With The Perrys - How to Give the Gospel (Part 1)

Episode Date: September 25, 2023

In our communication of the gospel message, many of us overemphasize the fall, leading the conversation by starting with our sin. We inherited sin, but we were not created to be sinful. It is wiser for us to begin the gospel conversation by communicating the nature of God – “God is good.” Join Jackie and Preston for Part 1 of a conversation on engaging those around us with the gospel, and being anchored in love as we do so. Pre-order Jackie’s book, Upon Waking: UponWakingBook.com What Is the Gospel? (Crucial Questions) by R.C. Sproul Gospel Fluency: Speaking the Truths of Jesus into the Everyday Stuff of Life by Jeff Vanderstelt Romans 1 - 7 for You: For Reading, for Feeding, for Leading (God's Word for You) by Timothy Keller   Take our brief listener survey.  Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, Preston Perry. Hey, Jackie Hill, Perry. So this morning, I really wanted you to be here. I felt overwhelmed and out of control. Wow, what happened? So me and Kim were upstairs recording a promo for my upcoming devotional that will be released October 3rd. You can go to upon wakingbook.com to pre-order. Upon wakening.

Upon waking. Upon waking. Upon waking book.com to pre-order. But anyway. It's a fly behind you. Can I kill it? It's literally right. there.

Got it. I got that joke. This is called a bug assault. It literally kills bugs. Oh, that was so satisfying. Back to God's glory. So, that was a lot. I was overwhelmed.

I was so how I came downstairs to get the book for me to do the promo with Kim or whatever. And what's her name? Sage came over. And she hugged me. And then she was like, oh, I want to see, I want to see doggy. I want to see doggy. And I'm thinking she's talking about Bluey, because they were watching Bluey on the TV. And I come over, and then I hear, I see three dogs.

Oh, wow. We have one dog named December. But there was one of the men and black dogs in here and somebody else's poodle that came through the garage door. And basically they was like, they was running in a circle chasing each other by the butt. And so I'm trying to figure out, because. I wasn't going to pick up them dogs because I don't know what them dogs got. I don't know who those dogs are. They might think that I'm a terrorist or I'm like an enemy so they might bite me.

I didn't want no tetanus shot. I didn't know this what she was referring to. Your mom told me about this. I was like, so what am I supposed to do? So I tried to get snacks. The little dogs, they want no snacks. I'm trying to clap and I'm trying to do all the things. But all they want is December.

So I say, Eden, pick up December and let's just hold December while we go outside. So we go outside. they follow us outside, and then as soon as we get outside, they run back in the garage door. So I got to make sure that Tina then shut the garage door so they can't run back up in the house. And so it just was a lot. And I just felt like if you were here,

you would have been able to manage the situation in a way that was good. But I just, I didn't have. I just would have just picked them up by a little back of the head and just. I don't know. I didn't know what to do. Yeah, because, you know, there's no such thing as bad dogs. Then I'm looking at them.

It's just bad owners. I'm like, do I pray? Like, I just felt like, like, Lord, do I pray? Because the other day, I've been praying about these bugs. I should have prayed about that fly before you tried to shoot it in the back of the head. Because I had got, I had landed and went to my car. I don't know if you know, Atlanta been having a lot of dragonflies. Yes, they has.

It's like, I don't know. They look like, what's those? Teradactals. Yeah, they look like. Yeah, they're huge. Medium teradactals. And it was hovering on top of my car. And I watched it for a minute because I'm like, I'm not walking over there.

I literally said this. I said, Lord, get your creation. And they flew away And they would not come back And then I felt like rest I felt like I can even take my time Because they are his creation Like he could say

He'd say to the wind of the way It's peace be still So he can move these dragonflies Yeah, it'd be a lot of them In the parking lot at the airport too Just that's where I was Oh wow yeah Oh yeah

But yeah man As far as the dogs There's no such thing as bad dogs It's just bad owners And they just Yeah but bad dogs kill people No what I'm saying though They have a good owner

Like we have a lot of people In our neighborhood They just got to tighten up With their ownership With their dogs It's just getting out of hand. What are we talking about? What are we talking about today?

I just asked you. I just asked you. Because you don't know. I do know what we're talking about. We're talking about preaching the gospel, particularly in the culture that we live in. How do we reach the loss? Yeah, big picture.

How to preach the gospel? What is the gospel? How to engage culture with the gospel. Like, great commission, like all the things. Because, I mean, that's what we, that's actually part of why we've been redeemed. is to be ambassadors for Christ. And so I think there needs to be some kind of instruction related to like our role as ministers and what that really means.

You know what I'm saying? Because people are here just winging it. Oh, yeah, for sure. Before we even talk about that, I mean, I think it's important for us to lay a foundation of what is the gospel. I think we hear the gospel presentation all the time, but you can never hear it enough. Right.

When I used to work at this nonprofit, in Chicago. I was, so my job was to interview and manage and lead a bunch of volunteers. And the volunteers were mentors to inner city youth or whatever. And he said inner city youth. I don't even like that term because it just implies a lot of things. But anyway, I had added to the interview process because they didn't have this, but I added to the interview process to question, what is the gospel?

It was astounding to me. how many volunteers who were Christians who I would ask what is the gospel and they could not answer that question. One girl in particular, I said, what is the gospel? And she was like, well, I think I think it's safe to say that the gospel is

like the book of Matthew and Mark and Luke and John. I was like, those are the gospels. Yeah. But what is the gospel that they contain? Right. And she couldn't answer the question. And so I think,

the gospel, not I think, the gospel is the message of salvation and what Christ has done for us. Good news. All the things. Now, how does the gospel begin, though? Because I think... That's a good question.

