With The Perrys - Discipling Kids in a Sexually Broken World With Laurie and Matt Krieg

Episode Date: October 20, 2025

Even thinking about engaging in a conversation with kids about sexuality can feel scary, but Laurie and Matt Krieg have a heart to help parents approach the topic without fear. The Kriegs join Jackie and Preston to discuss moving beyond the shame-filled messages of purity culture – what was a “theology of no” – instead to a theology of goodness and flourishing. They talk about being your child’s “anchoring bias” – the first voice a child hears on these topics – and why it’s so important to respond like Jesus when your child is exposed to something online or confesses.  Laurie and Matt also share about a new video series called “Raising Kids,” created with other thought leaders including Jon Tyson, John Mark Comer, Preston Sprinkle, and the Perrys, among many others. This 8-part video series is designed for parents of kids 12 and under, covering topics such as porn prevention, body safety, gender, and belonging. https://courses.christian-sexuality.com/courses/raising-kids   Check out Laurie and Matt’s upcoming book, Raising Wise Kids in a Sexually Broken World: A Gospel-Centered Approach, releasing January 2026: https://www.amazon.com/Raising-Wise-Sexually-Broken-World/dp/1514012146 Scripture references: Psalm 88:1-5 Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey y'all, how are you? Hope you're blessed. Hope you're happy. Hope you're good. Hope you're great. Hope you're, even if you're not happy, you might actually be really sad today. I hope you brush your teeth today.

If you're not, you know, handle that. Yeah, if you're full of despair, I understand what that's like. Sometimes you just got to read Psalm 88, you know what I'm saying, and realize like, hey, even David was sad. You know what I'm saying? That was so random.

But you'd read salam today? I did not. That might be the Holy Ghost. Because sometimes we got it. I love how human the Bible is that I can, have you ever read some 88? Hold on, let's take a second. Oh my goodness.

Just real quick, real, real, real quick. Real, real quick. Sometimes I feel like you don't want to get ADD. I don't. I am being led, I believe, by the spirit. He said, I ain't going to read the whole thing. Oh, Lord God of my salvation, I cry out day and night before you, let my prayer come before you, incline your ear to my cry.

He said, for my soul is full of troubles. And my life draws near the shio. I am counted among those who go down to the pit. I am a man who has no strength. Like one set loose among the dead. Like the slain that lying in the grave. You know how dramatic that is? That is dramatic.

But you know what I thought about? How great of an apologetic, the intellectual and the theological honest, honest the Bible is. Like, David was very honest. He was like, I want to die then. For sure. And so, like, it's not sugarcoding anything. And I love that. It's not David.

I'm sorry. I don't want to lead you all the story. But it's also like, this is a song that they sing in. You get them saying, oh, Lord, God of my salvation, I cry all day and night before you, let my prayer come before you cry for my soul is full of troubles and my life draws near the shield. I am counted among those who go down to the pit. None of those CCM songs sound like that.

None of them. All of them are joy, joy, happy, happy, happy. And it's just like they're not even mirroring the, the Psalms half of the, you know. So you're saying that we need more lament. We need more songs that give us space for our grief. Yes. The Bible does give us room to say we need to learn how to properly lament in healthy ways. Life can be sad.

I'm sad, Lord. We serve a God who is a man of sorrows acquainted with grief. I don't know how we got there. I don't know either. But I am saying. I'm pretty sure I was helping somebody. I'm just saying, if you woke up today and you were sad and you were heavy and you are disheartened, don't think it's strange. If you brush your tea, if you might feel better,

though. And if you don't, it's okay. You know what I'm saying? I'm just saying, read the scriptures, know that even if the Holy Spirit inspired people to write their grief down, then that says that God is still with you in your grief. That's actually, he's still with you in your depression. He's still with you in your sadness. Hey, y'all. Hey. You know what, one thing I love. I'm sorry. Every time we have guests and we do a little banter, seeing them trying to hold it in. That's actually very funny.

They were smiling. She was like, we be going to laugh. All right, we got Matt and Lori Krieg here. Clap it up. So, Matt and Lori, I don't like, I don't like personally when I listen to podcast

and they do a whole lot to tell us about yourself stuff because genuinely people don't care like that. If they want to know, Google them. Yeah. Go on Instagram, go on Wikipedia. We're going to get straight to the nitty-gritty, which y'all got a book coming out. Tell us the title. It's called Raising Wise Kids in a Sexually Broken World, a Gospel-Centered approach.

Woof. Yeah. What makes y'all qualify to write it? I mean, it's got to be the Lord, right? But I've been in the sexuality conversation helping to equip the church with a gospel-centered view of marriage and sexual. sexuality for over 10 years. Matt is a licensed mental health therapist. You can, what do you do?

You should have chived in on Psalm 88, sir. Yeah, right. Yeah, lament. I mean, we have a whole chart of psalms that are lament psalms that I like to refer clients to. But yeah, I'm a mental health therapist and, I mean, still don't feel like I'm completely qualified to talk about parenting because it's terrifying for all of us. Wow.

But your specialty in therapy is? sexuality and marriage That's crazy Wow We need to talk When y'all got married Did y'all imagine this for yourselves? No

Like what did y'all think y'all would be doing? I did have a sense in high school I felt the Lord was calling me to speak and write But I did not want to talk about human sexuality at all I didn't know there were seasons in my story Where I never thought I'd get married Let alone have kids Let alone help parents

with their own kids. And so God just qualifies us, doesn't he? Did you guys feel led to go in this direction when you start having children? Or was it your relationships with other grownups that inspires you to want to help children? It was two years ago. I was journaling and I can only tell you

it just felt like this overwhelming burden from God that he laid on me. if it could have been tangible, it would have been tangible. I would have seen it, but I felt it. And it was God's heart for parents right now. There's so much misinformation. There's so many. Try Googling Christian sexuality kids.

You're going to get 95 different things. Probably most of them are heretical. And so I had such a burden, and it felt like the Lord was like, hey, Lori, I love you. Thanks. I love you. I have given you this ministry, your story, your husband, and these kids. Wow. Will you steward them to help equip other parents? And it really was an invitation, but it was such a burden from God, but a kind and invitation that were just dumb enough and smart enough to say yes to Jesus. Yeah, that's dope.

Yeah. That's dope. Well, before we started to tape, we had a quick question or a quick conversation about purity culture. Yeah. Because you have this book, equipping parents to disciple and help their children in this sexual, perverse, nasty, but, you know, generation where it's a lot of options on how to scratch some itches, right? And you were talking about how, like, purity culture could affect even how parents view the book, the resource, or even, even, their willingness to engage in just speaking about sexuality and stuff like that. And me and Preston were saying we weren't raised in church. So I didn't even know the phrase purity culture until I came to faith.

And then I saw that people weren't fans. So like even the book that people don't like, what's that book? There's a lot of books that people don't like. Are kids stating goodbye? Yeah. I read it when I was getting disciple and I read it through the lens of, oh, okay, this is going to help me like make wise decisions. Right.

And then I saw like, oh, people don't like this. And I was just confused because I wasn't shaped and framed by this purity culture thing. And so I guess tell us what purity culture is and how that could affect the way people even engage in this conversation. Right. Do you want to start? Well, I mean, I'm going to let you talk because I think as a guy, I got a different message about purity culture that was just not as pronounced as the one that women tended to have received growing up in the same cultures. What they tell you?

