With The Perrys - Family and Parenting with Generations in Mind: A Conversation With The Ortlunds

Episode Date: November 4, 2024

The “unimpressive” life you live today is really important. Even the mundane matters. God is using it and will bless you and future generations through your faithfulness. These are reminders from Ray and Jani Ortlund, who join the Perrys on the podcast to impart their wisdom from their 53-year journey in marriage and parenting. Ray founded Immanuel Church in Nashville, where he still serves as the pastor to pastors. He and Jani together steward Renewal Ministries and recently wrote a book together called To the Tenth Generation: God’s Heart for Your Family, Far into the Future.   Follow the Ortlunds: https://www.instagram.com/rayortlund/ https://www.instagram.com/janiortlund/ https://www.threads.net/@rayortlund https://renewalministries.com/ Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi, Saints and Ate. How are you? How are you, sir? How are you doing a pretty face? Thanks. I messed up on my concealer. What's concealer? Is it stuff on your lips? That's like lip moisturizer. Conceal is what you put under your eyes to brighten your eyes or to cover dark circles. Your eyes are already bright.

Because I'm always exhausted. So I need to do something to wake me up. You understand? It makes me look like I'm up. It looks good. all the things. It looks good. I'm so proud of your makeup journey. You're going to start doing makeup for other people.

No, I'm not. Because their face is their face. I don't know how to make their face look better. You might learn. I don't want to. Can you imagine being that close on somebody's face? What about when our daughters get older? Since we're talking about family today, like, you know, as our kids get older,

you don't see you doing makeup for eating in autumn. Sure. But I also feel like... Sure. You know how like every start... I don't know why we started this conversation about makeup. But every era has its own makeup style. And I might still be stuck in 2000 when they're like, mom, it's 2042.

Like, I need you to, you know. Yeah. You get what I'm saying? Because when my mom in 1991, they wasn't like arching their eyebrows. They were just out here just going rogue with their eyebrows. Yeah, I hate when people put makeup on me when I have to like do stuff like I did for the 700 Club, a couple of weeks. You didn't like it. I looked like a powdered chocolate doughnut.

You didn't look dead, though. You didn't look dead. I was like, why do I look like this? I look really cakey. They kind of overly matify your face a little bit. Yeah, I'm like. But it's to eliminate the shine. I'm just giving casket.

But anyways. I do have a question. What? When you go to like barbershops and stuff since we're talking about aesthetics, like how does it feel to have somebody's hand that close to your lips? You know what? My old barber. That seems really intimate the way they just be on the knife.

After the ninth time, he did it. I had to tell him to stop. Why? Because he would take his bottom. He would take his thumb and press my bottom lip. And then he would take the razor. I'm not even lying. Why does he touch your lip?

He would take the razor. And so I would sit there like this. And every time I knew he's been doing, I would do this. Did you know even touch your leg? Yeah, every single time. And so I had to finally say, bro. I'm touching my lip, bro. I said, bro, you touch my lip every single time.

He said, why are you telling me that? because I want you to stop. Stop touching my lip, bro. Don't do it no more. And so he finally stopped. Yeah, yeah. We have Ray and Janie, or,

live with us. We are so sorry that y'all had to take part in this carnal conversation. I am so sorry that we just... Ray loves it. Yeah, you guys. I apologize. Don't apologize.

We're loving it over here. All right. How y'all doing? How y'all doing? Hey, we're so glad to be with you guys. Thank you for letting us enter into your... No, man.

That's your... It's a lot of saying. It's a real, real honor to have the Orleans here. If anybody has ever known me personally, and also even on this platform, I talked about like, probably like five men who've poured into my life significantly. And Ray has been one of those, one of those guys. The first time, you know, I went, went out to spend a significant amount of time with you. You got me in trouble because we went deer hunting.

And everybody who hates killing animals got mad at me that day. But we had fun. We had so much fun. But yeah, like you guys have just poured into our lives, encouraged us, giving us so much wisdom throughout the years. I remember the first time, well, when we moved from Chicago to Georgia, I don't know if you remember, but we made a pit stop at the Orleans and Nashville. You guys remember that?

I was convicted. Because we were so tired. We were driving all of our stuff from Chicago. And y'all were doing a whole 30. I don't know if you remember that. Oh, I'd forgotten. So it was fruit's vegetable. We only had one child.

Jackie was pregnant with our second. And we were so tired. And he was like, just stop here and just spend the night here. And the hospitality convicted us. Next level. We were like, this is what it means to be hospital. Because Janie, you had like baskets for everybody. Like, because it was, it was me, Preston, Eden, Dana.

What's your friend name? I can't think his name. Chuck E. And you had baskets for all of us. And like even with Eden, Eden was probably like, I don't know, two or three, like crayons and stuff like that. And you had the little car.

