With The Perrys - How to be a Christian When Persecuted

Episode Date: June 22, 2026

Earlier this month, Jackie found herself at the center of a Threads post that generated a whole lot of conversation. It got her and Preston thinking about the opposition we face as Christians because of a worldview that is confusing to unbelievers. NOTE: For most of us, the persecution we face is social in nature – that’s different from persecution others face around the world when they risk their lives professing Christ. As Christians, we’re not supposed to defend ourselves. We’re supposed to preach the gospel and leverage opposition as an opportunity to point others to Jesus. Jackie and Preston discuss a helpful framework for approaching unbelievers, why it’s important to lead with compassion, and the reason why both prayer and patience are required for those conversations. Scripture References: 2 Corinthians 4:4-6 1 Peter 3:15-16 Nehemiah 4:17–18 This Episode is Sponsored By: https://shopify.com/perry — Sign up for your $1 per-month trial today! - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Wayfair, every style, every home. What up? What up? Jackie Hill Perry. I was going to say your middle name, but I was like, I don't know if you want me to sit there long. Can you put your neck back? My neck all crazy? Yeah, just look loose. Yeah, it's one of them.

Which would be fine if you were standing. On the couch, you look, hungry. The sweater is actually really hard. It's probably not made for, like, sitting down. No, it's not made for sitting down. That's made for, like, standing up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, my goodness.

I look like I was in the 1980 man. Tuck it here. This is real time. We can take none of this out. There you go. You keep tucking and then pull it back down. You do it for me. I don't know what.

I don't need to do it. I don't know what you want me to do. I can't see myself. I'm saying if you grab the back of your shirt and pull it down and then sit on it. there you go. You get pulling it back down. I ain't know what you want to do that.

I'm just because them clips. Sometimes your neck chest be out. You be looking like you just woke up. And I know you don't mean to look that way, but it's just the positioning of your shirt. Thank you for helping me. Thank you for being a helper. Okay.

I just wanted to say when we be out in the street sometimes, y'all be coming up to us, and y'all call me by my first name, and then y'all call Preston Perry. And by that, I mean, I've heard people call you Perry too. That's very. Most people know my name.

There's no alliteration in my name to be confusing. I've heard people say Perry twice with you, but most time they say Perry with me. Yeah, 98% of the time. I don't have to correct it. That's why it's such a unique experience. However, with you, it's... Yeah, y'all be calling me Perry like I'm in the military. Yeah.

What up Perry? I'd be like, wow. I think maybe it's anxiety and fear where Perry, Preston just gets flipped in their mind. I don't know, a little bit of dyslexia. And then I've had a couple of people call me Pearson. I'm like, why? I don't look like a Pearson. You don't look like Preston, either.

That's true. Yeah, you look like DeAndre. But anyway. What? What is that supposed to mean? You look like your name should be black. No one is shocked by that assessment. What is a black name?

DeAndre. We live in 2006. That is unacceptable. John John. A little something. Like, you, Preston? Preston. Preston.

You're from the south side of Chicago. You grew up in the projects. Preston? I think you need to be canceled. Speaking of cancellation. Start. I'm glad your mom named you Preston. I think it's a really...

Yeah, she was like, my son going to grow up in the hood, but he's not going to have a hood name. Yeah, I think we are always fighting against white supremacy. And so we are always trying to make sure that, on their resumes, they might not. I know what color this child is. So let me name them a name that's going to get them head in life.

Yeah, my mom was smart. My auntie Nala was like, why you name that boy pressing? She was like, job interviews, duh. It's a thing. Anyhow, we had an interesting situation on, well, really I, I don't know, is it we. I had an interesting situation on social media a couple weeks ago, Well, there was just a big kerfuffle because someone said happy Pride Month to Jackie Hill Perry and it just started this like thing.

And I think what's so funny is that social media is so, what's the word, easily distracted? Because I knew, I was like, this going to last maybe three, four days. And literally it did. Like it's like it'll be so big, big, big, big. And then somebody talking about something else. And so, but I think in light of that situation, and kind of the back and forth between the Christian community and those who would probably call themselves a part of the Christian community, but affirming and those that are totally affirming,

those who are part of the X-Gate community, those who are part of the actively gay community. Like there was just a lot of conversation happening. And I responded simply with the encouragement that we're not supposed to defend ourselves. We're supposed to preach the gospel, leverage these opportunities to point to Jesus. Jesus, point to what he did, that he saved sinners. We're supposed to be curious about what God does when these types of situations come up. And we're supposed to pray for people that are lost and confused and blind and legitimately don't understand why somebody could hold a position that says, no, I'm going to take up my cross daily

and die. And I think the shock or surprise or even encouragement that came from it was like, I think we should talk about how to handle persecution, how to handle opposition for our faith. Yeah. Because I don't think the average person will go through opposition in the way that I do or that you do. That's not average, but every Christian will in some capacity. And so, yeah. Yeah, that's good.

That was a really long introduction. I'm really sorry. No, I think it was good. I think it was helpful. Not everybody. Not everybody saw it. But one of the things that I wasn't frustrated with the little threat. or whatever, you know what I'm saying?

Yeah, I really wasn't offended. I know. But that's the thing, though. I was about to say, like, as soon as, well, after that I start traveling, like, I just got back from Raleigh and stuff like that. And so everywhere I went, people was approaching me like, tell Jackie to hold on. And I'm like, what are y'all talking about? Like, I think social media has this ability to make things way bigger than what they are.

And if everybody's talking about something, people are like, Jackie must be going through it. I'm like, I mean, I could be. I wouldn't, I wouldn't. But I feel like, I feel like, I wouldn't like discount the fact that, yeah, you got a bunch of people talking. A part of the reason I wasn't as discouraged to the degree that they might have assumed is because I didn't engage with the conversation. Because I've learned that over the years.

