With The Perrys - Figuring Out Biblical Womanhood

Episode Date: July 14, 2025

After their “Act Like a Man” episode, the Perrys thought it would be beneficial to also have a conversation on womanhood.   When Jackie first became a believer, she felt as though many books she read on womanhood leaned heavily on cultural contexts or norms instead of Biblical frameworks. As she has become more comfortable in her femininity, she’s learned more about what it looks like to show up as a woman in everything God has called her to, whether that be marriage, motherhood, or ministry. Jackie and Preston discuss women’s unique interpretations of scripture because of experiences men can’t relate to, why a wife’s submission to her husband is an act of tremendous strength, and how women’s voices can be prioritized and dignified in the church.   Scripture references: Genesis 16 (the story of Hagar) Ephesians 5:22-24 & 23 1 Peter 3:5-6 Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What up, Bucco? It's the Saints and the Ains. It's the Saints and the Ains. Not the little snap. It's the Saints and the Ains. I feel like we need a refresher on what I mean by Saint and Aint. What do you mean about St. Saints? I think it's self-explains or you don't think so?

I mean, we have a pretty biblically illiterate climate amongst Christians, and so I'm never going to assume anything. Saint is another term for Christian. We see Peter use it where he references us as saints, meaning we are not perfect, but we are being perfected. And ain't is a saint without the S meaning. You ain't being perfected. You haven't been redeemed.

You haven't met the Lord of hosts. You haven't been saved. You don't have the Holy Ghost. You might be on the way to somewhere hot and hellish. What the hell? what the hellie what the hellie ante what the hellie anse

that I think that's the distinguishing but we're saying all are welcome that's what I was just about to say all they're welcome here saints and a ain't it's a very welcoming song like you know I'm pretty sure

throughout the years you know some ains was like oh I feel welcome here I hope you felt saved or not felt I hope you got saved at some point I don't want you to just I don't want you to be

I don't want you to be too safe here for too long. Did we take December out? We did not take our dog out. We're bad dog parents. We? I'm a bad dog parent. He's my responsibility. I'm sorry. Would you mind if I take my hair out while we're talking?

I don't care. It's your house. I have a photo shoot later. Quiet December. I need to take my hair out. And I felt like this would be really efficient if I could just take it. Keep that in. Don't take that. We want people to know we do real life over here. If I could just do it. Everything ain't got to be perfect without podcast. If I could do it all at the same time. So I might tell December.

required because he could hold his P for an hour. But anyways. Truthfully, Eden needs to take him out. But go ahead. Man, so a couple of weeks ago, we had a conversation about manhood. And it was very fruitful throughout the weeks. You know, a lot of women have hit me up and said, man, this conversation was very beneficial because it gave me a framework of how to actively love my husband, my father,

my boyfriend, my brother, my brother in Christ, et cetera. but we also had a good amount of men who reached out and it was just like, yo, this conversation was very helpful, was very freeing, especially the part where, you know, we talked about like men being afraid. It's something about taking your hair out during the podcast that feels like, you remember when you was in class and you drew?

I was like a sentence. I know, but you know, like when you would draw while the teacher was teaching and there was something about drawing while they were talking that actually allowed you to focus a little more. Oh, so you're focused on me? Yeah, like I feel like really intently

invested, even though it looks like I'm not. Thank you for telling me that I feel seen again. But, no, we thought it would be beneficial to do a conversation about womanhood. You know, I think one of the things that I've consistently got like, people spoke into my life often about me and your ministry, an old church mother, an old auntie, not an old auntie, but one of my auntie said that, you know, God used the foolish things of the world of shame the wise. And I think about how I came from unlikely circumstances and God used me to be a Bible teacher to porn to men when I didn't have a father, when I didn't have the typical upbringing that you would typically like, you know, expect a man from this type of upbringing to porn to men.

And I think the same thing can be said about you. I think when it comes to womanhood, God has obviously used you to speak into the lives of women so clearly as far as Bible teaching, empowering. women to be able to be accurate and all the things. But, you know, historically, you haven't been like the prototype when it comes to like girly girl, you know, wear sundresses and red bottoms and all the things. And so I think the first question I want to kind of shoot to you is, you know, how would you define womanhood? And back in the day, you also had a quote, you also had a poem called what is a woman where you kind of walk this through being a woman. I'm going to be honest.

I feel like I don't really have, because even this conversation is, I hope, very fluid and honest in the sense that I don't have like a lecture prepared for womanhood. Because when I first became a believer, especially coming from where I come from, I read a lot of books about womanhood. I listened to a lot of sermons about it, and I think it was helpful, and you can't get on your phone, me and conversation.

Like, me taking my hair down, and you're getting on your phone. Those are two types of different distractions. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. That's two types of different things. Go. You know, one is in preparation for a photo shoot.

You know, that is like, oh, you just ain't even care what I'm saying. No, I do care, me. I promise. Okay. I promise. I promise. So I was reading a lot of books about womanhood

and things like that. And one thing that for me, I'm not saying that anybody else should do this. For me, what made me retreat a little bit is that it felt like a lot of the books, sermons, podcasts were not necessarily just biblically based, but culturally based. And so it felt like they were using scripture alongside a kind of evangelical, white, woman framework and applying that like to everybody. You know what I'm saying? In a sense where it was just like, oh, this kind of biblical womanhood demands me to be a

stay-at-home mom, demands me to homeschool, demands me to show up a certain kind of way. Like my affect, I can't be, I guess, direct or aggressive. And this is a, this is a, this is low key hyperbole. I'm not saying that every single book was like that. But like when I would read them all, it felt like the way y'all are defining biblical womanhood looks like y'all. It doesn't look like me. Yeah.

And I backed away from it because I had to, I wanted to wrestle with God and let him define me. Yeah. And let the scriptures define me. And even let my life with you define me. let my life of my children, let my community define me so that I wouldn't try to live out a version of womanhood that was actually unnatural. And so how I would define it is simply that I am a woman made by God for his glory with particular callings to Stewart, to be a wife, to be a mother, to be a friend,

to be a communicator, to be a writer. And all of these things are colored by my femininity. All of these things are colored by my history as a woman. All of these things are colored by the way God communicates to me. So, for example, my womanhood doesn't just impact who I am with you. It impacts how I teach or how I see scripture. So when I was working through Genesis about Hagar, I think that's Genesis 16, I could be wrong, I remember asking questions of the text that none of the commentators were asking.