And I said, my God, I've never, when people come up by house, I don't think about them now. Because I think that's what hospitality is. Can we just brag on you guys for a little? Because I think that's what hospitality is. It's like, I was excited to get to Georgia, right? But y'all made me not want to leave.

I was like, I'm eating too good. Hello. Y'all fetters. Mm-hmm. Sugar-free. Sugar. That was Janney. No grains.

She's amazing. That was not me. So, man, we just thank y'all, man, for like being an example and you guys wrote an amazing book. An amazing book. We want to talk to you guys about all things family, you know? It's called To the 10th Generation. Yeah.

You want me to start? Yeah, you can start back. So early in the chapters, you took, first of all, I feel like we should give some context. How long you've been made? Mary, how did y'all meet? How y'all still here? How long do we have for this context? We got to establish some credibility here.

September 12th, 1968, about 4 o'clock p.m. on my college campus. I was walking from the dorm to the dining hall. And I saw a guy over there. I just met a few days before I was going to go say hi to him. I'm minding my own business, you know. I walk over there. By the time I get there, there's this gorgeous woman standing there. It's in 1968.

Yeah. And it's her first week on campus. I'm a great big sophomore. A few weeks later, I ask her out, I am, I'm done, I'm toast, I'm smitten. She's... My plan worked, mission accomplished. I've been wanting to get this guy to call me. So we started dating in college.

We dated all throughout and got, married when Ray was in seminary at Dallas Seminary in 1971. Wow. So we're coming up for 53 years. That is wild. That's crazy. She still likes me. Obviously, she's sitting right next to you.

That's amazing. That's amazing. Wow. I can't even, we just celebrated 10 years and I thought we did something. Right. Feels like the beginning. To me, I was like, well, that's a lot of years. But 53 years, that's longer than people have been a lot.

So that's crazy. It's just God's grace, man. It's God's grace. This might sound negative, but I do, I want us to be honest. Yeah. Have you ever wanted to give up? Hmm. And if so, how did you overcome that temptation?

Mm-hmm. Okay. What amazes me is how stupid and selfish and arrogant and, um, et cetera, I have been for so many decades and Janney found a way not to hate me and I've gotten to the place now

where when Janie chews me out I feel better because that tells me she's not intimidated she's not impressed anymore I feel good when Janney speaks her mind.

And I feel a little uneasy if I don't sense that. It's really become important to me. I just didn't get this for so many years. But by now I'm beginning to see when I can tell she's comfortable to tell me what she's really thinking and really feeling, that's the marriage I think God wants us to have, and that's what I want.

Because then I feel like maybe I'm not a complete jerk anymore. Yeah. So. Yeah. Now let me tell you what I really want. And that is not to make me look like the one who's made this marriage work. Because, yes, there have been times when I've wondered, wouldn't it be easier? And actually, the answer to that question is often, yes.

be a whole lot easier, but it would also be sinful, self-centered, and actually in the long run, awful. Yeah. So what I've had to do is get through the, what's the longest, shall we say, confrontation, maybe that three-day one in Libertyville. We'll tell them about that later. is to see that beyond it, there is hope. Because we made a promise to God, not just to each other. I didn't promise God I'd stay with him as long as I love him. I promised God I'd stay with him until he takes his final breath or I do.

Wow. Thank you. Okay. Are you going to tell them? No, we want all your stories. We want all the stories. That's why we're here. So there we are.

People call it the tea. We want all the tea. We're living in the Chicago area. And for about three days, we are in a foul mood. We can't even remember now what it was about. But he could do nothing right. I'm mad at her. She's mad at me.

And we're just, yeah. And so somehow somebody gave us tickets to an art exhibit at the Art Institute in Chicago. Yeah, yeah. Michigan Avenue. Yeah. So we're looking at this great art, walking the aisles. Man. At each other, but loving the art.

Yeah. And something happened when we were at the art exhibit. I don't even remember, but something inside us sort of cracked open, and we started to relax a little bit. The anger started to just sort of evaporate, and we settled down, we looked at each other, we thought, we're being ridiculous. and it's like we fell in love all over again. And so we just did this crazy pendulum swing from, to like I couldn't not,

I couldn't keep my hands off her. So on the way home, we're, Go ahead, Ray, you've started. We're going home to four teenagers. So we stopped off at a hotel on the way back. Hey. I did not expect that to be the thing, but hello. Yeah.

And so I had to, you know, I'm filling out the registration form. They asked me employer, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. And they're saying, yeah, right. Oh, yeah. Okay. So, but I'm pretty sure it's a lot of people listening who experience a lot of conflict with their spouses. And it doesn't resolve like that. doesn't happen like we're walking through our gallery, we look at each other's eyes and we're like,

oh, you were just being stupid, right? How do you work through your conflict usually and how do you get over those moments when you just seem to be not seeing eye to eye with your spouse? Like how does that look like in the life of somebody who's been married 53 years? Something that Ray has really helped me with, he asks to see it through my eyes. Help me to see this through your eyes. And then let's make it a win-win so that you feel seen, heard. I might not understand it all, but I am listening and I'm trying. And I want to try to meet you.