We have a habit of either going straight to good news but also straight to bad news. But the Bible doesn't actually begin with bad news. No, it doesn't. Yeah, and I'm glad you said that because the gospel story is essentially about the story of God, right?

it starts off for the good God creating his creation and calling it good. I think that's how the gospel starts off. And so I think before we think about the fall of man, right, because I think a lot of times people, the gospel starts off that we fail from grace. And you know what I mean? And it's like, no, it actually starts off with in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth and earth is our form and void

and darkness is over. You know, it starts with off with this creator creating us. And so God created mankind for his glory, for his purpose. And then after that, that's when the news kind of gets bad, not kind of get bad, it gets bad. It gets bad. It gets terrible. When we sinned against God regarding causing.

Horrific, tragic, scary, horrible, insidious, diabolical. Okay. Any more? Discouraging. Sinful. Unrighteous. All right. Lice the inches.

Lice the inches. You're so petty. Go ahead. Yeah, when we're sitting against God in the garden, I mean, causing God in his righteousness to judge the world and judge all unrighteousness, you know, that's when it gets bad. We fail from his grace. We fail from his perfection.

But because he is a holy and a righteous judge, the good news is that he's also a loving God. So he didn't judge the world without first promising to save. And he did so about sending his son into the world who knew no sin to become sin so that we can become the righteousness of God. I want to slow down a bit, though, because you just preach the gospel. Because I think it could be a habit, again, to preach the fall first. And I get it.

It's just like, you know why you need the good news. You know why you need Jesus because you sinned against God. Yes. But sin actually only makes sense up against some kind of communication or instruction about the nature of God. Right. Right. And so it is, it is, it is wiser not to begin the gospel with you are sinful and you are bad, but to begin with God is good. Yeah.

Because you only understand sin when you understand righteousness and holiness, right? Is that you fail from a standard that God has set in himself. Yeah. He's good. righteous and Adam and Eve were too, but they wanted to listen to the devil. And I can understand. Here we go. And I can understand the pressure that sometimes people have because we live, especially

for people who just want to stay true to the gospel and who don't want to be so, like, grace heavy where they don't give truth. It's like, I think sometimes it can be an over emphasis on the fall because so many people lack truth. And so I think the gospel is a beautiful balance of both grace and truth. And so I think we won't, we won't so desperately for people to understand, you are a sinner. You're it is. You're falling.

But it's just like, no, if the Bible message doesn't start off that way, why are you starting off that way? And it undermines God's intentions, though. You know what I'm saying? Because it's really just bad anthropology. It's like we inherited sin, but we were not created to be sinful. Right. Yeah, absolutely. And so what, so what, like the whole idea of the,

even being born again and putting on a new nature is that God wants to redeem and restore his original intention for us. Absolutely. Which is for us to mirror an image him. But even as, you know, as an evangelist and giving the gospel, I used to go to like very atheistic environments or whatever. Atheistic. Come on here.

I like that. You're so crazy. I saw the power in, you know, letting people understand how they were originally created, how we as a creation was originally created. How was it helpful? It was very helpful because I think a lot of times when somebody walk up to a person that's an atheist or agnostic or somebody who's just really cool on God and they understand that I'm a Christian, I kind of can see their eyes and their posture's like, okay, you're about to preach at me, you're about to tell me

how sinful I am. And so one, it shocks them that I, instead of coming for their sin, right away. I tell them, no, that you were created with a purpose, that I don't know you, but I know why you were created. That's good. You were created for glory. You were created by God who has you in mind.

You were created, you know, with a purpose. And because of sin, a lot of us don't know that purpose. But God and His righteousness came to the world to dwell amongst his own creation, to restore us back to our original state. And so I think having a framework of, of how the Bible starts, helps us even in how we evangelize to the world.

It's like, no, a lot of times we can focus on sin and we can miss the fact that God, you know, sent his son to restore us back to what we once were. Does that make sense? And so, you know, I've just found that in my personal opinion to be powerful when people were like, oh, like, no, like this is the reason why, you know, the world is messed up.

This is the reason why, you know, father rejecting me. This is the reason why the church rejected me because, you know, we live in a fallen world, but God wants to restore not only me, but all of mankind. And, you know, and so I think it gives people a better framework of who God is. And when people have a better framework of who God is, they have a better framework of what they're sin. Now, when we say fallen, even words like that have some type of theological context. When you say that, what do you mean? Yeah, we were originally perfect. We were originally, you know, not perfect.

Our first parents. Our first parents. You know, Adam and Eve. And we were created to mirror into image God. And I think what happened in the fall in the Garden of Eden, we felt we became so unlike him because of our sin. And so when it says that every man born after Adam will be born inheriting this particular sin, we were born with this propensity to love the things that God hates

and to hate the thing that God loves. And so I think that's what fallen is to have a fallen nature. Like the fall may humanity become so unlike him, which is the reason why Jesus had to come to be the propitiation for our sins. And so I think that's what, in a nutshell, what being fallen is. What would you say? Yeah, we fell from. a standard. Because I think Romans

is top tier when it comes to understanding the gospel and just kind of even the storyline of humanity. For sure. Because some people were often, I think it can be confusing to even think about

how like, yeah, Adam's sinned. Why is it my fault? Right? Like, why did I have to be considered sinful when he's the one who did? But scripture, I think Romans 5 kind of helps us frame this. Romans 512 says, therefore just as sin came into the world through one man and death through sinned.

And so death spread to all men because all sinned. For sin indeed was in the world before the law. And you da-da-da-da-da-da-d-d-vvvirst 14. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even those who's sinning was not like the transgression of Adam who was a type of the one to come. It's this sense in which there's this theological term for it. I don't remember what it's called. It doesn't even matter.

But it's like if he was our first parent, right, then in the same way that you inherit traits and, you know, ways of being from your father and his father and his father, in the same way, like he was the first human being. So he set the pattern for what the rest of humanity would be like. And so because we come in his lineage, we also inherit his sin.

