With The Perrys - Best of WTP – That Time We Broke Up... Twice

Episode Date: August 3, 2026

With The Perrys is taking some time this summer to revisit popular episodes from years past. Jackie and Preston's relationship has had plenty of twists and turns. From long distance dating to a group trip to the Caribbean, things didn't get off to a smooth start. Jackie broke things off...twice. Preston admits he had a lot to learn about leading well, and together they look back on what they'd do differently. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Monday to y'all wherever you are if you're driving in your car if you're washing dishes if you're we have a lot of people that like watch this on YouTube with like their friends and they take notes and things I've been saying a lot of people like record record them like listen to our podcast that's like taking walks like on trails yeah that's really nice yeah I'm like I'm not one of them people I would stress my own self out listening to me like I wouldn't be able to pay attention to nature but I do appreciate you inviting us into your self-care regiments or as a regimen.

I don't know. Anyway, you see the blush on my face? You happy to see me? Is that what it is? No, it's makeup. You see the blush on my face? Black people don't blush. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's nice. Okay, because blush, I've been trying it out because it makes me feel alive. You look cute. I appreciate it. What was I fin to say? I don't got nothing to open with.

You got something? When we just go into the conversation? Okay. So we want to talk about the time we broke up. It was rough. Why? Because you put me through it. I.

See, what we're not going to do is open. No, no, no, no, you put me through it. Let's talk about it. We're not going to refocus the energy on. Yes, I'm the victim here. Go ahead. I'm the victim. What happened?

So, man, the first time me and Jackie got, well, the first time I got invited to do poetry outside the country. I was actually dating Jackie and we got invited to do poetry. I think it was like how many days, six or seven days in Trinidad and Tobago and I'm so excited. I'm like yo, I'm thinking about proposing to this girl soon. We're gonna be in Trinidad, it's gonna be beautiful, we're gonna see like mangoes hanging from trees, you know what I'm saying?

I ain't something from the south side of Chicago. What they do that? You know what I mean? And like we got there, you know, and we get there, you know, and we get stuff. settled in and Jackie just completely shuts down. I'm like, what did I do? And so like, everybody asks me as Jackie, okay?

Okay, so let's pause. Let's rewind. What? Because if this was a movie or a documentary, you just fast forwarded to minute 20. Okay, okay, okay, okay. We need to let's pull it in. Let's reel it in.

I appreciate you getting straight to the point, but we at least got to make this 30 minutes. What did I leave out? You didn't move this right. What did I leave out? So chapter 17. Okay, let's back up. So we started dating.

Okay. Maybe 2000. I was 23. So that's probably 2021 when we started dating. Because we got married when I was 24. We were only dating and engaged for a year and a half. Okay. Yeah, I think he was 22.

Okay. So we started dating. I moved to Chicago. That's the first time we broke up. Okay. when i moved to chicago oh yeah let's talk about that i was a victim there too so listen jackie was living in st louis right and we started dating long distance and you know my pastor at the time was like yo i kind of see you and jackie working like i see your personality i see

her personality i don't really think a lot of dudes can like deal with jacky but i know you can yada yada and And I'm like, yeah, I really like this girl. Like, you know what I'm saying? He was like, I'm going to give her a job in Chicago. So what he did was he got, I think he was working at Wendy's in St. Louis. And he was like, yeah, I'm going to get Jackie a job. Chicken, bacon, frosties, sour cream, and shy potatoes, small, chili, medium, large chili.

So you remember the menu, right. I worked there for six years of my life. By the way, the meat is real. I'd be telling people that because I worked at Raleigh suit or checkers for some people. Like, the meat is real. Because it's raw and bloody. It's not frozen. I'm saying it could be kangaroo meat.

Go ahead. I know you don't have a big, not Big Bufor. It was a baconator. It tastes real, didn't it? I probably have. I don't remember. There was this dude that used to come in there and order an extra large baconator

with an extra large fry, a pep, not a Pepsi, we had Coke products, a Coke, and a Frosty, and he would bash it. And I'm just still concerned. I wonder. Oh, we're still alive. Because the amount of it.

