With The Perrys - Fame: Christian Celebrity Culture

Episode Date: August 2, 2021

Fame isn't inherently bad but even then, it still comes with its share of snares and temptations. Preston and Jackie discuss their own experiences with fame and how Christians, no matter the size of their platform, can make sure that God's praise matters most.   To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal. To advertise with the Perrys, visit WithThePerrys.com/Partner. www.withtheperrys.com www.jackiehillperry.com www.preston-perry.com   Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

August 13th, only in theaters. Your specialty. You have a talent, they call genius. Can't learn it. God bestows it. Academy Award winner, Jennifer Hudson. I want to sing what I want to sing. Is Aretha Franklin.

When you sing, I feel like you are talking about my life. Her voice changed everything. Do you see what she is? She's a miracle. Respect. Only in theaters, August 13th. Readie PG-13. Maybe inappropriate for children under 13.

Hi, St. Nantes. How are you? I hope you're blessed. I hope you're highly favored. I hope your heart rate is fine. I hope you got at least eight hours of sleep. If you got six, I pray that the Lord will give you all the energy and the power that you need to go throughout your day. Your heart rate isn't fine. I hope you're not listening to this podcast. I hope you're seeking medical attention. Well, no, just stop eating ramen noodles, you know, stuff like that. Or stop eating like flaming hot chitos every day. Those types of things. Right, right. You know, because it's just like our sodium intake is. I don't know why I automatically thought of a heart attack when you said that. But you're talking about like somebody who would. Like hypertension, too much sodium.

Got you. Everybody in my family. Right. What are we talking about? I remember when I was pregnant with eating and I wanted some ramen noodles so bad. So I got the little pack because the pack is what, 25 cent? Something like that. And I got the chicken pack.

And then I looked at it and it said it had like 625 milligrams of sodium. And I said, oh my gosh, I would be such a terrible mother. My, like, I'm fine with eating this by myself, but when I considered the fact that I would be feeding my feet, I was going to say feces, fetus. What? I know, wrong person. When I thought about the fact that I would be ingesting 600-something milligrams of sodium into my body, I thought to myself, I ate this like all this time growing up. Speaking of pregnant, the store runs that I have been on with your random cravings, oh my God. They actually haven't been that outlandish.

So you're being a smidge dramatic. No, I'm not being a smidge dramatic. No. I went to the store when eating was pregnant. This is my first time. I didn't know Eden was pregnant. All day. I said Eden when you was pregnant.

When you was pregnant with Eden. They're starting young. To get one apple. Yes. One apple. Correct. I felt so stupid. That's good stewardship.

I didn't have you by five and waste the four. Do you know how dumb you look, ringing them one apple? I look straight. This is what you're broke. This is what you're not telling people. We lived in Oak Park in Chicago, and literally, literally, the grocery store was next door to us. There was our apartment parking lot, and there was the grocery store parking lot. He literally just had to walk two minutes.

That was what the point. Have I ever had, have I ever asked you for one? Have I ever asked you for one apple? She didn't even apart out. It's, it's, one, it was a blizzard. It was, one, it was a blizzard. And then two, I'm not even talking. about how close it was.

I didn't care about the day. I'm just saying how stupid I felt ringing on one apple. Well, the Lord says that you've been brought with the price so you shouldn't be slaves of men. It doesn't matter what people think about you because you are free and loved and fully accepted in Jesus Christ. People always got to bring up scripture.

Because it's profitable for teaching and training and righteousness. Oh, my goodness. This is start this podcast, man. It's always useful. What do you mean? Okay, so today we wanted to talk about fame, Which is a, I guess, a random topic to broach, but I wanted to discuss it because it's a topic that I've been thinking through reading about for a couple of years now. And it intrigues me. Not only, like, it intrigues me in the sense of like seeing what it does to people on both sides. So seeing what it does to the famous person and seeing what it does to the people that make people famous. Yeah. And it's just, it's just intriguing. I guess. I don't even know where to start with this.

I don't know. I feel like we have some level of celebrity in the Christian world of course. I feel like you famous. That's what they say. Yeah, yeah. And I don't know. So let me ask you this. How do we determine that?

