With The Perrys - Deep Dive: Raising Kids to Know and Follow Jesus

Episode Date: August 17, 2026

To change things up from a typical re-run, our team has put together “deep dive” episodes on specific topics or themes, pulling key moments from relevant episodes and bringing them together for one comprehensive listening experience. In this Deep Dive, Jackie and Preston revisit conversations they’ve had together (and with some guests, too) about parenting. This episode discusses building simple rhythms of Scripture and prayer in the home, how to help kids develop a faith of their own, and navigating hard conversations without shame. Today’s Deep Dive features content from four past episodes: Family and Parenting with Generations in Mind: A Conversation With The Ortlunds (November 2024) – https://youtu.be/UO8QC-JLj90 Boy Mom Stuff, Preaching, and Other Gems with Priscilla Shirer (September 2024) – https://youtu.be/EVwZfvh3OfI Unforgiveness, Raising Kids in the Last Days, and Proud Preachers: A Q&A Episode (July 2025) – https://youtu.be/g6Ik2mrs6bU Discipling Kids in a Sexually Broken World With Laurie and Matt Krieg (October 2025) – https://youtu.be/Q6cFmUZ0zho This Episode is Sponsored By: https://weekendtoremember.com — Register now with code PERRY to save $100 on any getaway! https://gominno.com/ — Sign up online with code PERRY to get your first month FREE! - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Young and newly married, how to navigate deciding to have kids in the world we live in. So what I hear underneath this response is a hesitancy to bring kids into the world in light of the state of the world. The world is a mess. The world itself, the actual earth is a mess. We got floods and earthquakes. I've had this question a lot. things like that. And then the world as a system is a mess. You got pornography, you got lust, you got sexual sin, immorality, pride, anger, warfare, all the stuff. So the earth and the world,

it's all a lot. And so I think it can be scary to say, why would I want to bring a little innocent, little baby human being into that? I think a lot of times when we think about Matthew 28, the Great Commission, make disciples of all nations, baptized in the name of the Father, Son, the Holy Spirit. God is telling us to produce other Christians like ourselves so that the world can be not, not, you know, better holistically, but so that he can call people in the world, out of the world, into our family. And I think a lot of times when we think about make, we think about just sharing the gospel with other people, and we don't think about making babies, like actually making human means.

and raising them up in the faith so we can shoot them out in the world so that they can't impact this world. And I think we should be motivated when we think about the command that God gave Adam and He be fruitful and multiply so that his glory can be seen in the earth through human beings. We have to look at that through the context of Christianity too and Christians. And so I remember when some friends of ours, I was talking about moving or something like that out of the country. And he was like, no, y'all need to stay here.

We need Christians in America. Yeah. Especially black Christian families. Yeah, yeah. We need Christians in America. We need your children to be raised up in America, you know, as a witness. And so I do think that we have to look at, we can't allow fear and this world to intimidate us because this world has always been sinful.

I mean, and, you know, people argue about how this world is more sinful than past generations. I mean, every generation was sinful. Yeah, to me, the Roman Empire was another level. Y'all going to a building to see people die. Yeah, and y'all was playing soccer with decapitated heads. Now, mind you, I do think social media is a bit of a coliseum in our hands. Yeah, it's more of a social crucifixion.

And dare I say, some of these video games is us being able to kill people without killing people. Yeah. But whatever. Yeah, yeah. And so, yeah, I think that's some of the best advice I can give is like, man, like bringing children into this world is a way in which we fight against the evil in this world. Yeah, I think raising actual disciples in your home is a way to help push back against evil.

obviously there is no guarantee that your children will be Christians. Obviously there's, because a lot of these kids that was raising Christian homes are the strong, they have the strongest form of godliness I have ever seen in my life. So I do think we have to raise Christian kids that know they're not born Christian. They must be given the gift of faith and be given the gift of the Holy Spirit, but that's neither here nor there. I think we have to understand that raising disciples in our homes is a way to push back against the darkness. I will also say what you said is that we don't make decisions out of fear as Christians. And so I think fear is a legitimate feeling, but it isn't a feeling that we obey. And second, I think it's first Peter, we addressed this in one of the

scriptures where Peter tells women in particular, do not fear what is fearful, meaning feel it, but don't obey it. Yes, it's scary. I get it, but obey the Lord. Three, I think you will be amazed how parenting will get the worldliness out of you. That's good. Because the world is scary and that same world is in you. And so there is so much of parenting that is also the Lord discipling you into his image. And so I would also lean into what God might be wanting to do through you and birthing kids through you. Yeah. And also too, I would say that's his will. Because that's also the thing.

Like, is that his will for your life? And also to what I'll say for people who have a fear of bringing children into this world because, you know, this world is sinful and all of these things. It's like you have an opportunity to raise children up in the ways of the Lord and to shoot them out in the world. is a way for God to continue to preserve this evil world. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Right, right, because we are the salt of the world, you know what I'm saying? And so, like, us being, like, you should want to produce more salt. You know what I'm saying?

More preservation for God to be merciful to this world because when he looks at the children of God, there is mercy there. And so. Yay. Girl, would you stop this, yay, after every answer? And a cousin, random cousin of Jerry's, I'm just kind of. meeting everybody for the first time. Random cousin comes over to Jerry and casually says, you know, if you and Priscilla don't have boys,

the Shire name will die with y'all. So I just looked over at Jerry and I remember watching that settle on him. Like he was looking around like, oh my gosh, that's correct. He has girl cousins in his family, but they were married so their name is not Shire anymore. All of the men had girls. Wow. Okay.

So it dawned on him. That man looked at me at the family reunion and with the weight of what I now know was the whole voice of God on him. He looked at me and said, I think God is doing this on purpose. Wow. I think when we have children, we're going to have all boys. Wow. Jerry, all of the men in Jerry's family left their wives, did not raise their children, did not live with any sort of integrity. Wow.

