With The Perrys - Christians, It’s Time to Grow Up

Episode Date: May 11, 2026

When we’re “born again” as Christ followers, we’re babies, and “growing up” is a choice. But emotions, pride, and an endless buffet of online voices can keep new believers spiritually stuck. In this episode, Jackie and Preston discuss how spiritual maturity isn’t automatic, nor is it a checklist. We become mature by pursuing humility, having discernment about false doctrine, and establishing deep roots in a local church community. Ultimately, we have to know our Bible more than anything and come to terms with our complete dependence on God.  Tim Keller’s sermon, “Principles of Christian Growth” Part 1 – https://podcast.gospelinlife.com/e/principles-of-christian-growth-part-1/  Part 2 – https://podcast.gospelinlife.com/e/principles-of-christian-growth/  Scripture References Ephesians 4:11-15 1 Corinthians 3:1-4 Psalm 139:23-24 John 15:1-2 This Episode is Sponsored By: https://weekendtoremember.com — Register now with code PERRY to save $100 on any getaway! https://gominno.com/ — Sign up online with code PERRY to get your first month FREE! - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Spotify, it's Jay Shetty. Are you one of those media strategy people? Scrolling through spreadsheets, searching for an audience that pays twice as much attention to your ads than they do on social? Let me introduce you to fans. And they're here with me on Spotify. Trust me, I know fans. They don't skip. They stay for hours.

They don't move on. They manifest. They're not a demographic group. They're fans. Spotify advertising. You're among fans. Hi, St. Nates. How are you? What's good with y'all?

I just want to say your eyebrows is fleaky. Fleak is crazy. You know, I just want to throw it back. You know what I'm saying? It's probably, it's too early for a throwback for the word fleek. Your eyebrows is, what they be saying now, T? They're just nice. Tea?

They're nice. That's what women are we saying now to T, right? I don't want you to do that. Okay. Doesn't look right for me. Not you. You're from Chicago. I was going to bring this up to you offline, but I was like, hey, might just bring it up now.

So I was looking at the calendar, and this happened before, and it hasn't happened in a while, but my birthday and Father's Day on the same day. So what are we going to do? Wow. I'm actually kind of fine with you doing whatever you want to do, like if you want to go fishing or something, and I can stay at the crib. I'm actually kind of fine with that. No, we're not going to do that.

But then I know you're going to feel bad. Like, oh, she'll be a home on a birthday. It's like, I'll be 37. It's really insignificant. No, we're not going to, I'm planning something as soon as this podcast is over, Buckle. I really don't want to do nothing. Okay.

I mean, I got to listen to you. What are we talking about today? You didn't want to keep talking? We were really good to work this through. Mm-mm. You getting irritated? No. Okay.

So I was listening to a sermon by Tim Keller called the Principles of Christian Growth, we're going to put in the show notes, so y'all ain't got to ask me 5,000 times what the terms are. And he was basically talking about Christian maturity and how to go from like a baby Christian to a maturing Christian. Because I don't know we ever get like grown, grown, because that's probably when we die or something.

Right. But it was just such a fascinating, helpful, challenging conversation when it came to that. Because I just think, yeah, I think a lot of us are babies and don't know it. A lot of us think we're grown. A lot of us don't even have the tools needed to grow up.

And so, yeah, I just thought it would be a cool conversation to talk about how to grow up as a Christian. Yeah, when you brought the idea to me to talk about this the other day, I don't know if it was yesterday. It was yesterday. Yesterday. I thought it was such a dope topic because as I travel more, more, I realize that it's such a broad age demographic who listens to our podcasts and people who are in different levels of their faith walk. And because there is different levels of spiritual maturity, I think it's a conversation

that can be applied to every believer. And so I just thought it was a dope, dope type. When you think of a baby Christian, what is that person? I think a baby Christian is someone who, who is new to the faith, who probably just got introduced to Jesus, who just got acquainted with the Bible and the church and trying to figure out they've become a Christian

by faith, by justification, but trying to practically figure out how to be a Christian. I think, you know, And I think, you know, that it's levels to that. But I think the issue just coming to Christ is kind of like, you know. Yeah. Because I think I think it's wise for scripture to use really, I don't know, familial terms when it comes to descriptions in the sense of to be a Christian is to be born again. Yeah.

And so it makes sense that when you're born again, you are in fact a baby. You are a child. And a part of being a child is you don't know what to do. You don't know how to walk. You don't know how to talk. You don't know how to feed yourself. You don't know how to go to sleep without somebody. Like you need a degree of nurture that sets you apart as a baby.

I think when you met me, I was definitely a baby Christian. Yeah. Because I had probably been a Christian maybe six months. Yeah. And I think I was probably an adolescent. No, no, no, no. A toddler. Yeah.

Yeah. I think that's a, I think that's a good description. I was a toddler. I was probably like four. Yeah, I was six months old. And I think a part of that season for me that was so, it was uncomfortable. Because, you know, when you first come to Christ, you're trying to lay aside all this, big stuff, you know what I'm saying?

So you're breaking up with people and you're cutting off this music and you're not watching that and you're not doing this and it's like, oh, I got that thought. I just read it in the Bible yesterday. I'm not supposed to have that thought. So what am I supposed to do with that thought? You think I remember for so long I kept thinking the devil listening to my thoughts. And so it's like, I'm over

here just stressing out. I went to a church where you know, we communicated God speaking to us all the time. So it was like every thought I I had, I thought, is it God? Is it not God? Is it? So there was this there was this intense zeal, but also incredible instability. Yeah.

Because I just didn't know what I was doing. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, yeah, I had the same, similar, you know, situations when I was a baby. It's interesting that you talked about, you know, how we are a baby when we come to the faith. Because the first thing that I thought about is how vulnerable babies are. That's good. They're just at a very vulnerable state, which is the real. reason why the scripted talks about guarding young believers so so much because they are vulnerable.

And I think just being careful about what we digest. Just thinking about that like because I didn't know. When I was a baby, I just didn't know what to do, where to go, who to listen to, what to listen to. And I think a lot of people who listen to this podcast, I get questions like that all the time. You know what I'm saying? I think the advantage we had in that season, truly, is that podcasts weren't a thing, because this is, I met you in 2009, so I was 20. Podcasts weren't a thing like that. YouTube was, but, you know, it was us watching a soldier girl,

you know, soldier girl, I mean, like, it was stuff like that. It wasn't like long-form conversations. Right. And so there was no Instagram, maybe Twitter, for sure, Facebook. And so I point that out because we didn't actually actually have to deal with sifting through all of these teachers, all of these podcasts, all of these books, all of these resources, and getting lost in the sauce.