I found of sodium and cholesterol. Sheesh. Go ahead. His artist was like, I was, why are you always turning into like a taradetto or something? It's all of us. I was at Wendy's.

Brian asked me if I wanted to work in Chicago. Yeah. I moved to Chicago. You moved to Chicago. And like the day you moved to Chicago, you sent me a text was like, yeah, I don't know if this is going to work out. I just, I don't know what you said,

but you just broke up with me the first day. We didn't even see each other yet. I was like, I know we're going to see each other. Mar, she just broke up with me. Because it's like, wow. It felt, it felt, because I think when we were long distance, it's like I had some element of control.

Like, you know, I could text you when I wanted to text you, I respond or call and all the things. But it was like now that I'm in your city, it felt like an obligation to be like girlfriendish and it just scared me. So I rather

Oh, you scared. You scared of me? Yeah. Oh. I didn't have a. a dad. I don't know how to do this. What do you mean? I'm traumatized when it comes to male pursuit of affection. I shouldn't be laughing at your fatherlessness.

I didn't have one to teach me how to receive love from a man. Yeah, I didn't have a dad. I was scared. So I ran. Okay. I'm a runner. That's what I did. She's a runner. She's a track star. And then I remember I felt away because I was staying with TJ and oh that was funny it was just it was really funny how you said I didn't have a dad okay okay okay keep going keep going we I was standing at TJ and Jessica house and you had they had invited because we all we still went to same church yeah they had invited some people over the house and you was over there and like it was so awkward I was uncomfortable or I was I wasn't used to you giving me friend energy and like like friend like not even like a close friend. So like you came in and you just said like what's up and then like sat on the other

end of the couch. Yeah, I kept a real player. It was like talking to other people and I was like, oh wow. Yeah. That's what we're doing. Yeah, because the thing I'm not going to do it's going to be like, she broke up with me. I was like, I knew you was my wife, but I wanted to go in me like all in your face. I was like, what's up? I didn't like that. I know. And so we kept a real play. We had to revisit this conversation about breaking up where we sat in the car and we talked about And you said something ridiculous like, I'm always gonna keep pursuing you or something like that. Yeah.

Which scared me even more. I know. I wasn't helping. We're here. Okay. Second time. The second time we broke up, right? We go to Trinidad.

And at some point we gotta bring in Jesus and Scripture so that this is edifying. Right. It's coming. I don't know where, but it's coming. We go to Trinidad and this is my first time out of the country. I'm really excited. I'm going to see mangoes. I'm going to see wild lizards for the first time and not rats

because I lived on the south side of Chicago. I was so excited. I had like, you know, the whole like trip planned out. We go to Trinidad for seven days to do poetry. The first day we get there, you just completely shut down. And I'm like, what's happening? Not the first day. It was the first day.

Oh. It was the first day. I remember. Okay. I'm still wounded a little bit. Okay. I'm sorry about that. But, no, like, you just completely shut down.

And I'm like, what's going on? Like, what, like, why? Like, why is this, you know what I'm saying? Why is this happening right now? So I tried to talk to you. And I remember going in your room and asking you like, what was the issue? So let me tell you from my vantage point, right? So we arrive, everything is all good and well, all the things.

Again, I'm not a new believer, but I'm like a new believer in knowing how to navigate my emotions and even my mental health. And so when we got there for some reason, I was just really depressed. And I could not, at that point, I didn't even know that was depression. I just knew that I was really detached. I was really sad.

It felt like despair, but it didn't have any source. It wasn't like I was triggered into sadness. It wasn't like anything happened. And so for me, I didn't know what to do except to be mean. You get what I'm saying? It's like, I don't want to talk. I don't want to be bothered. I don't want to do none of that type of stuff.