When you read comment after comment after comment of people disparaging you, you will be discouraged. But I've also learned how to guard my heart when it comes to these types of things. And so I literally read that comment and a, you know, in another, the one comment that made me feel the type of way is from somebody who literally shouldn't have been talking. But other than that, like when I say I wanted to say the smartest thing, but other than that, so I think it's fair for people to be empathetic.

Yeah, I just think that like, you know, when I think about, because I wasn't even thinking about the comments, I was just thinking about the initial comment, I'm like, that initial comment in comparison to you being processed at Harvard and you still taught anyways, Like you literally taught in a room full of liberal people Hate you Yeah

You know saying like Curcing me out Happy Pride one Jackie Hill Perry Woo It's like What is that going to do What's funny is I saw the comment When it had

Like a couple comments And I like I remember I was on the toilet And I smiled I was wow that's funny And then I forgot about it And then

A couple days later Dr. Sarita had responded to it and because I followed her her response pulled it back up on my thread and then I saw that it was doing numbers I was like oh and then I was seeing that there are some like cats with like larger platforms that were a part of the conversation

and so I was like oh this is becoming a thing Can I tell you what I told my homeboys so like the day afterwards I was kicking it with my homies three of my homies and we was at one of my homeboy spots and he brought it up the day after it kind of blew up. And I said, I said, what y'all got to understand about?

One of them asks like how is Jackie holding up, how is she doing? I said, what you got to understand? Jackie is a discipleship maker. She's been to capitalize off of this. She's like, okay, how many souls? I don't appreciate the gospel. Thanks, devil. I'm like, Jackie's at home researching stuff,

trying to figure out how she can like use this to point people back to the gospel. She can use this to point people back to Jesus. And I was just like, you know, I told one of my homeboys, because one of my homeboys is like, that's really dope. And I was like, yeah, but if you look at it, it's not just dope. It's biblical. Yes. God always used persecution to point people back to the gospel.

That's how the church grew. That's how the church thrived. Yes. It was through persecution. And so, like, I think people got to really understand that when the enemy does something, God is always doing something greater. Yeah. And he's sovereign.

And so, like, yeah, just keep that in mind. And so. Give in to, so I think to say that I didn't have moments of discouragement would not be true during that week. I had incredible moments of discouragement. But it wasn't in light of the persecution. It was in light of the trials and suffering I'm already going through. So it felt like that was an attempt from Satan to just try to swing on me again. Like anything, it was just like, you really like, you really?

you really trying to come from my neck. And so that was the larger thing. But I think immediately when I started to pray and ask the Lord what he wanted me to do about it, I felt like I just remembered Paul in Ephesus. And Paul, particularly in Ephesus, and how like he over here, is that when he came from Artemis or something?

I don't know. I just know when you read the book of Acts, every time Paul got persecuted, it positioned him to preach. Every single time, whether that was to the jailers, whether that was to Roman authorities, whether that was to people in the synagogues, his persecution always, like he never saw it as, oh, woe is me, I'm such a great Christian, and now they don't want me to talk about the God. That is so

ridiculous, ridiculous in American to spend time for preaching for pity. And I think people, like, I think people get, they thrive off of feeling like a victim. And it's like, no, this actually ain't about you. They're swinging on you because God wants you to talk about it. about them. That's so good. Period. It ain't about you. That is so good.

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Not only did Paul use every persecution moment to preach, he really just used every moment. Yeah. Like even in Acts chapter 3 when he healed the man that was lame in the synagogue outside the beautiful gate. I mean, he started preaching the gospel immediately afterwards. And then they threw him in jail. And then the authorities.

I thought that was Peter. They healed the man outside the gate. Oh, yeah. I was talking about Peter. Yeah, I'm sorry. Paul and Peter, yeah, yeah. But all of them. They used the apostles.

The apostles. Yeah, they all used the gospel persecution, but any moment. And I'm like, like, because Pastor Phil and Mitchell always saying time is running out. And in a lot of ways, it is. And because time is running out, like, how can you utilize persecution, healing, whatever it is to preach to gospel and point people back to Jesus? Which while we're here. it's not going to be natural to preach the gospel when persecuted if you don't preach it at all. But you also won't be persecuted if you don't preach it at all.

And so maybe some of us are sitting listening like, oh, I don't think I've ever been persecuted. I don't think I've ever been talked crazy to because of my faith. I don't think I've ever been mistreated. And it's like, well, maybe you're not wearing your cross. Like there has to be some way in which you show up in the world where if you show up and there is nothing about your witness that's offensive to darkness, then you're, there's too much amishment with how you move and how scripture demands you to move. And that's not to say, I think some people try to provoke persecution, which is still self-centered and narcissistic. Like you're just offensive. Yeah. So you're not actually sharing the gospel.

you're being mean, and then people respond, and you're like, I'm being persecuted. It's like, no, you are an a-hole. Yeah, because I think some people do that on purpose. Some people, like, make it seem like people are just coming for their neck so they can be like, I'm a giant in the favor. You're literally disrespectful. Yeah, yeah. So, no, it's not even merely, I don't like the gospel.

I don't like you. Right. I don't like you as a person. Because the way you deliver the gospel, it just, your so-called truth, you delivered in a garbage bag, and I don't know, dignifying platter. Correct. So I just, I don't know, I want to call out if there's never any opposition, I think it's time to interrogate and ask the Lord, am I timid cowardly? Am I not living a certain kind of way that would warrant demons to hate me? But also, if I am always basking in and boasting about persecution,

it might be that you're trying to draw that out of people and you're actually not even, you don't even care about souls. You just like how good it makes you feel for people not So, yeah, I think, yeah, I do think a lot of us have to be like Peter. I love what Peter wrote to Timothy when he was in prison. The second time he got arrested in prison, and he said, I, Paul, I'm in prison, I'm in prison labeled as a criminal, literally mean an evil doer. And so, like, and then he says, but the gospel's not bound. The gospel's not a change.

