With The Perrys - Deep Dive: The Gospel, Evangelism & Making Disciples

Episode Date: August 10, 2026

To change things up from a typical re-run, our team has put together “deep dive” episodes on specific topics or themes, pulling key moments from relevant episodes and bringing them together for one comprehensive listening experience.  In this Deep Dive, Jackie and Preston discuss understanding what the gospel actually is, sharing your faith with wisdom and love, talking to family members who don’t believe, and walking alongside others as they grow in their faith. Today’s Deep Dive features content from four past episodes: How to Give the Gospel: Part 1 (September 2023) – https://youtu.be/0HvbjB-x_o0 How to Give the Gospel: Part 2 (October 2023) –https://youtu.be/SbP_Tvw2U8U How To Tell The Truth (April 2024) – https://youtu.be/qT6NtfpRGck How to Make Disciples That Make Disciples (May 2024) – https://youtu.be/PhbesSgcjKY More resources: Apologetics with Preston Perry (YouTube channel) – https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5tYCIeywXPsNEhxU3yfZvw Preston’s book, “How to Tell the Truth: The Story of How God Saved Me to Win Hearts--Not Just Arguments” – https://www.amazon.com/How-Tell-Truth-Hearts-Not-Arguments-ebook/dp/B0CL7NSWJS Jackie’s Bible Study, “Jude: Contending For the Faith in Today’s Culture” – https://www.lifeway.com/en/product-family/jude-bible-study Brian Dye on Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/visionnehemiah Brian Dye’s ministry, Hood Heroes – https://www.legacydisciple.org/hoodheroes Scripture references: 2 Timothy 2:23-26 1 Peter 3:15 Matthew 28:19 This Episode is Sponsored By: Https://fieldofgreens.com — Get 20% off with promo code PERRY - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Accenture. When your advertising operations fall out of sync, everything else follows. Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales, using automation, analytics, and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business. The result? Less time spent on operations, more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most. Learn more at Accenture.com slash Spotify.

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Wayfair, every style, every home. Yeah, for sure. Before we even talk about that, I mean, I think it's important for us to lay a foundation of what is the gospel. I think we hear the gospel presentation all the time, but you can never hear it enough. Right. When I used to work at this nonprofit in Chicago, I was, so my job was to interview and manage and lead a bunch of volunteers. And the volunteers were mentors to inner city youth or whatever. And he said inner city youth.

I don't even like that term because it just implies a lot of things. But anyway, I had added to the interview process because they didn't have this, but I added to the interview process to question, what is the gospel? It was astounding to me how many volunteers who were Christians who I would ask what is the gospel and they could not answer that question one girl in particular I said

what is the gospel and she was like well I think I think it's safe to say that the gospel is like the book of Matthew and Mark and Luke and John I was like those are the gospels but what is the gospel

that they contain right and she couldn't answer the question. And so I think the gospel, and not I think, the gospel is the message of salvation and what Christ has done for us. Good news. All the things.

Now, how does the gospel begin, though? Because I think... That's a good question. We have a habit of either going straight to good news, but also straight to bad news. But the Bible doesn't actually begin with bad news. No, it doesn't. Yeah, and I'm glad you said that

because the gospel story is essentially, essentially about the story of God, right? It starts off with a good God creating his creation and calling it good. That's, I think that's how the gospel starts off. And so I think before we think about the fall of man, because I think a lot of times people, the gospel starts off that we fail from grace.

And you know what I mean? And it's like, no, it actually starts off but in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth and the earth is our form and void and darkness is always. You know, it starts with off with this creator, creating us. And so God created mankind for his glory, for his purpose. And then after that, that's when the, you know, the news kind of gets bad, or not kind of get bad, it gets bad. It gets bad. When we sinned against God and regarding causing.

Horrific, tragic, scary, horrible, insidious, diabolical. Okay. Any more? Discouraging. Sinful. Unrighteous. All right. Lice the inches. Lice the inches.

You're so petty. Go ahead. Yeah, when we're sitting against God in the garden, I mean, causing God in his righteousness to judge the world and judge all unrighteousness. You know, that's when it gets bad. We fail from his grace. We fell from his perfection. But because he is a holy and a righteous judge, the good news is that he's also a loving, God. And so he didn't judge the world without first promising to save. And he did so by sending his

son into the world who knew no sin to become sin so that we can become the righteousness of God. I want to slow down a bit, though, because you just preach the gospel. Because I think it could be a habit, again, to preach the fall first. And I get it. It's just like, you know why you need the good news. You know why you need Jesus because you sinned against God. Yes. But sin, sin, actually only makes sense up against some kind of communication or instruction about the nature of God. Right. Right.

And so it is, it is, it is wiser not to begin the gospel with, you are sinful and you are bad, but to begin with God is good. Yeah. Because you only understand sin when you understand righteousness and holiness, right? Is that you fail from a standard that God has set in himself. Yeah, yeah.

He's good, he's righteous. And Adam and Eve were to but they wanted to listen to the devil. And I can understand. Here we go. And I can understand the pressure that sometimes people have because we live, especially for people who just want to stay true to the gospel and who don't want to be so, like, grace heavy where they don't give truth.

It's like I think sometimes it can be an over emphasis on the fall because so many people lack truth. And so I think the gospel is a beautiful balance of both grace and truth. And so I think we want so don't so death. for people to understand you are a sinner you're it is you're falling but it's just like no if the bible message doesn't start off that way why are you starting off that way like it undermines god's intentions though you know what i'm saying because it's really just bad anthropology it's like we we inherited sin but we were not created to be sinful right right yeah yeah absolutely and so what

so what like the whole idea of even being born again and and and and putting on a new nature is that God wants to redeem and restore his original intention for us. Absolutely. Which is for us to mirror and image him. But even as, you know, as an evangelist and giving the gospel, I used to go to like very atheistic environments or whatever. Atheistic. Come on here. I like that. You're so crazy. I saw the power in, you know, letting people understand, like helping people understand how they were originally created, how we as a creation was originally created. How was it hopeful?

It was very helpful because I think a lot of times when somebody walk up to a person as an atheist or agnostic or somebody who's just really cool on God and they understand that I'm a Christian, I kind of can see their eyes and their posture's like, okay, you're about to preach at me. You're about to tell me how sinful I am. And so one, it shocks them that I, instead of coming for that sin right away, I tell them know that you were created with a purpose, that I don't know you, but I know why you were created. That's good.

You were created for glory. You were created by God who has you in mind. You were created, you know, with a purpose. And because of sin, a lot of us don't know that purpose. But God and His righteousness came to the world to dwell amongst his own creation to restore us back to our original state. And so I think having a framework of how the Bible starts helps us. us even in how we evangelize the world.

It's like, no, a lot of times we can focus on sin and we can miss the fact that God, you know, sent his son to restore us back to what we once were. Does that make sense? And so I, you know, I've just found it in my personal opinion to be powerful when people were like, oh, like, no, like this is the reason why, you know, the world is messed up. This is the reason why, you know, my father rejecting me.

This is the reason why the church rejected me because, you know, we live in a fallen world, but God wants to restore not only me, but all of mankind. When you say that, what do you mean? Yeah, we were originally perfect. We were originally, you know, not perfect. Our first parents. Our first parents, you know, Adam and Eve.

And we were created to mirror and to image God. And I think what happened in the fall, in the Garden of Eden, we felt we became so unlike him because of our sin. And so when it says that every man born after Adam will be born inheriting this particular sin, we were born with this propensity to love the things that God hates and to hate the thing that God loves. And so I think that's what fallen is to have a fallen nature. Like the fall may humanity become so unlike him, which is the reason why Jesus,

it had to come to be the propitiation for our sins. And so I think that's what, in a nutshell, what being falling is. What would you say? Yeah, we fell from a standard. Because I think Romans is top tier when it comes to understanding the gospel and just kind of even the storyline of humanity.