Well, I mean, it was like, hey, don't do those things, but it wasn't, like, don't have sex. Don't, you know, do any of the approaches towards sexuality. Don't do foreplay stuff like with your girlfriend. But there was also like still the acknowledgement that we know you're going to want to do those things. And so, like, having a draw toward them was still somewhat acceptable. I feel like, at least with the women I've talked to in my office, like there was, was much more of a pronounced, like you're not supposed to think about it, want to do anything,

until you get married. Then it's your responsibility to care for your husband's purity. That was a really damaging message, was exactly that one, is women are responsible for male lust. That wasn't the primary message of purity culture. Purity culture was really, I think, a sort of a reaction to seeing divorce statistics, to seeing, you know, there's a ton of promiscuity, and Christians were like, oh, my goodness, God created. sex and it's good. So they were saying that. But let's save it for marriage. But I, if there's one critique I have of it, is it was very horizontally based, at least the version I heard, is it was very based on don't do this, do this. If you're good, is a version of the health and wealth

gospel. If you're good, you're going to have an awesome marriage with perfect sex and perfect everything. Not only marriage was promised to you, but like perfect sex in marriage if you're good. So singleness wasn't really a thing. Singleness wasn't a viability. You pray for your husband when you're like five years old. You start praying for your husband. Yeah. Wow.

What were the consequences on the flip side? What were the consequences if you were not good? That if you did engage in that, what kind of messages were taught? It was like you were a piece of chewed up bubble gum or you're a piece of tape. you keep sticking. It's meant to stick to this other side, but the more you stick or you sleep around, you know, it's the other tape. It's going to get dirty and ugly and bad. So then, let's say you're trying to follow Jesus as best as you can with this sort of messaging, you start to interpret. I, if you do these things, that you're dirty and bad. And you can

become pure again. You know, you can pray about it and become redeemed. Like, I don't think anyone who is a leader in that field would be like, yes, we love legalism and we wanted everyone to hate themselves. No one would say that. that. But that was some of the subliminal messaging. But some of the overt messaging, like Matt said, that was very challenging. I know in our marriage, especially our version of marriage, if I can be so blunt, is women are responsible for male lust. And if they struggle with porn, that's your fault. If they look at someone else, that's your fault. So that, at least to me, felt more overt. That was a part of it because it's supposed to be perfect, but there's a lot of weight on women and men.

What that does to men too is it treats you like animals. Yeah. Yeah. You can't help it. So if you have a book training parents to disciple help their children when it comes to sexual stuff, what makes what you're giving different. Do you want to start? I mean, the hope is that it's rather than being, you know, reactive to culture, it's really trying to find out like what is, is that yes? What is the reason for God's creation of sex? What is the foundational goodness that we can really start to instill at a younger age so that as they get older, as they're growing and developing interests or whatever, there's already that foundational theology around it that you can build on rather than learning on the playground or from porn or from movies or whatever that parents are being seen as a violence. resource and hopefully the first resource for their kids. If I was to do one main critique of purity culture, it would be their eyes were too small. They were too focused on the don't do this, do this, and then you'll have a good life.

I find so many people, maybe you guys see this too, don't know what the gospel is. Yeah. We don't even know why we're on the stinking planet, why God created. us what we're here for, and that factors into God's call on our life for marriage, for singleness, how we steward our sexuality for gender. Like, that's the one critique I would give to purity culture is, do we understand the gospel? And all of it flowing from God's beautiful vision for human sexuality, or is it just a theology of no?

That's good. What is the gospel? Because in your chapter, I think it's chapter one, you talk about the gospel and how we are to give the gospel, communicate the gospel to our children. But one of the interesting, I think, approaches is that you kind of pair the gospel with wisdom. Yeah. And so how we want to equip our children with the wisdom to navigate the world because they're going to come against evil.

They're going to come against stuff. They're going to experience things within themselves. And it's like we can't protect them from everything. All we can do. Like what's you about to say? No, and I was just going to say what, correct me if I'm wrong, because I didn't, I don't know nothing about this purity culture movement. I was on a block when this is happening, you know, but to be honest with you. You do the purity culture. But, but also I think what I might

hear you hearing is that a lot of, a lot of this was invoked by shame, like a lot of shame, like shaming, and not intentionally. I think a lot of times when we are fearful, we can, in our own, a bit, like in our own efforts, we can invoke shame because we desperately don't want people to go down the wrong road, wrong path. But I don't think the gospel does that. The gospel says that we serve a God who redeems and restores, right? And so even when we fall, we have a throne of grace to come to a boldness that we might find helping our time of need and all the things. And so I think you guys growing up in this culture and seeing that how like a lot of fear-driven ideologies probably helped invoke a lot of shame, even though the intention was probably good.

Right. It invoked a lot of shame. And I think that's what I hear. And so like how how has you guys allowed like the gospel message to inform how you guys write this resource and give it out to the world? Our brains literally cannot process data when we're living in fear and shame. It goes into our reptilian brain. You could probably say the actual part of our brain, but where we are just fight, flight, freeze and reproduction. That's where our brain goes when we're scared, when we're in defense.

mode is a phrase you might hear. But the gospel does not begin within the beginning. Sin distorted everything. It begins within the beginning. God created it good. So the gospel is a theology of yes, and of flourishing. And it actually wakes up our brain to be able to receive the beauty of God's design for sex and sexuality and gender. That's good. So that's a pivot, is what. What is not just, okay, well, Lori Krieg is going to bake in a happy, smiley vision of sexuality? It's the gospel has created and formed for our brains and for our flourishing, a beautiful path of flourishing. So what is the gospel? The shortest way I can say it is the story of King Jesus.

And how does that relate to human sexuality is God wants us to live into his beautiful vision for the world to restore and redeem. everyone into joyful submission to King Jesus for our glory in his good. Yeah, it's good. This is a really random question. Sure. But Matt, I'm wondering if even when you have clients who are dealing with certain things, do you find that their core issues are gospel issues? Yeah, they're hard issues, right?

I mean, we are created to be made complete in the Lord and the Lord alone, and we often will run to any number of things. I like to go to James chapter one with my client. Well, when they're open to spirituality, I go to James chapter one, when it says, hey, when we're tempted, don't let us say God is tempting us instead.

It's our own evil desires that drag us away and entice us. But that word for evil desire is like a twisted desire. It's not like it's this inherently evil thing, but it's become idolized. It's become distorted. And so if we can start, to rather than look at the thing we're trying to say no to, I got a lot of guys coming, like, trying to not look at porn anymore.

Rather than just staring at pornography and saying, don't look at it, don't look at it, don't look at it. It's this unraveling of like, what is their heart really wanting in that engagement? And then how do we detwist it? How do we untwisted and realign it toward God? And then toward, like, the healthy ways that God is provided in this life for us to meet those needs. Yeah. Yeah, what I love about that is, you know, if the Bible begins with all these things

were good, but our experiences are not good. Yeah. There is a sense in which the Lord is trying to restore us and even expose what we're actually after. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, the people sometimes watch porn because they're after comfort. People engage in certain relationships because they're after identity.