That's good. Yeah. Plus, Jesus calls us to love people. we don't like. Wow. And that's really hard. And there are friends who are listening into our conversation right now who are going to be loving people they don't like for a long time. Every single one of us has something that makes life almost unendurable.

That's built into this journey that we're going to. on. And one thing that helps, I think all of us is just not walk that journey alone. You've got to have somebody who knows what's really going on. And somebody who's praying for you, somebody who knows you can talk to them, and they're supporting you, and they're saying to you, don't quit. Don't quit. Call me anytime, but don't quit. And every one of us needs what a friend of mine calls a gospel posse. Who of us doesn't need that? Because if we're going to get through this, we're going to get through it by God's grace, and we're going to get through it together. That's good.

Let's stick together. That's good. I've heard that God puts people together whose wounds trigger things that God wants to sanctify. Yeah, that's good. And so in what ways has God used just each other to make, you get what I'm saying? Like the baggage you might have brought in, the lifestyle you might have previously had, the thought. you, the temperaments that God wanted to make better. Like, how has Janie helped you be more like Jesus and less like Ray, but more like

Ray in being like Jesus and vice versa? I came from an unchristian home for many years. My family came to faith later on in my childhood. And I grew up in a home where my father abused me physically for years. And Ray has helped that wound heal way deep down by showing me, Jackie, that Christ can so redeem a man that he can help a woman, love Jesus more, love her family, love him. Ray has taken that wound and stitched it up.

And the scar is still there, but it doesn't sting, it doesn't open, it doesn't bleed. I know it's there, but it's healed. And it wouldn't be if this man had not treated me as Christ treats his bride. That's good. That's wow. That's crazy. Amazing. Yeah.

Don't mess with my wife. I was like, I was going to say, you got to follow that. We wouldn't, we want to hear how she's helped you, but that was beautiful. All my life, I've been, I've been wondering, how can I finally be okay? Where does my okayness come from? I've always felt like I'm on the outside of things looking in. So when I was in high school, I thought, well, if I can be an athlete, I'll finally be okay. I'll fit in.

So I did. And it worked. But then the youth culture changed and I had to be a hippie. Being an athlete didn't matter anymore. So, okay, I can be a hippie. I was a good hippie. I was good at it. You were smoking weed.

No, I drew the line at that point. Oh, okay. He was like a kind of a hippie. He was a sober hippie. Yeah. He was a moral hippie. Self-righteous. Yeah.

And then, you know, I realized, oh, if I could become a scholar, That was the next phase in my 20s. Then I'll be okay and I'll fit in. So I did that and I was. But then as I lived with Janney, she loved me, the actual me, the outsider me. She loved me faithfully, consistently, all through that. And I think slowly it began to dawn on me.

maybe this outsiderness, this not okayness, maybe that's just a lie bouncing around inside my head. Maybe this is real. Maybe I am actually living with someone who loves me, the actual me. That began to sink in. And it helped me to. to stop being so ridiculous. Did your ambitions change when it sank in?

I still wanted to accomplish something with my life, of course. But I think I was freed to relax more, and I was freed to be more patient with how life unfolds so slowly. and I was also free not to put myself and my ego at the center of it all as the real story going on. So, yeah. And in fact, God did call me into scholarship. But it wasn't self-display anymore. Now that's kind of embarrassing to me when I have those thoughts and feelings.

It's just embarrassing. Yeah. It's a good embarrassment. Yeah. I've been, me and Preston have been talking a lot about, shame and how it affects oneness, especially when you are, in essence, afraid of your spouse. Yeah. You know, just like with Adam and Eve, hiding from one another.

And I feel like we're kind of in a place in the stage in our marriage where we're doing the work to undo shame. Yeah, for sure. How have you guys work through that impulse or that temptation to hide from, the person you're supposed to be one with. That's a really good question. Yeah. That is a profound question. Wow.

And insight. And I'm still working through that. I don't think I'm going to be happy inside my existence until I'm with the Lord. And I just want to be the best sinful jerk I can be for Janney. while we get through this. But that is so insightful. Yeah, that's a hard question to answer. Yeah.

To me, for me, it goes deep into my own relationship with Jesus. When I'm feeling shame, oftentimes I can bring it back to, and the Lord must be ashamed of me for this too. But if, and this is, how Ray has helped me so often. If I can feel the Lord's smile upon me, it's okay. I get it, Janney. Yeah, I had to die for that, but I did it. And I'm glad I did. Please, won't you come in? And that welcome, he refuses to let my shame build a barrier between me and him. That frees me and him. That frees me to offer myself to Ray. I don't do it very well, and he has to help me frequently.