But we also have this like self-righteousness about us where it's like if Adam sinned, why am I the one judge? It's like, but you're sinning too. Yeah. Right. Like you still choose to sin. And so you still are very much accountable for what you have chosen to do even if you didn't sin in the same way that Adam did.

Yeah, for sure. Does it make sense? It makes a lot of sense. And I think that's, I think, you know, instead of us focusing on Adam, I think it should really make us focus on God because God and his goodness right away. Right away. Planned a way of escape for us. You want me to read it.

Go ahead and read it. That's what it's given. You set me up to read Genesis 3. This is actually, according to theologians, the first preaching of the gospel. Where is it? So it's right after the fall, you know, God, he goes to Adam and Eve. He like, hey, where y'all at?

They're like, we hiding because we were scared. You know what I'm saying? The crazy thing about that text, we should do a podcast on the fall. Because, you know, I teach the fall all the time. I know. But I don't think I've ever done the podcast. Do you remember when we wrote the poem to fall when you was pregnant with our first baby? No.

What about it? So when we wrote the poem to fall, I just remember us reading this over and over. So we'll read and then we go right. That's good. And then we go read and then we go right. I'm so godly. I don't remember that. Yeah, I remember it because.

I was so tired and we had to finish that poem. We had to finish that poem like, you know, like three or four days before we actually had to perform it and so we didn't know it all the way. That's terrible. Yeah. It's bad planning. It is bad planning.

But it was good that we ran back to the text. But yeah. He asked him, where y'all at? They said we hide behind the tree. What people don't realize is that they knew that God had said the day you eat of this tree, you shall surely die. right? And so that there was going to be, there was going to be some consequence, some judgment assigned to them by virtue of them sinning against a just God, right? And so when God walks into the cool of the day in the garden, instead of them going to him for deliverance from the judgment, they hide behind the tree.

And what that means is that they assume that the tree would be some kind of mediator, that the tree could protect them from the judgment to come. And I think that is the beginning. I think that's the beginning of our kind of propensity to look to creation to save us from God. That's good. Instead of going to God to save us from God, which is the gospel. So in Genesis 3, God, he gives curses to Adam, to Eve, and to the serpent. And to the serpent, he says, verse 15, chapter 3, I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. Listen. Listen. You listen?

I'm listening. He, pronoun, shall bruise your head and you shall bruise his heel. I'll read it again. I will put enmity war. Are you read like the Hebrew Israelites? Read? That's what you're supposed to say. I will put enmity between you and the woman. This is God talking to Satan. And between your offspring and her offspring, he shall bruise your head and he shall bruise your head and you shall bruise his heel. I think this ESV is not really getting at what God is saying because he says that technically that the offspring that will come from this woman will not just merely bruise in a way where like I injure you. But if I bruise your head, I break you.

I render you lifeless, ineffective, inefficient, right? And no offspring from the woman was able to defeat Satan because they were just as, not just as sinful. but they were born under a dominion of sinfulness and humanity that didn't allow them to actually have the moral power to defeat Satan. Because why? Everybody was born in sin except Jesus. So Jesus comes.

And we already know that he is obviously the consummate. I don't think consummation is a good word. We know that he's like the promise seed when you get to stuff like Look for. Yeah. Because Jesus, he goes into the wilderness who, Who show up? The devil. And he tempts him with the same stuff.

He came to Eve and was like, hey, don't that look good for food, girl? Where he goes to Jesus and say, hey, I know you hungry. Yeah. Turn those stones in the bread. He trying to get Jesus to sin against God with the stomach. Yeah. But he defeats that and he defeats the whole, like go up on the mountain and throw yourself down. And he defeats the other stuff.

And so now, like, Jesus's victory over sin, his entire life proves that he was the one who had come to crush the serpent's head. Yeah, that's really good. And so, yeah, how would you? I love him. I love him. Y'all love God. I love God. What's wrong with you?

What's wrong with you? I just wanted to know they process of writing that. I love God. You don't love God? What's wrong with you? What's wrong with you? I'm not I love Erica and Tina

I love y'all No those are aunties But I love me some Tina It do feel like an auntie wrote that I don't know If somebody my age What's wrong with you

Maybe it's how she said it What's wrong with you We know them We actually We love them and we know them So we ain't coming for Tina and Erica C-HU What was we talking about?

Yeah and so I was on to ask In light of us kind of laying the foundation of the gospel, how would you say we should give the gospel not necessarily to Christians, a lot of Christians who might listen to this podcast, but Christians, how should Christians give the gospel to the culture around them and the outside world? Well, I will, so I do want to add some clarity to the fullness of the gospel, which is God created us good or created human, he created us with the intention to be good in the way that he created Adam and Eve. They fell from that standard, sin against God, and therefore

God was required to judge them because he's just, right? And then we were born in sin and shaped and iniquity. So we inherited that same propensity and desire to love and want everything other than God. And so the problem is we can't work ourselves into God's righteousness. We can't earn it. There's nothing we can do. And so God and His grace sent Jesus to live the life that we couldn't live and die the death that we deserved. But the gospel doesn't just end with the cross. Yeah. The gospel also has a resurrection attached.

Yeah. Because it means nothing if Jesus just dies. Right. If he just dies, we're still hopeless. If there is no resurrection, we still don't have life. And so the fact that he rose from the dead confirms that the Lord one accepted his death as an atonement as a sacrifice for our sins. But it also shows that he has the power over death.

And so when he then says, come to me, who are heavy laden in it of burden, I get your rest. It's like, no, in him I can have freedom from sin. In him, I can conquer death. In him, I can bruise the head of the serpent, right? But not only that, he also promises his spirit to feel us so that we can walk righteously. And so I think that's a fuller picture of the gospel.