And that's because all of the commentators were male. What was some of those questions, if you can remember? Like, one, nobody was addressing the fact that Abram had sex with Hagar and you see nowhere in the text where she gave him permission. No one's actually seeing that he never asked her. Yeah. But that's because she doesn't have the autonomy. And so this is actually unkind. This is actually not okay what's happening.

And so the commentators are skipping past the fact that Hagar is in a position that is actually super demeaning. But it's like they don't see it because I don't think they're sensitive to the plight of a woman because they're not women. That's good. So even me being able to bring that out. So I don't know. I just said a lot. I'm saying womanhood is so much broader than your call to submit to your husband and be meek, gentle, and my. Yes, womanhood is being a woman and showing up as a woman in everything that God has called you to do.

Yeah, that's really dope. I think it also speaks to the great need that we have in the church for women. It took so long to summarize that. I'm so sorry. No, it's all good. I think it speaks to women being able to assess the text and to bring their outlook on the text to the church. because I do think, you know, they just experience the text in a different way because of how they were created. And so I think we need both women and men to be able to speak to the Bible as it relates to how do we seek God through the scriptures.

Yes. One, both men and women are created in the image of God. And so even how we read things can inform us of how we can see God differently. Because I'm looking at the text through a male lens. Correct. Right. And so like you being a woman, you can experientially see things in the text that I won't be able to see even if I read commentary or read cross references and stuff like that. So I think that's huge. And that's why you need the, not diverse, the body is diverse, but that's why you need consideration when it comes to even how we do local church when it comes to men like women and men. Like I think that's why. why the church is to function as a family. Yes, the husband is the head of the wife. Yes, elders are men, right? But that doesn't mean that they are not to consider the mothers in the church.

That does not mean they are not to have questions and conversations with the daughters in the church. Like a house actually doesn't function well if the women in the house are ignored. Yeah. And so I think even the way the church is supposed to function, it would just function better if women were more of a, I guess, an asset. Yeah, absolutely. Because when you just said that when you just brought that out in the text, I just, one thing I thought about was just how powerful would it be for men pastors who are leading the congregation to talk to women about what they see in this text, especially if the text is considering or talking about women. for sure how much can we serve the women in the congregation if a man leaned on a woman's voice because you see you see not to harp on this but it does matter to me if you go to genesis 16

you you see this whole conversation about uh hagar sarai sarah sarah abram you know what i'm saying the lord has promised to bless the world uh through his seed like you're you get stuck or you can get tunnel vision on Abraham and miss Hagar because it's like she's a person too. She's made in God's image too. And you can miss Sarai. Because let's not forget that he also left that girl up in Egypt

with Pharaoh because he was too scared to be honest. Come on now. And so our patriarch had some problems when it came to dignifying the women in his life. Absolutely, absolutely. I'm not saying to you on the man faith. I'm saying he had problems. Okay. Okay. And this isn't, yeah, like, I don't even want people to hear like this like she's being feminist. Like no, like you're just reading the text. I'm being fair.

You're being fair. Absolutely. And I'm, I'm, because even in, in, in hermeneutics, we all come to the Bible with frameworks. I come to the Bible with a female framework. The difference is I'm not imposing my framework into the text. There we go. I'm allowing my framework to ask certain questions and allowing the text to answer those questions. Absolutely. And so I'm simply saying, saying that element of womanhood has affected and impacted my preaching in a way that I think has served women and men. Absolutely. And also, too, I mean, I've seen, you know, I don't think men have the inability to see, you know, the struggles and the complexities that women deal with in the scriptures. I've read scriptures and I've seen, you know, like just, like even the scripture,

the passage where Mary comes inside the house when Lazar's and Martha is eating with Jesus and Bethany a couple days before he's crucified. And when I studied that passage, I thought that it was very fascinating why it was made such a big deal that she approached Jesus when she broke the Alabasic oil and put it all over Jesus' head. And one of the reasons why it was such a big deal because women were not to even approach men

when they were reclining at the table, that was like culturally just unacceptable. And so the men typically laid on the floor, reclined at the table, and if the women were not serving them culturally, they weren't allowed to just come up. And so like I think just even seeing how women had to pay honor and respect the man, how she bypassed that to worship her savior, you know. And so I think like even thinking about like the struggles,

the complexities, the things that women had to go through. scripture will give us a different framework of how we see scripture in the future. I have a question, though. So I want to move towards, you know, this idea of, like, how women are brought up and how that informs them to be women in the future or what type of women they be in the future. One of the things that we talked about was how my upbringing, you know, like really played a part in how I saw myself as a man, how I saw the world, how I saw other men, how I showed up even with women, you know.

And so when it comes to male affection, since we're talking about men, like how did the lack of male affection or how does the consistency of male affection impact you negatively or positively? The consistency of me? Like for a woman who've had like consistent like male affection, how does that impact you positively as a woman. And then also the flip side for the women who haven't had male affection, male attention, fathers, how did that impact you, how you saw yourself as a woman.

I'll speak to my experience. I really can't speak to the experience of having a daddy that hugs you. I think it was revelatory. I'm sure I've shared this on this podcast at least once. When I was sitting with my therapist in Chicago and she was like, yeah, I did share She was like, did your dad, do you remember when you're, do you remember being hugged by your dad? I was like, not like that. And she was like, do you remember being kissed by him?

Do you remember affection and all the stuff? I was like, no, not like that. She was like, what's the first experience of male affection you remember? I was like being molested. Wow. And so she was like, do you realize that your first experience of male affection was through sexual abuse? that's going to affect how you understand male affection moving forward. And so I'm not sure what the difference would have been if my dad was not just affectionate but present, not just present but affirming.

I think I just would have had a more secure base in life. You know, I think I would have been more secure myself. I think I would have been more able to, you know, I think I would have been more secure. trust that I'm loved and seen and known. You know what I'm saying? And I think, but my struggle is not merely that I didn't get affection from my father, but I also didn't get nurture from my mother.

And so there's this sense where I'm this young girl who's not getting cultivated in a variety of ways from both sources. Yeah. And so I think it positioned me well, in the sense that I think the way I was cultivated prepare me to know how to handle hard things without breaking.

Yeah. I think I have the capacity and the stamina to deal with difficulty without being crushed. Yeah. Because I had to learn how to figure it out. I didn't have the time, the energy, or the place to go. You know what I'm saying?