And I didn't have even the education to know how the enemy can use mental health and emotions to just mess up stuff. And I'm not saying it wasn't hormonal. I'm not saying, I think mental health and spiritual dynamics, I think they are very much interconnected in a way that we can't even like delineate sometimes. Yeah, yeah, because I think, not to go on a tangent,

but I really think that like, once we're realize that we're like, we're holistic beings. Like God did not create us to be human without spirit and emotions. And like our physical being will always affect our spiritual self, our mental self. And I think it's all interconnected. And so like, I didn't even know that then. And I'm joked and said even a couple of seconds ago

how I was a victim. But I think in a lot of ways, the Lord, kind of just show me a lot about myself during that time. Because one, I think the Lord was preparing me to learn how to deal with people's emotions outside of myself, like to really care for somebody who's going through something that they don't even know how to process, right? I didn't know how to deal with that.

And also, too, the Lord was kind of showing me my selfishness because it was kind of like, oh, I remember going in your room and I'm asking you like, you know, what's wrong and you kind of being mean to me and me responding in the way that was just- So explain how you responded. The first ever all-electric 2026 Subaru Trail Seeker is the EV for the Trail Obsessed, with up to 444 kilometers on a full charge and DC fast charging from 10 to 80% in about 30 minutes in ideal conditions.

Plus, ample ground clearance and symmetrical all-wheel drive make the 26 Trail Seeker the most capable EV Subaru has ever built. Test drive it at your local Subaru dealer or visit Subaru.ca. Yeah, so I'm not proud of it. First of all. Good. Godly grief. You know, you said something along the lines of, I don't know why I want to, I don't even know why I want. No, you fast forward.

Okay, well, okay. Remind me. You came in the room. First of all, you came in the room like a dad fin to have a talk with their five-year-old. Oh, man. It was like that, like, we're about to have a real. I was real Carl, Winslow with it. It was just like, it was given heart to heart.

Like, you know, we're about to have one of those. And then, like, you sat there on the edge of the bed again, fatherly. And you was like, you know how you talk about how your dad was diagnosed bipolar? You was like, have you ever thought about that you might be like him in that way? Because you always talk about how your dad, like, how he wasn't present and how he was detached or how he was. Like, have you ever thought about how, like, you're the same way? That was the phrasing, that you're the same way. No, no, no, no.

And I remember looking at you like... No, I didn't say that. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I remember looking at you. Wait. I had no reaction, because I'm like, oh, he's literally basically saying that I have bipolar issues. Like my father who neglected me and abandoned me all of my life. You made me laugh.

Double trigger. You try to make me laugh. How offensive is this? Oh man, why did I say that? Why did you say it? So here's the thing. So here's the thing. I think, now that I know you,

I think you were really trying to be helpful. I was. I was trying to make you see. Because you didn't say it mean at all. I didn't say it. Have you ever thought about how you might be just like your dad? So both of our pastor at the time,

he used to always tell me, Preston, God is going to use you greatly, but you are in a lot of ways of Peter. Yeah. You don't know how to not. You just let stuff fly out of your mouth. You're very important. And so for me, like, I was like, I was, I think it was a mixture of irritation. I'm going to be honest.

It was a mix of irritation. But I also was like, oh, I got to help her see. And so, like, it was kind of like me. Let me be honest. I didn't know how to lead. Mm-hmm. I think that's, I think that's, that's what the Lord showed me. even looking back at the time, it was like, I wanted to help you,

but at the same time, I wasn't over how affected I was by your actions. And so I was like, how can I help her? And so it wasn't malicious, but at the same time, it wasn't thoughtful. Like, I didn't, I didn't consider you at that moment at all. And so, yeah, look, it's a long time ago. I don't think I was trying to be mean. No, I don't think you were. Yeah, I'm so sorry.

It just, I feel bad. It basically made everything worse. It made everything worse. Yeah, like if the depression was like a four, it was a strong nine after that. Because it's like, oh, this what we're doing. You know what I'm saying? So I just kind of went back into my hole and was pretty, pretty kind of content with not letting you in there anymore. Yeah, I'm so sorry.