Now, how you engage the culture with that. I think, one, the gospel has to, the gospel really has to be something, how do I say it? it has to define you. You know? Like, I don't think you can engage culture with the gospel if the gospel isn't a part of your own identity. Explain that. Explain what you mean.

So, really practical example, when I started to be disciple, before being disciple, I was probably, I was 19, new to Jesus, and I went to a church, I've said this before, that really esteemed gifts. A whole lot.

And so because I'm gifted, they esteemed me, gave me all this honor, all these things, but they weren't discipling me. They weren't showing me how to read scripture. They weren't showing me how to walk worthy of the calling to which I had been called. And I was struggling just in my mind and my heart with sin and immaturity and lack of wisdom.

And Santoria, when she started to disciple me, I came to her to tell her about how I was struggling with this particular lust issue. And she was like, Jackie, what you need to do is you need to meditate on the gospel. I'm like, what? Because again, I'll come from a context where I think she's going to tell me to fast.

Yeah. To Terry, to go get some hands laid on me, which is helpful. But for her to say meditate on the gospel, that didn't seem like power. Yeah. That didn't seem good enough. And I'm like, why would I do that?

And she was like, because this is what she said. She said, the gospel didn't just save you. The gospel also keeps you. Yeah. You have to continually remind yourself what Jesus accomplished on the cross for your sin, and there is where your power is. And so that's what I mean by it has to define you.

Like if the gospel is not a part of your daily meditation, if the gospel is not a part of how you do life and why you do life, then it's not going to show up in your ministry. It's just not. What's going to show up in your ministry is works. What's going to show up in your ministry is legalism. What's going to show up in your ministry is even the other end of that, which is a licensee just locust.

where it's like God loves us so, you know, we could just kind of do whatever we want to do. The gospel centers you where it's like, no, I've been redeemed by the blood of the lamb. There is grace, but there's also a response to what Christ has done, which is holiness. That's good. That's good.

Because I think what I hear you saying in which I had to fight with early on in my Christian walk is, I think a lot of times some church coaches try to push us to how to obtain a particular power. But it really is about reminding yourself of who has the power and who you are in. Yeah. Because that's what's going to sustain us. Because a lot of times we just lose sight of Jesus that he came and defeated all sin,

that he was the propitiation for our sins, which means... What's propitiation? Propitiation means the process in which God's wrath has been removed from us, right? And so, like, because of our sin and rebellion against God, God's wrath was upon us. And so it isn't that God's stop being loving when we sin. He's always loving, just like the sun is always consistent, right?

But if we go outside and all we see is utter darkness, it isn't that the sun is shining. The sun is consistent. It's always shining. It's just the earth has to rotate, causing the sun to shine on us. And so Jesus being the propitiation for our sins. Why do you get that metaphor?

I ain't never heard you do that. Maybe it's the Lord. You just made that up? No. I'm cutting it too. I thought about it before. But yeah, but that's what propitiation is. It's literally like Jesus being the propitiation for our sins

is a process in which Jesus came, took the full wrath of God, in exchange, gave us his righteousness, and took our unrighteousness, and now God's consistent and holy love as being able to be shifted upon us, taking us out of darkness, and bringing us into its marvelous light.

And so, like, I think when we meditate on the fact that, like, no, who I am in Christ is a position. And maybe I'm struggling in my walk because I have not meditated and reminded myself of who I'm in and who has the power, right? And all power is in the right hand of Jesus.

And so I think meditating on the gospel gives us the confidence to walk righteous and holy before God. I would think that how we read the Bible informs our ability to out. actually meditate on the gospel more often than we do, right? Because I was trained to read the Bible looking for Jesus, looking for what he did, looking for what he accomplished, just with an eye to him. And so when you do that naturally, then you're always going to be pulling gospel into your heart.

You know what I'm saying? Or like even being around people who would like push the gospel in in gospel conversation. So I guess for you, when you were learning how to be a disciple, like what was that process for you of getting the gospel in you so that when you did start to evangelize, it wasn't you trying to preach the gospel. It actually just came out. Well, experience, I feel like, and a lot of times,

is the best teacher. I think a lot of times we kind of get this routine of what we feel like people should need. but for me, it was knowing the gospel, but also being sensitive to the Holy Spirit and what he wanted me to say with each individual. And so I think for me, it was each conversation that I enter. It's like, I know the gospel, but God, what do you want me to say to this particular person? And how do you want me to introduce the gospel? Well, that's a different answer to my question.

Okay, what's your question? My question was, what were, I don't remember, but I was trying to get at what, when you were learning how to be a disciple in your early days, what were the experiences that shaped you to be a gospel-centered Christian? That's what I'm saying. Oh, what were the experience that shaped me to be a gospel-centered Christian? Was it books? Was it you fell in sin? And somebody was like, hey, man, Christ died for you. Yeah, for me, I honestly think, um, um, um, um, you.

just being refined by the Holy Spirit, like the God and his sovereignty allowing me to go through things to seek him in ways that I wasn't seeking him before. So I think sovereignty, but I also think discipleship. I honestly think being disciplesed

would, you know, help me to become a better disciple. Like how I came to Christ, it's just, it's so, it's so, yeah, a lot of times I think people need to see like holy and righteous, you know, examples of strong Christians, but the dude who was disciplining me, I literally saw more failure and through his and through his conviction, it showed me that I wasn't a Christian, right? And so that's how, you know, I became a Christian and being a disciple. Like, you know,

my disciple is telling me like, man, this is how you seek the Lord. This is how you read your Bible. This is how you love your enemies. And so for me, what taught me how to be a good Christian is being around men of God and like literally seeing them doing life. And so I think the scriptures kind of like lay a foundation of how we should do life with people. When Jesus is, when he runs into two of the disciples in the book of Acts, I think, he's walking past John the Baptist with his disciples. And they follow Jesus. And they say, Jesus, where are you staying?

