With The Perrys - Conflict, Confrontation, and Arguing Well

Episode Date: July 17, 2023

Jackie and Preston revisit a conversation had during the very first season of the podcast five years ago – how to argue well. Confrontation is a necessary function of a healthy relationship and it can create more intimacy. But how do we honor God and one another as we move through conflict? The Perrys have some thoughts from what they’ve learned over the years. Shop BOLD Apparel at BOLDApparel.Shop.   Take our brief listener survey.  Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey Saints and Names, how art thou? What's good with y'all? What's good with y'all? How are you shiny beard? I'm doing good. That's good. How are you shiny locks? They're a bit mad.

Yeah. But anyway, what was your favorite thing this week? Like, did something happen to you this week that you were like, huh, I really enjoyed that. Huh. Nothing. Oh. Anything else.

I mean, that's it. That's what you were. Oh, I can think of. Wow. You didn't, nothing, like, no time with God, no fun with your children. But that's, that's consistent. I love my time with the Lord. Okay.

No, no, no, no, no. Autumn came to me. Okay, there we go. I thought about it. Yeah. No, we can talk. Go ahead. Autumn came to me.

She was just like really open about her emotions and her feelings. You didn't tell me this. Yeah. Go ahead. She came to me. and she was just like, I love you, Daddy. And I was like, I love you too, Autumn. Why you say that?

I don't know. I just love you. And I'm like, what was this? This is the other day. I was sitting on the couch watching old basketball games, and she just came. And then she was just really talkative. And you know one thing I'm learning about Autumn?

And the reason why this is a big deal, because Autumn is a very sweet kid, but she's just not as expressive. No, yeah. As our other children. And one thing I'm learning about Autumn is, she just loves to come and talk to me when she doesn't have to compete with her siblings. Oh, that's true.

Like if eating is not around, if she ever sees me by myself, she takes the opportunity to come and talk to me. And so I was like, oh, I noticed that. And so now I'm like, okay, I got to make sure I get her about herself. Ah, that's smart. Yeah. That's thoughtful. You know, because I know she loves me, but she just ain't going to always say it like Sage and Eden. Yeah.

And so the fact that, you know, she came and sat on my lap and just told me how much she loved me. That's sweet. It's a very sweet moment. I don't know if I had a favorite moment this week. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I had my pop-up shop yesterday too. Oh, we're back to you.

Go ahead. Yeah, yeah. It's all about me right now. Yeah. I had my pop-up shop yesterday and that was good. What were you selling? My merchandise. People may not know.

So I have a clothing line called boat apparel, you know, where I, make clothes that I attempt to be fashionable but at the same time start conversations with people in the streets Is there a website? Yes, boat apparel shop.com Shop or shot?

Shop. Okay, there we go. What was your favorite thing this week? Me? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right. I don't think I had one. Nothing, nothing you could think about it. I really can't think of nothing. But part of it is I could have had it, but I'm so sleepy. I don't remember. I'm really tired right now.

And so I don't know. You know what's going. to be my favorite thing, though? Sleep. When we clean our room. That is going to bring me so much joy. Because right now, it's...

It's given chaos. It's given confusion. Yeah. You know, it's given Genesis 1. Like, before he had, like, made everything, like, orderly. Like, and I can't sleep well, and I can't think.

And I just, I don't even want to be in there because of the way... I'm going to clean the room for you. No, you don't have to clean. We can do it together. But our closet, Oh my gosh. Yeah.

We need another one of those. World War II. Yes. Yeah. We need to know. We need another one. The first war. Right.

Everybody died. Okay. What are we talking about? What are we talking about? So we thought that it could be cool if we revisited some of the discussions that we had the first season. Because the first season, we were kind of winging it. You know what I'm saying? We were in our closet.

we were on a Yeti mic. I liked it though. We were sitting on the floor. No, it was cool. It was real good. The closet was a great sound buffer. You know what I'm saying? But we also were, this is almost five years ago.

Yeah. And so we've learned more about many of the subjects that we talked about. And so we wanted to revisit the conversation that many people said they were blessed by, which is how to argue well. Yeah. Okay. And I don't all the way remember the conversation that we had back. back in the day.

I remember talking about our personalities and our upbringing or our family of origin and how that plays a part in your communication style. So let's begin that way. What would you say if you were to think about how you were raised, you know, how you saw confrontation handled in your home or even in your, like, neighborhood? Like, how has that influenced the way you engage in confrontation, especially with me? I mean In my home

It was always Quick-tempered You know short fuse And we didn't cut each other off Because we loved one another Our family was Like we all we got always But we weren't the most patient

Okay But one another at times But outside people The way I saw You know The outside people and my family deal with people outside. It's like you got one chance to disrespect me.