Now, I got in eventually. Sure. Sure. In hindsight, or not even hindsight, like thinking of yourself now, if that work to happen now, how would you respond differently? Because it doesn't happen because I've learned too. So I can talk about me. Yeah, yeah. How would you? I think if it was now, I think I would have, I think I would have, the first thing I would have done was set with you and like really listen to you and ask questions instead of offering what I think the issue is. and helps you process. Because when you're going through stuff now as a leader

and a person, your husband, who loves you, I know how to ask you questions to help you process how you feel. And then sometimes, because we've been married so long, I've just learned how to make you laugh at times. I've learned, I've learned, maybe she doesn't even need to talk. She just needs for me to come in and crack a joke

and lighten the mood up. And then for her to be able to come to me on her own. And that just came with like nine years, going on 10 years, marriage and all these years of friendship. But I just didn't know that at the time. You know what I'm saying? And so like also too, I would have prayed.

I would have prayed before I went in the room. That's great. And I didn't because it's many times in our marriage. I'm like, okay, Jackie's going through something. I know you can be a very blunt person. You can be a very direct person. And that's the reason why when we first got, when we first started talking, all of my friends was like, y'all ain't going to work.

y'all too bullheaded people, y'all too strong-willed people, y'all not going to work. And the Lord had to show me that the only way this will work is if you depend on me, is if you come to me, as if I can, like, yeah, I want to soften you in a way. And I want to give you wisdom in a particular way to love and to care for Jackie and give Jackie that she wanted. And now looking back, it was like, no, like the Lord was just teaching me how to depend on him when it came to loving a woman. That's good. And so I think that's some of the things I would have changed. I think you saying prayer is so simple, but it's actually really fundamental to what could have created unity and clarity in that situation.

Because I'm thinking to myself, I don't even think I pray, you know? Like, I'm sad. I'm disheartened. I'm feeling like, you know, all the things. And I don't think I went to God. I think I went to my thoughts. because I think one, when you are a thinker, but also a strategist,

you try to think your way through your emotions when oftentimes that's not how you get out of the situation. You know what I'm saying? Because I didn't, I had to go to therapy to even learn how to put language to feeling. Like I would feel, but I didn't know what the feeling was. Like I remember she gave me a chart one time and she was like, tell me how, look at the chart

and tell me how you're feeling. It's not just sad, it's a particular kind of sad, right? Yeah, we're so complex. Yeah. And so I think now I know, one, I can sometimes anticipate what situations might create those kinds of emotional days, if that makes sense. Like if I'm triggered by something or like if I'm sad about something or if it's like heavy ministry and I know where to go. I'll say, Lord, I need your joy. That's a fruit of the spirit, right?

Like I need yourself control to think on what is true and to think on what is right and to think on what is worthy or praise. Like I need people. I didn't let anybody in to what was happening with me. I was just dealing with it by myself. And so now I will not only tell you, hey, this is what I'm going through, but I have a collection of people that I will say,

pray for me or can you process with me? And then I would have got in my word. I would have tried to meditate on the goodness of God. And that doesn't mean that, that necessarily makes depression go away, but I think it allows it to lose some of its grip and some of its power, especially if it's connected to some type of like spiritual warfare,

then it definitely has no authority at that point. That's good. That's good. I kind of eliminate the question I was going to ask you. What was it? It was, you know, what would you have done differently? Yeah. And so that's really good.

But the crazy thing is it got worse. People don't realize that yet. Because that's when we were watching basketball, And it was Spurs and somebody. Miami Heat. Yeah, it was. Yeah, LeBron beat the Spurs. I wouldn't know those details.

But we were doing something. And you said something to me. You kind of got over it a little bit and you came out to watch the game with me. But you was still mad at me. Yeah. I don't know what happened. I just, maybe you brought something up and you wanted to talk about something deep. Because another thing people don't know is that the first year of us dating,

you never wanted to have a normal conversation that wasn't around you trying to fix me or preach to me or lecture me or like do something spiritual that had to deal with my issues and my sin and my flaws and my insecurities. In my mind, we had to get it right. We had to get it right.

So even entering into conversation with you gave me anxiety because it wasn't going to be light. All this laughter and Kiki and ha-ha, like that wasn't there before. It's like when we was friends, you were fun. And now you're like, Pastor Perry all the time. I was like, because I was like, man, I'm going to be the priest of this home.