They wasn't asking Jesus where is he staying because they want to see his house look like. Right. They were saying, Jesus, we want to see how you live. And so them following Jesus, them like shadowing Jesus, like literally taught them how to be disciples. And so in Jesus' time, that's actually how people learn, right? Notice how they didn't say, Jesus, where are you preaching that? When is the next conference? They was like, no, Jesus, we want to shadow you to see how you live.

And so that's how I learned how to be a disciple following great men and God. I think that's an excellent pivot into even a conversation about engaging the world around. Like, because, okay, so you have the great commission, right? You have Jesus before he ascends. He comes down. Matthew 28 tells his disciples, hey, by the way, go therefore, make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. And I will be with you always, right?

And so there's this sense in which to be a disciple of Jesus means that you must be going out and making other disciples of Jesus and teaching them to obey everything that Jesus did. But to your point, I think it is so natural for us to think that preaching the gospel is just about giving people instructions when it's actually also inviting people into our world. Because that's what you just said. Yeah. Is that Jesus, what did he say?

They asked him where they live. Yeah, Jesus was walking past and they follow Jesus. And then Jesus turned around and says, what are you seeking? And they said, Jesus, where are you staying? And he says, follow me. Yeah. You know, and so even when you look up where you're standing in the original language is literally saying, we want to see how you live.

Yeah. And so that's how rabbis actually talk in Jesus' day. You know, they followed and they shadowed, right? And so I think in our time, we try to follow disciples by saying, when is your next conference? When is your next event? When is your next IG live? And that's cool.

But you actually need people in your local context, who can invite you. who can invite you into their life because people can teach you theology all day, but we underestimate the power of watching somebody love their enemies. Yeah. We underestimate the power of watching somebody get into an argument with their spouse and then coming back and say, you know what, I'm sorry, can you forgive me?

And so that's what I saw. I saw Brian get snappy with his wife and then, you know, leave with me and then feel convicted. You know, when we out eating and saying, I got to go home and apologize. to my wife. That taught me how to be a disciple. And so he can teach me all the theology in the world, but if you don't have

people in your life walking with you, teaching you how to, how to not just learn theology, but to apply theology. Or vice versa. Because I don't want people to hear you say that engaging

culture is always following somebody. I think that's a factor. But it's also the sense in which we should we should actively be being poured into, but we should be pouring out. Absolutely, yeah. Because I think we're all in a position of process where, like, people can feel like, well, I don't know enough.

Yeah. Right. Like, so what do you even say to that person who is like, I want to fulfill the great commission, but I don't feel like I know enough of what Jesus has said to even go out and make disciples? Yeah. Notice how when Jesus says, therefore, make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

He goes on and said, therefore I'll be with you to the end of the age. This word make implies that it's a process. So I think a lot of times when we think about making disciples, we think about what can I say? What kind of, what's the quickest word I can give to change somebody's heart? But this is like, no, this make means that it's a process. And so like in this process, we have to understand that Jesus wants us to proclaim the gospel, but also Jesus wants us to display the gospel.

And I think displaying the gospel, you don't have to know the whole Bible. You just have to love God with your whole heart, mind, body, soul, and strength to love your neighbor as yourself. Don't underestimate the power of that. I think people really underestimate the power of truly living out of life worthy, right?

And I hear people say, preach the gospel and if necessary use words. I really don't like that saying. Why? Because it implies that, that if we just preach the gospel, if we live a life holy and righteous, we don't necessarily have to proclaim the gospel without words.

No, the Bible says that no man can know God if they don't hear nobody preach, right? And so we need to, like, they need to hear truth in order to change. But I think we should say, live a life holy and righteous in front of people so that when we do preach the gospel, it has more impact. That's good. And so, like, I think having a, yeah,

I think people think that they have to know a whole bunch of information in order to be effective. And it's like, no, the old saints didn't know what presupposition of apologetics was. They didn't know these big seminary words, but they knew how to love God and they knew how to love people. I think a prime example of this is in John Chapp. I want to guess it.

I don't know. I think it's four. It is. Look at that. The woman at the well. When Jesus reveals himself to her as the Messiah, right? She goes, leaves her water jar, goes into the town. And this is all she says.

Hey, y'all, I just met a man who told me everything about me that I ain't never know. You know what I'm saying? Like, I just met somebody who taught. told me everything that I ever done. Many people refer to her as the first evangelist. Could this be? Not he is. Yeah.

Could this be the Messiah? Yeah. It says that they left the town, went after Jesus, and many of them followed him because of her testimony. Notice how simple it was. Yes. And notice that all she was able to share was all that she had at the moment and God still used it. Yeah. And so I think there's some encouragement in saying, no, whatever season you're in and

whatever level of knowledge you have, trust that, like, look at Gideon. That's what God does, is that he does a whole lot with a little. He really don't need you to be this beast of a theologian to use you unless he's calling you to do so. Now, it ain't to say that you don't study your Bible. It ain't to say that you don't get as much of it in you as you can, but it is to say that whatever level of knowledge you have in the moment

is still good enough for God to use. Quick plug, I just finished my book. Okay. Day before yesterday. All right. And literally, like in a nutshell, like it's three chapters that's in my book that's kind of censored around this. It is, I think people think they have to be a jack of all trades. But like we end up being a jack of all trades in the master of none.

