With The Perrys - Gender Identity, Biblical Womanhood, & Girly Girls

Episode Date: February 20, 2020

Jackie never considered herself a "girly girl," or whatever that means. She, like many women, found themselves being labeled a "tom boy" or "masculine" because she didn't wear purses and the like. These words were spoken by people who never had a biblical framework for how to understand gender in the first place. Situations such as these have clearly led to much confusion in the church and in the culture about what it means to be male and female in this world. Listen in as Preston and Jackie chat about it. Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, Saints and Names. How art? I don't like that. That's not Wisconsin. How art thou? What's good, y'all? How y'all feel? I hope your blessed and highly favorite.

Hope, you know, life is going well for you. I hope, you know, your tires are good because tires are very expensive. I just, I didn't realize that. So I became an adult. This is so random what they are. They are. Tires and paper tiles. I was like, I did not know that half of my money would be going to paper tiles, tires, tires,

toilet tissue, dish soap. I didn't know groceries costs as much as they did. You didn't? I was like, this is why my mama was stressed out my whole life. That's why they buy us a bunch of carbs and things. I just ate pizza rolls all the time. That's the reason why we ate spaghetti three weeks in a row. For breakfasts.

Just toastful strudels every day. My mama was at the grocery store making life decisions all the time. I had to. What's happening? I had to. That adult life is different. See, I see now, Mama. And eat it, eat like me.

Hello. Can't get snack. Snack. Can't get snack? Snack. Can't get snack? It's like you got a bottomless pit in your stomach. Full of freaking, what do you call them?

The little bears with the honey on it. Get off my baby. Anywho. So a while back, maybe July, I made a post. Real regular post. I had on a black shirt, a little hat, a little smirk or whatever. And then the caption said, something about Jesus. Real typical.

And upon scrolling the comments, I ran across this. It said, I would love to see you dress more feminine. I don't know if that was her tone, but I feel like it was. I would love to see you dress more feminine like a girly girl, but love the style, hard eyes, hard emoji. She wanted you to dress like Nikki Minaj and I'd check a hill pair. I'm not sure. But I do think that this comment is a good conversation. starter about what I think womanhood and femininity actually is.

Definitely. So, Jackie, how did you feel when she said that? Did you feel anger? Did you feel a need to kind of teach and educate? Well, I mean, for the most part, I feel like I've heard statements like that my entire life. I've never been uber feminine. You know, I never liked pink and I didn't wear dresses and I didn't care about having

and nails and eyelashes. And I just was never the typical what they would deem as quote unquote girl. Got you. So to me, it was just, oh, I've heard that before. Now I think as a Christian and as someone who God has given a kind of influence, I felt the need to educate her, not only for her, but for people that think like her that follow me. Just because I think that that kind of mentality is super damaging. Because this is a theory of mine.

I haven't tested it out, obviously. But I do have a theory that a lot of people that are dealing with, I think, gender confusion, I think it's the fruit of us putting gendered standards or constructs on people that are not actually godly. Let me explain. So, like, when you have the boy growing up who might lean more emotional. So he cries often. He's a lot, just more tender. He doesn't want to play with the little trucks.

He don't care. He don't care about dirt, none of that. What parents and what people will say is he acts like a what? A girl. And so he grows up thinking that the body that he is and the person that he is is not actually who he is because the society around him has told him otherwise. When realistically, where in the Bible did we have we seen that being emotional is gendered? Yeah. Where in the Bible do we see that playing with a, liking a particular color,

playing with a particular toy, or having a particular personality type, more aggressive, more intense, that that makes you more manly. That's a social construct. And so I think we're seeing people pushing back against it and actually bearing the fruit of what we told them, which is you are not what your body says you are. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I know you talk about this a lot in your book, or not a lot. I know you touched on it in your book, Gay Girl, Good God, if you don't have that, go cop that. Cop. So 1060 part.

Go cop that right now. Growing up, because you wasn't the quintessential, you know, girly girl, like, how did that affect you growing up? And then the second part of that question is when you became a Christian, what was the transition, you know, that you had to go through to kind of like, yeah, to be comfortable with. with who you are and comfortable with being able to have so many followers and being comfortable not to be a girly girl, you know.

Yeah. I think I felt confused just because in my mind, which is what I had never expressed to anybody growing up, I wanted to be a boy. Like, I just felt like being a boy was better. So, you know, I would sag my pants. I would stand up over the toilet to use the bathroom. room. When I would get out of the shower, I would put the, the, the, the towel around my waist instead of around my chest because I was mimicking what I saw men do. And so I think when people would say you're acting like a boy, there's this, how do you explain it? There's this confusion, but also this discontentment where I'm acting like what I also want to be. But I can't be that. This is who I am. I think as when I became a Christian, I think it was very scary. terrifying to try to embody a woman again. Because again, when I was a stud, for those that haven't read

my book, a stud is a woman who projects like a kind of hypermasculinity or hypermasculine self as a lesbian. When I became a Christian, it was weird to get back into it like a space where I was wearing certain colors or certain kinds of jeans. And I went to the extreme. Like when I became a Christian, I started wearing nails. I started wearing eyelashes. They're ridiculously heavy. It feels like you're about to go to sleep at every moment. Like I just thought I thought that being a Christian woman meant being that kind of Christian woman. Yeah.