Yeah, but go put blood on the altar and look at it and say she's good. She's redeemed. Anyway, I got mad at you for something. And I turned to you and I was like, you know what? I just don't even know why I'm with you. I was like, like, I don't even know why we're doing this. And I remember it felt gratifying to say that. Wow.

That's really evil. It is. But it felt I think. You should repent. I think I was angry. And not even necessarily at you. I think I was dealing with some form of anger. But when you called me my daddy, it's like, oh, now all of this energy and this turmoil, I got to put it somewhere.

Because I wouldn't put it at Jesus feet. I shouldn't get it. I shouldn't idiot. It's okay. It's all right. I'm going to let go of shame. No, you should. Because that was like 13 years ago.

Or 12. It was a long time ago. Yeah. No, like I don't know why that situation was so rough. It was really, really tough. I just know when you told me that, though, I just felt like deflated. I was like, yo, I'm doing all I think I should be doing.

Like, why is this so tough? And I just remember, like, in my mind saying, okay, this girl doesn't want to be with me. One moment she does, the other moment she doesn't, okay, I'm just going to kind of like let it go. And I remember contemplating all that night, should I just kind of like let this go? And also too, dealing with the fact

that my whole Trinidad trip was ruined. Oh, wow. So moving forward, we stopped talking. Oh, you're going to say? But remember at the airport? Right, I was going to say that night we went our separate ways or whatever in the same like house.

And we had to go to the airport. We didn't talk on the flight. We didn't talk in baggage claim. And I guess I said something smart and you like snapped at me and it was like rah-rah. Like it was like really... That was the first time I ever like said something to you and you didn't say anything back and it shocked me.

Because you got testosterone. I'm okay. What does that mean? Because I think when a man gets mad... Because there's levels to masculine, madness or masculine anger. There's like, he's mad, but he ain't that mad. Then it's like, he getting mad, but like, I like this mad

because you made me mad. And then there's mad like, man, if he was an abuser, I might be abused. It was like that. It was giving, he might. I would never. That might be too far. But it was, it just, I knew that that wasn't the time.

You was like, okay. Well, yeah, it is what it is. It's cool. Be mad and I'm gonna go home. Okay. So, yeah. I went home. And I went home.

I had a car and you had a bus ticket. Oh, wow. Wow. Jokes on you. Whoa. Catch a ride. First of all, first of all,

while you're trying to throw me under the bus, pun attended, it was Chicago. Right. Public transportation was a thing. Yeah, you had a lot of access to walk. I was saving money. Anyway, I mean,

you worked at Radio Shack. What else is there to do? If not save. First of all, if I didn't talk my past to letting you move to Chicago to get you a good job. I would have still been in Wendy's. You would have still been in Wendy's. But the Lord, you see how,

I'm saying, but do you see how I was being selfless even before we got married? Gifts make wrong for people. You know what I'm saying? Get me a job. I said get her job. That was good. You know what I don't have a response to it.

I was like, I'm gonna walk. But then batteries was like, you had a thick check. Selling people remote backs. Okay. I lost my mind. remote back, sir. Do you have any for my Sony X-25? Yeah, yeah, I got that. That's your commission check. It's remote back. Hey, look, look, first of all, it was a long time ago, but I still loved that job. In cell phone, cell phone cases. It's cool. Go ahead. I gave a lot of people to gossip

working on the radio shank. But look. And batteries. I remember. And live strong bracelets. You're such a jerk. You such a jerk, gee. Look, I remember. like saying like I'm done with this girl I got back to the States and a friend had a party at a bowling alley a birthday party at a bowling alley and everybody was like what y'all had I was like I don't know we broke up and they was like what I was like yeah we you know what I'm saying like my sister was like you just told me like last month you was thinking my proposal and I was like yeah like it didn't work out you know what I'm saying we broke up uh it out her friend was like why y'all break up and I was like she don't want to be with me no mom

You know what I'm saying? And I was like, yeah. I probably heard to say. I went home, prayed about it, but I didn't do like a real prayer. I did one of them fake prayers. What's that? I felt like I had to acknowledge the Lord. But like I ain't really like seeking.