For sure. Because some people were often, I think it can be confusing to even think about how like, yeah, Adam's sinned. Why is it, why is it my fault? Right? Like why did I have to be considered sinful when he's the one who did it?

But scripture, I think Romans five kind of helps us frame this. Romans 512 says, therefore just as sin came into the world through one man and death through sinned. And so death spread to all men because all sinned. For sin indeed was in the world before the law. And da-da-da-da-da-da, verse 14. Yet death reign from Adam to Moses, even those who's sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one to come. It's this sense in which there's this theological term for it.

I don't remember what it's called. It doesn't even matter. But it's like, if he was our first parent, right, then in the same way that you inherit traits and, you know, ways of being from your father and his father and his father. in the same way, like, he was the first human being. So he set the pattern for what the rest of humanity would be like. And so because we come in his lineage, we also inherit his sin. That's cool. But we also have this, like, self-righteousness about us where it's like,

if Adam's sin, why am I the one judge? It's like, but you're sinning too. Yeah. Right? Like, you still choose to sin. And so you still are very much accountable for what, what you have chosen to do even if you didn't sin in the same way that Adam did.

Yeah, for sure. Does it make sense? It makes a lot of sense. And I think that's, I think, you know, instead of us focusing on Adam, I think it should really make us focus on God because God in his goodness right away. Right away.

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Make Field of Greens your one smart change this year. You can check out the university study and get 20% off at fieldofgreens.com, promo code Perry. That's fieldofgreens.com promo code Perry. Key asked him, where y'all at? They said we hide behind the tree. What people don't realize is that they knew that God had said, the day you eat of this tree, you shall surely die, right? And so that there was going to be,

there was going to be some consequence, some judgment assigned to them by virtue of them sinning against a just God, right? And so when God walks into the cool of the day in the garden, instead of them going to him for deliverance from the judgment, they hide behind the tree. And what that means is that they assume that the tree would be some kind of mediator, that the tree could protect them from the judgment to come. And I think that is the beginning.

I think that's the beginning of our kind of propensity to look to creation to save us from God. That's good. Instead of going to God to save us from God, which is the gospel. So in Genesis 3, God, he gives curses to Adam, to Eve, and to the serpent. And to the serpent, he says, verse 15, chapter 3, I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your office. and her offspring. Listen. Listen. You listen? I'm listening. He pronoun shall bruise your head and you shall bruise his heel. I'll read it again. I will put enmity. Why you read like the Hebrew Israelites? Read. That's what you're supposed to say. I will put enmity between you and the woman. This is God talking to Satan. And between your offspring and her offspring, he shall bruise your head and you shall bruise your head and you shall bruise his heel. I think this, this.

ESV is not really getting at what God is saying. Because he says that technically that the offspring that will come from this woman will not just merely bruise in a way where like I injure you. But if I bruise your head, I break you. I render you lifeless, ineffective, inefficient, right? And no offspring from the woman was able to defeat Satan because they were just as, not just as sinful, but they were born under a dominion of sinfulness and humanity that didn't allow them to actually have the moral power to defeat Satan.

Because why? Everybody was born in sin except Jesus. So Jesus comes. And we already know that he is obviously the consummate. I don't think consummation is a good word. We know that he's like the promise seed when you get to stuff like look for. Yeah.

Because Jesus, he goes into the wilderness. Who show up? The devil. And he tempts him with the same stuff. He came to Eve and was like, hey, don't that look good for food, girl? When he goes to Jesus and say, hey, I know you hungry. Yeah, turn those stones into bread. He trying to get, he trying to get Jesus to sin against God with the stomach.

Yeah. But he defeats that and he defeats the whole, like go up on the mountain and throw yourself down. And he defeats the other stuff. And so now, like, Jesus is victory. over sin his entire life proves that he was the one who had come to crush the serpent's head. Yeah, that's really good. That's really good. I do want to add some clarity to the fullness of the gospel, which is God created us good or created human, he created us with the intention to be good in the same way that he created

Adam and Eve. They fell from that standard, sin against God, and therefore God was required to judge them because he's just, right? And then we. we were born in sin and shaped iniquity. So we inherited that same propensity and desire to love and want everything other than God. And so the problem is we can't work ourselves into God's righteousness. We can't earn it. There's nothing we can do. And so God and His grace sent Jesus to live the life that we couldn't live and die the death that we deserve.

But the gospel doesn't just end with the cross. Yeah. The gospel also has a resurrection attached. Because it means nothing if Jesus just dies. Right. If he just dies, we're still hopeless. If there is no resurrection, we still don't have life. And so the fact that he rose from the dead confirms that the Lord one accepted his death as an atonement, as a sacrifice for our sins. But it also shows that he has the power over death. And so when he then says, come to me, all who are heavy laden in it of burden, I get your rest. It's like, no, in him, I can have freedom from sin. In him, I can conquer death. In him, I can bruise the head of the serpent.

But not only that, he also promises his spirit to feel us so that we can walk righteously. And so I think that's a fuller picture of the gospel. Now, how you engage the culture with that. I think one, the gospel has to, the gospel really has to be something, how do I say it? It has to define you. You know? Like, I don't think you can engage culture with the gospel if the gospel isn't a part of your own identity. Explain that.

Explain what you mean. So really practical example, when I started to be disciple, before being disciple, I was probably, I was 19, new to Jesus. And I went to a church, I've said this before, that really esteemed gifts a whole lot. And so because I'm gifted, they esteemed me, gave me all this honor, all these things. But they weren't discipling me. They weren't showing me how to read scripture. They weren't showing me how to, like, walk worthy of the calling to which I had been called. and I was struggling just in my mind

and my heart with sin and immaturity and lack of wisdom. And Santoria, when she started to disciple me, I came to her to tell her about how I was struggling with this particular lust issue. And she was like, Jackie, what you need to do is you need to meditate on the gospel. I'm like, what?

Because again, I'll come from a context where I'm thinking she's going to tell me to fast. Yeah. To Terry, to go get some hands laid on me, which is helpful. But for her to say meditate on the gospel, that didn't seem like power. Yeah.

That didn't seem good enough. And I'm like, why would I do that? And she was like, because this is what she said. She said, the gospel didn't just save you. The gospel also keeps you. You have to continually remind yourself what Jesus accomplished on the cross for your sin and there is where your power is. And so that's what I mean by it has to define you.

Like if the gospel is not a part of your daily meditation, If the gospel is not a part of how you do life and why you do life, then it's not going to show up in your ministry. It's just not. What's going to show up in your ministry is works. What's going to show up in your ministry is legalism. What's going to show up in your ministry is even the other end of that, which is a license is low key,

where it's like God loves us so, you know, we could just kind of do whatever we want to do. The gospel centers you where it's like, no, I've been redeemed by the blood of the lamb. There is grace, but there's also a response to what Christ has done, which is holiness. That's good. That's good. Because I think what I hear you saying in which I had to fight with early on in my Christian walk is,

I think a lot of times some church coaches try to push us to how to obtain a particular power. But it really is about reminding yourself of who has the power and who you are in, right? because that's what's going to sustain us. Because a lot of times we just lose sight of Jesus. Yeah. That he came and defeated all sin, that he was the propitiation for our sins, which means...