And it's over. Either we're going to fight or I'm just not going to deal with you no more. Like you're not going to get no more energy for me. Got it. And so I think that's the way I kind of grew up seeing people, you know, operate and function. When you had issues or confrontations with people before Christ, how did you handle confrontation? Oh man, before Christ? Yes.

No, give you buck. We was fighting. We was throwing hands. So you didn't want to reconcile ever. No reconciliation. No. I had home boys that I was cool with that I loved. And, you know, and I felt connected to in some ways.

And, you know, when we get into it, you know, there were like reconciliation moments, but it looked way different in Christ. You know what I'm saying? It was like, why are you acting like a, why are you acting like a? Because you said this, he's like, all right, my bad. It's like, you know what I'm, those type of recidilations. You know what I'm saying? Okay.

But not like real reconciliation moments. Like I didn't even understand that concept. It was kind of like you grew up with who you grew up with and some relationships was worth fighting for more than others. So what makes this very interesting to me then is if your family of origin and even, you know, your friendship context, If confrontation was always handled impatiently or violently, then how has, like, in what ways does that still show up in our relationship?

Because you're not a violent man towards me, right? But that doesn't mean that there isn't some type of underlying anger that might want to pop out when issues come up. Yeah, the flesh is always. And that's a really good question. And I want you to kind of answer that from your perspective as well. But I think for me, patience has always been the thing that I feel like the Lord has tried to groom me in even now. You know, and I feel like patience for me is a lifelong sanctifying thing that the process that the Lord has taken me through.

What is difficult about patience for you? It's hard to be a leader one. and to have a vision of what you feel like you and your family should do and not feel like everybody is always cooperating or every, not even corroborating, but seeing the vision, right? It's like, it's like, man, like it's a lot of dying to self. Because a lot of times the intentions and the heart is pure and what I want to see accomplish.

But that's sometimes like the frustration and the irritation can grow when I don't want to give people the same amount of patience that I feel like the Lord gives me. Do you feel like when you were growing up people weren't patient with you? This is a therapy session. I'm so intrigued.

Yeah, yeah, like, of course. Like, I didn't, I realized when I became a Christian and this is no shade to my family, but I realized that I really didn't even know what patience was. You know, I knew it. what tolerance was.

I knew that I was tolerated to a certain extent. And I felt that it was crazy. I think that when you are not, when you don't have like patients displayed to you on the everyday basis, and sometimes tolerance seems like the best form of love.

And so for me, people being tolerant of me was like, man, you love me. But I didn't even know it was a deeper level of love. And that was like Christ's like patience. And so it wasn't until I became a Christian where I saw the difference. You know. And I saw like, no, Christ, he just doesn't tolerate me.

He's patient with me. And so even in my marriage, I had to learn that. You know, early on I had to learn that like, no, I don't want to tolerate my wife. I don't want to tolerate my children. I don't even want to tolerate the people in my local community. I want to love them well. And I want to be patient with them. And so when we have disagreements or arguments, it's kind of like, how can I doubt of myself in a way that would display Christ-like love and patience?

I ask those questions because I think it's wise for us to understand that the way we were reared, and I think we know this as Christians by now, but the way we were reared and the things we observed in our homes, we often rehearse. Yeah. And not even on purpose. What was some things you rehearsed and that you saw modeled? Yeah. So confrontation in my house was not a thing. Yeah. And so if, if, my mom would know this because I asked her like, why you don't confront stuff?

But like, if she had an issue with anything, she wouldn't say it. But you would feel it. Yeah. You would see it. Like you would know that she's kind of shut down emotionally, that she's not, like, she's not participating with me in the same way that she was before. And so I think, or if she had issues with friends, the friends would just disappear. Like you just wouldn't see them around.

And so I think how I learned to confront issues is not to confront issues. And so when me and you get together, that creates a storm because you're somebody that is impatient and therefore you want to confront an issue immediately. Yeah. And I'm someone who doesn't even have the tools or the resources or the desire to confront issue and so that just kind of creates a clash. Because we grew up in two different homes. I mean, we grew up in a home where if you had an issue, you come to somebody's room.

Like, I got an issue with you. Immediately. You know what I'm saying? And so, like, even the way we function in, yeah, I think you're right. Even the way we function in marriage and marriage is a reflection of how we were raised in our upbringing. For sure. You know, for me, it was just really tough trying to deal with conflict with you. you in the beginning because I felt like the way you process or the way you learned how to

process your emotions or whatever was hindering our growth. Interesting. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Because I felt like, man, like, if we have conflict there, like, how, how is it going to be resolved if you don't want to touch it? Right.

Right. And vice versa. Yeah. But at the same time, like, I also had to learn from you, right? I had learned that everything is not worth. speaking at that moment. Yes. And so it's a balance.