So he said, I think God. is doing this on purpose so he can set a whole new trajectory. Wow. Of what it means to be a man and have the last name Shire. That gave me chill bumps. That gave me chill bumps. Gary Prophet? I mean, seriously, it was one of those moments where you look back on it and go,

that was God for real because here we are. Yeah. The only boys in the family on that side in this generation are three boys named Jackson, Jerry, and Jude Shire, our sons. Wow. So we believe that's because his mother, Jerry's mother. who was a single mother and had to do it all herself. She said, my boy's not going to be like this.

Wow. She was resilient and determined and disciplined and prayed for her sons and asked God to change the whole situation. And now she has grandsons that we are praying. You know, they have to make their choices. But we have prayed for them. We believe God's mantle is on them to do exactly what the Holy Spirit said to Jerry that day 24 years ago now.

Yeah. And we're like, boys, now it's no pressure, but kind of. Yeah. But not to please us or, God's hand is on your life. Wow. Listen to the voice of God. Make good decision. Surround yourself with godly people and walk in a manner worthy of this calling.

That's beautiful. But what I was going to say is my dad came over three days after that happened. Three days after I had that thought. And I was praying with an accident of the Lord to just help me because I was just one piece. And my dad came and sat right here on the floor. And I'm at the island and he's just looking at my kids and he's got tears in his eyes. And then I'm like, what's wrong with you, pop? And he said, it's just so much life in your house.

And I was just like, I think that can, that just convicted me. Right? Because what, I want peace. But my dad for the first time, like in my house, he was like, it's so much life here. Like, I want the noise, you know? And that's just, I think we often deal with the tension of wanting something, you know what I mean, when it leaves or whatever. And so how did you guys deal with the tension of your children leaving?

You know, when early on, we had three kids in three years and it was busy. And a friend, an older friend, said, we did the same thing when we were newlyweds. And we realized, okay, this season in life had a beginning. This season in his life is going to have an end. at any given moment, however crazy it might be, we're just between those two points. And this is going to end. And when it's over, we're going to miss it. However crazy it is right now, we're going to look back on these years and wish we could do them all over again.

So why not enjoy it? Wow. That really helped me. That's good. That's good. This book is called, I'm sorry, go ahead. No, you got all the wisdom. Go ahead.

Oh, did you hear that, honey? on tape, right? I'm going to play this part back often. You do have a lot of wisdom. But we do talk about this in the book. Why do we have children? I wanted them just to be a mama, just to have something in my own and something shared with Ray. I wanted to invest in them. But ultimately, God gives us children to keep his kingdom plan going. Yeah, that's right. And so Ray and I, through the years, we had to talk about that. We've got these kids. We're raising them for a purpose and we're sending them out for a purpose. So when it came time for them to leave, in a sense, we felt mission accomplished, even though our hearts were sad and the house was quiet. I mean,

it was easier for me. I didn't have to feed six of us every night. I didn't have as much laundry and schedules, you know, all of it. Yeah. But we wanted to raise our kids for Christ. So, yes, we were sad when they left. The house felt empty. At the end of the day, we know marriage matters because it matters to the Lord, you know? Ephesians 5, like husbands love your wife, like Christ love the church and wives submit to your husbands.

Like, the church submits to Christ and all of this is a mystery and it's referring to Christ in the church. Like, that's why it's important. And that's why it's hard. And so that's why we need ministries like family life to help us do marriage well. Whatever season your marriage is in, whether it's thriving or just surviving, a weekend of intentional time together can be the turning point that changes everything. Weekend to remember has helped millions of couples over the last 40 years with more than 70 events across the country.

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Cole Perry to save $100 on any getaway at weekend to remember.com. That's weekendorremember.com. Cold Perry. I would be curious to hear both of y'all's perspective on let's say a single mother in particular watches this film. It's like, you know what? I never consider that I need to pray to outsource mentorship and discipleship for my son.

What does that mother do if the son doesn't want it? Like what environment does she create? Is it just she prays? Is it she needs to find a particular kind of man to connect her? Is he need to be in sports? Maybe that'll warm his heart. Like, what is the thing? Well, that is hard

because they, you know, Elijah has to have a receptive Elijah for the mantle to be received. He can offer it, but if it's not being received, then. So I do think that it feels passive, but I do feel like prayer is actually the very proactive way that a mother says, change my son, my daughter, for that matter, their heart so that they begin to realize that they don't even know

what they don't know. and they need something that they don't even recognize is actually what they need. So Lord, would you do the part that it doesn't matter how much discipline, how much talking we do? In fact, all the talking can work in the opposite direction when they're hearing it from us. It literally is the hound of heaven reaching down into the depths of their soul and shaking them out of a spiritual slumber. And it's stuff you can't orchestrate. Most of the time, because when they're 19, 20, and 21, you're not with them. You're not in their dorm room.

You're not on their college campus. with them when they're hanging out with their friends. You need the Lord to be doing stuff and orchestrating stuff that you are not around to navigate or to manipulate or to control. So yeah, they end up playing basketball and there is a coach. And that coach right there, he's the one that the Lord is intersecting with your kid's life. Or they get a summer job. And the employer at that summer job is the one that the Lord you don't even know has aligned them to say the right thing to water a sea. You know, that's the stuff you can't. Yeah, you can't construct that.

And for me, I think, you know, my mom reminded me of the, you know, the things that my grandmother said when I was young, my grandmother when I was three gave my mom a word that I'll teach the gospel in creative ways. So my whole life, she would always tell me, you're going to preach the gospel. And I'm like, mom, that's never going to happen. Yeah. You know, and it wasn't until, you know, she started to, like, truly pray for me and putting me around people like my aunt. she just realized she couldn't do it. Like one, like you said, I just, her voice became so normal to me. Yeah.