But just tell him how I'm really feeling. I'm sorry. I've failed here. Yeah. One thing about marriage that's just built in is living together, I can't hide completely. Yeah. Yeah. So one of the things that that's hard but really great is just being noticed, being seen, being discovered over and over again. And she doesn't reject me. I really, I need you. I need you to keep loving me. And I didn't know that for years.

What do you mean? I thought, maybe some of your listeners think this too and viewers, that, oh, the Lord brought me to Ray to make him the man he ought to be. And so I have the wonderful, glorious privilege of showing him how he could change. And when you're in the pastor, there are a lot of other people that think that the pastor's wife can help the pastor change as well. Wow. So I would receive comment, suggestions, critiques. And of course, you know, each Sunday night, we talk about this in our book.

Well, you just Sunday night, we'd talk over how do you think Sunday went. And, you know, I'd say, oh, it was great, the sermon, this and that. But Mrs. McGillicuddy did say, you know, you should wear your, what is it, lapel pin on your right side, not your left, honey. Or you mispronounce his missionary's name again. Whatever. One Sunday night, I mean, this guy was working so hard. He was preaching three times on Sunday. He took me in his arms.

It must have been about 9 o'clock that night. And I was talking to when he just got my face and got me to look into his big eyes and said, honey, can I tell you a secret? Oh, yes, I love secrets. Every man on the face of this earth needs one person, only one, just one person who thinks he's okay and isn't trying to change him. Wow. Would you be willing to be that person for me? Boy, howdy, I didn't want any other woman lining up.

I'm just playing. I'm going to be behaved in front of the heartlands. That helped me. That's good. That helped me because I didn't understand what it meant to be a woman for me to think that he was okay. Right. Let me ask you this because you talked about rejection and, you know, how she doesn't reject you. but I've talked to a lot of young men who will tell you that rejection is a very hard thing in their marriage.

I think a lot of times men kind of build their worth on not being rejected by women in general, but especially the woman that they love. And so what does it mean when it says that she doesn't reject you? Does it mean she says yes to everything that you ask? does it mean, like, what do you mean by that? And what does not rejecting your spouse and marriage look like? What should it look like? I think it means, not rejecting means I don't regret making the commitment.

I'm not looking out my peripheral vision for an exit strategy. I'm in. I'm all in. And inevitably, that means our heart. hearts get deeply broken. When, not if, when our hearts are very deeply broken, and we're shattered, that is actually, if we're following Jesus, one of the most glorious and profound moments in life, we're actually beginning to discover how God feels about us. we have broken his heart.

And he still says, I'm all in. And so is it painful? Deeply painful. Maybe long-term painful. But that's when we also begin to discover, oh. So I've parachuted into a universe where ultimate reality is love that suffers and doesn't walk away. That's how I'm loved? I did not know that.

That's amazing. It's good. Yeah, that seems to be peering into what Paul means when he says marriage is a mystery. Yeah. It's like a, I remember we had a situation with one of our children that was rough and tense. And there was a sadness. with what they were battling and going through. But the sadness was also like with this deep love.

And it was just this strange feeling of like, I am so sad. And yet I'm still drawn towards you to help you and be for you. And I remember texting Dr. Sarita Lyons, a woman who like kind of mentors me a little bit. And she was like, now you're feeling what God feels towards his children. Yeah. And I was like, oh, so he loved me and he'd be sad. all at the same time. Like it was like, so like it's like your, the scenarios, the life state like as a parent,

as a wife, as a husband, as a whoever, all of it positions you to, to share in what Christ, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, because even the, the idea that God tells husbands to love our wives like he loves the church, when in actuality we would never understand the depth of their love. So he's telling us to do something. that we will never really understand. That's interesting. Like we can never really understand how deep and how wide

and how vast God's love is for us. But he's telling us to love our wives in that same way. And I think it does trickle down to children as well. It's kind of like, man, like I'll never be you, but you're telling me to be you, to be like you, you know. But it's as if, like what he said, there's some level of understanding that you will get by loving without fear. You know what I'm saying?

Because I think we all have a fear of rejection because we all don't want pain. Like nobody wants to hurt. And it's like what God has called us to do requires us being content with the potential of pain. And also too, just being content with just being perfected like through his righteousness. Because like you said, you've kind of, you've kind of, dealt with the idea that you're never going to be perfect until you get to glory. And so, like, we have to just deal with this constant tension that we will never be like God.

Like, we will never be perfected. Like, you will never love Janney perfectly because you're a fault. You know what I mean? And so I think that we just have to be content with just adopting his righteousness, being in Christ. And be patient. And being patient with ourselves. Go ahead. Here's a crazy idea.