We had pastors. Yeah. Like we went to church and we listened to our pastors and we listened to the people around us that we knew and had access to. And I think this generation has such a significant temptation to be following way too many rabbis, like way too many. That's good. It's like, oh, this podcast is interesting because they tell me the deep spirit.

spiritual thing. And this podcast is interesting because they give me theology. And that's why people have a difficult time finding a church. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's like you're so used to the buffet that the internet offers you that you don't know how to just settle in one church that may not be giving you all the things. They just, they're giving you what you need, not necessarily what you want. Yeah, that's good. That's good. I just came back from Chicago, did an event with Dr. Charlie dates. And a girl got up on a mic and asked me and Charlie. That very same question. She was like, like how do I know who to listen to? She's like, I've been going to this church talking about Pastor Dr. Charlie Day's church,

but she was like, how do I discern who to listen to? And, you know, Charlie gave her a good answer, and I answered secondly. But in my mind, the only thing I kept thinking about is like, man, I don't think you should be listened to all of these people at once. And I know, like I, and so for me, I think sometimes I can have the temptation to think that way because of how I came up into faith originally. But the reality is... That's where we are now.

It's just what we are now. And so I guess my question to you is, like, how healthy is it for people to have so many voices? And what are the benefits of living in a time where people are being disciples really through social media? I don't know. I think a big component of wisdom, because this is a wisdom question. Yes. is knowing your Bible more than anything, truly. I think the more you drink the Bible, the more you drink the scripture,

the more you spend time with the Lord. He gives you the language and the lenses to sift through who is necessary and who is not. Because some people might be good, but unhelpful, you know. But I also think with that if you read through the New Testament in particular, what you're going to continue to come against or what you're going to continue to discover is Paul and Peter's emphasis, and Jesus's emphasis on the body. Yeah, the local community. And so I think the greater question, yes, who should I listen to? I need to discern all this, that type of stuff. But it's also what house do I need to submit to? You know what I'm? That will make the difference. That's good.

Because the things that have helped me grow, the people who have helped me change have not all been people who I don't have access to. It's been people that I know and people who know me. And so I think switch the question to say, Lord, what church do you want me to attend? What leaders do you want me to connect with? How do you want me to be disciple locally? And that naturally will help you not need so many internet resources. Yeah, that's good. That's good.

We know, God made marriage. Marriage matters. Beautiful thing. Wonderful union. Hard and stuff. Whatever season your marriage is in, I don't know the Lord does. but whether you need rescue or renewal, a weekend of intentional time together

can be the turning point that changes everything. Weekend to remember has helped millions of couples over the last 40 years with 80 events across the country, so there's likely one near you. During our time at Weekend to remember, I was very impressed in how intentional the activities were. I was very impressed with how intentional they put a lot of work in allowing couples,

married couples to connect. I felt myself thinking about things, that I didn't think about before, I went to weekend to remember. And also, I was just blessed to see so many age groups. You know, a lot of times you think you need to work on your marriage when you're 10, you know, 15 years in. I'm seeing people there working on the marriage 40 years in. And so, man, it just blessed me to see that God has really given them a heart from marriage and helping so many people around the country. Learn practical, biblical tools for communication, conflict, and connection and come home closer than when you left. Register now with Cole Perry

to save $100 on any getaway at weekendorremember.com. That's weekendorremember.com, code Perry. I think local community is so, so vital and so key. Because I think as it pertains to our spiritual maturity, you know, a lot of times, you know, when I'm disciplining young men in my local community, oftentimes when young men come to me, I'm finding myself having to kind of like pull them away from

unhealthy people that they listen to on social media. Right. And I have to explain to him why this is not healthy. Now, I'm not one of those cult leaders why I'm doing that because I only want the people I disciple to listen to me. Yeah, no.

But I'm actually pointing them to other people in the body who I do think is helpful because I think, unfortunately, in today's age, we are actually not like, we're naturally not going to, like, our flesh is not naturally going to go to people online who challenge us, but people who kind of feed our flesh, you know what I'm saying, and feed our desires in a lot of ways.

And I think the local community is a great God to kind of sift out. Like, even to question our motives, like, why are you listened to this person? And what is this person, like, actually giving you, you know? And knowledge of the word is pivotal because even the church you pick might be unwise, right? Even the leadership you pursue might not be helpful. And so I think spending time in the epistles, what is the church? What is a healthy pastor? Let me look at Titus.

Let me look at Timothy. Let me discern through the scriptures and then apply that into all of my questions, into my perspective. Like the scriptures has to become the framework by which we discern everything. You know what I'm saying? It really is a lamp unto our feet. The scripture that came in my mind is a few. Ephesians 4, verse 11, where Paul says, and he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists,

the shepherds, and teachers to equip the saints for the work of ministry for building up the body of Christ until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the son of God to mature manhood. I'm going to keep reading verse 14, so that we may no longer be children Tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine by human cunning by craftiness and deceitful skinks Rather speaking the truth and love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head Look, look, I just want to let you know we was in a spirit Look at you. I was about to read.

Is that my Bible? Yeah, I was about to read that same verse. It is your Bible. You feel that leather? I was about to read that same verse. You feel the leather? That's a... It is.

It's really nice. Yeah, I need to... When you get this? It was a gift. I need to put it back in the book show. Oh, okay. No, you should use it now. We need to work. I say that because Paul is listing these different categories and these different offices that all serve to equip us, not only for the work of ministry, but to help us grow up. You know what I'm saying?

And so that even is a challenge to the temptation to feel as if what you get on the Internet is sufficient to make you mature. It's not. You know what I'm saying? the pastor is in a church. You know what I'm saying? The evangelist should be functioning within a church. Like these offices are church offices, and they help produce the fruit that keeps us from being led it straight from all these crazy people.

And I love the two emphasis on that scripture. I love that it emphasizes crisis dissension to the earth. And I love that it emphasizes the leaders in the local community helping us to obtain Christ in order for us to be mature. because one, it shows us that spiritual maturity actually doesn't really come apart from God's local community. But it also talks about how Jesus coming, he is the model of our spiritual maturity, not this podcast necessarily. And so, like, let me ask you this. We're talking about a lot of spiritual maturity, maturity.

What is spiritual immaturity? Immaturity. Well, I think that's a helpful question in the number. the sense that I think we think maturity happens because of time when maturity happens because of choice. Break that down. I mean, I'm sure you know somebody that had been in Christ for 20 years and they act like they did when they met them. Like there are still the same character flaws. There are still the same preferences.

There are still the same, you know, behavior. that they used to, like, it's like, why haven't you died to that yet? So are you saying, are you saying that the choices that we make ultimately help us mature into believers? Maturity is a choice. Yeah. So, because I know people who have accelerated in their maturity faster than people who are older than them

because they are deciding to make every effort to grow. And so I think when you talk about spiritual maturity, is maturity ultimately is we are all saved, justified, regenerated, united with Christ, predestined to be conformed into the image of his son. And so maturity is the degree of in which that conformity is discernible, right? And so how much do I look like Christ now than I did five months ago, five years ago, 10 seconds ago? Am I continuing to grow and mature and look like him. Do I still talk the same? Do I still want the same? Do I still have the same palette for those things? That is spiritual maturity. What would you say to the person who

say like, like, because I do think that there is a particular Christian believe a person out there who believes that their choices as it relates to works makes them mature. Interesting. Yeah. Right. And so when you say choices, I just kind of want to distinguish that from works. Rather than you making decisions that will ultimately bring maturity. Like how would you... Well, even that's a sign of immaturity. That's why I asked the question. Because immaturity says if I just say no to this, that makes me mature.