I don't know. Who or what determines fame? I don't know. Right. So I guess the way. Is it followers? Because I know people who are technically famous or have reach because of books they've written, but they don't have as many followers.

But if you go to a conference where they're speaking, they have a line, right? Yeah. Yeah. So how do you? I don't know. I think, I think it varies. I think it, like I said, it depends. You know, we have, I know people who they can't walk out the door without somebody

recognizing them. Right. We're recognized in certain spaces, you know what I'm saying? And so I think that fame is subjective, I guess, who you, depending on who you, you know. It is. I remember I watched this documentary that Beyonce put out some years ago where she brought these two cats from a country in Africa to teach her this dance. And when they showed up, they said, what's your name?

Yeah. I said, this is one of the most famous women we saw in the world. Yeah. But there are parts of the world that don't even know her. And so I think that's intriguing how fame is not as far reaching as we think it is. Let me ask you this. Um, I've heard you talk about this a lot. I heard you ran about this on the couch.

Why does this topic intrigue you so much and what part of fame burdens you? So I guess that's a two part question. Because I feel like you are intrigued, but at the same time burdened by it all at the same time. I'll explain it this way. During the pandemic, I noticed that I started to think more highly of myself than usual. And I was wondering why that was. And so I talked to the Lord. I was like, Lord, I just, I feel like I'm just kind of like pad myself on the back a lot.

And I just, I really have a high estimation of like what I do and what I say and how I think and the wisdom I give. And I wonder why it's different than usual. And the Lord pointed me to my screen time. And he was saying, you're on social media more than you were before because you're at home a lot, which means that you're receiving. and ingesting more praise than you used to. And so what I saw was is that my esteem of myself was directly connected to me seeing and hearing and watching and reading everyone else's thoughts about me, which were all, for the most part, good.

And then I thought, man, I don't think we were created to be praised to this degree. That's not to say that it's people's fault that they are ever. verified and they express it or encouraged because the other thing would happen if I didn't know I would feel like man all this work I'm doing is anybody encouraged don't nobody care but it seems as if God is the only one that can be praised and still remain himself and so that's the fascinating part is that it really does change us yeah that's that's really good yeah I I feel like man like you know for the person who says I don't struggle with pride once I get praise or you know, I have this certain type of celebrity or my social status have, have grown and I

ain't struggle. I feel like they cap'n't. Like, you know. Or just not self-aware. Or just not self-aware. I feel like it affects us, you know. How has it affected you if it has? Yeah, I think it has affected me a lot, you know, I had those seasons where I was like, man, like, oh, I'm really dope. Like, people really think that I'm a great poet. And you know what? I agree. Like, you know, and I do think that I'm a good poet and a good communicator and all of those things. But it comes to time when you started to drink the Kool-A too much and

you let it go to your head, you know? And I had seasons why I had to tell people like, man, I don't, you don't have to. And so, like, for me, one of the things that helped me, I know you didn't ask this question, but this the first thing popped in my head. One of the things that that helped me was

one, being in a local community, where people didn't care who I was, but also doing little things that automatically got the attention off of me. Yes. Right? Serving. Yeah, serving.

Or even when someone I meet, like immediately starts to praise me for what I do, I immediately change the subject and I put the attention back on them and focus back on them and ask them their name and talk about something else. It's like, because I think that what you're saying is just like social media, we could do that in our personal, you know, lives. It's like we can like literally begin to just rest and soak in the praise of men. Yeah. Where it can low-key affect our hearts and our minds and make us think that we're way higher than what we are.

So I think we have to do the hard work of just, you know. Because I don't think that's a temptation that's unique to people who have, you know, public platforms. I think that can express itself locally. Yeah. Even before I had a public platform, I went to a church where I was esteemed, you know? So like people who have like giftings that are like public and praise. So usually if you're a teacher, a worship leader, admin don't never get praise.

Right. Like, man, you'd be fouling them. Oh, my goodness. How good. The way you filled out that Excel sheet, my Lord. You keep up with all of them. Follow you on Instagram. You keep up with all them emails.