Like I didn't have anyone to coddle me. So it just, I think now being a person who the Lord has, called to say hard things and do hard things with you, with our family in preaching and teaching whatever, I think I have a greater capacity for that because of what I went through. But I think on the back end, it's made me a person who just also struggles with emotional and physical vulnerability in ways that feel unfair. Yeah. So, yeah, that's good. That's good. That's good. You know, lately you've, you've been talking about how like God is not only,

showing you that you need strength from him to preach or to teach, but you also need strength from him to be a mother or whatever and a wife and all of these things. And I've seen you put clips out there when you was on the show or whatever, you put clips out there. And I've seen the comments and how it's been fringing to women. You know, I think my question next is like, how would, like, how would you say God has helped you through your Christian walk, not really having a lot of the things that women would need to, quote-unquote, be a successful mother woman in society, like not having a father.

Like, how has God fathered you in the way and showed up with you in a way that has helped you become more and, like, develop more into your womanhood? Say that again. So, like, I think for the people who say, I didn't have this. I didn't have that for me, an example. Like, I didn't have a father, right, to teach me how to be a man, right? But I know in my Christian walk, God has fathered me in a way that has informed how I fathered my kids. God has fathered me in a way that informed how I porn to young men or whatever.

And so a lot of the things that I've done is not because a human being showed me, but the God of the universe that showed me. And so how has God showed up in your life and your Christian walk that has helped you? and how can you, you know. As it relates to motherhood? As it relates to just womanhood, period, and all that it entails. I don't know. I think I don't know how to answer a lot of these questions because I don't think about it too much.

I guess I would have to say that it's probably twofold. It's probably obedience to Scripture. Because to obey Scripture, when I obey Scripture, the application of that is still going to come through a female body. And so even if I wasn't nurtured, if a fruit of the spirit is gentleness, that gentleness is going to come through a female body. And so even just walking by the spirit is going to develop me as a woman in a particular way. I think another aspect of it is, I think, discipleship.

I think the Lord has put me around a lot of solid biblical women, you know, who have trained me to be a mother, to be a wife, whether that's Melody Fabian, whether that's Lindsay Avink, whether that's Heidi Dye, whether that's Janie Ortland. Like, I've had a lot of good influences when it comes to that. But I've also had, you know, friends who have taken my femininity up a notch, you know what I'm saying? Like I wasn't wearing, I was putting Vaseline on my lips before I met Megan. You know what I'm saying? Now I'm over here wearing gloss and blush and all types of stuff. So I think the Lord has also given me people to help me embrace parts of me that I just haven't. Not because I didn't want to.

It's just I just wouldn't think about it. Yeah. Yeah. No, no, no. I think that's good. But also, too, if you don't mind me speaking into what I've seen. Because I ask that question because in my mind, I think as a husband, I watch you, you know, and I pray for you. And I've just seen just milestones in your development as a woman, a mother, a wife, all the things.

And if you don't mind me even sharing, we don't have to put it in if you do. But I remember, you know, you had this season where you kind of questioned that if God protected you. Oh, yeah, yeah. You know? We talked about that. We talked about that. Well, I talked about it on a Tim Ross podcast. Okay, yeah, yeah.

And I think, you know, one of the reasons why you struggled with that because of what you lacked. You lacked protection, male protection, because your father wasn't there. You didn't have men to show up. And so, like, I think that you came into this Christian walk with that same framework. Does God really protect me? And I remember how you had to be honest with the Lord. You had to pray. You had to come to the Lord with that honesty.

And when the Lord began to show you, you know I actively protect you in ways that you don't even realize. To me, I think that I saw that your womanhood, I think you became more soft after that. Really? I think that you, because I think that the way we show up with the Lord informs how we show up with other people. Interesting.

And I think when you started to feel, feel protected and seeing by God, your defenses came down. Interesting. You became more soft and more, you know, because you became more secure. And so I think, I think taking our childhood trauma to the Lord and being honest, I was saying, Lord, I don't feel safe. I don't feel this. And allow him to heal you in those spaces.

I do think will affect our womanhood, our, you know, our manhood. And that's something I still really, really, really struggle with. I don't think that's something you could overcome overnight when you have been, when you have considered yourself to be your safest refuge, it can feel scary to lay aside those walls that have actually kept you safe. You know, walls do keep you safe, but they also keep you from love. And so that's the challenge of do I want just safety or do I also want intimacy? And so sometimes you have to pick and choose which wall you're going to let down for the sake of your own health and wholeness.

And so I think I'm still wrestling a lot with the Lord as it relates to trusting him to be a refuge. Because trusting him to be a refuge doesn't necessarily mean you won't get hit. It doesn't. It just means that he's there with you in it. That's good. And he's there to heal you from it. And the other side of it is to not trust him at the end of the day is pride. You know what I'm saying?

So it's just like the way I move around a lot of times is just pride. It's I don't want to be caught off guard. I don't want to be considered weak. I don't want to be hurt. all of that was something I developed out of these experiences that profoundly wounded me. And so I think I'm still learning as a wife, as a mother, as a friend, as a leader, how to be weak. I haven't yet figured out that dance, but I think I'm trying. But one thing I will say, the Lord has, and the Lord is sanctifying you.

Yeah. And I think the Lord, you know, oftentimes we are not in touch of reality of how much the Lord. Oh, I'm telling all my business. That's what we got to stop this. We got to be more abstract on these podcasts. Of how much the Lord is sanctifying you, you know. Let's speak about that though. Let's just, you know, since we're here, let's be, let's be all away real. One thing that I, I love about you is your honesty, you know? You've all. always been a very honest person. You don't, you're not fake, you're not phony. That's why it is so crazy to me when, yeah. Yeah, but see, here's the thing. Because I'm like, I don't even know how to hide. Yeah. But one thing that I, one thing that I've seen, you know, is because you're well known in the Christian community, because your testimony is so public, I've seen your honesty be used against you as it relates to your womanhood. I've seen people take clips of you talking about your

struggles and using that to say that you are not delivered, that you aren't still in a lifestyle, like literally use your honesty as a weapon against you. And so, you know, can you speak to how does that affect you? Effect. That's a vulnerable word. Well, well, if... How does that make you feel? Yeah, and just speak to... Come on.

How do you feel like this... Dr. Phil? Dr. Preston. how society views womanhood as it relates to you in your testimony and how how do you work through that as a woman in the culture who's been called to teach other women summarize that because that was a lot okay so like one the first part is how does it affect you when people come into you know the conversation about your womanhood as it relates to your past how you've been honest with your past how does that affect you and then how do you still show up to do what God is called to do as it relates to being a woman important to other women.