Maturity says I'm saying no by faith. I'm saying no because of love. And I'm also discerning the motives behind why I even say yes in the first place. That's good. That's good. And that's a good distinction because my act of saying no actually will produce maturity, not automatically make me mature. Because I think a lot of times people judge spiritual maturity off this checklist.

I don't do this. So I'm mature. I don't do that. So I'm faithful. I don't do this. So, you know, this one girl had critiqued me because I had like a Kendra Lamar shirt on. She was like, you ain't, you ain't, you a baby in a faith. I was like, because a shirt.

And I said, you're actually probably an infant in the faith trying to act like a giant because you're trying to judge my righteousness about something that I have on now how I treat people and how I love God. Right. And so like I think that distinction is good because I think when we make those choices, I think those choices then produce faith in us and produce maturity in us. So that's good. Yeah, I mean, let's give some examples. Like what are, because ultimately what I'm trying to say, is that we have to decide to grow up. Yeah. We have to decide to do that. Yeah. And so it doesn't mean that the degree of our decision

will also accelerate our maturity because ultimately it's God who brings the growth. Yeah. But it does put us in the pathway of power where God can help us look more like his son. So my question is, I guess when you think of your life when you first came to Christ and maybe like the first few years,

how did you see God using, yeah, circumstances, different calls, different people to kind of push you out there where it's like, all right, now, President. You got to grow up. You got to grow up now. Yeah, yeah. I think I'm going to talk about myself, but in talking about myself, I want to just kind of highlight what I think spiritual maturity,

immaturity looks like. That's good. In a lot of ways, I'm still growing up, but I was really immature in the faith. And I think one of the things that my leader, Brian, Gary, early on, even my aunt, who was very vital in my spiritual walk early on when I lived with her helped me to see was that I knew Jesus, but because I was spiritually immature, I did not know how to take correction. That's a huge sign. Yeah. So spiritual immature people, they don't know how to take correction.

Spiritual immature people don't, like, they're led by their emotions, not led by the spirit or the scriptures. And so, like, wherever my emotions went, I went with it. And so I didn't know how to cipher, like, I didn't know how to, like, sift my emotions through the lens of scripture. I still just acted how I acted when I was in the world. And it was mature believers about coming into my life saying Preston, you're a Christian now. Like, you don't act like that anymore. And like, but like not just telling me, but showing me.

You remember once, I probably told us on podcast, remember I judged you when we were building a friendship because we had went to like some event or something. And you kind of hit that person in car. Oh, yeah. Like you like bumped it, but you hit it Like you hit it and you was like All right y'all let's go. I was like you're not going to leave it.

No, no. You making me sound way better than I actually did. I was like, oh, time to go. Oh, I don't remember that. I like whipped it. And I'm like, the way I grew up. Yeah, it's like it is what it is. It is what it is. And you was like, no, like we have to stay here and contact them.

I was like, oh, it is the Christian thing to do. And what I said was right, but it wasn't coming from a place of maturity. it was also coming from self-righteousness. Because I was in a context where you got to do the right thing or you are going to hell. You know what I'm saying? So in my mind, I'm like, absolutely not. You got to write them a note or something

because God isn't pleased with this. So even probably the way I communicated it had a harshness to it, which I think is also a sign of spiritual immaturity, is how you communicate truth is very telling. You know what I'm saying? Like, do you love people? Yeah.

You know what I'm saying? You know, find the stuff for your kids to watch can be a bit difficult and complicated. You know what I'm saying? Because we want them to watch stuff that ain't going to ruin their mind, ruin their heart, or, you know, make them love the devil. You want something fun, but also want something that's, you know, going to point them to the Lord Jesus because we love them. And that's where Minow comes in.

Meno makes it simple for families to grow in faith together. It's actually the number one destination for Christian kids' content, which shows that help their imagination and help them understand who God is. They got favorites on there, like laugh and grow by. Bible, young David, the Dead Sea squirrels, God's greenhouse, veggie tales, and some other stuff. Every show and devotional is designed to fill their minds with what matters most. And now your mental membership includes a brand new audio feature with 100 hours of Bible stories, faith-filled adventures, kids, podcasts, music, and more just for kids.

It's perfect for bedtime, quiet time, and when you're on the go with features like screen off listening, car play, and Android Auto. It's ad-free too. So ain't no distractions. just faith-filled audio kids love. With Meno, kids don't just watch something good. They grow up in it. You said a lot, but the thing that I love that you said the most is ad-free

because that's what the devil would be trying to creep in with you look kids. Correct. Trying to, like, you know, put, like, nasty and sinful stuff in front of them. So the fact that our kids can watch golly shows without having to worry about some ungodly ad popping up on their face, I think it's a win. Visit go-minto.com to start your free trial today. Plus, you can use the code Perry to get your first month free.

This is a web-only exclusive offer. So make sure to sign up on the go-mino.com website with Code Perry to get your first month free. Yeah, so for me, I just, I didn't know how to take correction. I didn't know how to, like, sit in that rebuke. I just felt attacked. And so I, like, lashed out at people. you'd up said um and then too i just didn't know how to submit to a local church body i think submit like my lack of submission to other christians it felt like slavery

it felt like control it felt like control um and so yeah i lacked humility i lacked you know and it was all because i just didn't know jesus as intimately as i as i should and i think the more I started to know Jesus. And then more I started to, like, because I think oftentimes when we become Christian, everybody wants to gain spiritual maturity so quick. And I think our flesh tries to make us judge our maturity off of other flawed human beings to say,

I'm mature because I'm, but it's like, no, when Christ is actually the standard. Correct. You see how far you are from spiritual maturity. And so when I started to see Jesus, it's like, no, like Jesus was God in the flesh, but he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the depth of the cross. Like, and I'm over here acting pride for it with my local church community. Like even Jesus, like, submitted himself to the same people he created. Even Jesus didn't, like, he didn't even respond negatively when people said he was demon possessed.

You're Christ. Yeah, for sure. And you got Pharisees calling you demon possessed. and you ain't saying tomorrow, you ain't going to wake up tomorrow, you know what I'm saying? Because I'm the son of God. And I'm over here offended

because I think I'm so righteous and somebody's critique of me is making me feel like, you know, I'm not who I quote a quote or am. And so like preparing my life to Jesus was the measure of how I started to grow in my faith. Yeah, I think maturity, because I am maturing.

