With The Perrys - Cancel Culture

Episode Date: June 14, 2021

Cancel culture is kind of a "thing" nowadays but should it be? Especially among Christians, the public shaming of certain individuals and groups may or may not be necessary but how do we determine when "canceling" someone is the righteous thing to do? Jackie and Preston will discuss the topic among themselves to see if they can come to some kind of conclusion on the matter. Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, St. Nantes. What up with y'all? How are you? If you listen closely, you might hear some new, new music. Come on here. Come on here with the new intro music. Shout out to Mommy's swoop. He created this music for a shot.

Won't God do it. We should do the Chachai slide right now. Yeah, man. We're coming up. Or what's the other one people used to do at weddings? Electric slide. Not like the other, the little. R. Kelly one.

The boogie. It's like a boogie thing. We probably. I don't know what I'm saying Past my time It's not past your time It's like four years ago This is gonna make me mad

Because people are like I'm gonna Google it Hold on We gonna edit this part out And then we're gonna come back Do the boogie boogie boogie It's the wobble The wobble would you walk

I'm sorry babe I couldn't I wouldn't blank I'm like You know why I didn't think Of that song Why? Because I always hated it I like watching people do it

But you will never see me participate I don't I always thought it was just very stupid. It's fun to see. People look like they having fun. You don't like watching people have fun? No, people look dumb when they do. They don't.

Now, no. What are you doing? They don't look dumb. The only time it looked dumb is one time for my birthday crews, like, what was this, two years ago, they had a silent party, which means that the people in the party have on headphones where they're listening to music. And so you don't know what they're listening to. I remember that. But we had a set of headphones where we can.

kind of take them on, take them off or whatever. And I was looking and like one group had on the wobble in their headphones. Another group had like Taylor Swift. So you literally got a group on the dance floor wobbling to the left and you got another group in the dance floor

looking like SpongeBob. It just was an interesting little situation. Have you ever seen people face when they do the wobble? They look happy. They look. You look crazy. I don't know why they always got to buck their eyes.

Anyway. Anyway, what we talk about? I'm going to cancel you. that because I don't appreciate you judge of people speaking of cancel we should cancel the wobble no we should not you should not cancel means of joy

for people at wedding it doesn't bring joy to me it canceled okay anyway so obviously we're talking about cancel culture because Preston wants to talk about it I am very unenthused by this conversation to be frank but I feel like it's going to be a very enlightening conversation and I know you're going to have a lot of good nuggets

sure I think it's an important conversation We sometimes talk about things that one of us don't want to talk about. And I think this is a very important conversation because I think the way the world is turning out, everybody's going to be canceled, like the whole world. So first of all, let's define cancel culture. I googled it so that I can properly engage with this silly conversation. The definition is cancel culture refers to the popular practice of withdrawing support, a.k.a. cancelling public figures and companies after they have done or said something considered

objectionable, that's a hard word, or offensive. Cancel cultures generally discuss as being performed on social media in the form of group shaming. That's dictionary.com. So what's your beef? Why don't you like it? Well, I think, one, it's a very insincere thing. And it isn't because I'm afraid of being cancel one day. I really don't care. You know, I don't really care about stuff like that. But I do think one of the things that you just read in that description, it's a way that you can cancel people with platforms. And I do think that it's a whole bunch of people who, I don't know, I don't want to say they are part of cancel culture, but who love to just cancel people who are in the forefront. And while a whole time They have their whole lives to just grow and evolve as people.

And I just kind of feel like it's a very, it's just an unloving thing to me. You know what I'm saying? So you think cancel culture is unloving because it does not allow people the room to make mistakes and grow from them. Yeah. Yeah, it's a whole bunch of people who are just sitting back waiting for somebody to mess up, I feel like, and ready to just cancel the first person who makes a mistake. because I think that online bullying is a real thing. I think that when you are not in a person's life,

when you don't have to involve yourself with a person, when you are disassociated with a person, and all you have is social media to judge them. I think it's very easy for a group of people to come and say, let's cancel this particular person. Now, some things I feel like is okay, right? Because I feel like sometimes people say some things and do some things that have really,

hurt a particular people group. So how does one decide then what is cancelable and what isn't? There are individuals like Bill Cosby who was drugging and raping women. There are those like Jeffrey Epstein who had a sex trafficking ring. There are people like Harvey Weinstein who was basically manipulating, molesting, and raping women and using his position of power in Hollywood to basically, I guess, as leverage to manipulate these women to do what he wanted, right? Those kinds of people should be canceled. Yeah. But then you have folks like recently who, what's the girl who married to John Legend?

What's the name? Oh, I think Chrissy something. Chrissy Teigen. Yeah. She's being canceled on a major level, not just on social media, but like cats are like choosing not to like carry her like dishes and pots and pans. Because of what? In the store. So I guess, long story short.