There is this sense where we are after good things. We're just doing it in perverted, distorted ways. And so I think to be able to speak to that literally, I've seen it in my life and in my ministry, that thing, like that helps you uproot a lot of stuff. And I think that's what real ministry is. And in short, it's pointing people back to God. And I think, you know, you guys are doing it in the sexuality space. You know, I do it in apologetic space. She does it in sexuality space. So it's just pointing people back to the one day they were disconnected from. You know, and I probably have a lot of questions. for you like because because i i the lord has made me be like like led me to be more intrigued with therapy and i'm just wondering like you know as a christian like when people come in your office like i know as a christian you have a framework like a biblical framework but not everybody's christian that comes into your office and so i guess i guess i can ask you now how does that

inform how you point people back to jesus when you're when you're like i don't know if you can be like overtly Christian in your job, but like how does that look like giving people Jesus in a secular space? Yeah. I mean, when we're talking about the good needs that I believe like God instilled created with our, we are created needy. That is not a disorder. That is how God created us for good because it's supposed to draw us back to him.

And so even if I'm not saying, oh, hey, turn to Jesus. Like I've had Muslim people come into my office because they know on my bio it says I'm a Christian, but they're like, I want to work with you because you believe in God and you're probably not going to make fun of me for believing in God too. And so like- It's very wise. Yeah. And I mean, I was surprised by that the first time I heard it, but it makes sense because so much of the world is kind of turning secularized. So there's like the complete absence of God. It's very humanist. And so even if I'm not saying, hey, you need to go to Jesus, if I'm talking about these needs that people have to belong,

to be affirmed for love, for safety, you know, that that is something that universally draws people in. And then over time, people actually can get curious and start to ask like, hey, where do you go? Like, I've had people who are like, I'm not interested in spirituality. But then after working with them for a long time, they actually do start to question.

And that's when I can be more overt because the client is inviting. it. Yeah, that's good. You're an evangelist. Yeah. When it comes to the gospel and communicating that to our children, how have you found, how do I say this, how you give the gospel to a three-year-old, it's different than how you give the gospel to a 15-year-old. It's not a different message, but there is a different. It's just different. It's like the way I get the gospel to somebody in the hood will be a little bit different than the way I get a gospel to somebody in Portland. Portland got a hood, just ain't seen it. So I'm saying, how would you

communicate what you just said to a three-year-old and how would you communicate what you just said to a 14-year-old? So when I talk with our- About sexuality. About sexuality. Yes. When I talk with our kids about the gospel, I do say the story of King Jesus. And I try and pinpoint because kids are like the epitome of needy. So there's times, you know, we'll have them. We've been trying to help them earn their own money. And some of our kids, they want to spend it like water within one second. And I'll even ask them, I'll be like, do you feel that inside, like that anxiety? I was like, usually it's not in the store when they have their money and they're stuffy, their favorite, stuffies in front of them. They can't quite process what's going on inside. But later,

I might be like, what did you feel inside? And even like three-year-old, four-year-old, five-year-olds, they can feel that emptiness inside. Well, I was feeling, you know, I was sad, or I was bored, or I was tired, and I was like, and you ran to stuff. That's good. We all do that. And honestly, that's actually a really helpful framework when talking about our broken world.

Last night, I was talking to my almost 11-year-old. And she said, mom, I feel really like, I don't know if I'm loved. And, you know, as a parent, you're like, great. What you mean? I'm failing. Yeah, I do love you. Yeah. I say it 97 times a day and I pour out my life for you.

Yeah. And I literally drew a person and I drew a heart and I put a little hole in their heart. And I was like, hey, do you feel? I said, you know what? There's so many good things. Friends. And I like drew pictures of all of it. We had this little like drawing erasable thing.

I said, friends and dad. and me, you know, we can, we can love you and care for you. But at the end of the day, I said, there's always going to be this gap. That's good. And do you know who's the only one who can meet that? And she can eye roll at this point. You know, she knows what I'm going to say. Yeah, Jesus. Christ. But there's this pinpointing of where they're exactly at and then pointing to Jesus. Now, there's other ways we talk about the story of King Jesus, which I can, I can share that. But that's just like the tangible going off of the heart model that we've been talking about. Yeah, that's beautiful.

And I think it's beautiful because she doesn't have language probably to realize that, you know, you were actually creative for someone. Yes. And that someone is Jesus. And so when you do feel a longing, you probably don't know how to like mentally emotionally, like to know, I'm actually longing for Jesus. And so sometimes it could just be like, you can feel the pressure of like, oh, my kid is tired of me talking about Jesus,

but it's actually the one that they have to consistently be pointed back to. Because that's what they're longing for. You know what? That actually helped me as a mom too, because there is, I don't know if you feel this too, Jackie, but among parents right now, there's a lot of critique of how our parents did it, and some of that is really good and needed.

Some of it, though, I'm like realizing I feel the back swing on myself where I'm like, oh no. Now I feel like, when I fail them, when I do this, that, or the other thing, I am distorting their view of God. I'm sending them to 95 million hours of therapy, et cetera, right? But even drawing that out and saying out loud to her that I can't complete her was actually a really helpful reminder

for me as a mom that Lori, that's excellent. It's actually God is the one who completes. Right. That's excellent. That's good. Because I was sharing with Preston this morning how I don't consume a lot of lot of parenting content. Yeah.

I don't. Right. Because it makes me feel guilty. 100%. Like the Instagram pages, the, like some of it, I got to be real desperate for me to engage. You know what I'm saying? So even this conversation, I think, can provoke that guilt in people.

Like, they just going to remind me of what I'm not doing right. Exactly. You know what I think for you to say, no, you need to apply the gospel. even to that shame. Yeah. You know what? Like the Lord wants to speak to that too, because it's like,

you're not going to be the perfect parent. Absolutely. But we can't grow. Absolutely. And that's why this conversation and all these conversations, we need to put the burden back on God. And we need to look at our parenting

and all of it through this lens of he is writing a good story and we're just a part of it. Yeah, we are. Yeah. You asked the quote, well, we talked about how purity culture kind of like the fear calls like in the invoking of shame and all the things.

Like, how do we, like, in a broken world where it seems like pornography is kind of unavoidable. Like, it's just out there, you know. Our kids are exposed to it at school. Kids, house, I mean, technology is like crazy. Like, how do we proactively counteract the fear of our kids stumbling on porn with the gospel? Like, like, because it's, I'm not going to say it's not avoidable for everybody. but they're going to hear about it, see about it. And so I guess I'm asking like, how do we not lead with fear of thinking like once our kid sees this, they're going to be forever tainted?

They're going to be forever ruined. Like, what would your advice be to parents in that way? I think the biggest thing is to realize that that first exposure is coming earlier than you imagine. I mean, I think the last study I read was the average age of first exposure to pornography is something like eight years old. between eight and 12 there's several studies out there yeah and so i mean it's coming before you realize it's not when they're in puberty it's it's very much earlier but if we're talking about it if we become the first person that's like hey you might see things online that make you feel confused or maybe intrigued or something um if we're the first one that that talks to them about

that we're the ones that they can come to when they have maybe been exposed to it and and they can actually process it. It's not something they're like, oh, I saw something and I feel weird about it and I can never talk to anyone and then I have to process it in silence or on the playground. Wow. I'm even more overt. I like sat our kids down. It was like Matt was seeing clients late and I was like, Lori, just have the conversation about porn. Do it. So I prayed about it. And, you know, our kids at this point were 10-8-5. And I said, do you guys know that you know how we talk about how the internet is not a very safe place. That, for one, is a common conversation.