He says, therefore, I do all things for the sake of the elect that they might obtain salvation through Jesus Christ with eternal glory. And when I hear things like that, it's like you were so gospel-minded when you were arrested in prison for something that you did not do. Mm-hmm. And you still have this gospel-minded, I just don't know if the average Christian, even myself, will be thinking about salvation

if I'm in prison for something that I didn't do. I don't think we, I don't think, because I think we're really self-centered. I think Paul, but particularly, obviously, Jesus, they had a mission. Yeah. And they also, they had a mission and a knowledge, of God that says that God is so providential that everywhere I go on this path is not a distraction

from the mission. It's a part of the mission. So if that's in jail, I'm still on the mission. If that's in the synagogue, I'm still on the mission. If that's while I'm on the boat and the ship is about to sing. He over here praying and he's like, yeah, the Lord told me that we ain't going die. We just got to throw everything overboard because he still got people to say. Every single moment was a missional moment. And I think, yeah, that just matters. I think, yeah, that just matters. as long as we think we're just living for ourselves and not living for the gospel, then we're going to be not used as greatly as we could be. Yeah, yeah.

We were talking about this before we started and you said that she was going to ask me a question, but I'm going to ask you the question first. Okay. You know, I'm still your question. That's fine. You did say something in the beginning. You said, you know, persecution. You're persecuted on levels that probably like the average Christian is not.

and I am as well. Right. But when you first became a Christian, just for the Christian who might be listening, who still persecuted to some level. Yeah. What was the first time you could remember as an early Christian you were persecuted

and how did you deal with it? How did the Lord stretch you, how to the Lord grow you through it and all the things? I want to put a small caveat. One thing is even the word persecution or like sometimes I like broaden it out to opposition for your. faith, even though persecution is a more

succinct way to say it. And I say that because I'm always really sensitive to how people in other nations and other countries that are part of the church are going through persecution that we cannot fathom. Our persecution is social persecution. They talk about you on threes. They unfollow you. They bash you. You might lose your job. You might, you know, your family might not like you. That's different

than you're going to get your head chopped off if you claim the name, like the name. like the name of Christ. So I just, I'm always sensitive to like what we going through is light work compared to that. But anyway, I think for me,

um, when I first became a Christian at 19, even the day after I became a Christian, I got on Facebook, I put my prom picture on my profile picture because that was the only picture that I looked like a girl. And I put on my status, like I'm free in Christ or something like that.

And I, I just started telling the truth immediately. Like it just wasn't, like my temperament was already really bold in a way. And so- You was ready for the smoke immediately. One, I didn't know there was smoke. I didn't know, but I also knew what I experienced. And so because I knew for a fact I was a different person,

it didn't matter what y'all thought. It was like, like the sky is blue. Like, y'all want me to say it's green. I can't say it's green. I've experienced it's blueness. And so I feel like the first time I experienced some type of opposition was I went to a poetry event. And I think I did my life as a stud. I'm sure I did.

I don't know. And this older stud came up to me, mind you, I'm 19. I look like a child. Talk about you could be delivered. And she was like trying to like son me. like talk to me like oh babe you know like well not even that's all because she was the like you know uh god love us all and i'm like i'm not arguing that he doesn't love us all and she i just remember praying and not feeling intimidated by her height by her position even by her demeanor i just remember

i was just so convinced and i remember she said something like you just young you got to live a little bit like you don't you don't know what you're talking about you just got live a little bit i said but the Bible says that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. So it's possible. Apologies, a young apologies. It's possible that I actually know more than you because I fear God. Maybe I didn't even say that real nice. I'm pretty sure I didn't. But I remember that scripture coming to my mind. I wish I was there. I don't know. That would have excited me. So I think I think that's the first time that I realized that people is not that they want to just argue with your position. It's it's like they hate you. Does it make sense?

That's what makes it different is that we're not just talking about ideas here. You got a beef with me. Right. You know what I? Like you're talking to me. Like you want to fight me. Because your position threatens their idolatry. Idolatry or who they are or their identity who they think is our identity.

What is really idolatry. And I get it, you know. I remember feeling judged by Christians when I was in the world. It was just like I used to hate when they come to our neighborhood and the Angelized. It's like, bro, you're selling weed. Like, go home. You know what I'm saying? And so I get it. I do think that when light shows up and you're comfortable with darkness, it's uncomfortable. It's like, why you shining the light over here? Like, we're cool over here. And so I completely, I completely get it. I think when we think about persecution, we think about bogus people. I know sometimes I do. Like people who are just sinful, but a lot of times the enemy use very natural means. I think most people are very reasonable. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just like, people, the enemy used very natural means to persecution, for example. Like when I first became a Christian, my early days or whatever, you know, I left from being on my mama's side, which was all hood people, you know, so I grew up.

So I grew up my mom to my dad's side and I ended up giving my life to the Lord in my family, a family church. And I mean, it was like deeply Pentecostal, you know, and a lot of them loved me well. But when I first became a Christian, I was so, I grew up so differently than them. I was still rough around the edges. I was a hood baby. You know, and when I gave my life to the Lord, I gave my life to the Lord in a very untraditional way. And looking back now, I could see that was a sovereignty of the Lord. He didn't want me to do like the whole, a lot of the, what seemed to be antics in the church. But you didn't say he shahda. Yeah. No, I didn't, you know, like it was like this thing where we had to like run. And like the Lord knew I wouldn't have done that. As a matter of fact,

like a week later, they tried to make me run and I was like, that's crazy. I don't feel like running. Like, there's nothing in me that wants me to be like, ah, you know what I'm saying? It's just like, you know, but I had a real encounter. You know what I'm saying? I had a real encounter with the Lord in my room. Like, he really met me.