I'm not going to say I'm mature. maturity for me has taken place through me redefining the metric by which I discern maturity. By that, I mean, when I first came to Christ, I was, well, I still am, but I was smart. I was able to read scripture and kind of internalize it and process it really quickly. like I had a really apt, I think, understanding of complex theological ideas, not like a lot of debt, but something that it was just like, it was really just God's gift. It wasn't my maturity. And I started to think that because I was useful and because I was intelligent that that therefore meant I was mature. And it's like, I think that's a difficult thing for people to like,

like read themselves of is realizing just because you know the text doesn't mean you've absorbed it just because you understand these really wise ideas doesn't mean you're wise you know what I'm saying like you have to live that thing out like let me like I remember the one the one somebody that was walking with me they was like how are you getting on social media are you getting on your phone no I was I was checking time okay they're like how are you getting how you getting on social media, like you just got out to work, you jumping on social media to share it before you even applied it. I was like, you're right.

It's like, like, you're communicating it so quickly. And well. Yeah, as if you learn to obey it now. Like, you haven't even learned how to obey it. You just got out of the book. And so I think it's been a lot of years where God continues to bring me really low to show me that you often know more than what you're able to do. And so your knowledge does not necessarily communicate your wisdom.

Yeah. Or it does. Yeah, that's good. But I want to encourage you, though. Okay. I want to encourage you because some years ago, this is when we lived in Chicago. I was talking to. You're rubbing your hands together.

I don't know what that means. Yeah, I was talking to this one girl who was having some struggles, you know, in her marriage. And she was a smart girl. And yeah, she was brilliant. She loved to read. She knew a lot of scripture. And she often complained about her husband to people, you know. And her complaints was my husband is not spiritually mature, spiritually mature.

And as a young leader in the church, one of the things I had to do is I had to challenge her to say he's actually probably way more mature than you think he is. And you're probably way more immature than you think you are. because the fact that you're blasting him publicly shows your immaturity. And the fact that, you know, and so if he knows five scriptures and you know 150, and he's applying those five scriptures properly, she's probably more spiritually maturity than you. And when I taught to communicate to her, and granted, that was years ago, you know, I struggle having a filter now, so I'm probably going to say that more graciously. But one of the things I realize is not only was she immature, she was.

sure she was blind. Interesting. Right. And so, so therefore it was a lot of pride. Yeah. Even as it related to her immaturity,

which made it hard for her to grow. And I think that, I think that with you, I see, I'm your husband and so I see all of your flaws and all of the ways in which you grow, have to grow up in the faith.

But I see somebody who's never blind to their own immaturity and who's always looking to grow and always like, because it's dangerous when a person don't see themselves. Oh, horrific. It's dangerous. It's a scary thing. It's dangerous.

And so when I talk to my brothers in the faith and they're talking about how to help their wives grow, I always make them pay attention to that their wives actually see and how encouraged they should be by that. And I think that's the measure in which we all should be encouraged by our own maturity because the Pharisees were actually spiritually immature people

but they were also blind. They weren't even spiritually alive. It wasn't daily. It was spiritually dead. But what I'm saying is they thought that they had great faith because they were blind. And I think that if God has shown us that we are immature one, that that's actually a great that you said that. It might be, it's be more encouraged that you're alive in Christ, that you have faith, that your faith is alive, because as long as your faith is alive, the Holy Spirit can help sanctify you. I'm glad you brought that up

because I do think the path of maturity is also the path of self-awareness. And like, the Lord, I've said this on the podcast before, but the Lord is very patient. There is always more in us than we are even aware of. Always more.

I remember hearing Paul Washer say this when I was like a new believer. He was saying the closer you get to Christ, the more sinful you'll see yourself as. And a lot of times you think, oh, the holier I am or the more intimate I am with God or the closer I am with God, as if that proximity will give you more security. In a sense it does, in a sense it doesn't. Because you actually see yourself clearer, the more close you get to God. It's much like Isaiah 6. Isaiah is like at the throw. And he says, I'm a man of unclean lips. And I dwell in the midst of people of unclean lips

from my eyes have seen the king. That ain't even like, in our minds, a deep struggle. Like for him to be like, oh, it's just your mouth? And he's like, no, like, I'm in the presence of holiness where even the things you call little are big. Yeah. And I think that is the difference when it comes to maturity. It's like the more close I get to God,

the more clearer I should see myself. And that's so good that you're saying. that because I think the reason why we see ourselves, the closer we get to God, is because we realize that God does not measure spiritual maturity like humans does. Absolutely not. Right. And so because we measure spiritual, he big in the faith. He prophesied.

Y'all don't buy yeke. She's big in the faith. She's seeing the spirit. It's like, no, if she doesn't know how to not gossip, she's probably not spiritually mature. I don't know. I don't care how many gifts you see are walking in. We really have to read First Corinthians all the way through. Right.

Like we really do. Because they were what you would call spiritual monsters. They are walking in all the gifts and not an ounce of love. And Paul is like, y'all are clanging gongs, meaning to God, y'all just making noise. Yeah, absolutely. Y'all look powerful. To God, y'all are weak. Yeah.

And I see a lot of that on the socials. Absolutely. Because, like, that, you know, First Corinthians 13 is quoted at, you know, weddings and stuff like that. It's like, love is this, love is that. but it's like it was actually a rebuke to the church. Yes. It is saying y'all out here doing a whole bunch of gifts and operating them a whole bunch of gifts, but y'all actually are still babies in the faith.

And I think the reason why when we, the closer we get to Christ, we start to see ourselves and our spiritual immaturities because God doesn't measure spiritual maturity by works or acts, but by the heart. He judges the heart. And so the more you get to close to Christ, it's like, oh, I'm, I've been operating in this gift that he gave me for the last seven years, but my heart is actually the same in so many ways. And that could be a very humbling thing.

And this is the reason why Paul called himself the least of these. This is the reason why the Apostle Paul, the man who God used to write the majority of the New Testament, says, I am the least, not because he was necessary to lease academically, not necessarily because he was the least when it came to operating in gifts, because he was in tune with how wicked his heart was. And I think a lot of times we just don't measure spiritual maturity by this.

We measure spiritual maturity by like how will we prophesy, how will we teach and all of the things. And God is like, I'm not looking at maturity in that way. Truly, the most powerful people are the ones who know they're the weakest. Yes. That's just a fact. One scripture I wanted to read and comment on that we should all get in our systems is Psalm 139, where David says,

search me, oh God, and know my heart, try me and know my thoughts and see if there be any grievous way in me and lead me in the way everlasting. Those kinds of prayers are scary. Yeah. Let me follow this through. It's scary because self-knowledge comes with shame.

And I think an element of shame sometimes is pride. Yeah. where you realize you're not as dope as you thought you were. So instead of turning to Christ in faith and repentance, we turn to ourselves in pity. And so it leads us to run from accountability. It leads us to run from transparency. It leads us to run from prayer simply because we are running

from the truth about ourselves. And that is another sign of either immaturity or levels of immaturity, even in a mature Christian. And I say that because the anchoring thing that precipitates maturity is faith. Yeah. We are growing in deeper faith in God in his gospel, how he views us, how he sees us, how he dies, how he loves us. And I've become a little more courageous and praying stuff like that because I know

if God shows me, he's doing it because he loves me. Does it make sense? It's like he's not showing me that to condemn me because there is no condemnation. He's not showing me that to judge me per se. He's showing me that because he's like, this is an area in your heart, an area in your life, that I actually want freedom for you from. I want freedom.