And it took time and I think walking with Jesus to realize that Jesus has not called me to be a caricature. Jesus has called me to be fully myself yet in power by the spirit. Yeah. I think one of the interesting things is that when you look at some of the like, I guess, token passages that describe women in scripture. So Proverbs 31, Titus 2, 2. second Peter 3.

You don't really see this emphasis on clothing. You see emphasis on character. The Proverbs 31 woman, when it talks about her clothing, it says that she was dressed in purple linen, which brings light to the fact that she was a business woman. She has some wealth. It has nothing to do with her being feminine or girly girl.

When you see Titus 2, it says older women, training the younger to do what? Respect their husbands, love their home. be not drunk all the time. That's character. And so why is it that Christian culture is so focused on someone wearing dresses more than they're focused on someone being humble? That just doesn't make sense to me. Yeah.

Yeah. Also, too, would you say that femininity is character? Like, because I think when people look at you, they might look at your outer exterior. But then when they get to know you and get to know your character, it's like, oh, Jack is actually way more feminine than I thought. I think for the girl on Instagram, for example, she was judging your femininity by looking at you from afar and looking at your outer exterior.

But when you get to know you, it's like, no, like, you're not, you don't act masculine. You don't try to act like a man. But I think you think that. Because I think other people might say that I do act more masculine. But again, that's because we have connected. did assertiveness with masculinity. I don't think that that's intrinsically a masculine trait.

Now, does a man have testosterone? Therefore, it makes him a little more intense than a woman? Absolutely. But to attribute my lack of, what's the word, my lack of gentleness in the, not gentleness as the scriptures prescribes us to be, but gentleness in terms of, hi, guys, do you want some cookies? The fact that we think that that makes somebody a godly woman is crazy. Timmidity is actually not a godly trait. Yeah. That's really good.

Yeah, that's deep because when I first met you, yeah, I didn't think that you wasn't trying to be feminine. But I was also very attractive to the fact that you were assertive, strong woman who knew your voice. And yeah, I never really tripped. I mean, some people might, you know, think or some people have asked me to pass. Like, Preston, how do you feel about Jackie not being like the girly girl with the eyelashes and the weave and the heels and all of that? Me personally, I'm just not attracted to that. Like, I love your style. Even the picture, I don't want to actually say the post because I don't want people going back talking to the girl.

They will. After the hit her podcast. Half of the people that listen to this probably respond to her. It was so many responses. It was crazy. Yeah, but I was like, she looks beautiful and dope and fashionable. You know, like, I don't, yeah. So I think it's all preference, but I think to, for somebody to try to put you in a box,

just because you don't look at certain ways, it's just crazy to me. And I think another thing is that those kinds of, I guess, that, how we understand femininity and womanhood really does meddle with our evangelism and our discipleship. Because I think growing up in church, you had people that they thought that changing your clothes was the same as, repentance. And I think you still have people doing that today where they might have a gay son or daughter, or let's say a gay daughter for clarity, they have a gay daughter and they'll tell her, go put a dress on, go put some makeup on, go do this stop dressing like a boy. And all you've done is that you want your child to take on some works instead of taking on Jesus. Because her changing her clothes doesn't change her nature or her heart.

Preach. But again, that's us thinking that clothing really has more power than it actually does. Yeah. Now, I do think it's safe to say that there is a wisdom in what we dress, how we dress. In one way. So when I was a stud, a lot of times people didn't even know that I was a woman. And I think that that is problematic in the fact that God made me in his image, but he also made me. a woman, Colossians 116 says that all things were made through him and for him.

So even my womanhood, not only me, my being a woman, but my being seen as a woman is to glorify him. And so I think that when we dress in a way that somehow hides our womanhood or makes it a little confusing. And by that, I mean, like you literally project a masculine self where people don't know that you're female. I think that that does leave room for God's glory not to be seen in how he created you. Does it make sense? That's really good. That's really good. And I think that's good because I think one of the reasons why you might get a comment like that from somebody on social media is because in their mind, they literally think that you're trying to suppress your womanness.