What if our wedding day euphoric, though it often is, what if that's the worst day of our marriage? And it starts getting good from there. We started this upward trajectory through disappointment, through surprise, through agony, and through pain. That's when, I mean, I had no idea what I was getting into when we got married. How old are y'all? 221. Okay. Yeah.

And I've never thought this before. Maybe our wedding day was the worst day of our marriage. And then it started getting good from there. That's good. What I'm interested in is Janet came to you with critiques. Good critiques. You know, where to lapel pen write.

You know, pronounce the missionary's name correctly. That's fair, that's legitimate. Your response, though, is what intrigues me because you didn't respond like mean, like get out my face, woman. You know what I'm saying? And I remember seeing something from John Piper one time where he said something like sanctification, it changes our default response.

Like we want our default, our impulsive response to be Christ-like. Where were you at with the Lord, where you were able to have a default response that was still loving. It was a lucky mid-court three-point shot. Oh, no. You believe that. That's a great question. I've never thought of it that way.

I don't know how to answer that, Jackie, because, I mean, honestly, you know every now and then, God gives us a grace that it's so surprising. It has to be character. Let me ask you this, though. It is character. It has to be. Because I know you, you know.

you have great great character and this reason is we love interviewing people that we know and you're one of the most humble men I know and you're not going to say this about yourself you are a man of great great character that's why Jackie like when I go to your house Oh he gets me sickly with you

I don't every single time Can I go hunting with Ray? Absolutely you should He comes back holier Every time I literally texted the other day like Ray wants me to come up this winter Okay.

Like, you didn't even ask me a date. You didn't say, I don't care. Do it. So, so, yeah, you're a man, a great character. I remember the first time I spent time with you, we were in the South and we were like, I'll never forget this. Oh, Lord. You said, you said, now there'd be some racist people around here.

Yeah. You looked at me in my eye. You said, but we ride together and we die together. I said, I'm safe with this man. Yeah, you are. Yeah you are. But my question is, were you irritated? Were you irritated?

Did you give that irritation to the Lord? Like how like, because I think that's such a healthy way to deal with conflict and to deal with tension, right? And so when your wife comes in, you know, sometimes women can be a little bossy. Sit down. Taste this. Don't go there. Go out of street. Bernie.

Stop. Okay. Turn. Okay. You know. You know, so how do you deal with that conflict of not getting angry and were you irritated? Well, in God's mercy at that moment, I think I knew that Janney loved me and wanted to help. And her heart was gold, right?

So I just wanted to, I was thinking, we've got a great marriage here. That's what's being manifest, okay? but it can be even better. So it was a moment of God's grace. But let me tell you, on the way down here, on the flight from Nashville to Atlanta, driving to the airport this morning, I was in a foul mood.

And that's just the truth of it. So don't be impressed. I've got, I had a bad day this morning. It's getting better really fast. Thanks God. Yeah. That's good. It's really great.

in the bad move 30 minutes ago, so it's okay. I understand. Cry out and everything. That's good. You know what? We're all a mess. Yeah. But Jesus, he is the world's greatest expert in redeeming mess.

That's good. He's great at it. Yeah. He's world class. How did your marriage change? when your kids moved out. Ooh. It's fun.

A lot more fun. The first of our four children that left, I whipped. And when the last one left, we broke out the champagne. Man, because we have four kids. And I can't imagine our house without kids. I just can't do it. Right. Because they're so loud.

and it was one week like I literally was asking the Lord like Lord I just want to just sit here and just be quiet and watch football like I bought this big TV for me yeah but like cocoa melon is always on it like it's just like I love my children but I don't want to watch Mickey Mouse Clubhouse enough is enough yeah and I've heard that like I've heard how couples can be so absorbed and parenting for so long that when the children leave, the marriage is awkward and uncomfortable. But what I was going to say is my dad came over three days after that happened, three days after I had that thought.

And I was praying with an accident of Lord to just help me because I just want peace. And my dad came and sat right here on the floor. And I'm at the island and he's just looking at my kids and he's got tears in his eyes. And then I'm like, what's wrong with you, Pop? and he said, it's just so much life in your house. And I was just like, I think that just convicted me.

Right? Because what, I want peace. But my dad for the first time, like in my house, he was like, it's so much life here. Like, I want the noise, you know. And that's just, I think we often deal with the tension of wanting something, you know what I mean? Yeah. When it leaves or whatever. And so how did you guys deal with the tension of your children?

children leaving. You know, when early on, we had three kids in three years and it was busy. And a friend, an older friend, said, we did the same thing when we were newlyweds. And we realized, okay, this season in life had a beginning. This season is life is going to have an end. At any given moment, however crazy it might be, we're just between those two points. and this is going to end and when it's over, we're going to miss it.

However, crazy it is right now, we're going to look back on these years and wish we could do them all over again. So why not enjoy it? Wow. That really helped me. That's good. That's good.