And so if we know that God's aim in my life is freedom and conformity to Christ, that gives me courage to actually pray prayers like that. And I think that that would actually help a lot of us in a lot of different ways to just see who we are. Yeah, because that's really, good because I think a lot of times when we think about spiritual maturity, I think we think about being used by the Lord. But it's like, I think God, I often say this, like, it's hard for God to use

anybody who don't see themselves. And so what you're essentially saying is like, Lord, show me you, but also show me me me. So I can see myself properly. And so that I can be used properly. Because it's hard for God to use somebody who don't see themselves. And I struggle with, I still struggle with that if I'm being honest. I definitely do. But I'm more prone to say the hard thing because I've experienced too many failures from my own ignorance. I think when you realize how much ignorance is unhelpful, it makes you like, ah, let me stop doing it. But one thing I was going to say is I really like watching sports documentaries. I don't even like sports like that. But you love the documentaries. I love the documentaries because they're so insightful and I think

even like comparable to the Christian walk. Because one thing about these upper echelon athletes, they know every weakness they have. Every single one of them. And I said this before, but we watched this documentary about track stars. And one of the trainers was like, all of these stars run fast.

He was like, so my training of them is not to help them run fast. He was like, it's to help them run fast well. And it was like this subtle, it's like, no, you already are running fast, but I'm, I'm going to talk about how your foot is landing or the arch or the way you get off of the little thing when they shoot the gun. Like, it's these, you need to be aware of the weaknesses so that you can actually discover how to overcome them, overcome them and win the race. And I think that's easier for us to do in sports than it is for us to do in our Christian life. And I think that's why Paul always compares even maturity and all of that to athleticism. It's like run the race that it said before you.

How about laying aside every sin and the weight that's so easily entangles? Like, I beat my body like an athlete. It's like we got to look at even what God exposes, not from the framework of condemnation, but from the framework of God is just wanting you to be a better runner. That's so good. That is so good. And it's low key. Glad it encouraged you.

No, it is. It's really good because, you know, I see. I see young Christians online, and I'd be wanting to, like, I'd be trying not to be that uncle that want to correct everybody. You are that uncle. You know how to uncle to be want to correct everybody. But it's like, no, I've actually been where you are. And I'm actually still struggled with the things that you struggle with.

I just struggle with it differently now. You know what I'm saying? It's like, I'm not better. I just struggle differently, right? Because I'm more aware of my sin and all of that. But I love that you even brought up the sports things because the best athletes, were the ones who actually absorbed criticism the best and applied the criticism

and they became great, right? Because I think the temptation for the runner to be like, man, I run fast. What are you talking about? Why are you critiquing anything? And I think for us as believers, I think our pride, we want to be giants in the faith so fast.

We want to feel like we are big in the faith So much, right? And so this is the reason why you got a whole bunch of babies walking around acting like their giants. And so the moment you critique them, you're at, you actually are showing how fragile you really are the way you take criticism. It's like, ooh, that hurts because you're really not big in the faith yet. But why do you want to be big in the faith? Because when you are big in the faith, you get really big trials. But when I'm saying is, why is that the goal?

Yeah. That's a part of the self-awareness here because that means you want to be somebody. Yeah. When it's like greatest in the kingdom is servant of all. Paul says, no, like I asked three times when to take this thing away. He's like, yeah, my strength is sufficient in weakness. So when I am weak, then I am strong. And so the pursuit can't be of being big in the faith, but it has to be being low before God.

Like that has to be. Like, we have to change our minds about how we view this whole Christian thing. I think because, sorry to cut you off. It's like when you came to Christ, you came to a cross. Mm-hmm. You understand what I'm like? If any man follow me, he must take up his cross and die. And it's just like, it's given y'all want to live, but y'all don't want to die.

That's actually the whole thing. And so until we want to die, we will never be powerful or strong or big. And even these adjectives, they're just weird to me. There has to be something demonic about that. Because even like, no, truly, even Paul, even Jesus, one of the temptations he received is for him to jump off the cliff so that everybody would perceive him as something because the angels rescued him. He wanted him to grab power in a way that God had actually not designed.

And I just, I don't know. think we need to be aware of that pride because that's that's because I think I think it's not good like even a couple seconds ago I said like you get a lot of attacks when you when you're big but I but what I'm trying to communicate is I think the way people judge being big in the faith is how much they're used and I think you being useful with gifts is never a way for you to measure your faith right because the like notice how the scripture doesn't say um in the last day the Lord, people would say, Lord, did not prophesy your name, didn't I cast out demons in your name, yada, yada, yada. Notice how I did not say, Lord, I thought I prophesied in your name. No, they did. I thought I cast out demons in your name. It's like, right? And so they actually did, which means that people actually will operate in gifts. Yes. But at the end of the day, they still don't know Jesus. Correct. And so gifts can never be the measure of how you measure. how big you are in the faith.

Right. Being like Jesus is the only way you can measure how big you are in the faith. And this same Jesus condescended came from heaven to earth to die for the same people that he created. Pharisees, I want to go back because I was reading this the other day

and I was just like, man. It's hidden in your heart. Pharisees accused this man of being demon possessed. And you're going off on people on social media because they said you wasn't what. It's like, like,

you wasn't what is crazy. You know what I'm saying? Like, and so like when we see how, how low Jesus became and how he and how he lived this, this, this human life, that has to be the measure of how we measure

greatness. And if we're not measuring it off of Jesus, I think our measurements are all wrong. And, yeah, there's so much to be said. this been on my mind I'm gonna just say it out loud What?

You know how we got all these people on TikTok that always got a word? Oh my goodness They just always got a word I woke up at 3 a.m. And the Lord gave me a word. I woke up at 6.12 a.m.

And the Lord gave me a word. I woke up at this time and the Lord gave me a word. And it's always a word that's gonna get you views. It's always a warning. And I'm like, so God ain't never got nothing nice to say.

Like every, every, everything got to say is a warning. And there's always a warning detached from the gospel. It's always a warning detached from hope. It's always a warning. Like, anyway, what's ironic to me is how differently they seem to move from Paul. Because in 2nd Corinthians 12, Paul has a vision and he's trying to detach himself from the visions that he's seen so much that he talks about. about it in third person. That's one. Two, the Lord gives him the thought. I was looking for the scripture. You got the book in your lap. I understand it's second Corinthians 12th. Sheesh. I just thought

I was being ignored. No, I was you see I responded really patiently and kindly. See, I'm trying to follow you. I understand. I ain't want to be slipping through the pages. It's all right. Second Corinthians 12. Okay, go. All right. Chapter four. I mean, verse four, verse seven. So, to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh. I just think it's interesting that y'all got all these revelations and y'all don't got no thorns. It's just like the Lord actually sins trials and circumstances.