What's propitiation? Propitiation means the process in which God's wrath has been removed from us, right? And so, like, because of our sin and rebellion against God, God's wrath was upon us. And so it isn't that God's stopped being loving when we sin. He's always loving, just like the sun is always consistent, right? But if we go outside and all we see is utter darkness,

it isn't that the sun is shining. The sun is consistent. It's always shining. It's just the earth has to rotate, causing the sun to shine on us. And so Jesus being the propitiation for our sins. Why do you get that metaphor? I ain't never heard you do that.

Maybe it's the Lord. You just made that up? No. I'm cutting it too. I thought about it before. But yeah, but that's what propitiation is. It's literally like Jesus. being the propitiation for our sins is a process in which Jesus came,

took the full wrath of God, in exchange, gave us his righteousness, and took our unrighteousness, and now God's consistent and holy love is being able to be shifted upon us, taking us out of darkness, and bringing us into his marvelous light. And so, like, I think when we meditate on the fact that, like, no, who I am in Christ is a position, and maybe I'm struggling in my walk because I have not meditated and reminded myself of who I'm in and who has the power, right?

And all power is in the right hand of Jesus. And so I think meditating on the gospel gives us the confidence to walk righteous and holy before God. This episode is brought to you by Accenture. When your advertising operations fall out of sync, everything else follows. Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales

using automation, analytics, and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business. The result? Less time spent on operations, more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most. Learn more at Accenture.com slash Spotify. Hey, y'all, it's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture online and wonder, what if? Like, what if it doesn't hold up? That sofa was four days old.

You should have ordered from Wayfair. With Wayfair, there's no what if. Just style you love and quality you can trust. Visit wayfair.ca. Wayfair, every style, every home. We left off by saying that in engaging and discipling and giving the great commission in the gospel, sin has to be addressed.

Yeah, for sure. How do I say this? Do we, in what way do we do a disservice to the people we minister to if we do not talk about sin? Yeah, I think, because in the first episode, we talked about laying a foundation of what the gospel is, and not starting with sin, but starting with the glory of God

and how God created us and his image and his likeness and all of that. But I do think that there has to come a time where people sin is addressed because the Bible addresses people's sin. And so I think it's a difference between beating somebody over their head with their sin and showing them that like, no,

the God who created you, the God of the universe, you fail from his perfection and these are all the problematic ways in which is keeping you from him because I think what sin, I think, I know what sin does is it separates us from the Lord.

And so I do think that if we do it with grace and truth, you know, letting people know, like, man, this is the reason why you are separated from God because this jealousy in your heart like God wants to nip it in the bud. This is this aim.

anger in your heart. It's preventing you from seeing the glory of God. This covetiness in your heart, right? This idolatry in your heart. And a lot of times we just become idols of so many things in the world. And we realize why it's a disconnect, why we haven't felt close to the Lord in months. It's because it's a sin in our life. It's preventing us from being close. We have to address that because that's the reality of the human condition. Yeah. is that our hearts are wicked and sinful and depraved. And because of it, we make up things about ourselves.

We make up things about God. And I think the preaching against sin is it benefits people in that they need to know what's in the way of fellowship with God. For sure. But it also brings people low. So like Romans 1, for example, you have Paul going on this, what seems like a long rant about how the wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness, right? And how all men, all men have fallen short of the glory of God.

And then he goes on to detail particular sins that are a part of this falling short. He talks about homosexuality. He talks about, let me read some of it since we're here. Can you hold my coffee? God bless you. He talks about maliciousness, strife, murder, evil, covetousness, slanderers, gossipers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.

And then chapter two, why does he do this? Therefore, connecting to the previous chapter, you have no excuse, oh man, every one of you who judges for in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, meaning the Jews are over here thinking, oh, that's the Gentiles. Like the Gentiles, they underneath the wrath of God. We, we Abraham people. We good. But it's like, no, if you have practiced these things, you actually, you're not even in the

position to judge anybody because you're just as needy. And so I think this is, I think preaching against sin humbles us under the mighty hand of God so that we can now see that we actually do need Jesus. So we preach sin. so people know the reality of their state before God, and we also preach sin to cultivate and nurture a desire for a savior. So you get what I'm saying? How will you know that you need saving if you don't realize that you need saving?

Yeah, that's good. That's good. What other way is there? Let me ask you this, though, because I think, you know, people who probably watch your sermons or watch my YouTube videos of evangelism and stuff like that, they've seen us kind of address sin, right? got to. Right. It is not just saying go out and just pew truth out to everybody who will listen, right? Because even like, I think we quote that scripture a lot, but we don't meditate on the two creatures, the serpent and the dove. It's like, what is he talking about? If you pay attention to a serpent, a serpent is cunning. A serpent is not seen until it wants to be seen. A serpent is not loud, right? And neither is a dove. A dove is gentle. Not only is a dove gentle, it is not even in its nature. to be malicious, right, in any way. And so I think what God is saying, it's like, man, like, be, be cunning, be wise, be discerning.

You don't always have to be loud. You don't always have to be seen. And when a snake is seen, it's because he wants to be seen. And it's effective when it's seen. And so a lot of times we are just not effective because we just out and about or whatever. And so I think what you just said is just so much wisdom. And one of the ways in which I felt like the Lord, when the Lord started to improve me being an evangelist or me just being a light in people's lives around me is when I start to move with that particular wisdom, a wisdom that says, you know what? How can, how can I be more discerning in showing this person that their life and the way they live in their life is a little problematic?

what that might look like is God may lead you to be humble before them and to explain all the problematic ways in which you fell into sin so they can be receptive to when you correct them. And so I've even had times like that where, you know, because I think a lot of times people expect Christians to just rebuke, revuk, revuk. And we have this, you know, holier than doubt stands. And this is like, no, like even reminding somebody that, man, like,

no, I struggle with sin too. Not only am I going to tell you that I struggle with sin, I'm going to tell you the particular sin that I've struggled with and how it's still a wrestle and how I submitted to the Lord so they can be more receptive to you when you call out their sin. I also think that to back up a little bit, in praying and seeking wisdom, we don't want to stay there, right?

And so just because you pray doesn't mean that you also. don't address. Right. Because I think there is a time and a place for everything. There's a time to speak and there's a time to be silent. But I also think that the state of the person determines the wisdom in what you address, meaning how I address a person who is a believer about their sin is going to be different than how I address a person that's an unbeliever about their sin, right? because as a believer, they know God. They are filled with His Spirit.

There is the assumption that you already have the power to do right. So the way I address is as a sister, as a family member, it's, hey, you have confessed that you know him, that you love him, that you will serve him. Therefore, if I see these things, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot. Even Paul says, you know, like, bring it to your brother. if they don't repent, bring two or three, then bring it before. Like, there's a whole structure to how you address sin for a believer.

But the unbeliever, I'm not going to nitpick a particular sin. Like, oh, they curse all the time or all they gamble. They don't know him. Yeah. They don't know him. So the bigger issue isn't these individual sins. The bigger issue is how do I help this person know God? Yeah, that's actually one of my biggest pet peeves.

Go ahead. To be honest with you. Which is what? do not like when Christians complain about what the world does. When sinners a senate? Yeah, it's just like, didn't you act your nature out when you, before you came? This is like, like, I even had people on my YouTube video

say, Preston, they shouldn't be cursing in front of you. I'm talking to, I have a YouTube channel talking. Yeah. It's just like, you know, and I think that we just become so detached from our old names. you know, to the point where we feel like, you know, the world ain't gonna be the world. Yeah, yeah.