Because sometimes in wanting to address a conflict, if you want to address a conflict prematurely, it creates more conflict. Yes. And so there's a sense in which patience says that it would be wiser for us both to process and think through what we feel so that even when we come together, we're not speaking purely out of emotion and purely out of irritation or purely out of anger. But we've kind of sifted it with Jesus in the word or with. people so that when we come together it's actually more healthy and more fruitful.

Because I've had to tell you, I cannot talk about this right now because it will not be good. Yeah. I know myself. So if you try to push me out of that before I fully, not even fully, at least partially, worked it through in my brain, you're not going to get a good Jackie. Yeah, for sure. For sure. And I think for me, speaking of Jesus, I think.

Yeah, we like him. Yeah. Love him. I think. Serve him. Honor him. glorify him. Okay.

I'm going to wait until you getting known all the. Right. He is Lord. Right. Adored him. Right. Adore him. Okay.

Because he is the image of the invisible God. All right. The firstborn. So thinking. Among all creation. Right, right. That's what the word say. That's the Lord of.

Now, be quiet, please. Speaking of Jesus, this isn't necessarily related to like marriage conflict, but when when Jesus was dealing with the Pharisees and religious leaders of his time, you always saw him saying to his disciples, it's not time for this. It's not the time for the son of man to be captured. And you saw a lot of times,

one time the Pharisees tried to snatch him up and it said Jesus, like, fled away. I don't even know what that all looked like. I don't know if he disappeared. I don't know if he like shimmied away. You know what I'm saying? But he like avoided conflict because he knew what ultimately had to happen, right?

But he knew like at this moment, this is not time for the conflict, right? It has to be done in my divine wisdom. That's good. And I think a lot of times in conflict and marriage, you have the one who kind of is like me who feels like, no, we have to settle this right now. And it's like, okay, you're not afraid of confronting things head on.

But are you using God's wisdom, his divine wisdom, and when you do it? Yeah. Because you could do something prematurely and you won't even get to the destination that you wanted to get to because you did it prematurely. And I think timing also reveals why you want to talk. Yeah.

Right? So what I mean is you often wanted to have a conversation or do want to have a conversation quick to like resolve the tension in your own heart. Yeah, to get something off my chest. It's actually not about unity. Yeah. It's not actually about peace

is that you feel disoriented and you don't want the chaos. You know what I'm saying? Wait, let me take it a step further. But at times, I was convinced that it was about unity and I was convinced that it was about peace because I was always

taking my peace for our peace. What do you mean? Like what I felt like was peace, I felt like if I'm peaceful, we're peaceful. Yeah. If I feel like I'm good, we're good.

That's actually arrogant. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I was arrogant. No, I'm not, that's not, I'm just saying. Yeah, no, no, no, you're right. Because we're two different people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, like, I felt like, okay, if I feel this way, you know,

like maybe if, if I can get it off my chest and she can see where I'm coming from, we can be good. Yeah. And what I needed to do is, like, kind of forget about me in some ways and come to you and say, you know what, how are you? Yeah. Or when do you want to talk or how do you want to process? But yeah.

But in the same way, I think me shutting down, because I even had to learn that even shutting down can be a form of vengeance. Yeah. And people don't think of it that way. They think vengeance is like, I'm gonna fight you, or I'm gonna put some sugar in your tank,

or I'm gonna be verbally mean. Yeah. But withholding yourself from somebody that your call to love is also a, I'm not going to curse you out, but I'm not going to talk to you at all. You know what I'm saying? So I'm withholding myself. That's a form of punishment.

Yeah, that's good. And so I think I had to realize that one, that's not like Jesus, but two, that even though I need you to give me space to process, I also need to be willing to step out outside of myself to serve you and reconcile with you too. You know what I'm saying? So it takes a level of humility to say, like, Jackie, talk. talk it out. But I think you also being a secure person because people who are afraid of conflict, what they're afraid of is also abandonment and rejection.

And so I'm less likely to want to work through conflict if I don't believe that after we do it, you'll stay. Yeah. That you'll still love me. That you'll still care for me. That you'll still be there. And so I think the more secure you've become, the more willing I am to engage in very hard conversations.