Like, they don't, they don't get shouted out. But it's a skill, though. No, they should. But what I'm saying is, I think locally in our communities, there's this temptation that because I am the one that's heralded and looked up to and talked about most, it just kind of goes into because ultimately what it does is it it does something to your identity and i think that one of the things about fame that i really start to to think about is how what fame can do is that it

feels like a version of love so if someone says man like your poem or man your sermon or man your song did this to me or i follow you i love you da da like it literally feels like people love you. Yeah. And I think that's a part of the addiction is that I have all of these people that love me. The problem with that is, is that they don't love you really. No. They love what you can do. Yeah.

So as soon as what you can do stops, then what? What love is there really? Yeah. And so I think the love has to be in something much more stable, secure, and evidential, which is the love that God has towards me in Christ. That has to be enough. Because if it's not enough, then I'm going to look to human beings to feel that void. And they can't.

Yeah, that's real talk. Another thing that I think is problematic with fame is how the person who becomes famous begins to drift away from reality because of multiple different things. One of those things being they feel like they can't relate to normal people. people anymore or people who don't have platforms. Yes. Right. And so, for example, like, one of the things that, you know, I felt, you know, bothered by when I first started to grow a name for myself is everybody I meet equating

my real personality with arrogance because of who I am. Right. Instead of truly getting to know who I am. Yeah. You know, and it wasn't, I didn't gain friends with people who did. who didn't take the time to know me. Yeah. And so I think the dangerous thing for the famous person is, man, let me stray away from

these relationships that have become harder and only hang with famous people. But that's a temptation for every friend I know because you feel like it's harder for you to be accepted locally than it is for you to be accepted publicly. Because even for people like me, like I remember. when I started going to that church in Chicago and I had some people think that I was being I guess stuck up when it was simply that I was being an introvert and socially awkward

and so what they they see the Jackie that's on Instagram and that's on stages and they're like oh like she's a people person but it's like nah like in a room with some people Jackie's gonna be in a corner and so they were they were interpreting like my social awkwardness as arrogance simply because they're seeing me through the lens of social media. And that's really difficult.

And so I think for everybody that has some sort of platform, the tendency, like you said, is to drift and become a tribe with people that can relate to them, which is our tendency. We go towards communities where we feel safe. Yeah. But it was Brian who warned us against that. Yeah. And they say, it is your job. You are in the position where you have to do the work of helping people see you for who you are.

Yeah. You can't depend on people to do it. And so you got to invite people over your house. You have to bring down the walls. And it was tough. It was tough. It was, and that looked like we know y'all are very well known. But, you know, after church, don't be the first people to leave out.

Right. Associate with the people after service. Talk to talk to people. Make yourself known, you know. And yeah, it was difficult for me at first, you know. Similar to you, I had, you know, a lot of church boys. who just did not like me because of the way I've carried myself, you know what I'm saying? And they didn't have a context that I didn't grow up in the church.

And so the way y'all talk and the way y'all communicate, even the way y'all walk. I'm a, I'm a hood dude, you know what I'm saying? And I think a lot of people took my, you know, my personality for arrogance because of who I was. It was just like, no, like if you really get to know me, I feel like I'm a pretty, pretty easy going to do. I think the danger with that, though, and which is the reason why I pray for a lot of well-known people, is because I think that those relationships that I think become harder in the local community pushes us to just always be on a road, always be in front of people who can praise us publicly. Right.

Or to be around people who won't challenge us personally. Which is why people fall, who have really edifying public platforms. And then we fall because it's nothing more dangerous, in my opinion, than a person in the Christian community who has a public platform. and the only people who are affirming where you are in Christ are people that you are on a stage ministering to. Yeah, because they don't actually know where you are. No. The only thing they're able to observe is your gifting.

Yeah. And people, like, your gifting will always be brighter than your actual character. Woo! The gospel is at the center of our identity as believers. Jesus is death, burial, and resurrection over 2,000 years ago. go change the way we love and care for one another. And that's what Samaritan members do every day. Care for one another with the love of Christ when a medical need arises. Samaritan ministry started in 1994 when Christians from 10 households began paying one another's medical bills. Galatians 6-2

to bear one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ became a foundational biblical principle on which the ministry was built. As a member, you'll have biblical, affordable health care. If the care is received, your medical bills are sent to Samaritan ministry. and they'll notify members to pray and send money to help you pay those bills. When the body of Christ comes together to pray, encourage, and provide for one another, burdens are lifted and God is glorified. This applies to all areas of life, including health care. Learn more at samaritan ministries.org slash the paris.