You know what I'm saying? And so it just wasn't effective anymore. But also, too, I do think that it's important that you kind of live a life that you want your kids to see. Because my mom, no shit. Mama, you see there's no offense. You only invited me to church when I got arrested. Oh, man. Oh, man.

You just put your whole mama on a blast like that? Oh, man. It's like she made church feel like a punishment. You're a great mom, Ms. Pam. She was a great mom. Ms. Pamela, you were fantastic. But she wasn't a churcher. Okay.

It's like, man. For you guys to focus on how, like, how the Lord wants to impact us throughout generations. So, like, you said one line in the book, you said, and it just convicted me as a father, you said the greatest gift that we can give are your children is the sense. and wonder that the real Jesus loves you and you love the real Jesus. Break that down. Well, that's what my dad gave me. It was the gift he gave me.

My dad was the real deal. He was a pastor of a ginormous church, but it's not like there was one guy in the pulpit and a different guy at home. One and the same. I had a front row seat for 18 years watching an office. authentic man of God, live every day. What an incredible privilege. And I've forgotten most of the things my dad ever said to me, but I can never forget

who he was. And Preston, your kids are going to forget many things that you say to them along the way. Not everything, but many things. But 30 years from now, 40, 50 years from now. when you're in glory, your children will remember and will revere who their dad was. And there will be moments of suffering for them. When they will be so inspired by remembering you, even when you're not present, you will be a presence in their lives. and they will turn aside quietly to weep.

They'll be so moved by who their dad was all those years. And they will be strengthened to go on and go on and go on in Christ. And you don't have to make that happen. God will orchestrate that for you. You just be faithful today, be an authentic man of God today. And that'll be compelling for generations. If I wasn't broken, I'll cry. No, you can just cry tonight.

I can cry tonight. I'm going to cry myself to sleep tonight. That was beautiful. This world, every day this world belittles us and tells us we don't matter. And mistreats us. It says, all you are is part of a market niche. All you are as part of a voting block. And then we open up the Bible and God tells us how much we matter.

bigger categories than we ever thought. Let's just dare to believe it. Let's dare to believe it. Lay hold of it. Wow. Wow. The blessing, he says, I can't remember where Ray and Isaiah somewhere, the blessing is for you and your children and for those who are far off. That's what we're praying.

This book will help families to see that the mundane, every day, unimpressive life. You live, we live, we all live day to day that seems in a way monotonous. Yeah. Somewhat boring sometimes. It's really important. God is using it and he will bless you. Yes. And he'll bless your kids through your faithfulness and then all those who are far off. God hides the glorious inside the monotonous every day. That's good. He's great at it. Wow. when it comes to the gospel and communicating that to our children, how have you found, how do I say this,

how you give the gospel to a three-year-old? It's different than how you give the gospel to a 15-year-old. It's not a different message, but there is a... Different method. It's just different. You know what I'm saying? It's like the way I get the gospel to somebody in the hood will be a little bit different than the way I get a gospel to somebody in Portland.

Portland got a hood, just ain't seen it. So I'm saying. How would you communicate what you just said to a three-year-old and how would you communicate what you just said to a 14-year-old? So when I talk with our... About sexuality. Yes. When I talk with our kids about the gospel,

I do say the story of King Jesus. And I try and pinpoint because kids are like the epitome of needy. So there's times, you know, we'll have them. We've been trying to help them, like, earn their own money. And some of our kids, they want to spend it like water within one second. And I'll even ask them, I'll be like, do you feel that inside, like that anxiety? I was like, usually it's not in the store when they have their money and their stuffy, their favorite stuffies in front of them. They can't quite process what's going on inside.

But later, I might be like, what did you feel inside? And even like three-year-old, four-year-old, five-year-olds, they can feel that emptiness inside. Well, I was feeling, you know, I was sad or I was bored or I was tired and I was like, and you ran to stuff. That's good. We all do that. And honestly, that's actually a really helpful framework when talking about our broken world. Last night, I was talking to my almost 11-year-old and she said, Mom, I feel really like, I don't know if I'm loved. And, you know, as a parent, you're like, great.

It's what you made. I'm failing. Yeah. I do love you. Yeah. I say it 97 times a day and I pour out my life for you. Yeah. And I literally drew a person and I drew a heart and I put a little hole in their heart.

And I was like, hey, do you feel? I said, you know what? There's so many good things. Friends. And I like drew pictures of all of it. We had this little like drawing erasable thing. I said, friends and dad and me, you know, we can we can love you and care for you. But at the end of the day, I said there's always going to be this gap.

That's good. And do you know who's the only one who can meet that? And she can eye roll at this point. You know, she knows what I'm going to say. Yeah, Jesus. Christ. But there's this pinpointing of where they're exactly at and then pointing to Jesus.

Yeah, that's beautiful. And I think it's beautiful because she doesn't have language probably to realize that, you know, you were actually creative for someone. Yes. And that's someone that's Jesus. Yeah. And so when you do feel a longing, you probably don't know how to like mentally emotionally, like to know, I'm actually longing for Jesus. And so sometimes it could just be like,

you can feel the pressure of like, oh, my kid is tired of me talking about Jesus. But it's actually the one that they have to consistently be pointed back to because that's what they're longing for. You know what? That actually helped me as a mom too, because there is, I don't know if you feel this too, Jackie, but among parents right now, there's a lot of critique of how our parents did it. And some of that is really good and needed. Yeah. Some of it, though, I'm like realizing I feel the like back swing on myself where I'm like, oh no. Now I feel like when I fail them, when I do this, that, that or the other thing, I am distorting their view of God.

I'm sending them to 95 million hours of therapy, et cetera, right? But even drawing that out and saying out loud to her that I can't complete her was actually a really helpful reminder for me as a mom that Lori. That's excellent. It's actually God is the one. Pressure off you, yeah. That's excellent. That's good.

Because I was sharing with Preston this morning how I don't consume a lot of parenting content. Yeah. I don't. Right. Because it makes me feel guilty. 100%. Like the Instagram pages, the like some of it, I got to be real desperate for me to get, you know what I'm saying?