That's the second half of the question. It doesn't make me cry or anything. I don't go home and lay in the fetal position because of it. I think there's this complex mixture of I'm used to this. I expect this. and I am frustrated by it and not even necessarily frustrated for myself but frustrated for how the commentary is landing on others

who share the same story and who might now feel timid and insecure about being honest. And so I'm always thinking about them a lot where it's just like, man, like this has to be kind of discouraging for them. I think when it comes to saying that I came out of lesbianism and not just lesbianism,

but saying that I used to be a stud and used to dress a certain kind of way and show up a certain kind of way and then becoming a Christian, I think it can be commonplace for people then to have a very critical eye towards you to check and see if what you say about yourself is authentic, if what you say about yourself is true. I think it can be interesting for people to see me wear dickies or see me

wear fitter caps or see, like for me to show. And truthfully, that's actually the last couple years where my style has shifted just because when we got away from skinny jeans and went into wide legs, I changed my style. You know what I'm saying? And it's because I'm stylish. I like fashion. I like to dress a certain kind of way. And I feel more of a freedom in myself to show up in certain garb, I guess.

And I feel that freedom from you, you know? You've always affirmed how I dressed. You've always liked it. And so I feel like if there was more pushback from you, from our pastors, from our leaders, then I would actually take a pause and be like, okay, let me consider what the Lord is saying. But because it's always from sources

that don't even know me and don't seem to even love me, then it's like, whatever. But at the end of the day, I think ultimately, I think I want people to know that people will criticize you. People will talk about you.

People will use your story against you, but be faithful anyway. That's good. Be faithful anyway. And so I don't think we can make decisions in anticipation for how people will respond. That makes us people pleasers. That makes us idol worshippers. And so I'm not going to allow that type of criticism to keep me quiet because that's the temptation. Yeah.

But I'm going to speak to this. I'm going to keep wearing my dickies. I wouldn't keep wearing them because you're fine. And it's like, do y'all see the variety? It's really, it's not, and it's not even just the style, truly. Yeah. It's the, it's the affect. It's the demeanor, right?

So if I look like Tiana Taylor, who dresses that way too, if I look like a lot of cats who wear street casual, that's the style, it's because I don't have, I'm not hyper feminine. And so it doesn't, yeah, it's like, I don't really know what to do. Yeah, yeah, no, let me just speak to it as your husband and somebody who. I got a highlighter on. I got blush. I got eyebrow gel.

I got lenaise, lip moisturizer. You know what I'm saying? Like, if you saw me as a stud, like, even when I was a stud, the girls I would wit would say I'm acting too early. I wasn't even man enough for them. And so now I'm over here being a girl, girl, and that ain't good enough. I don't know what else to do. Let me, let me speak to this because, you know. I didn't have four kids.

I've been married 11 years. Do you understand what I'm saying? It's like, at this point, I don't know. I'm actually, y'all want me to bust out in Spanx to make what point? Yeah, yeah. No, I'm not doing it. I actually want to speak from the vanished point of your husband and just seeing the progression of your development.

One, I love your style. I think that your style is beautiful. I love the way you dress. I think, you know, you are just, one, if you wasn't stylish, it would be hard for me because I love fashion. And so... You have to lead me in the way I should go.

Right, right, right. But you're a beautiful woman. And one of the things that frustrates me is, you know, I think a lot of the criticism that I've seen you get, is actually a result of unbelief. I think people not having the ability to truly believe God's power in someone's life actually makes you come into the conversation,

wanting a person to do all the outside things so you can prove to them that you're delivered. Explain that. So what I mean is like because you struggle with God's redeeming power, because you struggle with God being a deliverer, Jackie has to show up with red bottoms and sundresses for you to believe that she's delivered. Not faithfulness to her husband. Not faithfulness to a local church. Not faithfulness to the scriptures.

Not all the things that God tells us that if a Christian is a Christian, they are in me. You want her to show up in a way that makes you say, okay, now you're delivered. And actually the Bible doesn't define deliverance like that. And so one, I do think that when it comes to people doubting you, it is indicative to them doubting the Lord. It is not about you. It is about their lack of faith. Right?

And so one, I just want to say that. And then two, I want to say that, yeah, like, Jesus dealt with the same thing. Okay. In the sense that people called him demon possessed. People called him an idol worshipper. because they really didn't have anything else to accuse him of. They didn't, right? I guess what I'm trying to say is I do think that when, let me just say this,

when we first became married and you did not wear eyeliner. Nope. You did not wear, what does this call? Foundation? What does that call? There are a lot of things. What the little rosy things on her cheeks called? Blush.

That's what I'm going. You didn't do none of that. But you came out with this book called Gay Girl Good God, and I saw the immediate impact that they had on culture, the church, the LGBTQ plus community. Like I saw the immediate impact. As I saw you be faithful year after year, at the year, you've actually become, I won't say more of a woman

because that's ignorant. You've always been a woman. But you've become more comfortable in your femininity, right? But I've seen the attacks grow. Which is crazy. As you became more girly. That shows you that it's spiritual warfare. That's ironic.

When she was around here, like, just rough around the edges, she didn't get this. And I think, I want to encourage you in this, I think the devil is tired of you. In the same way the devil was tired of Jesus. No, no, no, no, no, I'm serious. You're on bold TV or something. No, I'm, because it's not even, it's not even, I'm mad at people. We got to understand that we don't fight against flesh and blood, to get spiritual wickedness in high places.

Yes, that's a feature. The world, not just you, but me too. The world has been waiting for you to go back into the lifestyle. The world has been waiting for you to prove that, and you haven't, because one God's hand is on you. And because God has used you all these years, the enemy is taught. You know how many same-sex marriages broke up because of gay girl God?

A lot. A lot. You don't think the devil hate you? I know he does. What is he going to do? He is not going, like the world, this discouraging words is not going to make you walk away from the faith. What is the devil going to try to use to discourage you? He's going to use religious folks.

In the same way, the devil used religious folks to attack Jesus. Their unbelief. And so one, as your husband, that's one thing that I've witnessed. I've witnessed the enemy raise up, quote unquote, Christians to discourage you in your mission. because of their lack of unbelief, because and other things I don't want to say, but I want to encourage you that you've been faithful. You've been faithful. God has used you.

He will continue to use you. And a lot of this is just a result of your fruitfulness and faithfulness. I appreciate that. I will say, I think if I had to speak to the aesthetics, the wisdom behind aesthetics, I do think that's valid to address, which is. when I first came to faith in 2008, I immediately changed my wardrobe. I went super hyper-girlly, had acrylic nails, all the stuff, eyelashes, oh my gosh, the strip. It was just, it was just uncomfortable.