Because it's not hard to walk in your gifting. It's not to write a poem, to sing a song, to, I don't know, sit behind a camera to play a track. Like those things don't, they take a kind of power, but not the necessary humility needed to be humble or to be loving or to be kind. Yeah. And so I think that we always have to reorient and recognize that the giftedness is not always evidence of intimacy.

Yeah. It's just not. Especially if I'm not close enough to this person to actually see how they are in real life. And that goes both, I think on both sides, like for the person who is trying to put this person like on a pedestal spiritually because of their gifts. We have to do the horror of knowing like, man, they are pouring into us. We get something spiritually from this person. But man, only the Lord and really that local community knows where they are. And so I think that we should take what we can get from, you know, public people.

Yeah, be encouraged. Be encouraged. But don't. Jesus. Yeah, but don't, you know, they're a man. Don't put them on a pedestal because, yeah, they got, you know, they boo-bo's thing too. Now, I think it should be said, though, that fame isn't inherently bad. No.

I think that fame is something that God allows people to experience. Even a bunch of our heroes throughout biblical history were famous. Moses was famous. Jesus was famous. I don't know if Abraham was famous. He was rich. Like, Solomon was. famous um jesus as you said paul was famous yeah um and it's jesus who's actually impressed me the most

there's this passage in luke five where it says um as the report of him grew as his name became more known he withdrew uh to the wilderness to speak with his father that's a paraphrase but this is luke 5 15 through 16 and that scripture has always been in my mind why because as Jesus got more popular, for lack of better words, what he immediately did was disappear to be with God. And it's just like, man, that's the model. Like, that's what you do. Because I think especially now that people make money from their platforms

and people's lives are sustained by what they put forward publicly, really we do the opposite, which is as the report grows, we lean into that. so it can grow more. Yeah. But Jesus does the complete opposite, which is as the report grows, he withdraws. Yeah. And it feels counterintuitive and it can feel like that's not wise.

Like, I got to support myself. I got to put myself out there. I got to post this. I got to do this. I got to keep the algorithms a certain way. But it's like, nah, like Jesus actually shows us the person that matters more than all these people is him. Yeah. And if he is like,

for example, I lost my track of it. Pause. The verse. Even like how in Luke where Satan tempts Jesus to turn stones into bread and he says, man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. I think there's some principle there where it's, okay, let's say your platform is dependent on you having some type of public stuff to put out. You got to put out a song or you got to put out some art or you got to that's fine do what you got to do but at the end of the day either God gives you bread or he doesn't yeah and so if he gives you bread then it's God that I'm trusting ultimately to provide my need not people and so if that's

the case I can disappear for a year and know I'm gonna be good why because God is still on the throne yeah I felt like that at times I felt like you know man the pressure to always post let me stay on top of it let me stay on top of my social media and now I don't have to have any problems with just going five days without posting. Yep. You know, because I know that the Lord is in control of, you know, my life. And also, too, like, I don't want to, I don't want my heart, which I have done in the past, my heart to get used to fishing for attention.

Right. Fishing for, you know. Doctomy. Yeah. You know, like, like, man, I can, I can be content with just being at home and not looking on my social media. without anybody saying anything about me. I'm still good with who I am, my family, you know what I'm saying,

and my time with the Lord. And so I do think that the Christian who has a public platform has to do the hard work. We've done it. Or private. Yeah, or private. Because that's another thing. Like, I think when we think about fame, fame is automatically in a lot of ways associated with pride. But, like, we all struggle with it a certain degree.

Because there's people who may not engage on social media, not because they're humble, but because they're fearful and cowardly, where they don't want people to see them as regular or mundane. And so they don't post at all. And it's like, that's not humility either. It's a false humility because your lack of engagement has nothing to do with holiness. It's simply, I don't want people to judge me. Wow, that's deep. Or you're probably comparing yourself to the famous person so much on social media. They have a standard in their mind they can't reach, so they do nothing.