This book is called, I'm sorry, go ahead. No, you got all the wisdom. Go ahead. Oh, did you hear that, honey? I think it's on tape, right? I'm going to play this part back often. You do have a lot of wisdom. But we do talk about this in the book.

Why do we have children? I wanted them just to be a mama, just to have something in my own and something shared with Ray. I wanted to invest in them. But ultimately, God gives us children to keep his kingdom plan going. Yeah, that's right. And so Ray and I, through the years, we had to talk about that. We've got these kids. raising them for a purpose and we're sending them out for a purpose. So when it came time for them

to leave, in a sense, we felt mission accomplished, even though our hearts were sad and the house was quiet. I mean, it was easier for me. I didn't have to feed six of us every night. I didn't have as much laundry and schedules, you know, all of it. But we wanted to raise our kids for Christ. So yes, we were sad when they left. The house felt empty. But that's what we've been called to do. You have this verse that inspired the book. Well, you don't have it. The Lord has it. But, you know, Deuteronomy 23, verses 2 through 3 says, no one born of a forbidden union may enter the assembly of the Lord, even to the 10th generation. None of his descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord. When you read that verse, what happened?

Jenny was doing her annual Bible read through. I mean, she's the one who taught me to do that. And she's in Deuteronomy 23 of all pastures. Go figure. She reads that verse. I just was startled. This didn't sound like the God I knew. I really had to think it through.

We know every page of the Bible is pointing to Christ. how did this work out? So I had to start thinking it through. And Ray, you helped me. Yeah. And we both realized if God, for good reasons back in that moment in history, if God excluded people to the 10th generation, how much more would he delight to include people to the 10th generation?

The whole gospel message tilts over toward the mercy and the embrace, the open arms of God. So that began to sort of... Mess with us. It messed with it. It expanded our categories. We were thinking in terms of as a family, we got children, we got grandchildren. Now we began to realize, for crying out loud, we're actually pushing dominoes over in history to the 10th generation.

And God is sort of like tapping us on the shoulders saying, let's think about that. Your life is way bigger than you realize. family is way bigger than you realize. So we did the math. We got, okay, here, two of us in generation one. Four kids, they're married, so now that's eight people in generation two. Fifteen grandchildren so far. It's conceivable they could get married. So that's 30 people. Yeah. So two become eight, become 30. And you've got in three generations, 40 people, and we just did the math. We're not statisticians, but if that, you know how that goes up exponentially. So 10th generation from now, it could be 55,000 people. Wow. Wow. That's crazy. From the two of us. That's crazy. Yeah, it's our

fault. I mean, you know, it's all. It's our fault. So we can't say, you know, they don't matter. We'll be in heaven. Well, we do now matters and how we're born to them. Exactly. Exactly. That's amazing. One of the, oh, you got a question. I was just going to connect that thought to something the Lord said to me a couple weeks ago. We were at church during like a prayer night and I was just praying for our children, praying for our marriage. And I really like sense like the Lord saying like the attacks on your marriage on your parenting. It's not really about y'all like that. It was like he like the enemy has generations in mind. And it was this, it was this. It was this. It was this. It was.

It was like you think too small. Like this is at like it's it's it's a big deal what happens if y'all choose to persevere. Yes. And so I think I think this book is so necessary and this conversation is so necessary because I don't, I don't know if we often think that way. Yeah. But we know it. We've been affected generationally. Yes.

But I don't know how much we think about the way we could affect in a positive sense the next generation. Because that's what I was thinking about as I was reading this book this morning. Because I've read family books and I've heard quotes from family books before. But for you guys to focus on how, like, how the Lord wants to impact us throughout generations. So, like, you said one line in the book, you said, and it just convicted me as a father, you said the greatest gift that we can give are your children is the sense and wonder that the real Jesus loves you and you love the real Jesus. What do you break that down? Well, that's what my dad gave me.

It was the gift he gave me. My dad was the real deal. He was a pastor of a ginormous church, but it's not like, you know, there was one guy in the pulpit and a different guy at home. One and the same. I had a front row seat for 18 years watching an authentic man of God live every day. what an incredible privilege and I've forgotten most of the things

my dad ever said to me but I can never forget who he was and Preston your kids are going to forget many things that you say to them along the way not everything but many things but 30 years from now 40, 50 years from now

when you're in glory your children will remember and will revere who their dad was. And there will be moments of suffering for them. When they will be so inspired by remembering you, even when you're not present, you will be present. You'll be a presence in their lives, and they will turn aside quietly to weep. They'll be so moved by who their dad was all those years.

And they will be strengthened to go on and go on and go on in Christ. And you don't have to make that happen. God will orchestrate that for you. You just be faithful today, be an authentic man of God today. And that'll be compelling for generations. If I wasn't broken, I'll cry. No, you can just cry tonight. I can cry tonight.