She was tweeting and DMing some teenage girl telling her to kill herself like 10 years ago. My question with that is, should she be canceled for doing something that happened a decade ago where she most likely is not the same individual anymore? Or is it so problematic that she was literally encouraging a young child that she should offer herself that she should just be excluded from all things? I think it gets sticky. And so this is what I think. I think, one, when we talk about the world, I think, you know,

we have to understand that the world doesn't have the same or shouldn't have the same framework that the body of Christ has. Right. I think the motivating thing should always be love. And so I'm going to just bring his name up, Ravi Zecharias, for example, right? Most people in the Christian community, it was like, you know, I'm not going to support Ravi Zecharias. I'm not going to, you know, he's canceled. I've heard all the people on social media.

And when I did IG posts on social media, one of the things that I said was I don't feel like I should support or advertise his work or support him publicly anymore, not out of spite, but out of love for his victims, right? And so is that a form of canceling? Yes. I think that, yeah, I am canceling. I'm not promoting him publicly because motivating,

factor is still love. Right. Right. And I think, I think, I think the Christian community, when we start canceling people like the world does, just out of spite, like I just, I feel like, I feel like God has a problem with that. Well, I think, I think when we think about Christians, canceling other individuals has a different weight because usually people root their canceling of an individual based on a biblical moral ethic. Yes. Right.

And so they won't say, oh, I'm canceling you because I dislike you. They'll say, I'm canceling you because what you're doing is wrong because the Bible said it. So, for example, when people felt away about me because of my participation with certain ministry leaders, they wanted to cancel me because they presumed that my ministry or my collaboration with certain individuals was problematic and going against scripture. When at the same time, at the end of the day, this is going against. your convictions in how you interpret scripture, not necessarily mine.

And that's another problem. Which is unfair. Yeah, that's another problem that I have with cancel culture. It's because even what you just brought up with the Chrissy thing, people canceling it because what she did with the girl. Chrissy Teigen, right? I don't know this story. This is my first time hearing about her.

I don't follow her that tight. But what I am saying is that I think it's problematic that when we cancel people, not only do we have the full context, we don't even seek to get the full context before we cancel. Got it. And so, for example, when you met with some people, some ministry leaders who people, like, deemed, quote, unquote, is, you know, charismatic and false teachers.

Right. And you were at a particular conference or whatever. People hated when you posted a picture with them, but they didn't even seek to understand or seek to find out what the message was you preach when you were there. Right. So if the main thing is us preaching the gospel and they follow you for years and you, and you have been a representation of biblical teaching, why are you not concerned about the message that she preached

when she was there, but the people who she posted a picture with. Because it's optics. Right, it is. You assume standing next to someone is the same as being theologically aligned in the same way. And I think that there is an ignorance of what true heresy and false teaching and all of this stuff is.

Where you got saints canceling people because they're friends with egalitarians as if people are going to hell for having an egalitarian worldview. You know what I'm saying? Where it's like we're making secondary, even tertiary, like third level understandings

of scripture, first level understanding of scripture, which is a problem to me. You're calling people false teachers. There aren't false teachers. They simply have a different interpretation of a passage on tongues. Yeah. That's the craziest thing. Absolutely. But to add on to that,

I think with this, whole cancel culture thing, it's not just about, it's not just about people being mad at what you did. It's about tribalism. Well, yeah, it's. Well, that is a part of the definition is that cancel culture is a form of group shaming. Yeah, it is.

So you're never, you're never in charge of canceling somebody as an individual. It's always people that share your sentiment. Because to bring up, you know, again, when you went to preach at this conference or whatever, And I saw Christians low-key canceling you or mad at you because you posted a picture with such and such. It was deep to me because the first thing that I thought about was it's really not about the gospel. Explain this. It's not about the gospel because if, say for instance, I can't expect everybody to be me. But if I followed a teacher, right?

And this teacher was biblically sound. This teacher was always on point with scripture. He or she had integrity with, like, you know, keeping, you know, context to everything he preaches or whatever. And I saw him in a space or her in a space that, you know, the theology is kind of loosey-goosey, right? The first thing I'm going to think about is, man, I want to get a hold to the message this person preached when he was there. I'm not going to be an uproar because that person posted a picture. that person posted a picture with the people. Right.

And that just shows you the main thing isn't really about the gospel. It's about what tribe you associate yourself with. And Jackie, you belong to us. Wow. For so many years, you belong to us. I belong to the Lord. And now you're posting the picture with somebody who does not belong to my camp. My God.