Like I was really, really broken over my sin. And I just remember feeling the love of God, the peace of God, the conviction. I stopped doing all the things and I remember the first earliest times of persecution is when I felt like nobody believed that I was a real Christian and just criticizing me and even

That's like the Apostle Paul and some of Corinthians and Galatians or even Acts when he first got saved nobody believed that because of how terrible he was Yeah Yeah Are you one of those media-strients? strategy people, clicking through slides, scrolling spreadsheets. Yes? Good. This is for you. Because on Spotify, there's an audience that's different.

Locked in. Loyal, invested. They're called fans. Fans don't just listen to music. They feel seen by it, like it belongs to them. So when your brand shows up on Spotify, that's who you're talking to. And you're right next to artists like me, Lizzo. So, are you ready to talk to fans? Spotify advertising. You're among fans. Yeah, and I think because I didn't have, like I didn't sound churched. I didn't sound, you know, like them. I didn't talk like them.

And I think a lot of, and I actually saw that, like, even some people who, you know, stray away from the church, they came to their church and became Christian. And it's like, it was like, it was almost like uniformity was like unity to them. It's just like, y'all talk and act. And I'm like, I just don't, you know what I mean? And so even then I had a lot of just my own individualism, you know, And just I had to have the evidence of speaking in tongues. I had to look a certain way.

I had to act a certain way. Not with everybody in the church, but with some people. And I remember feeling really depressed early on. And the Lord had to show me, you know, later like, no, this is your test being tried immediately. Your faith? Your faith being tested. I'm sorry, immediately. Like, this is immediate opposition.

So that was like some of the earliest days of what I felt. like opposition and persecution for me that I had to wrestle with. But I think the Lord, in this sovereignty, use it to show me that he, in a lot of ways, never wants me to change because of the people that he wants me to reach. And so I've never lost that. I've always kept it in mind, but God used that persecution to shape me into the person than I am now. And I think because of that, you know, now you have a book called How to Tell the Truth, where I'm not ashamed to talk about the south side of Chicago and so many people I've been blessed by

because I didn't conform to what I think a black Christian supposed to be. And so, yeah, I think God wants to use opposition and persecution for his glory. Yeah, I think I want to dig into kind of the human element happening when people oppose people of faith. You understand what I'm saying? because to me

Are you talking about like how the real emotions of the person that's actually doing the persecution? Is that what you're saying? Yeah, basically the psychology what's happening in the opposer because to me

having an awareness, a sensitivity to the human component behind people offended by the gospel gives me empathy for people that are offended by the gospel. That's cold air. That's really good. You know what I'm saying?

Like, because, Because I've seen, like, in some spaces, they talk about people who are offended, like they're degenerate or unable to think or unable to reason. And it's like, are they sinners? Yes. Is there depravity? Yes. Is there hardness of heart? Yes. Are they idolaters? Yes. But they are also made in the image of God. They are also gifted with graces from God. They also are still under the dispensation of grace and therefore available to change or repent if only we love them well. And so I think holding both of those realities, realities together, it changes how we show up. Because I say that like, if you see somebody just as an idolater and not as a person, you're going

treat them that way. Yeah, that's good. If you see them just as a sinner and not as somebody who also has rational capacities to have a reasonable conversation, I think we need to see people. whole beings. And so that's why I'm able to talk to anybody. Like you, you could have had sex with a horse. Yeah. Do you understand what I'm saying? Beastiology. I'm here. You could, you could be in love with bumblebees. And I'm still going to talk to you with no ounce of judgment because I'm interested in you as a person. But I also have a knowledge of God that gives me a

precise way to talk through who you are, why you are the way you are, and who he is, and let those, bring those things together. Does that make sense what I'm saying? It makes a lot of sense. It makes a lot of sense because, you know, I teach just a lot of my evangelism workshops. Because I tell people all the time, when you say Preston, you could never be bold like me, or you could never do evangelism like me. I tell people all the time, often what I hear is, I'm really not prepared for the persecution that comes with sharing the Gospels of the world that hates it. That's what I often hear. But also, Also what I hear is like either I'm not ready for the persecution or I'm just not prepared to handle people.

Are you talking about something different than what I'm talking about? No, I was going there. You're about the connected. Yeah, I was about the connected. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or I hear people saying like I'm really, I don't really know how to handle sinners. I don't know how to handle people. even though I used to be a sinner,

I just don't know how to sit under the weight of somebody who is obviously not rocking with the Lord, obviously hating the Christian church. I just don't know how to handle that. And so one thing I'll try to do is throw scripture at them, you know what I'm saying? Or I just have a lack of grace. And I think the Bible,

and I think God wants us to like sit in the tension of people's sin. It's like how do I meet this person where they are, even if the person hates me. That's the hard thing. You know what I'm saying? And so in evangelism, I had to deal with persecution. I had to deal with people not liking me.

But I had to push past why they don't like me. And it's really you don't like the Lord. And it's like I had to dig. I have to investigate. And then once I dig, it's like in the conversation, we find the middle ground. It's like, oh, you really, it's really, it's really, mean that that you don't hate. It's the Lord you have a problem with.