Like we're surrounded by unbelievers. And so the way I approach them is actually, I do, I put more energy into the big picture. Yeah, that's good. Putting Jesus before them, what he came to do and how he is calling them to himself. I'm not gonna, like, because I'm not, I'm not disciplining you in Jesus,

Jesus because you're not in him, but I am evangelizing you towards Jesus, which is to say, Hey. That's a good distinction. It's just, it's just so the way I navigate. But I wanted to read this verse when it comes to addressing sin because I think, I think if we could get this verse in our hearts, the way we do things would change. It's 2 Timothy. You're going to know what I'm reading.

Second Timothy 23 through 26. It says, have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies. you know that they breed quarrels. That should include all these social media accounts that are just controversial all the time. Heresy hunters. And the Lord's servant, the Lord's slave, Dulas, must not be quarrelsome, quarrelsome, argumentative,

always trying to have a fight over doctrine and over all the things, but kind to everyone able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance, leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses

and escape from the snare of the devil after being captured by him to do his will. Notice the character traits that Paul draws out when it comes to how we address sin, right? Not quarrelsome, kind, able to teach, patient, enduring, gentle, right? So that means that the way you address sin in the congregation or even with unbelievers

requires dependence of the Holy Spirit because gentleness is a fruit of the spirit. Kindness is a fruit of the spirit. Endurance is a fruit of the spirit. Like you can't do it in the flesh. Yeah, absolutely. It reminds me of 1st Peter 315 when it says, always be prepared to make a defense

of why you believe what you believe, but yet do it with gentleness and respect. And I think a lot of times people think, oh, this scripture is only referring to apologetics, but it's no, it's really just talking about be prepared to give the gospel, or prepare to give the reason why you believe what you believe. But if we don't have gentleness and respect and kindness,

we make the God that we talk about look like a liar. Right. And so, like, this is the reason why God in his scriptures has put sometimes more emphasis on how we say things other than what we say. Because, you know, people care. They don't care what you know until they know that you care. And so, like, our conduct and our behavior matters to the Lord.

It really does. It does. Because a lot of times people would be like, I just gave them the truth. Yeah, you gave them the truth in a garbage bag. Yeah. And you want them to accept it. It's like, take this truth. And it's like, no.

Because we be thinking we can abuse people towards Jesus. We have to understand that we fight against a real devil who wants to pervert how God has made us and wants us to be, wants us to give so much grace at times that we lack truth. Then wants to give us so much truth at times that we lack grace. I think Jesus and the gospel is the beautiful balance of both. And, you know, and yeah, so for me, like, I'm a direct person as well. You know, I'm not afraid to speak truth. But sometimes I can lack wisdom in when I say things.

And so also, too, like truth given at the wrong time can be just as harmful. And so my discipler, you know, our discipleer, told me like, Preston, you're Peter in a lot of ways. You are very impulsive. God has made you to speak truth, but he wants to give you, like, you don't naturally lean towards wisdom. You have fearlessness, but your fearlessness, I don't want you to mistake your fearlessness for boldness. That's good. Because boldness is not doing what men are afraid to do. boldness is about obedience.

Boldness is doing what God told you to do. And so for me, I just had to balance that. You know what I'm saying? I had to balance really, okay, Lord, I see something. Let me seek you so I can know how to say it. And so I think God wants to use you how He has uniquely made you. But I also think that God wants you to trust in him so you to clean up all that messiness. That's good.

Because I think that's what happens in our ministry. We operate and how God has uniquely made us. But if we don't submit that to him and give that to him, we just, we sloppy with it. Yeah. That's why I think it's good that to see the beauty in your temperament so that you don't try to become something you're not. Absolutely. You know, like there's beauty and goodness and your fearlessness. That's literally what the Lord intended.

But the sanctification process is God removed. moving the hindrances to his glory through your personality. That's good. And so for me, just as the Lord continues to purify and sanctify me, he's continuing to growing me in the clarity of my communication about truth, but also in love for people. That's good. So that as I walk in my natural temperament,

it's still like undergirded by the love of Jesus, that I don't naturally have. Speaking of temperaments, a common discouragement that I've seen among women and this might exist among men that I've just experienced is people feeling like to give the Great Commission to engage culture,

they put themselves in a category of how they can do that. So like one time, like we had a friend a long time ago when me and you and others used to do poetry all the time in Chicago, she felt like she wasn't as useful because she wasn't creative. Yeah. And like she was more administrative, more logistical.

And we was like, you gotta be a poet to be faithful. You know what I'm saying? But I see that often where it's like, oh, like I have to preach or I have to go out and give the gospel on the street where people miss. Like no, how has God made me? How has God gifted me? And where has God put me?

How do I engage? and give him glory with all of those. Yeah. What do you think about that? I was going to ask you. What do you think? Because I would love to hear, well, I can, I don't, I didn't want to speak for you, but I, like, I think looking at our own lives, like, the private lives that we have is a good example. Because, you know, I'm a poet, you know, I'm a speaker, your speaker, preacher, teacher, all of these things.

but I tell people all the time like I said before God will use you how he has uniquely made you and so like I think one way I see you you know being used in your private life and giving the gospel I think it's a good picture for people because you're not like me

you won't go up to a stranger and give them the gospel nope right anxiety anxiety right but I think that sometimes people taking over me yeah I think sometimes things this is why I'll be losing my thought

because she's always singing but I think sometimes people think that like you know I have to be evangelistic in this way right I have to be evangelistic like Preston like Preston does with evangelism videos I have to be evangelistic how like Jackie gives the gospel in her sermons and it's like no like are you being used how God has uniquely made you

I tell this story all the time of how when we was coming back from Virginia, I saw some Jehovah's Witnesses in the airport. And I'm like, yo, I feel, not only do I feel called, but I feel this compulsion, right? Because God made me like that. And so when I was like, Jackie, I'm going to go get the gospel to these Jehovah's Witnesses, you was like, okay, I'm going to go get some food. Right? Like, I didn't feel the need to be like, no, you're a Christian too.

Come with me. Sometimes I have encouraged you to do so. But it's like, no, like, that's just not your thing. I actually ended up getting in your way. Yeah. When I did it. Absolutely. But when I left, right, and, you know, found you at the, at the, at the, at the, at the restaurant, you were sitting there praying with the waitress. And I was like, wow. Come to find out, the lady, you know, asked you who you ordering food for. My husband, where's my husband? You know, way to talk to Jehovah's Witnesses. Oh, I came from a family of Jehovah's Witnesses, and they did X, Y, Z to me. He was able to share the gospel with her and pray with her.

And so you didn't seek out a conversation with Jehovah's Witnesses, but you didn't deny one either, right? And so a lot of times God is going to use you to be a pursuer, right? A lot of times God is going to use your gifts to be a preacher, right? But being an evangelist and being a disciple and making disciples is more about obedience than anything. Yeah, being ready. Being ready.

Yeah, yeah, because it's like, and I think that sometimes people look at it. at other people's gifts and feel this need to be what they are. And it's like, no, like, God made you unique and he's going to use you, you know. The question is, are you obedient? Yeah, that's good. Yeah,

I think, because you don't know how long I just carried a lot of anxiety and fear and discouragement because I thought that to be faithful, I had to be like other people. I think that

we missed the purpose of God creating a body. When he talks about how a toe can't be the knee and the knee can't be the shoulder. It's like, you know, he created us uniquely different for a reason. And so I think a lot of times a church might have a particular mission and they want everybody to conform to that mission. But I think what leadership has to do is leadership has to notice

the giftedness in certain people and cultivate that gift in them, right? So what I used to do when we co-led at a church in Chicago, I was the head of the evangelism team, right? When I started, I made everybody go out. Not because I felt like everybody was called to go out. I made everybody go out so I can notice who ain't. And so, yeah, you don't need to be out here.