Yeah, that's crazy. Do you think, when do you think the Christian should say, man, what's my question? When do you think, what's my question? Pause. Okay, I have a question for you. How do you think a Christian should deal with celebrity or fame? What is a healthy Christian who has fame? How does it look like?

Does that make sense? Yeah, I mean, I think there's a few things. I think you have to be very impressed with God. You have to. Because if you're not impressed with God, then all of the praise will meet more to you than what God says about you. For Jesus, when he came out that water and the father said, my beloved son I'm well pleased with you and now all those in Christ we get that same

commendation oh my goodness if that doesn't mean enough yeah like I don't know what to tell you yeah I think too I think honesty with God I think you have to tell God that you love the praise you have to tell God what is doing to you he knows already and so the confession isn't telling him something that he's ignorant of it's simply giving room for God to now fill in those spaces and be the bread that you need and be enough for you. Community, having real friends that love you for who you are. Opportunities to serve that you're not applauded for is a big deal too. And then I was going to say, I think I've tried to be very intentional about sharing my platform.

Yeah. And so what I see sometimes is people hoarding their platform because they don't want to give room for anyone else who is in their same lane to supersede them. Which is, you know, I love the scripture, Philippians 2-5. That's the definition of humility. Right. Christ and I count of himself with God, the kind of quality of God to be grasped but humbled himself, but emptied himself or whatever.

And so that's what humility is, is this privilege, which fame in a lot of ways is a privilege and letting a lot of their privilege go to serve someone else who don't have that privilege. Yeah, it's a position of power. It's a position of power. And if I have the power, to give attention to you so that the Lord can extend your territory however he sees fit. I need to be willing to trust that this isn't this isn't about competition. This is about love at the end of the day.

Absolutely. And so like. And the advancement of the gospel. Yeah. That's the thing. I remember I remember when that that got to me is maybe 2010. My friend got signed to a record label. And this is right when I had started rapping.

and I was jealous because I was like I rap better than her like how she gets signed and I didn't get signed and I didn't get signed and I felt like the Lord was telling me I'm paraphrasing what he said but isn't it interesting how you say that you care about my glory but then when I use your friend in a way for my glory you don't like it it's literally like I'm saying God I want you to I want I want to be like I want you to be like I want you to glorify yourself through me in the ways that I like that I want but when you do that through other people now I feel away. So it really wasn't about glory at all. It was just about you. And so I think that's a part of when you love Jesus and you love the gospel and you want his fame to go throughout. There is no competition. We are all doing the same thing, which is going there for and making disciples of all nations and baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost. You better quote the whole scripture.

On period. And so that hoarding stuff, quoted, you heard of quote the Holy? That has to stop. I don't like that. Another thing, though, that I see, I think the person who has some level of celebrity or fame in the Christian community is, period. But, you know, it's hard to talk to non-Christians, but, you know, but I think we have to do the hard work of not trying to be what people expect from us. People who have some publicity. Yeah.

Yes. I think pastor's kids feel that the most. Absolutely. Because I think that I think the temptation is to to be what people expect and every time we be what people expect, it's harder for us to be known, truly. Yeah, right? As you really are. Yeah. And so nobody really knows you because you put on this.

That's true. This person. I was talking to a friend who just went to a very famous, famous friend person house or whatever. And he said this person came down the steps and like literally. looked like the person who was in the videos for like the last however many years yeah his his whole demeanor was performative his whole demeanor was like man came downstairs in his house shirt open glasses on it's like why you got glasses in in your house or whatever and you know and so and he was like man like i i i stayed two and a half hours at this very famous person house and i didn't

feel like i i i knew him i don't i don't know nothing about him which what i said to you you was I bet it's very vulnerable for that person for you to see him as he is and not as he's always presented himself as. Which is what I think you're saying. And that's the irony of fame, I think, is that at the same time that it makes you very egotistical, it also makes you very insecure. When the praise matters a lot, so does the lack of it. Yeah.