We're trying to get them embodied interactions, and we want to be leery of the internet. I said, do you know that some people, they actually take pictures of private parts, and they put them online? What? I said that out loud, because as a mom,

I want to be their anchoring bias. You heard that? Jesus. That's a good word. Y'all speaking to us, y'all don't buy it a kid. Because I felt that. I never heard that in my life and I liked it. Anchoring bias.

It's a psychological term that means the first place that we hear something is going to be the gold standard to which we compare everything else. Wow. Do I want the gold standard for the internet, for sex, for relationships to be pornography where nine out of ten videos are violent? or they stumble across it and that first stumbling across porn is actually a trauma

or do I want if and I would say when probably likely you're going to see some at least soft porn Instagram is covered in it I want them to remember mom and dad already told me about this so I didn't stop it there did you know that some people put on the internet

no why would they do that you guys it's so sad isn't it people that is not we're supposed to honor our body, aren't we? We're supposed to honor these places. So I just want you to know that if you guys come across that, you shut whatever it is you're looking at, you come fine mom and dad, and I want you to know you will not get in trouble. And I say, I ask, why is that important? Because shame is a real jerk. And Satan, sexuality and shame are like best buddies. Yeah. Yeah. So I even ask them right after. So if you come across a picture like that, will you get in trouble?

I'm not kidding. It literally just said five seconds before you're not going to get in already Satan was jumping in as far as like trying to. She's lying. Yeah, exactly. They went, uh, I don't know. You will not get in trouble. And so we went through it. So I said, what happens? A review, what do you do? They tell me back and will you get in trouble? No, we go through that like every six months. Yeah. Wow. That's good. I think it's in, I got two questions with that because I've often said around the sexuality conversation that when a child, teenager, whoever comes out of the closet confesses or is exposed, how you respond is really important.

Because I think we, not a thing, I believe we need to respond like Christ because that too trains them how to go to him when they get caught in sin, right? And so I think responding in a gospel-centric way helps them develop this like capacity to be like, okay, I can confess my sin to God and still be loved and still be received. And so how does someone, how does a parent develop that? Do you get what I'm saying? Oh yeah. Because I, you see parents, I think, swing the pendulum where they respond in shame, which might be embarrassment, really, or fear, where it's just like, why would you do that? That's stupid. That's dumb. Da-da-da-da-da. Or like my mama, she found stuff and ain't say a thing because I don't

think she wanted any parts of it. She like I think it just overstimulated her, gave her anxiety. Like my daughter's watching porn. I don't know what to do this. So how do we, how do we not flee and how do we not attack? How do we respond like Christ? To be curious, and I would say first and foremost of your own sexual story, if you haven't processed your own story, if you haven't processed your own sin and struggles, then you are not going to respond well to someone else's. That's good, sir. And so I know like I've, I've, I've, had many times where that thing that you were talking about, either someone coming out or being caught, looking at pornography, sleeping with boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever, like, where I've had

the whole family in my office. And I asked the question, like, to the parents and to the kid, hey, what shaped your sexual story? And they will literally look at me like a deer in headlights and be like, are we allowed to talk about this? Wow. I'm like, you need to talk about this. Because if you're not, like, who are they talking about it with? That's good. That's excellent. That's excellent. Because black church, we throw shoes. I might throw a sock at you because I ain't got a shoe. I think I've developed my strategy on how to respond to people's sin because of how the Lord has responded to mine. Yeah.

It's a conscious awareness of how he treated and treats me. That's right. And knowing like, no, I want to give away that same grace. Now alongside the grace, though, there's also a. need for boundaries and discipline. And so how do you create boundaries and discipline that doesn't also feel like a consequence that's like, you know, you know what I'm trying to say? It's not a slap on the wrist.

Yeah. It's like you need some discipline and some boundaries, but I also don't want you to feel shame. So it's like, but I got to do something. And also too, I thought about that as a parent. I've thought about, man, I need to give my children discipline. because, you know, God chastises us, right? He disciplines us.

But I'm afraid that my discipline would, will prevent them from coming back to me and freedom again. And so I think what is the balance of disciplining and not being afraid to make them shut down? Real questions. So the goal is of God's dis, hatred, whatever word you want to use, of sin

is because he wants union with us. He wants holiness. he wants purity. We could even use that word because he wants union. He doesn't want to beat us over the head. It's not like, he's like, gosh, I just love hurting my kids.

No. So do we have that heart? I'm looking at my kid who's whatever they're feeling, shame, guilt, whatever they're feeling. I want union with them. I want to show them like you said, the heart of the father.

If it's the first exposure, every therapist that you read, every psychologist, psychiatrist, who is in this field will tell you that's trauma. We don't discipline trauma because a child's brain cannot ever prepare themselves for what they see on that screen.

Ever. Wow. Now, if they're, you know, they stole the iPad, they went around behind your back, you know, they're lying about 79 things. You've got to have discernment there, but truly those first exposure exposures, it's a trauma, and we need to treat it as such.

I'm so sorry you saw that. Like, what if they encountered that? They saw someone having sex around the block. Like, I am so sorry. That is trauma for you. How are you feeling? Thank you for telling me. I told you wouldn't get in trouble.

You're not getting in trouble. Now, parents are listening to this and they're like, oh, my goodness, I definitely grounded my kid for 17 weeks after their first exposure. Grace, grace, grace, grace, grace. gospel. There's so much, it's about repairing. We can always go back. But I would say we need to be cautious with those first, like, sneaking exposures because

curiosity and sexuality, they're very close in the brain. That's good. Ooh, that's good. And kids, like, no one has a fully developed brain when they're 12 years old. You know, however old they are stumbling across it. And so they see it and it weakens things up. If you've had sexual abuse, you know the. confusion of that because it wakes things up in your body. That's what's happening to our precious

kids. Yeah. So I would ask the questions, how are you feeling? How did, you know, it might make you feel a mix of emotions. That's okay. Wow. So that's where I'd begin. The discipline piece, you know, even in our book we talk about that, I say, just be cautious with that in these early ages. Our book is 12 and under. You know, if you're talking to a kid who's been watching porn and masturbating and do all the stuff for 10 years. Whatever. That's a whole other conversation. But these early exposures, I would just encourage us to walk tenderly and seek union.

That's good. Yeah. That's good. I think that's great what you said because I think if somebody feel like their parent is just mad because I'm just irritated. I'm mad that you disobey me. But I love the fact that you pointed back to the heart of God. God doesn't discipline us because of that. He disciplines us because ultimately what he wants is fellowship.

He wants communion. He wants connection and doing things that goes against his nature breaks that. And so I think what if we bring that into our parents? What do we bring that framework? Like, Daddy's not mad at you because I'm just irritated. I'm disappointed in you. This actually breaks peace between me and you and Daddy. Daddy wants to enjoy you.

And so, like, I think that would even color, like, when we do discipline our kids, like to know, like, Daddy's mad because he loves me and he wants to stop peace with one another. And if you're lying and walking around here doing things that I told you, it breaks that peace. It breaks that fellow. It breaks that, you know, communion. And so I think that's really, really helpful. And I want to say something that's going to sound a bit mystical. But I want parents to know that take heed to the Holy Spirit's promptings about stuff.