Yeah, but it's also like there's, some of this is natural, right? So it's like if I'm having a conversation with anybody that's guarded about anything, how I show up in my affect can play a part in them letting down their guard. So as I'm communicating hard things, I've built some degree of trust,

even if it's a 10, 15 minute conversation that allows the gospel to be, heard and considered simply because of how I am showing up. The Bible is telling the truth when it says to be harmless as a dove and crafty as a serpent. You know what I'm saying? Crafty is wise. I'm being thoughtful. I'm being intentional. But harmless has to do with my demeanor. And so if I feel harmful, like the words I'm saying are not actually harmful if they're true. What are you about to say? No, absolutely. Because everything you're saying is so true. Like, and that's why we're trying to tell you, a great evangelist.

Like you, like you, the stuff you be knowing, the stuff you did, that's so good. Okay. What's your response? Yeah, yeah. What I was going to say is I think what people got to realize is that Christians, we are like, like, we're confusing to the world. You really have to understand how confusing the Christian worldview is.

Like when you talk into an unbeliever and they actually are living in a very human reality, to say that we have been received the Holy Spirit, that God has given us the power to overcome sin, that we have the power to defeat sin and death, that we have the power to say no to our temptations. We kind of seem like we're not human to people who are actually just living in their reality. Because a lot of people, but a lot of people have not met Christians.

They've met people with a form of godliness. Yes. And so you presume that the churchy and the arrogant and the egotistical and the super pretentious and pompous way of life where we don't do this and we don't play cards and we don't go to the casino and we don't do this and they know more about what you're against than who you love and so if you think that's Christianity then of course they don't want you always absolutely so I think some of the work we got to do is that we are following up a whole

behind a whole bunch of people that have made Christianity something other than what it was actually created to be which is about Jesus that's good yeah true and that's why I love That's why I just got excited when you said, you know, going to situations with talking to people who oppose your faith with like, with confessions and leading with your humanity. Because I do think a lot of times we prolong our persecution, still trying to talk to non-Christians with Christian lingo, Christian scriptures. And it's just like, no, sometimes unbeliever needs to hear. You know what? I still struggle with that, bro. For sure.

I still struggle with. with this. Even though when you talk about how you still have some temptations, they still try to like persecution. I don't even want to go there. But it is what it is. And mind you,

I was on the phone with somebody. I said they over here making all this Rickaborow around same-sex attraction. I said the sin I'm struggling with the most is pride. I said pick the right one to talk about. We're going to talk about

like what I struggle? Like struggle? Like it's arrogance. But anyway, I think it's like y'all are picking on wrong thing. Facts. That's how you know they're not discerning.

I'm your husband, I know. They're being followed by the devil. Okay, I want to give some scriptures that I think are helpful frameworks in how we should approach unbelievers. And I think it gives us a bit of like empathy and just like it's okay. So one is Roman. Unbelievers who persecute you. Yeah, I mean, unbelievers in general, but yeah, especially when they persecutes you.

2 Corinthians 4, Paul says, even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. In their case, the God of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. Paul's. That's good. I love this scripture. I found this scripture when I was like a newer believer. it's just stay with me because of the following verses. But when you are talking to a person who is not a Christian,

you are talking to someone who is categorically blind. And I remember in a poem, I said, how do you explain the sun to someone who can't see? Yeah. Eyes like Judas. It's a really good poem. Y'all should go look at eyes like Judas about Jackie up here. If no one has ever seen the sun,

then that means even in my explanation of the sun, that requires patience. They don't know what you're talking about. All they know is darkness. And Romans 1 tells us that what they think they know is, like what they know they think is actually wise. And so even their assessment of the darkness to them makes more sense than your like confession of the light.

It does it. They are clashing. And so I think knowing that you're talking to a blind person is a part of the thing that should give you, not only patience, empathy, but also a prayerfulness. Where does the book go? Because if I'm talking to somebody that's blind, Presta Perry.

If I'm talking to someone that is blind, I can't make them see. Yeah. So not only in this conversation, do I need to be patient, do I need to have empathy, I also need to be prayerful because it means that I am actually participating with God

in helping them see, but I'm not God. Yeah. Yeah, and can I just bring it back to, and this is not me. And I want to read the following verses. Okay, you could read it first, and then I'll say what I want to say. This is important because this is, this, I tell you, like, everything I do when it comes

to ministry in the world, this is my framework. And so remember, in their case, the God of this world has blinded the minds of unbelievers to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of glory of Christ. So when you preach the gospel to your family, to your cousin, and you don't understand, why they don't get it. It's because they're blind. Like the enemy is keeping them from seeing Jesus and what you're saying.

However, comma, Paul says, what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord with ourselves as servants for Jesus' sake. Meaning when we preach, we preach Jesus. We don't preach law. We preach Jesus. We don't preach prosperity.

We preach Jesus. We don't preach hell and damnation unless it's a part of what happens when you reject Jesus. And so making Jesus the centerpiece of our preaching is our call. Why? Because God in His grace uses the preaching of Jesus to do verse 7. For God who said, right six, for God who said, let light shine out of darkness as Genesis

has shown in our hearts to give. That's a grace. That's a gift. The light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. So preaching the gospel is the means by which God gives people the ability to see him. So it means that sight is a gift and a grace that comes by preaching the gospel. So you can't just say, oh, well, I can't save nobody. No, God has set you on mission because he wants to use you to bring light.

Yeah, that's so good. And so we are always dependent on God to attend the preaching of his words so that blind people can actually see him. That's so good. And what I was going to say was I want to just, I want to go back to the girl who made the thread because like when I just came back from a conference and people people were like I'm so I was so surprised how Jackie responded could have been me but I'm like no like if that if the person who made that tweet or that thread is blind Jackie responding giving her the smoke would not help her see no it just won't help her see no and it's just like if that's fighting with carnal weapons if she's if she's

blind she actually needed you to respond in that way because that was the only way that she will be able to see the light of the gospel. And that's what we have to understand. The enemy always wants us to respond in our flesh, not just so that we can be in trouble with the Lord. So the people that's mad at us won't be able to see. Go ahead. I'm sparking your mind.