So it makes you just ins, like it just makes you. insecure and like it's a lack of stability there when we depend on people to boost us up but look at that look at the irony of that it's almost like drugs oh yeah it's dopamine it is dopamine it's almost like drug like the the the the the praise is like the high yes and not getting it's a crash and the fear of the fear of not getting that praise it's like cold turkey yeah and so and and i think that's what the insecurity comes in you know what i'm saying because this is Like, man, like, if I'm vulnerable and I'm myself, this person is going to think less than me than they think of me about me on Instagram.

Yeah, that's just a horrible life to live. You know what I said? And so, like, man, me personally, I don't ever want to get that famous why I have those type of temptations. If I'm afraid to be myself. Well, I think as long as you going out here and telling people that Jesus is God, I don't think you'll have to worry about it. that yeah I think it not to not to change the subject but I think that for the famous Christian

everybody don't have to do what I do but for the famous Christian who wants some humility do some street evangelism I'm so serious true I'm nobody know who you are don't like neither do they care half of the people don't know who I am and a lot of them hate me that's true a lot of them hate me and that's the reason why I love street evangelism so much because I'm on all the I'm on the P-I-A tour in front of all these people. I got all these followers on Instagram. People love me for my writing. And then when I go talk to the atheist, you are a-ho.

I hate you. Die. Die and go to no heaven because it doesn't exist. Die and go to no heaven. It's like, you need that. You know what I said? And so I love it. I love that for that reason.

And maybe I don't even, I haven't even thought about that until this day. But like, maybe street evangelism has kept me grounded in some ways. That's good. Maybe. be. So, you know, if you out there, go talk to somebody on the street and tell them about Jesus. Yeah. And I think just also being reminded of, I think that's in Corinthians where Paul, where he, he comes at the church in Corinth because they over here like, I follow Apollos. I follow Seifis. I follow Paul. He's like, who are we? He was like, ain't none of us die for you.

Right. And I think that says a lot, which is, man, like at the end of the day, the only one famous in heaven is Jesus. Yeah. And so let us function that same way now. It is worldly to treat people differently according to, you know, their power or their riches. That's literally called favoritism. And it's a worldly thing.

It's not what Christians should do. That does not mean don't honor people that have served you well. But it is to say, man, like the person that got zero followers and a person that got a million followers are both made in God's image and both have value. And so at the end of the day, it is what it is. Yeah. So hopefully that encourage people. And lastly, I just want to say, like, I think that, I think that for the famous Christian,

you know, the popular Christian, I think sometimes pointing back to Jesus can make them way humble and saying, you know, it's not about me, it's about the Lord and people can praise them even more. But I think about John the Baptist, like, when he was praised and he was like, no, like the man who comes after me, I'm not even. been worthy enough to tie his sandals or whatever. And I think it's a difference than how he pointed. It wasn't his false humility.

He literally was like, man, like, he could have took the praise. He couldn't have said nothing. You know, I don't think he would never necessarily would have been wrong. But I do think that there is a way for us with true humility to, to reject praise and to redirect it to the one who should be praised. You know what I'm saying? So I think that we have to be creative sometimes And how we do that

You know and not be a What's the word? Fake humble You know But do it in a way that that really points back to Jesus So whether that's going in your closet And like literally like Just not receiving the praise from others

And then when you do Like directing back to Jesus I don't know But just we have to do the hallwork of just man Directing the praise back to Jesus At the end of the day Amen. Well, that's 30 minutes.

Sound like it. Sound like it. Bye y'all. Peace. The gospel is at the center of our identity as believers. Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection over 2,000 years ago changed the way we love and care for one another. And that's what Samaritan members do every day. Care for one another with the love of Christ when a medical need arises.

Samaritan ministry started in 1994 when Christians from 10 households began paying one another's medical bills. Galatians 6-2, to bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ, became a foundational biblical principle on which the ministry was built. As a member, you'll have biblical, affordable health care. If the care is received, your medical bills are sent to Samaritan ministries, and they'll notify members to pray and send money to help you pay those bills. When the body of Christ comes together to pray, encourage, and provide for one another, burdens are lifted, and God is glorified.

This applies to all areas of life, including health care. Learn more at samaritan ministries.org slash the paris.