Yeah, because I think that's the, I think that's the balance and that's the wrestle. I feel like a lot of times the husband has. And sometimes the shoe might be on the other foot. The wife might be more a little more confrontational than the husband. But I feel like, you know, as husbands, it's our job to lead. But I feel like when I started to learn that it wasn't necessarily about us working through things that I felt like we had to work through at that moment. and at that time, but making our home and environment

that when you feel safe and allows you to come out on your own, I felt like our communication and our conflict and how we resolved our conflict became better. Oh, huge. Because I think that's just the balance of, one, the leader of the home. It's like, man, how can I create a space to allow this person to grow so they can want to work through conflict with me in a way that feels safe?

and secure. And I didn't get that at first. I felt like, you know, if we got a problem, let's just talk about it. Practically speaking, right? So I don't think all confrontation or conflict in marriage is rooted in some kind of sin or infraction. Like some confrontation might simply be,

hey, you know, can you pick your socks up? I don't know. Like, I'm confronting you about something. some of the things you do in our home that is bothering me, it may not necessarily be sinful, but it's still irritating me. You get what I'm saying? Yeah. But I think there are also a lot of things that are a lot of confrontation in marriage that does have some type of thing that, like, makes you mad and makes you angry. So practically speaking, if you are mad at me or if you're mad at a friend or if you're mad at somebody at church, how do you work through your anger so that

when you do have the conversation, when you do do the confrontation, you do it in a way that honors God, like practically speaking, what is that process? Yeah, I think it's, I think it's all a matter of examining your own heart. I'm a big believer that nobody makes you do anything. They just bring what's in you all out, right? And so if I'm an impatient person, the right person will bring that impatience out. If I, if I'm an angry person, I don't care how God are you trying to like look in church or Wednesday night Bible study? Like, if you run into the wrong person, it's like, okay, they're going to expose what's in you. And I even learned that in street evangelism.

It's like if I don't get before the Lord and give things to him, it's about giving things to him. It's like, Lord, I'm an angry person. You die for this anger. Can you please take it before I deal with this individual? Right? And so there's nothing, it's nothing for them to bring up out of me except patience, more kindness, more love, more gentleness, right?

And so I think that's the main thing. I feel like when me and you have conflict and I feel myself getting irritated, it's like, did you pray this morning? Did you give that to the Lord? Right? Have you meditated on the goodness of God? And so for me, I think the way you deal with conflict is,

like you have to give those things to the Lord that makes conflict difficult before you deal with another image bear. Because if you don't, it's going to be chaos. But I would add to that, because I asked that question because the Lord says, do not let the sun go down on your anger. I don't think he's necessarily referring to a specific time. Like, don't, it's 5.30.

You better make sure you're not. But it's more so like, do not allow yourself to be angry for prolonged periods of time. Yeah. But with that said, I think if we give our anger to the Lord and if we process, that doesn't mean that you withhold your emotion in the confrontation.

What I mean is some people could think, okay, I have to be happy or joyful. No. Or without any remnants of anger to engage in the confrontation. But I actually don't think that's true because I think people need to see that they hurt you. Yeah, yeah.

Not manipulation, but your humanity. Like, it does something to me when we would have issues and you were like, you disrespected me, for me to see, not you to like sin against me, but for me to see that I hurt you affected me. You get what I'm saying?

Because we recorded a podcast recently when we talked about how you offended me and Trinidad and I brought up, you know, I brought up how I compared you with your father, right? Right. And in that conflict, what I needed to do was I needed to communicate to you how your actions are affected me

without sending against you. Yes. Because it's one way, it's one thing to... Be angry but sin not. Be angry but sin not. Right. Because it's one way to... express how you feel.

And it's another way to express how you feel while at the same time trying to sin against somebody else to soften how you feel. It's like you're not giving those emotions to the Lord. You're taking those emotions in your own hands and you're trying to sin against somebody to like get your little anger out. And it's just like, no, you should have got that anger out. You should have got that vengeance. You should have given that to the Lord.

And when with this person was just, you know, just saying I'm hurt. I feel some type of way and I want to love you through it King King can we talk about it Yeah And so I think you know That's the difference That's helpful

Yeah yeah Now What would you say How do I say this I'm a woman Right Very beautiful woman You're a man

Right Very swaggy man Okay The Bible Ephesians 5 says husbands love your wives like Christ loved the church

That's what the word say Paul says wives submit to your husbands like the church submits to Christ later on in the thing he says wives have respect for your husband speak to the dynamic of confronting like arguing well in marriage as a

husband because there's a particular call or role that you play within our marriage that I think should influence or informed the way that you do conflict with me. Does it make sense? It does. It does. For example.

For example, I've seen, observed in a part of friend groups where the husband, because he takes on his role as a leader, he takes it so seriously that he's actually extremely self-righteous, critical, overbearing, and like literally spiritually abusive, right? And so that's one way that he's handling conflict is to be mean. and to be unhealthy and to be narcissistic and to be damaging. Like, that's not what we're supposed to do, right? But you also have women who they, the way they handle conflict, they're manipulative because they don't want to actually say something.