Because I'm going to say something else, if you want to say it real quick. I'll just say it quickly. Because our witness is not just in what caused the persecution. Our witness is also in our response to it. Like, you know how strange it was for these apostles and these disciples to be beaten and thrown in jail and for them to rejoice and be in jail singing? It's because Paul and Silas are in jail singing that cats are like, how can I be saved?

It's the response to the persecution. That's good. That is as much a witness as what caused the persecution. That's so good. And it communicates that I am dealing with someone who is actually not natural. because the natural man cannot discern the things of the spirit. And so you see me responding and you see Christians responding in ways that say, I don't think I'm dealing with, like they're not acting like humans act.

And it's because I'm being led by the spirit who was not human. That's fine. And so I think we need to see that how we deal with offense is also a part of our witness. Yeah, that's so good. That's so good. What I was about to say, you know, everybody know I love apologetics. the most famous apology, other than Jude, most famous apologetic scriptures, First Peter 315, but it's really talking to, like, what people don't really realize is that that scripture is talking to the persecuted church, right? And so, like, we know that apologetics arise from the Greek

word apology, which means make a defense. But in First Peter 315, it says, honor the Lord is holy, always being prepared to make a defense for anyone who actually, for the reason, for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and respect. So it talks about gentleness and respect. But this is when he talks about the persecution. The next sentence it says, so that when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.

And so that's what people don't realize. And so, yes, it is talking about an apologetic argument, being ready to be prepared. But he's saying, being ready to be prepared with people who persecuting you, with people who are slandering you, do it with gentleness and respect so that when it happens,

your conduct, your behavior, you're not being natural, but being spiritual in moments like that will put their behavior to shame and that shame will eventually lead them to Jesus. That's what he's saying. So he's not saying have like an apologetic debate. He's saying, no, be missional.

Be evangelistic. You know what I'm saying? And that's what people are. we got to realize apologetics is not just about winning arguments. It's literally about winning hearts. Because what Satan wants is for in your, because I'm thinking of people who probably the most wrestle they got is probably with people in their family. You know what I'm saying? And that can be the place where you feel the most irritation because it's just like, Tasha, like why are you, why are you acting like that? Like, why are you? But I think what Satan wants most,

most is for you to respond to sin with sin. That's what he wants. Yeah. And so it's like your irritation, your lack of impatience, you're like all of that. Like you have to, when that comes up, you have to put some boundaries probably around the conversation and be like, you know what, I'm starting to get an attitude. I don't think that's holy. I'm going to go pray.

Can we revisit this? You know what I'm saying? Even that shows somebody humility. Yeah. Where it's just like, oh, I would actually never go pray because I was mad. And so the Lord can use even your honest humility in those moments. But I think just be aware of the schemes of the evil one and be aware of your own flesh. And know like maybe this isn't a conversation I can engage at this moment because I'm going to respond to you crazy.

Yeah, that's good. That's real good. One thing I want to, hold on, let me go to one more scripture. John 16, Jesus is about to die. He's having a conversation with his disciples. Verse one, he says he starts to talk about how the world will hate him. hold that in your mind. The world will hate you. We all think world, we think people at the club, the strippers. That's like that. So-called church folk. He says verse one, huh? A lot of times the world

be like people who we act like Christians, but they're not. Verse one, I have said all these things to you to keep you from falling away. They will put you out of the synagogues. Indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering service to God. And they will do these things because they have not known the father nor me. I think sometimes we assume persecution only comes from the world outside of the church when you also will deal with persecution from the world within the church with people who think they're a part of the church. So with Jesus and Paul, when you read those letters, when you read the Gospels, who is Jesus made beef with? The Pharisees, The Sagittes.

Who was Paul's main beef with? The Jews. Yeah. Like, it wasn't the world who had the biggest issue with the gospel. It was usually people who were still slaves to the world acting like they was Christians that had the biggest beef with the gospel. And dare I say, I think it's the legalist and the people with a form of godliness that are the hardest to reach.

Yeah. Because they are so convinced that they know God and you don't. When you sit in here like, you are, you're, you're more. more blind than the gay person who's submitted to their sexuality because you're less self-aware than they are. Yeah. They haven't been to church

and heard all the things about what they deserve and all the things. They're like, I don't like it, but I get, you over here like, I'm a good person, I tithe. Yeah, that's going to be the hardest persecution that Christians... I've been delivered.

Yeah, because the hardest person to reach is the person who believes that they're blind, believes that they can see, but they're actually real blind. That's the whole end of John Knox. which I love all, I reference that scripture all the time. But it's like, you know, after Jesus healed that man in John 9, the Pharisees asked Jesus, Jesus, what are we also blind?