I don't think that this is, you know, and as a leader, that was my job to be prayerful and to discern people's gifts. And so what we did because we co-led at a house church, I understood the people who had the gifts of hospitality. And so I was like, you know what? The people out here who are evangelists like me, they might not have the gifts of hospitality. And so when we give them the gospel to them, I know where they point them back to where they can be served in a different way.

That's good. Right. And so I think that if we understand that everybody is not called to serve in the same way, we won't be trying to force people to be an evangelist because we're an evangelist in the same way that we are at evangelists, but we're all created to make disciples. Yeah. And don't hear us saying that God won't make you uncomfortable. That's not what we're saying. No. Like there will be times where you have to play a role that you don't feel especially equipped for. There will be times where God will call you to obey him in a way that you don't feel like you're gifted for.

But the overall emphasis is there are also ways in which God has equipped you, gifted you, and placed you that actually serve the overall. overall call that he has on your life, identify that and walk in it. This episode is brought to you by Accenture. When your advertising operations fall out of sync, everything else follows. Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales, using automation, analytics, and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business. The result?

Less time spent on operations, more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most. Learn more at Accenture.com slash Spotify. At Desjardin Insurance, we know that when you own a nail salon, everything needs to be perfect from tip to toe. That's why our agents go the extra mile to understand your business and provide tailored solutions for all its unique needs. You put your heart into your company, so we put our heart into making sure it's protected. Get insurance that's really big on care. Find an agent today at Dejardin.com slash business cover. If people didn't know me, somebody could, like, let's say I didn't have a public ministry,

it could look like a cop out for me to say, I'm going to let my husband go do evangelism while I sit here on the sidelines, right? Yeah. But I do think that it's been interesting in our marriage to explore the distinctions between our gifts because I do evangelism. I just don't do it like you. Yes. And so that's really good.

So one of the things to that, I wanted to do a lot of things with this book, but one of the things that I wanted to do in this book is I wanted to destroy this idea that evangelism has to look one way. So I want to give people the freedom to know that God will use you how He has uniquely made you. Like, period. Like I think a lot of times we see people do evangelism and we think we have to do it that way. And so what I want people to know is that I'm not. teaching you how to do evangelism like Preston. Come on here. I don't want to create.

I opt out. Yeah, I don't want to create more me's. I want God to use you how he has uniquely made you. And one of the stories that I wrote in the book was when we were in the airport, leaving Virginia for your brother's retirement ceremony, I saw some of Jehovah's Witnesses in the airport. And I felt compelled to go talk to them. And there are people who feel compelled to talk to people from a

different religions or the loss in that way. And I was like, yo, Jackie, you want to, you know, I'm about to go talk to these Jehovah's Witnesses. And you was like, okay, I'm going to go get some breakfast. Peace. We better catch this flight. I will pray for them on the way back to Atlanta. Right. And you, and you left and got something to eat. And I think I told this before. I think we tell a lot of different, a lot of the same stories on our podcast. But what, what encouraged me is, was after I got done having the conversation with the Jehovah's Witnesses, I came and I saw, you with your head down praying with the waitress. And I'm like, okay, if my introverted wife is praying with somebody, it's for a reason, right?

Because like I said, you don't have conversations often like me. And afterwards, you was like, yeah, she was like, where your husband is, where's your husband? I say he's over there talking to Jehovah's Witnesses. You was like, yeah. She was like, yeah, I used to be a Jehovah's Witness, but they disown me, yada, yada, yada. and you were able to give her the gospel through that. And I use that story to encourage people to know that it's not about being like the evangelist that you see, but it's about being ready.

Like God will use those who are ready. And so you don't have to be like me. But the question is, are you ready? I tell people all the time, the moment you tell somebody that you are a Christian, you are an evangelist, the moment they start asking questions, you become an apologist. And the moment they're willing to follow you, you become a discipleship maker. And so I think that if we are going to share our faith, it looks different. But when we share our faith, know that we might have questions and then, you know,

apologetic conversations might have. And then when people are willing to follow us, I think that's how we can start making disciples. And so I want to just let people know, like, no, God is going to use you, how he has uniquely made you. And I'll talk about that a lot in this book. Because I think, I tell, I say this all the time. If you ever went to a workshop from me, I say that if we find our information, if we find our identity in the information we know and not the God we know that we will treat people like projects and not image bears. And so I do think that there is, that there is helpful methods, right?

But if we try to use the same method with every single person, it stops to be, it's not as effective. Yes. I'll say. And so one of the things that I want to teach people is, man, when we go out, we really do have to be sensitive to the Holy Spirit and how we should approach each person. But also, too, you still have to have a general understanding of the different type of people that you, that you talk to. For example, when I talk to an atheist because an atheist has a high emphasis on intellect and reason, I have to drive another vehicle to get to the same destination. But when I talk to somebody who worshipped her ancestors,

especially a lot of black women in Atlanta and a lot of our inner cities or whatever, the main component that drove them to their worldview is hurt and pain and rejection and feeling like they're being stripped of power. And so they're trying to gain some type of dignity. And so me just, so quick example, like when I talked to the lady who worshipped her ancestors or whatever, the first thing that I thought about was all the scriptures that dealt with ancestry or worship, when she told me she worship her ancestors. But as I was talking to her, I felt like the Lord was saying, Preston, she knows all this.

She just hate what she knows. Yeah. She just hate what she knows. Right? And so now I have to find a different vehicle to get to the gospel. Right? And so I started to ask her, what has? happen, you know, that you come from the Christian church. And so asking good questions will allow you

to get to that destination, you know. And so I think you have to discern, but I don't believe in you using the same methods with every single person, right? Because I think that every person that you talk to has a cry. Yeah. You just have to ask the right questions to hear it. Yeah. Right. Jude actually kind of recommends that in the book of Jude, which I have a Bible study on, by the way, I'd be forgetting I did that. But he begins his letter telling people to contend for the faith. Right, right. The faith, meaning the essential fundamental doctrines that make up Christianity, contend for it, fight for, wrestle about it, right? But then he shows us towards the end one of the ways we apply that, which is we apply these truths and different ways.

ways depending on the need of the person. You can be bold and be loving. And I think that love actually is the root of boldness. I don't think boldness is the source of going out and making disciples or evangelizing and apologetic. I really do think it's love. Primarily love for God and love for neighbor. Because I think love makes you selfless.

You know what I'm saying? Because if I'm out and about teaching or whatever the case may be, if I'm like turned in on myself, that means I want security, I want safety, I want to relax, I want to chill. Like, ministry is everything other than that. You know what I'm saying? Like ministry, you got to die to yourself. You got to care about people. You got to ask questions. You got to think about them. You got to discern. You got to pray. You got to do all the stuff. And so like, what does it look like for somebody to love people in their evangelism? Does it make sense what I'm saying? Because let me, let me share it this way. We watch this.

clip one time of somebody giving the gospel at, I don't know if it was playing parenthood, but it was some type of abortion situation. Yeah. And you say how the woman said that she was raped. And what did the evangelist do? The evangelist was like, so shoot your baby died just because you were raped? And I was like, oh, man, did he really just dropped that ball? He did.

And I think he thought that was boldness, though. Yeah, yeah, because I think, I think boldness without the spirit just makes us fools. And I think boldness without the spirit makes us insensitive. And I do think that there's a possibility to do more damage with speaking if it isn't done with Christ-like love. Which is the reason why the Bible tells us, because even when we think about First Peter, can we go back there real quick? it says always be prepared to make a defense. And, you know, which that's what the Greek word apologetics comes from. You know, Apology means to make a defense.