So they just want to kind of like, like, I don't want to say, hey, you hurt me. And so they want to be super hyper, passive, aggressive as if that's going to work. Or they nag and become like super critical. I'm going to give him his food cold every night. It ain't going to be all the way hot. Yeah. They're going to have to warm it up himself.

Yeah. And so on both ends, you have a wife. What are my food? You have a, wow, no. That's not it. I'm just saying, no. Don't be going to bring me cold. So you have wives that aren't respecting their husbands.

Yeah. And you have husbands that aren't loving their wives. How do you do that well? For me, it's a big question. It is a big question. I'm going to speak from the males perspective because I'm a man. I'm a man, right? And I think when it comes to conflict and when it comes to,

tension in a marriage. As a leader, when we look at Ephesians 5, I cannot escape the fact that when it says husbands love your wives, like Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her. Christ did that before the church loved him back.

And Christ did that after the church rejected him over and over again. And so there is something to be said about a husband being sacrificial in that way of consistently dying to his self, even when there is rejection there. Even when there is a lack of submissiveness there.

Even when there is just selfishness there on some, you know. And I believe that a woman's call is to respond to their love and to be convicted by the love. And to like, because that's what convicts us. Like the church is a hot mess, but we have those old. who are in the church who have corrected their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, lack of submissiveness to Christ because we realize one day, man, Jesus loves me despite all I've done. This I know. Right.

For the Bible. And so I think, I think, and this is the reason why I tell women, I think I said this before on the podcast, that, like, women who, who, who don't want to submit. It's like, man, like, Christ's like love and leadership is just as vulnerable. as submission. And so we don't look at it that way. You're the leader. You tell me what to do.

I got to submit to it. It's like, no. It's like I actually have to die first. Yeah. Which tells me that sometimes, because I can understand, I'm not a man, but I am a leader, right?

And I think in my leadership with the different teams that I work with, what I realize is what is easy is domineering. Yeah. That's how I take on conflict. As I say,

don't do that, do this. Why? because I said so. I think humble leadership, the way you examine conflict, as you say, okay, what role have I played

in this conflict existing? Yeah. Because I've had times where I see that, you know, somebody I'm leading is doing X, Y, and Z, but I have to examine and say, how have I let them well or not?

And that's why they're doing X, Y, Y, like, I'm looking at my own heart first, and so that allows me to actually engage with them, not from a place of preeminence or power, but really from a place of just humility and love and saying, you know, I'm sorry that I did not communicate this clearly. I'm sorry that I gave you this example. Yeah.

I'm sorry that I did not pray for you or ask you how you were doing. You know what I'm saying? Also, you know, one thing I learned in leadership with us and just, you know, people that I lead in life is, am I displaying what I want to see? Hello! Am I displaying what I want to see? like I can't make somebody selfishness make me be prideful.

Like if I want humility and I'm making your lack of humility make me a domineering person, it's like how are they ever going to understand humility if the person who's leading them will model it. You know, and so that's what I had to learn because I think a lot of times in conflict, we want to be the one with the upper hand. We want to be the one who's in control.

And so when someone, you know, is not showing humility towards us or rebelling against us or not submitting to us, it says, you know what, I don't have control. Let me try to be more domineering to get it. And that's just not how you get it. You get it by displaying what you want to see. And so, like, if you want humility, display humility. If you want more love, display more love.

That's good. And that's what Jesus did. I think for the woman who engages in or the wife that engages in conflict in a way that is disrespectful, I think we have to ask ourselves really hard questions about what is it about my husband that I don't respect, that I don't value, right? Let me ask you a question, though. Is it always about the husband? I'm getting there. Okay. So, so, because it could be that he, has moved in a certain way that you haven't acknowledged and that you haven't confronted. And so, for example, it could be that the husband, you know, you feel like he's lazy.

And because he's lazy, you haven't confronted the laziness. And so it's coming out all the time and like you being mad about the dishes or you being mad about him coming home late or you been, but you're really not mad at that. You're mad at his lack of diligence. Yeah, yeah. And so I think sometimes you have to ask yourself really hard questions about what is it that I don't appreciate, I don't respect. Let me deal with that.

Let me take that before the Lord. Let me, let me ask God to be a bomb, to be a healer. And then let me have an honest conversation with my husband and say, hey, these behaviors are affecting my respect. And I want to respect you. I want to value you. But that is making it hard for me, right? And then y'all could talk and figure it out.

I think other times it's not nothing the man did. It's just your own heart. Yeah. You know, your own heart, like, power feels good. Disrespect is natural. Love is supernatural. And so it takes love and a softened, humble heart to be able to communicate a truth in a way that lands

and is received well, you know? And so, like, I think at the end of day, we have to understand that God's command to love our neighbors as better than ourselves also applies to our spouses. Yeah. Period. Including our communication. Facts, really.