So even this conversation, I think, can provoke that guilt in people. Like, they just going to remind me. of what I'm not doing right. Exactly. But I think for you to say, no, you need to apply the gospel even to that shame. Yeah. You know what I'm like? That's right.

Like the Lord wants to speak to that too, because it's like, you're not going to be the perfect parent. Absolutely. But we can't grow. Absolutely. And that's why this conversation and all these conversations, we need to put the burden back on God. And we need to look at our parenting and all of it through this lens of he is writing a good

story and we're just a part of it. Yeah, we are. You know, find the stuff for your kids to watch that ain't crazy and horrific and diabolical and nasty and grotesque and ridiculous and unhelpful. Yeah, it's not easy. You personally, I just be wanting my kids to watch something fun. That's also true, something light. That's also lawful, something good and great.

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the go with features like screen off, listening, carplay, and Android Auto. And it's all ad-free, so no distractions, just faith-filled content kids love. With Minow, kids don't just watch something good, they grow in it. Yeah, when it comes to Minow, I just enjoy the fact that they are offering us content that's cool, that's interesting, and that's godly because I care about what my kids enjoy and I want them to enjoy Godmost. Visit goadminto.com to start your free trial today. Plus, you can use the Co. Perry to get your first month free. This is a web-only exclusive offer. So make sure to sign up on the goadmino.com website with Cole Perry to get your first month free. Two things we really wanted to treasure in our home.

God's Word and each other. So Ray, I mean, as you all know, he's brilliant with the Bible. He's a theologian. He's got all this wisdom with God's Word. And sometimes it's hard to get it down on the kids' level. I taught second grade for many years. So we helped each other. But we tried to help our kids see that this is the most important thing in our home.

More important than our television, more important than our candy bowl, more important than our to-any-thing. This. More important than money. Yes. Yeah. So treasure God's word. And then treasure each other. Ray helped me think through, what does that mean?

I grew up in a home where there was yelling. and we decided we wouldn't run out of the room and slam a door when we're angry. You know, there were just certain things, how we treat each other. What does it mean when the Bible says, be kind to one another? That's good. So it's like we have an always never list. We always want to do and say things like this. We never want to do and say things like this.

A short list. so we can, a workable list. Yeah. Yeah. Even something small you put in the book about the book was like, yeah, the Bible's not a coaster. And so the way our children treat the Bible matters. Like, this is sacred. This is special.

We don't throw the Bible all over the place real flippantly. And I've tried to instill that. I think when it comes to just books in general is that I put books everywhere. Our children, our children love. They'll be like this. I don't even care. if it's upside down. Just get used to it.

Get used to time. Because to me, literature means I'm setting you up to want to know. Somebody asking that on a Q&A a couple of months ago. Like, what was the thing that your wife has done with your children that has been the most impactful? I don't think I told you that.

And I said the way she teaches them to read. Oh, God. They just love to read. And so, like, they're going to be born with books. You know, and so she's done a really, really good job of that. I have a question. And it's kind of off topic of what we were just talking about. I'm really loving this conversation.

It's very, very insightful. If I'm honest, when I'm fathering my children, I often think about my children. I don't think about the next generation. I just don't think about my children's children, right? And so how do you even cultivate a mind of thinking about the next generation and how does thinking about the next generation, how can that impact your current generation? Does that make sense? You know, something Jenny did that really helped me is, again, she does this annual Bible read-through, right?

So when this to the 10th generation insight kind of left off the page at her, she began to mark every verse where God talks about the generational impact of the gospel. And we were both really surprised at how frequently the Bible talks about this. We began to write those verses down. And that alone helped us. It was like we'd always sort of jumped over those words in the Bible. It was like it made no impact on us at all. Suddenly we realized we're missing.

something God is doing. And so when we finally began to underline those verses, list those verses, talk about those verses together, that's when our whole mentality changed. We began to see out into the future. And if a generation is, this is just a quick turnaround, 20 years, we want to think about our family 200 years out. Now we're not here to control them. can't do that only god has that sovereignty we are here to invest in them we're here to pray for them

and we're here to love them in advance trusting that long after we're in heaven with the lord if we pray to an eternal god then our prayers are not limited in time our prayers are active through time because they've been they've gone to God, the eternal one. That's good. So our prayers are going to be present a long time. Every parent. That's really good. How do you encourage parents who feel like I've had a, I've had a example that is unhelpful

more than I've had a helpful example? Will my kids even trust what I have to say now? Will they even believe me? Will they feel like I'm a hypocrite? Will that like, how can I tell them to be sexually pure? and they saw me fall a month ago. How can I tell my kids to honor marriage and I divorce somebody?

Like, how do you speak into that? Because I feel like we have people, I know we have people listening that feel that weight. I mean, the first thing is to take that anxiety and that shame and that wrestling and stop and take it to Jesus. Like, sooner than later.

That's good. Just face it. There's so many times when, like, parenting shame, I mean, I could go to bed every single night hating myself if I wanted to. And instead of just ignoring it and it just is like this gnat in your ear, just face it and bring it to Jesus and say, Jesus, who do you say I am? Is it actually true that I can start again right now? Is it actually true that I can hide behind the cross and your grace is actually sufficient for me? Is that true?

And then there's nothing so gloriously uncomfortable. as accepting the love and grace of Jesus. That's good. Here we are in our mess to actually say, Jesus loves me and takes this away. You're going to feel panicky. That's not a sign you're doing it wrong. You might be doing it right.

And then I would, it depends on the ages of your kids, but I like to acknowledge elephants in the room. So it would be like, you know what, guys, I have messed up. And depending on the ages of your kids, and what's the age-appropriate level of sharing what that was like, like how you messed up. It can be a general or allusion or specific. And just say, but you know what?