But I felt led by the spirit to do that to guard myself. Because I knew two things. I knew I needed to develop in restoring myself back to. femininity just because I had been walking out, I think, trying to be a gender that I wasn't designed to be. And I also knew I did not have the stamina to fight whatever temptations would come my way if I still presented as male. And so, not presented as male, but you know, still dressed in a certain kind of way. So there was a long season of my life where I walked in a certain kind of wisdom when it came to how I

dress for my heart and for my presentation. And so I do think that those who come out of the lifestyle need to have those kinds of questions, need to have those kinds of counsel, and consider the Holy Spirit. There's been multiple times where I've sensed, where I wanted to wear something like, just chill. And the Lord is like, no, I want you to wear that or I want you to wear this. So I don't want you to preach in this. I don't want you to preach in that. I want you to dress like this. Like, it sounds extra, but it's simply discerning what it's personally discerning what is.

pleasing to the Lord. Consider him in all your ways, even when it comes to how you dress. And so I think I'm just plain, I'm just want to give balance to this conversation and saying we're not saying you can dress however you want because that makes you comfortable, particularly if you come out of a world where your style might communicate something that your new lifestyle. Like if you come from a place where style communicated something that now is in opposition to the lifestyle that the Lord has brought you into, then you need to consider how to manage that. We even see that in the scriptures. Like when God is telling the people of Israel, not to do a certain thing because I don't want you to look like the culture. It could be a hindrance if you mark your body with, you know,

and things. I don't want you to look like the lifestyle that I brought you out up. So that is wisdom. Yes. But it's, so, but I also think the principle is, Are you, one, is the Lord convicting you of this? Have you considered community? Is this a stumbling block to you? Yeah. Is your gender confusing? Yes.

Right? Yeah, yeah. So there are some styles or there are some people that present in ways where you don't know what they are. Yeah. And so they are hiding and hindering and shielding God's design. Yeah. I think those who are trans, I think that's a principle there, where it's like you're actually hiding the way God designed you.

And so I think that's a hindrance to his glory in your body. And so, yeah, I think the consideration of community, the consideration of sin, stumbling block, all of that matters. I think in my case, I think I do all of those. Yeah. And so, and truthfully, it's like. That's good. That's beautiful.

that my style is so much more diverse than social media wants to make it out to be which is frustrating. Yeah, I think that's beautiful that you... I just don't wear dresses because even though I would that one time I wear a dress, when did I wear on our anniversary? You wore dress on our anniversary. It's a very nice dress. It's been a few times I wore

I say you know... At our sister wedding you wore dress. I didn't like that one. I didn't like that one. Dresses are I ain't even going to hold you. They are convenient. I went to the potty. said all I got to do is lift this thing up. I ain't got to, I ain't got to unsip nothing and pull the bag. It was, I just felt free.

You feel the air up under you. I said, you know, that's, I like that. But it's, there's, you crazy. There is a certain level of. I felt the air up on it. Even if I, because you know, my friends were trying to get me in, in some dresses. And I say, honestly, y'all. You've never felt like they were comfortable to you.

And I don't. I like how they, one, I feel like I like layering. And so the things with dresses, I don't feel like they can be, I would have to figure out how to layer them. Like, I like shirt, jacket, pants, socks, a hat. Like, I like being able to pull a bunch of different components together because I just think I like a lot of textures. So a lot of how I dress is in consideration of like, I want to wear something. then that's really interesting. So dresses feel,

I like how they look on people. I just think they seem too easy. Like, oh, I got to dress on. Ooh. But I think for me, there's a sense where it's just like, if I put one on, I feel like there would be a freaking parade.

And I don't even, I got too much social anxiety. Oh my gosh. I just don't even want to, you know something that people don't know about you. Let me, can I say this? Oh, my God.

I know what she's about to say, because I was stinking in my head. I don't know. I don't know what it. I don't think y'all realize how protective Preston is of my body. Oof. That's, I think that's a secret motive behind why he likes me dressing the way I. It's like a lot of women, a lot of men, won't they women to like look a certain way?

It's like, no, I know what your body look like. So you got hiding the chest. You got hiding the chest when I started talking on the dress. I saw it in your face. I just like. At the end of the day, because, because one, I don't mind dresses. You know what I'm saying? Because it's like, you're like, y'all are trying to come back to my white woman.

If anybody know how much of a woman you are as me. Hello. Emotionally, physically, all the things. Ain't that how they do it. Right. And I love it. Oh, is this one? And I love it.

But at the end of the day, it's like. Jesus. She ain't out here, she out here dressing comfortable. She still looks sexy. I still love it. You know what I'm saying? But at the end of the day, it's like. Like, why y'all want to see my wife Curse?

I don't like that. I don't think that's what they say. I don't know, but that's what they were seeing. It's like, at the day. Like, she had some nice skinny jeans, a t-shirt, and some- Breaston said, I want her to wear them dickies. I don't want her going to She-in. Now, I don't want her in them dresses, because y'all go see things.

I don't want y'all to see. It's like, man, like, I remember a couple of times where we were out and you, you had some short tone. And it was, we was in Vegas. And these dudes was looking at you. And I literally turned around and made our contact. Like, stop looking at my wife. Go put some jeans on back on back on buckle.

Like, it just made me feel uncomfortable. Like, stop looking at my wife, bro. That's what I'm telling you. I'm like, this man won't be to stay in these jerseys. I hate it. I hate it. I don't like it at all. So, like, yeah, it just makes me feel uncomfortable.

I can do peplum. No peplum is. What is a peplum? Peplom. Peplum is like, it's skinny at the top and I wouldn't wear peplum actually, but I'm saying there are styles of dresses that are not super, uh, shape, that show your shape off excessively. Yeah, yeah, I don't mind that. It just, it's just, you know. Makes you uncomfortable.

Yeah, it makes me uncomfortable. That means if ever the Lord moved me to wear dresses, we would have to process through that. Absolutely. I mean, for you, you would have to process it. Yeah, that we have to be pressing approved. All right. But anyways, I want to go back to something real quick that we just talked about because, one, what I hear you saying is that through the criticism of your style, people weaponizing your testimony against you, you still have not straight away from being authentic. Right.

And authentically you. Right. Which is one, I just want to speak to your bravery in that. You know, I give you kudos for that. But you talked about how like a lot of the criticism you don't like because how it informs other women who have the same struggles. Amen. And even how it informs the church. But I want to speak to the flip side of that.