You know, like I've had so many times where I've had dreams. I've had just unctions that I need to have a certain conversation, that I need to look at a certain thing, that I need to check a certain situation. It's true. Honestly, and it's because the Lord is guiding, like his spirit is guiding you as you parent your children. And it's been when I've ignored stuff that I've found stuff, you know?

And so I think just to pay attention to that. And because I wish I had it. I remember hearing kids who grew up with Christian parents talk about like, man, the Lord always told on me. And I love that he's doing that now. Like the Lord be telling my kids business to me. Like, I love it. Now, y'all in the book talk about how you read the Bible at dinner.

Who started that? Y'all eat dinner every day. Y'all eat at the table every day. Is you making the dinner? Is it Uber eats? Is it like a spiritual discipline for you? y'all? Like, what did y'all do when the babies couldn't read the devotional? You read it to them? Is it the NLT? You're doing ESV, NSA. Tell us about your Bible time with your kids.

Yeah, usually it's at breakfast. So we try to start the day. Which is like Lucky Charms. Yeah, I mean, it's a lot of times it's Lucky Charms or maybe some box pancake mix or something. Codiac cakes. Those are good. Those are good. I'm a little protein cakes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But it started off. is like a kid's devotional. I think the one we stuck on most is like thoughts to make your heart sing. It's just these little like two paragraph devotionals with the kids. We would read them to them.

And then eventually once our girls got old enough to read on their own, it would kind of rotate. Someone reads. And then the other person kind of leads the prayer time of, hey, what does everyone need prayer for today? And so that's where we've been at. We've started transitioning to like,

hey, let's read the actual Bible because it is time for them. to really start cracking it open. They have their own Bible. You know, but given the ages of our kids, you know, our youngest still likes the little, you know, two-minute, two-paragraph thing. But it's just that early exposure.

It's a rhythm. I would say our best weeks, it's like four times a week. And I'd love it to be seven, but it's probably about five minutes. But it's so good for us. There's so many times we'll be like, that's Sally Lloyd-Jones. She really just gets me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But we'll read it, or one of the girls will read it, and we just go around and we say, what did you hear in that? And so they could say, Jonah, wail. And as long as they're not being sassy, we don't care. It's just, just let's get in the posture of like, we read it, you think about it. And then the prayer time, it's really sweet. Our four-year-old has been leading it for a while. He's now six.

He's four or five-six, and he'll just say, what do you want prayer for? And initially, like, we have all the person. Yeah, he'll go around. The intercessant. Yes. And then he'll pray in his sweet little heart. But at the beginning, none of them want to. None of them really, it's a shaping of our family. But it's really sweet when we read this, we say what we heard in it. Even Matt and I say, and then we say something we're thankful for and what we want prayer for. And to have a five-year-old pray for you. Yeah. I had one of my spiritual leaders tell us, tell me when I was disciplining young man, he said, he said, you need to stop telling the people that you're, the people that you're, you know, the people that you. disciples, they need to stop telling you what they need. You, like Jesus never asks

the disciples, what do you need? Right? And I think the same thing can be said for our children. Like, they don't know they need it. But as time goes on, they realize, oh, this actually is benefiting me, you know? And so sometimes we have to just bully our kids. Like, no, you don't pray even when you don't feel like it. This is what you need. And you'll see it eventually. Yeah. I remember a framework that I heard from Jen Wilkin a long time ago that was really helpful is that she was like when your kids are young it's high frequency low depth when your kids are older

it's low frequency high depth and it kind of released me from feeling like I needed to teach them about eschatology at two three four you know what I'm saying like I'm thinking like all y'all need to know the atonement but it was like it was fine fissionation yeah it was fine to say

like I remember I took Eden with me to teach at passion some years back she was like six and I was teaching Isaiah 6 and she was in the back and I said, did you understand anything? I said, and she said, no. And I said, I taught about God being holy. I said that means that he's different

and that he's good. I didn't have to say that he is, you know, preeminent, that he is sanctified, that he is different, he's good. And that's it. That's right. I'm just building bricks. And so I think don't feel this pressure

to give you. your children a seminary education beyond their bandwidth. Like, the Lord can do a lot with a little. And that's what was fun about writing this book. So I've been in this space for over 10 years, teaching churches and teaching adults. But there's nothing like taking these huge concepts and making them so five-year-old understand what marriage is. What is sex when you talk about it with them when they're eight, nine, ten, you know?

So it's, but it helps me learn it. And it is still true even if it's simple. And make sure a better teacher too when you have to teach children. It does. You have to break things down in a very, very simple complex. Like big ideas, very, very simple. It makes a way better teacher. In your book, you give vision for not only marriage, but singleness.

I can't say I've seen that before. Because I think we're usually trained to disciple our children. children in having a vision for marriage only. So what's the strategy with that? So we talked a little bit about the gospel from a heart view. We talked a little bit about the gospel is a story of King Jesus. When I ask our kids, what is the purpose of your life? What is the mission today?

What is the mission of God? Here's how we say it. The mission of God is to put. push back the darkness and usher in the light. So our kids, they don't want to go to school. Nobody, they ever want to go to school. Why don't have to go to school? There's an instinct in me that wants to say,

you have to go to school because you have to get a good job and you have to become a marketable spouse. Already I'm leaning into idolatry because I don't know that that's true. That's good. And you can make XYZ money and get out someday because I'm tired. Or I could say, God is advancing his kingdom or in kids speak. God wants to push back the darkness and usher in the light.

And he made you so good. And he's actually given you incredible gifts. And when you go to school, you're helping, you're sharpening the gifts that God has given you to help advance this kingdom work. I said nothing about marriage. Because marriage and singleness are the most. We live out the mission to advanced God's kingdom. That's good. Now, keep going, Lord.

We do say things about marriage and singleness, but we say things like, do you see that bird over there? Look at the little eggs. Or in the springtime where it's like all flowering and beautiful. Isn't that so cool? God is a God who wants to make babies. It's, I'm talking about the multiplicative heart of God. You see that in churches.

You see that everywhere. God is a God who wants to make babies. And he might have called you, dear one, to get married and have babies. If God gives you babies, you know, I'm not about to say he's definitely going to give you kids. I don't know their story. But he wants you to make disciples. He wants us to make babies, whether he calls you to marriage or if God calls you to singleness, which is equally good.

I don't even need to say it because they know that. It's so ingrained in our heart, in our house. Or he might call you to singleness, but he still has called you. you to have babies. That's good. Yeah. Because he wants everyone to make disciples. Wow. That's really good. That's transformative. You felt that in your shando? I did. It did a little quickening thing. Because there's so much, so much that we have to, there's so much we have to undo about marriage and singleness in the church today. You have so many singles or you have recently divorced people who now feel lost, you know, because they're no longer married. So it's just like,

I think to cultivate that in your children is just kind of deep and interesting. And I think that's another reason why people... Your knee is so bony. Yeah. I was like, ooh, spiky. My goodness gracious. I think that's another reason why people feel like they can't actually fulfill the purpose of God in their life until they get married. And so they feel like they can be fruitful until they find a spouse.

And I think that, you know, that type of ideology. Can I say I don't know. About my knee? Which is spiky knee? No. This morning we were talking and we were saying how ministry to our children as it relates to our marriage in particular is not just communicating Ephesians 5 and Genesis 1 and 2 and all the stuff, it's living it.