And I think a lot of people park there. I need to be prepared to give a defense. And so they only focus on argumentations. That's good. Right? And so they only park at the argumentation part. But then they ignore the rest of the sentence when it said, but do it with gentleness and respect. That part.

Having a good conscience so when those revile your good behavior in Christ maybe put to shame, right? Because what people have to understand is if you give somebody the gospel or if you give somebody the truth in a garbage bag and not on a dignifying platter, they didn't reject the truth. They just rejected the way you gave it to him. And so when she rejected him, you know, he called her out for rejecting the gospel. I pray you repent, repent, and my heart for you, whatever. But it's like, no, like, she just literally gave you her story on a platter. And then you wrapped up the truth. You gave her the truth, but you put it in a garbage bag full of trash and you said, take it. And it's like, no. Like,

and so First Peter 315 lets us know that we always have to be prepared to give a defense, but the way we give it to it, but the way we give it to people matters. Yeah. It matters to God. And so this is the reason why I named the book, to be honest with you, how to tell the truth with the assistance of my beautiful wife. Who came up with that name? You did. You did. Because literally, Jackie came up with the name because that's what the heart, that's, like, that's what the book is about. That's the heart of the book.

It's like, how can we learn how to give people the truth, but in a dignifying way that's palable so they can receive it. Because if we have the truth and if we know the truth, how can we give it to it in a way that, that people can accept it. I kind of want you to explain this verse a little bit more. I'm going to read it and I'm going to ask you a question. First Peter 315 says, but in your heart, honor Christ the Lord is holy,

always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and respect. What would it look like for an evangelist to honor Christ the Lord as holy? Like what does that actually mean? Yeah, that's good. That's good.

Well, one, I think context matters. Okay. Peter is talking to the persecuted church. Okay. He's talking to people who have been persecuted, right? And so one, he's talking to people who might be confused about why you're even still a Christian, right? Be prepared. People are going to ask you questions, right?

And so I think, you know, when people ask you questions, sometimes they might disagree. And so then there will be kind of an argument, you know, confrontation. there, right? But it's really about just being prepared, right? And so I think what to answer your question, in your hearts, right? I think it's very important for us to understand that that scripture first starts off with a heart issue, not an intellectual issue. It doesn't start, it doesn't say in your mind. It doesn't say with your thought process. It says in your heart. And so apologetics is a heart issue, not a mind issue. So that's the first thing that we have to understand that Peter is addressing the heart in your hearts honor Christ the Lord right and so one if you

like it's a reason why he said honor Christ right so if you believe that Jesus is the Christ the Messiah right you should be prepared to give a defense of why he is that right which brings me back to what I said earlier is that people will acknowledge that Jesus existed but they will deny his deity my God right and so if if if our hearts want to honor the Lord, we then have to defend the fact that he is the Christ, that he is Lord over all our bodies, the way we show up, how we treat people, how we use our money, he's a Lord of all. We have to be able to defend that and to tell the world why he's Lord of all and not just Lord over me, but Lord over you too, right? And then we have to honor him

as holy, sacred, right? And so he then starts off. Then he ends was saying, but do it with gentleness and respect, he goes back to conduct. So look, this defense part is literally sandwiched with a heart that honors the Lord. And then it goes to the defense.

That's the meat. And then it goes back to conduct, right? That's the other part of the bun. But yeah, but do it with gentleness and respect. And so I think when an evangelist and an apologist goes out there, it's like, man,

how can I honor the, to Lord, how can I honor God as Christ as Lord, as holy in a way that gives him, that gives him honor while dignifying the people that he created? And so I don't think that we, a lot of times I think we drop the ball. I think that we want to honor the Lord at the expense of boo-boing on people. And God is saying, that's actually not honoring me. Because you're actually making the gospel look like a liar with the way you give it. And so if you give people the truth, but on a garbage bag Yeah

Right They can still walk away Not believe in your message Because the way you gave it to them And so that's I think that's what First Peter Is letting us know Like you

You you gave them a reason To reject truth Because you were a jerk And so we have to figure out How to tell the truth In a way that gives people Not an excuse to reject it at all Right

And so I think that's what I'm trying to teach people in the book. I imagine that sometimes it's hard for people because your family, they know you. They know where you came from. They even know what you still struggle with. How would you encourage people who they ain't got no issue giving the gospel to people at school or at work? But when it comes to their parents,

when it comes to their siblings, when it comes to their cousins, it actually is just more difficult. Yeah, quick story. That's a good question, babe. Quick story. when I came to the Lord, I was led to Christ by an evangelist. And so I got out there and I started sharing the gospel fast.

When I first became a Christian, people thought I was the boldest little thing that you've ever seen. Like I was telling everybody about Jesus. But the first time I went to my first family reunion, I was a coward. I grew up with 16 boy cousins. and God quickly showed me that that no,

you still want to fit in in this space. You don't want, you don't want to create this awkward environment. You don't want your cousins to think that you think that you're better than them.

And I knew they all heard that I had changed and I still wanted to fit in. I didn't, I didn't know how to, how to give the gospel to them. And, God quickly showed me that it's nothing wrong with having cowardly moments at times.

Just don't die that way. Just don't die a coward. That's terrible way to die. Yeah, yeah. Because the Bible says that coward won't inherit the kingdom of God, right? Because a coward, when a coward is who you are, it's impossible for the Lord to use you. And it's impossible for the Lord. It's impossible for you to see the Lord when you're a coward because you're only thinking about yourself. You're only thinking about your own comfort. And it's hard for you to even think about the

will of the Lord, let alone people. Right. And so God had to quickly correct me, you know, and I think God freed me when it came to giving the gospel to my family members when he showed me that everything doesn't have to look the same. I don't have to go in the first time I see my cousin say, man, let me sit down. I'm going to show you how to repent. I didn't have to do that, right? Because sometimes we see Jesus doing both. We see Jesus giving the gospel and revealing himself to the woman at the well. That was evangelism. Yes.

Right? But we see people, we see Jesus walking with his disciples, having a relationship with people. That's also in some ways evangelism, right? And so we see that it looks different, right? And so with the family members, a lot of times it's a slow cook. Like I think a lot of times we want to try to fry fish before we catch it. And this is like, no. Like if you're like, if you're around your family members and you live a life that's worthy of the gospel,

natural conversations will pop up. Right. And so I had this pressure when I first became a Christian to go around my family members and to and to always think like, how can I give them the gospel? What if they do this? What if they do that? And it's just like, no, God was like, no, just go amongst them and live. Just go amongst them and live and be ready when they have questions. And so that freed me.

And I saw that I was a coward because I was overthinking. Interesting. I was I was just overthinking a lot, right? But I do think that there is a natural fear of losing friends and family members because of what you believe. Yeah. That's just a natural fear. But at the same time, one thing I'll say this, and I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, in this little rant.

What God has shown me through the years is people might, people might have a problem with what you believe. But when lifestyle life in, if you are consistent, they'll double back and come back around. And so one of my close cousins hated the fact that I was a Christian. will ask me questions like, man, like, you feel like your Christian people,

more your family than we is, I saved your life multiple times. Like, I wrote about it in the book. Like, he was upset, right? And I told him, I was like, man, I love you, but I can't ride with you like I used to ride. I don't believe what you believe. I don't believe that, you know,

Christianity is the white man's religion, yada, yada, yada. And when life started life in, when he went through relationships, relationships problems. When he got arrested, guess who he came to? You? He came to me. And so I think that should encourage people to know that it might be rocking in the beginning. But if you live a life worthy of the gospel, you ain't got to, you ain't got to force the gospel down people's throat. They'll come back to you. Well, first of all, like back in that day, I mean, you had some Chicago fame, I guess, some local fame. But you're not, you weren't pressed in Perry as you are now, right?

but whether or not you had a stage or a platform, you know, my heart was, here's a young individual who needs community, who needs discipleship, who needs pastoral care. And so, you know, so again, whoever you were, you know, I think God has given me a burden to see young people. And I think of Jesus when he saw Simon Peter, he says, you are Simon, the son of John, but you shall be Peter, right? And we all need somebody, and I had this in my life when I was younger, somebody who could see the potential in us that we can't see ourselves. Yeah.