I'm going to cry myself to sleep tonight. That was beautiful. See, this world, every day this world belittles us and tells us we don't matter. And mistreats us. It says, all you are is part of a market niche. All you are as part of a voting block. And then we open up the Bible and God tells us how much we matter. bigger categories than we ever thought.

Let's just dare to believe it. Let's dare to believe it. Lay hold of it. Wow. Wow. The blessing, he says, I can't remember where Ray and Isaiah somewhere, the blessing is for you and your children and for those who are far off. That's what we're praying. This book will help families to see that the mundane,

every day, unimpressive life. You live, we live, we all live day to day that seems in a way monotonous. Yeah. Somewhat boring sometimes. It's really important. God is using it and he will bless you. Yes. And he'll bless your kids through your faithfulness and then all those who are far off. God hides the glorious inside the monotonous every day. That's good. He's great at it. Wow. You were going to read something? No, I was just referring to that first. Okay. You go ahead.

You guys, so you went to school for a long time, got all the PhDs and all the things. You wrote some of the ESP Bible. All the stuff. He's a legend. Y'all led a church. How long were you pastoring and how long were y'all serving your church? Well, at Emmanuel Nashville. Well, he's pastored most of his life except the few years he was a professor.

Is that what you mean, Jackie? or the last church. Basically, like, how long were you active, not saying you're not actively in ministry, but you know, like leading a congregation, how long was that? 45 years. My question then is,

how did both of you not give more energy to ministry than you gave to your children? Yeah. Than to our children. Wow. I'm not sure we always did, Jackie. I wish we could say that. I mean, we tried,

but we failed a lot. Fortunately, the Lord's grace covered a lot of that. Jenny kept me on track many times. I needed my wife to tell me when enough is enough. And the family needs attention. The greatest conversation we had in the first decade of our marriage was seven years in. I was looking. Conversation, he calls it.

We all know what it was. I was working crazy hard, doing way too much. And I forget how she got to this topic, but I didn't see it coming and I didn't have time to duck. And she was so gentle that she didn't scream at me. But what she said was, Ray, the children and I will always love you. We're not sure we'll always have you. I had two thoughts immediately.

One, she's right. I can't deny it. Two, I've got to change. Because I was pastoring full time. I was doing graduate work and so forth. And I was not attending to my family. And she didn't scream at me. She had a gentle conversation that flew in under the radar.

and detonated self-awareness. And so my wife has really, really helped me. But I should have known better because my dad, you know what he used to do? This was so fun. He's a busy pastor, right? And when he's not satisfied that he's had enough time with his son, on a Sunday night he would say to me,

this happened a bunch of times. He'd say, you want to skip school tomorrow? you want to go to the beach want to go surfing I like that we used to do that sometimes I'd say yeah

we haven't done it lately but we used to have the girl skip school and just yeah my oldest she loves that yes yes okay that's been

an awesome dad yeah and so Tuesday morning he'd write a note you know I'd take it to the office at the school and explain my absence

that Monday I hadn't had enough time with my son so I wanted to be with him so we would went to the beach and they'd always mark it unexcused. He didn't care.

Yeah. That's dope. That's a dope dad. Yeah, because that's, I think that's something that me and Preston have, you know, we think about often is something I think about often just because I have a tendency to overextend myself because I like accomplishing things. And I, but I think there's a certain degree where that does get in the way of being able to And this season, it's just so much stuff to say yes and no to. And it seemed like when we say no to something, it's something else that pops up.

And it's just something always to do. And so, like, even, you know, a lot of times when my travel season is heavy and just the disappointment that my oldest child gets over and face when I'm going out of town again. Yeah. And I was just like, ah, man, you know. And so that wrestle, our oldest is nine, you know. And our youngest is two. Oh, man. Yeah.

And so, like, just, just, that's good wisdom, you know, to glean from you guys from because it's like we're in the thick of it now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In the book, you talk about making your home, I might be wording it wrong, but making your home like heaven. And you kind of talk about, like, cultivating the way you want your house to be, like a culture. Yeah. What are some of the, like, tips?

I don't like that word, but it's the best word I got right now. What's some of the like perspectives that y'all brought into conversation with each other to determine what will the culture of our home be like? My wife, Janie, was brilliant in creating an actual physical environment in our home that would make it easy for our children to believe in Jesus. There were toys that were appropriate and fun and safe. there were books that were interesting and enriching. There were places where the children could be children and be safe. And yet there were rules as well. So they had to exercise restraint and self-awareness.

And in this book, one of the things that we tried to convey is that very thing, Jackie, at a practical level, If we're thinking generation, 10 generations, we've also got to think today. Yeah. Because that's why today matters so much. Yes. So, Janie has some great tips. That's a great word.