And Jesus says, no, if you were blind, you would not have no guilt. But now that you claim you see, your guilt will remain. And so because they were so blind, but they convinced people that they see so much, they're the ones who were motivated by the devil to persecute Jesus the most. because they were utterly blind. And now Jesus just healed a man of physical blindness and a spiritual blindness in John 9. And Jesus asked the man that he healed of a physical blindness,

do you know who the son of man is? And the man says, no, I don't know who he is. He wasn't acting like he can see. And so Jesus says, I'm the one you're speaking to. The man who healed you early of a physical blindness is actually the one who wants to heal you now with spiritual blindness. And so Jesus was able to open up that man's eyes

because he wasn't acting like he could see. And so I think that's the problem that we have on social media. You are being persecuted by so many people who are walking around blind, but they act like they can see. And those are the people who are making the response videos, mostly. Those are the people who are attacking Christians. And I'll say those are the people who have a lot of things to say about Christians, but they have produced very little things in the Christian community.

that has been monch, like, like they're not really writing books or... That don't got to be a metric. No, but what I'm saying is when you see, when you see the average person, and I'm talking about, this is my assessment over 15 years, the average person who is attacking people online,

you cannot be really doing a work for the law if that's your main aim, if that's your main goal. Right. And I think a lot of times, throughout the years, I'm not even just talking about us. I've looked and saw certain persecution that some Christians, oh, I felt like done a work for the Lord, are receiving. And I'm like, they've actually done a lot for the body of Christ. And I'm looking at the person that's persecuting them or talking about them.

And they haven't really given anything to the body of Christ except slander, except accusations, except videos. And so I think that's something to look at. Because when you look at the Pharisees, the Pharisees, the Pharisees, you have a lot of really didn't any, they didn't contribute anything to the body of Christ like that. They just contributed like laws, restrictions, you know what I'm saying, rules, but they actually didn't give anything of value in the substance to the body of Christ. So even pay attention to who's producing something for the Lord. Because those who are producing something for the Lord, that's, that's probably the ones that's being attacked. Interesting. Does that make sense?

It does. I don't know if I, I think there's more new. nuance to it, but... Yeah, of course, it's more nuance to it. I'm just saying, not in every case, but what I'm saying is if... Because I say that because there have been a lot of people who have been productive in Christ, and they didn't know them either. So I feel like it's a little more... And I do. That's why I said, like, you got to take it, like, with a, you know...

But what I'm saying is, like, in a situation where, like, the average... Just look at the average time people are being attacked the line. and just look at the person that's attacking and I guess I want to bring it out of online and into local church and relational stuff. Oh, okay. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. If you talk about a local, I think it's different.

I'm just saying a lot of times the persecution does come from people who are not doing anything. Yeah, sure. That's what I'm saying. Sure. Yeah, yeah. I think when I look at Paul and Jesus in particular,

I think when you are being opposed by people, have a form of godliness within church systems and institutions. I feel like there are two categories usually where that opposition will come from, which is when your preaching of the gospel exposes their hypocrisy. And so you see that with Jesus where he's like, yeah, y'all mad at my disciples because they ain't washed their hands and your heart is wicked. Like it's out of, it's out of the heart that defiles a man. Not like what goes into a man doesn't defile him. It's what comes out of him. they got beef with that because they're like they're thinking because I wash hands because I got circumcised because I keep all the laws because I do all the things that that that somehow

dissolves them from the reality that their hearts are a problem yeah and so I think at any point you point you poke at a legalist's actual motives they're not going to like you yeah but two I think they're the theology I I feel like if we do talk about social media I was like I feel like there's a lot of law being masqueraded as holiness. And I think if someone had the audacity to simply say that we are saved by grace through faith alone and to stand tent toes down on that, we're going to be accused of the same things that Paul was. You're giving people license to sin. And he's like, no, you actually don't know the gospel if you think that that's what grace produces.

And so I think when you experience that persecution, I think those are two avenues by which you've poked the bear. Yeah. Is grace and hypocrisy being exposed? Yeah, and I get it. I think we're saying the same thing. I wasn't responded to you. No, I know you.

I know you wasn't. But even when you just talked about legalism, the thing that popped in my mind is when I've, it was a time in my Christian walk when I was, I was legalistic. And in those moments, I produced very little for the body of Christ. Because a lot of my aim was to expose, was to critique. And it wasn't until.

I understood grace for myself where the Lord was able to truly use me. You know what I'm saying? And so I'm thinking like just just know that the person who's often being used to persecute the body of Christ a lot of times are very legalistic and they're being used to actually attack people who are actually free in Christ and producing in Christ

because they're impacting the world. And so I think that we have to understand. Can I push back? Okay, push back. Because I, okay. I don't disagree. I don't want you to be misheard because the assumption can be

that I have to produce a lot to be impactful. And I don't think, I know that's not what you're saying and I know that's not true. So let me clarify. Because a stay-at-home mom is producing a lot.

I know that's what I'm saying. So when I'm saying a lot, I'm not even saying online. I'm just saying an effective Christian. I'm just saying so you could be clear. That's what I'm saying. So even if you're online, or if you're in your local community, right?

Because, and when I, oftentimes, when I think about producing a lot, I'm not thinking about the Jesus who's preaching on a sermon on the mound to thousands of people. I'm actually thinking about the Jesus who's pouring at the 12 men who eventually changed the world. And so, one, like, we have to understand that God does a lot in the, not in the public eye. Right.

And so that's what I mean. I'm talking about just like the enemy wants to affect the effect of Christian. So let me put close on what you're saying. Ultimately, you're saying that... Help me, help me, wife. That there are people within the body, whether online or in local churches, or in local churches who will persecute through criticism, through accusation, through slander, usually guised under some discernment, ministry, or whatever the case may be. And in essence, they are opposing people who are actually fruitful. So that's the distinction is they're hypercritical,

but this person is actually bearing fruit because it's only in Christ that one can bear much fruit. So there's a distinction between do they got a lot to say or do they have a lot of fruit? And that's how we distinguish between who we're listening to. Absolutely. That's what you're saying. Absolutely.

And I think one thing that we have to do online is just developed a discernment to say, what has what has truly been fruitful who is truly being fruitful like like let's stop stop looking at the arguments stop looking at who talks the best stop looking at who can string a video together like let's pay attention to who's actually being fruitful and then we might start saying okay now we can start to identify who's actually being used by the devil that's all i'm saying that if we that if our sermon helps us to recognize fruit good then we can write you recognize who the enemy is using.