I love Jesus and here's his vision and I'm convinced it's good. And I want to help us see that it's good too. That's good. Because, you know, I think kids need to know that their parents know how to repent. Yes. That's what's up. We don't, none of us need perfect parents. No.

None of us need self-righteous parents either. We need parents. that know what it's like to mess up, acknowledge it, confess, and move forward. So that they have a model of how to do that too. And so I would just be encouraged, but maybe God is also training them in how to actually do this thing.

You know what I'm saying? The whole Bible is broken people. God using broken people to show us his heart, his will. Because if they were perfect, I mean, they wouldn't point to a perfect God. I think this is practical, so we have to address it. LBGTQ visuals Yeah

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Oh my God It was yeah anyway I know she used to say We was going to church One day It was a billboard I told a person Drive up drive up

Drive up drive I just start asking them I said Yeah you like that Don't know That y'all said I just want to try Distract them as much as possible

It was the hugest billboard that I knew it's like sometimes you don't feel like having the conversation I just didn't feel like saying because the two men are kissing because I didn't feel like doing it because the way I 10 year when I seven year old why is they doing that always always always I do not feel like give us y'all wisdom the visuals all right so you see the rainbow flag what do you say yes uh in the moments where you're like I actually can talk about this god they're going to flood the earth again you can I just suppose you can do that. So there's something called an unformulated experience that can happen to a kid where they see something, question mark bubbles, go above their head and it just like bounces around

their brain, just hangs out there. That feels, that produces anxiety. They're going to start trying, they're going to create their own story to finish it because our brains want to finish the loop. We as parents need to help to bring that unformulated experience into the left brain. brain, give it language. That's good. Now, that's going to calm them down. That's going to help them understand what they see. You don't have to do that every single time, but here's what you do if it's the time. So you see that rainbow flag. You see those two guys kissing. What did you think of that? Just let them answer, and they're going to say some crazy stuff. We're going to be whatever they're going to say. Yeah. Thanks so much for sharing. Thank you. I'm always thanking them.

why it's kind of different. Now, why is that not God's design? So maybe your kids have no clue. You've never talked about this one time. Wow, you know how, what is God like? Yeah, that's good. Start with God. Yeah.

God, he's big, he's strong, he's mighty, whatever they know, whatever words they do know. And what are people like? Oh, well, we're people. They probably don't even know what to say. Are we different or are we the same? We're different. moms and dads, or God designed marriage to be different between a mom and a dad,

because they actually show you a picture of how God loves you, even though he's so different from us. That's good. God wants to be one with us, and God wants marriage to be between a mommy and a daddy because he wants to show the world a picture of how different he is, but how he wants to be one with us. You is preaching.

You better preach. That's a short. Come on now. If you want to take it to level two. Yeah. Take it to level two. Here's level two. Uh-huh.

Is babies. This is such a simple apologetic. So different is required. So some people are like, oh, well, two lesbian women, they're different and off-doubt babies. I hear you. Sex difference. Sex difference. Now, why?

Babies include people, but they're not about people either. They're about God. God's heart. heart is multiplicative. He wants to create more and more images of himself everywhere because he loves us so much and he wants the whole earth to be submitted to King Jesus in worshiping him. He wants more pictures of himself everywhere. So how he designed that is two different things, showing a picture of God's how different he is from us but wants union with us. Moms and dads are different, want union with each other. Only a mom and a dad can show the multiplicative heart of God.

That's good. Two women can't. See, I think what you're also displaying is, you know that text in Deuteronomy, I don't know it. Whereas like everywhere you go, talk about this on your door, pulling all the stuff. The thing about that text is, to me, it always says, I'm not going to talk about this all the time if it's not in me. That's right. You know what I'm saying? And so even your communication to your children with this, even to distill the theology means you have to wrestle.

with it. You have to think about it. You got to know it. And so it puts us in a position to be to learn ourselves. And I think that's actually the beauty sometimes of parenting or even ministry is that you'll get asked questions that reveal a lack that maybe the Lord wants you to like, oh, I need to study that so I can come back and be like, oh, this is why this exists. Yeah. And so. Yeah. Well, and that's why I have such a heart for these moms and dads who see the two dads kissing on the big billboard or see the rainbow flag and they panic. But that's why I'm like, can we, I would take it, take it all, take everything I've written, all of the, we're doing conferences, this video project, you guys got to be a part of,

please learn these things because I just so want the next generation to not just be lost. And then like, all right, I'm affirming. And love is love. Wow. Like how do we proactively counteract the fear of our kids stumbling on porn? with the gospel. Like, like, like, because it, I'm not going to say it's not avoidable for everybody, but they're going to hear about it, see about it.

And so how, I guess I'm asking like, how do we not lead with fear of thinking, like, once our kid sees this, they're going to be forever tainted. They're going to be forever ruined. Like, like, what would your advice be to parents in that, in that way? I think the biggest thing is to realize that that first exposure is coming earlier than you imagine. I mean, I think the last study I, I read was the average age of first exposure to pornography is something like eight years old. Between eight and 12.

There's several studies out there. Yeah. And so, I mean, it's coming before you realize. It's not when they're in puberty. It's very much earlier. But if we're talking about it, if we become the first person that's like, hey, you might see things online that make you feel confused or maybe intrigued or something. If we're the first one that talks to them about that, we're the ones that they can come

to when they have maybe been exposed to it and they can actually process it. It's not something they're like, oh, I saw something and I feel weird about it and I can never talk to anyone. And then I have to process it in silence or on the playground. Wow. I'm even more overt. I like sat our kids down. It was like Matt was seeing clients late. And I was like, Lori, just have the conversation about porn. Do it. So I prayed about it. And you know, our kids at this point we're 1085 and I said do you guys know that you know how we talk about how the internet is not a very safe place that for one is a common conversation yeah we're trying to get them in embodied interactions and we want to be leery of the internet yeah I said do you know that some people they

actually take pictures of private parts and they put them online oh what I said that out loud because as a mom, I want to be their anchoring bias. Have you heard that? Jesus. That's a good word. Y'all speaking so I was, y'all don't buy their kids. I felt that. I never heard that in my life and I liked it.