Right. Because of because I wear a T-shirt. Yeah. Because they have submitted to what culture has said about womanhood and femininity. But, you know, it's no different for me growing up. I mean, we talk about, you know, femininity, but also I grew up in this super hypermasculine culture. Right. Where if a dude didn't act a certain way, if a dude, you know, wasn't strong or wasn't tough or whatever, he was considered a girl or soft or gay, just ignorant comments like that.

We made all while we were growing up or whatever. It wasn't until I became a Christian. And me and you have, you know, mutual friends right now. who are not the masculine man that society in our culture will deem as masculine. Right. Very, I don't want to use, it's the word, effeminate. Affeminate, I suppose. Yeah.

I don't like that word, but it is in the Bible, so. Yeah, like, not just, but like when I got to know them and became friends with him, like they are just as much a man as I am. Yeah. You know, they take care of their family. They love their wives. Yeah, and they serve their community. And their men, like the culture doesn't have to shape our masculinity and our femininity.

Yeah. The Bible does. Yeah. It really does. Now, and I think, again, to my point, like the post in particular, there's a difference between me wearing a T-shirt and there's a difference of me wearing a T-shirt, but under that, I've flattened my chest. There's a difference between me wearing jeans and there's a difference between me wearing jeans where I'm sagging to mimic a kind of male self. There's a, you give me what I'm saying?

Yeah, you're basically saying there's some intentional ways in which people can mask the glory of God and how he has made them. Yeah, that's why I was just going to ask. In their body. Because if you, because if you're, you're basically saying if you're hiding the way God has made you, it's, it's, it's, that's not healthy either. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's muddy. Yeah, I don't, I don't, because I don't want to make it seem as if I'm saying, oh, doesn't even matter what you wear. It's just all about character. No, it does matter how we present ourselves,

but it doesn't matter in the way I think culture has told us it matters. Right. I think God does want us to be intentional about hiding or concealing ourselves out of fear or out of confusion or out of whatever it might be. But I also don't think that a lot of the modern expressions of jeans or T-shirts or not wearing pink and not, you know, liking to watch notebook every six months. Like, I don't think those things are womanly. I remember one time you had on one outfit and I think that it's the first time you wore purse,

I think. And somebody on... What, three weeks ago? Yeah, like three weeks ago. I like to color the bag, but that's gross. Yeah. And that's what I'm going to say. I don't like the word purse.

Somebody, DM me was like, God is your name. using you to change jacket. She's really growing. Oh, you didn't tell me that. I forgot. I forgot to tell you that. Okay. And they tagged the picture of the purse.

Got it. It was like, oh, so this purse indicates. That means I'm growing. Growing into what? She didn't even say, I didn't, you know, I didn't feel like talking to her. So I didn't ask her in what way. I was tired of carrying my keys in my hands. Right.

But I assumed that she was talking about, you know, being more. feminine because you saw a purse or a bag that you liked and you got it on your and that's to a degree that's fair it is it is i think if you followed me from when i first i had a youtube video when i was 19 till now i do think you see a progression yeah and i think a part of that is age like i'm 30 now and so i'm starting to be uh attentive to and having affection for things i just didn't when I was fresh out of the world. Right. But I think having children, I think changes you a bit.

I think being pregnant and raising daughters and just, I think something about that has kind of made me feel much more willing to embrace like feminine expressions in the way that I wasn't comfortable with before. Yeah. And I can see how that's fair, like for somebody who follows you from the beginning. It's like, oh, I've never seen her, you know. with a bag or a purse and now you have a bag or a purse. But I do think that it also speaks to just how our culture just views what femininity is.

It's like, yeah, like, how does that literally indicate her growth as a woman? Yeah. You know? And a lot of this, the crazy thing is, I don't feel, and I could be wrong, I don't feel like a lot of the, a lot of the feminine social constructs that we're talking about are even put on us from second. culture. In a certain way it is. But I do think it's the church. Like when you read these books on biblical womanhood, they have whole entire chapters about the tone of your voice and how you're supposed to dress and all the- And I get it. I think there's wisdom in having these kinds of conversations. That's why Peter is like, don't let your, you know, adorning be gold and great. Like there is some wisdom and advocating

for a certain expression of self. But I think it gets sticky because many people start to believe that the way they express themselves as a woman has to be the standard of how women are to be expressed, especially in white evangelicalism, which they have been the ones who wrote most of the books of biblical womanhood. So you have people trying to embody a 1950s caricature of a white woman versus just being themselves as led by the Spirit of God. Let me ask you a question. That's good. But let me ask you a question. Do you think that that God was intentional with not making you like this quintessential girly girl, you know, that the, I guess, the coaching society deems is girly? But at the same time, using you in such great ways to help a lot of women around the world walk into a biblical woman is.