And I want to say just as your husband being married to you for 11 years, God hasn't just used your studying your theology to free people. But he's also used your honesty. He's also used you being able to show up in spaces and be you. that has been a counterattack against the false ideology, the false theology of the church that says, you have to, if you're delivered, you have to show up in this way. And so one, I want to speak to that. I want to ask you, like, how much has the Lord inspired you to be authentically you? And how important that is you being, because like you being you, like you being you,

is how the Lord has used you. Does that make sense? Like the Lord has used Jackie. Not just your theology, but your honesty, your bravery, the way you, and even you talking about

you being led by the Lord and saying, okay, I want to wear some jogging pants right here in this sermon, but God led you to wear this. And like, there's obviously a wrestle,

a dance that you've had with the Lord, but how has, you know, you being authentically you, been important and how you showed up in ministry with people. I think a big part of it is

it's like genetic. You know what I'm saying? Like, anybody who was met my mother, she just doesn't have a pretentious bone in her body. Like, it's just, you just get what you get. Even my dad, he just was a real ninja.

You know what I'm saying? And like, when that man told me one of the last times we talked before he died he was like yeah he was like I love you he was like but if y'all never want to see me again like he was like it's just something in my mind where I just wouldn't care but I'm trying to tell you

the way he said it it wasn't mean it wasn't cruel he just was just like yeah it's just I don't know I just wouldn't care and I remember being like alright that's just what this is but it's just yeah he just copy that he wasn't going to

fake like he wanted to be a daddy like he just wasn't going to do that and so i think that's a part of my makeup is kind of this commitment to authenticity because that even shows up in my preaching not in myself but in a desire for people to know and walk in truth that's really ultimately what it is is i want us to be honest i want us to be in step with reality i want us to know what is true love what is true, be what is true. And so a part of acting that out is to be true in myself, even as I communicate truth to others. Yeah, that's good. I think as it relates to God's glory, that matters. Yeah. Even Jesus walked in truth, not just in what he said, but in who he was. He was not going to deny the fact he was a carpenter, the fact that he was God's son, the fact, like, he was, he

he went into spaces fully as himself. And I think I experienced a lot of that dissonance and temptation to shape shift shift most when I was in white evangelical spaces, if I'm honest. That was when I started to feel like, do I speak different here? Do I present myself? And I actively, actively would push against that. like no i'm not finna what we say cold what's the cold switch i'm not finna i'm finna you know what i'm saying unless it's unless my lack of articulation hinders truth i'm not you know what i'm saying like i'm gonna be me because god's glory is not just in the content but in the

person the content is coming through that's good and i think people need to know that god does not just want to use what you say he wants to use the you yeah who is saying it so it matters for you be yourself. And that, and that, and that's what I want to say too. I think for me, I think some people might say, oh, you're just saying it because you're trying to defend your wife. It's, of course, I'm going to defend my wife. That's actually my job. But I think, I think I want to put that out there that when you comment on a person's life that you actually don't know, I actually do real life with, you, you're actually probably being a threat to, you, you're actually being a threat to the gospel message that is coming through them in more ways than you think.

Interesting. Meaning that because God, what you just said, doesn't just use our theology, but our personality that theology is being used to to attack their character, to attack their personality or whatever, you might not understand all the complex ways that God want them to show up in the world for the particular people that they, like, that God, God wants them to reach. Because I've experienced the same thing.

I've experienced, I've experienced people attack me because I do not look like the typical person who shows up at these conferences. Y'all want me will win buglebone. Bugaboy khakis on. You really got some issue with bugle boy. And these little brown loafers. And so when I come. That's actually stylish.

You know what I'm trying to say. I do understand. Like Carlton Banks. Yeah. When I come with Jay. I don't think that's always acceptable. But one thing that I've always said that God didn't send me from my culture, but he sent me for my culture to reach my culture.

And I do think that we might not understand in all the ways that we are in opposition in what God is trying to do when we're so opinionated about a person's life that God is trying to use in a very strategic way. And so I think people need to be careful about how they put their mind. mouths on God's people because, man, you might be used by the devil and you might not even realize it. And I think for the, for people, I see a lot of this in ministry where people are afraid to be themselves. And by themselves, I don't mean your flesh self. Your self, I mean the personality that God is giving you. Because when you come, when you are in Christ, becoming a Christian doesn't mean

that your personality is dissolved. The process of sanctification is the process of actually clarifying the personality that you were born with. That's good. And so God is getting rid of all the ways in which your personality has been perverted. And so even for me, my natural personality, I think, is one of extreme tenderness, extreme sensitivity. Like, I think at my core, I'm actually a very soft woman.

Yeah, you are. And so in the sanctification process, the life. Lord is actually trying to get out all of that stuff in my system that is hiding the me that he made me to be. That's really good. And so I think I want people to know God doesn't want to use the you you think is acceptable. He wants to use the you he made you to be. That's beautiful.

And so allow him to do that. And don't let nobody make you feel bad for you being yourself. That's good. Like, don't do that. That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Let's talk about, you know, headship and submission. Ooh, Ephesians 5.

Because, you know, you have, I think the typical person. Written by Apostle Paul to the church in Ephesus. I think the typical person will look at you and be like, she's a strong woman. I kind of have my opinions about that too, because I do think that the church, society, we determine strength and weakness. on scales that God doesn't kind of weigh. You might as well teach that. We hear now. What's you saying?

Because I do think that throughout the years, people have said, man, how do you be in a relationship with such a strong woman? And I'll say, well, how do you know she's strong? Because she's preached. Because she preached good. Because she knows how to exegeted a passage. I like your hat. Thank you.

Yeah. So I do think that we look at these outer hysteria, exterior things to determine what strength and weakness is. And I'm like, that's not actually how God kind of determines strength. That's good. And so, you know, which is the reason why I think that men and women, we show up wrong with one another. It's because it's like, he, he doesn't want me because I'm strong.

But how are you strong, though? You're strong just because you good in business and you loud or you're aggressive. Aggressive or whatever. Being strong is not, you know, being strong is a, Yeah, and so, like, one, I just want to say that, but there are areas that you are very capable, comparable, all the things, right? And so how does submission, like, what does submission look like for a woman like you? And how would you encourage women to get the Bible? Women to lean into submission. I got to move my rubber bands.

who are very capable, comparable women. My view of submission is deepening. It's not changing, it's deepening, and I think becoming more serious to me. Because I'm going to just read this. The Lord brought this to my heart. What was that, December? This is 1st Peter 3, verse 5 and 6.