Answer this question because I've known a lot of men and I know a lot of men who avoid conflict with their spouses because they just they just don't want to deal with the sharp words. From their wife. Yeah. And women have this ability to just always throw little daggers out there, just disrespectful things. Little jabs. Little jabs that's going to set a man off in a way. And so explain to us what is the process of a woman who sometimes is hard for them to deal with their significant other without just being really loose at the mouth. And being mean.

And being mean. That's mean. Yeah. One, I think some of us were raised under women that were like that. Mm. We saw our mothers be disrespectful. Discipleship. We saw our mothers be undermining to men.

And that when we saw our mothers live that way, it usually came because they suffered at the hands of men. They were abused emotionally, verbally, spiritually, physically. And so, of course, they don't have any respect. You know what I'm saying? And so sometimes the language is a, sometimes the language is a signpost that you're not going to disrespect me. I'm not a weak woman. It's a very insecure way to signal power. But I think that's one factor

I think another factor is we just got to be it takes humility I keep saying humility it takes humility to say you know what when you did X, Y and Z it hurt my feelings

you know what I'm saying that hurts to say so instead of just saying that I'm just be mean to you like and I just I don't I need women to know that doesn't work like tearing down a man's masculinity

will never make your marriage better. Yeah. Ever. I can be very sharp with my words. Really? I did not know that.

I thought she was dull. I thought your words was dull. I could be sharp. I can be quick, right? Just because I am a communicator. And so I think women who are communicators actually have to be even more mindful of how they use their words.

Blame it on the communication. It's a part. How convenient. Anyway. But I think what has helped me is you constantly communicating, not how the way I navigate conversations with you just makes you angry, but how it hurts you. Because for a good season of our relationship,

probably when we were dating, we had a lot of clashes where you would be like, Jackie, that's disrespectful. You cannot say that to me. You cannot do me like that. And some of it was ignorance. I didn't know it was disrespectful. Why?

Because I've been raised around it. That's all I saw. You know what I'm saying? It was like women talking to men, however they felt like talking to them. And so it was you being patient with me, but also being vulnerable with me and saying, when you say this in front of this person, in this way, this is how it makes me feel. So you had to actually teach me how to respect you. But you didn't do it in a way that also was disrespectful.

Yeah. You did it in a way that was just like, hey, this isn't going to fly in our relationship. And so that was just really helpful for me. Yeah, yeah. And that's, I had to grow in that because I wasn't like that, like you said. No, you got kind of spicy. Yeah, not spicy. I get angry.

You know what I'm saying? And like, yeah, just be real. But one thing that I had to grow in is vulnerability. Because I think it's, I think it's tough for a man to want respect. right and he's not getting it but at the same time he doesn't know how to be vulnerable enough to communicate how he really feels to the person that loves him yeah right and it's just like you know what vulnerability for the man does is it helps people in your life love you better instead of you saying man I ain't messing with you no more I'm saying and then just walking away and not dealing

with it and you're the whole time your relationship is decaying yeah because she doesn't realize the weight of how much she's affecting you you. It doesn't even understand. She probably thinks he's just mere pride and not, you know, you're like wounding him. But because he doesn't want to be vulnerable and communicate to you how much you're wounding him. You know, she's just like, oh, he's just a prideful person. You know what I mean? Because I don't, I think we have this assessment and it's the culture and it's men, it's everybody. We have this assessment of men that they are stronger than what they really are. Yeah. And that's not to say you aren't strong, but it also.

isn't to say that you aren't tender, right? It's like you are affected by words, especially the words of the person that you love. Like, I think I had to realize that my words land very hard on you in positive ways and in negative ways. And so I don't want to steward my language in a way that damages you more than it builds you up, which is what scripture says.

Like your words have the power of love. life and death is in the power of the tongue. That's not a supernatural power. It just means it has the power to shift and influence and change even people's like sense of self and identity. I also want to say that I think the woman, the wife, should not, shouldn't underestimate all those little jabs is making your, can be making your husband lose respect for you.

Interesting. In a way that you probably don't even realize. What does that look like a man losing respect for his wife? Because when a person doesn't feel safe and a person feels like you're not honoring them in the way that you should honor them, they can start to see you as like a, as an enemy, even though they love you, right?

And they can start to see you as somebody who's going to like, you know, and I get it. You're saying that sometimes women do that to make themselves feel safe. But it's like you don't understand like you tearing me down is making me like retreat and not have good thoughts about my interaction with you, not have good thoughts about the way I don't see you as a safe space, but I see you as somebody who's going to tear me down to protect themselves every single time.