And be able to walk with us to that fruition, to that sanctification point. And so that was my whole heart in the relationship is just, man, here's an individual who needs to be fine-tuned, who needs continued walking with. And man, was I rough around the edges? Oh my goodness. Like I think, you know, your discipleship has really helped me throughout the years because back then I was, I had this zeal.

I had this passion for the Lord, but I was very reckless at the mouth. I was very still rough around the edges. And I think that you just came in at such a pivotal time and just begin to help mold and shape me and disciple me into like a mature believer. And then, you know, just to get people context for you really good. quickly before we go on to like the next thing. It's like, man, when I came into your life, it shocked me how many men you were disciplining. Like, so, uh, not she's not Jackie, Heidi, his wife, Heidi and, um, Brian, they live in the heart of the west side on one of the worst

blocks on the west side of Chicago. Um, and I think when you guys first moved in, somebody shot in your house, a bullet almost hit Heidi. And you dedicated your life to praying for that block. And they lived there on purpose. And they lived there on purpose. And they lived there on purpose. Like they, you know, they chose to live on this block on purpose. And they don't have children of their own, right? And so they just dedicated their life to just taking in young men for years. And so as long as we've known them, I mean, I can't even count how many young men from the block or from the neighborhood or from other neighborhoods in Chicago that has lived in your house. And so when I came and saw that from me, it was just, it took Christianity, it took Christianity to a, like, Christianity to a,

another level for me. It was like transformational for me because I was like, man, Christians actually dedicate their whole lives to the dedication of disciplining others. And I was like, this is the guy that I was running from the whole time. I was like, no, like this is his heart, you know? And so I just thought, you know, you was fascinating. And so you just came into my life in such a, such a pivotal time to help mold me and shake me. Yeah. What I was appreciated about you, Preston, though, is in the midst of your your rough edges, whatever, there was a desire to learn, to grow, to be challenged. Yeah.

And so I think that's what a lot of times we miss when we're investing in people. We look for the finished product. We look for the person who's fully made into a disciple, right? And we don't see the potential in the midst of the shadows, you know? We all have strengths and shadows, and they're really just two sides of the same coin. our shadow. So, you know, you're a bold person, right? And so the, when, when our sin nature corrupts that boldness, it, it comes out as brashness. It comes out as hurtful. It comes out as not thinking before we, we talk, so forth, right?

You always call me Peter. Yeah. But when it's sanctified, right? Now you're, you're speaking truth in a way that falls on on ears that are ready to listen to it because it's it's coming with love and grace and compassion and so forth that's good um so again it's been great just in the i mean we're talking 20 years of seeing this continue god doing a work in you the holy spirit doing a work in you uh to make it into the man you are you are now that's encouraging man you're i'm encouraged i uh me and president we're talking about just our relationship with you this morning And I was saying how, I think the early part of my walk, there was someone who helped me to know how to be a disciple.

And then Melody, Fabian, she just taught me how to be a wife and a mother and a friend. And I think you have taught me how to be a leader. Because when I started to work under you, you just, first of all, the reason I even came to Chicago in the first place. We got to tell the story. Because Brian texted me and was like, do you, want to, would you want to work in Chicago or the nonprofit or something like that? And I'm like, I'm not going to leave St. Louis. It's like for why. And then I feel like you gave me the salary.

And I said, I will pray about it now. But I didn't know that behind this, I guess Preston and Brian had been having conversation and Preston had been praying that God would send me to Chicago. Yeah. And Jackie, we're working at Wendy's. You were flipping burgers. I learned a lot about mostly asking at Wendy's. Preston started talking about you, right? And like, I'm interested in this girl that's been my friend and people know the story. And so I needed a position field. And so I was like, oh, let's offer a position.

I think it's absolutely crazy that you put me in that position. You put me in a position to be a leader over this swath of women. Mind you, every single one of them were older than me. I didn't know what I was doing. What's crazy is, and this is the reason I tell people, discipleship and good leaders is so pivotal in the body. of Christ because the people are like, how you and Jackie become good leaders? I really think what a leader job is to do is to help cultivate you, but they have to

see something in you that you don't see in yourself. And so I was working at Radio Shack. You were working at Wendy's. This guy, you know what I said? I go to him and be like, yo, he's just started to disciple to me. I just let him in. I'm like, yo, not only, you know, do I like you, but I, you know, not like that, right? But I like this girl.

Why would we even think that was. Because I was talking about how. I like you intimately and I don't want nobody to get it twisted, right? I was like, I like this girl named Jackie Hill. You's like, yeah, the poet. And I was like, yeah. I was like, I really think God is calling me to pursue her. And he was like, I can see how God is calling you yada, yada, yada to that, to her.

I'm going to offer her a job. And so you offer her a job. That's insane. That's the Lord, right? You offer her a job to Chicago. You know what I mean? And then you see something in her. you put her over the the women's branch of the organization to mentor mentors and then you

freaking make me like the evangelist kind of like person in the church and I'm like and so I said it to say this like I feel like you saw something in us that we didn't see in ourselves when I was working at Radio Shack and she was working at Wendy's and I think that's how we kind of like you know saw that God was calling us to greater I think and so that's just dope I never would have you know pursued her in that way if she didn't. never went came to Chicago. So Matthew 28, go therefore make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit teaching, them to obey all that I commanded you, lo, I will

be with you into the end of the age. That's like a mission statement, I think, for your approach to ministry. Do you mind explaining that text for us? Yeah, yeah. So obviously, I think we all know this is Jesus went to the cross. He died, was buried for three days, and early Sunday morning, he rose again, right? And now he starts to appear to the disciples, to the women, women disciples first, and then to the male disciples. He tells the 11 male disciples that were left, right, to meet him on the mountain in Galilee,

which is a three-day walk from Jerusalem where they were, right? And so they journey there and Jesus gives them his last words, his words before he departs, are those words, right? And the emphasis, the crux of it is to make disciples. And, you know, I always use the illustration, like, most of us don't like to make food from scratch, make a meal from scratch. We like to go Uber eats it or go to restaurant and enjoy someone else's labor. And that's how I feel like a lot of churches do. We look for disciples.

We search for disciples rather than do the work that entails. to make them, right? But Jesus, that's what Jesus does. For three years, he invests his life into these individuals that will go and grow the church. And in there you have, I mean, you have blue-collar workers, you have fishermen, right, not highly educated. You have a thug, Simon the zealot. You have James and John who were like brash, want to cast down fire from heaven. So these weren't like the cream of the crop. These were people, again, whom Jesus said, I see what's in you, and I will bring it out of you, right? And so he walks with them for three years, and now he calls them to do the same thing with others, right?

So go make disciples. Go, go find people who aren't disciples yet and shape them, walk with them, invest in them, teach them, you know, live life. That you kind of alluded to that when it says, baptize the idea is more than just dunk someone in water. But it's this idea of you immerse people in the character of God. The way you do that is by opening up your life for them so that they could see God in you. Give us the pickle illustration. So we all.