And it's a thorn sent from, like, it's a messenger of Satan. So God even uses Satan to keep Paul humble because of the revelation. And I just feel like if y'all was going through, that you probably wouldn't be talking so much. Go ahead. No. I just, I don't,

I just be like, so y'all don't, y'all not getting beat up by the day. Like, y'all, I just, I don't know. I just think,

yeah, that's good. I think intimacy would, and, you know, people say, well, the prophets and da, blah,

y'all ain't Elijah, a lot, y'all ain't them, you are Tisha. You know what I'm saying? You are, you are, you are,

you are, like, you are, you are James, walking what you are called to, But all I'm ultimately trying to say is even the way we posture these gifts is so different from the people who walked in the same gifts in the scriptures. And what I'm seeing is a positioning of yourself rather than a lowering of yourself. You're telling me that God don't never tell you to keep that a secret.

I think when you are married to somebody, when you are best friends with somebody, when you are intimate with somebody, he's going to say a lot to you that he just wants you to intercede about and not always air out, not even air out within a local body. or a local church or a local city how the prophets functioned, but online? Yeah, that's so good. That's so good. So many things I pop it up in my head because when you brought that up, I'm thinking about,

it's hard for me not to think about the character of God and how, and the character that I see on social media. Because it don't be matching. And what I mean is, it's like God often sent prophets in the Old Testament, but one thing we know,

know about God is he's slow to anger. And so even how the prophets moved, they gave people warnings after God gave people a lot of chances. You making a TikTok about this and it happened that week. It's like God ain't talking to you.

He ain't giving you immediate revelation about every single thing in the news on social media. It's like, I mean, he said Moses to set the capital's free after, you know, after they were in slavery. for years and years and

ever, ever trust a prophet who always has a warning and never preaches the gospel. I will never ever trust a prophet who always has a word of condemnation and never a word of grace.

I will never, ever trust a prophet who always has something to say and no scripture to back it up with. I just don't, to me, that is how you have discernment. is you know your Bible. And when you know your Bible,

then you know when people are walking in things that the Bible has actually not affirmed. That's good. I'm sorry. That's good. I'll step off my bedroom. And I'll say, I ain't saying God don't use a prophetic. He absolutely does.

But I'm saying Satan does too. And so we have to be able to discern. Yeah, because I think, and I want to address what you just said about knowing the Bible because I think in the past I've heard people say, y'all are teachers and these are prophets. Oh my gosh. That really don't even make sense.

You're about to ruffle my feathers. That really don't make sense. It's like, no, knowing the Bible actually helps you to know Christ because this is the way in which he has revealed himself to the world. The Bible is prophetic. The Bible is the most prophetic thing that we can ever read. And I think that when you know Jesus, you know what's not him. And so, like, like the Lord is slow to anger. He's slow to speak.

Abounding and stiff-ass love. Our bounding and steadfast love. He's never rejoicing in evil. He's never rejoicing in the demise of other people. He's not, he's not, he doesn't have a word for people with a smile on his face. You know what I'm saying? Like, like he's grieved. Jeremiah was the weeping prophet.

Right. He was the weeping prophet. And so like, I think what we're ultimately saying is I think as we mature in faith, we, we know who to listen to. We know not who to listen to. not because of signs and wonders, even things coming to pass. Because a lot of times that's how a lot of prophets get y'all. They say a word and it comes to pass. But Deuteronomy lets us know that even if a word comes to pass,

it's because the Lord is testing you. Hello. And he's saying, I'm allowing these things to come to pass by false prophets to show y'all, y'all actually looking for signs and not me. And do you know how he distinguishes it? He says, yeah, what they said was true, but their character is bad. therefore they're still false. Yes.

And so God is saying, God is saying, so that's the scary part. I actually will allow false prophets to give a word that will come to pass so that y'all will believe them. So in the end, I would say, y'all never knew me because y'all was looking for signs, not the Christ.

Yeah. Not my character. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And so I think that's why people be falling into listening to false prophets all the time is because y'all are looking for signs and wonders. y'all don't actually recognize the character of God.

And so when somebody comes acting like Satan and gives you a word that comes to Pash, you follow them. And let's be clear, it's also false prophets in the political arena. Oh, yes, it is. Who leverage Christian ideals and ethics and passages to promote a particular agenda that has nothing to do with Christ, that has nothing to do with the widow, that has nothing to do with the prisoner,

that has nothing to do with not just the unborn but those who are alive. That too is a form of false prophecy. And so I just think, I don't know how we got here. I just, I don't know how we got here, but we're here. I think we got. Can I say one more thing since we on this rant? I remember. How do we get here?

I don't actually remember. I remember, you know, I see a lot online. And I was just seeing a bunch of rebukes from. so-called prophets and stuff, I said, why they ain't never saying about it? That's what I'm saying. I just, I said,

I said they seem so content with, it just seemed like they were so non-affected by judgment. You understand what I'm saying? That's what I mean, though. And I'm like, Jesus, he would weep

over people not coming to him. Jeremiah was sad. Paul was like, I would give myself for y'all to be saved. And I think that's an area of discernment where we're very, very weak in is where we don't see how a lack of love, even within saying a hard word, might actually be communicating the character of the person that's talking. And what I'm thankful about this conversation is that y'all know I'm not afraid to say hard stuff. Y'all know I'm not afraid to confront idols in the culture and do all the things. So obviously, I'm not a pansy talking about grace as if grace is a cover up for sin. The Bible tells us that grace teaches us to say no to sin. But what I am saying is that even how you

communicated and the emotional world in which you communicated still says something about your love for people. Like if there is a dishonoring of people and not a dignifying of people in these gifts is something off. Since we're here, I'm I might as well just say it. Can I say it? We'll edit it if it's crazy. I'm going to just say it. I think how we got here is because we're talking about spiritual maturity.

And I think in talking about spiritual maturity, we have a lot of people who are immature in the faith because they're listening to people who are not actually in the faith. They're just listening to people who are actually not in the faith. And I think that when we think about, because, listen, I'm sorry, I'm, I think it's the truth, right? Because I think, I think the reason why you don't see, you don't see grief in communicating these, these warnings or these prophecies, it's because their reward is actually people believing them. That's their reward. And so, you see a satisfaction.

You see, but this is the scary part. The reason why they're confident that their word will come to pass is because they're actually hearing from the spiritual world, but not Jesus. They're hearing from demons. And so what's happening is, y'all are listening to people who are actually hearing. But if you are a mature Christian says, I'm not going to pay attention to what happens or what don't happen. I'm going to pay attention to do you look like Jesus? Knowing what Jesus looks like, you know what he doesn't look like. And so that is how you know.

Maybe I might be listening to somebody who's acting like a Christian but has an altar in their room. Well, that's what itching ears is, is that, you know, when you have an itching ear. Am I making sense? Yeah. When you have an itching ear, it says you accumulate teachers to suit your own passions. And as I've communicated in my sermon on it, it's like the only way you can accumulate teachers that suit your own passions, those teachers have to share those same passions. And so those teachers are submitted to those same things that you two are submitted to. And that's why they teach what they teach.