Because you will know a tree by its fruited bears. That's in the local community. That's online. And I think we don't know how to recognize fruit, so we don't know how to recognize people who are being used by the devil. And so it's like, okay, like if a Jackie Hill Perry has written a book called Gay Girl Good God,

no, I got to bring you up because we talked about the thread in the beginning of the thing. You literally wrote a book that has broken up same-sex marriages around the world. Why wouldn't somebody say happy pride, Martin Jackie Hill, Perry,

and have all the secular people mad? You literally, God huge you, like, and it's not even to praise you. It's just to say, that's obvious, guys. That's literally obvious. Like, you meet women all the time.

I, like, literally. Again, I don't think people are ignorant of why and how people in the world persecute. I'm saying I think we're ignorant of when that comes up from the church. Can I tell this? Because we don't know that people in the church ain't in the church. Can I tell this story real quick? I'm going to tell the story of what happened just in the conference that I just left.

Actually, the, no, seriously. I'm trying to talk about the legalists. This is so powerful. Okay. I want people to discern legalists. This is so powerful because I think, I think, because the past. pastor who, who church.

And we got Lisa Fields here. We got, move on. The pastor who church that, that, that I was at, he's coming next. He's doing our podcast next.

But I was at this church or whatever, and I was in the hallway, going to the green room, and they walked me up to this lady in the hallway, and they was like, I want you to meet somebody. And so she walked up. She said,

they're going to have to get off my girl, Jackie Hill, Perry. It was real funny. And then I was like, what are you talking about? And then she told me she was talking about the thread. And then she got emotional.

She started to cry. And I'm like, what's wrong? And she was like, nine years ago, seven years ago, I read gay girl, good God, and I broke up with my wife. And I've been in this church ever since. And I just thought that was so powerful. It was very beautiful. You actually hate stuff like this, but I'm like,

yeah. You're overstating. I just kind of feel like that's what I'm talking about. We have to understand it's bigger than you. It's bigger than me. It's bigger than anybody else out here preaching the gospel. the enemy hates the glory of God. He hates the glory of God.

And he hates people who God is used to snatch people out of darkness. And so I think that we just have to remember that, y'all. That's all I'm saying. I want to close and saying that, yeah, anytime you attempt to be a faithful disciple of the Lord, there will be some degree of opposition. And that opposition is something that we leverage to preach the gospel. I think that opposition is something that also God allows to prune us and to disciple us. I've experienced where certain levels of opposition within ministry made me want to stop,

which then reveal that it's like there's parts of me that only want to do it, wants to be faithful when it's easy. And so I think it also prunes selfish ambition and self-centeredness out of you. I'll say all that to say, like, opposition is going to happen, but you got to keep building. And that's why I wanted to turn to Nehemiah, because I think reading Nehemiah has really been helpful for me when it comes to building anything of eternal value while you do that work, you're going to have to face some stuff. And so while Nehemiah and all the people, they over here trying to build the wall back, they got some opposition from Sandball and all these people who don't want them to build the wall back.

because they don't want God's glory to be built back up in Jerusalem. And one of the sentences I love is verse 23 and, no, chapter 4, verse 21. So we labored at the work and half of them held the spears from the break of dawn until the stars came out. I also said to the people at that time, let every man and his servant pass the night within Jerusalem that they may be on guard for us by night and may labor by day. So neither I nor my brothers nor my sons. servants, nor the men of the guard who followed me. None of us took off our clothes. Each kept his weapon at his white hand. That actually ain't even the text I was trying to reference. Ultimately,

you'll find it. While they were building the wall, they were building with one hand and they had a weapon in another hand. And the weapon is not to fight people who disagree. The weapon is not to fight people who don't understand. The weapon is to fight the devil. We fight with spiritual weapons, because ultimately he does not want what you have to offer to work. He does not want what you have to say to reach the people. And so we don't look at people like enemies. We look at people like you just don't see like I didn't see. And so the same grace that I had or the same grace God gave me is the same grace I got to give you.

And so I'm going to work. I'm a work with one hand and I'm a fight with another hand. And so that was it. That's really good. Expect it. Don't be surprised by it. That's really good. I just feel that to do this.

I think we should end because in the beginning we talked about the girl who made the thread I'm going to pray for her only because you know when she made the thread I mean a lot of people kind of start you know riding for you

and everybody didn't respond in the same way and so I think in light of all what we talked about I just want to pray for her and just pray that the Lord would just meet her you know

and so let me just pray real quick dear Lord we thank you Father for your goodness we thank you, God, for your grace and mercy. We just pray, Lord, for the young lady who made the thread. We don't know what motivated her to make the thread. We don't know what she's going through. We don't even know of what was damned to me.

It's true, but we do know that she's made in your image. That before the foundations of the earth that you knew her and probably not knew her in a way that, you know, salvation, but you created her. And so, God, I just pray that you, God, and your sovereignty will meet her. exactly what she is. I pray God that in all of this situation that you would reach her and that this can be turned into a testimony of that one day of your faithfulness and your goodness. I just pray that people who are listening to this podcast will know how to respond to people in the world who are not just responding with persecution or slander, but also they can see the

hurt and the pain, that they would meet people where they're at and respond in a way that's glorifying to you. And it will ultimately lead people. to your fold. And so we love you. We thank you. We believe you for all we have backs in Jesus' name. Amen. With the Perrys is produced by the Perrys with support from Amanda Reed and Channing McBride. Video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley. Edited by the team at Tread lively. Artwork by Hobb. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.