Anchoring bias, it's a psychological term that means the first place that we hear something is going to be the gold standard to which we compare everything else. Wow. Do I want the gold standard for the internet, for sex, for, relationships to be pornography where nine out of ten videos are violent. Or do they stumble across it and that first stumbling across porn is actually a trauma? Or do I want if and I would say when? Probably likely.

You're going to see some at least soft porn Instagram is covered in it. I want them to remember mom and dad already told me about this. So I didn't stop it there. Did you know that some people put on the internet? No. why would they do that? You guys, it's so sad, isn't it? People, that is not, we're supposed to honor our body, aren't we?

We're supposed to honor these places. So I just want you to know that if you guys come across that, you shut whatever it is you're looking at, you come fine mom and dad, and I want you to know you will not get in trouble. Why is that important? Because shame is a real jerk. And Satan,

sexuality and shame are like best buddies. Yeah. Yeah. So I even asked them right after. So if you come across a picture like that, will you get in trouble? Mm-hmm. I'm not kidding.

I literally just said five seconds before you're not going to get in trouble. Yeah. Already Satan was jumping in as far as like trying to... She's lying. Yeah, exactly. They went, uh, I don't know. Yeah. You will not get in trouble.

Yeah. And so we went through it. So I said, what happens? A review, what do you do? They tell me back and will you get in trouble? No, we go through that like every six months. Yeah. You see parents, I think, swing the pendulum where they respond in shame, which might be embarrassment,

really, or fear, where it's just like, why would you do that? That's stupid. That's dumb. Da-da-da-da-da. Or, like, my mama, she found stuff and ain't say a thing because I don't think she wanted any parts of it. I think it just overstimulated her, gave her anxiety. Like, my daughter's watching more and I don't know what to do this. So how do we not flee?

and how do we not attack? How do we respond like Christ? Yeah. To be curious. And I would say first and foremost of your own sexual story, if you haven't processed your own story, if you haven't processed your own sin and struggles, then you are not going to respond well to someone else's. That's good, sir. And so I know, like, I've had many times where that thing that you were talking about, either someone coming out or being caught, looking at pornography, sleeping with boyfriend, girlfriend,

whatever, where I've had the whole family in my office and I asked the question like to the parents and to the kid, hey, what shaped your sexual story?

And they will literally look at me like a deer in headlights and be like, are we allowed to talk about this? Wow. I'm like, you need to talk about this

because if you're not, like who are they talking about it with? That's good. That's excellent because Black sharks, we throw shoes. I might throw a sock at you

because I ain't got a shirt. I think I've developed my strategy on how to respond to people's sin because of how the Lord has responded to mine. Yeah. It's a conscious awareness of how he treated and treats me. That's right. And knowing like, no, I want to give away that same grace. Now, alongside the grace, though, there's also a need for boundaries and discipline.

And so how do you create boundaries and discipline that doesn't also feel? feel like a, like a, a consequence that's like, you know, you know what I'm trying to say? It's not a slap on the wrist. Yeah. It's like, you need some discipline and some boundaries, but I also don't want you to feel shame. So it's like, but I got to do something. And also, too, I thought about that as a parent.

I've thought about, man, I need to give my children discipline because, you know, God chastises us, right? He disciplines us. but I'm afraid that my discipline will prevent them from coming back to me and freedom again. And so I think what is the balance of disciplining and not being afraid to make them shut down? Real questions. So the goal is of God's dis-hatred, whatever word you want to use, of sin,

is because he wants union with us. He wants holiness, he wants purity. We could even use that word because he wants union. He doesn't want to beat us over the head. It's not like, he's like, gosh, I just love hurting my kids. Yeah, that's good. No. So do we have that heart?

I'm looking at my kid who's whatever they're feeling, shame, guilt, whatever they're feeling. I want union with them. I want to show them, like you said, the heart of the father. If it's the first exposure, every therapist that you read, every psychologist, psychiatrist, who is in this field will tell you that's trauma. We don't discipline trauma because a child's brain cannot ever prepare themselves for what they see on that screen. Ever. Wow.

Now, if they're, you know, they stole the iPad, they went around behind your back, you know, they're lying about 79 things. You've got to have discernment there. But truly, those first exposure exposures, it's a trauma. And we need to treat it as such. I'm so sorry you saw that. Like what if they encountered that? They saw someone having sex around the block. I'm so sorry.

That is trauma for you. How are you feeling? Thank you for telling me. I told you wouldn't get in trouble. You're not getting in trouble. Now, parents are listening to this and they're like, oh my goodness, I definitely grounded my kid for 17 weeks after their first exposure. Grace, grace, grace, grace, grace, grace.

There's so much. It's about repairing. We can always go back. But I would say, we need to be cautious with those first, like, sneaking exposures because curiosity and sexuality, they're very close in the brain. That's good. Ooh, that's good.

And kids, like, who, no one has a fully developed brain when they're 12 years old. You know, however old they are stumbling across it. And so they see it and it weakens things up. If you've had sexual abuse, you know the confusion of that. Yeah. Because it wakes things up in your body. That's what's happening to our precious kids. Yeah.

So I would ask the question. how are you feeling? How did, you know, it might make you feel a mix of emotions. That's okay. Wow. So that's where I'd begin. The discipline piece, you know, even in our book we talk about that, I say, just be cautious with that in these early ages.

Our book is 12 and under, you know, if you're talking to a kid who's been watching porn and masturbating and do all the stuff for 10 years, whatever, that's a whole other conversation. But these early exposures, I would just encourage us to walk tenderly and seek union. That's good. Yeah. I think I think that's great what you said because I think if somebody, if somebody feel like their parent is just mad because I'm just irritated, I'm mad that you disobey me. But I love the fact that you pointed back to the heart of God.