For this is how the holy women, I'll say that again, for this is how the holy women sanctified, set apart, powerful women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves. This is how they made themselves beautiful by submitting to their own husbands. As Sarah obeyed Abraham calling him Lord, what I'm not going to do is call you Lord, but the principal. Lord Preston. That is that. Can I go to the stove? The principle is that of submission. and you are her children if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening. I think one thing about that text that really challenges me is that the Lord is ultimately saying

that if you want to be a holy woman, you have to be a submissive woman. If you want to be a reverent woman, you have to be a submissive woman. It does not say this is how the holy women who hope that God used to adorn themselves by exegeting scripture. This is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves by, you know, wearing real good lip gloss and making cookies. This is how the holy women, like, the stuff that's easy is not the thing he says makes you holy. That's good. It's by submitting to your husband and having, and in Ephesians, let's just turn there real quick. Ephesians 5 says, Oh, that's not Ephesians.

It is Ephesians. Yeah. Wives submit to your own husband as unto the Lord. So this is, I'm submitting to the Lord in my submission to my husband. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit and everything to their husbands. I want to fast forward to this clarity. verse 33

However let each one of you Love his wife as himself And let the wife see that she respects her husband So even the manifestation of that submission Is angled in the direction of respect So now when you put First Peter and Ephesians together What you see is that what God cares about deeply Particularly for women who are married

Is that they respect their husbands And that they submit to their husbands And that's the thing that God calls reverent That's the thing that God calls holy that's the thing that God calls beautiful. And I think we have ingested this idea that weakness is not beautiful. That submission is a kind of weakness, like it's not cool, it's not, like especially, I think women like me who were raised around very independent women and women who had to be

independent. Yeah. What else they're going to do? They got to cut their grass. They got to pay for their bills. They got to protect themselves. you know what I'm saying? But I think when you ingest that kind of teaching and get married, you come against all types,

all types of pride because now you're showing up as disrespectful. You're showing up as unsubmissive. You're showing up as irreverent towards God primarily and then your husband. And so I think the Lord is showing me like this is the thing that makes you most holy is how you show up with your husband, not just what you preach. Can I just say something from a man's perspective? Yes. Yes. Everything that you said was just super great.

And I think what I would want my sisters to understand is I'm not talking about men who don't really have a true biblical framework. Because that's a whole other conversation. Yeah, but I'm talking about for the men who do, we actually have a deep, deep reverence and respect from women who are actually show up that way. Why? Because in my mind, we had this conversation about Melody Fabian, how much I respect her because I see how much she submitted to her husband because of her. I think what the culture and society tells us is submission is a lack of dominance. And so in order to not look like the weaker vessel, we try to show up in big, loud, you're not going to run over many ways, been in many ways to me what that communicates actually weakness.

That's deep. What I see, when I see women like that, I see weakness. I don't, I actually don't see strength. I see a woman trying to appear strong. But when I see a woman who's choosing to be submissive, because if submission is weakness, do it successfully. Yeah, it takes a lot of strength. That shows you that it actually takes strength to do it.

If you can't do it successfully without continuing to fail, that shows you that it takes strength. That's good. And so it does not take strength to be like, you ain't going to run over me. I'm this, I'm a strong woman. Watch you break down. That doesn't take strength.

In the same way, it doesn't take strength for a man to love his wife like Christ loved the church. You said it doesn't take strength? I'm sorry. In the same way, it does take a lot of strength. God's strength for a man to love his wife like Christ loved the church. This is saying, no, I got to love you even when you don't love me back. Correct.

Woo. That's strength. That's humility. And so one, I think what women have to understand is that real men of God, like real men of God, who understand the scriptures and understand God, we actually have a deep, deep reverence and respect for women who show up in submits of ways. Because one, we know how hard it is. Yeah.

And two, we know how much you are sacrificing to do it. Yeah. And so that's one thing that I want to understand. And also, too, I think I just want to say on top of that, I think because the society that we live in, people who show up real big on social media, people who loud, people who prophesied and do all the things, right? they're looked at it strong because I think both the church and the world, we have made the word submission synonymous with weakness and we've made headships synonymous with dominance. But here's the thing. And that's just not the truth. And it is a, it is a kind of weakness.

It is. As unto the Lord. Yes. Right? Because I am depending on him to, because truthfully, we've said this before and we know this. Our fear of submission usually is wrapped up in a fear of being controlled, being dominated, being abused, being taken advantage of. So it's fear. That's why Peter,

immediately after talking about the holy women who hoped in God adorn themselves by respecting or by submitting to their husbands, he follows up by saying, and be like you are her daughters if you don't fear what is fearful. And so even to walk in the submission that God is requiring of us,

requires us to have such a faith in God that we don't fear what is legitimately scary. It's legitimately scary. Wow, I've never thought about it that way. It's scary to trust that you're going to guide me correctly. It's scary to trust that you are going to lead me where you want me to. That is scary. And scripture says, I know it's scary, but don't fear it.

You need to trust God more than you trust him. And so that means that your weakness, your ultimate submission is as unto the Lord, which gives you the strength to show up well with your husband. And I believe the Lord honors that. And so even if you got to be quiet and let him mess up, the Lord will bless it. Because you did what was in order. That's really good. I've never thought about it that way.

That's really good. Like fearing what is actually fearful. Because I think as a woman, as a man, we don't think about all the complex ways that women have to work through their submission. And so I think the typical, you know, thought for a man is like, oh, you're just rebellious. And it's like, no, it's like. There's a reason for everything. Yeah, it's a reason for everything.

And I want to just also speak to the headship part. I know this is a- Can I say something real quick? Yes. I think this will pair with what you're probably about to say. I think a thing that has given me more of a willingness to submit is, one, your love. I think you, I wasn't trying to be mushy. I know, but it's here now.

You love like Christ, okay? And so it helps. It helps a lot. But I think when I, because I did a Bible study on Ephesians with Jasmine Holmes and Michael, Michelle Krueger, or Melissa Krueger. And I had Ephesians 5 and 6, so I had to really do a deep dive in these books. And I remember really looking at Ephesians. five and thinking about Paul does not tell us

what this submission is. He just says, do it. Which to me might communicate that submission to your own husband might not look like submission to their husband. How you submit to that man might not be how I submit to this man. That's where communication comes in.

And so for our relationship, it's what does respect look like for you? Yeah. What does submission look like for you? Yeah. What are the visions that you have that you want me to lean into? What are the emotional things that you're going through that you want me to lift up? It actually becomes much more specific when you deal with what does submission look like in this marriage instead of applying what submission looks like in that marriage to this one.