And the gospel message is sufficient. It's a story. I don't know where I read it at. But we know the apostle John was the last apostle, living the apostle. And I think it was Stratulian or one of the old church fathers who told this story about how, you know, they would carry John from city to city to church to church and people would flock all over in his old age

to hear John preach. Now this is the man who gave us John. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and the Word was God. Like he literally talked about the Deed of Christ in the Book of John is so deeply steeped in like theological, you know, talks. But they said, like, in his last days of preaching going city to city,

he would literally get up and say, love your God, love your Lord God with all your heart, mind, soul, body, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. And then he would just go around and kiss and hug people. And then he said, one guy who was following him kind of being, like this catty or his like armor bear almost, he asked me, said, why, you know, everybody come and see you, you know, you know, to preach the gospel and hear you, you know, preach a sermon.

And that's all you get up and say. And he responds to say, because if they do that, they have done enough. And I think, I think that shows us that, wow. You can probably hear of Sage. She's okay. She's okay. She's with her daddy. That's my baby.

Say she cries like somebody's snatching one of her toes off her foot. Yeah, I think that shows us. us that the gospel message sometimes we overcomplicated. We really overcomplicated and we give people way much, way more than they need. Now, I'm not saying that we should go around and tell people that, right? But I do think that John in his old life just understood.

Yeah. Just understood that. That's good. Like he sat with it for years and years and years. And it's like everything that I've ever said when I, when I, when I, when I, when I, when I wrote the book of John, was all leading up to these two things. Are you helping people to love their creator

with everything that's in them? And are you encouraging people to love their neighbor as themselves? That's a very encouraging and convicting story. But what's crazy is how much like Jesus that response is. Because even when the disciples, not the disciples, the Pharisees came to Jesus and they asked him like, something about something. We're going to paraphrase this whole conversation.

And he said that the law and the prophets hinge on these two commandments. Yeah. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul and love your neighbor as yourself. That means that Jesus has taken the entire Old Testament and distilled it down into reverence for God and love for neighbor. And according to that story, that's exactly what John just did. Yeah, yeah. And it's cool. Like I think it's cool to give.

I honestly think that sometimes learning a bunch of information. can hinder us when giving the gospel to people. Because I think that we become so consumed in all of the things that's in our mind and all of the things that we kind of rehearse to say that we become unsensitive to what the Holy Spirit wants us to say. So what's the wisdom in that? Because people like me, I'm a nerd, right?

And I'm leaning into academia. Like, I'm getting the masters. I want to get a. a PhD at some point. And so there are some of us, and I think most of us should be more academic in our pursuit of scripture. And so what is the wisdom then in learning all the truth but still engaging people in a way that is wise and winsome?

Yeah, because that makes sense. Absolutely. But by no means of my knocking knowledge and wisdom and being an academic. Like I think all of that is good. Like when I was in seminary, like I learned so much. and I came out like, man, I got so much to give people. And then one of the things that I realized early on is that I knew scripture, but I...

Did you graduate? I did not graduate. How many credit hours you got? I don't even remember. We should research that. Because, you know, if you wanted to finish your degree, you can get your credit hours transferred. Yeah.

You shouldn't waste all that effort. Yeah. You don't want to do that? Maybe. We should pray about it. Maybe. We should pray about it. Yeah.

But one of the things that I learned, what was I saying? You were, you came out with a lot of information. Yeah, I came out with a lot of information, but I didn't know how to, like, the information kind of detached me from people. And I didn't know how to engage with people anymore. And, you know, and I, and that's why I always say that if we find our identity and the information we know, and not the guy, we know we'll end up treating people like projects instead of image bears. And so, you know, when I used to do the event,

You know, of course, for the Legacy Conference, the biggest people I had problems with, you know, when I would lead teams is people who was in seminary or who just finished seminary. Because it was just so, it's so much information and you don't, you miss, you miss things a lot of times when you're giving people so much information and you just miss the fact that they said that the church hurt them. And so a lot of times, for example. Can you share that example when you were watching that thing with. the abortion protester. Absolutely. I was watching an evangelist give the gospel to these women outside of an abortion clinic. And basically they were just saying women should have the right to kill their babies, you know, basically.

And he kind of came out with the gospel message. A lot of the things that he said I agree with, right? When it comes to, you know, life starts at conception. God cares about the babies in the womb. Praise God, right? I agree with those things. but one of the things that one of the ladies said was I was raped. Should I keep my child even though I was raped?

And he was like, yeah, but he responded. I forget what he said, but he said something along the lines is just because somebody's sent against you, you want to send against somebody, you want to send against an innocent baby in the womb. And then he followed that with a scripture. And then she kind of like bucked up against it. He was like, no, I have scripture to prove it.

And he gave it his whole theological response, but what he didn't do is stop and acknowledge the fact that she was raped. He didn't pause and say, I'm sorry. Yeah. He didn't pause and say, you know what? God, God saw you. God cares about you. God knows what you're going through.

And, right? And so that's what I mean by how when we have obtained so much knowledge, right, we can become fixated on the knowledge and we can become unsensitive to what the Lord wants us to say. And so I think there has to be a balance. And so I think what John did at the end of his life, he didn't rest on his knowledge.

He rested on what he felt like the Holy Spirit wanted him to say. And I think knowledge gives us a great framework for God. I think, you know, the Bible says his people perish because of a lack of it. But at the same time, you want to be sensitive to the Holy Spirit. And so there have been times while I've given the gospel. And like somebody said, I worship my ancestors.

And all of these scriptures come, you know, about ancestral worship come up. And then they say something. And I don't end up saying none of that. But I end up addressing what made them be, you know, the root issues. And so I think the Holy Spirit teaches us how to apply the scriptures to the root issues instead of coming with this script because we have all this knowledge in our head. Yeah, knowledge puffs up, you know, but love builds up. And that's what you really saw John displaying in that story that you shared.