God doesn't discipline us because of that. He disciplines us because ultimately what he wants is fellowship. He wants communion. He wants connection. And doing things that goes against his nature breaks that. And so I think what if we bring that into our parents? What do we bring that framework? Like, Daddy's not mad at you because I'm just irritated.

I'm disappointed in you. This actually breaks peace between me and you and Daddy. Daddy wants to enjoy you. And so I think that would even color, like, when we do discipline our kids, like, to know, like, Daddy's mad because he loves me and he wants to stop peace with one another. And if you're lying and walking around here doing things that I told you, it breaks that peace. It breaks that fellow.

It breaks that, you know, communion. And so I think that's really, really helpful. And I want to say something that's going to sound a bit mystical. But I want parents to know that take heed to the Holy Spirit's promptings about stuff. You know, like I've had so many times where I've had dreams. I've had just unctions that I need to have a certain conversation, that I need to look at a certain thing, that I need to check a certain situation. It's true. Honestly, and it's, it's, because the Lord is guiding, like, his spirit is guiding you as you parent, your children.

And it's been when I've ignored stuff that I've found stuff, you know. And so I think, just to pay attention to that. And because I wish I had it. I remember hearing kids who grew up with Christian parents talk about like, man, the Lord always told on me. And I love that he's doing that now. Like, the Lord be telling my kids business to me. Like, I love it. Now, y'all in the book talk about how you read the Bible at dinner.

Who started that? Y'all eat dinner every day. Y'all eat at the table every day. Is you making the dinner? Is it Uber eats? Is it like a spiritual discipline for y'all? Like, what did y'all do when the babies couldn't read the devotional? You read it to them?

Is it the NLT? You're doing ESV, NSA. How? Tell us about your Bible time with your kids. Yeah. Usually it's at breakfast. So we try to start the day. Which is like Lucky Charms.

Yeah, I mean, I mean, it's a lot of times it's lucky charms or maybe some box pancake mix or something. Codiac cakes. Those are good. Protein cakes.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But it started off as like a kids devotional. I think the one we stuck on most is like thoughts to make your heart sing. It's just these little like two paragraph devotionals with with the kids. We would read them to them to them.

And then eventually once our girls got old enough to read on. on their own, it would kind of rotate. Someone reads, and then the other person kind of leads the prayer time of, hey, what does everyone need prayer for today? And so that's where we've been at. We've started transitioning to like, hey, let's read the actual Bible because it is time for them to really start cracking it open. They have their own Bible.

You know, but given the ages of our kids, you know, our youngest still likes the little, two-minute, two-paragraph thing. Yeah. But it's just that early exposure. It's a rhythm. I would say our best weeks, it's like four times a week. And I'd love it to be seven, but it's probably about five minutes. But it's so good for us.

There's so many times we'll be like, that's Sally Lloyd-Jones. She really just gets me. But we'll read it, or one of the girls will read it, and we just go around and we say, what did you hear in that? And so they could say, Jonah, wail. And as long as they're not being sassy, we don't care. It's just, just let's get in the posture. of like we read it, you think about it.

Yeah. And then the prayer time, it's really sweet. Our four-year-old has been leading it for a while. He's now six. He's four or five, six, and he'll just say, what do you want prayer for? And initially, like, we have all the person. Yeah, he'll go around. The intercessor.

Yes. Yeah, yeah. And then he'll pray in his sweet little heart. But at the beginning, none of them want to. None of them really, it's a shaping of our family. Yeah. But it's really sweet when, you know, we read this, we say what we heard in it, even Matt and I say, and then we say something we're thankful for and what we want prayer for.

And to have a five-year-old pray for you. Yeah. I had one of my spiritual leaders tell us, tell me when I was disciplining young men, he said, he said, you need to stop telling you the people that you disciples. They need stop telling you what they need. You, like Jesus never asks the disciples, what do you need? And I think the same thing can be sad for our children. Like, they don't know they need it.

But as time goes on, they realize this actually is benefiting me, you know. And so sometimes we have to just bully our kids. Like, no, you don't pray even when you don't feel like it. This is what you need. And you'll see it eventually. Yeah. You know. I remember a framework that I heard from Jen Wilkin a long time ago that was really helpful

is that she was like, when your kids are young, it's high frequency, low depth. Yeah. When your kids are older, it's low frequency, high depth. And it kind of released me from feeling like I need. to teach them about eschatology at two, three, four. You know what I'm saying? Totally. Like I'm thinking like, oh, y'all need to know the atonement.

Yeah. But it was like it was fine. Propitiation. Yeah, it was fine to say, like I remember I took Eden with me to teach at passion some years back. She was like six. And I was teaching Isaiah six. And she was in the back and I said, did you understand anything? I said, and she said, no.

And I said, I taught about God being holy. I said that means that he's different. and that he's good. I didn't have to say that he is, you know, preeminent, that he is sanctified, that he is different, he's good. And that's it. That's right. I'm just building bricks.

And so I think don't feel this pressure to give your children a seminary education beyond their bandwidth. Like the Lord can do a lot with a little. And that's what was fun about writing this book. So I've been in this space for over 10 years, teaching churches and teaching adults. but there's nothing like taking these huge concepts and making them so five-year-old understand what marriage is what is sex when you talk about it with them

when they're eight, nine, ten, you know. So it's, but it helps me learn it and it is still true even if it's simple. And make sure a better teacher too when you have to teach children. It does. You have to break things down in a very, very simple complex. Like big ideas, very, very simple.

it makes you way by a teacher. In your book, you give vision for not only marriage, but singleness. I can't say I've seen that before. Because I think we're usually trained to disciple our children in having a vision for marriage only. So what's the strategy with that? So we talked a little bit about the gospel from a heart view. We talked a little bit about. about the gospel is a story of King Jesus.