Do you know what I'm saying? I think when you do that, you actually build, you probably put more burden. on you than are necessary because you're trying to show up for your husband and the way that Stacy is showing up for hers. And that's just not going to work. You putting on a costume that don't fit. Yeah, that's really good. That's super good. And I think that's super helpful. And two, I think how we... How wrong the brains out? It looks like it. How we show up as husbands, as leaders of our home. Huge. It's huge because it informs how well at times a woman. can submit to you.

Because I think a lot of times we think about, when we think about headship, unfortunately we've made society and even the church in a lot of ways has made like headship, like I said, synonymous with the word dominance. But when we look in Genesis and when we see, you know, when God created Adam, he gave Adam the authority to name all of the animals. He gave Adam the authority to tend over the garden to working and all the things. He told Adam to do all of these things before he. actually created Eve. And then when he created Eve out of Adam's side and she joined him in

humanity and all of these things, we see that together they had dominance over the earth, right? Dominance derives from the word dominion, right? And so they had dominion together, right? Adam did not have dominance over Eve, right? But the first time he saw Eve, he said, this at last is bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh, she shall be called woman because she was taken out of man. Not only it was that the first human words recorded in his scripture, but it was a poem. And so I think what men have to understand, and even women, is that when Adam saw Eve, he didn't see somebody that he can dominate, but he saw somebody that he can love. And I think our love, our unconditional love, our unconditional love, our unconditional servenhood,

our unconditional sacrifice for our family really does cultivate an environment for a woman to actually submit to you in the way that she's called to. And so I do think that if we come into marriage with that biblical framework and not thinking that we are just to dominate or control, I think then we'll see that no God has actually called us to work together to tend this guarding our home together, that your wife has equal value, her thoughts, her visions, like all of that should be spoken into. because that's another thing. Like, people would be like, I'm the leader.

And it's like every good leader utilizes the things that God has put around them, even the people. And so, like, if, like, for me, I can't speak for other men. I would be a fool to let my pride get in the way of the weapon that God gave me. Meaning, you are a weapon. It's like, why would I stifle my wife's gifts, her abilities, all because I want to look like a leader. leader. It's like I'm actually being a bad leader if I don't let her lose sometime. If I don't let her,

you know what I'm saying? And so I think, I think, I guess what I'm trying to say, our framework about what leadership and submission is just jacked up. It's bad. It's bad. You know what I'm saying? And so like, people be like, I love how you let your wife shine. It's like, yeah, because I'm a good leader. Like, I wouldn't be a good leader if I didn't help cultivate and let her do what the Lord. You know what I'm saying? And so like, you know what I think men have to understand that. I was going to say one, we talked about this when we were in Jamaica, one element of good leadership too is I do think men have to guard from entitlement

because I think when they lead in a particular way, they then have this expectation that the wife is required to submit because they've been so good. What do you mean by that? I think it's the same when men, like, I wash the dishes, I clean the sink, I swept. So she should give me sex. Entitlement. It's like, no, love just love because.

Don't love with this expectation that you were receive a reward. That's your old something, yeah. Because that's not real love. Correct. So I think when a man loves and leads well, I think a snare can, I think entitlement can creep in because it's like you have no excuse but to submit to me now because I've been leading you.

But I will say that I think one thing, that good leadership does is that it eliminates women's excuses, a woman's excuses. And so if a man is moving in a way that is sinful, unhelpful, unwise, she can look to that as a reason for why he doesn't deserve her respect. Whereas like, yeah, you're not moving in a way that's respectful. Therefore, I feel justified and not respecting you. Even though I'm disobeying scripture, it makes them feel just. and disobeying. But when a man moves in a respectful way, in an honorable way, in a loving way,

it removes all her excuses and now she's only left to deal with her heart. That's good. Now it's like, oh, I, the reason I'm disrespectful is because I'm disrespectful. Wow. The reason I lack submission is because I lack submission. There's no more excuses except to repent. And so I think good leadership does position women to see themselves in a way that they would not see themselves if you continue to move dishonorably. That's good. So I think our marriage has done that.

The more you shifted into different directions, it's like, oh, shoot, well, I'm the problem. I got no more excuses, Buck O'Day. It ain't even him at this point. Let me tighten up. So, yeah. Yeah. Well, man, I don't have any more questions. This is a great conversation.

Yeah, I wish I can give y'all resources. I mean, read First Peter. Read the Bible. Like, I don't know. Just allow you, if you, got the chromosomes that make you female, you're a woman regardless. And so how you apply scripture, how you look like Jesus, how you pursue him. That is biblical womanhood.

It's being like Christ as a woman. That's the best way I can describe it. I do want to, I know you don't like this, but I do want to end this podcast with Affirmie you. And that I want to say you are a beautiful woman. And it isn't because of the little rosy cheeks, the beautiful eyebrows, the eyelashes. The eyebrows are great. If my daddy ain't give me, he might, he might have gave me three hugs on my whole life.

But these eyebrows, oh my goodness, I hope to see him one day. No, no. I said, thank you, sir. I want to say as your husband seeing you, you know, every day for the last 11 years, what has made you a beautiful woman to me is the way you've consistently pursued the Lord, how you chased after holiness, how you've, been broken over your sin, how you've fought to love me and our children, how you have a desire for women to know scripture and to know the Lord, I think that's what has made you a beautiful

woman. And to see the sanctification processing you has been such a beautiful thing, because I've seen women be able to walk in freedom because your bravery. You stepping out there, are you taking the first step to say, man, this is who God created me. I'm not going to hide it from the world. And it's a hard thing to grow in front of thousands and thousands and thousands of people. But I think God in this sovereignty chose the right woman to do it. To lead so many women, not to just scripture, but to embrace their femininity, their marriage, their kids. And so I think that you are a voice for a particular generation,

who says, man, I don't have it all figured out. Yeah. But I trust in the God who called me. And so for that, I just want to say, man, you are one of my, if not my greatest earthly hero. Aw. And I love you. And I think that God is going to continue to use you. And I can't wait to see you when you're 50.

And you're wearing little sundresses. One day, one day when I'm more healed, I'm going to watch that back and cry. I'm not there yet. One day, I'm going to watch that back and be like, ooh. It's all good. Y'all da b'i and cashet. But I appreciate y'all. I love you.

God, saw your heart crying. He did. He know I received it. It just didn't, you didn't see it coming down my eyes. So I got to let this podcast cry. It's, love y'all. Bye. With the Perry's is produced by The Perrys, with support from Amanda Reed and Channing McBride,

video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley, edited by the team at Tread Lively, artwork by hop and music by swoop. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.