I ain't really seek him. You know what I'm saying? And then I got a call from Brian. Which tells me that the Lord still heard it. Did you ever think about that? No. Because for you to throw up that little shallow, half-hearted prayer, and then for the Lord to immediately respond by sending you Brian to call.

you, it's like the Lord's still, he's still good and generous in that way. Even when we give him raggedy prayers, he answers. Oh, come on now. I was like, Lord, I tried to do what you told me to do. You know what I'm saying? She don't want me. Thank you. Because he had the divine will, period.

He's like, they got to get married and have four kids. Right. So. And then Brian called me and really challenged me. And he was like. What did you say? You're skipping things. He challenged me.

He challenged me. He basically said, you know, he just showed me all the way. in which the Lord loved my little raggedy self, you know, after everything that I did. Like, that was my disciple. He knew all my business. I mean, I came from nothingness. You know what I'm saying?

And the Lord really loved me and pursued me and cared for me. And he was like, you've been through tough stuff like this. He was like, Jack, he didn't hurt your feelings that bad. And I'm like, first of all, you're trying to comfort me. You know what I said? And he was like, no, like, I really think your call to this woman. He was like, I watched your life and I watched your life. He was like, he just affirmed me.

It was like, you have integrity, you love the Lord, you are man of your convictions. So is Jackie, a woman of her convictions. And he was like, this is tough. And he was like, but you don't want to run away from tough because on the other side of tough is beauty. And I was like, I do not like you, bro. And he said, I'm not going to tell you to, you know, get back with her. I want you just to really pray. And I was like, I pray.

And he was like, no, I want you to seek the Lord. So that next day, I prayed when I got up in the morning and I felt like the Lord was just like convicting my heart of giving up so fast. And I was like, oh, my gosh. And so I think it was like going into like the afternoon. And the Lord, like I literally felt like the Lord laid in on my heart to just text you. I love you.

And I just said, okay, I don't want to do this. And I just said, I love you. in a text and sent it. Yeah. Yeah, so I was at work, I think, with Brian. So context, Brian died was both of our pastors, but he was also my boss at Grip Outreach for Youth, which was a nonprofit organization I worked for.

And so at the same time that he would be pastoring us, he also was pastoring me while managing me. And so I could not escape some type of pastoral authority at any time. And so I think we were in our Monday meetings, which were actually just a statement. discipleship meetings and you had, I looked at my phone and I saw your name. One, I was just surprised to see your name and then I had anxiety on what would be attached to. And I think I wrote this about this in my book. I'm sure I did. I think you did. I had to because this was pretty

monumental and pivotal for our relationship. I saw your name and then I had anxiety and then I just saw like, I love you. And I think I just started crying maybe out of shock because it was like, I just kind of like played this man, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, you did. It's the clearing of the throat that we don't have to do. I'm just saying, I had something in my throat. You need some throat coat.

I know what I'm saying? I ate some muffins earlier. Anyway. I've just rejected him pretty intensely, right? Out of my own fear. And albeit out of even my own stuff that you also didn't manage or steward well. Yeah.

But either way, I still responded to you in a way that did not dignify you are even honor the degree to which you were trying to lead me and care for me. And for you to respond with I love you was so contrary to even my father. Because I didn't do anything and my father still left. And so I think for you to show me that you were so not like any man I had ever known literally. I had never known a man who just loved that way. And so to me it was like, oh, wow.

we have to get married. Like what else is there to do at this point? The first ever all-electric 26 Subaru Trail Seeker is the EV for the trail obsessed. With up to 444 kilometers on a full charge and DC fast charging from 10 to 80% in about 30 minutes in ideal conditions. Plus, ample ground clearance and symmetrical all-wheel drive

make the 2026 Trail Seeker the most capable EV Subaru has ever built. Test drive it at your local Subaru dealer or visit Subaru.ca. Speaking to that, though, like you, I forget what the text message said. I think I sent you a long one. You sent me a long text apologizing, but you said, would you please come over? The house, I think the next day, and I came over the next day. And when I walked in the house.