Pickle illustration. You know, if you grow up in the hood, you love pickles, right? Maybe in some other contexts, they look like cucumbers. But they're the same thing, really. But this guy named Nkandor wrote a recipe of how to make pickles, 150 years before Jesus was born, but he wrote it in Greek. And so there's a lot of clues in it. And so he says you take a cucumber.

He says baptoe it. You dip it in water, right? So that's the word when Jesus says, the one who dips his hand in the bowl with me is the one who's going to betray me. So you wash the cucumber to get the dirt off it, right? It becomes moist for a little bit. But eventually, if you just put it back on the tables, you can get dry again. It's still going to be a cucumber, right?

But then he says you baptize it. That's the Greek word baptize, right? You baptizele it in vinegar solution. So you let a soak there for days, you know? And now it starts to take on the object that it's in, that is submerged in, right? And now you take that object out and it's no longer a cucumber. It's been changed, right? The oldest past, the newest has come.

it doesn't taste like a cucumber anymore. It doesn't smell like a cucumber anymore. That's my story. That's my story. So spending the time, right? Now, Jesus also says teach, right? So there's three commands there is go, right? So as we're going, be active and making disciples, right, wherever we go to the gym.

So it's not necessarily about adding things to your schedule. A lot of times what me and Preston would do is just, you know, A, I'm going to run here, come with me. You know, Jackie, me and you, we grabbed lunch together, right, and had a staff meeting. So as you go and make disciples, right, and you do it by, again, baptized by immersing yourself in the lives of other people, and then you do it by teaching, right? Now you open into scriptures and you explain what people are seeing in your life. Why do you care? Why do you love? Why do you sacrifice? Why do you serve? Right? Well, this is why. Yeah, talk about that. Talk about the dynamics of

of knowing how to, like, lead people well when you're disciplining them? It's, you guys have three kids who are, four kids, three kids. Four. Four kids. Four kids. Who are very different, I'm sure. Right. And so it's in the same way, you know, education world, you call it an individualized education plan, right? Some kids need to learn through rope memory.

Other kids need to be active. Other kids need a discussion about something. So in the same way, I call it IDP, right, individualized discipleship plan. So you got to know the individual and know how to best approach them, how to best speak to them, how to best engage them, so forth. First that's only as 514 says, we urge your brothers, admonish the idol, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with them all. That's good. So when someone's just being lazy, you know, it's like, okay, I need to give them a little push or her little push, right? Like, hey, you need to spend time of the Lord. You need to date your spouse, right? You

need to do X, Y, and Z. But then if I ammonish the faint harder, that's going to crush them, right? Because they want to do what's right, but they're just, they're, it's failed so many times before, right? And they just need to be encouraged in it. And then help the week, right? Some people just don't know, right? So, okay, let's let's talk about it. You know, let's talk about how to love your spouse. Let's talk about how to study the scriptures and so forth. So I don't want to beat you up with something you don't know already, right? That's good.

But be patient with them all, right? And it takes time. It took Jesus three years, spending 24 hours with his disciples. So the thought that we could disciple someone to help someone grow in a matter of weeks or in a matter of days is foolish. That's good. When you look at, you've been in Christ, how long? 30 years?

Yeah, 30 plus. When you look at ministry, like discipleship in churches and in communities, when you are an earlier believer and look at it now, would you say that encouraging a discipleship culture is harder now? Yeah, I think, you know, social media obviously kind of builds within people, this shock culture. It's like what gets the likes, what gets the likes? what gets the attention. Discipling people doesn't get that, right? And so you're literally teaching people how to be patient, how to be, you know, long-suffering, how to walk with people. And so I've, you know, disciple, however many people over, you know, 30 years of my life, when people look at it like a

Billy Graham, let's say, right, who's led hundreds of thousands of people to the Lord, it seems more significant, right? That's more sexy. Or the person, again, who has 100,000 YouTube followers or whatever, right? It looks like bigger, right? But what gets me is God always works slowly, it appears, throughout history, right? He always chooses the low, the weak, you know, and he's patient with them, and he walks with him, he endures with them.

And so Jesus could have came down and been the biggest pop star, you know? He could have came today and had the biggest social media following. He chose not to. He chose to come at a time where, you know, we didn't have phones, you know. And he simply again walked with 12 people for three years and then he said, Deuce, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

That's deep. And those 12 people help, you know, spread the gospel throughout the whole earth. Yeah. And I don't want to, you know, obviously you guys have a platform and stage and so forth. So, you know, I've told you guys in private before, you know, the national, right, needs to follow the local, right? What starts in the home needs to spread out, right? And so it's cool to have it the national platform, the broad reach and so forth.

But when Jesus, and I think is Luke 5, the crowd is pressing into Jesus to hear the Word of God, it says that Jesus saw two fishermen cleaning their nets. And he goes, he leaves the crowd and goes to them. And he tells him, hey, let me get in your boat. And he pushes out, he teaches the crowd for a little longer. But then he pushes out with those two, which are Andrew and Peter. And that's where he goes, right? It's like, okay, there's a time for the crowd, but then there's a time, okay, let me observe who's in the crowd.

That's good. And let me identify one or two that I could go deeper with. Yeah, yeah. That's deep. Brian probably hates this because he feels like we gasped. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no. But a pastor came over here Sunday and met Jackie for the first time, you know, we chopped it up. We kicked it.

And he was like, and this is, I'm not telling this story to big up me and Jackie would make us look important. I'm really not. But one of the things he said was he was like, how are y'all so grounded? He was like, how are y'all so normal being that you guys have like a platform and all of this stuff, yada, yada, yada. And then Jackie, I was going to respond to say the same thing, but Jackie responded first. And she was like, honestly, we would disciple well.

And, you know, she was like our pastor Brian died, like literally disciple, disciple us well in humility. And what I love about the way you disciples us well in humility and what we told the pastor is I think sometimes people try to disciple you in humility by trying to be your Holy Spirit, right? Which means, like, you don't want to be the Holy Spirit and nobody else's life except that the area of the area of humility. It's like, you don't want to be the, you don't want to help me try to, you know,

make me manage my money well and all that. You know what I mean? You want to make sure I don't fall in pride. But with you, it was like a, it was like a real genuineness to, to see us love the Lord, to love his people, and to not be haughty because of the,

the platform that God has given us a steward. And I remember when we first started doing the PIA tour, it was me, Jackie, Joe Solomon or whatever. And we all, you know, went to the church. And we would come home Monday, Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Wednesdays and Thursdays, we would go back on a row for the tour. And every single Monday, you did a heart check with us. And you would just remind me of the things that was important. You know, you were, you would say, are you dating Jackie? Are you loving your wife? Are you in your scripture? Are you thinking that you're more than what you are, you know.

And so you just reminded me And so I think what you did was You were able to instill good character in me Because you had good character Yeah You were able to instill good character in me Which I think in so many ways Has preserved us

And I think because that has preserved us I think God has given us more Right And so I think Just the fruit of your discipleship Has helped us just to be grounded in a way that is, I don't know, that, yeah, I can't even really explain it. I think the fruit of your discipleship in our life has really rooted me.

Like, I feel rooted. It's saved our lives. Yeah. Yeah, and I don't mean that to be exaggerative. I think pride is destructive. Yeah. and satanic and isolating and unhelpful and joyless. But it's easy and it's convenient.

And I think we have so much context and so much teaching and so much of an example for why it's not worth it. To exalt yourself. With The Perry's is produced by The Perrys with support from Amanda Reed and Channing McBride, video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley, edited by the team at Tread Lively artwork by Hobb.

Thank you for listening. Now go with God. Hey y'all, it's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture online and wonder what if? Like, what if it doesn't hold up? That sofa was four days old. You should have ordered from Wayfair. With Wayfair, there's no what if.

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