It's like how we exist as a married couple also preaches to our children. And so how is, I guess how would you encourage people, even about that being a lesson? Like it's not just the words. It's also the union between you two. About marriage in particular, also singleness. marriage. But the singleness part, because y'all ain't single, so I would be interested on how y'all preach a vision of singleness as non-singles. You have dope single people in your life. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You have single people in your life who love Jesus because that's not a lesser calling.

Mm-hmm. I was just reading in 3rd John 1-4. He says, I have no greater joy than to see my children are living in the truth. That's good. He's not married and he doesn't have kids. He's, spiritual kids. Yeah. And God has empowered him. God has given and gave him the gift of singleness, just like he gave Paul the gift of singleness. So I, when we have our single friends over, it's not like, oh, our poor sad sack single friend. Yeah. It's look at how amazing she is. And I say, I literally say this to them, our friend Cassie, who's in our book. I say God has called her to singleness. And I don't always even say in this season, you might call her forever. Yeah. But look at what she's doing with her singleness. Yeah. Or God might call you to marriage.

And that's to your point. And how you love your spouse, that shows your kids a picture of God's love for them. Yeah. Yeah, it's huge. That's really good. I guess I have another question as it relates to you guys as marriage. How important it is for you guys to have a togetherness, like you guys to be on the same page as it relates to the vision that you give your children, how you point to your children, because you guys are two different. individuals, right? Sometimes you might think a certain way. Sometimes you might think a certain way.

Sometimes you might say, this is too young to introduce this idea. And like, so working, because I think working together will inform how we work with our children. And so how important has that been for our marriage? I don't know that we can overstate the importance of it. I mean, it's, and it's, again, it's not like the, are we in verbal agreement on this course of action? I think it's much more, are we moving the same direction? You might even notice in the way we speak, Lori can get a little more fiery. I am.

Lori Baptist. That's what that is. I'm much more of a counselor, right? I'm calm. I'm not exuberant. And there's good and bad to both of those. I relate, man. She just...

Yeah, I was like, oh, this is me present. She just goes off on songs and tanges. I just be like, oh, wait, you done. Hey man. But I mean, I think part of that unity is recognizing the strength. Like, Lori is a,

she's verbally gifted. I mean, that's one of her love languages is like words of affirmation. It's not mine. She constantly calls me to be more effusive of my praise, especially with our kids saying, I love you, saying, like, when I've seen them do good

things. Whereas, like, for, for me, like I'm an easy time spent like I can just sit there with my kids and like lean against them and like we're both reading like a big Nate comic together like just real real low key you know but both of those

are good and both of those can help to form something different in our kids but to get on the same page takes work as you guys know right it's there's so many times where I'm like can we go on a walk yeah yeah yeah yeah so we have to go on a walk and get what's going on here. And I think as women, that can be sometimes easier for us to discern, not always.

Sometimes it's the guy who is easier can feel the tension sooner. But in our relationship, it's usually me. And then we just, it's even in the walking side by side and getting back on the same page. We come back in the house and our kids feel that. They feel that union because marriage, if we're talking about this gospel vision, marriage is a picture of how much God wants to and will be one with us. Yeah, that's good. That's what our kids see.

Yeah. And so if there's disunity, again, we could take the pressure off. We all can think of 97 fights we had in last week because the burden is on God. But we are still an example, the closest example to our kids, of God's treasuring love of them. Yeah, I remember my dad and my mom got divorced when I was five. And I remember around four or five, I don't remember a lot, but what I do remember is the anxiety that my body felt when they were at odds or when they were arguing. I don't even remember other things in my early childhood.

And then they got divorced when I was five and I was separated from my father for years. It was very tragic. Not therapy, a lot of therapy, a lot of therapy. But I just think about God's unity. I mean, God is a communal triune God and like how they are. so connected, it gives, like, we probably can't even fathom how much security we have because we have father, son, and Holy Spirit united as one. And so how much more does that kind of filter into our homes when we, as married couples, husband and wife, like, I think it creates a security,

a confidence, a reassurance that our parents, who's the glue of this home, this family is together? And I think that's the reason why the enemy attacks marriage so much, not just because, you know, it's a pitch up the gospel throughout the earth, but he wants to impact how our children see the world and see each other throughout our marriage. I think hearing all of that, I think of people who either have divorced, who might have always been single and have not lived morally pure lives in front of their children.

And they're trying to do it right. but they know they have more history of doing it wrong. Wow. That's good, right. I guess how do you encourage parents who feel like I've had a example that is unhelpful more than I've had a helpful example? Will my kids even trust what I have to say now? Will they even believe me? Will they feel like I'm a hypocrite?

How can I tell them to be sexually pure and they saw me fall a month ago? How can I tell my kids to honor marriage and I divorce somebody? Like, how do you speak into that? Because I feel like we have people, I know we have people listening that feel that weight. I mean, the first thing is to take that anxiety and that shame and that wrestling and stop and take it to Jesus. Like, sooner than later. That's good. Just face it.

There's so many times when, like, parenting shame, I mean, I could go to bed every single night hating myself if I wanted to. And instead of just ignoring it and it's just, is like this gnat in your ear, just face it and bring it to Jesus and say, Jesus, who do you say I am? Is it actually true that I can start again right now? Is it actually true that I can hide behind the cross and your grace is actually sufficient for me? Is that true?

And then there's nothing so gloriously uncomfortable as accepting the love and grace of Jesus. That's good. Here we are in our mess. to actually say, Jesus loves me and takes this away, you're going to feel panicky. That's not a sign you're doing it wrong.

You might be doing it right. And then I would, it depends on the ages of your kids, but I like to acknowledge elephants in the room. So it would be like, you know what, guys, I have messed up. And depending on the ages of your kids and what's the age appropriate level

of sharing what that was like, how you messed up, it can be a general or a lute, or specific. And just say, but you know what, I love Jesus and here's his vision and I'm convinced it's good. And I want to help us see that it's good too. That's good.

Because, you know, I think kids need to know that their parents know how to repent. Yes. That's what's up. We don't, none of us need perfect parents. No. None of us need self-righteous parents either. We need parents that know what it's like to mess up, acknowledge it, confess, and move forward.

Yeah. so that they have a model of how to do that too. So I would just be encouraged. But maybe God is also training them in how to actually do this thing. You know what I'm saying? And the whole Bible is broken people. God using broken people to show us his heart, his will. Because if they were perfect, I mean, they would point to a perfect God.

I think this is practical. So we have to address it. LBGTQ visuals. Yeah. On screen, ads. Netflix. to that. Hulu.

Because we live in Atlanta. Amazon Prime. Oh, billboards. It's billboards. Oh my God. It was, yeah, anyway. I know what you used to say. We was going to church one day.

It was his billboard. I told a person, drive up, drive up, drive up. I just started asking them questions. I said, yeah, y'all like that donut that y'all said. I just want to try to distract them as much as possible. It was the hugest billboard that I knew. It's like sometimes you don't feel like having the conversation. I just didn't feel like saying the two men are kissing because the way.

Two men are kissing because I didn't feel like doing it. Because the way I 10 year and I seven year old, why is they doing that? Always, always, always. I do not feel like. Give us your wisdom. The visuals. All right. So you see the rainbow flag?