In the daytime. Okay. In the daytime. We got to have boundaries. We was pure. Because if it was kind of, if it was average. We were pure-ish. But if it was after 6.30 p.m., it would have just been not good.

And I came in, and Jackie had like a whole little meal situation, like, prepared for me. It wasn't that great. It was really pretty. It was fishing salad. It was like a nice salmon, but you decorated it. You had, like, a little drizzle, the little designs. I said, she's a little artist. Yeah, your standard was low.

Listen, I was eating Harold's chicken every day. I know. And Wendy's. I appreciate it, though. And so it was really, really good. And I guess that was your way of saying, you know, it's my olive branch. Yeah, your olive branch.

And what was crazy, I didn't tell you this at the time. As soon as we sat down and started talking and I started eating food or whatever, and we started to like joke and just be friends. In my mind, I said, I'm going to marry this girl. Like literally, it was kind of like, oh, okay. People might think you're nuts. Why? Why you say that?

Okay, just play back everything we just said, okay? Like, I moved to Chicago, I dumped you. We get back together. We go to Trinidad. We get into this argument. I said, I don't want to be with you. And then we break up. And then I cooked you a salad and some fish.

And then in your mind, you say, oh, this is my wife. Like, you need to walk us through how that's not idiotic. Not idiocy. That's the word. I think it's a combination of a couple of things. I'm not to, I say this very humbly. In a lot of ways, I'm kind of built like that. Yes.

Right. Right. I am. Like, I've been through so much that like somebody like booble on me a little bit. Ain't going to make me cry. But at the same time, even when when I was like done, done, I don't want people to think that I'm such a good man. Well, I was like, I'm going to pursue you relentlessly. Like, no, like I was, like, after Trent.

that I was done. Right. But I want people to understand, like, a good man is not a good man in and of itself. A good man is somebody who's led by the Holy Spirit. And so, like, it was, that was the Lord. Like, seriously, because if it was just Preston, I'm like, okay, I can deal with so, so much if I love you. But after a while, you know what I'm saying? So I think it was a combination of a couple of things.

It was that, like, one, I wasn't easily offended or easily rattled, right? But even when I was, I did reach my limit, I felt like the Lord was like, no, you're not going to go nowhere. Like I've called you to this woman. And even when I tried to refuse that, the Lord was like, no. And so, you know, I really got to give credit to the Lord because the Lord, like, he like led me and didn't want me to give up. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I think that situation was a good training ground for us.

us because I would often say to newlyweds, there were a lot of newlyweds that I've known who on the front end of their relationship when they were dating, it was all butterflies and confetti and, you know, and party favors. And then when they got married, then they realized that, oh, this is actually hard. But for us, it was hard the whole time. And so now we're actually enjoying the party favors and the confetti and the maturity that comes with having to work through your own. own stuff with another person.

You know what I'm saying? And I feel like that's why certain relationships don't have the longevity that they can have because people, they just haven't had the chance to see what it's like to work. It's work to have a good relationship. Yeah, I think, I agree. I think one of the reasons why a lot of, you know, relationships, even in the early stage, don't work because people run away from hard. so easily.

And it's the hard things that actually shape us and mold us, not just as individuals, but as couples. And to be clear, the hard things you're called to do, because it's a difference between hard things and toxic things, right? And so there are some relational situations that are just straight up dysfunctional. There's emotional, verbal, physical abuse. There's abandonment, rejection, there's drug. Like, we're not, we're talking about, I rejected you, you mishandled me.