Great tips for how a home can be a place where children grow up feeling loved, believing in Jesus, and knowing how much they matter. Yeah. And I think we needed to, in a sense, boil it down to a couple. So we just didn't feel like there's so much out there. We decided there were two things we really wanted to treasure in our home. God's Word and each other.

So Ray, I mean, as you all know, he's brilliant with the Bible. He's a theologian. He's got all this wisdom with God's Word. And sometimes it's hard to get it down on the kids' level. I taught second grade for many years. So we helped each other. But we tried to help our kids see that this is the most important thing in our home. More important than our television, more important than our candy bowl, more important than our to-any-thing.

This. More important than money. Yes. So treasure God's word. And then treasure each other. Ray helped me think through, what does that mean? I grew up in a home where there was yelling, and we decided we wouldn't run out of the room and slam a door when we're angry. You know, there were just certain things, how we treat each other.

What does it mean when the Bible says, be kind to one another? That's good. So it's like we have an always never list. We always want to do and say things like this. we never want to do and say things like this. A short list so we can, a workable list. Yeah. Yeah.

Even something small you put in the book about the book was like, yeah, the Bible's not a coaster. And so the way our children treat the Bible matters. Like this is sacred. This is special. We don't throw the Bible all over the place real flippantly. And I've tried to instill that. I think when it comes to just books in general is that I put books everywhere. And I don't even can you.

Our children love. They'll be like this. I don't even care if it's upside down. Just get used to it. Get used to time. Because to me, literature means I'm setting you up to want to know the Bible. Somebody asking that on a Q&A a couple of months ago. Like, what was the thing that your wife has done with your children that has been the most impactful?

I don't think I told you that. And I said the way she teaches them to read. Oh, gosh. They just love to read. And so like they're going to be born with books. You know. And so she's done a really, really good job of that. I have a question.

And it's kind of off topic of what we were just talking about. I'm really loving this conversation. It's very, very insightful. If I'm honest, when I'm fathering my children, I often think about my children. I don't think about the next generation. I just don't think about my children's children, right? And so how do you even cultivate a mind of thinking about the next generation

and how does thinking about the next generation, how can that impact your current generation? Does that make sense? You know, something Jenny did that really helped me is, again, she does this annual Bible read-through, right? So when this to the 10th generation insight kind of left off the page at her, she began to mark every verse where God talks about the generational impact of the gospel. And we were both really surprised at how frequently the Bible talks about this. We began to write those verses down.

And that alone helped us. It was like we'd always sort of jumped over this. those words in the Bible. It made no impact on us at all. Suddenly we realized we're missing something God is doing. And so when we finally began to underline those verses, list those verses, talk about those verses together, that's when our whole mentality changed. We began to see out into the future. And if a generation is, this is just a quick turnaround, 20 years, We want to think about our family 200 years out. Now, we're not here to control them.

Can't do that. Only God has that sovereignty. We are here to invest in them. We're here to pray for them. And we're here to love them in advance. Trusting that long after we're in heaven with the Lord, if we pray to an eternal God, then our prayers are not limited in time.

Our prayers are active through time because they've gone to God, the eternal one. So our prayers are going to be present, long time. Everything. That's really good. Thanks. Thank you, guys. This is a great conversation.

Appreciate you. If you enjoyed this episode, which I'm pretty sure you did, go get this book by the Orleans to the 10th generation by Ray and Jenny. They've been some mentors to us. They're great men and women of God. And I think this book will bless you for generations. So go get this book. When will the book come out?

It's out now. It's out now. It just came out. Okay. It just came out. So you can go order it on Amazon and wherever books are sold. Before we close, Mr. Ray, would you mind praying for the family? that are listening to this podcast.

I would love to. And we also want to say, thank you for being our friends. Thank you for letting us come today. Thank you for sharing your ministry with us. And there is a reason why so many people look to you and listen to you. You are the real deal. You have an authentic love for Christ and you have depth and insight and courage.

You are utterly fearless. in being a voice, a prophetic voice for Jesus. I appreciate that. We want to be more like you. No. We want to like y'all. All right. Well, let's pray.

Thank you. Father in heaven, we're not who we tell ourselves we are. We are who you say we are. And we really matter to you. Our children, our grandchildren, great-grandchildren. You're already planning. you're working toward them through us. Our lives matter more than we ever would have guessed.

And we receive that significance, that gravitas. We receive it as a precious gift, and we give it back to you. And we ask, Lord, in each family, each dad, each mom, who are listening to this today, that they will be deeply encouraged, that they will have freedom of heart to believe how much they really matter and give every one of us the grace to keep going and keep living for you and praying and hoping and loving. Come what may. For that sacred gift, we ask, and we ask you to give it to everyone listening in the holy name of Christ. Amen. Amen.

With the Perrys is produced by the Perrys with support from Amanda Reed and Channing McBride. Video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley. Edited by the team at Tread Lively. Artwork by Hop and music by Swoop. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.