What do you say? Yes. In the moments where you're like, I actually can talk about this. God, never going to flood the earth again. You can. I just suppose you could do that. So there's something called an unformulated experience that can happen to. a kid where they see something, question mark bubbles, go above their head, and it just like

bounces around their brain, just hangs out there. That feels, that produces anxiety. They're going to start trying, they're going to create their own story to finish it, because our brains want to finish the loop. We as parents need to help to bring that unformulated experience into the left brain, give it language. That's good. Now, that's going to calm them down. That's going to help them understand what they see. You don't have to do that every single time, but here's what you do if it's the time. So you see that rainbow flag or you see those two guys kissing. What did you think of that? Just let them answer, and they're going to say some crazy stuff. They're going to be whatever they're going to say. Yeah. Thanks so much for sharing. Thank you. I'm always thanking them.

Yeah. Yeah, it was kind of different. Now, why is that not God's design? So maybe your kids, they have no clue. You've never talked about this one time. Wow, you know how, what is God like? Yeah, that's good. Start with God. Yeah. God, he's big, he's strong, he's mighty, whatever they know, whatever words they do know. And what are people like? Oh, well, we're people. They probably don't even know what to say. Are we different? Are we the same? We're different. Moms and dads, or God had designed marriage to be different between a mom and a dad, because they, actually show you a picture of how God loves you, even though he's so different from us.

That's good. God wants to be one with us. And God wants marriage to be between a mommy and a daddy because he wants to show the world a picture of how different he is, but how he wants to be one with us. You is preaching. You better preach. That's a short. Come on now.

If you want to take it to level two. Yeah. Take it to level two. Here's level two. Uh-huh. is babies. This is such a simple apologetic. So different is required. So some people like, oh, well, two lesbian women, they're different and off-doubt babies. I hear you. Sex difference. Sex difference. Now, why? Babies include people, but they're not about people either.

They're about God. God's heart is multiplicative. He wants to create more and more images of himself everywhere because he loves us so much and he wants the whole earth to be submitted to king Jesus and worshiping him. He wants more pictures of himself everywhere. So how he designed that is two different things showing a picture of God's how different he is from us but wants union with us. Moms and dads are different. Want union with each other. Only a mom and a dad can show the multiplicative heart of God. That's good. Two women can't. See what I think what you're also displaying is you know that text in Deuteronomy, I don't know it. Whereas like, you everywhere you go, talk about this on your door, pulling all the stuff. The thing about that text is, to me, it always says,

I'm not going to talk about this all the time if it's not in me. That's right. You know what I'm saying? And so even your communication to your children with this, this, even to distill the theology means you have to wrestle with it. You have to think about it. You got to know it. And so it puts us in a position to be to learn ourselves and I think that's actually the beauty sometimes of parenting or even ministry is that you'll get asked questions that reveal a lack that maybe the Lord wants you to like oh I need to study that so I can come back and be like oh this is why this exists yeah and so yeah well and that's why I have such a heart for these moms and dads who see the two dads kissing on the big billboard or see the rainbow flag and they panic but that's why I'm like can we I would

Take it all. Take everything I've written. All of you, we're doing conferences. It's video project. You guys got to be a part of. Please learn these things because I just so want the next generation to not just be lost. And then like, all right, I'm affirming. And love is love.

Wow. You have a quote that I want to read directly because I liked it. It says, how can we help our kids grow up as healthy boys and girls in this gender-hurning world? Yeah. I believe a huge part of it is helping our kids belong with their gender. with their families and with the church. Why do I correlate belonging and helping our kids love their sexed bodies?

I want you to answer that question. Belonging is something that we all, I feel like feel the need for. If we've ever been alone or if we've ever felt like an outcast or like we didn't fit in, we all long for belonging. We all long for a place that we're like, okay, I fit here. I belong. one of the first ways we we tend to see that is in sex difference you know that that boys will tend to

gravitate toward one another stereotypically by and large and girls will as well and so so much of the gender conversation right now feels like it's it's born out of this kind of rallying against some of the strong stereotypes um because i'm not john wayne i'm not a male or because Because I'm not a Barbie doll, I'm not female. And that's, it's kind of the straw man argument, right? Like, no one is John Wayne and no one is Barbie. Yeah. My son, even if he wants to play American girl dolls with his sisters, is still a boy.

My daughter, even though she loves basketball and can beat a lot of the boys in her school in Lightning, is still a girl. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. We've walked with a lot of people who wrestle with gender. All of them have a story of not feeling like they belong with their biological sex group. And it breaks my heart. Now, is that always the issue that is beneath the gender dysphoria?

No. Yeah. But it is interesting to me. I don't think it helps when we say what Matt was just saying, as far as gender stereotypes, you belong here. If you do like pink and dolls and... And, you know, to paint your nails, then you're a girl. Or this is a boy. When I listen to my friends who wrestle with gender,

I hear them very young, like, opting out. Saying, I don't do X, Y, and Z in this group. Therefore, what am I? What am I? But I wonder if even if it's what am I, I wonder if the question is, do I belong? So when our son, if he wanted to paint his nails or play American girls, I'm never going to say, yes, you can play American girls and you're such a good mommy when you do that. I'm going to say, you're such a good dad because all dads are supposed to be nurturing.

And I'm going to say all the time we say this. I love your version of boy. Now, if I think he's going to do something that's not stereotypical and it might get him like bullied or made fun, of, I'm probably going to say that tenderly. Hey, you know what? Usually boys don't do this, but you're doing it. So boys can do it because you're a boy. And this is another piece.

When we talk about distilling complex things simply, what makes a boy? Yes. Your biology. So I'll ask him, why are you a boy? Oh, because I have a penis. and because I have, this is a little complex.

It's a little complex. I have the potential, the biological potential to help make a baby. Now, five, that's a little tricky. Yeah. But I have a penis. And he's the biological potential

to make a baby, a natural biological potential. People transition, women who transition to male, never have that natural biological potential to help make a, baby. What makes a girl? I have a vagina. I have breasts. I can get pregnant. A male who transitions to female. Can't do that at all. And never have a natural, I mean, the biology, even if we somehow

figure out to like, I don't know, print it or something, you'll never naturally have a period. And do you hear how my voice is tender? Yeah, it's important. People spend hundreds of thousands of to make these transitions to scratch the itch in their heart to feel like they finally belong. Yeah. So I have grief that this is their goal. And honestly, sometimes when I walk with people for a while, you hear them name it as an idol at some point. And I just ask them, will it actually ever scratch the belonging need or the itch of your heart? And they say, honestly, no.

And we shouldn't say, gotcha. We should say, so I just wonder if you could like save a lot of money. Yeah. And like try Jesus. Yeah. How do you, I guess how do you walk with children who are wrestling through that stuff? Because I feel like, you know, I had questions like that because I didn't fit in to the stereotypical feminine model. You know, it was like, oh, you're acting like a boy.

You're a tomboy. Which actually reinforced certain things because I didn't know that I was acting a certain kind of way. I just was moving about the world, you know. But it was like, oh, am I acting like a boy? Right. Am I a boy? Am I, you know what I'm saying? Like no one was affirming my femininity and my girlishness,

which I think led to all types of stuff. And I didn't have any space anywhere to go to think through. That's complicated. Yeah. Who am I? What am I? Like, how do you, if you're a parent with an 11-year-old, a 10-year-old asking these kinds of questions,

What do you do? Can I ask you, how would that have felt to you to be told by a mom, aunt, friend, like, Jackie, I love your version of girl. Affirming. Right? Yeah. Yeah. I probably wouldn't have went into the extreme of being a stud because I wouldn't, I think it just distorted my thinking about who I was and what I was. made to be and how I was supposed to show up.