And so I think the responsibility comes back on us to have a self-awareness about ourselves, our desire for power, our desire for attention, our desire for fame, even how I think having. a root of bitterness is coloring a lot of this stuff, where we are channeling our anger and our pain through the prophetic rather than surrendering that to God as a refuge. And so I think when we deal with our hearts, it naturally clarifies our ears and who we listen to. That's so good. Growing in spiritual maturity actually helps you not to be, you know, swayed by any false doctrine because you're actually being motivated by the right things and not your insecurities. It's spiritual maturity and we're going to move on. But, you know, Even spiritual maturity doesn't just show itself in following.

That's why Paul in Ephesians 4, if you remember the verse I said, is like as you grow up into Christ, you won't be tossed to and fro by every wind and wave of doctrine. The maturity keeps you from the deceit. But it's not just following probably the wrong communicator. Sometimes immaturity is following the right communicator, but in a divisive way. And what I mean is in 1st Corinthians three, Paul says,

But our brothers could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh as infants in Christ, a fed you meant milk, not solid food, for you are not ready. And even now you are not yet ready, for you are still in the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? for when one says, I follow Paul and another I follow Apollos, are you not being merely human? And so even how we move within the church context, even when it comes to leaders like Paul who is solid and trustworthy, Apollos who is solid and trustworthy, that whole, I'm on Apollo, I follow past a this or I follow past a day or jealousy and envy and covetousness.

When that stuff is present within the church community, it also means that there's immaturity present. But what I was reading this text a couple days ago, and what really struck me about it is that the way Paul describes immaturity is as being merely human. And I'm like, that's so interesting to say that. Where it's like, no, like when you came to Christ and you're filled with the Holy Spirit,

you are a human, but you are now a spiritual person because you are filled with a spirit. And immaturity is you leaning into the human side more than you lean into the spiritual side. And I just think that's a really, interesting question to ask ourselves. I was even asking myself because I was just seeing stuff in my heart where I was just like, oh, I'm being just human. Yeah. I'm just being human. And we use that as a validation of our weaknesses, but Paul is using it as a warning to say like,

no, God has called you higher. He hasn't called you to be less than human, but he has called you to be more. Yeah. And you can only do that by power. That's really good. That's really good. Well, as we were preparing for this podcast, I just started to just think about spiritual maturity, maturity, all the ways I've matured and all the ways that I need to mature. And I think for me, the thing that I've struggled with the most is my anger. I think anger is a huge stumbling block from preventing people from being spiritually mature. Right?

because we talked about like not taking correction, not submitting to local authority and all of the things. But I think a lot of times, like not having control over our emotions, but also like feeling like we're validated in how we respond. You know what I said? And so like, man, like the last couple of months, I've just been asking the Lord because I've grown in that area. Significantly.

Significantly, right? I mean, I'm not chasing people. around the store no more. Nope. But I do feel like the devil was always trying to make me go back there. Yeah. Always. Right?

And the thing about my anger that the Lord has always just consistently, like my anger has low heaping a thorn. It has. And the reason why it's a thorn is because the Holy Spirit is always reminding me how unrighteous it is. I am convinced. that my anger is one of the most unrighteous things ever. It's like because I don't have a right to be angry.

I don't have a right to respond. We have a right to be angry, but not sin. Not sin, not, right? And so like I don't have a right. And even, no, even sometimes I don't have a right to be angry. Yeah, there's unrighteous anger too. It's unrighteous anger. So sometimes I have a right.

Like when somebody disrespect my wife, I have a right to be angry. When somebody is telling me about myself, I don't have a right to be angry. I need to repent. right and I think I think our emotions are it's a number one thing that that gets in the way of our spiritual maturity and so I think man for the believer to say Lord I see myself and I know you see me help me and so that's just been really my prayer like Lord I'm angry today like some days I wake up and I'm like this is a spirit nothing even happened and I'm angry you know and I'm like Lord help me, you know? And I think that that honesty with the Lord really helps us to grow in

maturity because it's like the Lord, like I love when my daughter Eden, she's 11 now, she comes to me and I love how self-aware she is and how much she takes responsibility. And so there is a graciousness that I have when I help her now. How much the Lord? When we say, Lord, I'm a mess. Lord, I'm angry for no reason. Like, help me. And I feel like the Lord will help if we're honest with him and honest with ourselves. And talking about thorns, we don't know what Paul's thorn was, which I think is a wise choice by the spirit to lead him in that way,

because it means that we're able to see our thorns in that text. I say that because Tim Keller in his sermon, he talks about how you know the Lord is growing you up when you don't feel him as much, when you don't hear him as much, and now you are given the choice to have to trust that he's still there. And he used this metaphor where he talks about, you know, when I got a baby or a toddler or a toddler,

If we're walking across the street, I'm holding the baby's hand. I'm holding the toddler's hand because they need my guidance. They need my nearness. Even my nearness is an assurance that everything will be okay. They were like, but as that baby grows up into a teenager, into an adult, they no longer need me to hold their hand. They know how to walk across the street. Right.

And I think that is a really, really hard season or many seasons of the Christian life. When you feel this shift where it's like you pray for that to lift. And five years ago, it felt like the Lord would just make it easy. And it's like, now I got to like fast. And now I got to like cry. And now I remember telling God, I was like, so you just want me on my face all the time. And he's like, yeah, that's what grownups do. That's grown up Christianity.

Is that grown up Christianity is now you are coming to terms with the degree of your dependence and your obeying. You understand what I'm saying? And so I think even what you're talking about, you're wrestling with anger. You know what I'm saying? Like, I think I want to help people know that it doesn't mean that you don't know God because you're still wrestling. What's good. It doesn't mean, it just means that God is training you to trust him.

You know, like he's training you. And I say training on purpose because that's what a trial is. It's training you. I often think about Abraham a lot and how God did not give Abraham the test of sacrificing Isaac first. You know what I'm saying? He gave them the test of, all right, you're going to leave her and you're going to go to a place. I'm going to tell you to go. So the first test was him sacrificing something he loved to follow God.

Then he had other tests. Then he had other tests. And eventually God gave him the test of Isaac. That wasn't a new test. It was just different. but it had a degree of intensity that God had already prepared him for. That's what maturity is. Is that God has already been prepared.