It isn't just that he instructed with knowledge or that he leaned into the spirit to give him wisdom, but it was also that he loved because you said that he went down and hug people, right? Yeah. And so it's like, I think love has to anchor how we engage anybody because we're engaging people. people, literally. So like, if I'm called to disciple persons, people, that means that I'm coming into relationships and conversations with a very complex situation.

Like, I have a person who has a past, who has a history, who has a personality, who has experiences that have shaped the way that they understand God, themselves, the world, culture, right? Yeah. And knowledge can make you so arrogant where you assume you know what they need. We know that they need God, right?

Yeah. But there are some, there are particular ways in which we can serve them to get them there. Yeah. Right. And so being curious about what, like even asking them, what do you think about God? Yeah. Instead of just going straight. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah. I remember having this conversation with a student in my class, a fellow student in my class. And he was talking about his father-in-law. And he was saying how his father-in-law is. is a gay man. And he was like, how do I just, how do I help him see that his sexuality is wrong? Like, how do I help him, like, repent of that

and walk righteously? And I was like, well, you know, when y'all sit down open dinner next time, I was like, ask him what he thinks about God. Because you want me to give you wisdom to speak specifically to his sexuality. But the way he walks out his sexuality is indicative of what he thinks.

about the nature of God. Yeah. And so the nature of God is such a big picture thing. I was like, if you understand what he thinks about God, there are all kinds of things that you could address in addition to the sexuality. Does he think that God is just? Yeah. Does he think that he's good?

Does he think that he's creator? Because you could talk about Romans 1 and Leviticus 18 all day long, but if you do not establish the lordship of Jesus Christ, it won't get you that far. Right. And so I just think there's a sense in which we want to give people Jesus but the particular way to get them there takes us being dependent on the spirit

but also being curious about the people that we're talking to. Yeah, and also too, what I hear you saying is we have to learn how to ask good questions. It's imperative. Yeah. Absolutely imperative.

Yeah, when we don't ask good questions, yeah, like, and trust that the Holy Spirit will lead you to ask the right questions. we miss so much. And I think a lot of times we feel like the knowledge that we obtain is sufficient enough to change someone. And this is like, I've given you all of this theology

and you steal. And this is like, no, like God probably wants you to ask a particular question that will spark something. When Jesus walked up and asked the woman at the well, where's your husband, he knew what he was trying. He knew the end goal, right? And so he didn't come up and just start pouring theology on her. He asked her a particular question

to help expose her heart, right? And so I think that's what asking good questions does. It helps people come up with their own conclusions without you being accusatory, without you trying to stuff scripture down their throat. But also, I think it just helps you serve. Like when you ask good questions, you help people to talk. So, and you actually, what am I trying to say?

you help people teach you how to give them the gospel. That's good. Right? And so it's like asking good questions, like literally and then listening when you ask a question. Yeah. Not listening for a response, but listening, it helps you understand what they are so you can serve them better. The curiosity can't be, I'm going to say it this way. Let me say it's real strong.

Curiosity can't be a strategy. Yes. It has to be a sincere desire. Yes. And so when there's, because even Paul says somewhere, like love with sincerity. Like, if it's just a strategy, then you're only asking the question to set them up. Yep. But if it's sincere, it's because you want to know them.

Yeah. Right? Like, I'm not going to ask you how you're doing just to do it. It's how are you? Yeah. And I'm going to sit and wait for you so that I can respond accordingly. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

Because I think when we're both getting at is the, like, how you engage people well, you got to love people. Yeah. Like you just have to. Yeah, absolutely. And I want to say this, like, because I think some people might hear them and say, well, are we doing this to give them the gospel?

Are we trying to, you know, and I do think it's a difference between setting people up so you can give them this pitch or, like, asking questions. So in the end goal, you can give them what they need. And so I do think it's a difference. But I think when we ask good questions, because we, like, truly,

care about people what you're saying and like concerned about their well-being. We will listen and we will respond and like literally serve a need. Because a lot of times, for example, that probably might confuse people. I give you an example. The lady who worshipped her ancestors.

When she told me that she worshipped her ancestors and she was just so rude at first. And I was like, okay, I don't know how to give the gospel to this lady. And when she said she worshipped her ancestors, The thing that popped in my head was, okay, I'm going to Leviticus, I'm going to Deuteronomy. Deuteronomy.

It was so many scriptures that popped into my head. But when I saw that she was rejecting scripture, I felt like the Lord was saying, she knows this. She just hates what she knows. What do you do now? And what I felt like, I felt the Lord, like, leading me to ask her questions. And I was like, why do you have this, this heart? Like, what's there?

I mean, that's when she opened up and said, you know, I was a part of the church, you know, and they, they betrayed me. And I was like, how did they betray you? Well, they told me my molestation was my fault. Oh, okay, you were molested. Okay. How old were you when this happened if you don't mind me your accent?

I was X, Y, Z. Okay, now I can talk to it. So after that, you know, I was like, okay, I'm so sorry that happened. And then she was like, I don't need your, I don't need your empathy. But let me ask you since you were Christian. Was it God's fault? Was it my fault that I was molested?

Because that's what every Christian told me. Right? That's what my old church told me. So was it God's fault that I was molested? Was it God's fault that I didn't have a good relationship with my mother? And I said, Lord, I don't know what to say. Help it. And I remember saying, Lord, help me.

Yeah. And I felt like the Lord was saying, I felt like the Lord said at that moment, share Jackie's testimony. And I was like, you know what? I know you don't want my empathy, but I'm truly sorry, you know. And I want to just tell you about my wife and her experience and what she went through, yada, yada, yada. And I told her about your story. And even though she was, I was a man that couldn't empathize with her in a way that I could because I never went through that experience. She was hard towards me at first.