When I ask our kids, what is the purpose of your life? What is the mission today? What is the mission of God? Here's how we say it. The mission of God is to push back the darkness and usher in the light. So our kids, they don't want to go to school. Nobody, they ever want to go to school. Why don't have to go to school?

There's an instinct in me that wants to say, you have to go to school because you have to get a good job and you have to become a marketable spouse. Already I'm leaning into idolatry because I don't know that that's true. That's good. And you can make XYZ money and get out someday because I'm tired. Or I could say, God is advancing his kingdom or in kids speak. God wants to push back the darkness and usher in the light. And he made you so good.

And he's actually given you incredible. gifts and when you go to school, you're helping, you're sharpening the gifts that God has given you to help advance this kingdom work. I said nothing about marriage because marriage and singleness are the modes we live out the mission to advance God's kingdom. That's good. Now, keep going, we do say things about marriage and singleness, but we say things like, do you see that bird over there? Look at the little eggs. Or in the springtime where it's like all flowering and beautiful. Isn't that so cool? God is a God who wants to make babies. I'm talking about the multiplicative heart of God. You see that

in churches. You see that everywhere. God is a God who wants to make babies. And he might have called you, dear one, to get married and have babies. If God gives you babies, you know, I'm not about to say he's definitely going to give you kids. I don't. another story, but he wants you to make disciples. He wants us to make babies, whether he calls you to marriage or if God calls you to singleness, which is equally good. I don't even need to say it because they know that. It's so ingrained in our heart, in our house. Or he might call you to singleness, but he still has called you to have babies. That's good. Yeah. Because he wants everyone to make disciples. Wow. That's really good. That's transformative. You felt that in your shando?

I did. It did a little quickening thing. Because there's so much, so much that we have to, There's so much we have to undo about marriage and singleness in the church today. You have so many singles or you have recently divorced people who now feel lost, you know, because they're no longer married. So it's just like, I think to cultivate that in your children is just kind of deep and interesting. Yeah. And I think that's another reason why people... Your knee is so bony.

I think... I was like, ooh, spicy. My goodness, gracious. I think that's another reason why people feel like they can't actually fulfill the purpose of God in their life until they get married. And so they feel like they can be fruitful until they find a spouse. And I think that, you know, that type of ideology. Can I say I don't know.

Which is spiky knee? No. This morning we were talking and we were saying how ministry to our children as it relates to our marriage in particular is not just communicating Ephesians 5 and Genesis 1 and 2 and all the stuff. It's living it. Yeah. It's like how we exist as a married couple.

also preaches to our children. And so how is, I guess how would you encourage people, even about that being a lesson? Like it's not just the words, it's also the union between you two. About marriage in particular, also singleness. Marriage. But the singleness part, because y'all ain't single.

So I would be interested on how y'all preach a vision of singleness as non-singles. You have dope single people in your life. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You have single people in your life who love Jesus because that's not a lesser calling. I was just reading in 3rd John 1 4. He says, I have no greater joy than to see my children are living in the truth.

That's good. He's not married and he doesn't have kids. He has spiritual kids. Yeah. And God has empowered him. God has given and gave him the gift of singleness, just like he gave Paul the gift of singleness. So when we have our single friends over, it's not like, oh, our poor sad sex. friend. Yeah. It's look at how amazing she is. Yeah. And I say, I literally say this to them,

our friend Cassie, who's in our book. I say, God has called her to singleness. And I don't always even say in this season, you might call her forever. Yeah. But look at what she's doing with her singleness. Yeah. Or God might call you to marriage. And that's to your point. And how you love your spouse, that shows your kids a picture of God's love for them. Yeah. And then I got into my teenage years. And just, just all the things, you know, all the things that wasn't supposed to be doing, like talking on the phone after a certain time. And we had a line in our room. You know, we had a house phone, but then me and Crystal, at some point, got our own line in our room. And there was a certain time we're not

supposed to be on the phone. I was always out on the phone with a boy after the hour. I wasn't supposed to talk to boys on the phone until I was 17, I think. I couldn't talk to boys on the phone. Couldn't go on dates. I'm out, you know, going to youth group. But I'm going to youth group because I'm meeting a guy that I'm going to sit next to, we might walk to the Brahms down the street, you know, during service, you don't know what I mean?

Then come back. That was me. So then, of course, your parents always are alerted, whether it's because somebody just saw me at the Brahms, or it's because the Holy Spirit is like, Snitches gets stitches.

Some's off. Some ain't going. The Holy Spirit, he's the biggest snitch. That's right. So I always got caught in all my, and so I was grounded all the time, basically grounded.

And then in college, I just was raggedy. She said raggedy. I was ragged. I just did not make wise decisions. I was in places. Man, oh my gosh. Help a God.

Or rescued me. Yeah, he did. Because I remember being in basically a trap house, went to a party. You were in a trap house? That's what Evans. That back went to Evans days. Evans. You was around on crack rocks?

I'm pretty sure that's what it was. I went to. to a, I will not say which fraternity, but me and my friend Sunni, we went to a frat party. And when I think about it, walking into that door and seeing all these men doing what they were doing, playing spades and dominoes and doing the most, smoking, drinking 40s everywhere. And me and this little girl, 18 years old, walking through there, oh my gosh. there ain't no way I should have made it out of there without being damaged in some way

when I think about it. I can give you scenario after scenario where just lack of wisdom where you don't even know how dumb you are and how much trouble you're getting yourself into until you look back and go, ooh, if the Lord had not been a hedge of protection around me, I would not have made it.

So just dumb decisions, wrong influences, being very casual about the way I spent my time and with whom I spent it, just sort of. And then the Lord was, his grace was sufficient for my raggedy stage. Wow. With the Perrys is produced by the Perrys with support from Amanda Reed and Channing McBride, video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley. Edited by the team at Tread Lively.

Artwork by Hobb. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.