lot of arguments and frustration happens through social media on certain pages. And for the, I want to just address the godly women. out there because I know a lot of women listen to this podcast and I want to just encourage you guys to not meet men woundedness with your woundedness like like meet them at a place of your out of your

out of your out of your you being healed by God because I think that we miss each other when we come in when we when we approach a man of how all the men in our past have wounded wounded wounded us and we don't really see the potential of that man because we're we're we're approaching his woundiness with ours. And it's like if you don't look at man through the lens of that, like I think that we have to struggle both men and women to really see the opposite sex, how God defines us. And so I think when we do that, men and women relationship from a brother and a romantic standpoint, which is growing flourish. Amen. Amen. You guys are great. One. Bye. With the Perry's is produced by the Perrys with support from Amanda Reed and Channing B.

Pride. Editing by Xavier Fairley, video recording and audio production by Kim Powell, artwork by hop, and music by swoop. If you'd like to support The Perrys, you can visit the link in the show notes. This is with the Perrys. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.