When I shared your story, she softened up in the way. away. I saw her, I saw her become soft and she was like, I'm sorry that that happened to your wife. I know, I know what it feels like, yada, yada, yada. And then I was able to give her the gospel through your testimony. But I want to tell you about a God who I believe deserve your worship other than your ancestors because look what God did with my wife. My wife has wrote a book called X, Y, Z. God had literally took my wife through all of this stuff, all of this pain, yada, because for his glory. And not only that, he was concerned about my wife.

He saw that happen to my wife. He hated it. And not only that, he hated the fact that that happened to you. God saw that and he was not pleased. And so I was able to give the gospel through your testimony and not just, so what would have happened if I just would have gave her all of the scriptures about, you would have filled her mind and not reached her heart. Absolutely.

I think that's what I'm trying to say. And so the accent, but it only happened because I asked a good question. Yeah. And so, you know. Yeah, I think when you look at, when you look at the Bible, the way God dealt with the prophets, with the people, the way Jesus dealt with the Pharisees, even his own disciples, he asked a lot of questions.

Because questions can also be instruction. And so for me, when I'm disciplining or walking with somebody or even in conversation, like a ministry conversation with some people, I may see or discern something and I will ask them a question to bring them to that point because a lot of times it is better to help people reach a conclusion

than to just teach them the conclusion. That's good. That's really good. Can I ask you a question though, babe? Yeah. What would you say to the people who feel like, who feel this pressure? Because I see this a lot in our society or the last couple of years

who feel like they have to like appeal to the culture in a particular way in order to like give people the gospel. Like they have to like they kind of take that scripture become all things to all men like Paul did as to say, oh, I got to speak their language.

I got to, you know, be like them. You know, that can lean unhealthy in some ways. Yeah, so that's 1st Corinthians 9. That is often referenced where Paul says, to the Jews I became as a Jew in order to win Jews to those under

the law, I became as one under the law, though not being myself under the law that I might win those under the law. Like I become all men to reach all men kind of thing. Paul was very clearly saying that he knows how to navigate certain environments where he will, you know,

how do I say it? Like he would go to the synagogue, he would fast, he would be under certain vows. Like he was still, even though he wasn't under the law submitted to the law, but not under the law, he would still do what the Jews would do who were under

the law. I don't think that makes, it's hard to explain what I'm saying. Yeah, I think what you're basically saying is that he didn't become exactly like them, but he understood the culture that he was, that he was in, in order to reach them.

I think that is different than saying, hey, I don't know how to say it without saying. But just say it. I think that's different than being worldly to reach the world, right? Yeah. Like being carnal or being just highly liberal. I actually think that's unwise. Because what is the appeal of Jesus if we're not walking like Jesus to people who don't know him?

Yeah. Right? Like, how can I tell you about the holiness of Jesus and the righteousness? How can I be a light if I'm not actually being a light? Absolutely. And so it feels like a very, it feels like a very fleshly way to engage people. It does. And to some degree, it feels like a way to please people.

Yeah. It's like, it's a, that might be an assumption, but it feels like, are you a, to actually just be righteous in how you preach the gospel? Like, do you feel like that might, is that intimidating to you? Yeah, I think for some, I think that can be the temptation, but I think for some people, I think some people really think that that's how they reach people. It's kind of like, you know, I have to show them that I relate to them.

But again, that's us putting, that's putting, we're putting too much burden on, I agree. On what we do versus the gospel we preach and the power of God. because at the end of the day, nobody can raise the dead. We cannot raise the dead. If we really believe that an element of the gospel is that we are born in sin, shaped iniquity, and that we are dead in sin, then that means that technically, if God doesn't bless this gospel that I preach,

then people won't raise from the dead anyway. That's good. And so it's like, even when it's talking about curiosity, talking about love, we're called to preach the gospel, but it's the spirit of God that attends the preaching of the gospel to resurrect people. And so I don't think the Holy Spirit is going to bless things that are actually antagonistic to his nature. Yeah, because he's...

And so I'm already putting people in a very bad position to think that, oh, if I engage with you through worldly means that'll draw you. No, he draws people in a holy way. Yeah, that's good. That's good. Because even when we saw Paul engage with culture, like he would do things like quote their poets. Right. But he quoted their poets to point to Jesus. He didn't just engage in all of...

the things that they did so that he can, so he can think, oh, I relate to you now like me so I can give you the gospel. Like, no, like he quoted their poets to say, you know, you guys are worshipping statues and things that can save you, but my God is a God who was not created by human hands, right? And so like, he quoted their poets and he quoted these things to point them to somebody greater. He just didn't come in a, because I tell people all the time, like, I don't believe that God saved me from my culture. I believe that God saved me for my culture to reach my culture. Because culture is not inherently evil, right?

But there are things inside the culture that goes against the nature of God. And so you have to ask yourself, am I engaging in things in the culture that goes against the nature of God so I can seem relatable? Or am I going, am I a part of this culture that God's in his sovereignty, save me from this culture, to go inside of this culture, to redeem certain aspects of the culture so that I can make God look glorious in a sinful world. It's a difference.

Do you think we should do a part too? Because there's still so much to say because I feel like we need to get into the subject of sin. Because we're in a world that it's becoming harder to engage the culture because we have to address things that might get us fired. that might get us canceled, that might have us losing friendships. Like, is there a way to address sin and wrath that is still gospel-centric?

So you're trying to say we need to do a part two? I feel like we have to. Okay, part two. Because what's going to happen is we're not going to get to some of the issues that are existing as people that's engaging without talking about sin. Part two. Coming up. Peace. With the Perrys is produced by the Perrys with support.

from Amanda Reed and Channing B. McBride. Editing by Xavier Fairley, video recording and audio production by Kim Powell, artwork by hop, and music by swoop. If you'd like to support The Perrys, you can visit the link in the show notes. This is with the Perrys. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.