He is always preparing you to win. It's just us who struggle. So I don't know. Yeah, that's cool. I don't know that makes sense. It made a lot of sense. I think what it reminded me of is kind of, you know, the transition that I had when we came to Atlanta. I had been like, because I think oftentimes, especially for the Christian who,

who says, I'm in a local community, I'm in this, I'm there, I'm there, I'm growing in faith. And now, like, I'm in this weird season because for a long time I had our pastor Brian Dye, who had walk with me and disciples me and taught me. And I always had him to kind of lean on. But when we went to Atlanta, I didn't have that person. And I remember you telling me, it's like, man, maybe the Lord is trying to get some deeper intimacy out of you. And so when I will call Brian, and Brian would say, well, you're actually. getting out of this discipleship kind of relationship with me and you're actually becoming more of a

friend. But I didn't know how to even adjust to that because I'm like, I still need you to tell me what to do. And it's like, no. God's taking the train of wheels off. Yeah, he's taking the training wheels off. He's basically saying, no, like you're actually, you don't even realize. I think a lot of times, even when we are maturing, we don't even realize how much we've matured. Because it's like, we don't actually see our growth. As we're getting taller over the years, we don't see our growth. We just look up and be like, we're grown. You know what I'm saying? And I think for me,

it was weird when God started to take the training wheels off because it's like, Lord, okay, you usually give me a sign through people or, and it's like, no, like, I actually just want you to fast now. I actually just want you to pray now. I gave you a house with a basement for a reason, not to watch sports all day for you to seek my face. Everything is not going to be, you know,

a community of older believers that's, giving you, you know, the game all the time. And so I think for me, the Lord has really challenged me to grow in my faith to say, man, at the end of the day, it's still about me and you, Preston. You know how the Lord is, that cut you all? No, I was done. How the Lord has taken the training wheels off for me is, you know, like I, the Lord does speak to me prophetically a lot,

whether, primarily through dreams, or if I'm praying, he'll, you know, lay something on my heart and my mind, things like that. And the last year or two years, that has lessened. And for a long time, I thought, like, am I in sin? Like, it's something wrong? And I realized that the Lord wanted me to simply depend on what he already said. And it's not to say that the candidate ain't closed and that dreams our new revelation. That's not what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is that the Lord was stripping away kind of, of these mystical forms of communication to deepen my trust in his promises. And it's been crazy to experience me saying, all right, Lord, I don't know what to do here. And I'll just open up to it. When I say, I will open up to a random passage. And by random, it might be Obadiah. You know what I'm saying? And it would be like the Lord would highlight a verse. That's an answer to the question I just asked. but it's all been the word. And I think that's why, is that, who is that, that went to the cave? Elijah, where he's like, the Lord ain't in the wind, the Lord ain't in the thunder,

the Lord ain't in the, he and the still small voice. And I think maturity. That's when he fled because Bathsheba was trying to kill him, right? Bathsheba is crazy. Not that Shiba. Crazy. What was her name? Jezebel.

Jezebel was trying to kill him. I'm sorry. I said Bathsheba. That's crazy. I'd be getting them confused. I don't know why. You should not? like they was both bogus women.

That she was not bogus. No, she wasn't. She was minor business on the roof. You understand what? Can you talking about coming here? What's she going to say no or die? That's the story you're talking about when Jezebel, like. Because the prophets of Bill, he came for them,

da-da-da-da, exposed them as false prophets. And then Jezebel was like, okay, I'm going to kill you. He runs. Oh, yeah. That's when he flexed on him. And he did that whole little demonstration. This is the real guy. I love this Bible study.

So he, he, He's outside cave and the Lord basically is like he's not communicating to him through all of these dramatic means. And mind you, he just did. He just put fire down on the thing to show himself strong. But now with the prophet, he's like he's communicating in a still small voice. And I think some of us might be in seasons where we feel like God is not with us because he's not as loud as he used to be.

Or he's not as quick to respond to our request. And that's why we have to learn how to wait on the Lord. That's why we got to learn how to get in that book. That's why we got to build our biblical literacy because he has spoken. He is communicating. He is talking, but he's doing it through this in ways to deepen your faith and your dependence in him. And it's basically like, he's like, I'm not walking you across the street no more.

You know how to get over there. Yeah, I love that you use that example because I think it kind of deepened, like, it kind of goes deeper than what we're talking about earlier. earlier because for the person who looks for like their spiritual maturity, looking a certain way based on like how much they're being used on how much they're hearing. And for you to say, I'm not hearing like I used to, but God is still growing me in spiritual maturity because he's actually not allowing me to hear. Yeah, he is speaking.

He is speaking. Yeah, he's just not speaking in the way. Because it's convenient to just go to sleep, have a dream, and that gives me. you clarity. I didn't have to work for that. I just took a nap. You understand what I'm saying? It's another thing for the Lord to force you on your face, like Nehemiah, who pray for months and months and months and months before the thing is released and before the thing is held. Like that, that produces patience, that produces hope, that produces character, endurance. And those are the things that God is trying to work into us. And so that's what I think,

for those who might have a prophetic bent or for those of us who really need these kind of really big flashing lights, if the Lord has kind of withdrew in that way, it's not that he's not near, is that he's making you grow up. That's what I'm saying. He's deepening your prayer life

and he's also helping you to rescript you more. That's good. That's good. I got something else to say. You always got something to say, babe. I'll just say this. I was reading this book, by Elizabeth Elliott

and she was talking about towards the end about trials and circumstances. That's what we need to say. Talking about trials and circumstances and how God's aim is that we would all become spiritual mothers and fathers. And I haven't thought about that a lot because, yeah, I feel like I'm still young

but I do feel like there is a transition where it's like, no, the Lord is like he's growing you up so you can pour more. You know what I'm saying? And John 15 is really helpful. I am the true vine. My father is the vine dresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away. And every branch that does bear fruit, he prunes that it may bear more fruit.

That text is necessary because ultimately the spirit of God is the means by, which we are maturing. So our spiritual disciplines help us. Obviously, they're necessary. But trials, they're helpful responding to that. But is God using the spiritual means or using the spiritual disciplines, God using the trials and the circumstances to do the work of pruning so that we would bear more fruit? And I say to because it, I just want to help us relax and know that if I'm in Christ, I will mature. Yeah. If I'm in Christ, I will change. If I am in Christ, will be conformed into the I was predestined for this conformity so it will happen that's good you know what I'm that's Ephesus that's Bible or is there Romans it's probably both both both both Ephesians and

Romans talk about being conformity and so it's like I just want us to relax our shoulders a bit and know that the Lord is our shepherd you shall not want he is leading us besides still waters all we got to do is follow and the places where we don't follow are the places where we got a girl yeah and because God is all knowing, he's sovereign. And I think what you're essentially saying is you don't have to rush maturity. You have to just be in the right place. Yeah, just rest. Just rest.

Just rest in God, dwell within community. And the Holy Spirit will orchestrate conversations, relationships, situations, trials, tests. I love how what Tim Keller said, you know, something is either a trial or test depending on how you respond to it. And I think a lot of times when the enemy throws something at us, it can be a trial if we just move. He says a trial or a temptation. A trial or temptation. Yeah. You know, and I think that God is using every single circumstances to conform us into the image for Jesus, but also to grow us in spiritual maturity, to grow us in faith.

And so just have faith that everything is working out for the good of those who love God and called according to his purpose, literally everything. So that's all we got. We'll have Tim Keller's sermon in the show notes. I really believe everybody should listen to it. I think it is just a really helpful framework for how to define where you might be on the Christian maturity scale. It'll even give you language for how to pray

for those around you who might be immature. It gives you a bit of grace and empathy for where they are. And ultimately, we are all just trying to journey on towards home. That's it. Yeah. Bye. Peace.

With the Perrys is produced by The Perrys, with support from Amanda Reed and Channing McBride, video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley, edited by the team at Tread Libly. Artwork by Hobb. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.