Wow. You know, and I think, you know, I've seen so many men lose respect for their wives in that way. And granted, I mean, I'm not talking about all I got to be clear. I'm not talking about the trash husbands who are out there, you know, abusing their wives. I'm talking about, you know, good men who probably, you know, marry a woman who had some bad experiences to a man in the past. And, you know, they don't even realize, like, how, how affected their husbands are with their sharp tongues. It's like you've, you've wounded me so many times. I don't even know how to, I don't even know how to receive you anymore.

I don't even know how to be myself. You know, like for me, it's better off for me to be angry and to be guarded and to be like this cold person than to open myself up to you because I don't know when the next sharp word is going to come. And so, yeah, you can paint yourself to be like a very unsafe space to a man

to a point where he doesn't trust you anymore. And so I think that, yeah, communication is just key because... I remember, I don't know who told me. It might have been Melody, one of my mentors, or I might have been a sermon. But it was kind of this word that in marriage, your spouse is not your enemy. Yeah. And that sounds like, yeah, of course. You know, we went to the altar and we exchanged rings and we have sex.

But we can function that way. Yeah. With the person that we are united with in one flesh, we treat like an enemy. And we have to do the work of, like, fighting against that lie. because the truth is if anybody is for me, it should be and is going to be you. You know what I'm saying? Now with that said, I think a really wise way

to kind of turn the tide in our marriages, even when it comes to healthy confrontation and conflict, is confession, quick confession. Because, again, I still am very imperfect in my speech towards you. That's just clear. but there are plenty of moments

where I'll come back and say I apologize for saying that the way I said it Yeah you've grown a lot Like this is what I meant to say Or I apologize for saying that In front of these people I was just being

I was irritated So you know what I'm saying I did that last week And so I think confessing that stuff Yeah Quickly actually allows there not to be any wedge Put between y'all Like intimacy and unity

You know what I'm saying? Yeah yeah no for sure because I think what quick confession does is it is it immediately tears down the lies that the enemy can tell them. Mm-hmm. You know what I'm saying?

That's good. Because I feel like we had to learn that, right? And we're still learning that. Like, because what the enemy wants to do, the enemy wants to use your wife's words or your husband words to automatically say, they don't really care about you like that. Yeah.

They don't really respect you like that. Are they respect another man more than you? Oh, they, you know. And so like now you have the enemy's lies But what quick confession does It shows us it's like no like that was wrong But they still love me They still honor me

Yeah They just had a moment And they know the Lord And they know the Lord Yeah And we can bounce back from it And so I think I'm always a fan Of quick confession

Because I just don't want to get a devil Nothing to work with Yeah No that's helpful Yeah I want to say also That for people who are built like me who don't like confrontation.

Like, I learned from you that all confrontation like all confrontation isn't bad. Yeah. Like, it's just not all negative. You know, like, it really is a necessary function of a healthy relationship because you'll hear couples who are like,

oh yeah, we never argue. And it's like that actually... Cap, stop the cap. No, they might not be arguing. I said this in the first time we recorded this. Like, if a couple is saying that they don't argue, to me, that is not a signal of an healthy relationship.

That's a signal that both of y'all are passive. Right. Because if you're a human being, there are going to be conflict. Because one of y'all breath sting and everybody smell it. That's a very strange example. Everybody smell it. But because y'all is scared of conflict,

y'all won't tell each other the truth and y'all be having each other out here like that. Sure. You know what I'm saying? Like what I'm saying is, like, if you never argue, if you never bring up your your spouse's issues. It's like, one, that's not even realistic. Right.

And that's not love. My shock and awe was primarily at the metaphor that you chose. The illustration was a bit strange. I thought about a friend that I knew. I had to tell him his breath stink because his wife was scared. But go ahead. I'm sorry. No, go ahead.

No, all I'm saying is, like, I hate when marriages. or spouses act like they have no problems. Yeah. And I'd be seeing it on social media. It's like, why y'all trying to act like y'all perfect? Yeah. It's not even realistic. Because listen, it is one thing to not argue,

and it's another thing to say, no, we've learned how to argue in a constructive way. Right. Right. So me and you, I call them healthy debates or healthy conversation. We haven't. where we don't argue, we don't have these tit for tats, but we have constant conversations about, hey, I didn't like this, I didn't like that.

Or, hey, I foresee this being an issue. Can we talk through this or I've been feeling this kind of way? Can we talk to, like, it's like we, you also have to have precipitous conversations, right? Say it again? Percipitous conversations. I don't say it real fast. No, like. So I think for example.

Who just says precipitous? Let's say I'm having an emotional week, right? Yeah. And I feel very irritated because of something that happened with me and somebody else. I need to let you into that irritation quickly because it's going to come off on you. That's a precipitous conversation where I'm already saying I am feeling this kind of way and I don't want to keep this to myself because I know it's going to end up forcing some type of conflict between me and you on Tuesday. and this Sunday.