And that is so anti-gospital to me. So then, so then what you're saying or what you're saying, or what you're speaking to is that a part of the problem when it comes to Christians, canceling other Christians, is that it works against unity. Yes. Which is obviously the entire point, not the entire point, but God, you know, he restored us to himself through Christ Jesus, but he also restored fellowship with each other. Give us the full gospel.

And that was the beef that Paul had with Peter, which is like, bro, you might have right theology, but you over here acting like a Jew when two days ago you was acting like a Gentile you're acting contrary to the gospel because you're dividing brothers and sisters right and so in essence what you're saying is like like man how can we be unified even in our disagreements

in essence. Absolutely because I think I like how I explained that yeah it was really it might not have been that clear no it was really good I thought it was I thought it was good. I'm not going to cancel you for it, though. That's good. But I think that that should be the main goal. I think it sadly, in the body of Christ, I think we don't want to be unified. I think we, in our mind, we have a particular people group in our mind that we should

be unified with. And that's the people who have checked all of our theological boxes, who have ascribed to all our quote-unquote biblical teachers. And if they don't, if they don't ascribe to what we deem as biblically accurate. We don't want to learn from these people. We don't, we, we feel like these people can do no good. And the moment somebody from our camp, somebody that we own and claimed for ourselves, associates themselves with a particular people group, we want to cancel them. And it's so worldly.

I don't even see how the Christians can do that with a clear conviction. I think, though, I can hear somebody saying, Well, the Bible does offer commands to not associate with certain brothers, you know, who are in certain sins or not associate with false teachers, right? Then you also have the principle or the practice of church discipline, which is somebody came to somebody, said, hey, bro, repent, they repent. We brought two or three witnesses. They still ain't repent. We brought them before the church. They still out here like, ooh, I want to be like the devil.

And so you got to put them out in the street. You know, you can't come to this church tomorrow. Would you say that that's a form of righteous cancellation? A couple of things to that. One, we see, for example, when Timothy and Ephesus was basically warned about the false teachers in the church. Right. It was in the context of a local community, not through social media. Okay.

So that's one thing. And so I think a lot of times we be trying to... We be trying. Come on here, Abonics. Yes. I love it. We be trying to put labels and create frameworks for people who we have no context for. Okay. A lot of the times. And then sometimes we can see publicly some people are just off.

Right. But I think to go back, I think you said this a couple of minutes ago, it's a difference between being an error and being a false teacher. Right. And I think that what social media doesn't do, social media doesn't leave the room for grace to try to separate the two or to try to distinguish the two. It's any time somebody says something off, they're a false teacher. Right. You know, as if some of the teachers that you follow, I want to challenge people. Some of the most biblically sound teachers that you follow go back in history and just type in,

whoever that teacher is some things that they some mistakes that they cleared up over the pulpit right like it happens you know what I'm saying like and so like sometimes people are

an error sometimes people are you know are talking out of ignorance and I think that sometimes we have wolves and sheep clothing people who are intensely trying to lead gods flock astray or you know gain money through you know social

selfish motive and I think that's that's a difference. And so I think that it's good for a teacher like you or me to go in spaces where people, theology might be a loosey goosey, but they still respect us. And for us to come and have honest dialogue and maybe next year, they can correct some of those things. I just don't think social media gets room for that. So I think going back to my original question, though, when it comes to righteous cancellation, I guess ultimately there, the way I engage with people should be tempered by the context, right?

So if it's social media, social media is not a church. Social media is not a local or national denomination. Yeah. I don't know these people. I follow them and I have some sense of who they are, but I really don't know who they are. And so in essence, I need to be gracious and patient

and aware of my ignorance. Yeah. versus canceling, for lack of better words, people that I literally do life with. I can see how they love. I can see how they live. And it's not just me by myself in my observations. It's also pastors and deacons and elders and other saints within the congregation

who could then now make an informed decision about this person's behavior. Exactly. And so what we're making a distinction between is how I engage with somebody on social media has to be different than how I will engage with somebody. in my local context. Absolutely. You said it perfectly. I think that was what I was trying to say,

but you just said it more clearly. Because it is so hard to get the full picture of someone, what they meant, their heart behind it, if they feel the same way now that they felt two weeks before they said it. Like, it's so hard. Also, we have to do the hard work of saying, man, if this person is a Christian or this person claims to be a Christian, we have to trust that they are a part of a local community

that would do the work that you are attempting to try to do through Twitter or Instagram. You should be making. You are not in their local community. And so therefore, you should be trying to act like their brother. Of course, we're a global church. Right. But God was very wise in creating local communities. Right.

Particular churches. But that also doesn't mean that anybody is beyond correction. No. That's not what I'm saying. Right. There's just a way to it because I think there's a way to correct people socially that is loving and kind and also inquisitive. Yes. You're actually asking a question rather than having an accusation.