I was mean to you, you are harsh with me. You get what I'm saying? Like, it's just, we just don't, we're not meshing. Absolutely. Because one of the things I realized is everything that was hard dealing with issues with you, God was also trying to show something to me. And I think a lot of times when a person is difficult, we can, or a person kind of gives you trouble in a relationship,

we can focus so much on what they're doing. what they're not doing, we kind of miss what God is trying to reveal about us. And God was like, yeah, Jackie is scared. And she lashes out at you. But you're also a terrible leader in some ways. And I'm trying to show you that. But if you don't respond to what I'm trying to reveal about you, you will never be morphed into the man that I'm trying to create, creating you.

that will lead Jackie to make her kind of like come out of the shale. No, that's actually... It actually works twofold. That's actually really wise because prior to that, I said earlier, that your method of leadership was lecturing me and preaching to me and trying to change me by just showing me how wrong I was. Right. And I think...

I was a Pharisee, not Jesus. The text message was monumental because that was the first time you just led by loving. Yeah, right. Like I love you. Like I'm not even going to address. Like we're going to get to what happened and work through that. But this is the way I'm going to establish unity between us is by loving you, which is very much Jesus. And think about that.

Even when we got married, I still kind of had my struggles, right? Right. But what told me, this is deep, what told me this is my wife was after seeing your, after seeing how lighthearted you was, after seeing how lighthearted you was, after seeing how how open you were after seeing my friend. I was able to see my friend when I came over and you made that meal for me. I was like, yo, I can not only can I see me marrying this woman, I know that this woman is my wife,

but I wasn't able to see you for who you really were until I led you with love. That's good. Prior, I was just trying to, I wanted to see that. Yeah, but you were trying to like manufacture it. I was doing it. I tried to get that out out of you by my own strength. That's just the truth of it.

And it wasn't until like I had to seek the Lord and pray. And the Lord was just like, text her, I love you. And I'm like, that ain't gonna work. You don't know what she said to me in Trinidad. Was you there? I know you omnipresent. Did you see it? And I did it and I came over and you made a meal for me. And I was like, oh, that's all I had to do. You know what I'm saying?

My watch, fellow. It really is. Hold on, I'll forget my watch because I don't want it on the floor. It's literally the foolish things of the world. Right. You know what I'm saying? Found in the wise. Like, and that, here we go, gospel presentation.

That is what Jesus did. Yeah. Because all false religions and even the expectation of the people of Israel was, okay, I've done all the things. I've done all the work. I've read the law and I've tried to obey it and I've slaughtered the lamb and the goat and the dubs and all the things.

Like that should be sufficient. Yeah. But then Jesus comes as a human being, God and flesh, lives this life, dies on a cross. Come on. That doesn't make sense that death should bring life. It doesn't make sense that humility should bring exaltation, right? When I'm saying this, like, in God's kingdom, there's this reversal dynamic where you loving me, open me.

Yeah. Where you loving me, change me. Yeah. Where you loving me allowed me to actually submit and, like, respond to you. You get what I'm saying? Absolutely. And I want to, I want to say this because even in the vein of the gospel presentation in relation to how men feel like they have to kind of like, yeah, but she's wrong. You got to tell her she's wrong.

You know what I was wrong. I have the spirit of God. That's what I was just about to say. Like, you knew you were wrong. But my grandmother used to always say this simple truth. People don't care what you know until they know that you care. And I think modeling love, I don't like when people say preach the gospel, you know, and if it's necessary, use words.

So the words are very, very necessary. Like, we should speak. I don't necessarily think that's true. I think the gospel and the truth is how people change, right? But I do think God wants us to model a love that will open people so they can be receptive to the truth that we give. And it's not that, you know, I'm not, I haven't corrected you or challenged you in our marriage. But you started to respond a lot more to my correction and my challenges when you felt loved and when you saw the love. And that's just not for a marriage situation.

That's for everything in life. Yeah. It is, it is how can we model love. in a way where we can give people love and truth that will allow them to respond, you know, in a way that they know we love them. And so like I really think that, you know, modeling love is just, it's key.

That's what Jesus did. It's huge. So heart fingers. Heart fingers. You love me still? Of course. Okay. What do you mean?

We got four kids. Yeah, we do. How we got all these kids? Why nobody said stop? Because you're, by yo. With the Perrys is produced by The Perrys, with support from Amanda Reed and Channing McBride, video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley, edited by the team at Tread Libly. Artwork by Hobb. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.