And so even having those kinds of conversations. When you come in a room and you see I'm kind of just like a little frustrated, it's like, are you okay? Yeah. You want to talk about it? And giving you the space not to talk about it. But so much of that comes with time. We've known each other now 15 years.

I guarantee you by year 20, even the way we engage in conversation and conflict will be different naturally because we will know each other even more than we did before. Yeah. So like early in our, in our marriage, we argued a lot out of ignorance. I was presuming and assuming this is what you meant

or projecting this is why he said it. When it's like now I know like, oh, no, he just constipated. What? Not constipated. Yeah, and we're still learning. And we're not experts by no means. Absolutely not. But I think the main thing is,

how can I grow with my spouse in a way that would, that would, always encourage us to come together in a healthy way to deal with difficult issues. It's like, how do we do that? And sometimes it's tough. Sometimes it's how can I, in the most gentle, most respectful way, bring up something that's problematic

for the sake of peace, future peace? Even the Lord corrects us. Yeah. And disciplines us so that we can go in righteousness. It's not my job to discipline you, but what I am saying is that the hard things don't necessarily mean

something bad is happening. It means that the hard stuff talking through it, dealing with it, walking through it, working with it, is what usually actually forms more intimacy. Conflict can create more intimacy if you do it well. I just want to read

this scripture. James 4, it says, what causes quarrels and what causes fights among you? Is it not this, that your passions are at war within you? You desire and do not have, so you murder. You covet and cannot obtain, so you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask. You ask and you do not receive because you ask wrongly

to spend it on your passions. You adulterous people, do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? I read that because James is saying, hey, you quarreling and you fighting because of passion, that are warring within you. You desire and you don't have. So what you do?

You murder. You covenant. You can't get it. So what you do? You fight. And you're doing all this because you haven't talked. You haven't asked.

And so you don't have it. And so it's like if in your conversations in your marriage, in your friendships, in your whatever, talk. If you just had a conversation, a lot of issues will be resolved. Yeah.

And it just cuts like because a lot of our frustrations that we have with our spouse is deeply rooted in assumptions. Yeah. Us assuming things that they feel and us going off of our, the lies the enemy has told us in our own head about our spouse. And so we're responding out of this deep, deep assumption because we haven't took the time to properly communicate

to get a clear understanding. And so for me, it's just like, man, like, let me not respond to you by what I think you mean. let me talk to you to get an understanding. So we get, you know what I mean? And so I think communication is key. One more scripture. Colossians 3.

Put on then as God's chosen ones. Holy and beloved. Compassionate hearts. Kindness. When a woman is being disrespectful, when a woman is being mean, she's lacking kindness, humility, meekness.

Meekness is strength under control. We know you a strong woman. We know you a powerful woman. You ain't got to prove. that even Jesus came and condescended and it became flesh and became a servant and so you don't have to flex power to be powerful right verse 13 bearing with one another and if one has a complaint against another forgive each other as the lord has forgiven you so you also must forgive and above all these put on love which binds everything together in perfect harmony scripture has given us so

much context for how to argue well yeah that's good and we what you just said kind of reminded me of something I want to say earlier is that like both man and woman we have this we have this weird way of trying to obtain power because I think the root of it is fear I think the man is deeply deeply afraid of being wounded in his Christ-like sacrificial love I'm going to put myself out there you're going to hurt me the woman is deeply fearful of submitting to someone who will hurt her right and so like sometimes the man can be overly domineering, not simply because he just wants to control somebody to feel good.

No, I want to control you. I want to, like in our conflict, I want to control you because I want to protect myself. The woman, I want to throw sharp jabs at you, you know, when we have, you know, arguments because I want to protect myself, right? And what we're really doing is really just exposing how weak we really are. Which is good news. It's good news.

This is why it's good news. It's you are functioning out of an insecurity. Yeah. The primary insecurity we have is a lack of intimacy with God. Yeah. Right. And so if the Lord is our refuge, if the Lord is our strong tower, then that means if we go to him as our safe place, as our security,

then I don't have to find all these like fake forms of security. Yeah. Because I'm securing him already. Yeah, yeah. And so if I, if I'm securing the Lord, that actually frees me to love you without fear. Yeah. And that's really, really, really hard to do. But that's what God has called us to try.

That's good. That's good. Well, any last advice before we wrap it up that you said it all. Yeah, I'm good. I'm good too. All right. Bye y'all. With the Perry's is produced by the Perrys with support from Amanda Reed and Channing B. McBride.

Editing by Xavier Fairley. video recording and audio production by Kim Powell, artwork by hop, and music by swoop. If you'd like to support The Perry's, you can visit the link in the show notes. This is With the Perrys. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.