You know what I'm saying? I just think that's like a dope. Yeah, I think there's, yeah, I think God uses the foolish things of the world to compound the wise. And I kind of think that, one, he, by just using me in the way that he used me, I think he's given visibility to so many Christian women who dress like me and act like me who don't feel like they've been represented. it. I think when I was a newer Christian, all of the women who had influence just didn't look like I just could not relate to them. Like, look at me in my bag and my Bible with my succulent plant. Like I just was like, that's just not, I just cannot relate to you. And so I think that I think that's just God's kindness to be able to put somebody else up to say, you don't have to look like them to honor me. But I also think it is. I think it's somehow stripped away, like those who do look at biblical womanhood in terms of culture rather than context. I think that I guess my representation and me talking about womanhood and the way that I talk about it has stripped away those things that aren't helpful. Because they recognize that the way they've been seeing things is not actually as they are or how it should be seen, if that makes sense. Yeah, almost like a wake-up call.

Like, wow, like what I thought about biblical. womanhood is coming from somebody who I'd never thought it would come from. Yes. Yeah. That's dope. Yeah. I think it says that God wants to and can use anybody, whether you're a tomboy or whether you're a girly girl and even tomboy.

Think about that. Like you're saying, because if somebody wants to wear basketball shirts, they're acting boyish. It's just like, okay, God is given athletic ability to both sexes. So again, like watching our language and how we speak. about people, I think would be wise and loving. That's good. That's good. Yeah, so if you want anybody to walk away with this podcast knowing one or two or three things, what do you want them to walk away with?

I think we would do well to study, I guess, gendered expression in the scriptures. So over the past year or so, I don't like using his word because it's played out, but I have tried to decolonize. is my theology. And by that, I mean, looking at the scriptures and trying to discern, am I interpreting the scriptures with the scriptures or am I interpreting the scriptures with someone else's understanding of the scriptures that have actually been informed by their culture and not by the spirit? And so I think that's what I would challenge people to do is when you read, let's say it's all the verses related to womanhood. That's Genesis 1 and 2, Proverbs 31, Titus 2, 1st B to 3. It's probably some more. I just don't remember. Like when you read them, just just read them as they are and be able to discern when

culture is speaking into your interpretation. You have to, you have to disregard that and lay that to the side. And I think that that would help us to embody a right in a biblical womanhood, right in a biblical womanhood, but also to be able to preach and empower other women to do the same thing. And so I would say that. I would also say to those women that don't feel comfortable as women. I really do understand that tension. But I think when I said Colossians 116, that really did do something for me to realize that God made me a woman on purpose. It was an accident. It was an happenstance. Like he did it not only for his glory, but for my good. And we have a real living enemy who wants me not to delight in the things that God has given me to enjoy.

God has given me this body for joy. God is giving me this body for glory. God is giving me this body for glory. including my hips, including my estrogen, including my period, including all of these things. All of these things are not just so God can be seen, but so that I can enjoy what God is giving me as a gift. And so that takes work, that takes time, that takes humility and submission. But I think the more you fall in love with God, the more you can fall in love with the body that God is giving you. Yeah, yeah, that's good.

That's good. And it's dope that you spoke directly to the woman who might feel like they have so much pressure from the church or just culture to be this woman that the Bible doesn't call them to be. But I have a question just particularly when it deals with the church because earlier it seemed as if you were saying, which I agree with, that culture in a lot of ways has influenced the church, which has influenced people in the church to think that, oh, this is true femininity. So what would you say directly to the church? Because I think that's a big deal.

And I think that the church, if the church kind of changes how we look at the scriptures and don't allow outside culture to influence the Bible, but allow the Bible to influence the culture. I mean, I think what I said in terms of just reading the Bible as it is and being willing to consider the fact that your interpretations are not right and not true and that they are damaging to people. I think it's interesting, even when you look at trans men and trans women, how both when a lot of times, not all the time, but when a man transitions into a woman or a woman transitions into a man, what they transition into is a hyper-masculine or hyper-feminine self. You don't see Bruce Jenner. He thought he became a woman because he got big boobs and got red lipstick and got long hair. He did not become a tomboy. Why? Because he wanted to embody what the culture has said women are, which is we are just our chest.

Wow. And we are just our makeup. And we are just the length of our hair. And so I think that is a product of us not teaching an accurate description of what it means to be male and female in this world. And it's crazy when the church looks the same way. So we got work, but the spirit is sanctifying us. And so he's going to finish the work in us that he started. And I'm looking forward to the fact. that even though there is much confusion in all of us, even though there is much a deception that we have to resist, there is coming a day where we have a new heaven and a new earth and a new body. And our bodies will still be gendered, but we will enjoy them fully and freely.

And so that's good news. Yeah. Well, man, I think that's all our time. I think that you're a beautiful wife and a beautiful woman. And I love you. Appreciate it. I love you to death. Oh, my God.

Bye, y'all.