And so I think it would have slowed down the pace of deception. Are you saying not only because people didn't affirm you, but they also reinforced the stereotype that you're not a girl. They didn't affirm me. And then they put planet lies in me. Yeah. There you go. Two.

Yeah. So you don't affirm that I am a girl, that I am feminine. And then you say, you are masculine. You are acting like a boy. And then you add the sexual trauma, the homosexuality. You create just a, like I was, they pushed me into, I'm not saying it ain't my fault. Like I made those decisions. But I think I was cultivated in the direction that I was sent into.

Absolutely. Yeah. And so. Didn't help. Nope. Yeah. So if your kid is struggling, I mean, help them to belong. We're always looking for places of belonging with their gender.

with them as kids. You know when your kids like rally and it's like kids first, the parents, some of that can be kind of cute. And if it's like not, you know, sinister. And then belong with our family and belong with the family of God. And then belong with the mission of God.

Yeah. Like you think about our kids whenever, if they're wrestling with same-sex attractions, like thinking about taking the weight off of you have to get married and instead putting it back on your purpose is to push back the darkness and usher in the light. However, if they feel attractions toward the same sex, it's going to be like, whatever. Yeah.

My mission doesn't change. So I think belonging with their gender in their version, their family, family of God, and mission of God is huge. But if your kid is really, now 80% of kids, there's one study at least that shows they grow out of these dysphoric feelings by the time they're 25. Majority grow out of it. So you don't need to panic. There's a small, teeny, tiny percent who really have something called diagnosable. gender dysphoria. And that would take a professional like Matt to come alongside or people who are specific in dysphoria world to help walk alongside them. But here's what parents would see

kids praying for their body parts to be gone or to grow body parts when to cut them off. Like an intense self-hatred over a long period of time. What would you add to that? Well, yeah. And I mean that bodily dysphoria piece, that having a strong dissonance, in certain aspects of the body, usually genitalia or breasts for girls, is just different than what you see with a social dysphoria, where it's like, I don't fit the stereotype, I don't fit the mold. And I mean, I know people who I have in my office who are, grew up in a different generation and ended up transitioning. So they're like post-op transgender people who are expressing like pain in some ways because of how something that they felt very acutely has become

watered down and means something completely different than than their experience. And so that's not to say that it's never easy, right? Like I can have people who are completely cisgender heterosexual, meaning they're attracted to the opposite sex and then they have no dissonance with their own gendered body. And I asked them like, hey, who are you? If you're going to use non-gendered language, like not just say I'm a boy, what does it mean to be you? What does it mean to be a boy?

And it's hard for all of us to describe ourselves and our experience without the use of gender. And so this is not something to take lightly, you know, but it's something that like with a six, seven, eight year old, if they are experiencing just the social dysphoria, it's helping them find out like, what is the good things that make you? you tick. That's good. What is the positive? It's not just about, well, you don't fit in here and you don't fit in there. It's like, well, you're like our, our son, like one of his chief, like things that he just loves is togetherness. Now, a lot of times the stereotype, at least about adult

males is where individualistic and, I forget the way the research said it, that we become, maturity is about individuation and impact. Well, our son is so much about togetherness. So much about like he longs for just the family to be one, to be in the same spot and just to be unified. That's an amazing thing that we could probably use more of as men in our culture. Yes. You know, and for women, like to call out the positives,

to call out the things, man, God made you unique. And that's a good thing. for a good reason, a good purpose. It's not that you don't fit over here in whatever stereotype. It's that God has a unique thing that only you are suited for. That's good.

Whether you're a boy or a girl. Wow. Wow. Well, let us know a little about the project that being Preston participated in a couple, what was that? March? March. That was March?

I don't know. I just know we showed up to a big old house and bughead. Y'all asked us a bunch of questions. was about sexuality and kids and things. And I was like, ooh. Because it's one day in March? I think so.

I thought an anniversary trip. Probably because I'm tired. It's end of March beginning of April. What price God. Tell us all the bad. What's going on? We're so grateful to have you guys and John Tyson and John Mark Comer and Kurt Thompson.

All these people are seeing the need to equip parents, caregivers, grandparents, children's pastors of kids, 12 and under, with not a reaction to the world's garbage, but to lay biblical foundations. So the film project, eight videos, and we talk about what's the gospel, how can we place a gospel identity? We talk about gender, marriage and singleness,

everything you heard here. I wrote the scripts besides the interview pieces with help from Preston Sprinkle and others. we talk about marriage and singleness. We talk about how to engage people with whom we disagree. How to engage systems with which we disagree, schools, libraries, you know, billboards. And then we talk about porn prevention and how to keep kids' bodies safe. That's good.

This is all, I don't know, any project that tackles all of these things in one video. Because as parents, we don't have time to read 95 books and digest it and distill it into our kids. And don't. We don't. We don't. And so we're trying to equip you with that. That's good. What's the title of it?

It's called Raising Kids. It's Christian Sexuality, which you're part of the teenage version. This is for parents of young kids. So parents watch it and we learn it so that as the embodied parents and caregivers and grandparents, we're teaching our kids. And it's called Raising Kids. Raising Kids. Yeah. Christian Sexuality.

I would encourage y'all who are listening because we'll link to Lori and Matt's book in the show notes in addition to. in addition to that video resource. Get your people at the house. Watch it together. Talk about it. Pray for each other. Pray over your kids. Like even dialogue with this content in a community.

So you can strengthen each other and how to parent well. I think even trying to parent alone is unhelpful. We can't. You know, so we need each other in this. And I just want to say that you guys are doing a necessary work. God is using you guys in a space. It's very much needed. Even for me, I've learned so much.

much been challenged, been convicted, even in this short conversation. So if you're a listener, be in prayer for this couple because God is definitely doing a work to you guys. And I know the enemy hates it. So be encouraged. Thank you. In closing, do y'all mind praying over all the parents who are listening? I love to.

God, I'm picturing the one mom or the one dad with them together, the grandparent, the children's pastor, the caregiver who's just looking at this world and they're feeling themselves freeze or want to fight back. But there's this tear in their eye that's like they truly love their kids in the next generation, but they're so scared and unequipped. So God, I just thank you. I really just thank you for running it through these broken vessels of Matt and I and Jackie and Preston, God, to create these resources.

And Lord, I just pray whoever needs to hear it and receive it is able to hear and receive it and digest it, God. Please, God, I just pray that they're able to understand it and equip the next generation. Not so that we follow the rules, but so that we live into your gospel flourishing. You created this world, good God, sin messed it up. And Jesus, you're our redeemer. will you help us to lead the next generation to not just follow your design,

but love and treasure it God because it shows the world a picture of your heart for them? Will you do that, Lord? Thank you, Jesus. Amen. Amen. Bye y'all. With the Perrys is produced by the Perrys

with support from Amanda Reed and Channing McBride, video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley, edited by the team at Tread Lively, artwork by Hobb, and music by Swoop. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.