Absolutely. Versus correcting somebody with a level of entitlement where you must do what I said you should do because I'm a Christian and all that types of. Because prime example. Like when we, I hate to keep making it about us, but doing the whole election. thing. You know, anytime we came out to say anything about Trump's

character, people automatically made us Democrats. That was always you actually. Yeah. Yeah. But even when we did the whole talk on our page about race,

people automatically made us the leftists and Democrats. It's like you automatically want to put me in a category because I disagree with one aspect that you don't agree with. You know what I And so, like, I just think the way we function is, I think the church, it's so much, it's so much like the world.

I'm sorry, something just came to my spirit. What can to your soul to make you interrupt me? I wonder if one element of people's zeal to cancel is that sometimes you want to cancel people who are exposing your idols. So it isn't that this person has sinned. Come on now. Or that this person has done something wrong or that this person has harmed anybody. It's simply that they offended you. Yeah.

And you didn't like it. Yes. And so because you didn't like it, the way I'm going to suppress the truth is to cancel you. Right. And to quiet you and to mum your voice. Which is interesting when you think about it. Because a lot of the things that we hold true to is such an idol that any time somebody comes and try to make us think deeply about something that we.

been very surface level with, it offends us. For example, right? I said something along the lines on Twitter one time, I said, if you care more about abortions in America than the conditions that certain people live in that lead them to get abortions, you are also a part of the problem. Wow. Right? And so what people automatically came at me for was Preston.

Are you saying abortions are? They was in my DMs. Like, what is your husband saying? Yeah, are wrong or whatever. And so and I get the questions. And so a lot of people came in me with very sincere questions. And I made sure I answered all those sincere questions. But a lot of people were just so mad because for so long they've been used to me in a part of a particular people group in the body of Christ who for so long you've made so much noise about abortion.

And I came and just challenged you to think deeper about it. Yeah. That it's much more complex than it's been presented at. Yeah. And so this thing. that you've been so passionate about, it's kind of a part of your identity.

Yeah. As an evangelical, for sure. As an evangelical conservative Christian. And it's like, who is this black person who's telling me to think about the mothers? What? Who are you to tell me to think about the black community? In their environment.

I want to just continue to talk about the people who are getting abortions in the black community, but you're telling me to think about the whole black community as a whole? Like, I had people who just canceled me because of it, you know, and I just think that we just have to do a better job of, yeah, just seeking to understand more and doing a better job of stepping outside of our social bubble to really seek to understand people on social media

instead of just canceling the first person who says something that we don't like. Because we don't learn that way. You know, it's just, I don't know, it's sad. I think to leave on hope, because we've been kind of critical. this whole podcast. I'll start with a criticism that actually ends in hope, which is cancel culture to a certain degree can look contrary to the spirit. And by that, when you look at the fruit of the spirit,

it's love, it's joy, it's peace, it's kindness, it's gentleness, it's self-control, it's forbearance, patience. And so there's an element in which I think the world, I cannot expect the world to be able to deal with people that are offensive and that are problematic in a way that exhibits the fruit of the spirit when they don't have it. But the church, if the spirit is in us, we should be the preeminent one showing forth what patience and love and gentleness and kindness looks like. And so the need, I guess, is for us to lean into the spirit when it comes to things.

So don't hear us also say that we should look over wrongdoing and we should look over injustice. But it's the way we go about it that should show that Jesus is real. Because at the end of the day, when Jesus prayed for unity, it was an apologetic. God, may they be one so that they will believe that you sent me. So there's something to be said about the fact that if I am not walking in love towards all people, then people will doubt the coming of Jesus. And that's crazy. Yeah, yeah.

Well, not coming of Jesus, but you know. You're going to me. Yeah, and I just, I got to leave something, you know. Hopeful, you do. Hopeful because you did. But, um. He resurrected, so there's always hope. No, I guess what I'm trying to say is let the motivating factor of you canceling someone be loved and not like you, you, out of spot.

You just want to, you know, destroy this person's reputation or, you know, credibility. Like, let the motivating factor be love. Love. There's some. Many things I got to tell you, but I'm afraid I don't know how. Okay, we're over time. We're over time. We're over time.

We're over time. It's 35 minutes now. Yeah. Ever since the first moment, you're singing is canceled. Let me get to the hook. No. No, I don't want you to get to the hook. By you being in my life.

This is so worldly. to change because love. You're not a Christian. Come on, Tinner. Come on. So many things to people use. I don't want to sing this whirliness. Man, you literally just said,

let the motivating fact to be love, and then you shamed me the whole way through. I feel like being a hypocrite. I ain't never seen hypocrisy happen so quick in my life. I feel like being a hypocrite. All right, bye. Peace.